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elZorro
10-09-2015, 06:15 PM
Daytr: I think Moreau encapsulates the Winston Peters argument: it's not so much policy, as a way of getting the press response: Note the black and white panels? Brilliant. It's not so clear-cut.

SMEs, especially in the provinces, will be the first sign of a worsening economy in NZ. Lower interest rates today being forecast as a result of the Reserve Bank lowering of the OCR, but from my point of view they are already low, I have paid over 20% p.a. before.

Will I go out and mortgage myself to the hilt, just because I can? Because John Key says I should? No, I'm going to hunker down, just like everyone else. OK, I might have a go at a very good project, but I will try to use other people's money.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1509/S00326/smes-seeing-first-signs-of-slowdown.htm?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+10 +September+2015

Snow Leopard
10-09-2015, 06:52 PM
I am a New Zealander, I am not an immigrant. I was born here.

westerly

I am a New Zealander, I was not born 'here' and I currently do not live 'here'

But I AM A New Zealander.

neopoleII
10-09-2015, 07:37 PM
""Regarding rubbish, have you ever tried to cheaply and correctly dispose of a reasonable quantity of used Li-Ion or NiMH batteries in NZ? It's not possible at the moment. The Ministry for the Environment are 'looking into it', according to this Auckland Council information sheet. ""

with our used batteries..... we take them to our local ITM and trade them in when we get new ones.
not sure if they take "quantities" but we dont buy quantities of batteries in one go..... just replace as we need them.
never had an issue.

elZorro
10-09-2015, 08:01 PM
""Regarding rubbish, have you ever tried to cheaply and correctly dispose of a reasonable quantity of used Li-Ion or NiMH batteries in NZ? It's not possible at the moment. The Ministry for the Environment are 'looking into it', according to this Auckland Council information sheet. ""

with our used batteries..... we take them to our local ITM and trade them in when we get new ones.
not sure if they take "quantities" but we dont buy quantities of batteries in one go..... just replace as we need them.
never had an issue.

Thanks Neopole, I have 30-60 kg of them, there was an outfit in Christchurch who previously offered almost the cost of the freight for scrap, but they've stopped doing it.

elZorro
11-09-2015, 06:39 AM
Solid Energy, the SOE that lost the support of a government, is to be dismantled and sold off to repay just 30-40% of its debts. One overseas bank assumed their loan to Solid Energy was govt guaranteed. I bet most of the banks did.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11510948

Daytr
11-09-2015, 06:40 AM
Which party? Ideas mean nothing... haha
Even your ideas have value as do everyones.


So daytr, have you managed to get any of your ideas adopted as party policy? If not, they mean nothing.

And I heard Mr Woodhouse say on the radio just what I said about 50% unemployed. Agree there may be interpretations of that number, but that is what he said.

Daytr
11-09-2015, 06:53 AM
So Bill English wakes up to the fact that the Auckland property market is on fire. His words.
But apparently its not a bubble? So its on fire, suggesting its out of control, but its not a bubble!
Perhaps its what they describe is a control burn. Yeah right!
The RBNZ sees it as a major risk to the NZ economy.
And yet no change to the level of immigration, no change to foreign buyer rules other than they will now need to provide an IRD number and be on a list. Ooooh!
National are like rabbits in the headlights, too scared to move.
They have let this happen, now that its gone to a level that anyone with an ounce of sense is saying is unsustainable (except real estate agents!) and will likely crash.
If they make the changes now they should have made a few years ago they are likely to trigger a collapse.
So best not do anything, cross fingers & hope for the best.
National policy management at its best.

craic
11-09-2015, 07:42 AM
Your skill and knowledge of the NZ economy is wasted Daytr. Several major parties fail to implement it and you are casting Pearls before Swine. Or maybe you are talking a load of rubbish crippled by a level of political bias that is rarely seen outside north Korea? Maybe I am just one of the fools who follows the herd but at least John Keys position as the most popular national leader will not cause ME ulcers. I will eat well, sleep well and enjoy the sunshine when it arrives but today I will replant my rhubarb, check the brews n the shed, replace a sliding door that refuses to slide for my wife and deliver my words at the funeral of a veteran and call at the RSA and have a pint and then come home, and as a good capitalist, have crack at trading my way to a few bob on the market

artemis
11-09-2015, 09:07 AM
Which party? Ideas mean nothing... haha
Even your ideas have value as do everyones.

In practice, if ideas are not adopted by someone who might be able to implement them, they are just talk. I suppose talk has some value though as contribution to debate.

Daytr
11-09-2015, 10:52 AM
Well ideas are generally just that & are discussed and good ideas hopefully influence policy over time.
I would like to be challenged on any of my ideas and how they are bad for the average New Zealander, the economy, the environment or humanity in general. Unfortunately National fails in a lot of those areas, but in the world of consumerism and short termism, a lot of people don't care about what we are doing for the next generation or the environment. As long as their pocket is being lined, it all ok. My pocket is also being lined, however I am happy to forego some of that if it means doing the right thing. However with the right policy more people's pockets will be fuller & there would be a better wealth distribution which in turn would be a far greater growth engine for the economy than a concentration of wealth in the top percentage.

The top 1% of the wealthiest people in the world have approximately half the world's wealth.
In the US in 1980 the top 1% had around 8% of the share of the country's annual income.
In 2012 this had increased to around 21%. Double any other nation besides Singapore, which is in 2nd place.
So of all income generated in the US 21% and climbing goes to 1% of the population.
In NZ in 1980 it was around 6% and in 2012 around 9%, but since 2012 it has grown substantially.
Key is taking us down an American model of privatization where corporations run governments & will have a major influence on policy.
I wonder why...

From Forbes magazine on a report from Oxfam that surveyed many of the top world economies.

"Additionally, the report says that high levels of wealth concentration can harm democracy and reduce equal opportunity, as the wealthy begin to have an undue influence on government policy making: When wealth captures government policymaking, the rules bend to favor the rich, often to the detriment of everyone else.


In practice, if ideas are not adopted by someone who might be able to implement them, they are just talk. I suppose talk has some value though as contribution to debate.

Daytr
11-09-2015, 10:54 AM
Hey Craic, do you know the price of fish?


Your skill and knowledge of the NZ economy is wasted Daytr. Several major parties fail to implement it and you are casting Pearls before Swine. Or maybe you are talking a load of rubbish crippled by a level of political bias that is rarely seen outside north Korea? Maybe I am just one of the fools who follows the herd but at least John Keys position as the most popular national leader will not cause ME ulcers. I will eat well, sleep well and enjoy the sunshine when it arrives but today I will replant my rhubarb, check the brews n the shed, replace a sliding door that refuses to slide for my wife and deliver my words at the funeral of a veteran and call at the RSA and have a pint and then come home, and as a good capitalist, have crack at trading my way to a few bob on the market

westerly
11-09-2015, 10:58 AM
I am a New Zealander, I was not born 'here' and I currently do not live 'here'

But I AM A New Zealander.

" With pokarekare ana playing in the background and ferns moving in the breeze " You must be homesick for here PT :)

westerly

craic
11-09-2015, 11:03 AM
Ask him. He probably posts on here somewhere still. As to the flippered kind, I have an electric Kon Tiki - It's called self sufficiency.

Daytr
11-09-2015, 11:17 AM
I call it cheating. ;-)


Ask him. He probably posts on here somewhere still. As to the flippered kind, I have an electric Kon Tiki - It's called self sufficiency.

elZorro
11-09-2015, 12:39 PM
Ask him. He probably posts on here somewhere still. As to the flippered kind, I have an electric Kon Tiki - It's called self sufficiency.

Hey Craic, let me guess, your one has an automatic compass so it keeps going out straight? True Blue.

craic
11-09-2015, 02:23 PM
No automatic compass, just my good sense of direction. The one time it defied me and took off down the coast in the breakers, I pulled it in after twenty minutes with the most fish I had ever caught.

elZorro
11-09-2015, 07:44 PM
No automatic compass, just my good sense of direction. The one time it defied me and took off down the coast in the breakers, I pulled it in after twenty minutes with the most fish I had ever caught.

Yeah, well, it probably headed left that time..:)

craic
11-09-2015, 08:17 PM
It was actually right towards the South Island ( where there be pirates)










islandowards

elZorro
11-09-2015, 09:24 PM
Ah yes, I see what happened.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11428150

elZorro
13-09-2015, 05:14 PM
Fell over this article in another forum about John Key's involvement in the precursor to the GFC, and what he's been up to since.

http://evolutionnews.co.nz/news/pm-john-key-played-a-large-part-in-the-global-financial-crisis/

Would be worth fleshing this out a bit:

Merrill Lynch (the firm that had employed John Key in senior positions) was broke by 2007, and was sold to Bank of America. In turn BoA was bailed out by the government. Toxic derivatives put in place and held internally a few years earlier were at the core of the problem, and it was a team working under John Key that devised what looks like the precursors of them, in the late 1990s.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40795080/ns/business/t/how-merrill-lynch-bankers-helped-blow-their-firm/#.VfUU8JXou00

John Key seems to have become less vocal on the idea of building a tax haven for overseas investments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqfA3wQxYE)here in NZ, partly because the meddlesome MED people put up a few roadblocks not long after he got into power.

John found a work-around? (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1311/S00128/foreign-trusts-earn-new-zealand-tax-haven-status.htm)

craic
13-09-2015, 09:38 PM
And not a word about the implosion of the UK Labour party. Or maybe an ultra-left Labour party here is the key to the next election?

Daytr
14-09-2015, 06:10 AM
Well Craic, it does seem a time for extremes unfortunately, none more apparent than the current National government.
I wonder did NZ elect a PM last November or a corporate raider?

craic
14-09-2015, 07:08 AM
I think I'd rather have a corporate raider than the collection of Morris Dancers that have led Labour lately.

Sgt Pepper
14-09-2015, 11:33 AM
[QUOTE=craic;590955]I think I'd rather have a corporate raider than the collection of Morris Dancers that have led Labour lately.[/QUOTE

Craic
I think of the following when listening to John Key.

“In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.”
― Napoléon Bonaparte (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/210910.Napol_on_Bonaparte)

jonu
14-09-2015, 11:47 AM
[QUOTE=craic;590955]I think I'd rather have a corporate raider than the collection of Morris Dancers that have led Labour lately.[/QUOTE

Craic
I think of the following when listening to John Key.

“In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.”
― Napoléon Bonaparte (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/210910.Napol_on_Bonaparte)


Dear Sarge,

John Key can rightly be called all manner of things (not all of them flattering), but I don't think stupid is one of them. The left would do well to remember this.

On a different note I find it refreshing the English Labour party has voted in a true leftie as leader, rather than the centrist positioning that has become the world wide standard. It will be interesting to see if this is a trend or in isolation. I have never been comfortable with the surge to the right (in economic terms) by the left here and in Britain. It served them well in terms of gaining power, smudging the differences and leaving the right wing the option of going further right or scrapping over the middle, but I don't think it has given us as voters much genuine alternative.

craic
14-09-2015, 04:04 PM
I love other peoples cliches, as you do Sgt. But as far as the Labour debacle is concerned I prefer Winston Churchill's "That's the first time I have seen rats swimming towards a sinking ship"

winner69
14-09-2015, 04:57 PM
Dear Sarge,

John Key can rightly be called all manner of things (not all of them flattering), but I don't think stupid is one of them. The left would do well to remember this.

On a different note I find it refreshing the English Labour party has voted in a true leftie as leader, rather than the centrist positioning that has become the world wide standard. It will be interesting to see if this is a trend or in isolation. I have never been comfortable with the surge to the right (in economic terms) by the left here and in Britain. It served them well in terms of gaining power, smudging the differences and leaving the right wing the option of going further right or scrapping over the middle, but I don't think it has given us as voters much genuine alternative.

I think a lot of the overwhelming support for Corbyn is a sign of a growing discontentment / mistrust of the political scene in general and how politicians currently behave. Maybe there is momentum building (globally) to demand more authenticity from our politicians.

Daytr
14-09-2015, 05:40 PM
Well said Winner!


[QUOTE=jonu;590969]

I think a lot of the overwhelming support for Corbyn is a sign of a growing discontentment / mistrust of the political scene in general and how politicians currently behave. Maybe there is momentum building (globally) to demand more authenticity from our politicians.

elZorro
14-09-2015, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=jonu;590969]

I think a lot of the overwhelming support for Corbyn is a sign of a growing discontentment / mistrust of the political scene in general and how politicians currently behave. Maybe there is momentum building (globally) to demand more authenticity from our politicians.

I had an Aussie mate comment much along the same lines, W69. I see Abbott is in trouble from his own team, today. How about that BP and Craic? Crosby-Textor can't fix everything.

Anyway, I see the fortunes for the NZ Labour party picking up later on this year, as the tide goes out on a National Govt.

Daytr
14-09-2015, 06:20 PM
Great speech by Turnbull. Now there is a Liberal I would vote for.
He mixes entrepreneurship with a social conscience.
I like the bit about the different style of leadership, "that respects the people's intelligence, explains why things need to be done & makes a case for it.
We need advocacy, not slogans, we need to respect the Australian people".

Something Key could learn from!

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/liberal-leadership-malcolm-turnbull-to-challenge-tony-abbott-20150914-gjm74c.html

elZorro
14-09-2015, 06:56 PM
Of course Mark Textor is Tony Abbott's chief strategist. So there will be plenty of slogans supplied.

Audrey Young has a fairly balanced and positive article on Andrew Little, and Labour Party progress.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11511627

Daytr
14-09-2015, 08:37 PM
Flag the $26M vanity project!

What a debacle the whole thing has been.
Coat of arms also has the flag in it so that will have to change, but that would be years after, if there is a yes vote.
Meanwhile we are struggling to fund so many of the social programs or take in more refugees!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11485305

Major von Tempsky
14-09-2015, 08:46 PM
Well said Winner!

[QUOTE=winner69;591024]

This is Corbyn's high point, his maximum, his apogee. A brief moment more as he appoints a shadow Cabinet missing most of the leading Labour Party MPs and then - From then on it is all downhill for him.

This "overwhelming support" for him is a tiny fraction of the British electorate and less than half of the Parliamentary Labour Party. They will wait as the gloss increasingly comes off Corbyn with closer inspection and demoralization sets in with the polls more and more against him. Then he will be dispatched in about 6 months with a quick stab in the back by the Parliamentary Labour Party to the cheers of the media.

winner69
15-09-2015, 04:15 AM
This is Corbyn's high point, his maximum, his apogee. A brief moment more as he appoints a shadow Cabinet missing most of the leading Labour Party MPs and then - From then on it is all downhill for him.

This "overwhelming support" for him is a tiny fraction of the British electorate and less than half of the Parliamentary Labour Party. They will wait as the gloss increasingly comes off Corbyn with closer inspection and demoralization sets in with the polls more and more against him. Then he will be dispatched in about 6 months with a quick stab in the back by the Parliamentary Labour Party to the cheers of the media.

Thought you would be hoping that Corbyn stays a bit longer ....maybe the Rights last chance to kick socialism into touch for all time .....failed so far haven't they?

elZorro
15-09-2015, 05:45 AM
You can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Colin James has a good article that hits the spot, with his thoughts on the 2017 election race.


Flag Key away? Not yet. It depends on Labour

John Key has now twice been a figure of international fun. First, for ponying around. Now for his flag.

The Economist, a cheerleader for Key's sort of economic policy, scoffed last Friday that "farce barely describes the process" for choosing a flag. "Many voters ... find it distasteful that their country is being rebranded like a sagging brand of detergent."

In short, a flag is not a brand. It is symbol which over time comes to signify national heritage, history and culture.

The Southern Cross symbolises our southern-ness. The Union Jack symbolises Key's beloved monarchy and our long-past history as part of an empire.

There has long been a case for a symbol of the independent, bicultural not-British nation we are now -- but done properly, not a slick "rebranding" a la Spark, and reflecting deeper constitutional change (which the country is not yet ready for).

Key has an incomplete sense of history, heritage and culture. He once (in)famously said New Zealand had not had a civil war.

He also did not grasp the international and domestic political dimensions of the refugee torrent earlier this year. His sudden flip last week looked like a Crosby/Textor moment.

So a year on from his extraordinary third election win his macro-personality is fraying a little. A flag "no" vote would fray it some more.

Add that to an economic slowdown and rising unemployment. A fourth win is looking less sure.

It is not clear yet whether the sharp negative turn in economic sentiment is measuring general bad news people are hearing or a change in their expectations for their own futures. If the latter, the polls will shift in six months or so.

So National's continued strong average of 47.6% in four polls in August needs to be qualified. A couple of points drop would focus on Winston Peters as a fourth-term prop. New Zealand First has not yet levered Peters' Northland by-election win into a nationwide provincial surge but in August it was holding steady at 7.6% which is not bad in a non-election year.

The bigger question is whether Labour and the Greens can climb out of their trough.

Attractive, modern new co-leader James Shaw has yet to kick up Green support. In August Greens were still around their 2014 election score.

And Labour? Will languishing Labour be Key's best bet for a fourth term?

In August Labour averaged 30.3% -- close to where it was in February and only 5% above its election disaster. Andrew Little has not fired Labour up the charts. Contrast Labour's average 16% lead over National 12 months into National's 1996-99 third term and National's 5% lead over Labour a year into Labour's 2005-08 third term even when still under Don Brash's broken leadership.

Is something going on in Labour behind the scenes that might click next year?

There has been some organisational tightening, to improve linkages between the MPs and the wider party and between the leader's office and the party head office through a leadership group. President Nigel Haworth insists there is a "degree of coordination that wasn't there before".

Fundraising, bitingly criticised by some MPs in last year's campaign, is ahead of the plan set after the election reviews, Haworth says, and is to be revised up. Campaign procedures have been a focus, including resourcing regional "hub" organisers and sharpening ways to identify voters to target.

Haworth also says the party is widening its pool of support. Grant Robertson glumly said just after the election that Labour was not "part of the communities we live in". Labour doesn't have enough members or vocal sympathisers spreading the message out and feeding messages back in.

Many joined or rejoined as members for the 2014 leadership contest but now Labour has to re-enrol them. There has been some involvement of volunteers and wellwishers who don't want to be members but collaborate on specific issues. Social housing in Wellington is one.

