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Daytr
03-11-2015, 06:34 AM
Turnbull has got rid of knighthoods. ! Good move, something Key could learn from. I would have thought changing this back makes far ,ore sense than a flag change. Referendum looming. I expect the turnout to be a complete flop and it will be $26M squandered by one man's fantasy.

airedale
03-11-2015, 09:09 AM
Key will not follow Turnbull on this. Key has his eye set on a knighthood for himself. These so called honours are archaic and irrelevant.

fungus pudding
03-11-2015, 09:28 AM
Turnbull has got rid of knighthoods. ! Good move, something Key could learn from. I would have thought changing this back makes far ,ore sense than a flag change. Referendum looming. I expect the turnout to be a complete flop and it will be $26M squandered by one man's fantasy.

It cannot possibly be a flop as long as one person 'turns up'. I will, Key will, and no doubt a few others as is normal with postal voting.

Sgt Pepper
03-11-2015, 10:04 AM
It cannot possibly be a flop as long as one person 'turns up'. I will, Key will, and no doubt a few others as is normal with postal voting.

I am not particularly concerned as to the question on the referendum paper. I do believe, however, that referenda should always, unless there is a compelling reason to the contrary, be held in conjunction with a general election .Thus unnecessary costs, which long suffering taxpayers have to endure, are avoided. The knighthood debate is interesting. Australia wishes to keep their flag(with the Union Jack in the corner) but abolish knighthoods. We,(meaning John Key) want to change our flag and retain Knighthoods. Its intriguing to see how Keys stance has evolved from being " a little bit republican" in 2003 to staying with the Queen at Balmoral and retaining Knighthoods.If he perceived it to be in his self interest and detected a significant shift in public opinion he would once again become more republican than Robespierre in the French Revolution. But as many people have long realised this vain, superficial man is not a conviction politician by any stretch of the imagination.

Daytr
03-11-2015, 09:30 PM
Am I missing some form of sarcasm here FP?
A low response rate will indeed be a flop & a waste of tax payer money.
Well at least if the answer in the 2nd referendum is no to change, which I'm pretty confident it will be we will save some money. Pity we couldn't just not squander tax payer money from the start on one man's ego trip.

Agree SP. it a strange stance here as Key re-introduced Knighthoods etc correct? And then to want to get rid of the current flag & reference to the union jack. I'm no monarchist, however when in fact it is actually a good time to change the flag in another generation's time I would like to think we wouldn't want to hide from our past links and some sort of link between Maori & European symbolism would be a good balance I would have thought.

I also agree if we are to have referendums then yes of course when there is no urgency, do it at the same time as the election.
What a complete waste of money its going to be. I mean we could get a 3rd Panda for that! ;-)

Shame we can't fund our mental health services properly though & the police are being used inappropriately as the response unit in many cases.
Can't fund DOC fully either. More pandas, four year witch hunts against Dotcom & a referendum are obviously far more important that funding government services that this government was voted in for to run!


It cannot possibly be a flop as long as one person 'turns up'. I will, Key will, and no doubt a few others as is normal with postal voting.

Sgt Pepper
04-11-2015, 09:56 PM
John Key in the Herald concerning Knighthoods

Prime Minister John Key says there is "not a dog's show" of New Zealand scrapping knights and dames from New Zealand's honours system

Why? Because he wants one

Daytr
05-11-2015, 05:58 AM
Its all about him Sgt Pepper. The guy is an egomaniac. I've been reading recaps of the four year Dotcom trial, where Key used the GCSB as his private police to raid & spy on Dotcom illegally. He then changed the law post to make what he did legal! And that's not the only time he has done that. Dotcom is now charged with fraud to try & extradite him to the US, a charge that wont even be laid against him by US authorities. Hey but anything that works, no matter how dodgy. Translation of German Skype conversations used by the prosecution have also been doctored to make them appear far worse than they were. Next time you Skype, just remember under Key's PMship anyone might be listening in.

craic
05-11-2015, 07:58 AM
The Herald lists the greatest threats against NZ today. They missed one - paranoia.

fungus pudding
05-11-2015, 08:34 AM
Its all about him Sgt Pepper. The guy is an egomaniac. I've been reading recaps of the four year Dotcom trial, where Key used the GCSB as his private police to raid & spy on Dotcom illegally. He then changed the law post to make what he did legal! And that's not the only time he has done that. Dotcom is now charged with fraud to try & extradite him to the US, a charge that wont even be laid against him by US authorities. Hey but anything that works, no matter how dodgy. Translation of German Skype conversations used by the prosecution have also been doctored to make them appear far worse than they were. Next time you Skype, just remember under Key's PMship anyone might be listening in.

I don't know about anyone listening in, but I have it on good authority that the P.M. himself personally listens in to all Skype conversations and personally reads all emails, and also reads all posts on this site. Be very careful - you've been warned.

westerly
05-11-2015, 08:47 AM
I don't know about anyone listening in, but I have it on good authority that the P.M. himself personally listens in to all Skype conversations and personally reads all emails, and also reads all posts on this site. Be very careful - you've been warned.

Don,t be silly. He is to busy arranging photo opportunities. It must have been a tough decision - Wellington and the royal visit or Auckland and the All Black parade.:)

westerly

iceman
05-11-2015, 08:58 AM
Don,t be silly. He is to busy arranging photo opportunities. It must have been a tough decision - Wellington and the royal visit or Auckland and the All Black parade.:)

westerly

But being our clever and popular PM he attended both :-)

fungus pudding
05-11-2015, 09:13 AM
But being our clever and popular PM he attended both :-)

...while all the time reading everyone elses Emails and listening to several thousand Skype conversations.

westerly
05-11-2015, 11:00 AM
But being our clever and popular PM he attended both :-)

And will he turn up in Ch Ch ?

westerly

iceman
05-11-2015, 11:40 AM
And will he turn up in Ch Ch ?

westerly

Not sure. Maybe Skype him and ask him !

artemis
05-11-2015, 11:46 AM
Not sure. Maybe Skype him and ask him !

Skype anyone to ask, really. He's sure to see it.

fungus pudding
05-11-2015, 12:24 PM
And will he turn up in Ch Ch ?

westerly

Of course he will. He is all over the show, just like Santa claus, spying on everyone, but seldom seen.
(And keep your eyes peeled for anyone disguised as Clark Kent)

craic
05-11-2015, 02:44 PM
Has anyone seen "Marty Feldman ' recently?

fungus pudding
05-11-2015, 05:45 PM
Has anyone seen "Marty Feldman ' recently?

Currently dead according to Wikapedia.

winner69
05-11-2015, 05:55 PM
John maybe a bit peeved Charlie going to the parade tomorrow ...but then again it could be multi photo opportunity

Sgt Pepper
05-11-2015, 06:35 PM
John maybe a bit peeved Charlie going to the parade tomorrow ...but then again it could be multi photo opportunity

John Key, publicity seeking?? photo opportunities?? Surely not. Next thing you will be saying that John wants a knighthood for himself at some stage.

winner69
05-11-2015, 07:06 PM
John Key, publicity seeking?? photo opportunities?? Surely not. Next thing you will be saying that John wants a knighthood for himself at some stage.

In The Listener

Daytr
06-11-2015, 06:09 AM
So are you saying the GCSB didn't illegally monitor Dotcom? No paranoia, fact.
I'm not the one who needs a warning about the PM Fungus Pudding, its girls with ponytails that need that.
But don't make an enemy of Key or he will use his private secret police to spy & raid.
Just ask Dotcom or Nicky Hager.

craic
06-11-2015, 07:18 AM
Then how did he get the leadership of the Labour Party - or is this just a ring-in?
Currently dead according to Wikapedia.

winner69
06-11-2015, 07:52 AM
As seen in Canada and other countries change in government does happen when people want change

But Little seems to be able to break this 'metabolic cycle' ifJane Clifton is right in her recent piece in the Listener


Our electoral system has a sustained and remarkably reliable metabolic cycle: parties win two, or more often three, elections before voters tire of them and change the Government. Past polling data, when measured against current trends, has a pitiless ability to provide early diagnoses of changes in that metabolism. And its suggesting that Labour looks set to muck up the whole cycle by being historically indigestible.

Pity really - we need a change but there really is no credible alternative putting their hand up and saying we are the ones.

Maybe Labour lst their chance by not being brave and going with somebody like

winner69
06-11-2015, 07:53 AM
As seen in Canada and other countries change in government does happen when people want change

But Little seems to be able to break this 'metabolic cycle' ifJane Clifton is right in her recent piece in the Listener


Our electoral system has a sustained and remarkably reliable metabolic cycle: parties win two, or more often three, elections before voters tire of them and change the Government. Past polling data, when measured against current trends, has a pitiless ability to provide early diagnoses of changes in that metabolism. And its suggesting that Labour looks set to muck up the whole cycle by being historically indigestible.

Pity really - we need a change but there really is no credible alternative putting their hand up and saying we are the ones.

Maybe Labour lst their chance by not being brave and going with somebody like Adhern

westerly
06-11-2015, 08:37 AM
Then how did he get the leadership of the Labour Party - or is this just a ring-in?

Possibly the same way Maxwell Smart became leader of National

westerly

fungus pudding
06-11-2015, 09:09 AM
Then how did he get the leadership of the Labour Party - or is this just a ring-in?


Being dead has become a prerequisite to lead The Labour party.

iceman
06-11-2015, 10:09 AM
So are you saying the GCSB didn't illegally monitor Dotcom? No paranoia, fact.
I'm not the one who needs a warning about the PM Fungus Pudding, its girls with ponytails that need that.
But don't make an enemy of Key or he will use his private secret police to spy & raid.
Just ask Dotcom or Nicky Hager.

You could also ask people like Rodney Hide who had outrageous and untrue claims made about him in Hager's book what they think ! Nicky Hager is not a journalist, he is a thief

Sgt Pepper
06-11-2015, 10:11 AM
Being dead has become a prerequisite to lead The Labour party.

Premature political obituaries are littered with historical examples where the opposite has occurred. As for National Judith Collins, Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse will not( and can not) tolerate the John Key show going on too long, its simply does not align with their political ambitions.
He will go, or be pushed in late 2016 early 2017. As much as this distresses his admirers it will happen. Unrealised political ambition is a toxic thing within parties, National is currently riddled with it. Watch this space.
(PS good to see you posting again)

iceman
06-11-2015, 10:44 AM
You 're definitely right Sgt Pepper about lots of political ambition in the National Party. A shame that doesn't exist in the Labour Party.

craic
06-11-2015, 12:26 PM
Do you have a few dollars to go with that? Or is the courage of your convictions a moveable value?
Premature political obituaries are littered with historical examples where the opposite has occurred. As for National Judith Collins, Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse will not( and can not) tolerate the John Key show going on too long, its simply does not align with their political ambitions.
He will go, or be pushed in late 2016 early 2017. As much as this distresses his admirers it will happen. Unrealised political ambition is a toxic thing within parties, National is currently riddled with it. Watch this space.
(PS good to see you posting again)

Snow Leopard
06-11-2015, 02:23 PM
Trans Pacific Partnership text (http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership.php) available if you want a good read.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

macduffy
06-11-2015, 03:38 PM
Trans Pacific Partnership text (http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/01-Treaties-for-which-NZ-is-Depositary/0-Trans-Pacific-Partnership.php) available if you want a good read.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Life's too short for that, tiger!

I'll wait for Jane Kelsey's verdict!

;)

fungus pudding
06-11-2015, 04:02 PM
Life's too short for that, tiger!

I'll wait for Jane Kelsey's verdict!

;)

She doesn't need to read it. Obviously an extremely gifted individual. Knew it backwards before it was even drafted.

Daytr
06-11-2015, 08:00 PM
So you are accusing Hager of stealing files or documents? Talk about untrue claims. You may need to look closer to home with accusations like that'


You could also ask people like Rodney Hide who had outrageous and untrue claims made about him in Hager's book what they think ! Nicky Hager is not a journalist, he is a thief

artemis
07-11-2015, 10:35 AM
So you are accusing Hager of stealing files or documents? Talk about untrue claims. You may need to look closer to home with accusations like that'

Mr Hager may or may not be a thief. Who knows? But I concur - that does not appear to be an accusation on the table at the moment.

This whole thing has a way to run still. Looks like various parties are awaiting the outcome of certain court processes, but have well advanced plans to make a move at that point. Some of those parties, including the police, are playing cards very close to their chest at present.

fungus pudding
07-11-2015, 10:41 AM
Premature political obituaries are littered with historical examples where the opposite has occurred. As for National Judith Collins, Paula Bennett and Michael Woodhouse will not( and can not) tolerate the John Key show going on too long, its simply does not align with their political ambitions.
He will go, or be pushed in late 2016 early 2017.

After watching The Nation this morning I think Little will be the one who goes before the next election. Watching him spluttering through the interview, then watching Robertson in the following segment, it's clear that Robertson can and will upstage him at some point. I'm sure he'll have another go at leadership in the next 18 months or so, and most of the party will back him on the grounds that they have nothing to lose.

Daytr
07-11-2015, 11:02 AM
Tend to agree Fungus, Little hasn't made a fist of the leadership & Labour will need to do something in time for a new leader to challenge Key, if he stands for re-election. We may have two different leaders of both major political parties for 2017 & if so I can only see that as a positive for Labour. I may not like Key but he is National's best bet at re-election for a 4th term, at least at this point. Its a long time in the political cycle between now & then though & if Key has any more flag change, panda or ponytail type circuses to come, it could also spell his political downfall as well.

macduffy
07-11-2015, 02:18 PM
Yes, plenty of time left for those few Labour MP's who havn't had a crack at leading, to have a turn!

;)

iceman
07-11-2015, 02:43 PM
So you are accusing Hager of stealing files or documents? Talk about untrue claims. You may need to look closer to home with accusations like that'

Knowingly receiving stolen goods and using them for financial gain qualifies by my standards

Daytr
07-11-2015, 03:09 PM
Well then in your book the likes of Watergate would never have happened. Whistle blowers rely on this sort source because the very people in question are not being transparent in regards their dubious actions.


Knowingly receiving stolen goods and using them for financial gain qualifies by my standards

fungus pudding
08-11-2015, 08:36 AM
Again on Q+A this morning Robertson shows an ability to answer questions with confidence while Little carries on spluttering. It's only a matter of time for Little. The clock is ticking, slowly, but ticking never-the-less.

Sgt Pepper
08-11-2015, 08:50 AM
Again on Q+A this morning Robertson shows an ability to answer questions with confidence while Little carries on spluttering. It's only a matter of time for Little. The clock is ticking, slowly, but ticking never-the-less.

FP
There is another clock that's ticking louder and louder It is Judith Collins " political biological clock", watch out John, she is after your job. Any stuff ups she will pounce, she has nothing to lose and much to gain. Mind you it could be karma, payback for the way JK treated Bill English when he was leader

iceman
08-11-2015, 09:43 AM
FP
There is another clock that's ticking louder and louder It is Judith Collins " political biological clock", watch out John, she is after your job. Any stuff ups she will pounce, she has nothing to lose and much to gain. Mind you it could be karma, payback for the way JK treated Bill English when he was leader

How did JK treat BE when he was Leader ? Bill was a Leader only for a few months after JK first entered parliament, before being replaced by Don Brash !! !

Sgt Pepper
08-11-2015, 02:58 PM
How did JK treat BE when he was Leader ? Bill was a Leader only for a few months after JK first entered parliament, before being replaced by Don Brash !! !

John Key reassured Bill English to his face that he would vote for him to continue as Leader of the National Party. Yet on the day of the election in Caucus voted for Don Brash. A sign of things to come.

Baa_Baa
08-11-2015, 06:30 PM
John Key reassured Bill English to his face that he would vote for him to continue as Leader of the National Party. Yet on the day of the election in Caucus voted for Don Brash. A sign of things to come.

Very insightful observation Sgt. For the sake of the National Party though (which is what sets the NP apart imo), they will ride JKs' back through the next election and worry about leadership changes after that. JK is too partisan to forsake the NP's best interests by resigning the leadership prior to the next election, and no fool in the NP would roll the PM prior to getting the 4th term. Power is everything - gain and retain, end of story. We as a populous seem to have caught the American leadership popularity contest bug, hence JK the best bet for the Party to go 4 terms. As an aside, some speculate that Crusher Colins may coup d'tat JK but frankly, she's got no popularity appeal imo, and she'd be barking mad to try and roll JK only to -possibly if it works out for her -end up with leadership of the opposition! The worst job in politics, the leader of the losers! Better for her to keep her powder dry and try an 'et tu Brutus' after JK leads the NP to the 4th term, assuming she even wants to. If she moved earlier it would be obviously a vendetta, to f'JK and with it the NP's 4th term, and with that her career. That'd be one heck of an agenda! Interesting times ahead as always.

