If National wins ...

[elZorro]

Now I dare not say if I was educated at secondary level in a state school, because FP would harangue me about it. I think we're starting to get the picture on the right-wingers who post consistently here: you all outright own multiple properties I would guess, or are significant landowners, and so the status quo suits you all just fine.

I am comfortably off too, all things considered, but I'd like to see a more equitable country, and I'm not keen on walking over others to get higher up the ladder. I'll work to get there, and if I can, I'll employ others on good pay, so they can get ahead as well, and support their families.

[westerly]

Pretty obvious to anyone who has looked at history.

He was a National Socialist. He believed and worked on a command economy, he was anti-democratic, he appealed to the German working classes, he used propaganda, he was anti-Christian and like Stalin he ran pogroms against the Jews.

He ticked all the boxes for being a leftie.

Is "National Socialist" a contradiction in terms or is JK going soft?:)

westerly

[Major von Tempsky]

He was a socialist and a nationalist, same as Mao Tse Dong.

There is very little between the extreme left and the extreme right in practice. Perhaps the extreme right is more honest, Stalin carried out pogroms against the Jews and the Kulaks and lots of other minorities while his propaganda machine and Constitution said everyone was equal.

[airedale]

If National wins? or will they play right in to Winston' hands by tinkering with and downgrading the over 65's Gold Card. There are moves to transfer the costs to the regional governments and force users to buy a local bus pass thus destroying the card's countrywide benefits.

[craic]

The Gold Card is as useless as tits on a bull - no buses that I can use. Other discounts? My Farmlands card gets me a 10% discount at Mitre ten Mega on all but timber. RSA card works wonders in some places and so it goes. If I didn't have all the cards I have, I could fit Winston in my wallet. Only consolation is that no Isis bullet could penetrate that lot. And is there anyone out there who really believes that they get something for nothing with discount cards? When I was a child cigarette cards were all the rage. For a few thousand cards you could gets pots and pans and irons and all sorts of gadgets. In a household of four regular smokers, I never saw a single reward. Just been to Adelaide where the really is a bus service. A huge ring route going both ways that is free and a bus-pass card that can be loaded all over the place and gives special low fares off peak - go-anywhere for $1.90 during the day. Much better than the free service in other Australian cities I have visited. Will re-test the Melbourne system later in the year.

[BlackPeter]

If National wins? or will they play right in to Winston' hands by tinkering with and downgrading the over 65's Gold Card. There are moves to transfer the costs to the regional governments and force users to buy a local bus pass thus destroying the card's countrywide benefits.

The gold card was and is a clear bribe, buying votes for Winston mainly from city folks. Nobody else can use this thing, but everybody pays for it. Thanks Winston for bribing other people with my tax money! Happy to vote for anybody proposing to remove this useless and unfair bribe.

[westerly]

The gold card was and is a clear bribe, buying votes for Winston mainly from city folks. Nobody else can use this thing, but everybody pays for it. Thanks Winston for bribing other people with my tax money! Happy to vote for anybody proposing to remove this useless and unfair bribe.

You must pay a lot of tax if you are funding the gold card.

westerly

[Daytr]

Well at least some benefit from it, although I agree it could be better managed i'e. Means tested or something.
However its far better than speaking $30M on a flag debate.


The gold card was and is a clear bribe, buying votes for Winston mainly from city folks. Nobody else can use this thing, but everybody pays for it. Thanks Winston for bribing other people with my tax money! Happy to vote for anybody proposing to remove this useless and unfair bribe.

[BlackPeter]

You must pay a lot of tax if you are funding the gold card.

westerly

So - why do you think it is o.k. that all New Zealanders are forking out money so that a group (of not even poor) superannuitants who happen to live in the right location can make free ferry trips to Waiheke Island and drink their coffee over there? Ridiculous scheme.

[fungus pudding]

Well at least some benefit from it, although I agree it could be better managed i'e. Means tested or something.
However its far better than speaking $30M on a flag debate.