Business is also much more interested, sensing a possible change of government and so policy. Little, who as a practical union boss dealt with many in business, has hosted get-togethers. Robertson has a number of key businesspeople advising his "future of work commission", which has now produced four discussion papers and will in February outline a policy "direction of travel" toward policy later in 2016.

So far policy has been more "no" than "yes", much of it asserting national sovereignty more strongly than since 1984 in the context of foreign investment and trade policy.

The litmus test of the party's modernising -- or not -- will be whether the policy platforms as they emerge next year are evidence of new thinking focused on outcomes (in the manner, if not the detail, of today's compendious Productivity Commission social services report).

Another test will be close collaboration with the Greens built on the recent warming of personal relations.

The point for Little is that a three-term government needs deep foundations. A fraying Key would not be enough.


Colin James, Synapsis Ltd, 04-384 7030, 021-438 434, P O Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141,
ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000076/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), website www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000076/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

Daytr
15-09-2015, 06:39 AM
Key at his slippery best.
Key wants Labour to bring a law amendment so Red Peak flag can be included.
He has the gall to have a swipe at Labour in regards the whole flag debate & then wants them to fix what he has completely botched!
The only reasons he wants Labour to do this is then its not him who admits the process has been rushed & is wrong & that if Red Peak is included their would be a higher turnout in the first referendum. And he calls Labour disingenuous!
The man is more slippery than an eel!

Major von Tempsky
15-09-2015, 07:43 AM
Who cares? What a storm in a tea-cup. Hyperbole, just like your description of "Sheepgate" which the voters have shown in several polls they are not interested in.

The flag change will fail, beaten by an unusual combination of the right wing of the National Party/RSA, the Labour Party and Greens plus apathy and inertia.

You should have a little lie down with a nice cup of tea.

craic
15-09-2015, 08:18 AM
Have a read of the UK Daily Mail on line and you will easily see why their Labour Party has committed political suicide. I'm sure there are other points of view but this is hard to believe.

craic
15-09-2015, 08:24 AM
Who cares? What a storm in a tea-cup. Hyperbole, just like your description of "Sheepgate" which the voters have shown in several polls they are not interested in.

The flag change will fail, beaten by an unusual combination of the right wing of the National Party/RSA, the Labour Party and Greens plus apathy and inertia.

You should have a little lie down with a nice cup of tea.

Don't overestimate the role of the RSA in this debate. Most successful RSA's now have a small core of Returned/Service members and masses of social members - that was the only way to survive and as an active member, Service, I am sure that many like me are happy with a change from the pseudo Australian flag.

janner
15-09-2015, 09:20 AM
the pseudo Australian flag.


The NEW ZEALAND flag came first.. Nothing pseudo about it ..

Daytr
15-09-2015, 09:47 AM
Its not my description of Sheepgate its the view of many & the Auditor General doesn't investigate "a storm in a tea cup". However if you think corruption in politics is nothing to be concerned about that says more about you than anything else.
Its not like McCully doesn't have form!

I don't know if the flag change will fail or not, I hope it does.
So again you don't seem concerned that Key will have squandered $26M of tax payer money on a vanity project.


Who cares? What a storm in a tea-cup. Hyperbole, just like your description of "Sheepgate" which the voters have shown in several polls they are not interested in.

The flag change will fail, beaten by an unusual combination of the right wing of the National Party/RSA, the Labour Party and Greens plus apathy and inertia.

You should have a little lie down with a nice cup of tea.

macduffy
15-09-2015, 09:49 AM
Not strictly "If National wins......."

- but I couldn't resist posting the link to this photo!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3233897/Meet-Team-Corbyn-Left-winger-boasts-unifying-new-shadow-cabinet-sparks-row-giving-women-s-jobs-senior-roles-jobs-boys.html

Sgt Pepper
15-09-2015, 10:04 AM
Who cares? What a storm in a tea-cup. Hyperbole, just like your description of "Sheepgate" which the voters have shown in several polls they are not interested in.

The flag change will fail, beaten by an unusual combination of the right wing of the National Party/RSA, the Labour Party and Greens plus apathy and inertia.

You should have a little lie down with a nice cup of tea.

It is true that Sheepgate may not be on the mind of voters Major. That observation is of no consequence. The fact is that Sheepgate is very actively on the mind of the Auditor General. Who knows where her investigation may lead to. Serious Fraud Office/ Police investigation ?? Should that be the case I look forward to you defending the indefensible.

Sgt Pepper
15-09-2015, 10:10 AM
You think so?? Well I was in the Territorials for 14 years (Artillery) and I cant say there is much enthusiasm for John Keys vanity project that I can detect

Sgt Pepper
15-09-2015, 10:16 AM
Don't overestimate the role of the RSA in this debate. Most successful RSA's now have a small core of Returned/Service members and masses of social members - that was the only way to survive and as an active member, Service, I am sure that many like me are happy with a change from the pseudo Australian flag.


Craic
You think so? Are you really sure? I was in the Territorial Army for 13 years (Artillery) and I can detect no enthusiasm for John Keys $26million vanity project at all.

Sgt Pepper
15-09-2015, 10:33 AM
Do people think Tony Abbot will be entitled to a substantial refund from Mark Textor this morning? Makes you think what sort of refund John may get in 2017 or earlier.

Major von Tempsky
15-09-2015, 02:06 PM
I am concerned that Key is squandering $26 million on a putative flag change but in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny drop in a large bucket.

And compared to Labour's tax more, borrow more, spend more....

He has been, and is, and will continue to be, an excellent PM with (which really infuriates Labour) the common touch and I'm glad to see that Malcolm Turnbull wants to emulate him and thinks he has been an excellent PM.

Daytr
15-09-2015, 03:22 PM
You are confused MVT & for a so called economist not knowing when Government debt is rising or falling & who was responsible I would say is a fairly Major failing... (see what I did there?... ;))

Labour reduced Government debt, National have trebled it.
National have broken their own record for consecutive deficits.

Tax, more, borrow more & spend more.
You should be happy as its obviously what you want, as that's what National have done for the last seven years straight!

Key does have a touch, but its typically young girls ponytails he can't keep his hands off.


I am concerned that Key is squandering $26 million on a putative flag change but in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny drop in a large bucket.

And compared to Labour's tax more, borrow more, spend more....

He has been, and is, and will continue to be, an excellent PM with (which really infuriates Labour) the common touch and I'm glad to see that Malcolm Turnbull wants to emulate him and thinks he has been an excellent PM.

craic
15-09-2015, 03:55 PM
Closer to the next election I intend to offer substantial wagers on John Key remaining in parliament AND winning the next election. This based on the reality that JK is the most popular leader in the country and that his party is seen as the most effective in NZ and is envied in much of the western world, particularly where JK is often seen as an example to follow. Now I know, Daytr that this makes your blood boil, but backing losers all the time is very bad for your health and derision of the Major and others will not help. (Disclosure. Made fifteen dollars on the horses on Sunday and last night got a ring to tell us that we had won tickets to RNZ Ballet's A Midsummers Nights Dream).

Major von Tempsky
15-09-2015, 04:03 PM
One should read this - this is hilarious, I'm still laughing!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11863755/Chaos-behind-Jeremy-Corbyns-reshuffle-revealed.html

Daytr
15-09-2015, 04:03 PM
It doesn't make my blood boil at all. It fills me with pity.
And just to be clear Craic, I backed the winner in the last election in Northland. Winston Peters & NZF.
So you obviously aren't that confident, otherwise you would place your bet now ! haha

What is your definition of more effective? More effective at what?
Borrowing money? Selling assets? Creating scandal after scandal?
Please tell me what they are more effective at? Inflating property bubbles in Auckland perhaps?

I would suggest the Western World envied us even more when our debt was less than 1/3rd it is now.
When I lived overseas, Helen Clark was held in very high regard & obviously still is at the UN.

westerly
15-09-2015, 05:38 PM
One should read this - this is hilarious, I'm still laughing!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11863755/Chaos-behind-Jeremy-Corbyns-reshuffle-revealed.html

Major, The Guardian also had this.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/14/jeremy-corbyn-austerity-labour-leader-economy
Dirty politics in NZ will be a friendly jest between friends compared with what your mates will throw at Corbyn to discredit him.

However a recent poll showed a majority wanted to raise the maximum tax rate to 75p
No wonder the right is frothing ;)

westerly

Major von Tempsky
15-09-2015, 09:18 PM
The New Statesman had this to say today "Can Jeremy Corbyn and Labour MPs learn to get along?


The leadership candidate has the declared support of just 15 MPs. Both sides are preparing to enter what feels like an alternate universe. " :-)

There have also been a number of comments in the British news media and pollies that Jeremy Corbyn has not proposed any new policies. He is simply proposing policies that have already failed in the 1940s and 1950s.

craic
15-09-2015, 09:31 PM
OK daytr place your bet - you have labor as the winner and John key as the loser at the next election, Place your wager - put your money where your mouth is - I would love to take your money






It doesn't make my blood boil at all. It fills me with pity.
And just to be clear Craic, I backed the winner in the last election in Northland. Winston Peters & NZF.
So you obviously aren't that confident, otherwise you would place your bet now ! haha

What is your definition of more effective? More effective at what?
Borrowing money? Selling assets? Creating scandal after scandal?
Please tell me what they are more effective at? Inflating property bubbles in Auckland perhaps?

I would suggest the Western World envied us even more when our debt was less than 1/3rd it is now.
When I lived overseas, Helen Clark was held in very high regard & obviously still is at the UN.

craic
15-09-2015, 09:46 PM
Go outside of this country and ask who Helen Clarke is and the most common response will be Helen Who?

elZorro
15-09-2015, 10:27 PM
Go outside of this country and ask who Helen Clarke is and the most common response will be Helen Who?

Helen Clark. No "e". That's why your google search didn't pick up anything maybe. But I think she has a page or two on Wikipedia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Clark)

Daytr
16-09-2015, 06:17 AM
Craig, its you who wants a wager, not me. And for the umpteenth time I didn't vote Labour.
As I lived overseas for the entire Clark reign I don't need to, I am very aware how well respected she is/was.

elZorro
16-09-2015, 06:38 AM
Daytr, remember the Amanda Bailey case? While Mr McCready's court action against John Key was dismissed, he's still filing under the human rights act. Amanda Bailey is not helping at this stage, and she is understood to have settled with the Cafe's owners for her treatment while working there. So whether it was their money, John Key's money, or even a promise of continued celebrity patronage, it's still grubby.

I think Labour have been gagged in some way over the issue, it has been let go too easily. An interesting snippet I heard, and I don't know if it's correct because it was third party, but each side in the house has dirt on the other, and it results in a kind of détente regarding most personal issues. It'll be up to private people outside the party to push any case forward.

http://yournz.org/2015/07/24/amanda-bailey-not-taking-legal-action-against-key/

jonu
16-09-2015, 07:24 AM
I think Labour have been gagged in some way over the issue, it has been let go too easily. An interesting snippet I heard, and I don't know if it's correct because it was third party, but each side in the house has dirt on the other, and it results in a kind of détente regarding most personal issues. It'll be up to private people outside the party to push any case forward.

http://yournz.org/2015/07/24/amanda-bailey-not-taking-legal-action-against-key/


I suspect this is usually the case in the House El Z, and probably goes across cultures and history.

I'm aware that National had some serious dirt on Labour and that Helen Clark was pulled into the thick of it to clean up the mess (she wasn't the instigator) while she was PM. The situation had a direct impact on me and at the time I was hugely frustrated that National didn't take them to the cleaners. The only plausible reason was that Labour also had dirt on National. It was an eye opener to me about the mechanisations of politics.

craic
16-09-2015, 08:10 AM
I didn't use Google or any other information source, but I have travelled a lot over the past twenty years and getting a page on Wikipedia is like buying a dog, just name your size colour and breed - anyone can put anything on there.
Helen Clark. No "e". That's why your google search didn't pick up anything maybe. But I think she has a page or two on Wikipedia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Clark)

Major von Tempsky
16-09-2015, 08:18 AM
Helen Who? Was.

I think everyone including the media has lost interest in Amanda Bailey (I had to think hard to work out who she was), she has expressed an interest to return to an anonymous normal life and it's only a few desperate nutcase left wingers who are into it.

elZorro
16-09-2015, 08:32 AM
Daytr - very interesting, just shows how important it is for any political candidate to be absolutely above board in all their personal matters, and vetted by LECs that put them forward for nomination. I think if an MP does something wrong in their normal duties, once elected, that's different.

MVT and Craic, FYI. The Wikipedia pages mention that Helen Clark is currently about the 23rd most powerful woman in the world. Not bad.

Amanda Bailey might want to go back to having an anonymous life. But she also has a powerful opportunity to strike a blow for workers' rights, common decency, and also to help usher a failing National Govt out of office. Quite a lot of responsibility for a young person, I know. But I'm sure it will do her future job prospects no harm, there are still a few leftie employers out there.

Major von Tempsky
16-09-2015, 09:30 AM
"MVT and Craic, FYI. The Wikipedia pages mention that Helen Clark is currently about the 23rd most powerful woman in the world. Not bad. "

So, what am I supposed to do with this somewhat subjective and meaningless information? Grovel and abase myself whenever I see a photo of her? If it was based on personal wealth she would come nowhere. If it was based on qualifications she would come nowhere. Political Science is a laughing stock as a university subject, if it was say physics, chemistry, mathematics I would accord her some respect.

She is a total personal failure in the Darwinian sense which is the only one which counts in the long run. I have 4 children and 8 grandchildren, Me 12, Helen Clark 0.

I never voted for her, she has passed her apogee and is now slowly sinking back to earth with an ever increasing momentum.

If its any comfort to you I totally detest that outlandish boor Donald Trump and place him even lower than Helen Clark.

Daytr
16-09-2015, 09:31 AM
Well there is a reasonable chance that Helen Clark could one day become the UN Secretary General.
So MVT & Craic, you are just displaying your ignorance & undermines any credibility you have posting on here

Major von Tempsky
16-09-2015, 09:36 AM
Ignorance? An easy uninformed charge to throw around when you are desperate and losing the argument. She has zilch chance of becoming UN Secretary General, amongst other things she doesn't come from the 3rd World and isn't coloured. Bang., she's gone as a candidate.

macduffy
16-09-2015, 09:57 AM
Becoming UN Secretary General probably increased one's salary - but does it improve one's ranking in the "most powerful" stakes?

Not, if recent history is any indication!

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2015, 10:53 AM
The New Statesman had this to say today "Can Jeremy Corbyn and Labour MPs learn to get along?


The leadership candidate has the declared support of just 15 MPs. Both sides are preparing to enter what feels like an alternate universe. " :-)

There have also been a number of comments in the British news media and pollies that Jeremy Corbyn has not proposed any new policies. He is simply proposing policies that have already failed in the 1940s and 1950s.

Major
What economic policies in the 1950s that the Conservative governments of Winston Churchill, Antony Eden, Sir Harold MacMillan and Sir Alec Douglas Hume were failures. I would have thought that conservative administrations were your ideological buddies who could do no wrong??I really think you need to go back to University and do some history papers my friend

westerly
16-09-2015, 12:54 PM
Ignorance? An easy uninformed charge to throw around when you are desperate and losing the argument. She has zilch chance of becoming UN Secretary General, amongst other things she doesn't come from the 3rd World and isn't coloured. Bang., she's gone as a candidate.

Norway, Sweden, Austria, Peru, Egypt, Ghana, and Myanamar have all had a UN Secretary General. Apart from Myanamar, none of these countries
could be classed 3rd. world.
The thought of having 12 little majors or majorettes around is deserving of some consideration. Or maybe not :)

westerly

Sgt Pepper
16-09-2015, 01:03 PM
"MVT and Craic, FYI. The Wikipedia pages mention that Helen Clark is currently about the 23rd most powerful woman in the world. Not bad. "

So, what am I supposed to do with this somewhat subjective and meaningless information? Grovel and abase myself whenever I see a photo of her? If it was based on personal wealth she would come nowhere. If it was based on qualifications she would come nowhere. Political Science is a laughing stock as a university subject, if it was say physics, chemistry, mathematics I would accord her some respect.

She is a total personal failure in the Darwinian sense which is the only one which counts in the long run. I have 4 children and 8 grandchildren, Me 12, Helen Clark 0.

I never voted for her, she has passed her apogee and is now slowly sinking back to earth with an ever increasing momentum.

If its any comfort to you I totally detest that outlandish boor Donald Trump and place him even lower than Helen Clark.

"if it was say physics, chemistry, mathematics I would accord her some respect."

Bill English has a degree from Victoria in English Literature. I take it from your comments the that you have no respect for Bill English.

Yaris Varoufakis has a Masters in Mathematics and PhD in Economics. So I assume you have more respect for him because of his academic background.
As for poor old John Key, well he just has a tatty old BCom from Canterbury, obviously no respect from the Major. As for Sir Richard Branson and Bill Gates, well they either dropped out or didn't go to University, so no stamp of approval from old Major there either



I may not be your intent, but you are coming across as a narrow minded, intellectual snob.

Daytr
16-09-2015, 03:58 PM
Haha ok MVt, the rest of the world is uninformed except you & Craic.
You forgot one major aspect in her favour besides the obvious intelligence and well respected diplomatic skills.
She is a woman! And perhaps its about time the UN had a woman as its head?
It would seem in line with most political movements around the world.
She has been ranked as one of the most influential women in the world & she is already one of the top 2-5 people in the UN right now.
So I would say her chances are considerably higher than zilch. Just because you don't like her or respect her, that doesn't change her odds one bit.


Ignorance? An easy uninformed charge to throw around when you are desperate and losing the argument. She has zilch chance of becoming UN Secretary General, amongst other things she doesn't come from the 3rd World and isn't coloured. Bang., she's gone as a candidate.

elZorro
16-09-2015, 08:02 PM
I had this wee poem emailed to me today.