Sgt Pepper
08-11-2015, 07:34 PM
Very insightful observation Sgt. For the sake of the National Party though (which is what sets the NP apart imo), they will ride JKs' back through the next election and worry about leadership changes after that. JK is too partisan to forsake the NP's best interests by resigning the leadership prior to the next election, and no fool in the NP would roll the PM prior to getting the 4th term. Power is everything - gain and retain, end of story. We as a populous seem to have caught the American leadership popularity contest bug, hence JK the best bet for the Party to go 4 terms. As an aside, some speculate that Crusher Colins may coup d'tat JK but frankly, she's got no popularity appeal imo, and she'd be barking mad to try and roll JK only to -possibly if it works out for her -end up with leadership of the opposition! The worst job in politics, the leader of the losers! Better for her to keep her powder dry and try an 'et tu Brutus' after JK leads the NP to the 4th term, assuming she even wants to. If she moved earlier it would be obviously a vendetta, to f'JK and with it the NP's 4th term, and with that her career. That'd be one heck of an agenda! Interesting times ahead as always.

Thanks Baa Baa, good analysis and thought provoking
One aspect to this is how intense her unrealised ambition is how it will play out. Judith Collins is 58 and an argument could be made that time is running out for her to realise her ultimate political ambition. There are different scenarios not all of which align with her ambition.

Support John Key, National win 2017 election.

John Key has stated his admiration for Sir Keith Holyoake and at least equal his tenure. To achieve this however he would have to remain as PM until early 2020. Judith Collins would then be 63. She will be mindful that there are other, much younger contenders for National Party leader who, I would argue, are just as ambitious, especially Michael Woodhouse and Paula Bennett.

Support John Key National lose 2017 election
In this scenario, John Key will almost certainly resign or be pushed should the electorate reject National. On the assumption that they will be out of office until 2023 Judith Collins will be 66 before she would be PM. The younger contenders wont let this happen. Her political career is over.

Leadership challenge prior to 2017.
If the polls soften to the extent that the governments tenure is seriously at risk and John Key makes some signifiant mistakes then she may decide she has nothing lose, regardless how cautious the party at large is

iceman
09-11-2015, 06:14 AM
I think your first scenario is the most likely Sgt Pepper. There is "Little" chance of Labour winning the 2017 election, having just finished their 2015 conference totally deprived of any new policies or ideas except to lower sugar levels in food !!!
But I do not believe Michael Woodhouse is a future leadership contender. While I competent Minister, he will never have mass appeal. My bet would be on Simon Bridges and/or Paula Bennett, but possibly after Key wins the 2020 election.
Judith Collins has no chance and will never run for it.

Sgt Pepper
09-11-2015, 07:49 AM
I think your first scenario is the most likely Sgt Pepper. There is "Little" chance of Labour winning the 2017 election, having just finished their 2015 conference totally deprived of any new policies or ideas except to lower sugar levels in food !!!
But I do not believe Michael Woodhouse is a future leadership contender. While I competent Minister, he will never have mass appeal. My bet would be on Simon Bridges and/or Paula Bennett, but possibly after Key wins the 2020 election.
Judith Collins has no chance and will never run for it.

thanks for your comment Iceman
I have met Michael Woodhouse on a few occasions and was most impressed. He is intelligent, articulate and seems t have a large amount of good common sense. Personally I would have thought John Key should have chosen him to be Minister of Health over Johnathan Coleman due to his background. Mind you he is from Dunedin and I knew his mother who used to work at the hospital I work at so I suppose I am somewhat prejudiced !

fungus pudding
09-11-2015, 08:21 AM
I think your first scenario is the most likely Sgt Pepper. There is "Little" chance of Labour winning the 2017 election, having just finished their 2015 conference totally deprived of any new policies or ideas except to lower sugar levels in food !!!
But I do not believe Michael Woodhouse is a future leadership contender. While I competent Minister, he will never have mass appeal. My bet would be on Simon Bridges and/or Paula Bennett, but possibly after Key wins the 2020 election.
Judith Collins has no chance and will never run for it.

Ditto to above, although I think Paula Bennett would leave Sim0on Bridges in the dust. I think she'll be next National leader.

Sgt Pepper
09-11-2015, 08:50 AM
Ditto to above, although I think Paula Bennett would leave Sim0on Bridges in the dust. I think she'll be next National leader.

I don't believe Judith Collins should be written off. She has appeal to those in the National Party who are somewhat disappointed by the lack of action on what they perceive as important issues and what John Key refuses to engage with for fear, real or imagined, of losing support. The agenda:

ACC privatisation'
Significant Industrial Law Reform
Rolling back Working For Families'
Flat Tax Rate/tax reform
Increasing age of entitlement to NZ Superannuation
Reintroduction of interest on Student Loans
Ending Kiwisaver employer subsidy.
Increased Defence spending
Sell Kiwibank
Sell remaining shares in MRP, Genesis, etc

None of the above, much to their dismay, will ever occur during John Keys tenure. They are in effect becalmed in the balmy seas "Labour Lite" with the stark choice of continuing to vote National, switching to ACT, or not voting at all and keeping their wallets shut when party donations are requested In their advancing years they know they will never see the great days of Roger Douglas again

fungus pudding
09-11-2015, 09:20 AM
I don't believe Judith Collins should be written off. She has appeal to those in the National Party who are somewhat disappointed by the lack of action on what they perceive as important issues and what John Key refuses to engage with for fear, real or imagined, of losing support. The agenda:

ACC privatisation'
Significant Industrial Law Reform
Rolling back Working For Families'
Flat Tax Rate/tax reform
Increasing age of entitlement to NZ Superannuation
Reintroduction of interest on Student Loans
Ending Kiwisaver employer subsidy.
Increased Defence spending
Sell Kiwibank
Sell remaining shares in MRP, Genesis, etc

None of the above, much to their dismay, will ever occur during John Keys tenure. They are in effect becalmed in the balmy seas "Labour Lite" with the stark choice of continuing to vote National, switching to ACT, or not voting at all and keeping their wallets shut when party donations are requested In their advancing years they know they will never see the great days of Roger Douglas again

I didn't realise you were a member of the National party. Congratulations.

iceman
09-11-2015, 09:30 AM
I don't believe Judith Collins should be written off. She has appeal to those in the National Party who are somewhat disappointed by the lack of action on what they perceive as important issues and what John Key refuses to engage with for fear, real or imagined, of losing support. The agenda:

ACC privatisation'
Significant Industrial Law Reform
Rolling back Working For Families'
Flat Tax Rate/tax reform
Increasing age of entitlement to NZ Superannuation
Reintroduction of interest on Student Loans
Ending Kiwisaver employer subsidy.
Increased Defence spending
Sell Kiwibank
Sell remaining shares in MRP, Genesis, etc

None of the above, much to their dismay, will ever occur during John Keys tenure. They are in effect becalmed in the balmy seas "Labour Lite" with the stark choice of continuing to vote National, switching to ACT, or not voting at all and keeping their wallets shut when party donations are requested In their advancing years they know they will never see the great days of Roger Douglas again

I would support about half of this "agenda" but I would not support Judith Collins for Leader. It simply will not happen Sgt Pepper !

Sgt Pepper
09-11-2015, 10:07 AM
I didn't realise you were a member of the National party. Congratulations.

Not much chance of that FP

Sgt Pepper
09-11-2015, 10:17 AM
I would support about half of this "agenda" but I would not support Judith Collins for Leader. It simply will not happen Sgt Pepper !

We shall see. Iceman. National strength is also its greatest weakness. National is like an inverted pyramid, over reliant on John Key. Just thinking the Auditor Generals report must be out soon, Murray McCully must be sweating and keeping his fingers crossed

fungus pudding
09-11-2015, 10:17 AM
Not much chance of that FP

Then where do you get all this staggering information re 'the agenda', which looks to me no more than a list of topics that have arisen from time to time in various parties?

Sgt Pepper
09-11-2015, 10:38 AM
Then where do you get all this staggering information re 'the agenda', which looks to me no more than a list of topics that have arisen from time to time in various parties?
FP
Surely you remember the notorious 2008 pre election gathering of National Party, which was infiltrated. Over wine and cheese, (probably too much wine) in private, senior National Party people disclosed their true aspirations Bill English stated he desired to sell of Kiwibank, but acknowledged probably they would have to "swallow a few dead rats" to stay in power. Kate Wilkinson was promising all manner of things to the Employers groups present This was in stark contrast to what was being disclosed in public. The point I was making was that if I was one of the enthusiastic people present hearing and believing that I would want my money back.

fungus pudding
09-11-2015, 11:13 AM
FP
Surely you remember the notorious 2008 pre election gathering of National Party, which was infiltrated. Over wine and cheese, (probably too much wine) in private, senior National Party people disclosed their true aspirations Bill English stated he desired to sell of Kiwibank, but acknowledged probably they would have to "swallow a few dead rats" to stay in power. Kate Wilkinson was promising all manner of things to the Employers groups present This was in stark contrast to what was being disclosed in public. The point I was making was that if I was one of the enthusiastic people present hearing and believing that I would want my money back.
All sorts of party members bend the ear of the big wigs at conferences and so on. And that's not restricted to National; and it hardly constitutes an agenda.

iceman
10-11-2015, 10:42 AM
I'm surprised at the silence on here with all the going ons on Christmas Island. Hope daytr didn't go over there to start the riots :confused:

Sgt Pepper
10-11-2015, 11:02 AM
I'm surprised at the silence on here with all the going ons on Christmas Island. Hope daytr didn't go over there to start the riots :confused:

Iceman
Best to leave it to John Key. Poor Malcolm Turnbull, he must live in fear and trembling of John Key.(not) J K is like a Chihuahua barking at a Mastiff. Although apparently John is constantly on the phone to Australia, to Crosby Textor that is.

Daytr
11-11-2015, 06:26 AM
Key's best form of defense has always been attack no matter how crass. NZ had the chance to raise Australia's abuse of human rights at he UN like many other countries did, yet we stayed silent. These detention centers go against UN conventions with no access given to the likes of the Red Cross. Despite Key's ridiculous assertions at Labour supporting murderers etc, there isn't one (NZ) murderer on Christmas Island. People there that have committed serious crimes number less than 10. Key's lack of a backbone on this issue is coming back to bite him. Key's argument is that he is protecting NZers by allowing people who are essentially Australian & convicted criminals be returned to NZ.

Sgt Pepper
11-11-2015, 09:07 AM
Key's best form of defense has always been attack no matter how crass. NZ had the chance to raise Australia's abuse of human rights at he UN like many other countries did, yet we stayed silent. These detention centers go against UN conventions with no access given to the likes of the Red Cross. Despite Key's ridiculous assertions at Labour supporting murderers etc, there isn't one (NZ) murderer on Christmas Island. People there that have committed serious crimes number less than 10. Key's lack of a backbone on this issue is coming back to bite him. Key's argument is that he is protecting NZers by allowing people who are essentially Australian & convicted criminals be returned to NZ.

Daytr

Did you see John Keys reaction in Parliament yesterday when one of the Green MPs asked him about the New Zealander o Christmas Island who had no convictions; had fought in the NZ Army in Afghanistan, awarded 3 medals.,and assisted in recovery operations after the Christchurch Earthquake John Key looked pale and really didn't know how to respond, just saying " I don't know about that case" and obviously couldn't wait to sit down again. I assume he will be on the phone to Crosby Textor today to ask them what to say and think. Bill English must be despondent being deputy to this shallow, vain man .I am sure all Returned Servicemen/Women will be appalled by Keys lack of interest. He thinks Flags and Pandas are far more important.

iceman
11-11-2015, 10:15 AM
Kiwis being deported from Australia:
Assault 121
Theft/Robbery 83
Other non violent 80 approximately
Other violent offences 120 approx
Rape 16
Murder/manslaughter 22
Drugs 64
Child sex offences 34

Snapper
11-11-2015, 11:03 AM
Key's best form of defense has always been attack no matter how crass. NZ had the chance to raise Australia's abuse of human rights at he UN like many other countries did, yet we stayed silent. These detention centers go against UN conventions with no access given to the likes of the Red Cross. Despite Key's ridiculous assertions at Labour supporting murderers etc, there isn't one (NZ) murderer on Christmas Island. People there that have committed serious crimes number less than 10. Key's lack of a backbone on this issue is coming back to bite him. Key's argument is that he is protecting NZers by allowing people who are essentially Australian & convicted criminals be returned to NZ.

So given all of the terrible human rights abuses going on in the world, NZ is expected to stand up in the UN and denounce Australia over its treatment of non-resident criminals that it wants to deport? Forget Somalia, Sudan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia et al, let's get stuck into Australia? While I don't necessarily agree with the way they have gone about it, Australia has every right to deport these guys, it's just a shame that they are going to end up here.

I see Andrew Little is going to appear before their senate in a couple of weeks to argue with them about it. That is going to be hilarious!

iceman
11-11-2015, 11:32 AM
So given all of the terrible human rights abuses going on in the world, NZ is expected to stand up in the UN and denounce Australia over its treatment of non-resident criminals that it wants to deport? Forget Somalia, Sudan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia et al, let's get stuck into Australia? While I don't necessarily agree with the way they have gone about it, Australia has every right to deport these guys, it's just a shame that they are going to end up here.

I see Andrew Little is going to appear before their senate in a couple of weeks to argue with them about it. That is going to be hilarious!

and align ourselves with such outstanding World citizens as Rwanda, Turkey, North Korea and Iran, who all expressed concern about Australia. What a joke !

Sgt Pepper
11-11-2015, 11:54 AM
and align ourselves with such outstanding World citizens as Rwanda, Turkey, North Korea and Iran, who all expressed concern about Australia. What a joke !

And your response to the case of former decorated NZ Army Corporal Ro Kutene detained despite having committed no offence??

iceman
11-11-2015, 12:28 PM
And your response to the case of former decorated NZ Army Corporal Ro Kutene detained despite having committed no offence??

If what is being reported is true, that sounds shocking.

artemis
11-11-2015, 12:40 PM
And your response to the case of former decorated NZ Army Corporal Ro Kutene detained despite having committed no offence??

Not all those facing visa revocation have convictions. There is also a good character test.

Mr Kutene is a member of what his lawyer rather euphemistically calls a motorcycle club, and apparently there are a few other gang members in the same boat. Only a few though, so either Australia is still working on the others or there is some other reason a small number have been selected.

One assumes Mr Rutene has appealed against deportation, and his appeal may well succeed if he is otherwise of acceptable character.

Having no convictions does not mean a person is not 'known to police'.

craic
11-11-2015, 12:42 PM
Did he apply for Australian citizenship before or after he joined the bikie gang? At one time, to my knowledge, over 80% of males in Britain were ex servicemen.

Snapper
11-11-2015, 02:06 PM
Not all those facing visa revocation have convictions. There is also a good character test.

Mr Kutene is a member of what his lawyer rather euphemistically calls a motorcycle club, and apparently there are a few other gang members in the same boat. Only a few though, so either Australia is still working on the others or there is some other reason a small number have been selected.

One assumes Mr Rutene has appealed against deportation, and his appeal may well succeed if he is otherwise of acceptable character.

Having no convictions does not mean a person is not 'known to police'.

Exactly. If you go to another country, associate with (and wear their emblems) a 'motorcycle club' or as they're otherwise known, criminals and drug dealers it's not surprising that you will attract police attention. And if you're not a citizen, then who could blame the Aussies for giving you the boot.

craic
11-11-2015, 03:36 PM
As a matter of record, my wife and children can enter Australia without hindrance. I have lived and worked there in the distant past but as an Irishman, I must obtain a visa just to go there for a holiday. I was there, in Adelaide, just a couple of weeks ago and visit yearly. I don't break the law or disturb the peace and I've always been as welcome there as here.

Daytr
11-11-2015, 08:07 PM
There will be cases good and bad and exceptions, the point is the ones that are criminals have served their time. Its the wholesale approach to this detainment that's wrong and why wont they open them up to inspection? Why are they in the middle of no where? Denying detainees easy access to legal support and the like. And if John Key thinks that everyone of them is a serious criminal why is he opening the welcome door to them? Why hasn't he put up more of a fight if he is truly protecting the NZ public like he claims he is. In some cases it probably makes sense they are deported, in others it clearly does not and the wholesale approach treating everyone the same no matter their circumstance is unjust.

artemis
12-11-2015, 04:45 AM
Daytr, if detainees come back to NZ they can continue their appeals from here. Australia has confirmed there will be no difference in process, and that in any case some 30% of appeals are allowed.

Daytr
12-11-2015, 06:15 AM
Except the fact that quite a few of them have lived in Australia for years if not decades and by deporting them they are removed from their family & support. The thing I find bizarre is that Key & National are amping up the fear factor saying they are all murderers & rapists etc, but somehow this is a good thing that they are coming back to NZ. Go figure.
This blanket approach of deportation & the detainment conditions not only of these people but refugees in Australia is appalling and this is what I really object to & Key's weak kneed approach to Australia on this matter.

iceman
12-11-2015, 06:40 AM
If they've lived in Australia for decades they should have gotten off their bums and applied for Citizenship. Then they wouldn't be in this situation.

I have not heard any Ministers say "it is a good thing they are coming back to NZ". These people are NZ Citizens and NZ has no choice whether to receive them or not. They have a right to come back here as all NZ Citizens do..

Australia is a sovereign state and can deal with criminals and illegal immigrants as they see fit. The PM of NZ neither can or should try to interfere in their internal politics

Daytr
12-11-2015, 09:38 PM
Well that's actually quite incorrect. Australia like NZ is a member of the UN and is supposed to be abiding by its conventions as it has signed up to do & yet Australia is choosing to ignore these very conventions. NZ stood up to the likes of South Africa I regards apartheid although was a laggard compared to much of the world. We did the same in the case of Fiji in relation to the coup. So Australia isn't under UN convention allowed to treat these people that are being detained 'how they see fit' as you put it.