If the vote results in a new flag to give us an identity, rather than look like Australia, then it is a bargain. $26 million odd is nothing in terms of the recognition it will bring NZ, which will be another boost to tourism. Even if the vote is for the status quo it will gain a fair amount of global reporting. Try buying that.

[winner69]

So - why do you think it is o.k. that all New Zealanders are forking out money so that a group (of not even poor) superannuitants who happen to live in the right location can make free ferry trips to Waiheke Island and drink their coffee over there? Ridiculous scheme.

I use my card to get the ferry across Wellington Harbour to Days Bay for my coffee

Sometimes stop off at Matiu Somes Island for a wander around

Fantastic scheme this Super Goldcard - we deserve it

[fungus pudding]

I use my card to get the ferry across Wellington Harbour to Days Bay for my coffee

Sometimes stop off at Matiu Somes Island for a wander around

Fantastic scheme this Super Goldcard - we deserve it

I've had mine for a couple of years and haven't found a use for it yet - might have to move to the North Island. :scared:

[BlackPeter]

I use my card to get the ferry across Wellington Harbour to Days Bay for my coffee

Sometimes stop off at Matiu Somes Island for a wander around

Fantastic scheme this Super Goldcard - we deserve it

A great bribe for a small number of privileged people, payed by everybody. But that's what left politics is all about - isn't it?

[westerly]

So - why do you think it is o.k. that all New Zealanders are forking out money so that a group (of not even poor) superannuitants who happen to live in the right location can make free ferry trips to Waiheke Island and drink their coffee over there? Ridiculous scheme.

It is for off peak travel, usually the bus,boat has few passengers at those times. The govt. subsidy probably supports the service which in your world would not exist because few if any public transport services are profitable without a subsidy.
You did say your taxes were supporting gold card. :)

westerly

[BlackPeter]

It is for off peak travel, usually the bus,boat has few passengers at those times. The govt. subsidy probably supports the service which in your world would not exist because few if any public transport services are profitable without a subsidy.
You did say your taxes were supporting gold card. :)

westerly

Yes, that's what I said. What is your point?

[westerly]

Yes, that's what I said. What is your point?

Bluntly the extremely small amount your taxes contribute to the gold scheme is not worth your effort in complaining

westerly

[BlackPeter]

Bluntly the extremely small amount your taxes contribute to the gold scheme is not worth your effort in complaining

westerly

"A penny saved is a penny earned" and many small election bribes accumulate.

Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribes.

However - I agree: compared to the money Helen threw around to buy her 3 terms in power do Winston's bribes look like small fry.

[westerly]

"A penny saved is a penny earned" and many small election bribes accumulate.

Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribes.

However - I agree: compared to the money Helen threw around to buy her 3 terms in power do Winston's bribes look like small fry.

Apart from the Gold Card, perhaps you could list some of his old bribes we are paying for?

westerly

[BlackPeter]

Apart from the Gold Card, perhaps you could list some of his old bribes we are paying for?

westerly

Well, he promised that he is not going for the baubles of power. And than he did. I guess his election bribe was to stay away from power, but he broke his promise. Does this qualify?

But hey - you got me. I had all the other old left-wing election bribes in mind when I wrote my sentence (like interest free student loans, working for families, "free" child care for preschoolers, Nationalising of Kiwi Rail, ...)

Enough for you to justify the plural?

But hey - it is your beloved Winston, so happy to change my sentence from

"Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribes. "

to:

Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribe and Labours old bribes. "

[BIRMANBOY]

In many cases I believe the "cost" is worn by the party giving the discount...not the govt. So for example my dentist gives 10% disc to all gold card holders...low bus fares would be worn by city council. I hardly ever use mine but I certainly don't begrudge elderly people who have to use the bus getting a freebie...its not like its taking up rush hour seats and makes it possible for elderly people to get out and about and circulate some money into the economy by going downtown rather than just the corner dairy and triple mark up baked beans. Of course paying for W69's international cruises to Days Bay for coffee is a bit of a rort but most days he would be too sea-sick to enjoy it anyway:)
A great bribe for a small number of privileged people, payed by everybody. But that's what left politics is all about - isn't it?