Our Flag bears the stars that blaze at night
In our southern skies of blue.
And that little old Flag in the corner,
That’s part of our heritage too.
It’s for the English, the Scots and the Irish
Who travelled to the ends of the earth.
The traders, the schemers, the doers and dreamers
Who gave modern New Zealand birth.
And those who are seeking to change it,
They don’t seem to understand
It’s the Flag of our law and our language
Not the flag of a faraway land.
There are plenty of people who’ll tell you
That when Europe was plunged into night
That little old flag in the corner
Was their symbol of freedom and light.
It doesn’t mean we owe allegiance
To a forgotten imperial dream
We’ve the stars to show where we’re going
And the old Flag to show where we’ve been.

Snow Leopard
16-09-2015, 08:12 PM
I had this wee poem emailed to me today...

Working on a poem of my own in favour of a new flag

Can anyone think of a word that rhythms with anachronism?

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

elZorro
16-09-2015, 09:00 PM
Working on a poem of my own in favour of a new flag

Can anyone think of a word that rhythms with anachronism?

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Are you saying the current flag is out of step with where we are now, PT? While I see the silver fern is endemic to NZ, so is a starting point, I'd have preferred to see a team of real designers working on the artwork choices for a referendum. It looks like a Clayton's selection at this stage.

If there are no great, terrific, compelling options, we shouldn't change. Anyway, anachronism has five syllables, too long for a poem. Nothing rhymes with it, not even vaingloriousness.:)

Daytr
16-09-2015, 09:10 PM
Happy to change the flag at some point if there is a good alternative.
But there is no rush & I think we should respect those who died or lost loved ones fighting for the current one.
Key has undermined the process & its a mess.
Flag it. Not going to vote in the 1st referendum & voting no in the 2nd.

elZorro
17-09-2015, 07:04 AM
Rod Oram's article on our economy from the SST last weekend.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/71960711/rod-oram-preparing-for-economic-pain?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+17 +September+2015

There has been lots of rural news this week, including a govt rejection of the Chinese offer to buy the large Lochinvar Station near Taupo, from Stevensons. The same Chinese group already owns the former Crafar farms.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11514184&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+17 +September+2015

Meanwhile it doesn't look like Silver Fern Farms will be able to refuse the offer for a 50% shareholding from a foreign company.

You have to ask if anyone in NZ is prepared to stump up significant capital for new purchases in the pastoral sector. They're more interested in getting their money out.

RGR367
17-09-2015, 01:13 PM
Working on a poem of my own in favour of a new flag

Can anyone think of a word that rhythms with anachronism?

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Heaps of words to rhyme with anachronism. Protectionism is one. Even communism will jive with it if you stretch what your poem will be saying :cool: GL and let's read it soon.

Sgt Pepper
17-09-2015, 01:43 PM
2014
Prime Minister John Key says he is happy for a Chinese company to buy a central North Island farm

2015
Pengxin purchase of NZ's Lochinver Station rejected by Government .

2008'
John Key "National is not going to be raising GST.

2010
GST increase

That's our boy, as usual true to form.

jonu
17-09-2015, 02:26 PM
2014
Prime Minister John Key says he is happy for a Chinese company to buy a central North Island farm

2015
Pengxin purchase of NZ's Lochinver Station rejected by Government .

2008'
John Key "National is not going to be raising GST.

2010
GST increase

That's our boy, as usual true to form.


Aww c'mon Sarge, this is just being petulant. The OIA rejected the chinese bid, not John Key. Keep your standards up man!

elZorro
17-09-2015, 05:27 PM
Aww c'mon Sarge, this is just being petulant. The OIA rejected the chinese bid, not John Key. Keep your standards up man!

Actually Sgt Pepper is correct, Jonu. The OIA panel passed the sale, the govt then sat on it for months and eventually vetoed it. Possibly too many votes involved, and a bit of lobbying no doubt. Would John Key have been asked for his opinion? Most likely.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/government-ministers-expected-torpedo-lochinver-sale-chinese-sl-p-178811

jonu
17-09-2015, 05:40 PM
Actually Sgt Pepper is correct, Jonu. The OIA panel passed the sale, the govt then sat on it for months and eventually vetoed it. Possibly too many votes involved, and a bit of lobbying no doubt. Would John Key have been asked for his opinion? Most likely.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/government-ministers-expected-torpedo-lochinver-sale-chinese-sl-p-178811

Yes El Z. I have just caught up on that myself via National Radio.

My humble apologies to Sarge. I shouldn't have run off at the mouth so quickly.

Daytr
17-09-2015, 06:57 PM
Seeing we are looking at replacing the current flag with a logo. How about consumerism. ;-)


Heaps of words to rhyme with anachronism. Protectionism is one. Even communism will jive with it if you stretch what your poem will be saying :cool: GL and let's read it soon.

Sgt Pepper
17-09-2015, 10:09 PM
Yes El Z. I have just caught up on that myself via National Radio.

My humble apologies to Sarge. I shouldn't have run off at the mouth so quickly.

Thanks Jonu
regards
Sarge

elZorro
18-09-2015, 06:33 AM
Looks like Federated Farmers would have been one of the lobbyists against the overseas sale. Lochinver Station is very highly regarded in farming circles.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1509/S00589/federated-farmers-welcomes-government-decision-on-lochinver.htm?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+18+S eptember+2015

There is a different story over Silver Fern Farms: a 50% buyout and capital injection from a Chinese group looks like a sensible deal, according to Patrick Smellie.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/72158793/you-cant-always-get-what-you-want?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+18+S eptember+2015

He makes a good point: our wages are still well above what they might have in China and other destinations for red meat. What is to stop an increasing trend of shipping whole carcasses, not just sheep, but beef animals, for handling overseas? Comparing the meat industry with the dairy industry, it won't be long before any flash robotic or electromechanical plant we might develop in NZ will be more well dispersed overseas too. There will need to be compelling reasons for working on carcasses here.

westerly
18-09-2015, 09:18 AM
Working on a poem of my own in favour of a new flag

Can anyone think of a word that rhythms with anachronism?

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Antagonism seems to be the reaction of many.:)

westerly

elZorro
18-09-2015, 05:52 PM
This article from Oliver Hartwich of the NZ Initiative leaves no doubt as to his political persuasion. He seems to be the head of the operation, so you have to describe NZI as a right-wing think tank, the usual story. Why can't the Left ever get one organised, to provide a bit of balance, I wonder?

https://nzinitiative.outreach.co.nz/?Ns=&Na=view-msg-public&SMESG-oid=8764&Scontact=131b3410

Oliver conveniently misses out the salient facts that: NZ is being sold off, both publicly and privately, the tax take is down in proportion because of this loss in dividends and the lower tax rates. And of course, the govt has spent way more than it is getting back in receipts, over the seven years it has been in office. I still think they'll be lucky to post even a tiny surplus for the year just gone. Future taxpayers will have to pay for this new debt, and deal with superannuation costs. Unemployment is rising, along with the balance of payments.

Incremental neo-liberal policies have done that for NZ. Terrific. Hurrah!

Some quick-witted activists in Hamilton West, I see. Interesting mix of comments.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/66869632/new-zealands-biggest-killer-billboard-replaced-with-john-key-sketch

Daytr
19-09-2015, 08:53 AM
Thought this was worth posting twice! ;-)

Roy Morgan poll has a Labour/Green coalition ahead of National 46 to 44 EZ.
I sent an email to Winston Peters saying I didn't vote for him in the bi-election just to re-elect John Key, so I want to know prior to the 2017 election which parties he would form a coalition with if necessary.

elZorro
19-09-2015, 09:18 AM
Thought this was worth posting twice! ;-)

Roy Morgan poll has a Labour/Green coalition ahead of National 46 to 44 EZ.
I sent an email to Winston Peters saying I didn't vote for him in the bi-election just to re-elect John Key, so I want to know prior to the 2017 election which parties he would form a coalition with if necessary.

Good on yer, Daytr.

Here's that Roy Morgan Poll, released yesterday.
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/6456-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-september-2015-201509180721

By now Treasury will know what the tax take was, for the month of June 2015. This of course, is the last month for the Govt's financial year, and based on that income, we'll reasonably know whether National achieved a budget surplus, or not. Treasury seems to be unusually tardy on posting the data, for that month. They'll even have July's data worked out by now.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/revenue/taxoutturn

elZorro
20-09-2015, 09:30 AM
Part of the awakening we need over NZ's economy is all about the profit share for those in the primary sector and the initial transformation on the product's lifetime. The milk solids sector, the logging industry, meat and wool, for example. While these primary sectors need enormous assets, they are not allowed to capture the proportional profits, that's part of the system we're allowing to evolve. Globalisation is all about holding profits down in the primary sector. The real money is made further up the chain, in distribution and retail sales. Selling off our NZ assets, along with the IP that built them up in the first place, is just crazy, if we end up with a lower profit base here. Rod Oram has a good look at this problem.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/72135330/rod-oram-silver-fern-farms-chinese-deal-poses-risks

elZorro
20-09-2015, 09:37 PM
The answer is not due to a lack of organization but funding, super rich corporations/people have lots of money for propaganda from the likes of the NZ Institute and they need to spend it lest the public wakes up and sees what a bunch of useless scabs and leeches they are. There is also the laughable BS that we are living in a meritocracy, this sort of stuff does require a lot of effort as the truth is staring people in the face every day.

Good point PSE, although I have seen some instances of inaction at the Labour coalface recently, and that has to change.

Sometime in October, our super-clever Govt will need to tell us how they did in the last financial year, and how the next year will go. If they were a company, we'd be waiting on the Q4 and Annual Report. I think it's almost a surety that they'll post another loss, it'll be their seventh in a row, and while they won't be selling shares to cover that, they will be raising some capital offshore. The shareholders (future taxpayers) will need to pay it all off in the years to come, but by then we'll have a wholesale change in the Board of Directors I hope.

In May, a budget surplus was mentioned as unlikely. Despite the high tax month of May, and National's newfound hopes after that, I don't see how they'll be able to manufacture an annual surplus from the June tax take, which is always much lower. This is going to be hugely embarrassing for Bill and John, but they'll have some Crosby-Textor words ready for us. "We got close, that's good enough"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/68437965/Government-will-not-deliver-long-promised-surplus-Treasury

artemis
21-09-2015, 08:38 AM
The answer is not due to a lack of organization but funding, super rich corporations/people have lots of money for propaganda from the likes of the NZ Institute .......

I assume you mean the NZ Initiative? At least they publish their research and findings so people can read and make up their own minds. Even if they disagree with the conclusions they may have learned something. Some of their publications are very practical and include input from people at the coalface. A couple of recent examples - costs and benefits of the working at heights safety legislation, and CBA of compensating organ donors.

Major von Tempsky
21-09-2015, 05:26 PM
We are in a deflationary period now with a current account deficit, very low inflation, Chinese economy crisis, low international commodity prices. The prescription is to run a moderate Budget deficit which is precisely what National is doing. Learn some economics.

Sgt Pepper
21-09-2015, 06:20 PM
We are in a deflationary period now with a current account deficit, very low inflation, Chinese economy crisis, low international commodity prices. The prescription is to run a moderate Budget deficit which is precisely what National is doing. Learn some economics.
National has confirmed an income tax cut is in the pipeline for New Zealanders if it is re-elected on September 20 – but wouldn't kick in until just before the following election

September 08 2104
http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/national-confirms-tax-cuts-by-2017-2014090815#ixzz3mM7Q3zGd

so the promised balanced budget and the second tranche of tax cuts??

neopoleII
21-09-2015, 07:10 PM
""so the promised balanced budget and the second tranche of tax cuts??""

From the people that I interact with.. co workers, friends and customers,
no one seems to be worried with a deficit or even 7 of them...... because they "know"
thanks to the media that the rest of the world seems to be in far more trouble than we are.
What with the tidal wave of refugees swamping Europe, China slowing down, and the rest of the world
still struggling to get out of its economic slump makes us look ok.
And then we have left wing NZ parties banging on about bring in more refugees, raising taxes for job suppliers..... ie employers.....
and raising benefits and wages to "living standards"....... by whose standard?
So in a nut shell... those that work hard and those that rely on the state and can understand a news bite or read a newspaper
realize that that a vote for a Labour/Green/ Winnie party might bite them in the bottom.
This is why JK is still doing well, and by the time the next election is near..... the world outlook might be looking bleaker.

And in the middle of all this is the potential "king maker" .
His core voters are conservative elderly........
Which way will he go?
Some posters on here want him to go left and encompass the Greens and Labour and their big spend social agenda.
But IMHO his core voters will demand that he goes center right or sits out.
I will also write to him asking him which way he is leaning and give him my opinion of which way he should go.
Interesting times ahead.......

Sgt Pepper
21-09-2015, 08:00 PM
""so the promised balanced budget and the second tranche of tax cuts??""

From the people that I interact with.. co workers, friends and customers,
no one seems to be worried with a deficit or even 7 of them...... because they "know"
thanks to the media that the rest of the world seems to be in far more trouble than we are.
What with the tidal wave of refugees swamping Europe, China slowing down, and the rest of the world
still struggling to get out of its economic slump makes us look ok.
And then we have left wing NZ parties banging on about bring in more refugees, raising taxes for job suppliers..... ie employers.....
and raising benefits and wages to "living standards"....... by whose standard?
So in a nut shell... those that work hard and those that rely on the state and can understand a news bite or read a newspaper
realize that that a vote for a Labour/Green/ Winnie party might bite them in the bottom.
This is why JK is still doing well, and by the time the next election is near..... the world outlook might be looking bleaker.

And in the middle of all this is the potential "king maker" .
His core voters are conservative elderly........
Which way will he go?
Some posters on here want him to go left and encompass the Greens and Labour and their big spend social agenda.
But IMHO his core voters will demand that he goes center right or sits out.
I will also write to him asking him which way he is leaning and give him my opinion of which way he should go.
Interesting times ahead.......

neopole
As usual you make reasonable points. However I take electoral promises, within reason at face value. In this case John Key made many undetakings as a point of electoral difference in 2008 and later. In particular he indicated his government would, if elected achieve a balanced budget as this was essential( so we were told repeatedly) to the economy. In addition there would be a second tranche of tax cuts. I think just glossing over these promises and continually cutting JK some slack because " hey he is a nice guy" is very foolish and will embolden him to continue to be "economical with the truth" in the future.

Daytr
21-09-2015, 08:03 PM
Have we been in a deflationary period for 8 years?
Economics 101. You cannot keep borrowing more than you earn and expect there not to be consequences.
You also cannot keep selling assets & increase borrowing at the same time again without consequences.

Neopole, those countries weren't concerned either only 8 years ago...



We are in a deflationary period now with a current account deficit, very low inflation, Chinese economy crisis, low international commodity prices. The prescription is to run a moderate Budget deficit which is precisely what National is doing. Learn some economics.

elZorro
22-09-2015, 06:39 AM
MVT: Economics basics that the PM seems to be ignoring, or worse, lying about. Allow a record net 60,000 immigrants this last year into NZ, nearly 50% into the Auckland area, and see what effect that has on housing and lower paid jobs availability. Here's the 3% GDP "growth" this govt is rabbiting on about: part rebuild in Christchurch, part highway expansion, a big part from higher immigration. Where is the real economy going?


http://www.interest.co.nz/news/77719/pm-says-record-high-net-migration-vote-confidence-nz-says-housing-issues-can-take-care?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Tuesday+22+ September+2015

Daytr
22-09-2015, 06:46 AM
David Seymour Leader of Act wants the government to compensate the Stevenson group for the government turning down the Chinese offer to buy Lochinver Station. I wonder what the Act party's policy is on the Maori treaty claims? No wonder they are a party without credibility with ridiculous policy such as this.

westerly
22-09-2015, 11:03 AM
""so the promised balanced budget and the second tranche of tax cuts??""

From the people that I interact with.. co workers, friends and customers,
no one seems to be worried with a deficit or even 7 of them...... because they "know"
thanks to the media that the rest of the world seems to be in far more trouble than we are.
What with the tidal wave of refugees swamping Europe, China slowing down, and the rest of the world
still struggling to get out of its economic slump makes us look ok.
And then we have left wing NZ parties banging on about bring in more refugees, raising taxes for job suppliers..... ie employers.....
and raising benefits and wages to "living standards"....... by whose standard?
So in a nut shell... those that work hard and those that rely on the state and can understand a news bite or read a newspaper
realize that that a vote for a Labour/Green/ Winnie party might bite them in the bottom.
This is why JK is still doing well, and by the time the next election is near..... the world outlook might be looking bleaker.

And in the middle of all this is the potential "king maker" .
His core voters are conservative elderly........
Which way will he go?
Some posters on here want him to go left and encompass the Greens and Labour and their big spend social agenda.
But IMHO his core voters will demand that he goes center right or sits out.
I will also write to him asking him which way he is leaning and give him my opinion of which way he should go.
Interesting times ahead.......

“his core voters are conservative elderly”
Those doddery old voters who do not suffer to much memory loss may recall a time when housing was affordable, the Govt. was not obsessed with reducing expenditure, reducing income tax but increasing charges, and generally showed concern for the general population.
They may in their dotage wonder why their grandchildren cannot afford a house, their depleting savings earn pathetic interest and the banks make large profits, why unions are terrible, yet business groups and right wing think tanks have undue influence on public policy. Why public assets have been sold and who benefited.
Just maybe they have a point having lost faith in both of the two main parties

westerly

Daytr
22-09-2015, 06:20 PM
A poll on changing the flag released yesterday had 70% of people saying they don't want to change the flag.
According to Key the question asked "Do you want to change the flag? Yes or No" wasn't granular enough.
And if you ask a question with more fluff, his audiences have been telling him more than % want to change.
Who do you believe?
He sounds like a defeated man in this interview of constant denial on National Radio.

So now he moves onto his next pet project (if you will pardon the pun) to squander tax payers money. Pandas from China for Wellington Zoo.
Has he lost the plot? He is cutting costs to education, DOC, social housing, mental health, you name it he's slashing funding & he wants to spend millions on bringing in a couple of Pandas! I assume he thinks it will be a crowd pleaser. Hopefully anyone with intelligence will see it for what it is.

Key in 2015 has become a joke.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/top/284791/pm-dismisses-new-flag-poll

neopoleII
22-09-2015, 07:40 PM
""Those doddery old voters who do not suffer to much memory loss may recall a time when housing was affordable""
They also recall a time when social spending and personal responsibility was also more conservative than todays "entitlements".