Sgt Pepper
13-11-2015, 10:41 AM
I see in todays NZ Herald a analysis an IT Specialist has revealed that 1/3 of responses negative about a flag change were ignored by the Flag Panel in their published submissions Oh I forgot, they have no opinion about a change. Yeah right John

fungus pudding
13-11-2015, 10:58 AM
I see in todays NZ Herald a analysis an IT Specialist has revealed that 1/3 of responses negative about a flag change were ignored by the Flag Panel in their published submissions Oh I forgot, they have no opinion about a change. Yeah right John

Obviously you didn't listen to the panel talking about this on the 24 hour radio program.

Snapper
13-11-2015, 11:00 AM
This is really a non-story, they are a flag consideration committee who are interested in views on what the alternative flag could look like. They quite explicitly state on their website that if you are against changing the flag then vote that way in the second referendum. They aren't ignoring those negative views, they are just not relevant in the context of what they are trying to do, ie come up with a suitable alternative flag.

The problem with opposing everything that this government does, everything they say, everything they do is that it all just becomes noise after a while...

westerly
13-11-2015, 11:25 AM
If they've lived in Australia for decades they should have gotten off their bums and applied for Citizenship. Then they wouldn't be in this situation.

I have not heard any Ministers say "it is a good thing they are coming back to NZ". These people are NZ Citizens and NZ has no choice whether to receive them or not. They have a right to come back here as all NZ Citizens do..

Australia is a sovereign state and can deal with criminals and illegal immigrants as they see fit. The PM of NZ neither can or should try to interfere in their internal politics

Even the occasional Australian is not impressed.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-13/deportations-from-australia-to-new-zealand-climb/6847510
You can also have dual citizenship and still be deported.
The Australian right is not going to get soft with John.
westerly

Daytr
15-11-2015, 10:30 AM
Hi Snapper the real non- story is the flag referendum which will be an abject failure. The real story is that John Key's ego has cost the tax payer millions with this folly. I'm not even anti changing the flag, I just think the timing is off and if Key had got the discussion going and left it that I would have commended him for it, as its a worthy discussion. However there is no reason to rush into a change & the way he has hijacked the process is just further evidence of Key not knowing where to draw the line in regards boundaries, conflict of interest and good governance.

QUOTE=Snapper;597365]This is really a non-story, they are a flag consideration committee who are interested in views on what the alternative flag could look like. They quite explicitly state on their website that if you are against changing the flag then vote that way in the second referendum. They aren't ignoring those negative views, they are just not relevant in the context of what they are trying to do, ie come up with a suitable alternative flag.

The problem with opposing everything that this government does, everything they say, everything they do is that it all just becomes noise after a while...[/QUOTE]

craic
20-11-2015, 07:10 AM
That conversation between Obama and the Australian Prime Minister, reported in today's Herald, must be the ultimate kick-in-the-guts for the left and particularly for those who see Key as something close to Satan. Ey Daytr? Or will we have another futile attempt to make a Sows Ear out of a Silk Purse. I know politics is a tough game but fancy admitting that you cannot raise enough funds from your own supporters to play the game.

Daytr
20-11-2015, 10:43 PM
Very funny Craic. Which party are you referring ? I have never said I'm a labour party supporter & I really don't care what Obama or Turnbull said. Obama is a lefty right, you do know that? However he does have to be one of the most disappointing Presidents in modern history. So much hope, so little delivery. Remember his slogan 'yes we can' ? Yes we can what? And its not that he's been bad especially when compared to a Bush, but I think people just hoped for so much more. Although the Republicans have stifled virtually every move he has tried to make in a game of dirty, negative politics. Sounds quite familiar?

I see Key seems to have softened his stance to the NZ detainees & now has a similar stance to Labour. So is he now supporting the murderers & the rapists? What a dick.

craic
21-11-2015, 07:40 AM
Have you ever been wrong Daytr? You hate and malign Key at every turn, even though he is the most popular leader the country has had in a long time. You produce the same dribble on the climate change site when anyone dares to disagree with the stuff you scrape together. I hate to think what a mess you must be in the real world, away from the fantasy world of the internet.

Daytr
21-11-2015, 07:52 AM
Oh Craic, never shy of getting personal eh. Of course I'm not right about everything, but I also wont let blatantly obviously incorrect things stand. No I don't malign Key at every turn & have at times given him credit, so again your assertion is incorrect. I don't hate the man either, however I don't like the path he is taking NZ down. In a world of sound bites & little substance, I can understand Key's popularity. Unfortunately a lot of people care more about there ever increasing individual wealth more than how others or the environment are impacted. Thanks for your concern, but life is pretty great!

Sgt Pepper
21-11-2015, 10:39 AM
Flag Referendum

eagerly awaiting their arrival in our letterbox. Now what will I do

1. assign said referendum papers to rubbish bin
2. vote for the ugliest flag (tempting)
3. write " keep our existing flag" (Winstons advice)

Thank you John for wasting our money(again)

fungus pudding
21-11-2015, 10:57 AM
Flag Referendum

eagerly awaiting their arrival in our letterbox. Now what will I do

1. assign said referendum papers to rubbish bin
2. vote for the ugliest flag (tempting)
3. write " keep our existing flag" (Winstons advice)

Thank you John for wasting our money(again)

I'm not sure why you consider this a waste of money. If the flag changes the resulting international publicity will be massive - far beyond what money thrown at the America's cup could achieve for example.

Daytr
21-11-2015, 12:21 PM
It will be a waste of money Fungus because the referendum imo will fail miserably and the current flag will remain.
At least we wont waste as much money as we might have by a rushed change with little debate & thought put into an alternative that would hopefully stand the test of time. As I've said, its a good discussion to have & I hope eventually we will make a change, but not at the whim of one man's ego.

Sgt Pepper I'll be sending it back with a note, "retain the current flag & stop wasting tax payer money".

Sgt Pepper
21-11-2015, 12:23 PM
I'm not sure why you consider this a waste of money. If the flag changes the resulting international publicity will be massive - far beyond what money thrown at the America's cup could achieve for example.

FP
As I have said previously I, and many others cant understand why any referendum could not have been held at the next general election in 2017. Millions of taxpayers money would have been saved and John Key would have still had his pet project.

Sgt Pepper
21-11-2015, 12:28 PM
It will be a waste of money Fungus because the referendum imo will fail miserably and the current flag will remain.
At least we wont waste as much money as we might have by a rushed change with little debate & thought put into an alternative that would hopefully stand the test of time. As I've said, its a good discussion to have & I hope eventually we will make a change, but not at the whim of one man's ego.

Sgt Pepper I'll be sending it back with a note, "retain the current flag & stop wasting tax payer money".

Daytr

we all know that if Helen Clark had initiated a flag referendum National would have been criticised it. Usual hypocrisy

Daytr
21-11-2015, 01:16 PM
Same goes if Labour had loaded NZ up with a mountain of debt SP. Oh no that's right, Labour actually reduced the government debt burden, while National has more than tripled it!

westerly
21-11-2015, 06:08 PM
That conversation between Obama and the Australian Prime Minister, reported in today's Herald, must be the ultimate kick-in-the-guts for the left and particularly for those who see Key as something close to Satan. Ey Daytr? Or will we have another futile attempt to make a Sows Ear out of a Silk Purse. I know politics is a tough game but fancy admitting that you cannot raise enough funds from your own supporters to play the game.

Obama is a Democrat.a centre left party. so maybe John is thinking of changing sides. About as likely as your betting system ever showing a profit.
Obama and the Aussie PM probably think a lot of John because he always does as he is told. :)

westerly

craic
22-11-2015, 12:39 PM
It's not only the other leaders who praise Key. Most polls taken here put him head-and-shoulders ahead of the opposition, here, where it counts. maybe you are right and my betting system will not make a profit but it will keep me entertained and will use up a fraction of what I make elsewhere. Just for the record, my only bet so far today was $10 to win on Opie Bossons horse in the second race at 1.05 this afternoon and I a quite happy with the $25 I got back. Horseracing is the sport of kings - left wing politics is the refuge of fools. At the end of the day made $19 from 17 bets

RGR367
23-11-2015, 10:09 AM
As Patrick Gower would fondly say, "it's still 18 months to go before election" but what else can Labour do aside from dumping their leader at this point? http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/national-still-ahead-in-polls-despite-rapist-remarks-2015112217#disqus_thread

Sgt Pepper
23-11-2015, 01:21 PM
As Patrick Gower would fondly say, "it's still 18 months to go before election" but what else can Labour do aside from dumping their leader at this point? http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/national-still-ahead-in-polls-despite-rapist-remarks-2015112217#disqus_thread

As Jenny Shipley observed many years ago every electorally successful government eventually has to confront the TFAC factor( Time for a change) TFAC, she observed is frustrating in that it is surprisingly difficult to fend off. Naturally the Prime Ministers admirers believe he is immune to this and the political happy time will continue. Their optimism to date has been justified with three electoral wins, quite an achievement under MMP. Notwithstanding this popular governments have come unstuck before, and fairly rapidly from unexpected events. A dramatic scandal, a sudden economic chill. internal disputes, and unrealised political ambition frustrated at the incumbent can all end a governments tenure. By way of example Margaret Thatcher was still very popular in SE England in 1990 after being in power since 1979. What undid her was an internal dispute within the Conservative Party and the unrealised ambition of Michael Hesseltine and other realising that the window of opportunity to advance their careers was rapidly running out. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that this and TFAC could pose a danger to National. What are others opinions?

fungus pudding
23-11-2015, 02:21 PM
As Jenny Shipley observed many years ago every electorally successful government eventually has to confront the TFAC factor( Time for a change) TFAC, she observed is frustrating in that it is surprisingly difficult to fend off. Naturally the Prime Ministers admirers believe he is immune to this and the political happy time will continue. Their optimism to date has been justified with three electoral wins, quite an achievement under MMP. Notwithstanding this popular governments have come unstuck before, and fairly rapidly from unexpected events. A dramatic scandal, a sudden economic chill. internal disputes, and unrealised political ambition frustrated at the incumbent can all end a governments tenure. By way of example Margaret Thatcher was still very popular in SE England in 1990 after being in power since 1979. What undid her was an internal dispute within the Conservative Party and the unrealised ambition of Michael Hesseltine and other realising that the window of opportunity to advance their careers was rapidly running out. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that this and TFAC could pose a danger to National. What are others opinions?

Here's my two cents worth. National are in a unique position as there is no effective opposition. Labour is the only party with enough clout to get anywhere near forming a governing coalition but tthey keep missing the opportunity. Since Helen's day they have had Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe and now Little. None of them can gain traction and each leadership change seems to bring a new raft of policies. To make any impression in the next election they should dump Little tomorrow, he's just not making the grade; elect a new leader (there must be someone with public appeal) and get stuck into promoting sensible policies and drop the negative whining nonsense. Then they might get a lift in the polls. Mind you they'd have to be careful to target National voters. Nothing to be gained by going for those who have defected to Greens. I reckon our next govt. will be National, Act and Winston first; (include Peter Dunne and The Maori party if they can hang on in there.)

Daytr
23-11-2015, 02:21 PM
Alternatively Labour could just buy up some TV time & play this comedy gold over & over. That would certainly make Patrick Gower's chippers sparkle!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/68080709/PM-John-Key-lampooned-on-US-comedy-show


As Patrick Gower would fondly say, "it's still 18 months to go before election" but what else can Labour do aside from dumping their leader at this point? http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/national-still-ahead-in-polls-despite-rapist-remarks-2015112217#disqus_thread

westerly
23-11-2015, 02:33 PM
It's not only the other leaders who praise Key. Most polls taken here put him head-and-shoulders ahead of the opposition, here, where it counts. maybe you are right and my betting system will not make a profit but it will keep me entertained and will use up a fraction of what I make elsewhere. Just for the record, my only bet so far today was $10 to win on Opie Bossons horse in the second race at 1.05 this afternoon and I a quite happy with the $25 I got back. Horseracing is the sport of kings - left wing politics is the refuge of fools. At the end of the day made $19 from 17 bets

The sport of kings previously applied to hunting and John certainly hunts publicity. Poll results on the most popular inevitably reflect who is getting the most publicity in the media, good or bad, and John gets more than a head start there.
The TAB and the taxpayer are most grateful for the 20% you donate on each dollar bet so of course it is the left voting punters who are losing ? :)

westerly

craic
23-11-2015, 09:19 PM
Most punters contribute 100% of each bet, including the 20% which is administration and tax. I know this. I am a numbers man. My task is to profit from the system by developing an equation that I can work an modify. If I am successful, it won't be the first time.

Sgt Pepper
23-11-2015, 10:26 PM
Here's my two cents worth. National are in a unique position as there is no effective opposition. Labour is the only party with enough clout to get anywhere near forming a governing coalition but tthey keep missing the opportunity. Since Helen's day they have had Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe and now Little. None of them can gain traction and each leadership change seems to bring a new raft of policies. To make any impression in the next election they should dump Little tomorrow, he's just not making the grade; elect a new leader (there must be someone with public appeal) and get stuck into promoting sensible policies and drop the negative whining nonsense. Then they might get a lift in the polls. Mind you they'd have to be careful to target National voters. Nothing to be gained by going for those who have defected to Greens. I reckon our next govt. will be National, Act and Winston first; (include Peter Dunne and The Maori party if they can hang on in there.)

What will Winston do.? Winston , it could be argued, is a frustrated National Party leader who saw himself inheriting Rob Muldoons crown. He seems to have an intense dislike of John Key, but who knows what he would do if offered a chance to wield power again in 2017. Might be a replay of the notorious 3008 pre election, National Party gathering, " if we want power we will have to swallow dead rats"

westerly
24-11-2015, 07:45 AM
Most punters contribute 100% of each bet, including the 20% which is administration and tax. I know this. I am a numbers man. My task is to profit from the system by developing an equation that I can work an modify. If I am successful, it won't be the first time.

Good luck Craic, I have been trying for 50 years, I kept a record of all bets for several years and in one I achieved a small profit. The rest made me decide to just carry on and enjoy the odd win. As a 10 bob punter it doesn.t cost a lot Good luck with the numbers.

westerly

Sgt Pepper
24-11-2015, 02:22 PM
Just got my Flag Referendum voting papers today.

At the same time I was reading an article on the governments refusal to repatriate the remains of New Zealand Servicemen killed during the Malaysian Emergency. You see the cost, between $170K-$250k is apparently way too much, according to John Key so he has categorically ruled it out. So those soldiers who got killed serving under our present flag are apparently not worth spending any money on. Yet he can justify spending $26 million on a flag referendum. Pretty outrageous. No doubt if it is revisited Crosby Textor will have some advice......for a price that is

fungus pudding
24-11-2015, 02:44 PM
What will Winston do.? Winston , it could be argued, is a frustrated National Party leader who saw himself inheriting Rob Muldoons crown. He seems to have an intense dislike of John Key, but who knows what he would do if offered a chance to wield power again in 2017.

I do. ,

craic
24-11-2015, 03:03 PM
Just got my Flag Referendum voting papers today.

At the same time I was reading an article on the governments refusal to repatriate the remains of New Zealand Servicemen killed during the Malaysian Emergency. You see the cost, between $170K-$250k is apparently way too much, according to John Key so he has categorically ruled it out. So those soldiers who got killed serving under our present flag are apparently not worth spending any money on. Yet he can justify spending $26 million on a flag referendum. Pretty outrageous. No doubt if it is revisited Crosby Textor will have some advice......for a price that is
And why would they do that? I have family members on Gallipoli, one in the sea near Imbros and one on the Somme. Where would they start and where would they finish? Much as you detest the Prime Minister, the decision is a practical one, made by people have no political motive.

Sgt Pepper
24-11-2015, 03:29 PM
[QUOTE=craic;598578]And why would they do that? I have family members on Gallipoli, one in the sea near Imbros and one on the Somme. Where would they start and where would they finish? Much as you detest the Prime Minister, the decision is a practical one, made by people have no political motive.[/QUOTE

Craic
My great Uncle was killed at Callipoli, he was being carried off wounded when shot by a Turkish sniper. He is buried in a CWGC grave. The issue the brother of the SAS soldier killed in Malaysia has is that his brother was not buried in a protected CWGC grave consequently wants him returned home.
I don't " detest" the Prime Minister, I don't meekly accept that everything he says and does is correct and wonderful like you seem to do. I note the deafening silence on the $26 million.

Daytr
02-12-2015, 07:44 AM
Key's National's reign of botch ups and illogical policy continues. Key's popularity obviously is independent of performance.
Has a prime minister under their watch had so many major policy failures.
Just in recent times we have had the debacle which is SERCO managing MT Eden and now Wiri has also been called into the review.
DOC is a mess after their restructure 18 months ago which is now having to be reversed, after ripping the heart out of the organization.
Key at the climate change summit allocates large amounts of funds to research our most polluting industry being dairy & mitigation to the our Pacific Island neighbours. How about stop funding fossil fuel exploration for big oil corporations. How about stopping the likes of Fonterra burning coal to power their dairy plants. How about supporting green energy production. How about restoring the budget for DOC or even increasing it.
Then overnight the government's own treasury reports that the Christchurch rebuild anchor projects have been given a red rating. From the report.

"Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable," the description said. A red rating implied there were "major issues" with project definition, budget and benefits.

But according to the government, their own treasury have got it wrong!

Then there is (its a long list!) the embarrassing police raid on journalist Heather du Plessis-Allan home. Its not the first time the arm of the law has been used in a intimidating way. Think Dotcom & Nicky Hager. Du Plessis-Allan was one of the most vocal & hard hitting journalists in regards the Sheepgate scandal (another to add to the list above) Is it purely coincidence? There is a pattern of behavior here. Du Plessis Allan's work on the loophole in obtaining a firearm in NZ was very good investigative journalism and the system has been changed due to what she uncovered. These precedents using the law at the whim of either the PM or his government is very dangerous ground indeed. Don't question the PM, don't report on their dubious behavior, don't challenge them, otherwise you might find yourself under investigation. Du Plessis Allan should be being lauded, not investigated.

craic
02-12-2015, 10:25 AM
Haven't you worked it out yet Daytr? You have assessed an incredible list of conspiracies or conspiracy theories that exist in your mind - your reasoning. A huge part of the population, a majority in recent elections and polls, consider your views to be rubbish. The case against H DPA is being taken by the Police on the grounds that she committed a serious criminal offence under the firearms laws and the matter will go before a Court of Law where a Judge will decide the outcome. Journalists are not allowed to offend against the law to get a story. John Key is likely to finish upon election night with a much bigger smile on his face than you are. And, as I said before, I have money to put on it - if you are interested.

Daytr
02-12-2015, 11:14 AM
Hi Craic, I would be interested to hear the conspiracies you refer. All of the above has happened, none of it is fiction.
As I said his popularity does not run with his own government's performance.
Imagine the uproar if Labour had more than trebled the government debt!

craic
08-12-2015, 06:23 AM
The problem is Daytr that you don't understand debt. Countless people in NZ have a "Debt" that is as much as, or more than, five times their gross annual income. It's a house, and it's a good debt because it eventually changes to asset status, just like the one I am sitting in now. John Key has a proven record of understanding finance - He's probably a lot wealthier than most posters on this forum - and he understands debt. That is one of the reasons for his popularity and his success. And now that he has Judith Collins back beside him, the role of the opposition is bleaker than it has been for a while.

Daytr
08-12-2015, 08:16 AM
Being an ex banker Craic, I think I understand debt very well. John Key does as well, but he doesn't care what he is doing to the NZ economy.
There are several flaws in your argument. Key has trebled debt, whilst selling assets, not buying assets funded by debt as you suggest.
He has sold 50% of the electricity generators a huge dividend payer to the government. He also sold these at bargain basement , as with everything with Key he had to do it in a rush, flooding the market in a short amount of time.

With Collins behind him due to the sacking of the inept Minister of Corrections, I think Key will be watching his back.
Et tu Brute?

Sgt Pepper
08-12-2015, 08:38 AM
Being an ex banker Craic, I think I understand debt very well. John Key does as well, but he doesn't care what he is doing to the NZ economy.
There are several flaws in your argument. Key has trebled debt, whilst selling assets, not buying assets funded by debt as you suggest.
He has sold 50% of the electricity generators a huge dividend payer to the government. He also sold these at bargain basement , as with everything with Key he had to do it in a rush, flooding the market in a short amount of time.

With Collins behind him due to the sacking of the inept Minister of Corrections, I think Key will be watching his back.
Et tu Brute?

Judith Collins action plan

1. get back into cabinet
2. gleefully await NZ Flag referendum results, privately gloat over John Keys failure.
3. craft a plan to deal to Paula Bennett
4. Cosy up to Michael Woodhouse, as he will be your future deputy

iceman
08-12-2015, 10:17 AM
Daytr you don't let facts get in your way too much saying John Key partially sold electricity generators at bargain prices. Have you forgotten the attack by Labour/Greens that cost the tax payers hundreds if not a billion dollars. Her is Chris Lee & Partners take on it in their latest "Taking Stock" newsletter. He is spot on:

"Who will forget how some oafish politicians cost our taxpayers more than a billion dollars, by pretending that they would seek to attack the electricity generation and retailing sector?

Struggling politicians sought headlines and a caffeine rush by pretending that they could get into power and then control those markets.

Their behavior allowed wealthy investors and fund managers to game the Crown, forcing the Crown, as vendors of companies like Genesis and Meridian, to sell at unfairly low prices, to the benefit of all who bought the shares and to the extreme cost of tax-payers.

The principal political partners in this nonsense have a legacy of value destruction, as far as I can judge."

craic
08-12-2015, 11:12 AM
Daytr, an ex-banker? I'm not at all surprised. One of my cock-relatives who has screwed up two or three careers and had to sell the family home and rent to meet his creditors is now well into a career as a financial adviser for a bank. I wouldn't trust him to change a dollar note but he still manages that superior smile when he comments on my affairs. John Key will outlast his critics and Judith Collins will never emulate Kiwalo - she probably doesn't even play golf.

Sgt Pepper
08-12-2015, 12:05 PM
Daytr, an ex-banker? I'm not at all surprised. One of my cock-relatives who has screwed up two or three careers and had to sell the family home and rent to meet his creditors is now well into a career as a financial adviser for a bank. I wouldn't trust him to change a dollar note but he still manages that superior smile when he comments on my affairs. John Key will outlast his critics and Judith Collins will never emulate Kiwalo - she probably doesn't even play golf.

The moment the good ship John Key sails into stormy seas and takes on water, Judith wont hesitate to act against him. Why would she not? everything to gain , nothing to lose

westerly
08-12-2015, 06:03 PM
Daytr you don't let facts get in your way too much saying John Key partially sold electricity generators at bargain prices. Have you forgotten the attack by Labour/Greens that cost the tax payers hundreds if not a billion dollars. Her is Chris Lee & Partners take on it in their latest "Taking Stock" newsletter. He is spot on:

"Who will forget how some oafish politicians cost our taxpayers more than a billion dollars, by pretending that they would seek to attack the electricity generation and retailing sector?

Struggling politicians sought headlines and a caffeine rush by pretending that they could get into power and then control those markets.

Their behavior allowed wealthy investors and fund managers to game the Crown, forcing the Crown, as vendors of companies like Genesis and Meridian, to sell at unfairly low prices, to the benefit of all who bought the shares and to the extreme cost of tax-payers.

The principal political partners in this nonsense have a legacy of value destruction, as far as I can judge."

I have some respect for Chris Lee as someone who is not afraid to speak his mind but he is pushing it a bit here.
The Crown did not sell the power companies, John Key made an election promise to sell them and followed through, even though Treasury advised against selling 3 companies so close together. If the Labour policy was so damaging to the selling price Key could have held back on the final 2 sales until after the election.
The present share prices of all 3 companies are not that much above the price Key sold them at which indicates the initial pricing was not that far out.
Of course Treasury are usually wrong in Nationals view as illustrated by their rubbishing of Treasury questioning the economic value of the Christchurch anchor projects.

westerly

Daytr
08-12-2015, 08:20 PM
Key is an ex banker as well Craic.... haha


Daytr, an ex-banker? I'm not at all surprised. One of my cock-relatives who has screwed up two or three careers and had to sell the family home and rent to meet his creditors is now well into a career as a financial adviser for a bank. I wouldn't trust him to change a dollar note but he still manages that superior smile when he comments on my affairs. John Key will outlast his critics and Judith Collins will never emulate Kiwalo - she probably doesn't even play golf.

Daytr
08-12-2015, 08:32 PM
Iceman, Westerly has already summed it up quite nicely, but I think you need to understand the difference between what is a fact and what is someone's view. FYI I was against the sale, but it wasn't something that I was overly concerned about either, however like the flag referendum the process was flawed and rushed and it this also impacted the outcome. I think there were far better things that could have been done that would have benefitted all NZers, not just the ones who could afford to buy shares. But the main reason I pointed this out was to correct Craic's falsehood that Key trebled the debt to increase the asset base, when he has in fact sold assets.


Daytr you don't let facts get in your way too much saying John Key partially sold electricity generators at bargain prices. Have you forgotten the attack by Labour/Greens that cost the tax payers hundreds if not a billion dollars. Her is Chris Lee & Partners take on it in their latest "Taking Stock" newsletter. He is spot on:

"Who will forget how some oafish politicians cost our taxpayers more than a billion dollars, by pretending that they would seek to attack the electricity generation and retailing sector?

Struggling politicians sought headlines and a caffeine rush by pretending that they could get into power and then control those markets.

Their behavior allowed wealthy investors and fund managers to game the Crown, forcing the Crown, as vendors of companies like Genesis and Meridian, to sell at unfairly low prices, to the benefit of all who bought the shares and to the extreme cost of tax-payers.

The principal political partners in this nonsense have a legacy of value destruction, as far as I can judge."

craic
09-12-2015, 07:19 AM
Not so. He was with Merrill Lynch, one of the worlds largest securities/ brokerage firms. That firm became part of the Bank of America just a few years ago, long after his time. One of my family holds a fairly high position there and move to Bank of America with the firm and he is not a banker by any stretch of the imagination.
Key is an ex banker as well Craic.... haha

craic
09-12-2015, 07:26 AM
. But the main reason I pointed this out was to correct Craic's falsehood that Key trebled the debt to increase the asset base, when he has in fact sold assets.

Datyr, what you create inside your head is not my problem but I defy you point out where I said that "Key trebled the debt to increase the asset base"

Daytr
09-12-2015, 07:45 PM
Actually quite so. He was head of Foreign Exchange for Merrill Lynch in both Asia & then New York and was a member of the Foreign Exchange committee for the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Merrill Lynch was very much a Merchant Bank.


Not so. He was with Merrill Lynch, one of the worlds largest securities/ brokerage firms. That firm became part of the Bank of America just a few years ago, long after his time. One of my family holds a fairly high position there and move to Bank of America with the firm and he is not a banker by any stretch of the imagination.

Daytr
09-12-2015, 07:51 PM
Quite right. I don't think you would ever admit that Key has more than trebled the debt, no matter how true it is. However you implied that Key is increasing debt to increase the asset base and that debt gets converted to assets over time, which is again is quite incorrect.

If my interpretation is wrong then I apologies & by all means please explain why you think Key is a great financial manager whilst the government debt has exploded under his reign.


Datyr, what you create inside your head is not my problem but I defy you point out where I said that "Key trebled the debt to increase the asset base"

craic
10-12-2015, 08:55 AM
Actually quite so. He was head of Foreign Exchange for Merrill Lynch in both Asia & then New York and was a member of the Foreign Exchange committee for the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Merrill Lynch was very much a Merchant Bank.

rubbish. You are into your usual rubbish of painting an elephant yellow and calling it a canary. Try and open a cheque account with the old ML or borrow money for your mortgage. My son is one of their Vice presidents, Europe.

craic
10-12-2015, 09:04 AM
No I didn't imply. You painted another elephant yellow. Ask the NZ voters - they keep telling you why The Prime Minister is their preferred manager instead of some wally from the Greens - with a can of yellow paint. I will return to my horses that made me $97 at Ellerslie yesterday and hopefully will do the same at Hastings today. Winston Peters is probably doing the same but we're not alike - I don't smoke.

Daytr
10-12-2015, 06:08 PM
No its not rubbish & I don't care who you know. You obviously just understand what banks do. You wouldn't be the only one. A lot of people don't understand the complex world of merchant banking. You are describing a retail bank, I am describing an Investment Bank, or Merchant Bank. However they are all banks.


rubbish. You are into your usual rubbish of painting an elephant yellow and calling it a canary. Try and open a cheque account with the old ML or borrow money for your mortgage. My son is one of their Vice presidents, Europe.

craic
11-12-2015, 07:19 AM
Merrill Lynch is now just an arm of the Bank Of America. They retain then name simply because there are investors who might find it hard to invest with any BOM but ML is neutral. BOM only retained critical staff when they took over ML. including my bloke who gets NZ$250K per annum. I manage his market portfolio here There is a bank close to my house - it's not a merchant bank or a retail bank - my chickens lay eggs on it but canaries go elsewhere.

westerly
11-12-2015, 09:01 AM
Merrill Lynch is now just an arm of the Bank Of America. They retain then name simply because there are investors who might find it hard to invest with any BOM but ML is neutral. BOM only retained critical staff when they took over ML. including my bloke who gets NZ$250K per annum. I manage his market portfolio here There is a bank close to my house - it's not a merchant bank or a retail bank - my chickens lay eggs on it but canaries go elsewhere.

250k? Most competent bankers get more than that as a xmas bonus

westerly

craic
11-12-2015, 10:38 AM
Bollocks. He is not a banker - he is an IT expert. Go around any bank in NZ and find me any staff member who gets that sort of bonus. You were a banker, or so you claim. What was your last bonus?

westerly
11-12-2015, 11:12 AM
Bollocks. He is not a banker - he is an IT expert. Go around any bank in NZ and find me any staff member who gets that sort of bonus. You were a banker, or so you claim. What was your last bonus?

Gee Craic I think it might have been half a dozen beer, as for being a banker I do have various accounts so I suppose tthat qualifies me.
Lighten up:)

westerly

Sgt Pepper
11-12-2015, 01:41 PM
Gee Craic I think it might have been half a dozen beer, as for being a banker I do have various accounts so I suppose tthat qualifies me.
Lighten up:)

westerly

Craic does at time get very sensitive and irritable, as I have discovered when I dispute that his hero John Key does not actually walk on water

Sgt Pepper
11-12-2015, 01:41 PM
Gee Craic I think it might have been half a dozen beer, as for being a banker I do have various accounts so I suppose tthat qualifies me.
Lighten up:)

westerly

Craic does at time get very sensitive and irritable, as I have discovered when I dispute that his hero John Key does not actually walk on water

craic
11-12-2015, 02:32 PM
My humblest apologies! For some reason I thought it was a post from Daytr, who I am sure has been a banker - monopoly does count you know. As to John Key being my hero, wrong again - he is nowhere close enough to Donald Trump for me. I get irritated with the left when they try to portray him as a moron and overlook the circus full of clowns they have produced in recent years. My basic philosophy is one nation, one people with a complete cut out of all the racial handouts and privilidges that are in place to reinforce the idea that Maori - and others- are somehow deprived or less capable than the nasty Europeans. This is the worst form of racism.

Daytr
11-12-2015, 07:42 PM
Craic, there are many people work for banks who do support roles such as your son if he does IT, but he works for a bank. John Key however was a banker working in the FX markets. If you did a modicum of research on Merrill Lynch you could see they were a bank and are now part of a larger bank.
I've never said Key is a moron, he's obviously quite smart, that doesn't mean he is working in the best interests of New Zealand as a whole however.
Nice rant about Māori, you would do well not to visit the East Cape or Northland. Worst form of racism huh. Now that takes the cake!

craic
11-12-2015, 08:23 PM
I was a NZ Forest Service Inspector on the East Coast for several years and thirty years in the criminal justice system, all the time in close association with Maori. That concept of racism is not mine - It was the view of a world renowned expert, published in the Dominion years ago. It was a foundation principle for Winston Peters until he became infatuated with his own image.

Daytr
12-12-2015, 05:15 AM
Agreed its not original as have heard it before.
However in the case of Māori or even women, when a particular sect has been oppressed or worse for generations, it does take imbalance to right the wrongs and bring the affected party onto a level playing field. I'm not saying every grant or benefit is a good idea, but they do need help to make generational change. Education is obviously one of the best tools, however what Europeans expect and Māori may want, can be too entirely different things due to cultural values and that should be respected.

craic
12-12-2015, 08:06 AM
Having worked closely with people who are activists in this area for several decades and people at both the top and bottom of the pile, culture is being devised and revised as they go. I could list a hundred examples but I wont. It's exactly the same as Christianity. The original idea is published by apostles. It is then re-interpreted by later gurus and before you know it you have a dozen or so religions, umpteen cults. Why? Because some individual sees an advantage for him - a chance of power or elevation to high status. In Maoridom it is piles of money assets and status. I knew of one or two who when I assessed them forty years ago through the System, were of limited intelligence. And now they are there as elders with some grey hair and a carved stick. This is of course, a generalisation, but it is common enough to be a real hurdle. Before I am branded racist, I can say that I am a Irish Catholic Republican from several very poor Irish families. My maternal grandfather was illiterate - his son was a republican leader well educated, and served Many years as a senator in the Irish Senate.

Daytr
13-12-2015, 07:45 AM
In Maoridom they owned piles of assets in fact they owned the entire country and in many cases their land was stolen or they were swindled, even as recently as WW11 by the government. So it's called compensation and so they should be. Perhapsif some had walled in Māori shoes for the last few generations they may get an understanding how poorly Māori have been treated. Its one thing I am very proud of as a NZer that we lead the way globally in this regard. I don't agree with every compensation claim & some are outright ridiculous and that tarnishes the legitimate claims. It obviously at some stage soon needs to come to an end so we can move on as a country. At that point, it might be a good time to change the flag.... ;-)

craic
13-12-2015, 09:50 AM
Many of the claimants - the most vocal ones are at least half European and seem to think that I, an Irishman, and others like me, should be compensating the for something that some of their whanau did to others of their whanau donkeys years ago. I hate to say it but plunder, pillage and land grabbing was the way of life here long before any of us foreigners arrived. As a matter of interest, the very first Maori I spoke to in a pub in Lyttleton when I was still at sea, told me his name was Murphy ( the most common Irish Surname) His response to my surprise was to assure me that he wasn't really a Maori but a Tehnicolour Irishman.