[fungus pudding]

In many cases I believe the "cost" is worn by the party giving the discount...not the govt. So for example my dentist gives 10% disc to all gold card holders...

So the dentist's other customers pay more than they should have to, cos it sure won't be the dentist missing out.

[BIRMANBOY]

LOL...yes the amount they must make has got to be in the multiple hundreds of thousands. Still a mucky way of making a living( especially with my fangs) so god bless him.
So the dentist's other customers pay more than they should have to, cos it sure won't be the dentist missing out.

[winner69]

In many cases I believe the "cost" is worn by the party giving the discount...not the govt. So for example my dentist gives 10% disc to all gold card holders...low bus fares would be worn by city council. I hardly ever use mine but I certainly don't begrudge elderly people who have to use the bus getting a freebie...its not like its taking up rush hour seats and makes it possible for elderly people to get out and about and circulate some money into the economy by going downtown rather than just the corner dairy and triple mark up baked beans. Of course paying for W69's international cruises to Days Bay for coffee is a bit of a rort but most days he would be too sea-sick to enjoy it anyway:)

But I adding to the economy of Days Bay when I spend some the national super over there.

Nice

[blackcap]

In a way I am a pure capitalist but for some reason I do not mind the "off peak" use for travel for the oldies. I mean it costs nothing more for the bus or train service to operate and transport these people.... (they would otherwise run empty anyway) so I do not see what the operators are moaning about "cost". As for the dentist... well that's a choice he or she makes... live with it. :)

[elZorro]

And I think most politicians will have their heads around the idea that money in circulation is good money, as far as taxes go.

BP, most of what you call 'election bribes' is a part-rebalancing of the money taken off certain sectors by National, which then also boosts the economy. For example, the hospitality sector found the new 18 year drinking age and interest free loans helped in their turnover. Tertiary students still pay a lot more for their education than they used to.

[elZorro]

My son has just been granted a student loan, I'm glad it's interest free for him, at least. In a perfect world, the equivalent of an A bursary would pay for his accommodation and food while away from home, and his fees would be on the state, just like they used to be. Any external work he did, would be for spending.

It's only in a desperate bid to stay in power, that National hasn't unwound the interest free loans. They'd like to, but they still fear the student vote. In fact, National seems to be quite popular on campus, which more reflects what Labour and the Greens are not doing correctly.

Meanwhile, our country's finances are in the doldrums, heading down. Inflation at 0.1%, vege prices down, the dairy payout looking increasingly bad. The primary sector is in for a hammering, that's not going to help the provinces.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/economy/news/article.cfm?c_id=34&objectid=11576764&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+21 +January+2016

I have been made aware of lengthening terms of payment being used by large rural suppliers and dairy companies - they can't pay on the 20th following any more - in fact they can't even pay by the 20th of the following month after that. This will ripple through the entire NZ economy, as any suppliers to these firms will have to go to their banks and extend their payment terms, if they are sailing close to the wind. While all this is going on, the big firms are asking for cheaper prices, better deals, low labour rates, free quotes, generally lots of talking but no action.

Are we in a race to the bottom? Is that what National have mapped out for the hoi polloi?

[Major von Tempsky]

But if wage levels fall and the CPI falls even faster then you have an increasing standard of living, EZ.

If, as is happening, tourism (which is labour intensive) takes the place of dairying this is beneficial to the regions as tourism is regionally dispersed. And it's also good for pollution.
Meat is doing very well, dairy farmers can switch to cattle and sheep.

We have 4 adult children who took out student loans. One paid it off herself and I paid off the other 3. If they are interest free it's much easier to deal with.