""Hopefully anyone with intelligence will see it for what it is.""
Sadly alot of voters base their political viewpoints...... if they knew what a political view point is..... on television news bites.

Never under estimate the power of media propaganda and the old folks memory of how they grew up where a 26inch colour tv was ultimate luxury....or the wringer washer.

As for losing faith in NZ politics..... I lost that years ago......
Winnie is someone I still respect...... just havent voted for him yet.......
Maybe because he cant draw a line in the sand...... and every one young and old knows what a fence sitter is..... besides that.... he is a statesman.
Maybe just in the wrong country and wrong time..... sad really.




sorry for the short reply but i am working.

elZorro
23-09-2015, 06:05 AM
Just a quick interlude about sentiment in the regions, from NZResources.


23/9/2015 — General
Economic pinch being felt in rural NZ
By Simon Hartley
Confidence has taken a knock in the rural sector in two separate surveys, with Rabobank saying farming sentiment continued to hover around decade lows.
While the dairy industry was still languishing, Rabobank general manager of country banking NZ, Hayley Moynihan, said the rural confidence survey showed sheep and beef farmers were increasingly positive about their own businesses, with 27% now having an optimistic outlook for their business performance.
Ms Moynihan said more than half of the country's farmers, 53%, held the view that conditions would worsen over the coming year, but this was down from 56% in the previous survey.
The survey, in late-August and September, accounted for two of first three fortnightly dairy auctions resuming making gains, following 10 consecutive declines, but showed dairy producers had not yet started to feel optimistic about a price recovery.
In the separate Westpac McDermott Miller quarterly consumer confidence index, overall consumer confidence had fallen sharply, particularly in the rural sector, Westpac's chief economist Felix Delbruck said.
The net percentage of rural households which thought now was a good time to buy a major household item plunged from 19.4% to just 6.4%, its lowest result since just after Canterbury's second earthquake in 2011.
“Consumers are much less optimistic for the wider economy, and their spending appetites have become more cautious, particularly in rural areas,” he said.
The decline in confidence was not limited to rural regions, saying it had fallen hardest among higher income households, the middle-aged and older households and among men, more than women.
Rabobank’s Hayley Moynihan said the latest survey continued to reflect the two consecutive seasons of low dairy prices, weighing not only on sentiment in the dairy industry, but right across the wider NZ economy.
“With dairy representing nearly 30 % of the value of all NZ exports, the farmgate milk price is not only having a huge impact on export revenue, but on the wider economy as farmers reduce their spending,” she said.
A drop in NZ milk production would be “one of the key drivers” to lead to a supply adjustment in global export markets which would trigger longer-term price recovery.
The ASB said its own forecast 5% decline in dairy production prompted it to lift its forecast pay out from $4.50 to $5, per kilogram of milk solids. However, less encouraging were the latest gross domestic product figures, which showed the economy expanded 0.4% in the second quarter.
“We expect the Reserve bank will need to trim its GDP outlook a touch, reinforcing that inflation pressures risk being slow in picking up,” the ASB said.
The dairy sector confidence is expected to further improve, off the back of last week's additional large, 16.5% jump in the global dairying auction index.
“The increase in the GDT price index is warmly welcomed by dairy producers, and is more representative of current global market fundamentals following the over-correction,” Ms Moynihan said.
“However, there is still a way yet to go until we see prices returning towards a more sustainable level,” she said. That concurred, she said, with Rabobank's view that a significant recovery in dairy prices was expected to be underway by mid-2016.
*Simon Hartley is senior business reporter and assistant chief reporter for the Otago Daily Times.

Daytr
23-09-2015, 06:40 AM
Paula Bennett, John Key's heir apparent in some circles is proposing that builders can sign off on their own work.
Wow! Just wow! How removed from reality are these people?
An industry that has a continuous history of dodgy work and cowboys & Bennett wants them to sign off their own work.
This just comes after the dodgy piling work done in Christchurch by subcontractors to NZs top construction company.
If there is a shortage of housing & stress on infrastructure, how about turning down the immigration tap which has been running at record levels for years now. Why wont they? Its because National are bereft of idea in regards growing a sustainable economy so they need 60-70k more people each year just to ensure we don't go into recession.
Meanwhile they are cutting jobs in ag science !
If they actually invested the 10s of billions they are spending on building massive motorways they could actually invest in the country's people & education and things like scientific research are very important spends and have massive spin offs in the long run.

National have got to go before they run this country into the ground.
And yes before anyone says the opposite, I am being positive, as I want a hell of a lot better than this bunch of ponytail pulling lead cowboys are offering, that panda to the general populace with simplistic flag waiving exercises. Dodgy handshake with McCaw stage left.

elZorro
23-09-2015, 08:40 AM
You're coming across as a bit angry today, Daytr :eek2:. Good points though, and I've been grumping away about this government for several years too. I have come to the same conclusion as you have, that we must push them out. Whatever is required, we have to try it.

Daytr
23-09-2015, 11:45 AM
Perhaps a little angry EZ, more determined. Determined that I know the country could be doing a hell of a lot better & that some of the policy direction National is trying to take us in will have long term negative consequences.

elZorro
23-09-2015, 07:10 PM
Perhaps a little angry EZ, more determined. Determined that I know the country could be doing a hell of a lot better & that some of the policy direction National is trying to take us in will have long term negative consequences.

Couldn't agree more, Daytr. Fun and games in the House at question time today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXLu2-Faask

And on the flag debate, Jacinda Ardern raised some good points.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72340093/live-govt-set-to-give-red-peak-new-life-in-the-flag-referendum

I'm not too worried about the Greens looking to help out the govt on the fifth flag. The correct outcome is that a real flag design, not a badge, will be offered for a protest vote against the four that have been chosen.

Daytr
23-09-2015, 09:08 PM
Looks like the Greens are going to come to the rescue in regards Key's ego project of changing the flag.
Who would have thunk it! I can't imagine Key spitting on a Green party member of they were on fire!
So Red Peak comes in to flatter the referendum numbers.
Still don't think its going to be enough.

craic
24-09-2015, 08:15 AM
No. As most commentators agree, Key was smart enough to shake hands with the Greens and shaft Labour, as he has been doing effectively for years.

Sgt Pepper
24-09-2015, 09:47 AM
One of the most fascinating articles I have read in a long time in todays Telegraph UK
The cost of labour is about to get considerably more expensive. No doubt the Major will disagree.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11882915/Deflation-supercyle-is-over-as-world-runs-out-of-workers.html
Deflation supercycle is over as world runs out of workersThe demographic 'sweet spot' is vanishing. We are on the cusp of a complete reversal, spelling the end of corporate hegemony

macduffy
24-09-2015, 11:41 AM
Unless, of course, we're on the cusp of the age of the robots.

:ohmy:

craic
24-09-2015, 12:17 PM
Lift the Pension qualifying age by a couple of years. Remove the requirement to retire at any age. Use more man-machine systems and so on. That article reminds me of the articles I read in the 1950's predicting the dire consequences of population growth and the inevitability of starvation within a decade. I'm sure that you will get equally qualified experts who will totally disagree with the author and the papers will have an equally newsworthy item to publish.

Daytr
24-09-2015, 12:26 PM
Really, you obviously aren't reading the mainstream press then.
National could have made this change if they wanted to, however Key didn't want to admit he has got the whole referendum process horribly wrong.
Whilst I commend the Greens for their willingness to work across the political spectrum, some thing the new co-leader seems to have brought with him, however it doesn't change for me that the process has been flawed from go to woe and the timing isn't right.
Not going vote in the 1st referendum and a vote in favour of the current flag in the 2nd.


No. As most commentators agree, Key was smart enough to shake hands with the Greens and shaft Labour, as he has been doing effectively for years.

Sgt Pepper
24-09-2015, 12:37 PM
The article discusses that. The demographics are such that this will outstrip advantages in robotics/ lights out factories. Service industries in the future will be severely tested. You have a cohort of senior management who have always had an abundant source of relatively low cost labour with comparatively benign industrial legislation framework. In our country companies such as Restaurant Brands will find the evolving labour shortage difficult. The days of opening a café, adverting for staff and having a stack of CVs arriving and then paying them the minimum wage will come to an end

Sgt Pepper
24-09-2015, 12:45 PM
Lift the Pension qualifying age by a couple of years. Remove the requirement to retire at any age. Use more man-machine systems and so on. That article reminds me of the articles I read in the 1950's predicting the dire consequences of population growth and the inevitability of starvation within a decade. I'm sure that you will get equally qualified experts who will totally disagree with the author and the papers will have an equally newsworthy item to publish.

You must remember there was a nett labour shortage in this country until the early seventies of which would have benefited yourself Craic when emigrating here in 1960 It might be a case of back to the future me thinks

Daytr
24-09-2015, 12:49 PM
Its an interesting point Sgt Pepper and we can already see it in the US workforce stats with a plummeting participation rate as the baby boomers are retiring in droves from generally high paid jobs & being replaced by low paid workers at the other end. That's why the US recovery is quite often referred to the 'Burger Flipper' recovery. To attract workers or stop them retiring early etc they will need to pay higher wages which is obviously inflationary. There are still a few Asian countries to slot in behind China as the next labour pool, but they obviously aren't the same scale.
Efficiency through technology will offset some of the risk, but not all.
The next twenty years are going to be interesting.

craic
24-09-2015, 02:16 PM
When I got off the boat I couldn't believe my eyes. The large-format Dominion had eight pages of job with all sorts of incentives - plenty of overtime, subsidised lunches, attendance bonuses and the like. A quick run around town would get two or three jobs and then into the pub to decide which one to take. In the early seventies if a probationer or parolee reported unemployed and claimed that he couldn't get work I directed him to report daily at 8.30 am. It never took more than 48 hours to get him working.
You must remember there was a nett labour shortage in this country until the early seventies of which would have benefited yourself Craic when emigrating here in 1960 It might be a case of back to the future me thinks

elZorro
25-09-2015, 06:45 AM
Here's a bit about the job losses in the agricultural research sector. It's not a surprise, but is it a good thing? Are the Callaghan projects providing better value for money?

http://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/77797/agresearch-cut-33-scientist-jobs-and-50-science-technician-jobs-net-65-total-staff?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+25+S eptember+2015

Here's one that won't be taking on many staff in NZ for a while, Endace, which started in Hamiltown. Amazing technology, but maybe the market isn't very big.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72377214/callaghan-may-seek-to-claw-back-grant-to-endace-after-restructure?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Friday+25+S eptember+2015

craic
25-09-2015, 12:35 PM
All the UK Labour leaders for the past few decades, about six of them have started their tenure with a popularity rating from about 16% to about 20%. The latest fellow comes in at minus 3%. Refer to todays Daily Mail online. I'm not sure how you get a negative rating - If no one wants you, you get nothing - but minus 3%?

Sgt Pepper
25-09-2015, 01:21 PM
All the UK Labour leaders for the past few decades, about six of them have started their tenure with a popularity rating from about 16% to about 20%. The latest fellow comes in at minus 3%. Refer to todays Daily Mail online. I'm not sure how you get a negative rating - If no one wants you, you get nothing - but minus 3%?

Yes but you have got to be careful writing off leaders prospects too early. Watched an interesting documentary on Margaret Thatcher. When first elected her position was far from secure within the conservative party with many senior power brokers deeply distrustful of her. If the Argentine Military government had not invaded he Falklands then it was highly likely Michael Hesseltine would have had the support to dump her and her historical legacy quite different

Major von Tempsky
25-09-2015, 02:43 PM
Something along the lines of "% of Labour voters in favour of Corbyn 25%; % of Labour voters against Corbyn 28%; Don't know/Don't care/A plague on all Your Houses/He's not Left Wing Enough 47%, answer a negative rating of minus 3....

I think the answer is probably contained in this Daily Mail quote "Only 33% say Jeremy Corbyn is doing well compared to 36% who say badly
From Michael Foot to Ed Miliband, all Labour leaders have started off better
Corbyn seen as more honest but Cameron is judged a more capable leader
Reveals he has been trying out using an autocue to improve speeches
Vegetarian MP says he 'tolerates' people eating meat in front of him"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247775/Off-really-bad-start-Jeremy-Corbyn-worst-poll-ratings-new-Labour-leader-EVER.html#ixzz3mid2y0ww
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

craic
25-09-2015, 04:16 PM
So? I tolerate people eating vegetables in front of me. Would not sing God Save The Queen at the Battle of Britain Commemoration. If the place continues to decline and they don't win the World Cup I predict droves of them will be fleeing across Europe to Syria.

blackcap
25-09-2015, 05:32 PM
Sounds like a pompous so and so. "Will tolerate people eating meat" WTF?

westerly
25-09-2015, 07:44 PM
Something along the lines of "% of Labour voters in favour of Corbyn 25%; % of Labour voters against Corbyn 28%; Don't know/Don't care/A plague on all Your Houses/He's not Left Wing Enough 47%, answer a negative rating of minus 3....

I think the answer is probably contained in this Daily Mail quote "Only 33% say Jeremy Corbyn is doing well compared to 36% who say badly
From Michael Foot to Ed Miliband, all Labour leaders have started off better
Corbyn seen as more honest but Cameron is judged a more capable leader
Reveals he has been trying out using an autocue to improve speeches
Vegetarian MP says he 'tolerates' people eating meat in front of him"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247775/Off-really-bad-start-Jeremy-Corbyn-worst-poll-ratings-new-Labour-leader-EVER.html#ixzz3mid2y0ww
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Cameron is rated -10, the Govt is rated -16, Cameron 42% satisfied, 52% not satisfied, Govt. satisfied 38%, 54% not satisfied.
Corbyn has better ratings.
Hard for the left to counter the negative attack from the right.

westerly

Major von Tempsky
26-09-2015, 01:26 PM
The Left had their chance at the last General Election and got done.

You know, I know and everyone knows it's General Elections that count not polls.

You know, I know and everyone knows that if there was another General Election right now that Cameron would triumph by even more regardless of the specious polls you quoted.

Sgt Pepper
26-09-2015, 03:26 PM
The Left had their chance at the last General Election and got done.

You know, I know and everyone knows it's General Elections that count not polls.

You know, I know and everyone knows that if there was another General Election right now that Cameron would triumph by even more regardless of the specious polls you quoted.

Major
You wont have to worry about David Cameron after 2019
Before the last election, the Prime Minister said (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32037196) that, were he to be returned to Downing Street, whilst he intended to serve a “full” second term in office, he would not seek a third term.

Likewise John Key he will have bailed to greener pastures, probably a diplomatic posting.

Major von Tempsky
27-09-2015, 08:11 AM
I think you need to look back at Kiwi Keith Holyoake to see what John Key will do as John Key clearly intends to beat him, use him as his marker. It wasn't until Keith Holyoake had won 4 elections in a row that he began to consider retirement and that wasn't immediately!

Sgt Pepper
27-09-2015, 11:54 AM
I think you need to look back at Kiwi Keith Holyoake to see what John Key will do as John Key clearly intends to beat him, use him as his marker. It wasn't until Keith Holyoake had won 4 elections in a row that he began to consider retirement and that wasn't immediately!

Major, I cant agree
remember the old observation about the nature of politics. Those who sit opposite you are your opponents, your enemies are those who sit beside and behind you.
Those in the National caucus, the young and ambitious will not tolerate the John Key show having repeat screenings. Why? they are ambitious and most are not stupid. This political calculation is based on the obvious conclusion that when they are out of power it will be at least six years before they have any hope of being back in government. So Paula Bennett, Simon Bridges, and Michael Woodhouse are acutely aware of this. Believe me they don't want John Key in power for another 5 years, otherwise they will miss their political window of opportunity and it will be too late. If he doesn't go he will be pushed.

craic
27-09-2015, 02:29 PM
An assumption from the left of centre if ever there was one. I imagine that the office of Prime Minister is not one that attracts many people. As to pushing him out, they would all be aware that that would be a dangerous ploy and success would likely lose the treasury benches for the party and the plotters would be on the next bonfire. In fact it's straight out of the Labour Party Manual of Instructions for members who wish to lead the party.

Daytr
27-09-2015, 07:35 PM
Well Shipley did it to Bolger & then lost the election.
Shipley having the honor of being the first woman PM, what a disgrace.
Clarke I suppose has the record of being the only woman PM to be elected.

elZorro
27-09-2015, 07:48 PM
I think you need to look back at Kiwi Keith Holyoake to see what John Key will do as John Key clearly intends to beat him, use him as his marker. It wasn't until Keith Holyoake had won 4 elections in a row that he began to consider retirement and that wasn't immediately!

The prediction website has John Key at 70% likely to step down as National Party Leader during 2017. The odds don't seem to be changing.

https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=browse&cat=1

elZorro
28-09-2015, 06:41 AM
Bernard Hickey on immigration effects on the economy. It's not all good.

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/77785/bernard-hickey-calls-productivity-commission-inquiry-whether-record-high-migration?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+28+S eptember+2015

My interest in this, is that it has been a very good way for National to mask a relatively poorly performing economy. Let's just indent some activity, but at the cost of more unemployed NZers. Therefore we have more people than ever being employed (which the govt never ceases to remind us of), and yet we also have more unemployed too. Taxpayers are paying for that.

stoploss
28-09-2015, 08:17 AM
Bernard Hickey on immigration effects on the economy. It's not all good.

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/77785/bernard-hickey-calls-productivity-commission-inquiry-whether-record-high-migration?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+28+S eptember+2015

My interest in this, is that it has been a very good way for National to mask a relatively poorly performing economy. Let's just indent some activity, but at the cost of more unemployed NZers. Therefore we have more people than ever being employed (which the govt never ceases to remind us of), and yet we also have more unemployed too. Taxpayers are paying for that.