Daytr
13-12-2015, 01:52 PM
I love your anecdotes Craic, however the main issue is that they are not evidence or an accurate picture in the main.
Yep Māori were warriors & as such were never conquered. The only aboriginal people in the British Empire to have this claim to fame I believe.
They signed a Treaty and the spirit of that treaty wasn't honored and that is now being rectified & justly so.
You obviously have a very different view of Māori (evidence from your own posts) than I do, so we are probably never going to agree on what should or needs to be done. Nothing new there I that regard.

Daytr
13-12-2015, 05:31 PM
The latest global climate change summit agreement just shows how out of touch National's policy is in regards sponsoring fossil fuel exploration around NZs coastline. Not only has been apparent anything discovered would be uneconomic, the success rate as been abysmal and its investing in an industry that will be wound down & shunned by investors and consumers more & more over time. Whilst wasting 10s of millions of tax payer funds on this folly they have cut the budget to DOC. National does not care about the environment they just see it as for its exploitation value.
Completely out of touch and living in an era that is swiftly coming to a close.
Governments should be looking to the future, not living in the past.
No vision and no clue.

Major von Tempsky
14-12-2015, 05:09 PM
I have made some suggestions on New Forum rules which would vastly improve this thread.

"Elections thread is where behaviour gets most out of hand with a succession of very left wing commentators attempting to impose their point of view on everyone else by non-stop posting. I have counted and commented on where one of these people have posted 5 times in succession (several times) with no other poster getting a word in. They are also quick to call other posters fascists, racist any other hateful label they can think of. They are there every day without letting up in their attempt to impose a party line and politically correct thinking. I suggest rules that (a) no poster may post more than one post at a time (b) posters may not put up more than 2 posts per day on any one thread (c) posters can only post on alternate days (d) personal abuse of other posters is out including labeling them as fascist or racist.
cheers,
The Major "

Major von Tempsky
15-12-2015, 07:23 AM
Ahh! An early Xmas present....

"Support for National remains just above 50 per cent in the latest Herald-DigiPoll survey.

National's support is up slightly to 51.3 per cent, while Labour remains well behind on 31.1 per cent.

Both the Greens and NZ First are down around 1 per cent, to 8.2 and 5.7 per cent respectively.

But the Maori Party has had a bump in support, up 1.1 per cent to 2.1.

ACT and UnitedFuture are both polling below 1 per cent.

In the preferred prime minister stakes, John Key is well ahead with the backing of 65.2 per cent of voters.

Labour's Andrew Little is up 2.9 per cent to 16.2.

NZ First leader Winston Peters is back on 7.9 per cent."

Sgt Pepper
15-12-2015, 08:51 AM
I have made some suggestions on New Forum rules which would vastly improve this thread.

"Elections thread is where behaviour gets most out of hand with a succession of very left wing commentators attempting to impose their point of view on everyone else by non-stop posting. I have counted and commented on where one of these people have posted 5 times in succession (several times) with no other poster getting a word in. They are also quick to call other posters fascists, racist any other hateful label they can think of. They are there every day without letting up in their attempt to impose a party line and politically correct thinking. I suggest rules that (a) no poster may post more than one post at a time (b) posters may not put up more than 2 posts per day on any one thread (c) posters can only post on alternate days (d) personal abuse of other posters is out including labeling them as fascist or racist.
cheers,
The Major "

Pot calling the kettle black, me thinks

iceman
15-12-2015, 10:37 AM
Ahh! An early Xmas present....

"Support for National remains just above 50 per cent in the latest Herald-DigiPoll survey.

National's support is up slightly to 51.3 per cent, while Labour remains well behind on 31.1 per cent.

Both the Greens and NZ First are down around 1 per cent, to 8.2 and 5.7 per cent respectively.

But the Maori Party has had a bump in support, up 1.1 per cent to 2.1.

ACT and UnitedFuture are both polling below 1 per cent.

In the preferred prime minister stakes, John Key is well ahead with the backing of 65.2 per cent of voters.

Labour's Andrew Little is up 2.9 per cent to 16.2.

NZ First leader Winston Peters is back on 7.9 per cent."

Yes I think John Key and National will be pretty satisfied with this end of year poll, after 7 years in power. He appears to be much more popular with voters than could be construed from this thread. Must be the noisy minority albeit a lot less noisy with EZ not here anymore. I hope he comes back.
The glaring result from this poll is that it appears Winston's star may be fading and NZF voters will go back home to National, except Daytr. But as he is not a Leftie, or so he says, he'd have to vote for ACT unless he is a secret admirer of Key as I suspect may be the case

artemis
15-12-2015, 02:47 PM
I think political threads are just fine as they are. We should expect strong views, that is the nature of politics. I would have a problem restricting how many times someone can post. Simple enough to 'ignore' them.

Daytr
15-12-2015, 07:46 PM
I will vote where the best policy sits, be that Left or Right. I voted for NZF in the by-election because it was the right thing for Northland & its proven to be so with Northland getting much more attention and funding.

But clearly I won't be voting for a Key lead National, as I care about the environment, our national health system and the level of debt that National has incurred since being in government. I will always do well, but I care about the greater good & not just inking the already well to do's pockets.
If that makes me a lefty in your eyes so be it, however I maintain as I have always said, I'm a centrist.

iceman
16-12-2015, 01:09 AM
I care enormously about the environment too Daytr. I have worked in the natural resources industry all my life and was taught from childhood by my grandfather to take care of nature. I have always endeavoured to do so and am proud of many of my achievements to change practices in my industry. I do not believe in trying to stop all industries in the name of the environment but believe in working with industries to continuously improve practices. Unlike the extreme "green brigade" that simply talk the talk, I walk the walk.
I belong to the BlueGreens where many common sense policies are developed and suggest you join us..

Key gets attacked from his left but no less from his right, even within his own party. That indicates clearly how centrist he and his Government have been and the polls prove it.

If he was as "hard right" as many on here claim he is, he would have taken the knife to some of the more expensive legacy projects and bribes introduced by Helen Clark and Michael Cullen, to reduce costs/debt.
Start with the Working For Families which is simply nuts.
Interest free student loans being one of the biggest rorts (free money for "the rich") and the most blatant election bribing in recent memory. Here an interesting recent article about student costs and the stupidity of the loan scheme http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/79126/nz-initiatives-khyaati-acharya-asks-whether-tertiary-students-fully-grasp-degree-which

I will be watching with interest, the Finnish experiment (a small trial for starters) to eliminate the welfare system completely and pay everyone about 1000 EURO per month.

Daytr
16-12-2015, 06:33 AM
Good on you Iceman. I come from a Natural Resources back ground as well. And being green should not be a left or right issue, but unfortunately Key's national has a very poor record on regards environmental protection and or resource exploitation such as the ridiculous oil exploration and potential drilling partnership with the likes of Stat Oil.
And agree with you in some regards, but then there are also times when the exploitation doesn't make sense or the environment should be protected fully from exploitation. I could not support a party with a record in this area such as National. Key's response to the Paris Summit says it all. He is one of the leading heads of state at dragging his heels in regards doing our bit in regards climate change. He either doesn't believe in the man made impact on the atmosphere or doesn't care, I'm not sure which.

Sgt Pepper
16-12-2015, 08:50 AM
I care enormously about the environment too Daytr. I have worked in the natural resources industry all my life and was taught from childhood by my grandfather to take care of nature. I have always endeavoured to do so and am proud of many of my achievements to change practices in my industry. I do not believe in trying to stop all industries in the name of the environment but believe in working with industries to continuously improve practices. Unlike the extreme "green brigade" that simply talk the talk, I walk the walk.
I belong to the BlueGreens where many common sense policies are developed and suggest you join us..

Key gets attacked from his left but no less from his right, even within his own party. That indicates clearly how centrist he and his Government have been and the polls prove it.

If he was as "hard right" as many on here claim he is, he would have taken the knife to some of the more expensive legacy projects and bribes introduced by Helen Clark and Michael Cullen, to reduce costs/debt.
Start with the Working For Families which is simply nuts.
Interest free student loans being one of the biggest rorts (free money for "the rich") and the most blatant election bribing in recent memory. Here an interesting recent article about student costs and the stupidity of the loan scheme http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/79126/nz-initiatives-khyaati-acharya-asks-whether-tertiary-students-fully-grasp-degree-which

I will be watching with interest, the Finnish experiment (a small trial for starters) to eliminate the welfare system completely and pay everyone about 1000 EURO per month.

Hi Iceman
The idea of a universal basic income is indeed an exciting one and ,unusually has support from both left and right economists. The complexities of delivering a range of targeted benefits is indeed a challenge and must be extremely difficult for WINZ / IRD staff at the end of a phone, or face to face calculating entitlements to different circumstances. A substantial part of the bureaucracy delivering government transfer payments could be eliminated Consequently a GBI seems very attractive and my initial response is lets just do it. Its something a brave government/opposition party could campaign on however the present National Government is very risk averse, and I don't think Labour would either. However I concede there could be issues I haven't considered
. What are others opinions?

Daytr
16-12-2015, 07:15 PM
Not a fan SP. Work is more than just income it also produces a pride and sense of achievement. I'm all for stripping back the benefit system and make it simpler and easier to administer. I also think the pension should be means tested and there should be random drug testing for benefits like the dole.
The idea of a UBI has also Benn driven by the thought that automation & robotics & computers will replace many of the jobs we do now. That may be truer, but there are plenty of jobs that we don't value, particularly in regards the environment that we could in future. The trouble with looking at something in a pure economic sense is its only one driver of many.

Daytr
16-12-2015, 09:05 PM
Iceman, I just watched The U.S vs John Lennon & the battle Lennon had with the Nixon administration.

Nixon was re-elected in 1972 by quite a margin and we all know what happened to him and is now seen as a political pariah.
Key in someway reminds me of Nixon, particularly with his miss-use of power in regards the GCSB on multiple occasions & Nixon did the same courtesy of Hoover & the FBI. Raids on Dotcom, Nicky Hager & now Du-Plessis-allan by the police. Sad state of affairs.


Yes I think John Key and National will be pretty satisfied with this end of year poll, after 7 years in power. He appears to be much more popular with voters than could be construed from this thread. Must be the noisy minority albeit a lot less noisy with EZ not here anymore. I hope he comes back.
The glaring result from this poll is that it appears Winston's star may be fading and NZF voters will go back home to National, except Daytr. But as he is not a Leftie, or so he says, he'd have to vote for ACT unless he is a secret admirer of Key as I suspect may be the case

iceman
16-12-2015, 09:34 PM
Iceman, I just watched The U.S vs John Lennon & the battle Lennon had with the Nixon administration.

Nixon was re-elected in 1972 by quite a margin and we all know what happened to him and is now seen as a political pariah.
Key in someway reminds me of Nixon, particularly with his miss-use of power in regards the GCSB on multiple occasions & Nixon did the same courtesy of Hoover & the FBI. Raids on Dotcom, Nicky Hager & now Du-Plessis-allan by the police. Sad state of affairs.

John Key = Richard Nixon. Ummmm. Love your sense of humour

Sgt Pepper
17-12-2015, 11:12 PM
John Key = Richard Nixon. Ummmm. Love your sense of humour

I quite agree Iceman. Comparing John Key to Richard Nixon is ridiculous, Nixon was intelligent and had some scruples

artemis
18-12-2015, 10:57 AM
UBI - Finland is experimenting and seems it will be voluntary. So only those who will benefit will sign up. Still it should provide useful information, particularly about impact on working or not-working, whether targeted help is still needed by some and how tax will be managed.

In the UK the idea is also being kicked around and seems that adults would get a set amount and each child would also get a set amount. But housing would need to be dealt with separately.

Housing would also be an issue here.

Once parallel systems are needed for say - housing, disability, different locations, emergency help, tax system changes ..... - then it's starting to look less like a universal income and more like what NZ has now except that some get $$ they don't need.

Still, worth having a conversation about it.

Daytr
18-12-2015, 06:52 PM
And yet Nicky Hager raids judged illegal by the high court. Dotcom's raids were also illegal.
Remember what Nixon was done for & there are certainly similarities.


John Key = Richard Nixon. Ummmm. Love your sense of humour

Major von Tempsky
18-12-2015, 07:23 PM
Nixon was done for (a) knowing about the break in at Watergate where 2 burglars tried to filch material from the Democratic Party offices at Watergate (b) destroying evidence (mostly his own Nixon tapes).

Any resemblance to John Key is hyperbolic and very far fetched. Its also putting the cart before the horse since it was actually Nicky Hager who at the least, received stolen property and blessed hacking.

It was totally disbelieved at the last election and in all the public opinion polls since. The trouble with putting up such nonsense stories, crying Wolf! is that you immensely deflate your credibility whenever anything else comes up. Hence the poll results, and may I add, the next election results...

You need to find a believable issue(s). Shades of Belge and EZ.

Daytr
18-12-2015, 08:24 PM
Well it was the police & GCSB that illegally tried to 'gather' evidence against Hager & Dotcom, so the bow isn't that far stretched. Both had become political and challenged the current government.

Sgt Pepper
19-12-2015, 12:36 PM
Well it was the police & GCSB that illegally tried to 'gather' evidence against Hager & Dotcom, so the bow isn't that far stretched. Both had become political and challenged the current government.

Daytr
Its no good trying to persuade the Major. His constant watching of Fox News has created a political myopia which is probably incurable. If Mother Theresa was the leader of the Labour or the Greens he would find fault.

fungus pudding
19-12-2015, 03:18 PM
Daytr
Its no good trying to persuade the Major. His constant watching of Fox News has created a political myopia which is probably incurable. If Mother Theresa was the leader of the Labour or the Greens he would find fault.
What a terrifying thought.

777
19-12-2015, 03:39 PM
Well it must be time for another leadership change. Mother Theresa might give them a chance.

fungus pudding
19-12-2015, 04:56 PM
Well it must be time for another leadership change. Mother Theresa might give them a chance.

Except she's even deader than Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe and Little.

BIRMANBOY
19-12-2015, 05:15 PM
LOL Raising the dead is probably now on the agenda at the next Labour meeting...all other options seem to have been tried and come up wanting...so definitely worth a shot.
Except she's even deader than Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe and Little.

Daytr
19-12-2015, 05:30 PM
Speaking of leaders, I've been impressed by James Shaw since he became co-leader of the Greens.

fungus pudding
19-12-2015, 05:30 PM
LOL Raising the dead is probably now on the agenda at the next Labour meeting...all other options seem to have been tried and come up wanting...so definitely worth a shot.
Guess we'll have to wait till Easter to find out.

Sgt Pepper
19-12-2015, 06:03 PM
Guess we'll have to wait till Easter to find out.

Just you wait, we will have a Labour Government, just not sure if its 2017, 2020, or 2023, but it will happen(I think)

Have an enjoyable Christmas

fungus pudding
19-12-2015, 06:31 PM
Just you wait, we will have a Labour Government, just not sure if its 2017, 2020, or 2023, but it will happen(I think)

Have an enjoyable Christmas

You're possibly right, maybe, perhaps - I think, although it's unlikely to be so soon.

Daytr
19-12-2015, 08:20 PM
Too many vultures in the National party for them to survive. First sign of weakness & Collins & co will be lining up like a Roman senate & then they will implode.

Sgt Pepper
20-12-2015, 12:26 PM
Too many vultures in the National party for them to survive. First sign of weakness & Collins & co will be lining up like a Roman senate & then they will implode.

I agree . I have discussed this scenario frequently in these posts but they are usually dismissed by National Party supporters as unlikely as the interests of the Party will always supercede any unrealised ambition from the likes of Judith Collins, Michael Woodhouse and Simon Bridges. I am not sure what the basis of their delusion is but I believe they are being somewhat nave about human nature and the dangers of unrealised ambition in a political party.

If they seriously believe Judith Coliins will just hang around until John Key realises his ambition of being PM longer than Keith Holyoake( roughly 2021), getting a Knighthood, and being appointed High Commissioner to London they are either incredibly naieve or smoking something illegal.

In either case its going to be a treat watching Judith Collins destabilise and replace John Key. She has everything to gain and nothing to lose. Let the fun begin

Sgt Pepper
20-12-2015, 12:47 PM
Well it must be time for another leadership change. Mother Theresa might give them a chance.

It might. However once Judith Collins deals to John Key National will have the real life reincarnation of Jadis the White Witch of Narnia in charge

Snapper
20-12-2015, 08:11 PM
The chances of Judith Collins becoming leader are absolutely zero. As far as the voting public is concerned, she is poison. We're OK with her being a minister but a PM? No way!

It seems to me that the left is going after the wrong guy with their obsession with John Key. It's the economy, stupid! If they think it's being well-managed, they'll put up with any number of ponytails being pulled, Kiwis being deported from Australia, trade agreements et al. National's management of the economy is the key and Bill English is the architect of that. Has Grant Robertson made any impact, will he ever be any threat to Bill English?

Until the voting public lose faith in their economic management National are here to stay.