Does everything have to be doom and gloom in the hope it will scare ignorant voters into voting Labour?

[craic]

Two of mine had student loans. One worked through his degree and paid it off by the time he had finished and purchased a town house in Auckland and continued working. The second completed a full trade apprenticeship, then a degree part time from London. His employers, Goldman Sachs paid fully for the degree after he had passed it. My third offspring stated her own business, now worth millions. The left attitude that everyone should be able to get a degree regardless of how useless it is or how dead in the head they are is costly and futile. Motivation is a skill that is taught in the home and my travels in the field leave me in no doubt that plastering over the cracks with dollar notes doesn't work. Crack someone around the ear for being a prick and it's a criminal offence - Stuff up the lives of a whole bunch of kids by being a lousy and neglectful parent and you are seen as a victim and the problem is a "social" one.

[Sgt Pepper]

A recent conversation between Bill and John

John Key " hey Bill regarding the May budget, didn't you promise something prior to the last election?"

Bill English" Yep TAX CUTS, and YOU promised it, you idiot, I told you not to'

John Key" Sh.T! what are you going to do?"

Bill English" No, what are you going to do?"

John Key" Whats Crosby Textors number??

[winner69]

Another cartoon from Sharon hitting the nail on the head.

Corporatocracy winning out, no doubt

They will be happy with Key's support to date, probably getting him stay on to make sure the next steps go without a hitch.

[BlackPeter]

And I think most politicians will have their heads around the idea that money in circulation is good money, as far as taxes go.

BP, most of what you call 'election bribes' is a part-rebalancing of the money taken off certain sectors by National, which then also boosts the economy. For example, the hospitality sector found the new 18 year drinking age and interest free loans helped in their turnover. Tertiary students still pay a lot more for their education than they used to.

Are you saying that the 18 year drinking age and the interest free student loan have been introduced to support the hospitality industry? I guess this is an interesting point of view. Drinking age might be a discussion for a different thread ... but if you say that our tax money is used to increase the intoxication rate of still rather young people ... not sure, whether I would call this a good thing.

Anyway - each to their own:p.

[elZorro]

Are you saying that the 18 year drinking age and the interest free student loan have been introduced to support the hospitality industry? I guess this is an interesting point of view. Drinking age might be a discussion for a different thread ... but if you say that our tax money is used to increase the intoxication rate of still rather young people ... not sure, whether I would call this a good thing.

Anyway - each to their own:p.

I didn't say it was a good thing overall, Labour should have left it at 20 yrs I think. But there's no denying that the money rotates around the economy. The bigger student bars in Hamilton target the university area for mailouts and flyers, advertising. Years ago, they had to 'officially' wait until the students had been in town for a year or two, and turned 20.

Student loans were previously spent on all sorts of stuff, but they've been a bit more crafty with it lately, making sure the fees are paid first by direct transfer, and leaving about $50 pocket money a week with the students.

[westerly]

But if wage levels fall and the CPI falls even faster then you have an increasing standard of living, EZ.

And profits fall and businesses struggle.

"If, as is happening, tourism (which is labour intensive) takes the place of dairying this is beneficial to the regions as tourism is regionally dispersed. And it's also good for pollution.
Meat is doing very well, dairy farmers can switch to cattle and sheep."

Tell that to a farmer with a dairy herd to dispose of and a large mortgage.

"We have 4 adult children who took out student loans. One paid it off herself and I paid off the other 3. If they are interest free it's much easier to deal with."

Daddy will look after us

"Does everything have to be doom and gloom in the hope it will scare ignorant voters into voting Labour?

Trust the educated National/Act supporter to have rose tinted glasses

westerly

[elZorro]

Trust the educated National/Act supporter to have rose tinted glasses

westerly

Yes, we all know that tourism jobs are some of the lowest paid, and the hospitality sector is just as bad. We can't build a smart economy on that, even if it looks slightly interesting.