El Z , there will always be unemployment when people are paid to do nothing . Unless people are prepared to move to find employment , full employment will not happen . If you are sitting in a small town that used to have say timber processing , the unemployment rate is for arguments sake around 20 % , chances are very slim of you picking up a job. However if you were prepared to travel , grape picking ,Grape vine pruning , Apples , nectarines, olives , asparagus , ..... the list goes on, there is probably six months full time work due to the different seasons here .
However we let in thousands on temporary visas to do this work each year , when it could be Kiwis if only they were prepared to travel . All you get is I can't leave my family , or it is too hard to relocate my family .....Tell that to someone in the armed forces that gets stationed in the Middle East in a hostile environment away from their family ......

craic
28-09-2015, 08:53 AM
It's even worse than that. Here in Hawkes Bay we import busloads of islanders to work the fruit season as a well as others. As A probation officer here for many years, I had a good complement of unemployed and many would not work in the orchards. The main excuse was "I haven't got a car so I can't get there" or the "pay is ****" or a dozen equally weak reasons. Ask some Syrian refugees about moving to get a job. I left my home at seventeen and moved from Dublin to Belfast to get a job - in the British Army. Now maybe that's an idea. Long term unemployed recruited into a Pioneer Corps for twelve months.

Sgt Pepper
28-09-2015, 09:11 AM
It's even worse than that. Here in Hawkes Bay we import busloads of islanders to work the fruit season as a well as others. As A probation officer here for many years, I had a good complement of unemployed and many would not work in the orchards. The main excuse was "I haven't got a car so I can't get there" or the "pay is ****" or a dozen equally weak reasons. Ask some Syrian refugees about moving to get a job. I left my home at seventeen and moved from Dublin to Belfast to get a job - in the British Army. Now maybe that's an idea. Long term unemployed recruited into a Pioneer Corps for twelve months.

Craic
I agree that for many, especially young males, some form of military service would be beneficial. Like many things in life ones outlook is based on your own life experiences. In my case at the age of 21 I enlisted in the Territorials in the Artillery and remained for 13 years. Our basic and specialist training was 3 months, met some great people whom I still catch up with occasionally all these years later. It made me fit, and increased my self confidence. It would be the making of many young males today. But I concede there is no prospect of any form of compulsory national service being reconstituted in as much very few politicians of any party for a start have served in the military and it may not be very popular with the electorate either. The Defence Forces as well probably would not be receptive.

westerly
28-09-2015, 06:32 PM
The Left had their chance at the last General Election and got done.

You know, I know and everyone knows it's General Elections that count not polls.

You know, I know and everyone knows that if there was another General Election right now that Cameron would triumph by even more regardless of the specious polls you quoted.

I was quoting from the specious poll you were quoting from?
You are probably right if an election was held as of now.
Judith Collins in the Sunday Star Times surprisingly said elections were not won at the centre but at the edges. Those in the centre do not change their allegiance.
Is that why the right is so worried about Corbin? He managed to activate the left side of Labour to get himself elected.

westerly

elZorro
28-09-2015, 07:55 PM
Stoploss and Craic, you are of course partly right. There is no shortage of jobs, but there is a shortage of long-term, well-paid, semi-skilled jobs. There is a temporary surge of meat processing jobs as dairy farmers cull the bottom 10-15% of their herds, but dairy factories are increasingly automating their processes, and forestry is in the doldrums once again. I'm a shareholder in a small forest, and they've been taking out pines for about a year, and from what I can see, the logs are just about paying for the road work needed to get to the trees. Nothing left over yet. Too many businesses are losing money, or breaking even. Not a recipe for job creation, or a big money-go-round. On the grapevine, dairy farmers are starting to let staff go, they've got through the hard start of the season and now want to balance their books.

Major von Tempsky
28-09-2015, 09:00 PM
The Prediction website is run by young men with short memories and no knowledge of history.....and for EZ, those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it! Tough luck Eeezers...

elZorro
28-09-2015, 09:11 PM
The Prediction website is run by young men with short memories and no knowledge of history.....and for EZ, those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it! Tough luck Eeezers...

MVT, according to history, National is heading for a near record seven-year losing streak in balancing the budget, they'll need to bluff their way out of another recession by 2017, and they're in the third term of a three-in, three-out series that's well established. Even the affable John Key won't save them in 2017.

The website you mention is run by a board comprised of at least one right-wing think-tank member, and they wouldn't want to show the NZ political summary at the moment.

Colin James with a summary of JK's legacy so far.


Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 29 September 2015


Will Key "man up" on what counts for kids?


John Key told the Labour party to "man up" and back his Crosby/Textor flip-flop law change for an additional design on the flag referendum. Earlier this year he told Labour to "get some guts" and back his Iraq adventure.

But does Key "man up" under pressure?

Did he "man up" over his indiscreet comments to John Banks in the 2011 election campaign? Did he "man up" over unlawful spying on Kim Dotcom? Did he "man up" over his office employee's conspiracy with Cameron Slater to slop dirt over his opponents?

Academic Jon Johansson (no Labour fellow-traveller) has distilled a "character-related weakness" when under attack, demonstrated in "three corrections to the parliamentary record, in the Dotcom and related cases," his "frequent date-shifting to match new political information" and "his 'brain fades' ... when he has self-servingly chosen a different hat to avoid accountability" (that is, John Key the person not John Key the Prime Minister).

Is Key the sort who can "man up" on the flag and do what Labour and most critics have asked: put a yes-no question in the first referendum?

What Key did do was to slide self-righteously above-politics Green co-leader James Shaw into the grime. Shaw has made a big play of seeking a cross-party climate change deal. Key enrolled him in one slagging Labour.

There are other "man up" issues for Key. One is to come cleaner on the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) deal, on which Tim Groser told a business gathering in mid-August we could not expect much on dairy but would have to be in the club.

(The real TPP aim is regulatory convergence. The Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, which may now be being revived from a two-year coma, has the same ambition. Together they would cover most world trade -- and, tellingly, exclude China.)

Intergenerational issues are another "man up" matter for Key. He is not securing national superannuation on a sustainable fiscal footing. He shies from substantive action on climate change, including some initiatives which would not cost much.

A third such issue was back on the table last week -- for the fifteenth time since 1988: how to rescue and nurture children under attack and enable them to become full citizens.

An "expert panel", headed by the ubiquitous Paula Rebstock, has produced a 155-page interim report. (Rebstock also last week damned the Defence Force as a dysfunctional brigade, thereby lending poignancy to the opening words of the English version of the national anthem.)

Rebstock is the big gun on the actuarial "forward liability investment approach" in welfare and her report wants it applied to the children. This can generate co-benefits and appears to be doing so with some beneficiaries. But it is insurance rather than real investment.

Real investment of time, love, nurturing and nourishment of body and mind in children builds a real asset: a full member of society, self-supporting, paying taxes, bringing up the next generation well.

That asset is far more valuable than fusty avoidance of future welfare, hospital and prison fiscal costs.

The consequence, spelt out by Rebstock and Co in sad page after page, of not investing in abuse or neglected children is, to quote Bill English on prisons a few years back, a "moral and fiscal failure".

Three things bring this back to Key.

One is Paula Bennett, whom he has promoted into line as a potential successor to English in finance and himself (eventually) as leader.

Bennett was six years Social Development Minister with, she said, a focus on disadvantaged kids. Her successor, tough-gal Anne Tolley, has, by commissioning Rebstock, essentially said Bennett failed. (Tolley stomped off into the blame game on Sunday by toying with tubal ligation for bad mothers.)

The second Key factor is that fixing the failure requires day-to-day whipping of patch-protecting ministers and agency chief executives to get effective, systematic, concerted, intensive-case-managed, child-focused action -- plus a standover of English for the funds needed to invest in systems and staffs (though some say English is saying he will find whatever funds are needed).

Driving ministers and officials requires the overarching authority only a Prime Minister has -- plus the Prime Minister's personal attention.

Third is Key himself. He has said he wants his legacy to be what he does for disadvantaged kids.

He preened himself at budget time with his up-to-$25 benefit rise. But he has not driven urgent action on Paul Hutchison's far-reaching health select committee report of late 2013, which might have been used to start fixing the mess Rebstock has been sloshing round in. That report, by the way, drew heavily on the world-unique longitudinal survey run by Ritchie Poulton, a Rebstock panellist and science adviser to Tolley's ministry.

Seven years into his prime ministership, will Key now drive urgent action to get some guts into the legacy he has said he wants?

Or will flag-waving be "man-up" Key's legacy?

Colin James, Synapsis Ltd, 04-384 7030, 021-438 434, P O Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141,
ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000589/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), website www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000589/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

Sgt Pepper
29-09-2015, 09:36 AM
MVT, according to history, National is heading for a near record seven-year losing streak in balancing the budget, they'll need to bluff their way out of another recession by 2017, and they're in the third term of a three-in, three-out series that's well established. Even the affable John Key won't save them in 2017.

The website you mention is run by a board comprised of at least one right-wing think-tank member, and they wouldn't want to show the NZ political summary at the moment.

Colin James with a summary of JK's legacy so far.

EZ
I had to laugh when the Major dismissed I predict as run by people with no sense of history. I constantly catch the Major out on his rather distorted and wildly inaccurate/ selective historical perspective. He usually does not respond

Snapper
29-09-2015, 11:15 AM
I don't think that Colin James has got it right when he sees Rebstock's report as criticism of Paula Bennett's time as Minister of Social Development. It was under her watch that they instituted the'investment' and cost/benefit approach to issues of long-term unemployment and it appears that Rebstock is advocating that they apply the same approach to child neglect. I see that as an affirmation of Bennett's handling of the portfolio, not the other way round.

As far as James's other points regarding Key are concerned, can he be blamed for getting a shot in at Labour over the flag? Must have been too tempting to resist especially after the relentless negativity on show from Litlle et al. There was no way that the yes/no decision was going to be included on the first referendum, people are obviously going to stick with the status quo if they don't know what the alternative is. Two referendums is the fairest way to do it; anything else would be doomed to failure.

Commentators, especially those of the left wing variety, love to get stuck into John Key because, first and foremost, he is a successful politician just as the right wing dingbats couldn't stand Helen Clark because, guess what, she was a successful politician too. Dotcom, the cup of tea, paintergate, speeding, who gives a flying @#$%, it's all just noise.

One thing that James does have a point on is superannuation. Dumb promise and even dumber to stick by it. Key should use up some of that political capital to alter his position on that, knowing his luck it might even bring in more votes than he loses.

Major von Tempsky
29-09-2015, 11:28 AM
MVT, according to history, National is heading for a near record seven-year losing streak in balancing the budget, they'll need to bluff their way out of another recession by 2017, and they're in the third term of a three-in, three-out series that's well established. Even the affable John Key won't save them in 2017.

The website you mention is run by a board comprised of at least one right-wing think-tank member, and they wouldn't want to show the NZ political summary at the moment.

Colin James with a summary of JK's legacy so far.

Sorry, Colin James doesn't cut any ice with me - I well remember, though just a boy at the time, his heavily biased pro-Labour write-up of Nordmeyer's Black Budget of 1958. You overlook, it's actually what John Key decides to do that counts not your cr*ppy commentators!

Sgt Pepper
29-09-2015, 12:38 PM
Sorry, Colin James doesn't cut any ice with me - I well remember, though just a boy at the time, his heavily biased pro-Labour write-up of Nordmeyer's Black Budget of 1958. You overlook, it's actually what John Key decides to do that counts not your cr*ppy commentators!

I know Major, the audacity of the Second Labour Government trying to balance the budget. They get elected and what do do? balanced budgets, typical.
As for that last Labour Government all we got was surplus after surplus. They even had the temerity to sign a Free Trade Agreement with China! I mean every thinking person knows that Flags ,Pandas and Ponytails are much more important

craic
29-09-2015, 01:34 PM
Of course Pandas are more important. And that is why a backroom conspiracy at Labour, are this very moment preparing to replace their leader with a panda. The idea of a Panda park and zoo with a pair of pandas, With the larger one to be named the Labour leader and the other could be named Corbyn. The soft cuddly nature of the Labour leader ( and the fact that he actually said nothing form one day to the next) would attract crowds and hopefully those who came to see it would also take time to have look at the others residents of the Labour Zoo.

elZorro
29-09-2015, 05:42 PM
Of course Pandas are more important. And that is why a backroom conspiracy at Labour, are this very moment preparing to replace their leader with a panda. The idea of a Panda park and zoo with a pair of pandas, With the larger one to be named the Labour leader and the other could be named Corbyn. The soft cuddly nature of the Labour leader ( and the fact that he actually said nothing form one day to the next) would attract crowds and hopefully those who came to see it would also take time to have look at the others residents of the Labour Zoo.

Craic, I think you're confused, mate. It's John Key who is pushing the panda thing. An old friend of mine, a retired farmer, said to me today that he's about had enough of John Key. Thinks he's lost the plot.

craic
29-09-2015, 07:03 PM
Problem with your old friends, farmers and other is that they have been wrong for so long that they couldn't tell a panda from a wombat.

elZorro
29-09-2015, 08:39 PM
Problem with your old friends, farmers and other is that they have been wrong for so long that they couldn't tell a panda from a wombat.

This friend is very hardworking and shrewd, has done well and is a good person, so I value his judgement.

In June last year, Treasury had this prediction for how the net core crown debt will look in the future. They predicted that debt will continue to rise until June 2018, which is after the next election, and then magically start to drop.

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/parl-support/research-papers/00PLEcoC5141/core-crown-debt

Note that if you count the super fund assets (which technically are not the Crown's), Labour had put NZ into a net positive position as far as debt goes, in June 2008. It was all uphill from there. Now Crown core debt will rise to about $67 billion before starting to reduce. We'll have an annual update on that within a month.

The net worth attributable to the Crown reached (probably) an all-time high of $105 billion in the 2007/2008 year under Labour.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/financialstatements/yearend/jun14/11.htm

It reduced sharply for the next four years, bottomed at $60billion (meaning $10,000 less for every NZer) and has now started feebly rising again, to about $75bill by June 2014. This was achieved not by repaying debt as Labour had done, but in the face of additional debt, the assets on the Crown books were revalued upwards. Some due to inflation, I guess roading was revalued too. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Despite this, there is no denying that the Crown, as a business, has trended backwards since 2008, and is only showing a weak recovery more recently. This looks likely to stall with the dairy cheque and other commodity price falls. I don't know how many more metrics are needed, to show what an abysmal job National have done on our economy, and are going to perpetuate, until thankfully they are booted out.

elZorro
30-09-2015, 06:41 AM
At least Bill English seems to be looking hard at the housing sector in Auckland. Of course, high net immigration endorsed by National, is what kicked on the price spiral there.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11520936&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+3 0+September+2015

A thawing of relations with Fiji is welcome, although it has taken a year to organise. And our new involvement in Iraq with 2 years of training to be provided, seems sensible. Even if all the while, the armed forces will have a sinking cap. A small amount of money thrown at the homeless people in Auckland.

All this is tinkering at the edges, the main policies go on to have the biggest long-term effect. We're watching.

Sgt Pepper
30-09-2015, 09:32 AM
Todays Herald

Mr Key said he was" unaware Mr Brownlee was delivering the
panda proposal".

yeah.right

Daytr
30-09-2015, 10:08 AM
Good to see National setting aside a large ocean sanctuary (not sure what the difference is between this & a maritime reserve?) at the Kermadecs. Its one of the first major conservation moves in 8 years by this government. However this does then not give them carte blanche to open up the rest of NZs seabed to mining and oil & gas. I was very unsurprised that National kept re-iterating the economic cost of setting aside the reserve, it must have been said three times when the reserve was announced. No mention of the economic gain by preserving fisheries... Anyway credit, where credit is due its a good thing that has been done here.

westerly
30-09-2015, 10:42 AM
Problem with your old friends, farmers and other is that they have been wrong for so long that they couldn't tell a panda from a wombat.

You spend too much time down the back with the leprechauns Craic.:)

westerly

craic
30-09-2015, 11:28 AM
Not so. They come up to the house for a drop sometimes. I happen to be a believer in the nether world.

RGR367
30-09-2015, 01:32 PM
National and/or Labour may or may not like it, but Edward Snowden joined Twitter today :D

elZorro
30-09-2015, 01:53 PM
Good to see National setting aside a large ocean sanctuary (not sure what the difference is between this & a maritime reserve?) at the Kermadecs. Its one of the first major conservation moves in 8 years by this government. However this does then not give them carte blanche to open up the rest of NZs seabed to mining and oil & gas. I was very unsurprised that National kept re-iterating the economic cost of setting aside the reserve, it must have been said three times when the reserve was announced. No mention of the economic gain by preserving fisheries... Anyway credit, where credit is due its a good thing that has been done here.

Yes, I agree with that. I've never been there, but it looks magical. One end of the islands is not protected, there are rare earth minerals known to be there. Only $165,000 of fish caught there annually now, by my reckoning that would be about 1.65 people's wages. Not a lot to lose. Can't help but suggest it was probably a good idea kickstarted by the Greens or Labour before 2008. Will wait to be informed.

craic
30-09-2015, 02:27 PM
Highly unlikely, none of the residents there have ever been known to vote for Labour or the Greens. I wonder how long it will take for one of the tribes to make claims on it under the Treaty of Waitangi?

westerly
30-09-2015, 04:25 PM
Not so. They come up to the house for a drop sometimes. I happen to be a believer in the nether world.

Perhaps you should watch the number of drops:)

westerly

elZorro
30-09-2015, 09:04 PM
Not so. They come up to the house for a drop sometimes. I happen to be a believer in the nether world.

Yep Craic, they were great, weren't they? Especially Annie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE82oke8BWM

How about this classic, inspired by a throwaway line from Robert Muldoon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HVogejKx_c

elZorro
01-10-2015, 06:54 AM
Fran O'Sullivan on the Lochinver deal.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-business-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501241&objectid=11520988&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+1+ October+2015

That station is just too iconic, and even for National (Bill English), it was a step too far. At least that's one decent decision. I'm glad it wasn't John Key's to make.

craic
01-10-2015, 07:15 AM
Lochinver is a large station but there are others half the size and twice as good from a farming perspective. The Chinese could buy a couple of those without raising too many eyebrows.

Daytr
01-10-2015, 08:10 AM
New tax laws on overseas property purchases come into effect today.
Apparently Chinese buyers have been largely absent in recent weeks from auctions etc.
Amasing this buying with dodgy money was allowed to continue for so long.
Now Bill English is worried about a housing collapse from the bubble they have created with their record immigration numbers and not reigning in foreign buyers much, much earlier.

elZorro
01-10-2015, 08:04 PM
Lochinver is a large station but there are others half the size and twice as good from a farming perspective. The Chinese could buy a couple of those without raising too many eyebrows.