Sgt Pepper
22-12-2015, 08:34 AM
Non thread related observation

Just been to the Warehouse. All this month when you shop and about to pay they ask" do you want to add $1.00 to give to Plunket"? I decline as I really dislike being in shopping cues and being asked for donations. A bit of background before you think Im being mean minded old Grinch.
We give to a charity( CCF) via direct debit every fortnight, and have done for 25years.
When our daughters were little we gave to Plunkett and also went door to door collecting.
Its a personal thing but I find it intrusive to be asked for money in front of many others.
Why don't the Warehouse ask their Shareholders to donate $1.00 deducted from their dividend every payment. Somehow, me thinks they wont.
Anyway that's my rant. What are others opinions

fungus pudding
22-12-2015, 08:48 AM
Non thread related observation

Just been to the Warehouse. All this month when you shop and about to pay they ask" do you want to add $1.00 to give to Plunket"? I decline as I really dislike being in shopping cues and being asked for donations. A bit of background before you think Im being mean minded old Grinch.
We give to a charity( CCF) via direct debit every fortnight, and have done for 25years.
When our daughters were little we gave to Plunkett and also went door to door collecting.
Its a personal thing but I find it intrusive to be asked for money in front of many others.
Why don't the Warehouse ask their Shareholders to donate $1.00 deducted from their dividend every payment. Somehow, me thinks they wont.
Anyway that's my rant. What are others opinions

You are right. Nothing to do with this thread. You are also right about this method of fundraising. I have found myself 'donating' in a chemist's shop while paying for a prescription, as well as 'donating' several times in a supermarket when asked 'do you want your change, or would you like to place it in this appeal box'. It's embarrassing to say no when you are in a queue. It's deplorable and I will never succumb again. I can afford to donate to charities of my choice, and I do so. Not everyone can and I have witnessed several who I feel sure cant really spare their change, nor do they want to buy a ballpoint pen for 'just $2 for a great cause', but nevertheless feel pressured into doing so. In future I intend to note the charity involved and let them know my thoughts on this carry on.

Sgt Pepper
22-12-2015, 09:02 AM
You are right. Nothing to do with this thread. You are also right about this method of fundraising. I have found myself 'donating' in a chemist's shop while paying for a prescription, as well as 'donating' several times in a supermarket when asked 'do you want your change, or would you like to place it in this appeal box'. It's embarrassing to say no when you are in a queue. It's deplorable and I will never succumb again. I can afford to donate to charities of my choice, and I do so. Not everyone can and I have witnessed several who I feel sure cant really spare their change, nor do they want to buy a ballpoint pen for 'just $2 for a great cause', but nevertheless feel pressured into doing so. In future I intend to note the charity involved and let them know my thoughts on this carry on.

Thanks FP
I have felt very lonely when I have expressed my reservations to other concerning this method of fundraising before. One last rant I have just read the article in the Herald regarding John Key and the rock stunt. The guy has set up a petition to remove John Key as a White Ribbon ambassador. I support John Key( rather unique experience for me) this guy comes across as sanctimonious. Has quite the reverse effect. only increases his support in my opinion

fungus pudding
22-12-2015, 09:11 AM
Thanks FP
I have felt very lonely when I have expressed my reservations to other concerning this method of fundraising before. One last rant I have just read the article in the Herald regarding John Key and the rock stunt. The guy has set up a petition to remove John Key as a White Ribbon ambassador. I support John Key( rather unique experience for me) this guy comes across as sanctimonious. Has quite the reverse effect. only increases his support in my opinion

I do too. I note various commentators say John Key should have know this was 'a rape cage' he was asked to step into. In many decades of rugged living, I have never heard of a rape cage, nor has anyone I have asked. I feel sorry for anyone who gets set up like Key was. Certainly he was a bit nave in playing part in any radio prank without advance disclosure of the stunt, but naivety is his only crime in this matter.

Daytr
22-12-2015, 10:03 AM
You forgot to mention flogging off billions of assets and yet still more than trebling the government debt.
If that's managing the economy well, every bankrupt in the country should be discharged and given a medal.
They have squandered so much money on government depart restructures that have had to be reversed.
They have miss-managed the Serco prison debacle.
Happy to give millions to Saudi Businessmen in 'bribes'.
And are about to squander another $30M on a flag referendum that will more than likely fail.

Good money managers!


The chances of Judith Collins becoming leader are absolutely zero. As far as the voting public is concerned, she is poison. We're OK with her being a minister but a PM? No way!

It seems to me that the left is going after the wrong guy with their obsession with John Key. It's the economy, stupid! If they think it's being well-managed, they'll put up with any number of ponytails being pulled, Kiwis being deported from Australia, trade agreements et al. National's management of the economy is the key and Bill English is the architect of that. Has Grant Robertson made any impact, will he ever be any threat to Bill English?

Until the voting public lose faith in their economic management National are here to stay.

craic
22-12-2015, 10:16 AM
I do too. I note various commentators say John Key should have know this was 'a rape cage' he was asked to step into. In many decades of rugged living, I have never heard of a rape cage, nor has anyone I have asked. I feel sorry for anyone who gets set up like Key was. Certainly he was a bit nave in playing part in any radio prank without advance disclosure of the stunt, but naivety is his only crime in this matter.

I spent thirty years of my life in and out of prisons interviewing criminal offenders of all shapes and sizes, including many rapists and other deviants. Like John Key, I knew nothing of the "soap" joke. In fact when the thing was published days ago, it took me sometime to find out what it was all about. If I was a station manager or whatever, I would look seriously at the employment of a journalist who regards this piece of work as anything other than sick low-grade humour.

artemis
22-12-2015, 12:26 PM
You are right. Nothing to do with this thread. You are also right about this method of fundraising. I have found myself 'donating' in a chemist's shop while paying for a prescription, as well as 'donating' several times in a supermarket when asked 'do you want your change, or would you like to place it in this appeal box'. It's embarrassing to say no when you are in a queue. It's deplorable and I will never succumb again. I can afford to donate to charities of my choice, and I do so. Not everyone can and I have witnessed several who I feel sure cant really spare their change, nor do they want to buy a ballpoint pen for 'just $2 for a great cause', but nevertheless feel pressured into doing so. In future I intend to note the charity involved and let them know my thoughts on this carry on.

'No' is a complete sentence.

Definitely not original, but very powerful.

fungus pudding
22-12-2015, 01:05 PM
'No' is a complete sentence.

Definitely not original, but very powerful.

No is sufficient for the checkout operators but a blast at the beneficiary or charity is the way to. makecm some impact

winner69
28-12-2015, 01:00 PM
EZ will not be too excited

Mr Crosby to become a SIR

Good things come to good people

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/knighting-lynton-crosby-likened-to-tony-abbotts-gong-for-prince-philip-20151227-glvl3o.html

fungus pudding
28-12-2015, 01:32 PM
EZ will not be too excited

Mr Crosby to become a SIR

Good things come to good people

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/knighting-lynton-crosby-likened-to-tony-abbotts-gong-for-prince-philip-20151227-glvl3o.html

Must be why the good lord prevents Labour from winning an election. Imagine Sir Matt McCarten.

BlackPeter
29-12-2015, 08:06 AM
You forgot to mention flogging off billions of assets and yet still more than trebling the government debt.
If that's managing the economy well, every bankrupt in the country should be discharged and given a medal.
They have squandered so much money on government depart restructures that have had to be reversed.
They have miss-managed the Serco prison debacle.
Happy to give millions to Saudi Businessmen in 'bribes'.
And are about to squander another $30M on a flag referendum that will more than likely fail.

Good money managers!

Oh dear - it is the season of joy and love ... and all you can do is keep nagging? Must have been a miserable Christmas period for you - please accept my commiserations.

Sure - nobody is perfect, and I am sure there are more things the current government could have done better. However - they do quite well in international comparison, and the tragic thing is just that our opposition seems to be only able to do that (oppose, complain and run down other peoples achievements), no matter whether it is called for or not.

Why don't you / they try instead with a constructive and positive approach? People want to see whether you are able to improve the future instead of tearing down the achievements of the past ...

Until than ... they say that in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. And with an opposition which only seems to be able to nag instead of making positive contributions I expect that the reign of a National led coalition will go on for many terms to come.

Anyway - I hope your New Year celebration is better than your Christmas must have been ... maybe you can than share as well some of the spirit of the season.

May the New Year be prosperous, peaceful, joyful and happy for all of us - and if we could get a somewhat better opposition keeping our government on their toes, this would be great!

Sgt Pepper
29-12-2015, 08:23 AM
Oh dear - it is the season of joy and love ... and all you can do is keep nagging? Must have been a miserable Christmas period for you - please accept my commiserations.

Sure - nobody is perfect, and I am sure there are more things the current government could have done better. However - they do quite well in international comparison, and the tragic thing is just that our opposition seems to be only able to do that (oppose, complain and run down other peoples achievements), no matter whether it is called for or not.

Why don't you / they try instead with a constructive and positive approach? People want to see whether you are able to improve the future instead of tearing down the achievements of the past ...

Until than ... they say that in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. And with an opposition which only seems to be able to nag instead of making positive contributions I expect that the reign of a National led coalition will go on for many terms to come.

Anyway - I hope your New Year celebration is better than your Christmas must have been ... maybe you can than share as well some of the spirit of the season.

May the New Year be prosperous, peaceful, joyful and happy for all of us - and if we could get a somewhat better opposition keeping our government on their toes, this would be great!

You seem to be forgetting we have a Westminster system of government. The Opposition parties "oppose". National, when in opposition, I recall " opposed" virtually everything Labour did. Lets look at he list of things National opposed when a Labour government was in power
1 They opposed the establishment of a national health system for funded free tertiary care
2. They opposed the abolition of the death penalty
3. They opposed establishing diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China.
4. They opposed the establishment of a Superannuation system modelled on that of Singapore.(much to our collective cost since)
5. They opposed the establishment of ACC
6. They opposed the introduction of GST

BlackPeter
29-12-2015, 08:35 AM
You seem to be forgetting we have a Westminster system of government. The Opposition parties "oppose". National, when in opposition, I recall " opposed" virtually everything Labour did. Lets look at he list of things National opposed when a Labour government was in power
1 They opposed the establishment of a national health system for funded free tertiary care
2. They opposed the abolition of the death penalty
3. They opposed establishing diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China.
4. They opposed the establishment of a Superannuation system modelled on that of Singapore.(much to our collective cost since)
5. They opposed the establishment of ACC
6. They opposed the introduction of GST


Hmm - some of the above opposed proposals or achievements I would see as good - and others might be a bit more controversial. But anyway - if I correctly understand you, than you are saying that Labour / Green / NZF and any other opposers) are no bit better than National :p? If that is true, than why should people vote for them? At least we have currently a government which seems to know what they are doing ...

fungus pudding
29-12-2015, 09:49 AM
You seem to be forgetting we have a Westminster system of government. The Opposition parties "oppose". National, when in opposition, I recall " opposed" virtually everything Labour did.


Opposition is an art. Sounding like a whinger doesn't work, and that is Labour's biggest problem which started with Phil Goff, who has been one of their better members, but a dreadful leader in opposition. Winston, useless as he is, is a master opposition MP. The one leader Labour has had which may have turned them around given time, was Shearer. I don't know anyone who disliked him. Nothing wrong with opposing but it should be constructive and loses effect if every single utterance is shot down in a pathetic moaning fashion which has become Labour's style.

Sgt Pepper
29-12-2015, 10:23 AM
Opposition is an art. Sounding like a whinger doesn't work, and that is Labour's biggest problem which started with Phil Goff, who has been one of their better members, but a dreadful leader in opposition. Winston, useless as he is, is a master opposition MP. The one leader Labour has had which may have turned them around given time, was Shearer. I don't know anyone who disliked him. Nothing wrong with opposing but it should be constructive and loses effect if every single utterance is shot down in a pathetic moaning fashion which has become Labour's style.

Often the most productive work is done in select committees away from the glare ( or interest) of the media. I would be interested in opinions regarding Labours achievements which National opposed
1. GST :should National have supported it?
2. Diplomatic relations with the PRC : should National have supported it?
3. Health system. should National have supported it ?

fungus pudding
29-12-2015, 10:58 AM
Often the most productive work is done in select committees away from the glare ( or interest) of the media. I would be interested in opinions regarding Labours achievements which National opposed
1. GST :should National have supported it?
2. Diplomatic relations with the PRC : should National have supported it?
3. Health system. should National have supported it ?

Of course they should have supported GST etc. They were a weak party against the excellent 84 to 90 Labour party; or excellent until Lange ripped his own party apart destroying a courageous govt. that we should be very thankful for.
Your comment re select committees is spot on. Their work is far more constructive than the public display of nonsense which unfortunately many consider to be the way the country is run.

BlackPeter
29-12-2015, 11:19 AM
Often the most productive work is done in select committees away from the glare ( or interest) of the media. I would be interested in opinions regarding Labours achievements which National opposed
1. GST :should National have supported it?
2. Diplomatic relations with the PRC : should National have supported it?
3. Health system. should National have supported it ?

Look Sergant, all these "Labour achievements" you list lie so far back in the past, that I would assume that both the Labour politicians supporting them as well as the National politicians opposing are already for a long time retired and many already dead. How is this relevant for todays politics? Are you buying shares of a company, just because they used to have a great CEO or board 50 years ago?

Labour is a highly regressive party with its roots, ideas, achievements and future all firmly planted in the past. All most of them seem to be able to do is whine, nag and disestablish their next leader ... Grumpy old people. However - New Zealand needs a government which is looking in to the future. The Best is still to come ... and so far I don't see how Labour would pull that off.

Looking at your items:

Introduction of GST was in 1986 (29 years ago). In my view a good step - and it appears National is firmly embracing this move (they increased GST several times, always firmly opposed by Labour)

Diplomatic relations with PRC in 1972 (43 years ago). Again - in hindsight inevitable, and I think it was an economical advantage for NZ to be one of the frontrunners. On the other hand - how do Labour / Green feel about supporting for many years a government and system which couldn't care less about political freedom and human rights? Funny to see the same people who supported the diplomatic relations every time protesting when one of the Chinese politicians visits the country.

NZ Health system: Not sure, whether you really can put this on Labours achievements (too many changes by all parties over the last eighty years or so), but overall - it is not perfect, but certainly one of the better ones internationally (and still sort of affordable). When do you think that Labour implemented that? The base for our health system was established in 1938 - was Labour at that stage in power? If yes - what difference would this make to the political decisions we need to make over the next decade or so?

Labour used to be the "grand party" (and I definitely would acknowledge as well their achievements in terms of Labourers rights), than it turned into the "grand old party", and now it is just an old party. It lives in the past. It clearly had some achievements at its time - and fair enough to remember and celebrate them. However - past performance does not indicate future performance, and the time of the great Labour politicians seems to be over. Could we get an opposition party which is relevant, instead?

Sgt Pepper
29-12-2015, 12:22 PM
Look Sergant, all these "Labour achievements" you list lie so far back in the past, that I would assume that both the Labour politicians supporting them as well as the National politicians opposing are already for a long time retired and many already dead. How is this relevant for todays politics? Are you buying shares of a company, just because they used to have a great CEO or board 50 years ago?

Labour is a highly regressive party with its roots, ideas, achievements and future all firmly planted in the past. All most of them seem to be able to do is whine, nag and disestablish their next leader ... Grumpy old people. However - New Zealand needs a government which is looking in to the future. The Best is still to come ... and so far I don't see how Labour would pull that off.

Looking at your items:

Introduction of GST was in 1986 (29 years ago). In my view a good step - and it appears National is firmly embracing this move (they increased GST several times, always firmly opposed by Labour)

Diplomatic relations with PRC in 1972 (43 years ago). Again - in hindsight inevitable, and I think it was an economical advantage for NZ to be one of the frontrunners. On the other hand - how do Labour / Green feel about supporting for many years a government and system which couldn't care less about political freedom and human rights? Funny to see the same people who supported the diplomatic relations every time protesting when one of the Chinese politicians visits the country.

NZ Health system: Not sure, whether you really can put this on Labours achievements (too many changes by all parties over the last eighty years or so), but overall - it is not perfect, but certainly one of the better ones internationally (and still sort of affordable). When do you think that Labour implemented that? The base for our health system was established in 1938 - was Labour at that stage in power? If yes - what difference would this make to the political decisions we need to make over the next decade or so?

Labour used to be the "grand party" (and I definitely would acknowledge as well their achievements in terms of Labourers rights), than it turned into the "grand old party", and now it is just an old party. It lives in the past. It clearly had some achievements at its time - and fair enough to remember and celebrate them. However - past performance does not indicate future performance, and the time of the great Labour politicians seems to be over. Could we get an opposition party which is relevant, instead?

First , yes Labour was in power in 1938 when the health system was established. My point listing the achievements of past Labour administrations is that is the nature of the party. National in contrast is not, (usually) an activist government.

Here is a challenge.
List, in your opinion, 5 of the most important changes that have been initiated and enacted by a National administration, currently or historically

fungus pudding
29-12-2015, 12:25 PM
Fist , yes Labour was in power in 1938 when the health system was established. My point listing the achievements of past Labour administrations is that I the nature of the party. National in contrast is not, (usually) an activist government.