Might I suggest to Vince, or the person in charge of renaming threads, that we rename this thread as pertaining to the 2017 elections? It still mentions 2011 in some places. Let's keep up with the times, be relevant, it's going to be a tough battle for the next election. There's a lot at stake. We'll be posting and generating traffic, so we deserve a well-named thread. Don't chop the thread out please, just rename it.

Labour is going to start releasing new policy in 2016. Looks like they have a useful tertiary education policy planned.

http://thestandard.org.nz/tertiary-fee-drop-excellent-proposal-from-labour/

[fungus pudding]

Might I suggest to Vince, or the person in charge of renaming threads, that we rename this thread as pertaining to the 2017 election

It is every bit as pertinent to the 2017 election as it was to the last two elections. Renaming it would be pointless.

[Daytr]

That's a big if & yes if you think our flag should be a corporate logo.
More than likely its $30M down the drain.


If the vote results in a new flag to give us an identity, rather than look like Australia, then it is a bargain. $26 million odd is nothing in terms of the recognition it will bring NZ, which will be another boost to tourism. Even if the vote is for the status quo it will gain a fair amount of global reporting. Try buying that.

[Daytr]

National are still making bribes. Just ask a certain Saudi businessman.


Well, he promised that he is not going for the baubles of power. And than he did. I guess his election bribe was to stay away from power, but he broke his promise. Does this qualify?

But hey - you got me. I had all the other old left-wing election bribes in mind when I wrote my sentence (like interest free student loans, working for families, "free" child care for preschoolers, Nationalising of Kiwi Rail, ...)

Enough for you to justify the plural?

But hey - it is your beloved Winston, so happy to change my sentence from

"Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribes. "

to:

Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribe and Labours old bribes. "

[westerly]

Well, he promised that he is not going for the baubles of power. And than he did. I guess his election bribe was to stay away from power, but he broke his promise. Does this qualify?

But hey - you got me. I had all the other old left-wing election bribes in mind when I wrote my sentence (like interest free student loans, working for families, "free" child care for preschoolers, Nationalising of Kiwi Rail, ...)

Enough for you to justify the plural?

But hey - it is your beloved Winston, so happy to change my sentence from

"Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribes. "

to:

Remember - Winston First is already looking for a new bribe to keep him for the next term in parliament, while we keep paying for his old bribe and Labours old bribes. "

Politicans offer bribes at election time, that is normal political behaviour. Remember Muldoon and superanuation, Key and tax cuts, and the 10 bridges in the recent Northland bye election. National is not immune ( and we all keep paying :)
Incidentally only 3 bridges were approved for funding but National's Bridges says he will do some arm twisting (not in so many words of course ) to
have them approved.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

That's a big if & yes if you think our flag should be a corporate logo.
More than likely its $30M down the drain.

The alternative flag is no more - or no less a corporate logo than the current flag. A successful corporate logo should be able to be recognised and identified with the entity concerned, without writing. e.g. McDonalds golden arches. A flag should be the same, and in time more and more countries will drop their bland, meaningless* flags in order to boost their identities. Our current flag might do something for Australasia, but not NZ - and that just confuses the vast majority of the world who have never heard of New Zealand. I much preferred the red, white and blue Lockwood design but nevertheless will vote for change, because anything is better than the current one.

* meaningless to anyone but the citizens of the country e.g. Haiti, Bolivia, Ukraine.

[winner69]

Seems appropriate the TPPA should be signed at den of iniquity lie Sky City (sorry it is really just a convention centre isn't it)

At least Sue et all won't have to travel far to make a noise. If I was in Auckland I'd join in

[BlackPeter]

Listened this morning to the Little interview in Morning Report ("Andrew Little on Labours year ahead"):

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201786779/andrew-little-on-labour's-year-ahead

And as the title promised - Andrew had little to say ... despite indulging in a tsunami of weasel words to avoid a clear answer on Labours stance on the TPPA. Ah well - he probably didn't had the time to read it yet ...