I quite agree, Craic. I suspect far too many farming people in NZ have some sort of a connection to Lochinver, it's accessible, and it's always been there.

Steven Joyce is away overseas, sorting out the panda issue. Again, Labour get to score some points. It'll start hurting soon.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1509/S00507/defence-minister-not-panda-pimp.htm

Daytr: Mike Hosking gets slapped on the hand with a wet bus ticket for laying into the waitress at the centre of Pony-tail-gate - on prime-time TV. He used that position to do all he could, to help the PM. Pity he didn't seem to know many of the facts. It's never stopped him before.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/72551742/ponytailgate-bsa-rules-against-mike-hosking

One really good comment:


TV one just continues to make mistakes. Those who think he is a tosser, may snigger at some of his diatribes, but allowing someone like Mike Hosking to have an unbridled 'rant' at the end of each show is just asking for trouble. They are advertising their bias through a right wing mouthpiece and it was bound to bite back. Hosking has been allowed to slander the good name of a young woman who was poorly treated by those who are supposed to be there to support and protect her and it is not the first time he has used this platform for his own ends. This behaviour, which has become commonplace during JK's reign, allows for those in power to deliberately try to sway public opinion - as he himself has done with the flag debate for example - and manipulate and drown out those who do not have an equal voice. Hosking is the wrong person to give this sort of power to, as he will abuse it.

Daytr
01-10-2015, 11:43 PM
Yeah I saw that Ez. Hosking makes me sick. So much ego, so little conscience.

elZorro
02-10-2015, 06:28 AM
Yeah I saw that Ez. Hosking makes me sick. So much ego, so little conscience.

He'll go too far one day, hopefully this side of 2017.

Have a look at this charting software - every political poll in NZ over the last few years - in a scatter plot and colour coded with references. It's fascinating to see the voting pattern for Labour tighten right down in late 2014 (Crosby-Textor and some kneejerk Labour decisions helped with that), now it's bouncing back. National is on a distinct trend downwards. NZ First is improving, as are the Greens.

http://andrewtzchendata.pythonanywhere.com/polls

Yes, I thought so, the Kermadecs safe haven was Labour policy in 2014. Sometimes, Labour doesn't even need to be in office to get its good policies enacted.

http://thestandard.org.nz/key-pinches-labours-kermadec-sanctuary-policy/

Daytr
02-10-2015, 09:01 AM
So when is the minister for Corrections going to resign?
More assertions of Serco run prisons out of control, this time the new Wiri prison.
Criminals on home detention regularly freeing themselves of their monitoring devices & complete failure of one of NZs most heinous criminals that managed to run a business from prison & then skip the country! Key continues to standby him! Keys judgment is called into question again and again. Perhaps he could call on an ex cop & his old mate Mike Sabin. After all he appointed him head of the Law & Order select committee when he was under police investigation!
He also has another known dubious character of McCully representing NZs interests overseas. Is it because he knows McCully will do anything? Pay anyone off if need be.
I think Key went to the Seb Blatter school of ethics.

Major von Tempsky
02-10-2015, 10:23 AM
You two have a rather exaggerated view of non events. "Pony tail gate" my eye, doesn't even register in the polls, no harm done and it's all blown over.

In the meantime you must have felt quite sick (I chortled) to see your heroine Helen Clark endorsing John Key's efforts with TPPA! :-)

Sgt Pepper
02-10-2015, 10:34 AM
You two have a rather exaggerated view of non events. "Pony tail gate" my eye, doesn't even register in the polls, no harm done and it's all blown over.

In the meantime you must have felt quite sick (I chortled) to see your heroine Helen Clark endorsing John Key's efforts with TPPA! :-)

Major
I note John Key " had no idea" that Gerry B was going to personally deliver the "Panda Proposal" whilst in China. In your opinion what is the most likely scenario
1. He is telling the truth
2' He is being economical with the truth.

Daytr
02-10-2015, 10:43 AM
I assume those digs are pointed at me MVT.
Well actually I didn't see it, so that would be a no.

As neither are the events I referred to I suggest you stick to the script rather than writing your own novella. ;-)

If you think the debacle that is Mt Eden prison & now it seems Wiri is a non event then probably nothing that goes wrong under National is an 'event' according to your perspective.
After all you wrote off Helen Clark whilst the rest of the world holds her in high esteem.
Or putting a minister under police investigation as head of the law & order committee a non event.
Was the resulting bi-election and huge voter flip away from what was a national safe seat to a devastating loss also a non event? LOL

Key has made bad choices and shown poor judgement again and again


You two have a rather exaggerated view of non events. "Pony tail gate" my eye, doesn't even register in the polls, no harm done and it's all blown over.

In the meantime you must have felt quite sick (I chortled) to see your heroine Helen Clark endorsing John Key's efforts with TPPA! :-)

Sgt Pepper
02-10-2015, 10:50 AM
I assume those digs are pointed at me MVT.
Well actually I didn't see it, so that would be a no.

As neither are the events I referred to I suggest you stick to the script rather than writing your own novella. ;-)

If you think the debacle that is Mt Eden prison & now it seems Wiri is a non event then probably nothing that goes wrong under National is an 'event' according to your perspective.
After all you wrote off Helen Clark whilst the rest of the world holds her in high esteem.
Or putting a minister under police investigation as head of the law & order committee a non event.
Was the resulting bi-election and huge voter flip away from what was a national safe seat to a devastating loss also a non event? LOL

Key has made bad choices and shown poor judgement again and again

Daytr

don't expect a prompt reply from the Major, he is busy reading Mein Kampf at the moment.

craic
02-10-2015, 03:00 PM
I can say as an insider, the problems in the criminal justice system are not, and never were closely related to any political party. The biggest balls up in y thirty years was made by Labour putting two and two together and getting Twenty-two. I haven't got time for the details here as my next race is about to go and there are more important things than politics.

winner69
02-10-2015, 06:30 PM
EZ, you'll love this

What Key has achieved in response to Turnbull's praise of him.

http://croakingcassandra.com/2015/09/15/it-was-a-short-list-i-couldnt-think-of-any/

elZorro
02-10-2015, 08:46 PM
EZ, you'll love this

What Key has achieved in response to Turnbull's praise of him.

http://croakingcassandra.com/2015/09/15/it-was-a-short-list-i-couldnt-think-of-any/

Strange blog, I think this Reddell guy is an ACT voter, highly qualified of course, and he means well, but I don't see a NZ I'd like, in his ideas.

Daytr
06-10-2015, 06:04 AM
Did you feel that? You just got screwed by your own government. TPPA deal struck, but still no details. But apparently every country is better off....
Yeah right. Fonterra is already saying its not good enough.

macduffy
06-10-2015, 10:42 AM
Relax, Daytr. I know we 4.5m Kiwis are special but we'll find out the details in due course, along with the other 800m lesser mortals from other countries.
NZ was never going to get "enough" on the dairy front - but it's a start to have concluded a first, albeit limited deal with several important trading partners.

RGR367
06-10-2015, 12:15 PM
Re TPPA, NBR has the breakdowns on savings by industry. Those who complaint about TPPA not being good enough might just want to read those savings on tariffs alone. Of course those red in the face might still want to see the details so they can complain some more later on.

Major von Tempsky
06-10-2015, 03:07 PM
Yep it's a significant plus over what we would have had if we had stayed out.

I look forward to Jane Kelsey belatedly giving some overdue attention to her students instead of being a full time pointless agitator.

elZorro
06-10-2015, 04:04 PM
Yep it's a significant plus over what we would have had if we had stayed out.

I look forward to Jane Kelsey belatedly giving some overdue attention to her students instead of being a full time pointless agitator.

MVT, does that mean that you realise she knows what she's talking about? Makes her arguments difficult to put down I guess.

Daytr
06-10-2015, 06:18 PM
Well I would suggest due course was before an irreversible or an unchangeable deal was signed. But that's just me wanting a transparent democracy.
In the States they will now have 60 days of open debate before perhaps voting to pass it into law.
I love the way they say Kiwis wont be paying anything more for medications because the government will subsidise any increase.
Who do they think funds Pharmac! Our taxes.

Happy to wait for more details as all we have been allowed to hear so far is the spin from those who have a vested interest.

I did hear a comment that the government will no longer be able to veto foreign purchases of land from any of the included countries...
Great!

Perhaps if those who did complain RGR367 kept the government on their toes and helped ensure it wasn't "as bad as it could have been" to quote the Herald.

If it works out well for NZ, great, but our biggest exporter isn't saying that are they.

As the saying goes, the devil will be in the detail.


Relax, Daytr. I know we 4.5m Kiwis are special but we'll find out the details in due course, along with the other 800m lesser mortals from other countries.
NZ was never going to get "enough" on the dairy front - but it's a start to have concluded a first, albeit limited deal with several important trading partners.

elZorro
06-10-2015, 07:08 PM
From the Greens today, they asked people to share it around.

https://www.facebook.com/nzgreenparty/videos/vb.10779081371/10153049803306372/?type=2&theater

Jane Kelsey: for MVT.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1510/S00101/national-government-betrays-nzers-in-tppa-deal.htm

elZorro
07-10-2015, 06:09 AM
Rodney Hide had an article about Judith Collins recently. He reckons she'd be keen to try for the top job, but his conclusion was that she wouldn't have the numbers... not now anyway.


Crusher throwing her hat in the ring
The tom-toms are beating and, as incredible as it may sound, around National Party campfires the leadership of New Zealand’s most popular Prime Minister is being questioned.

Key is keen on running up a new flag. Collins wants to stick with our old one. Key is keen on polling. Collins is dismissive. “Sometimes I think you have just got to stand for something,” she wrote in a column contemptuous of present-day vanilla politics.

National members naturally wonder why they are winning elections only to implement Labour Party policy, especially when it involves dumping the flag under which Kiwis have fought and died and that has united our country for generations. It is fertile ground on which to sow discontent, especially among diehard supporters.
Collins is setting herself apart. She is the only National MP to have a political brand distinct from the present Key-led party. That’s no mean achievement.


Look at what a bit of colour can do. OK, I think it's been photoshopped too. But there is that nasty streak in the Nats, can't deny it. Remember this?

http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2014/02/images-and-cartoons-relating-to-metiria-tureis-clothes-and-racism.html

Daytr
07-10-2015, 06:32 AM
National already on the attack blaming Labour for this, that & the other thing re Trade deals.
If they are resorting to blaming a party that has been in power for 7 years & a deal they have negotiated shows how desperate they are.
NZ cannot stop member countries of the TPPA buying property in NZ, however apparently Australia has maintained their rules around foreign investors.
NZ sold to the highest bidder. Just great National.
They were so desperate to get a deal signed they have signed a deal that compromises NZs current ability to govern in the best interests of New Zealanders.

elZorro
07-10-2015, 06:52 AM
I agree Daytr, that area about foreign ownership looks to be the one we need a lot more detail on, it is just opening the country up for a fire sale anytime the economy dips. There's just not enough investment money floating around in NZ for bigger businesses and properties.

macduffy
07-10-2015, 03:04 PM
You've read Jane Kelsey's view on the outcome of the TPPA deal. Here's Charles Finny's.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11524659

BlackPeter
07-10-2015, 03:25 PM
National already on the attack blaming Labour for this, that & the other thing re Trade deals.
If they are resorting to blaming a party that has been in power for 7 years & a deal they have negotiated shows how desperate they are.
NZ cannot stop member countries of the TPPA buying property in NZ, however apparently Australia has maintained their rules around foreign investors.
NZ sold to the highest bidder. Just great National.
They were so desperate to get a deal signed they have signed a deal that compromises NZs current ability to govern in the best interests of New Zealanders.

Are you sure? I guess its normal in a negotiations that you have to give as well as take - and what we've heard so far sounds like that the benefits for NZ are larger than the drawbacks.

Obviously - being excluded from the TPPA would have been quite negative for a minnow like NZ ... and I remember it was Labour which first gave up some of NZ's sovereignty when signing the Free Trade Agreement with China.

So - what really is that bad about it, other that it was not your preferred party negotiating it?

I hear even Helen Clark is supporting the deal ...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72604363/former-pm-clark-backs-controversial-tppa-trade-deal

Funny that - did she just change the party - or is she by now so grown up that she is even able to back the right thing even if it was not Labour negotiating it?

Sgt Pepper
07-10-2015, 03:29 PM
Never mind about the TPPA
John Key has secretly visited Iraq it has been disclosed. It is too early to say but this could be the end of the ISIS threat. Seeing John in his Flak jacket, dark glasses and hands on his hips he looked the part. He may impart his vast military tactical knowledge while there, as apparently he may have watched the Guns of Navarone when he was a youngster. It must make Crosby Textor very proud.
PS: I wonder if he is allowed to keep his NZ Army cap?

neopoleII
07-10-2015, 07:38 PM
""Seeing John in his Flak jacket, dark glasses and hands on his hips he looked the part""
if john doesnt win his fourth term we can look forward to seeing little, winnie and the co green leaders having a shot at an iraqi photo shoot.
little could pull off a really cool soldier look but the other 3 leaders of a 4 way primeministership would struggle.

neopoleII
07-10-2015, 07:47 PM
on another note.... anyone who thinks we can be outside of the TPPA or for that matter
thinks we can or could get a better deal is not looking at what is happening in the real world.
having said that.... it saddens me greatly that the world has found us and uses it economic and political might
to dictate terms over us.
how this changes the future of NZ im not sure, but change is coming and we best adapt to it and try to profit from it.
in the old days weapons were used to secure new things.
but in this modern age.........

Sgt Pepper
07-10-2015, 07:50 PM
Neopole

Nah, Winston would send Ron Mark. Ron has considerable military experience both in NZ and Qatar

BlackPeter
07-10-2015, 08:14 PM
Never mind about the TPPA
John Key has secretly visited Iraq it has been disclosed. It is too early to say but this could be the end of the ISIS threat. Seeing John in his Flak jacket, dark glasses and hands on his hips he looked the part. He may impart his vast military tactical knowledge while there, as apparently he may have watched the Guns of Navarone when he was a youngster. It must make Crosby Textor very proud.
PS: I wonder if he is allowed to keep his NZ Army cap?

Are you sure John stops with just ending the ISIS threat? I guess there are bigger nuts to crack for him in the region while he is there: Russia needs his guidance and help to keep their fighter planes in future out of NATO airspace (maybe a Trimble GPS could help?), the US needs help to avoid bombing raids on civil hospitals (a pair of glasses for the pilots?) ... and the Iraqi soldiers need clear direction what to do when the enemy attacks (No, NO, NO - NOT running away, as they tend to do ....). I am sure John will resolve these minor issues by lunchtime - maybe he could use the rest of the day to teach Assad the haka - wouldn't this be fun?

Sad state of affairs .... instead of sending more than hundred soldiers plus our PM to Iraq to increase the mess, should we better use the money to accept a meaningful number of Syrian refugees who are fleeing from the very war we support in NZ. Yes, I know, we just teach the "good" guys - do we?

elZorro
07-10-2015, 10:37 PM
I must have been asleep during June this year, when Cameron Slater was caught out trying to get a hacker to bust into "The Standard" website. He paid the money but didn't get the goods (list of contributors and commentators) as it seems to be well protected. Some of the posts must have got up his funder's nose.

http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/more-dirty-politics-2015060612#axzz3cElION6D

elZorro
08-10-2015, 06:59 AM
Bernard Hickey on the TPPA.

http://www.interest.co.nz/property/78005/mfat-says-tpp-effectively-prevents-future-ban-foreign-buying-property-tpp-rules-also?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+8+ October+2015

Bryan Gould has an opinion piece in the Herald, and short form here. Excellent cartoon from Emmerson.

http://thestandard.org.nz/gould-on-the-tpp/

elZorro
08-10-2015, 12:16 PM
""Seeing John in his Flak jacket, dark glasses and hands on his hips he looked the part""
if john doesnt win his fourth term we can look forward to seeing little, winnie and the co green leaders having a shot at an iraqi photo shoot.
little could pull off a really cool soldier look but the other 3 leaders of a 4 way primeministership would struggle.

NeopoleII, perhaps the irony has escaped you - National can only properly govern with the help of ACT (one elected MP), United Future (one elected MP) and the Maori Party. That's four parties. It must get confusing, all those different ideas, policies and agendas. Your argument would be that this has worked out fine.

I'd be happier with a straight shooter as the PM.

neopoleII
08-10-2015, 07:05 PM
gee...... elz you got banned....... that is not like you....
regarding national and its partners...... they invited the smaller parties to join them and formed a government.
they could of stepped back and let ALL the minority parties try and form a government.... but...
ALL the smaller parties couldnt make it work.
JK is petty straight compared to the other options.
being a democratic country ..... there is nothing stopping labour, the greens, nz first, and the maori party joining forces and become the new government.
but the said four parties have too many differences.
the fact that the maori party is siding with national should be a wakeup call to all left wing voters.
as i have said many times.... i dont vote national or labour anymore.
and i do believe in mmp.
i also believe that most kiwis are good people and vote for what is right instead of voting from the wallet.
re..... we have a "hard" center right government propped up by a visually left wing party ..... the maori party.
the only good thing i can see from a 4th term of national is that labour will be forced to clean house of its radical leftism and
join the majority of centralist kiwis.
if anything...... this is what your nemesis "textor" has played on.... the left wing fell off the left cliff.
the right wing moved to the center.
all the other parties a swimming around.
i love this country as much as anyone, and am by no means rich, and earn just enough to get by, so policy is important to me
as much as anyone.
hope to see you back soon ELZ

Daytr
11-10-2015, 08:51 PM
JK is pretty straight? Really! I can think of multiple times he has bare faced lied to the NZ public.
He's one of the great fence sitters I'll give him that.

Another one of his pet projects that will squander millions, on two pandas from China!
Is he losing the plot?
He cuts the budget to our own Conservation Department, implements a disastrous restructure that then gets reversed, wasting more tax payer money & now wants to spend millions a year on two pandas! How about trying to save our own wild life. There are less Maui Dolphins than there are pandas!