Here is a challenge.
List, in your opinion, 5 of the most important changes that have been initiated and enacted by a National administration, currently or historically

National's greatest achievement to date has been keeping the Labour party away from the cheque book whenever the sillier side of the party gets too strong. That surely is doing Allah's work.

Sgt Pepper
29-12-2015, 12:44 PM
National's greatest achievement to date has been keeping the Labour party away from the cheque book whenever the sillier side of the party gets too strong. That surely is doing Allah's work.

Precisely
Nationals raison d'etre is
1.stay in power- keep Labour out.

The perplexing thing though is why National has not been spending its political capital in things that are, or were dear to their ( and substantial donors)r hearts e.g. Privatising ACC/ selling Kiwibank

BlackPeter
29-12-2015, 12:55 PM
First , yes Labour was in power in 1938 when the health system was established. My point listing the achievements of past Labour administrations is that is the nature of the party. National in contrast is not, (usually) an activist government.

Here is a challenge.
List, in your opinion, 5 of the most important changes that have been initiated and enacted by a National administration, currently or historically

OK - looks like you spent much more time in NZ than I did, so this makes it easier for you to list historic Labour achievements. On the other hand - it makes it easier for me to list recent National achievements - i.e. I don't need to open the tombs to find something positive.

(1) NZ under the current National government managed to convince many of the people who voted with their feet under the last Labour government to come back to NZ. Sure - this is as well a reflection on bad economical performance in Australia, but it is in my view a clear National achievement that NZ is performing currently better than Australia! National promised in 2009 to turn the tide of emigrants to Australia - and they did!

(2) NZ is one of the best places to do business and to live in the world (feel free to pick your own league table). three terms of a good and business friendly government clearly supported this trend.

(3) The last Labour government basically bankrupted some of its previous achievements. ACC as well as our health system have been expensive and inefficient. National turned the tide here as well - our health system performs now better for lesser money (well - per surgery) and ACC is again financially sound.

(4) National (well - actually ACT) have been the first government in decades working on breaking a politically biassed and procrastinated education system which was producing less and less quality education. Sure - it is difficult given that the major stakeholder (unions) do not care about children or teachers but only about furthering their own power, and there is still plenty of work to do. Still - I expect charter schools to succeed (another good reason why we need a handful more of National terms) and to greatly benefit our education system. Diversity is good - not just for shareholders!

(5) Ever checked what Labour did for the so called natives (even if they just arrived a bit earlier than the pakeha)? Exactly - nothing. Just look at National in comparison - the latest government managed to settle most of the (reasonable) Maori claims (incl seabed and foreshore) and gave them a free-er hand to look after themselves.

(6) I listed already 5 achievements ... but we shouldn't forget that NZ is after the GFC still one of the least indebted countries in the world. Isn't this an amazing achievement by a National government - and this despite Christchurch Earthquake and a bunch of whining lefties fighting them every step on the way to balance their books ...

Daytr
30-12-2015, 08:11 AM
I find it strange that Key reverted to Knighthoods & Dames but wants to change the flag. If NZ wants its own identity sticking with the NZ honor system Labour introduced would have been a start.

Sgt Pepper
30-12-2015, 08:38 AM
I find it strange that Key reverted to Knighthoods & Dames but wants to change the flag. If NZ wants its own identity sticking with the NZ honor system Labour introduced would have been a start.
Exactly Daytr

I have pondered this one often. It was never signalled by National prior to the 2008 election that they( meaning John Key) would reintroduce Knighthoods. If I recall correctly it was also reintroduced fairly quickly after National being elected.
There are several theories as to why it was such a priority and why they didn't talk about it prior to and during the 2008 campaign.

1.quid pro quo

Wealthy National donors pressured National on reintroducing knighthoods as they aspired to have one

2. John Key planning for his future
John Key was already contemplating and planning post political life and a knighthood for himself was on his list

3. Nostalgia
Possibly, but John Key said in 2003 that he was " a little bit republican". So mixed messages there. He has certainly changed his tune, staying at Balmoral etc. NEVER underestimate the shallowness of this man. He has much in common with Marx, Groucho Marx that is.. " I've got principles, and if you don't like them, well i've got others

777
30-12-2015, 08:54 AM
It was signalled along with returning to use of the Privy Council.

All part of their election promises.

And rightly so. Helen and her mates were doing everything to end any links with Britain. The above and the removal of Royal from anywhere it was being used. e.g. NZAF instead of RNZAF.

Sgt Pepper
30-12-2015, 09:08 AM
It was signalled along with returning to use of the Privy Council.

All part of their election promises.

And rightly so. Helen and her mates were doing everything to end any links with Britain. The above and the removal of Royal from anywhere it was being used. e.g. NZAF instead of RNZAF.

Restoring Knighthoods could have been a job creation strategy from the sharp mind of John Key, with knights we could also have blacksmiths and court jesters. John would be the Knight in shining armour although personally I think he would be better suited to be the village idiot

Daytr
30-12-2015, 10:41 AM
Why rightly so? Do you think the queen should be our head of state?
Its archaic to think a person is born to a position of leadership such as a monarchy.
The Privy Council is an unfortunate necessity in my view, mainly due to the number of serious convictions that have been flawed if not corrupt in the last few decades and having a court outside of NZ to appeal to has proven necessary.
I wish that wasn't the case, but I think recent history proves that it is.



It was signalled along with returning to use of the Privy Council.

All part of their election promises.

And rightly so. Helen and her mates were doing everything to end any links with Britain. The above and the removal of Royal from anywhere it was being used. e.g. NZAF instead of RNZAF.

artemis
30-12-2015, 10:48 AM
............. Lets look at he list of things National opposed when a Labour government was in power
............. 4. They opposed the establishment of a Superannuation system modelled on that of Singapore.(much to our collective cost since) ....

Remember though the 1997 referendum initiated by Mr Peters. 92% of voters opposed a scheme along the lines of Kiwisaver. So perhaps the time for change was still to come.

westerly
30-12-2015, 12:07 PM
Re Black Peters post 9192

(1) Most went to Australia for high wages and lifestyle reasons, coming home because Australia dependent on the mining boom is now in trouble economically. Lesson for NZ with our our dependenceon dairy?
(2) Dubious honour being ranked high in the easiest to do business lists. Finance company collapses, probably the best indicator of a lack of regulation and surveillance along with Pike River.
(3) ACC went from broke to dropping charges in an remarkably short time. Funny that, along with a hard nosed approach to what was an accident. As for the health system, you need health insurance to have any chance of obtaining basic surgery. Hence the establishment of charity hospitals.
(4)http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11525848
Yeah right.
(5) Labour established the Waitangi Tribunal in 1977, and extended it's powers to look back past 1977 in 1985. National has just tagged along.
(6) Best to ignore this. Could be classed as a whiner. As has been said by Sgt. P the role of the opposition is to oppose.

It would not matter who was the Labour leader she as in Julia Gillard in Australia, or the previous and current Labour leaders in NZ have found out, they will be subject to an unrelenting attack on any perceived or imagined weakness from all sections of the media. John Key has only been mildly chided for personal foibles like pulling pony tails.
For Labour to become more relevant a return to people first policies rather than trying to be a centre party must occur. A start would be the re-establishment of State Advances for low cost first home loans and the MOW to develop lower cost subdivisions.

westerly

777
30-12-2015, 06:48 PM
Why rightly so? Do you think the queen should be our head of state?
Its archaic to think a person is born to a position of leadership such as a monarchy.
The Privy Council is an unfortunate necessity in my view, mainly due to the number of serious convictions that have been flawed if not corrupt in the last few decades and having a court outside of NZ to appeal to has proven necessary.
I wish that wasn't the case, but I think recent history proves that it is.

In short yes to your question.

When/if we become a Republic then that will change and the flag at the same time.

Major von Tempsky
05-01-2016, 09:18 AM
I think people need to think further back into history. The old Anglo-Saxon kings did not necessarily accede by right of birth, the then Parliament had the determining say - as you would expect after disasters like Ethelred the Unready and Prince Charles (oops, wash your mouth out Major!).

Parliament, which has shown an extreme reluctance to become involved, needs to step up and take it's rightful responsibility. Prince Charles has shown over a lifetime of tree-hugging wrongheadedness he is unfit for the job. Let's just take one issue, the leak of letters showing him pressuring Tony Blair to adopt particular political decisions and paths and even more incredibly, Tony Blair acceding to this pressure! Anyone who does this shows that he doesn't understand what a constitutional monarchy is. Parliament should choose amongst some better qualified candidates, Prince William is the obvious one and well favoured by political polls over Charles. There are some others, e.g. Prince Edward, Prince Harry...

I am glad to see The Privy Council coming back into favour. While the links amongst the old boys establishment of NZ Judges are very strong, the links between this establishment and the British one have frayed and disintegrated. Moreover we get the Privy Council services very cheaply and I for one would be pleased to see the Privy Council without any NZ axes to grind bring a dispassionate view to bear on NZ problems.

craic
05-01-2016, 09:27 AM
I hate to say this but you are going to get Charles, warts and all. Though some sentimentalists hate Camilla as a marriage breaker and all the rest, She has proved, by her ability to keep her mouth shut among other things, That she probably would have made a good queen.

BlackPeter
05-01-2016, 10:32 AM
I am glad to see The Privy Council coming back into favour. While the links amongst the old boys establishment of NZ Judges are very strong, the links between this establishment and the British one have frayed and disintegrated. Moreover we get the Privy Council services very cheaply and I for one would be pleased to see the Privy Council without any NZ axes to grind bring a dispassionate view to bear on NZ problems.

I agree that it would be desirable to get the Privy Council back as highest court of appeal. Our NZ justice system has proven often enough that they are not up to the task - having some more of the old boys (and girls) in the so called "Supreme Court" won't help to right the wrongs our day to day justice creates. A crow doesn't pick out another crow's eyes ... and NZ is too small to be able to provide "Supreme" judges who could independently assess the verdicts decided by other senior judges. They know each other, play golf in the same clubs and have their children growing up together. They obviously prefer to scratch each others backs instead of scrutinizing each others verdicts.

However - it was our latest Labour government which decided in its wisdom to remove for New Zealanders access to the Privy Council. Only "old" cases (prior to 2004) are still allowed to use this independant court in London. The political Left under aunt Helen denied New Zealanders access to this so crucial watchdog of our justice system.

We can only hope that a centre / right government is at some stage able and willing to right this wrong ... and yes, I agree, this would have been more important than the change of the flag debate (who really cares) or the reintroduction of Dames and Sirs (actually - I think a nice touch, but clearly not as important than access to justice if you need it).

Sgt Pepper
05-01-2016, 10:33 AM
I think people need to think further back into history. The old Anglo-Saxon kings did not necessarily accede by right of birth, the then Parliament had the determining say - as you would expect after disasters like Ethelred the Unready and Prince Charles (oops, wash your mouth out Major!).

Parliament, which has shown an extreme reluctance to become involved, needs to step up and take it's rightful responsibility. Prince Charles has shown over a lifetime of tree-hugging wrongheadedness he is unfit for the job. Let's just take one issue, the leak of letters showing him pressuring Tony Blair to adopt particular political decisions and paths and even more incredibly, Tony Blair acceding to this pressure! Anyone who does this shows that he doesn't understand what a constitutional monarchy is. Parliament should choose amongst some better qualified candidates, Prince William is the obvious one and well favoured by political polls over Charles. There are some others, e.g. Prince Edward, Prince Harry...

I am glad to see The Privy Council coming back into favour. While the links amongst the old boys establishment of NZ Judges are very strong, the links between this establishment and the British one have frayed and disintegrated. Moreover we get the Privy Council services very cheaply and I for one would be pleased to see the Privy Council without any NZ axes to grind bring a dispassionate view to bear on NZ problems.

I usually try and keep up to date with the News but have not seen this development regarding the Privy Council. Are you sure the government is planning to restore the Judicial Committee of Privy Council as the final court of appeal?

Daytr
08-01-2016, 08:01 PM
Trump leading the polls for the Republican nomination in the US must be a major embarrassment for the right of politics.
This guy would be more damaging than G W Bush!
I wonder if Key would buddy up to Trump on the golf course like he has Obama?

craic
09-01-2016, 07:46 AM
I'll give you a choice for right and left to lead the world. Donald Trump on the right and a short, fat North Korean Dictator on the left. One has heaps of money and popular support amongst people who are free to express an opinion. The other has a terrified nation of A@#$e lickers and some nuclear capacity. You may not like Donald Trump but at least the Americans have the freedom not to vote for him. And just an aside - sooner rather than later, some ordinary individual or group will use drone technology to take out one or the other of them or some other prominent figure from miles away. I propose to carry a shotgun from now on and any drone that enters my property airspace will be disabled.

Daytr
10-01-2016, 08:22 PM
That's sort of my point Craic, Trump is polling well & as you say they have a choice.
In North Korea they don't.
What's that say about the US right wing voter ?

craic
10-01-2016, 09:24 PM
It says that all Americans have freedom of choice - as we do. All those people who disagree with your point of view Daytr are free people and all your rubbish about how you are right and they are wrong will not change anything.

Daytr
10-01-2016, 09:31 PM
No need to get narky Craic.
So you would vote for Trump if you had the choice ?

elZorro
10-01-2016, 10:40 PM
A NZ guy I know, who had lived in midwest USA for a while, told me that there are some questions you don't put to many of these people -they're very nice and sociable otherwise, he said - because you really don't want to hear the answers.
I think Trump is playing a tune to these people, it's a big voting base.

Meanwhile I'm waiting for the right-wing iPredict to fold up, after refusing to toe the line over ensuring each punter only has one account and plays by the clear rules.

W69, yes I'm aghast that Lynton Crosby has received some kind of award. How many millions of people have been trampled on, so one guy can be applauded in public by his big-business mates?

elZorro
10-01-2016, 10:40 PM
A NZ guy I know, who had lived in midwest USA for a while, told me that there are some questions you don't put to many of these people -they're very nice and sociable otherwise, he said - because you really don't want to hear the answers.
I think Trump is playing a tune to these people, it's a big voting base.

Meanwhile I'm waiting for the right-wing iPredict to fold up, after refusing to toe the line over ensuring each punter only has one account and plays by the clear rules.

W69, yes I'm aghast that Lynton Crosby has received some kind of award. How many millions of people have been trampled on, so one guy can be applauded in public by his big-business mates?

Daytr
11-01-2016, 06:57 AM
Welcome back EZ!
I hoping there are enough people in the US to see how scary Trump would be with a military & nukes behind him that if he won the Republican nomination that he then loses to Clinton. I'm not a massive fan of Hilary, but as an alternative to Trump.... Any day of the week!

winner69
11-01-2016, 07:36 AM
Trump popular apparently because of a rising revolt against political correctness. Might be the beginning of the end of PC in politics, the populus now feel empowered to say what they think

Great article in Wall St Journal about this if you can access.


As one pundit sails why should America worry about voting in a clown when they had series of bozos of late.

craic
11-01-2016, 08:02 AM
Yes I would vote for Trump. Because he is forcing his nation to realise that the violent murder, rape and genocide that we read about daily is the product of religion and one religion in particular and the powerful nations in that region are failing to deal with the problem. He is more likely to stick I to the Short Fat North Korean than any of his opponents. The current policy of "let's not mention Muslim because there are some very nice Muslims about" hasn't worked so far and many of the "nice" sects of that religion are not too far behind isis in their attitudes and practices.

BlackPeter
11-01-2016, 09:03 AM
Yes I would vote for Trump. Because he is forcing his nation to realise that the violent murder, rape and genocide that we read about daily is the product of religion and one religion in particular and the powerful nations in that region are failing to deal with the problem. He is more likely to stick I to the Short Fat North Korean than any of his opponents. The current policy of "let's not mention Muslim because there are some very nice Muslims about" hasn't worked so far and many of the "nice" sects of that religion are not too far behind isis in their attitudes and practices.

Oh dear ... while we do agree on the negative influence of religions in general do I feel that you are a bit hard on Christianity ("one religion in particular"). While millions of innocent people had to die in the name of its so called "god" and while the monotheistic religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam are probably the only ones openly celebrating and calling for genocide in their holy books, there are as well humans using some other excuse than being Christian in order to kill each other.

I know it is difficult to imagine if you listen to people like Trump talking, but there are as well some nice Christian people around.

westerly
11-01-2016, 09:12 AM
It says that all Americans have freedom of choice - as we do. All those people who disagree with your point of view Daytr are free people and all your rubbish about how you are right and they are wrong will not change anything.

Perhaps you should go away and hide under a stone Daytr. While it is ok for craic to offer his, at times, eccentric views he does not believe you should also have that freedom.

westerly

craic
11-01-2016, 09:42 AM
On the contrary. I am more than happy with the freedom Daytr has to express his opinions. The more he does so, the more likely people are to vote on my side of the wall, the Right side, in every way. Look at the more recent elections and the public opinion polls. Maybe we are about to see a restrengthening of the term , "to be Trumped" as more and more people understand the "Key" to success. For me the greatest problems at this moment are a faulty chainsaw, misty rain and no gallops meeting until Wednesday.

westerly
11-01-2016, 10:52 AM
Key and Trump an interesting combination. As for Trump ? http://hollowverse.com/donald-trump/

westerly

Snapper
11-01-2016, 11:37 AM
Key and Trump an interesting combination. As for Trump ? http://hollowverse.com/donald-trump/

westerly

Can't see President Trump wanting to play golf with John Key any time soon. The Republican party would view the current National government as only just to the right of Karl Marx.