I was not sure whether I should feel more sorry for this inept politician or for the interviewer who, by trying to get a clear answer out of Little, had a more difficult time than if trying to nail some piece of custard against a wall.

Why does Labour choose to put somebody in leadership who can't talk, can't convince and can't even take a position?

Maybe they like to lose and punish themselves?

Given the sorry state of the Labour Leadership do I not think that National will need this time support to win the elections. They can save the money for CR (or whoever) and just play the Little interview often enough prior to the next elections in the media.

Or is this just the prelude to the next leadership gamble within the "little" old party? Little gone before the end of the year? But than - which other Labour PM would be brave enough to take over the leadership of a clearly sinking ship prior to the next elections?

Maybe we should rename this thread to "Any chance for the Left to win in 2020"?

[craic]

As a key supporter, I find Little a lot easier than any of the other clowns they produced in recent years. His reluctance to commit on issues is sensible in some ways in that it's a long time to the next election and all politicians will be looking for flaws, backtracks and contradictions. I'm surprise that he does not have a clear position on the trade deal - he needs to get that sorted quickly.

[BlackPeter]

As a key supporter, I find Little a lot easier than any of the other clowns they produced in recent years. His reluctance to commit on issues is sensible in some ways in that it's a long time to the next election and all politicians will be looking for flaws, backtracks and contradictions. I'm surprise that he does not have a clear position on the trade deal - he needs to get that sorted quickly.

As a key supporter, I find Little a lot easier than any of the other clowns they produced in recent years.
Agreed - he is certainly not the worst of the recent line up. Not sure though, whether I would call him the best either. in my view Shearer was so far their only realistic chance after HC to get back into government, though probably not good enough either. But they ditched him anyway

His reluctance to commit on issues is sensible in some ways in that it's a long time to the next election and all politicians will be looking for flaws, backtracks and contradictions.

Sure, but still - people prefer somebody with straight answers. How hard can it be to either say
"There are aspects of the TPP we don't like, but overall we believe that signing it is better for New Zealand than not signing it and therefore we will support it in parliament"
or alternatively:
"We don't like the package and will oppose it in parliament"


I'm surprise that he does not have a clear position on the trade deal - he needs to get that sorted quickly.

Agreed - he needs to sort that out quickly, but not sure whether the need for urgency came across in the interview. Is this what you heard?

[winner69]

Listened this morning to the Little interview in Morning Report ("Andrew Little on Labours year ahead"):

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201786779/andrew-little-on-labour's-year-ahead

And as the title promised - Andrew had little to say ... despite indulging in a tsunami of weasel words to avoid a clear answer on Labours stance on the TPPA. Ah well - he probably didn't had the time to read it yet ...

I was not sure whether I should feel more sorry for this inept politician or for the interviewer who, by trying to get a clear answer out of Little, had a more difficult time than if trying to nail some piece of custard against a wall.

Why does Labour choose to put somebody in leadership who can't talk, can't convince and can't even take a position?

Maybe they like to lose and punish themselves?

Given the sorry state of the Labour Leadership do I not think that National will need this time support to win the elections. They can save the money for CR (or whoever) and just play the Little interview often enough prior to the next elections in the media.

Or is this just the prelude to the next leadership gamble within the "little" old party? Little gone before the end of the year? But than - which other Labour PM would be brave enough to take over the leadership of a clearly sinking ship prior to the next elections?

Maybe we should rename this thread to "Any chance for the Left to win in 2020"?

It was a real shocker eh BP - esp if he is to be seen as a leader/PM in waiting. I think thats it in hoping Little might be more than just OK

I'm sure even EZ would be dismayed with this performance this morning.

[fungus pudding]

It was a real shocker eh BP - esp if he is to be seen as a leader/PM in waiting. I think thats it in hoping Little might be more than just OK

I'm sure even EZ would be dismayed with this performance this morning.