That and his ego trip on changing the flag that no one really gives a toss about, other than wasting another $26M!

winner69
14-10-2015, 12:22 PM
EZ, Bill did it

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/73009393/nz-government-records-414-million-surplus

winner69
15-10-2015, 11:37 AM
Canada have elections next week

Conservatives look like they could be heading to a defeat

EZ, taking a beating because the populous have had enough and showing their resentment of the neo-liberal policies that Harper has been pushing through.to some extent mirrors NZ

EZ, do labour look at how they can learn from such events.A yer or so ago nobody would have believed Harper would struggle to stay in power. Unfortunately for labour though it s not their type of party that causes change

BIRMANBOY
15-10-2015, 01:47 PM
Winner, that's just cruel...you know EZ cannot respond if he's banned..are you trying to manoeuvre him into some sort of self imposed breakdown. He must be bursting at the seams. LOL Cold Turkey and we are relishing "Thanksgiving".
Canada have elections next week

Conservatives look like they could be heading to a defeat

EZ, taking a beating because the populous have had enough and showing their resentment of the neo-liberal policies that Harper has been pushing through.to some extent mirrors NZ

EZ, do labour look at how they can learn from such events.A yer or so ago nobody would have believed Harper would struggle to stay in power. Unfortunately for labour though it s not their type of party that causes change

winner69
15-10-2015, 01:49 PM
Winner, that's just cruel...you know EZ cannot respond if he's banned..are you trying to manoeuvre him into some sort of self imposed breakdown. He must be bursting at the seams. LOL Cold Turkey and we are relishing "Thanksgiving".

What, EZ banned? I been away for a while and didn't know.

Last person I would have thought to be banned.

Banned for long?

BIRMANBOY
15-10-2015, 02:21 PM
Oh really......ok, if you insist......Not long enough....OOOOh bite your tongue you spiteful wretch. I believe reading somewhere Admin said 3 months..complaining about being severely tested and along the line of..."see how you like that, you dismal specimen of pond scum"
What, EZ banned? I been away for a while and didn't know.

Last person I would have thought to be banned.

Banned for long?

Daytr
16-10-2015, 08:53 AM
Lets just review what Bill has achieved here.
A technical surplus of $400M.
Whilst core revenue was still in deficit of core expenditure by $200M.
Its no coincidence that there have been claims from various departments of under spending in the lead up to this 'surplus'.
Government debt has increased by another $700M!
There was a substantial uptick in tax revenue for the period, something that Bill has already said wont be repeated & in fact fully expects the tax take to take a substantial hit.
Bill has also said that's it, box ticked, now back to normal operating procedure for the National governments and deliver deficits going forward.
They will have deficits but still deliver election year tax cuts despite knowing there is going t be a hit to government revenue.
That is straight out irresponsible.

There are plenty of ways to increase the tax take by just enforcing the intent of the current laws and closing the loop holes that their support base continually exploit. Also ensuring that international companies play their fair share of tax in NZ.



EZ, Bill did it

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/73009393/nz-government-records-414-million-surplus

BlackPeter
16-10-2015, 10:24 AM
Lets just review what Bill has achieved here.
A technical surplus of $400M.
Whilst core revenue was still in deficit of core expenditure by $200M.
Its no coincidence that there have been claims from various departments of under spending in the lead up to this 'surplus'.
Government debt has increased by another $700M!
There was a substantial uptick in tax revenue for the period, something that Bill has already said wont be repeated & in fact fully expects the tax take to take a substantial hit.
Bill has also said that's it, box ticked, now back to normal operating procedure for the National governments and deliver deficits going forward.
They will have deficits but still deliver election year tax cuts despite knowing there is going t be a hit to government revenue.
That is straight out irresponsible.

There are plenty of ways to increase the tax take by just enforcing the intent of the current laws and closing the loop holes that their support base continually exploit. Also ensuring that international companies play their fair share of tax in NZ.

No surprises here - I guess for some of the one eyed posters here anything a National led is delivering must be bad - whatever it is - right?

Wasn't this the same people whining for years about the National led government writing deficits? Now they are in a surplus, but obviously it is not good enough. Of course - a government composed out of Green / NZF / Mana / Labour would have done so much better, no matter what they would have delivered (if anything) - wouldn't they?

Same with TPPA - Labour actually started the negotiations after making a number of earlier free trade agreements and in this process giving parts of our sovereignty away. Of course - If a Labour led government is doing that, than it must be good.

However given that the TPPA talks have been concluded under a National led government it all must be bad - not according to the "gold standard" some forever left leaning dreamers would have wished for. Keep dreaming ... and keep demonstrating how disingenuous the political Left is these days.

Some Labour politicians are even proposing that they would stay in the TPPA but not regard the terms ... how do you call people doing these things?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11529206

Shame on them! There used to be a time when (many) of the people of the Green and Left used to be naive, but at least honest - seems like times are changing and they lost the latter attribute.

Poor New Zealand, your opposition parties are a shambles ...

Daytr
16-10-2015, 08:56 PM
Is there anything untrue in what I posted BP? Its an honest appraisal, much of it quoting Bill English.
We are still yet to see the text of the TPPA. What we have seen is spin that every country is apparently better off.
Ask yourself, how can that be? I would really like to understand how all countries will increase their GDP by signing this agreement.
Anyway lets see when we know the full picture as we still know very little other than the cost of Pharmac will increase & the Government will not be able to prevent any foreign land purchases, however the likes of Australia have retained that sovereign right.

Daytr
17-10-2015, 09:17 AM
BP, the article from Paul Quinn, is cynical & simplistic. Describing opposition to the TPPA with extremes such as Marxist philosophy is just poor journalism. I for one certainly don't like the fact that NZ will not have any avenue of vetoing foreign land purchases. NZ is a small country & will be at the mercy of large corporations, private equity and the like with huge economic resources. Australia weren't stupid enough to agree to the same folly.
I suggest the TPPA will further National's agenda on the corporatization of government services. National have concentrated on areas where those effected are vulnerable, being prisoners, state housing & mental health. Those without a strong voice to oppose or advocate, let alone publicize what impact these changes are having on these vulnerable members of society. If it wasn't for Kelvin Davis, its unlikely we would even be aware of the complete negligent management of Mt Eden prison by SERCO, something National and the Minister clearly wasn't aware of & its disgraceful that he hasn't either resigned or been sacked.



No surprises here - I guess for some of the one eyed posters here anything a National led is delivering must be bad - whatever it is - right?

Wasn't this the same people whining for years about the National led government writing deficits? Now they are in a surplus, but obviously it is not good enough. Of course - a government composed out of Green / NZF / Mana / Labour would have done so much better, no matter what they would have delivered (if anything) - wouldn't they?

Same with TPPA - Labour actually started the negotiations after making a number of earlier free trade agreements and in this process giving parts of our sovereignty away. Of course - If a Labour led government is doing that, than it must be good.

However given that the TPPA talks have been concluded under a National led government it all must be bad - not according to the "gold standard" some forever left leaning dreamers would have wished for. Keep dreaming ... and keep demonstrating how disingenuous the political Left is these days.

Some Labour politicians are even proposing that they would stay in the TPPA but not regard the terms ... how do you call people doing these things?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11529206

Shame on them! There used to be a time when (many) of the people of the Green and Left used to be naive, but at least honest - seems like times are changing and they lost the latter attribute.

Poor New Zealand, your opposition parties are a shambles ...

blackcap
17-10-2015, 09:32 AM
Ask yourself, how can that be? I would really like to understand how all countries will increase their GDP by signing this agreement.
.

Simple Econ 101 really. All countries can increase their utility by free trade.

BlackPeter
17-10-2015, 10:57 AM
...
We are still yet to see the text of the TPPA. What we have seen is spin that every country is apparently better off.
Ask yourself, how can that be? I would really like to understand how all countries will increase their GDP by signing this agreement.
Anyway lets see when we know the full picture as we still know very little other than the cost of Pharmac will increase & the Government will not be able to prevent any foreign land purchases, however the likes of Australia have retained that sovereign right.

Sure - lets wait ... seems more sensible than throwing mud at everything which moves ... as long as a "National led government" is involved.

However your comment above (Every country signing that agreement will increase their GDP - how can that be?) is telling. See daytr, while the Left is still stuck in the fight of the classes - with the idea that the people important to them (the Left) can only can survive by taking a bigger piece of the cake away from others (be that the "capitalists", the so called "well off" or just anybody stupid enough to pay taxes) and that way shrinking the cake, the rest of the world did learn that it is a better idea to first grow the cake before distributing it.

Never heard about win-win?

Sgt Pepper
17-10-2015, 12:30 PM
Sure - lets wait ... seems more sensible than throwing mud at everything which moves ... as long as a "National led government" is involved.

However your comment above (Every country signing that agreement will increase their GDP - how can that be?) is telling. See daytr, while the Left is still stuck in the fight of the classes - with the idea that the people important to them (the Left) can only can survive by taking a bigger piece of the cake away from others (be that the "capitalists", the so called "well off" or just ) anybody stupid enough to pay taxesnd that way shrinking the cake, the rest of the world did learn that it is a better idea to first grow the cake before distributing it.

Never heard about win-win?

BP

"anybody stupid enough to pay taxes"

I am intrigued with your comment and would be interested if you could expand on it

Daytr
17-10-2015, 01:41 PM
BP, I have certainly had exposure to win/wins as it is how I have always tried to deliver to my clients in the many large transactions I have delivered over the years. All I have heard is a figure saying we will be better off with nothing to back it up. However I do know that Pharmac will cost more & we have given up the right to veto foreign property purchases. Neither of these are wins for NZ. The extension of patents on drugs & IP is hardly extending free trade, in fact quite the opposite. The winners in all this I would suggest will be corporations at the expense of the average citizen.

BlackPeter
17-10-2015, 03:27 PM
BP

"anybody stupid enough to pay taxes"

I am intrigued with your comment and would be interested if you could expand on it

Hi Sergeant, I note that you have meddled with the quoted text ... though it looks like that your main action was to screw up the content I put into brackets (including the statement you quoted) - Why?

If you look at the original statement in context (i.e. put the brackets back where they belong), than the whole thing might be clearer ... though admittedly - irony is a difficult thing to convey ... particularly in writing

What I tried to convey is that net tax payers (i.e. people paying more taxes than they receive benefits) must feel stupid if we see how they are treated by the Left ... not just milked by the system anyway, but consistently exposed to the marvellous and ingenious ideas of any budding Left-wing politician: "oh, just lets increase the taxes of the performers so that we can transfer still more money through an inefficient bureaucracy to the non performers".

BTW - I consider myself as one of these people (paying more taxes than receiving benefits) ... and so it was all my life. No intention to offend or harm honest tax payers ...

Does this help?

Daytr
17-10-2015, 03:46 PM
Wasn't it National that increased GST BP? I would prefer to see a government managing its finances responsibly and reducing debt rather than committing to election bribes in 2017 whilst continually increasing debt. No doubt it will be left to another government to yet again fix what mess National leave behind. In less than 10 years government debt has more than tripled. This will be John Key's legacy.

BlackPeter
17-10-2015, 04:23 PM
Wasn't it National that increased GST BP? I would prefer to see a government managing its finances responsibly and reducing debt rather than committing to election bribes in 2017 whilst continually increasing debt. No doubt it will be left to another government to yet again fix what mess National leave behind. In less than 10 years government debt has more than tripled. This will be John Key's legacy.

Wasn't it Labour that introduced GST daytr?

Not sure whether I get your point ... given that the state clearly has a role to play (even if we both might disagree on how big this role should be), there is obviously a need for (some) taxes to fund this role. Personally would I think that GST is a much fairer tax (i.e. everybody paying according to their consumption) than the envy taxes left governments love to introduce ... to redistribute wealth from performers to non performers ...

And talking about your story about our government debt looking bad - daytr, you sound like a broken record on this subject. Did you take over from EZ?

Which part of "New Zealand's government debt (as percentage of GDP) is quite low compared to other countries" do you not understand?

Here are some examples of public debt vs GDP (all 2012 data, the newest I could find):

Australia: 29.3%
New Zealand: 41.8%
US: 72.5% (would be still higher, if US would use the same measure to acknowledge public debt)
Canada: 84.1%
UK: 90%

NZ does not look too bad in this list - doesn't it? Just remind me - who is responsible for running it? :p

Daytr
17-10-2015, 07:51 PM
I'm not the one who's a broken record its National who keep playing the same tune. Do they really think its Money for nothing....
If they didn't keep on borrowing I wouldn't have to keep on about it.
What was that debt to GDP ratio under Labour ? Half what it is now?
What are you waiting for?
For us to be as bad as those other countries you mention before you wake up?
This debt increase is despite selling billions of dollars of assets, so in reality its net a lot higher without those proceeds.
So BP, are you an advocate of cutting taxes even if it means it will generate deficits and more government debt?

Major von Tempsky
18-10-2015, 06:38 AM
Yawn! One covers all this in Economics I, I recommend you do it.

Firstly, if you have a look at who owns all the Public Debt you'll find that most of it is owned by public agencies such as ACC and KiwiSaver, Superannuation Funds (both NZ and overseas), Insurance Companies, investors that want a good spread of investments including some in a vehicle that would not go bankrupt.

Secondly, public debt is an essential part of a modern well structured economy. The Reserve Bank and Government can operate in it to promote their monetary and economic policy - issue more debt to soak up excess liquidity, buy up debt to stimulate the economy.

If there was no public debt we would be a much smaller very old fashioned economy with a much lower standard od living. Update yourself DayTr.

Daytr
18-10-2015, 10:12 AM
I really do wonder where you got your economics degree MVT. Was it Kelloggs or Sanitarium university?
I am referring to Government debt, not liabilities such as ACCC. Do you really think Kiwi Saver has debt?
Or that Super Funds have debt? Were you sober when posting?
Core government debt has more than trebled through government spending whilst revenue has been in deficit.
Your economics 101 is certainly different to the rest of the world's.
I'm not sure how long you can keep up this act of claiming to be an economist, as for about the 10th time in a row you have displayed a complete lack of understanding.
Anyway MVT, I hope you enjoyed the rugby.
The French have obviously been learning from English (see what I did there. :cool:) on how to post a deficit. Sacre bleu !

macduffy
18-10-2015, 01:44 PM
This "discussion" seems to be going at cross purposes!

Just for starters, MvT's point about Kiwisaver and debt refers to the govt - issued debt held in Kiwisaver accounts on behalf of members. Unless I'm also chasing off on a further tangent!

;)

Daytr
18-10-2015, 05:52 PM
Correct it has & I did misunderstand his post. However justifying an exploding debt situation just so the likes of Kiwi saver have instruments to invest in is hardly justification for continual borrowing and more than trebling gov't debt.

winner69
18-10-2015, 06:23 PM
Harper and the Conservatives under pressure in Canada election. Could well lose

I can see Key sounding off like in 2 years time. Harper at a rally as reported -

Harper’s short speech was characterised by heavy leaning on the word “protect”, but he stuck largely to economic themes.

“It is all about protecting jobs, protecting hardworking families, protecting local businesses,” he began. “We all know that were part of a very unstable global economy … a vote for [the Conservatives] is a vote to protect our jobs.”

He said he wanted to talk about “what Canadians would lose, would risk, if the Liberals form a government”.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/18/canada-elections-stephen-harper-rallies-diehards-in-final-poll-push

Neo-Libs getting their comeuppance with the populous showing their resentment of such policies. Good to see

westerly
18-10-2015, 06:25 PM
Hi Sergeant, I note that you have meddled with the quoted text ... though it looks like that your main action was to screw up the content I put into brackets (including the statement you quoted) - Why?

If you look at the original statement in context (i.e. put the brackets back where they belong), than the whole thing might be clearer ... though admittedly - irony is a difficult thing to convey ... particularly in writing

What I tried to convey is that net tax payers (i.e. people paying more taxes than they receive benefits) must feel stupid if we see how they are treated by the Left ... not just milked by the system anyway, but consistently exposed to the marvellous and ingenious ideas of any budding Left-wing politician: "oh, just lets increase the taxes of the performers so that we can transfer still more money through an inefficient bureaucracy to the non performers".

BTW - I consider myself as one of these people (paying more taxes than receiving benefits) ... and so it was all my life. No intention to offend or harm honest tax payers ...

Does this help?

(be that the "capitalists", the so called "well off" or just anybody stupid enough to pay taxes) and that way shrinking the cake, the rest of the world did learn that it is a better idea to first grow the cake before distributing it.

I think you are being ingenuous in your reply to Sgt. Pepper. Classes, inefficient bureaucracy, performers and non performers. Seems like the usual far right attempt to put down the upstarts from the left who do not believe in survival of the fittest.

Given that you infer the left do not pay taxes but hold their collective hands out for more of the cake, growing the cake seems like a good idea but when one reads that half of the worlds assets are held by just 1% of the population, perhaps one could be forgiven for thinking ( erroneously of course :) ) you have no intention of decreasing your share having paid more tax than you have received in benefits.
As for the TTPA I cannot decide whether it is better to be a poor State of the USA or a peasant in a Chinese Province but I guess we will find out one day as the country is sold off with the secret deal National has negotiated.

westerly

Sgt Pepper
18-10-2015, 11:42 PM
I see that John Key really gave Malcolm Turnbull a bollocking over the detention of New Zealanders in Australia. Poor Malcolm Turnbull, I mean John really turned on the heat, he made his case and bravely went into battle for us, second after second he bravely fought, unfortunately for no result.

I suspect the exchange was more like

John Key: excuse me sir, I am sorry to have to
ask, but would you possibly consider changing your policy just a wee bit

Malcolm Turnbull: NO, now piss off.

Oh well, thinks John, I did try

iceman
19-10-2015, 06:27 AM
I see that John Key really gave Malcolm Turnbull a bollocking over the detention of New Zealanders in Australia. Poor Malcolm Turnbull, I mean John really turned on the heat, he made his case and bravely went into battle for us, second after second he bravely fought, unfortunately for no result.

I suspect the exchange was more like

John Key: excuse me sir, I am sorry to have to
ask, but would you possibly consider changing your policy just a wee bit

Malcolm Turnbull: NO, now piss off.