Daytr
12-01-2016, 06:33 AM
I saw a statistic the other day that in the US you are more likely by 58 fold to be killed by a policeman in the US than a terrorist.
The US has a far bigger issue with their own gun crime than religious fanatics. Well actually many of the NRA are religious fanatics but are just the Christian right, so apparently when a white man goes on a shooting spree in a shopping mall, he's a lone gunman. If its a Muslim they are a terrorist.
Obama at least is trying to do something about the gun problem. Trump & the Republicans are advocates of for the gun lobby.

Snapper
12-01-2016, 10:28 AM
I saw a statistic the other day that in the US you are more likely by 58 fold to be killed by a policeman in the US than a terrorist.
The US has a far bigger issue with their own gun crime than religious fanatics. Well actually many of the NRA are religious fanatics but are just the Christian right, so apparently when a white man goes on a shooting spree in a shopping mall, he's a lone gunman. If its a Muslim they are a terrorist.
Obama at least is trying to do something about the gun problem. Trump & the Republicans are advocates of for the gun lobby.

Off topic, I know, but if you want to see an Aussies comic's take on gun laws in the US, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

Total crack up!

Daytr
12-01-2016, 05:32 PM
Yeah I had seen it and agree it was great. I think he had a few rednecks squirming in their seats! LOL

Daytr
14-01-2016, 06:09 AM
Obama, in his state of the union address said something along the lines of. The TPP will stop China dictating terms in the Pacific & we (the US) will.
I don't feel that China is dictating terms. They are a very important trade partner we would be silly to upset for the sake of appeasing the US. I also don't want the US dictating terms. They have done enough of that in the past, particularly when it comes to going to war.
Why would we sign this agreement into law before the US has?
Why would we sign it at all.
Its not in our best interest, but the interests of corporate America.

craic
14-01-2016, 08:18 AM
Anything at all Daytr, eh? - As long as it's anything anti-American.

Major von Tempsky
14-01-2016, 09:50 AM
How about China dictating terms in the South China Sea and creating artificial islands there with air and naval bases and dictating terms to the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, in areas that are close to the countries concerned and thousands of miles from China? Is that Ok because it's not done by the USA?

Daytr
14-01-2016, 07:27 PM
Craic, I'm not anti American I have visited the States on many occasions & immensely enjoyed my time there.
However that doesn't mean I like everything they do & since WWII the US has probably as much innocent blood on their hands as any nation if not more.
And the TPPA is just an extension of corporate America into our government services.

MVT do you just make this stuff up? How does China dictate terms to these countries?
China is probably now the number 2 power in the world and before long will probably he able to out muscle the US.
No doubt they have substantial influence.

In particular how does China dictate terms to the Philippines ? Particularly as the Philippines has US military bases as has Japan.
That may answer your question re China building islands in the Pacific, it maybe because they are surrounded by US bases, including having Taiwan with US military presence.

craic
15-01-2016, 06:37 AM
Daytr, if you can look in a mirror and say you are not anti-American then you either have a magic mirror or stuffed eyesight. I have been back over a few pages of your post and it is clear that you use every opportunity to attack anything American with snide comments and all the manufactured rubbish of the green left. A few trips to America to see the parts or aspects that you like you "like" is of no consequence. Had it not been for the Americans, you probably wouldn't be here now or speaking English.

Major von Tempsky
15-01-2016, 07:54 AM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11574206

Make that Weepu, Messam, Daytr, EZ and Associates....

westerly
15-01-2016, 08:59 AM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11574206

Make that Weepu, Messam, Daytr, EZ and Associates....

Is there such a person? Economics has been described as pseudo-science.

westerly

elZorro
15-01-2016, 08:48 PM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11574206

Make that Weepu, Messam, Daytr, EZ and Associates....

Actually, Emmerson has skewered John Key repeatedly and accurately, so he's probably making the point that some rugby players, who are not normally political animals, are concerned that the TPPA is not in NZ's best interests. Has it occurred to you, MVT, that many of our political cartoonists, like Murdoch, are usually mocking the National Govt?

Daytr
15-01-2016, 10:01 PM
As I used to critique and edit bank economists publications before being released to the public for a major bank, I think I am reasonably qualified to comment on such things MVT.

Daytr
15-01-2016, 10:15 PM
Craig, you don't know me, so don't pretend to.
Yes the Yanks came to the rescue in WWII albeit very late and yes good on them.
I examine all policy and all nations. I'm highly critical of many countries but I will also give them credit where its due.
China gets blamed for everything including global economic woes we are currently seeing.
Its a joke. I don't buy into propaganda. If you want to you that's up to you.
China certainly has issues particularly in the re of human rights, but there are plenty of others.
Vietnam, Korea, Iraq are all US disasters since WWII. The US has plenty of blood on their hands.
In saying that Obama generally has tried to reign in their military campaigns such as Iraq & I commend him for it.
So while I'm not a fan of their foreign policy, it doesn't make me anti American.
Perhaps I don't see the world as black & white as you.
You do realize the lefties are in government in the US don't you?
So are you saying I'm criticizing the left? ;-)



Daytr, if you can look in a mirror and say you are not anti-American then you either have a magic mirror or stuffed eyesight. I have been back over a few pages of your post and it is clear that you use every opportunity to attack anything American with snide comments and all the manufactured rubbish of the green left. A few trips to America to see the parts or aspects that you like you "like" is of no consequence. Had it not been for the Americans, you probably wouldn't be here now or speaking English.

craic
16-01-2016, 08:05 AM
Daytr, Hitler was a leftie. Your particular bias is a very British anti American form - it was common even when I was in the British Army all those decades ago. It has little to do with politics and more to do with the success of a nation that biffed the British years ago. I am happy to see the world in black and white and get on with the business of deciding which side I am on. I am a successful man in that I started with nothing and my children and grandchildren are all successful and today I can sit on the grass under a tree at a winery and drink wine and listen to music and wonder how my horses are doing at Tauranga. My family includes English, Irish, American, Canadian and Russians, not forgetting New Zealanders.

Major von Tempsky
16-01-2016, 10:24 AM
Actually, Emmerson has skewered John Key repeatedly and accurately, so he's probably making the point that some rugby players, who are not normally political animals, are concerned that the TPPA is not in NZ's best interests. Has it occurred to you, MVT, that many of our political cartoonists, like Murdoch, are usually mocking the National Govt?


EZ, has it occurred to you that in a democracy, most cartoonists spend most of their time lampooning the government. If Labour was in, Murdoch et al would be mocking the Labour Government.
Cartoonists are good for a laugh.

westerly
16-01-2016, 11:02 AM
Daytr, Hitler was a leftie. Your particular bias is a very British anti American form - it was common even when I was in the British Army all those decades ago. It has little to do with politics and more to do with the success of a nation that biffed the British years ago. I am happy to see the world in black and white and get on with the business of deciding which side I am on. I am a successful man in that I started with nothing and my children and grandchildren are all successful and today I can sit on the grass under a tree at a winery and drink wine and listen to music and wonder how my horses are doing at Tauranga. My family includes English, Irish, American, Canadian and Russians, not forgetting New Zealanders.
Craic, you seem to have made up which side you are on. How ever Hitler was not a lefty -he was a dictator who despised marxism. The US has supported many dictators in it's war on communism over the years. You confuse dictators with the left. Dictators seem to be more right than left because the general population suffer whereas an elite prosper to keep the Dictator in power.
Most of the US excursions into the affairs of other countries seem to be more about their business interests.
I do not see things in black and white they never are. The fact I am annoyed at the media's adoption of
US words like rookie and cookie does not mean I hate the US. I wonder about the Irish though :)

westerly

elZorro
16-01-2016, 01:23 PM
EZ, has it occurred to you that in a democracy, most cartoonists spend most of their time lampooning the government. If Labour was in, Murdoch et al would be mocking the Labour Government.
Cartoonists are good for a laugh.

MVT, if you care to take the time to look over many previous cartoons from Murdoch and Emmerson et al, you'll see they overwhelmingly lampoon the National Govt. And why? - because to a thinking person they make a very easy target. National is staying in power with money, smoke and mirrors, but it's the money that pays for the smoke and mirrors.

Please give me a list of all their good (for most of NZ) policy steps since 2008, it'll be a short list.

777
16-01-2016, 02:20 PM
Please give me a list of all their good (for most of NZ) policy steps since 2008, it'll be a short list.

They got rid of Labour. What more do you want.

fungus pudding
16-01-2016, 03:23 PM
They got rid of Labour. What more do you want.

You must understand 777 that you are dealing with an individual who spends every waking moment (and probably also in his/her nightmares) concerned about National and John Key and their advertising agency. Not content to worry himself/herself to death eZ spends a considerable amount of time on this forum trying to convince others that we're on a treacherous road to destruction unless Labour takes over the reins. He/she overlooks the fact that we are one of the most successful countries and economies in the world. And also overlooks the fact that our P.M. is the most popular leader NZ has ever had, while trying to convince us that Goff, Shearer, and Cunliffe had, and now the current temporary leader, Little, in combination with the Greens, have the answers.

elZorro
16-01-2016, 05:51 PM
You must understand 777 that you are dealing with an individual who spends every waking moment (and probably also in his/her nightmares) concerned about National and John Key and their advertising agency. Not content to worry himself/herself to death eZ spends a considerable amount of time on this forum trying to convince others that we're on a treacherous road to destruction unless Labour takes over the reins. He/she overlooks the fact that we are one of the most successful countries and economies in the world. And also overlooks the fact that our P.M. is the most popular leader NZ has ever had, while trying to convince us that Goff, Shearer, and Cunliffe had, and now the current temporary leader, Little, in combination with the Greens, have the answers.

Correct in most aspects, FP. Looking forward to more political arguments in 2016. I was talking to a small but long-established retailer today, he's selling off stock and downsizing to a smaller part of the same shop. He reckoned the building owner would have to find another way to fund his retirement. Retailing is tough, slim margins. National haven't helped SMEs much, but even this guy thought National was the lesser of two evils. He was alert enough to say that National used smoke and mirrors, hence my comment.

You were having a go at Andrew Little. At least Labour will be able to use his face in the 2017 campaign. If John Key's image goes up on the National hoardings, myself and hundreds of others will be adding hammers, pointy noses and ponytails to them. Fair warning.

craic
16-01-2016, 06:43 PM
I love it! Spent the day soaking up wine and music in the shade of a walnut tree at a local winery while my horses took it easy on the track and didn't bother too much about winning. Switched on my email to find a message from my brokers. My shares, which were on the block, went up, yesterday, 9cps to my sell price and sold and paid for all my other excesses, several times over. The real profit comes next week when they bottom out and I buy them back. An text from a friend, just as we opening another bottle of Merlot under the tree to say that her cruise ship was just steaming up the coast past Hawkes Bay, en- rout to Tauranga. And all the left can do is plan to deface election posters.

fungus pudding
16-01-2016, 07:01 PM
Correct in most aspects, FP. Looking forward to more political arguments in 2016. I was talking to a small but long-established retailer today, he's selling off stock and downsizing to a smaller part of the same shop. He reckoned the building owner would have to find another way to fund his retirement. Retailing is tough, slim margins. National haven't helped SMEs much, but even this guy thought National was the lesser of two evils. He was alert enough to say that National used smoke and mirrors, hence my comment.

You were having a go at Andrew Little. At least Labour will be able to use his face in the 2017 campaign. If John Key's image goes up on the National hoardings, myself and hundreds of others will be adding hammers, pointy noses and ponytails to them. Fair warning.

Back to normal -grammar a bit astray in that 2cnd last sentence eZ.

elZorro
16-01-2016, 07:17 PM
Back to normal -grammar a bit astray in that 2cnd last sentence eZ.

Me, myself and I, FP? I assume the latter would have been more correct. I will try to do better. You didn't correct the right-wing Craic, who is not sure how to spell en route.

Craic, you're in the top percentile of people in NZ as far as wealth goes, by the sound of it. Does that mean you can stay smug and self-assured while the many working poor and unemployed are at the mercy of National government policies? For them, this is not an amusement.

These are the people, who when asked about their voting preferences, state "Not National". Luckily for National, their votes are often not exercised, or they are split amongst many other left-wing parties which don't link up carefully enough. Maybe Labour will sort that out this time around.

Daytr
16-01-2016, 08:29 PM
Hitler was a leftie !!! LOL God sakes man get some education! Quite ridiculous.
Glad to hear you & your family has done well, no matter how self congratulating your post is.
One of your successful family apparently doesn't work for a bank. Ha ha.

Extremes of both right and left are dangerous & scary. That's some of the reason why I'm a centralist.
Trump I would suggest is bordering on being extreme right.
Obama & Clinton are far closer to the centre.

I also like the way you think you know more about me than I do & yet you don't know who I am & we have never met!
Keep up the fiction though, its quite amusing.



Daytr, Hitler was a leftie. Your particular bias is a very British anti American form - it was common even when I was in the British Army all those decades ago. It has little to do with politics and more to do with the success of a nation that biffed the British years ago. I am happy to see the world in black and white and get on with the business of deciding which side I am on. I am a successful man in that I started with nothing and my children and grandchildren are all successful and today I can sit on the grass under a tree at a winery and drink wine and listen to music and wonder how my horses are doing at Tauranga. My family includes English, Irish, American, Canadian and Russians, not forgetting New Zealanders.

craic
16-01-2016, 09:18 PM
The National Socialist German Workers Party hardly needs an education as high as yours to recognise as left. And its not the first left wing party to set about reshaping the world.

Daytr
16-01-2016, 09:20 PM
Re Fonterra I don't think I explained myself clearly.
My point is they are the face of an industry that is already under fire due to the emissions created by cow flatulence.
I would think at least as a PR exercise they would look to reduce emissions as much as possible in other areas.
In the scheme of things their coal consumption is small having four dairy factories powered by coal I think. (Huntley power station is not part of it as this is jot owned by Fonterra, although they may source power from its generation)
In this day and age I don't think there is any excuse for a company in NZ to choose coal over other power sources that are readily available.
Two of these plants are in the South Island I believe, where most of our hydro is generated!

Daytr
16-01-2016, 09:29 PM
Oh dear Craic. So you read a name that sounds like it might be left wing, so it must be.
Answer me this.
Was a Hitler a fascist?
Is a fascist left or right wing?
Why did Hitler want to stamp out communism, an extreme of the left?
Why also did Hitler threaten to resign from his the party in the early 1920s when some of the leadership wanted to merge with the socialist party? A very much left wing party.

As you are no doubt aware the political spectrum is circular and the extremes of left & right almost overlap, so perhaps this is causing some confusion. And perhaps it did Hitler as well as he was obviously a pretty confused & deranged individual.

Now if you want to pick on some horrific lefties, there are plenty to choose from such as Stalin, Mao etc.
You don't need to create them. ;-)

Just because I am left of you, it doesn't mean I'm a lefty.
I believe in free capital markets for instance, well as long as they are regulated to ensure they are fair markets.

Keep believing that I'm this extreme lefty if It makes you feel better, but perhaps that's just the socialist coming out in me wanting everyone to enjoy life. ;-)



The National Socialist German Workers Party hardly needs an education as high as yours to recognise as left. And its not the first left wing party to set about reshaping the world.

fungus pudding
16-01-2016, 10:01 PM
Me, myself and I, FP? I assume the latter would have been more correct. I will try to do better. You didn't correct the right-wing Craic, who is not sure how to spell [I]en route.



I ..... etc... will be adding hammers. Not myself or me will be .....

And correct doesn't come in degrees. It's either correct or it's not.
Don't worry about Craic. Not everybody gets singled out to receive the benefit of a Fungus education. Generally it is reserved for those who are sure to insist they have had a wonderful education in our pathetic state school system.

craic
17-01-2016, 12:32 PM
Daytr, "I believe in free capital markets, for instance, as long as they are regulated" is exactly akin to some of your comrades who say that they believe in competitive sports in schools as long as there are no losers.

Daytr
17-01-2016, 12:59 PM
No its not at all & your response reflects your lack of understanding.


Daytr, "I believe in free capital markets, for instance, as long as they are regulated" is exactly akin to some of your comrades who say that they believe in competitive sports in schools as long as there are no losers.

Daytr
17-01-2016, 01:00 PM
By the way Craic, I'm still waiting for your response to my questions re Hitler or do you still subscribe to the view he was a leftie? Haha.

Major von Tempsky
17-01-2016, 02:18 PM
Pretty obvious to anyone who has looked at history.

He was a National Socialist. He believed and worked on a command economy, he was anti-democratic, he appealed to the German working classes, he used propaganda, he was anti-Christian and like Stalin he ran pogroms against the Jews.

He ticked all the boxes for being a leftie.

Daytr
17-01-2016, 03:37 PM
Gawd there are two of them who want to rewrite history.
So you are saying the extreme right wing aren't capable of such things?
So are fascists left or right wing in your book?

I made a promise to be kinder in my retorts & less acidic, but when I see posts such as this its tempting to call it what it is...

Can some of even the righties on this thread help educate these two.
They really are embarrassing your cause.

Their blindness to oppose anyway I say is sending them into the realms of delusion.
Whoops there I go, told you it was tempting.