Oh well, thinks John, I did try

It is detention of people with serious criminal convictions for crimes committed while living in Australia on special Visas.
I think Australia is well within its rights to deal with them as they see fit, whether Kiwis or not,as long as they meet normal human rights standards.

craic
19-10-2015, 10:35 AM
From up here on the Murray River it was interesting to read the Australian side of the detention argument. All they refer to is the legal right to throw out non-citizens who cannot conform to the laws - not a word anywhere about the detention on Christmas Island or other places. And asking if anyone knew the football result (Blacks versus French) caused total confusion because "football" is AFL and the season has finished and Rugby is a place in England.

Daytr
19-10-2015, 05:28 PM
That in a lot of cases is quite incorrect. What special visas are you referring to? My understanding is that applies to anyone that has been given a sentence of just over one year, who isn't an Australian citizen, which could be from multiple minor offences.
The fact these people are being sent to detention centers, quite often thousands of miles away from family and support before being deported is something that Britain did to colonize Australia two hundred years ago! Its not just Kiwis obviously either. Australia's record of in regards detention centers for all people detained is deplorable. In the Howard era they refused entry by the Red Cross which goes against UN convention. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I haven't heard that its changed. Children in detention, families separated and detained for years on end, quite often in very harsh conditions out of the eye of media scrutiny. For a first world country to act this way is shameful.


It is detention of people with serious criminal convictions for crimes committed while living in Australia on special Visas.
I think Australia is well within its rights to deal with them as they see fit, whether Kiwis or not,as long as they meet normal human rights standards.

Daytr
19-10-2015, 05:30 PM
By the way I like Malcolm Turnbull, but this is not a great start. Key, well he is just pathetic.

iceman
20-10-2015, 08:34 AM
That in a lot of cases is quite incorrect. What special visas are you referring to? My understanding is that applies to anyone that has been given a sentence of just over one year, who isn't an Australian citizen, which could be from multiple minor offences.
The fact these people are being sent to detention centers, quite often thousands of miles away from family and support before being deported is something that Britain did to colonize Australia two hundred years ago! Its not just Kiwis obviously either. Australia's record of in regards detention centers for all people detained is deplorable. In the Howard era they refused entry by the Red Cross which goes against UN convention. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I haven't heard that its changed. Children in detention, families separated and detained for years on end, quite often in very harsh conditions out of the eye of media scrutiny. For a first world country to act this way is shameful.

What is quote incorrect about it Daytr ? Are they not all convicted criminals ? None of them are Australian citizens so all have some sort of Visa or authorisation to stay in Australia and have committed serious crimes while doing so.
Labour with Kelvin Davis making a fool of himself are yet again barking up the wrong tree

Major von Tempsky
20-10-2015, 09:38 AM
Don't shed any tears for them. All they have to do is say the word to the authorities and they're on the plane to NZ into the loving arms of their extended whanau where they will be free to do drug dealing, bashing, raping, stealing, domestic abuse until the NZ law catches up with them.

Sgt Pepper
20-10-2015, 10:14 AM
Don't shed any tears for them. All they have to do is say the word to the authorities and they're on the plane to NZ into the loving arms of their extended whanau where they will be free to do drug dealing, bashing, raping, stealing, domestic abuse until the NZ law catches up with them.

Major
You could argue that some of the NZers caught up in this situation may have been let down by their families. When leaving for Australia prior to 2002 they could/should have availed themselves to applying for Australian citizenship, compared to now a relatively straight forward process back them. It would not have compromised their New Zealand citizenship as we permit dual citizenship. Many kiwis leaving to work and reside in Australia have had a false sense of security. Only when things go wrong, e.g. their children enrol for tertiary courses, (non citizens must pay full fees) become unemployed(not entitled to any benefits) etc do they realise the full impact of not being a citizen.

BlackPeter
20-10-2015, 10:37 AM
Major
You could argue that some of the NZers caught up in this situation my have been let down by their families. When leaving for Australia prior to 2002 they could/should have availed themselves to applying for Australian citizenship, compared to now a relatively straight forward process back them. It would not have compromised their New Zealand citizenship as we permit dual citizenship. Many kiwis leaving to work and reside in Australia have had a false sense of security. Only when things go wrong, e.g. their children enrol for tertiary courses, (non citizens must pay full fees) become unemployed(not entitled to any benefits) etc do they realise the full impact of not being a citizen.

Are you saying that there are still people who don't know that Kiwis in Australia are treated as second class people? Don't they read newspapers? Do they have no access to social media in Australia? It is not difficult to find out that while Kiwis have in Australia the duty to pay full taxes, they are not entitled to most of the benefits (including the "benefit" to stay in Australia"), if the realm of Aussie so chooses at their whim.

Australia is happy to suck Kiwis out (take their work and taxes) and than spit them back across the ditch ... but given that everybody knows the rules as well as the Australian attitude, is it obviously easy to avoid for the individual. Maldoon said once that Kiwis emigrating to Australia improve the average intelligence in both countries. Maybe though, the Aussies are just better in hiding there brains ...

The only thing I don't understand is why we don't reciproke the Australian treatment: trim the benefits for Aussies in NZ and kick them out if they misbehave ... - and focus our politicians again on solving our issues instead of whinging about the "unfair" treatment of Kiwi criminals in Australia. Is this really our biggest concern?

Sgt Pepper
20-10-2015, 10:51 AM
BP
Good point about why doesn't NZ reciprocate. Its intriguing. There doesn,t seem any desire on the part of JK to address this

Sgt Pepper
20-10-2015, 12:51 PM
I see the Canadian election looks set to throw out Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper and no doubt will be privately very disappointed with the outcome. A portent for things to come here I think.
I state my proposition again
There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2016/early 2017.

macduffy
20-10-2015, 12:55 PM
All countries tailor their immigration policies to their needs. Aust needed Kiwi immigrants for their mining jobs - amongst others - once, now they don't and are tightening accordingly. NZ still, apparently, needs certain skilled/qualified immigrants and hasn't yet reassessed the need. I expect that this will happen.

As an aside, there seems to be a widespread lack of understanding that Australia is a separate country from NZ. We don't expect any other nation to treat us as "one of them"!

iceman
20-10-2015, 01:49 PM
I see the Canadian election looks set to throw out Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper and no doubt will be privately very disappointed with the outcome. A portent for things to come here I think.
I state my proposition again
There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2016/early 2017.

It will be hard for him as his popularity continues to be sky high, sitting at 40% against Little's 8% according to latest Colmar Brunton poll :-)

artemis
20-10-2015, 01:58 PM
As has been said before, those NZers in detention are there only because they have appealed their deportation. But they can leave right away and continue their appeal from NZ. It was reported that around 30% of appeals are successful. Probably not too many of those are serious criminals though. But still, it is voluntary detention is it not?

Of course incarceration is also voluntary. I read recently that in NZ people appear on average 11 times before they are sent to prison. May be different in Australia.

Daytr
20-10-2015, 02:59 PM
Well they aren't all serious crimes, sometimes they are multiple minor crimes. You also mentioned around human rights. These people as others detained are being transported thousands of miles away interstate etc and being 'detained'. They aren't on special visas they are on the standard visa that all Kiwis go over on & many don't get citizenship. Kelvin Davis has not made a fool of himself at all and it appears many agree with him. I'm not saying & neither is he if the person's 'home' is basically NZ then it makes sense to send them back here, but the blanket approach is poorly thought out & gives no consideration to circumstance. I was also referring to detention generally in Australia which is shameful. They just denied access by one of their own MPs to visit one of the centres and as I said have also denied access by the Red Cross. There are kids, and families separated & 'detained' in quite harsh conditions for years on end.

So there was quite a bit incorrect in regards your post


What is quote incorrect about it Daytr ? Are they not all convicted criminals ? None of them are Australian citizens so all have some sort of Visa or authorisation to stay in Australia and have committed serious crimes while doing so.
Labour with Kelvin Davis making a fool of himself are yet again barking up the wrong tree

Major von Tempsky
20-10-2015, 04:17 PM
I see the Canadian election looks set to throw out Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper and no doubt will be privately very disappointed with the outcome. A portent for things to come here I think.
I state my proposition again
There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2016/early 2017.

"John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper". Come again? No one else has ever observed that. My son and family live in Montreal and I have been over there....the news media silence re Stephen Harper and John Key is absolutely deafening.

The marker for John Key in John Key's mind is not Helen Clark but Keith Holyoake who won 4 elections in a row for National - 1960-1969. JK naturally wants to create a new record, a new marker.

So I state my more logical proposition again

[B] There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2022/early 2023.

Think also Menzies of Australia. Relax Pepper, you fret too much.

(PS You need to have a rethink about the Canadian result means in the light of Canadian history and politics. So far with nearly all the results declared only 4 parties have seats. In Canada the Liberals were the old traditional governing party (think Pierre Trudeau and further back), the Conservatives were the old traditional opposition party, the New Democratic Party are a newish left of centre party, the Bloc Quebecois are a regional party irrelevant to the national scene and then there is the Green Party. The Liberal Party has 174 seats, a return to the old traditional slightly right of centre party of government, the Conservatives have 95 seats, the left wingers have just 32, the Bloc Quebecois just 8 and the Greens just 1. So the NPD and Greens have failed to penetrate. JK and National would relate more easily to Liberal of all those parties. Its another defeat for the Left.)

winner69
23-10-2015, 11:23 AM
John Key #48 on some 'sexy leaders' list

Just ahead of Angela Merkel whose #54

Sgt Pepper
23-10-2015, 02:42 PM
"John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper". Come again? No one else has ever observed that. My son and family live in Montreal and I have been over there....the news media silence re Stephen Harper and John Key is absolutely deafening.

The marker for John Key in John Key's mind is not Helen Clark but Keith Holyoake who won 4 elections in a row for National - 1960-1969. JK naturally wants to create a new record, a new marker.

So I state my more logical proposition again

[B] There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2022/early 2023.

Think also Menzies of Australia. Relax Pepper, you fret too much.

(PS You need to have a rethink about the Canadian result means in the light of Canadian history and politics. So far with nearly all the results declared only 4 parties have seats. In Canada the Liberals were the old traditional governing party (think Pierre Trudeau and further back), the Conservatives were the old traditional opposition party, the New Democratic Party are a newish left of centre party, the Bloc Quebecois are a regional party irrelevant to the national scene and then there is the Green Party. The Liberal Party has 174 seats, a return to the old traditional slightly right of centre party of government, the Conservatives have 95 seats, the left wingers have just 32, the Bloc Quebecois just 8 and the Greens just 1. So the NPD and Greens have failed to penetrate. JK and National would relate more easily to Liberal of all those parties. Its another defeat for the Left.)

Major

you really do have to brush up on your 2oth century history. The Canandian New Democrsts are not a "newish left of centre party" they have been around for 54 years, and have held power in some of the Provincial Governments. As for " another defeat for the left" Well I know the prospect of not having John Key in power after 2017 fills you with dread but just take a deep breath and embrace the future. John Key really wont care you know, he will be in some diplomatic posting somewhere and holidaying in Hawaii.
As for Judith Collins, Paula Bennett, Michael Woodhouse etc, they will be privately delighted and will waive him off at the airport with lots of insincere regret at his departure.

fungus pudding
23-10-2015, 06:52 PM
What did happen to el Zorro?

Sgt Pepper
23-10-2015, 07:09 PM
What did happen to el Zorro?

Don't know, very mysterious. Mind you FP has been missing in action for quite some time.

Baa_Baa
23-10-2015, 07:56 PM
What did happen to el Zorro?

EZ got nuked, for this http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?10363-Missing-Attachments&p=593551&viewfull=1#post593551

Snapper
23-10-2015, 09:48 PM
EZ got nuked, for this http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?10363-Missing-Attachments&p=593551&viewfull=1#post593551

Just had a look at this. How bizarre! One would think that 'government agents' might have bigger fish to fry!

fungus pudding
24-10-2015, 08:06 AM
Just had a look at this. How bizarre! One would think that 'government agents' might have bigger fish to fry!

Paranoia often overlooks bigger fish, allowing minor and imagined concerns to take over.

Sgt Pepper
24-10-2015, 05:09 PM
Just had a look at this. How bizarre! One would think that 'government agents' might have bigger fish to fry!

Government agents are everywhere

craic
25-10-2015, 10:37 AM
Yes, they're called Labour voters.

Daytr
25-10-2015, 02:43 PM
Shame about EZ, he certainly helped lift the tone of this thread.
I see NZs environmental report card was a shocker. This government doesn't give a toss about NZs flora a fauna.
Cuts budgets to things like DOC but wants to spend 10s of millions on two pandas!
Meanwhile a massive number of our own native species face extinction or endangered.
Water quality continues to deteriorate and emissions have grown substantially.
We don't even measure the output of coal powered dairy factories !
National's record in regards the environment is a disgrace.

craic
25-10-2015, 07:25 PM
Tell that to the Huntly coalminers who lost their jobs last week. Or maybe the few thousand Australian who will pay $A32 to visit Adelaide Zoo this week just because there are two Pandas there and this is mating time. My water comes off the rooves of house and sheds through a pile leaves, possum droppings, bird droppings and maybe some rat droppings into a tank and on to the house unfiltered. We drink it and remain healthy but not as healthy as my dog and you should see what he drinks, and eats. Only ten percent of the extinct plants and animals became extinct since man appeared on the planet - the rest were gone before we arrived.

Daytr
25-10-2015, 07:49 PM
Tell what to the Huntly coal miners Craic ?
Despite what you choose to drink which comes from rain water, the quality of the water in our rivers & oceans is deteriorating and concentrations of nitrates and the like is continually increasing and so is the impact. Perhaps we should just continue to let that happen until the industries that rely on the very water sources they are degrading are impacted.
Re your comment on species extinction rates, you could google tat and their are numerous charts that display the rapid increase of extinction rates in the last 100 years due to population expansion. The chart looks like a plane taking off, actually very similar to a chart of NZ government debt since National got in power. ;-)
But by all means waste money on two pandas, whilst our own native wildlife suffers.

Major von Tempsky
26-10-2015, 08:41 AM
Conspiracy stuff eh...

There are 2 major disadvantages to smoking marijuana/cannabis which are not mentioned by cannabis lovers/MSM (main stream media).

1. Smoking marijuana is substantially more carcinogenic (cancer causing) than smoking cigarettes.

2. Marijuana smokers develop incipient schizophrenia...a tendency to see conspiracies everywhere is par for the course...(say no more, know what you mean - taps side of nose knowingly...).

iceman
26-10-2015, 01:04 PM
A good article in NBR discussing the bleating of Kiwis in Australia and the Left here in NZ, including some on this thread: http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/key-wastes-capital-expat-kiwis

Major von Tempsky
26-10-2015, 08:35 PM
Why stay and whinge in Australia when you can emigrate back to NZ?

Just a bit more time with Global Warming and the planes from Australia will be full of Climate Change refugees as the heat waves proliferate and intensify.

I could go and live in Australia without having to worry about welfare benefits, health benefits, superannuation benefits.

But I don't because I enjoy NZ much more and I really hate heat waves even with air conditioned houses. You are turned into a prisoner in your own house!

Daytr
26-10-2015, 09:08 PM
Iceman, the laws being used to deport ex convicts (anyone else see the irony in Australia doing this!) were implemented to counter terrorism not to detain people on offshore Islands thousands of miles away from their families, legal representation and without charge. This is a misuse of the law as it was intended. It's another example why governments shouldn't be given over reaching powers as they are bound to abuse it as in this case. Interesting though that the NBR publishing an article saying that Key is losing his political clout.

Those Northland voters have a lot to answer for. :cool:


A good article in NBR discussing the bleating of Kiwis in Australia and the Left here in NZ, including some on this thread: http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/key-wastes-capital-expat-kiwis

Major von Tempsky
27-10-2015, 08:29 AM
"Detained"? "Detained"?

Oh, ha! ha! ha! ho! ho! ho! That's rich, that's a good one!

How can you be detained when you have the immediate option of using 7 words "I want to go back to NZ!"

If you were detained in say North Korea or by ISIS or Boko Harum you would be detained properly! They know how to do detentions.

If they have "close" family there then you immediately have a litmus test of how "close" close is.!

i.e. do they follow said murderer, rapist, drug dealer, wife basher back to NZ? And if they don't who could blame them....

iceman
27-10-2015, 08:34 AM
Exactly MVT. All the Kiwis are there by choice because they want to mount a challenge to the deportation order from Australia. They are all free to return to NZ and could lodge their case from here if they wanted to.

Daytr
27-10-2015, 10:21 AM
Guys what are these centers called? Detainment centers. Quite simple really.
Why are they based in goodness knows where, out of way, out of sight out of mind.
Media get denied access, the Red Cross get denied access.
If someone has been a short term resident etc and been convicted, I understand sending them back to NZ.
However when someone has spent the majority of their life in Australia and their family & support is in Australia, then what does sending them back to NZ achieve?
If they need to detain them, why can't they do so in the State where they live so family & legal support has access to them.

These people have served their time. If they had applied for an Aussie passport they would be back in the community.
The fact that these people are choosing detainment over deportation suggests to me that they have a very good reason to be wanting to stay there. More than likely support to either find a job or that's where their family lives, kids go to school etc.
But lets up-root them send them back here, where perhaps they have none of that.
What do you think is going to happen in many cases if that happens?

Daytr
31-10-2015, 07:59 PM
Hi Craic, I wanted to get back to you on this as because the statement below does not give an accurate picture of what is happening with species decline. A chart below gives you a much better idea of the rapid increase in extinction rates.

Here are also a couple of articles that I hope you & others read that I think you will find alarming.
One thing I think goes against the Green movement in regards climate change & things like species rapid decline, is that its quite depressing reading.
And I think many would rather deny what's going on than face the ugly reality.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/biodiversity/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/05/140529-conservation-science-animals-species-endangered-extinction/

The clearance of rain forest in Indonesia at levels like never before.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/30/indonesia-fires-disaster-21st-century-world-media

\http://www.whole-systems.org/Resources/Image10.gif (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCO-v_4uV7MgCFRjnYwod6rkAWQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whole-systems.org%2Fextinctions.html&psig=AFQjCNG9kZ9NEdLujqVWFLHG_zarm1cCeA&ust=1446362153025826)



[QUOTE Only ten percent of the extinct plants and animals became extinct since man appeared on the planet - the rest were gone before we arrived.[/QUOTE]