No he won't.

[westerly]

It was a real shocker eh BP - esp if he is to be seen as a leader/PM in waiting. I think thats it in hoping Little might be more than just OK

I'm sure even EZ would be dismayed with this performance this morning.

Am I missing something? As Little said the TTPA deal is done, it will be signed on Feb. 4
He stated quite clearly there were sections of the deal that had nothing to do with trade and that Labour did not agree with these.
As Parliament does not resume until the 9 th of February there is no chance to debate the deal and whether Labour agrees or not is irrelevant .
He obviously has reservations and perhaps you and the interviewer should not have expected a straight yes no answer.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

No he won't.

And neither will Westerley

[elZorro]

I'll tell you what surprises me about the TPPA. That National can say we'd have a $2bill benefit by 2030. When? In 15 years' time? They don't even know if we'll have another GFC in 2016. Or if they'll balance the books in the next financial year. (My bet would be NO).

15 years, in terms of abrupt climate change possibilities, is so far off. International trade could be on the backburner by then. I'd pick that most countries will be growing most of their own food much closer to home, and making their own goods if they can.

Don't forget that National rode to power on the back of a Treasury report that said we'd be in for years of deficits under Labour policy settings. National 'fixed' that rubbish and unfounded scenario by borrowing with taxpayers' future tax funds. They also sold stuff off that they should have kept. Now they're selling IP and our sovereignty off, effectively. Why is John pushing this NZ signing through, in advance of the US Congress? Because it will help the passage through their house no doubt.

Regarding Andrew Little. He has his hands tied over something, I wouldn't know what it is. But once he knows what the story is going to be, I'm sure he'll let us all know.

[winner69]

I'll tell you what surprises me about the TPPA. That National can say we'd have a $2bill benefit by 2030. When? In 15 years' time? They don't even know if we'll have another GFC in 2016. Or if they'll balance the books in the next financial year. (My bet would be NO).

15 years, in terms of abrupt climate change possibilities, is so far off. International trade could be on the backburner by then. I'd pick that most countries will be growing most of their own food much closer to home, and making their own goods if they can.

Don't forget that National rode to power on the back of a Treasury report that said we'd be in for years of deficits under Labour policy settings. National 'fixed' that rubbish and unfounded scenario by borrowing with taxpayers' future tax funds. They also sold stuff off that they should have kept. Now they're selling IP and our sovereignty off, effectively. Why is John pushing this NZ signing through, in advance of the US Congress? Because it will help the passage through their house no doubt.

Regarding Andrew Little. He has his hands tied over something, I wouldn't know what it is. But once he knows what the story is going to be, I'm sure he'll let us all know.

He's going to tell us that story next weekend isn't he?

[Daytr]

Australia no doubt copied our flag because it is such a good one. ;-)
Anyway I'm winding you up as I think we should change the flag at some point, but now is not the time or just to appease one man's ego.

Really not much being said at the moment. Plenty of NZ flags at the cricket. Haven't seen any take up flying the alternative.
Thanks ShonKey for wasting $38M of tax payer money.
We could lose an America's Cup for that!


The alternative flag is no more - or no less a corporate logo than the current flag. A successful corporate logo should be able to be recognised and identified with the entity concerned, without writing. e.g. McDonalds golden arches. A flag should be the same, and in time more and more countries will drop their bland, meaningless* flags in order to boost their identities. Our current flag might do something for Australasia, but not NZ - and that just confuses the vast majority of the world who have never heard of New Zealand. I much preferred the red, white and blue Lockwood design but nevertheless will vote for change, because anything is better than the current one.

* meaningless to anyone but the citizens of the country e.g. Haiti, Bolivia, Ukraine.

[Sgt Pepper]

Found this wee gem, from John Key speech on tax in 2008

"Following on from the tax cuts of 1 October 2008, National will be making further tax reductions on 1 April 2009, 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011"


I can't actually recall receiving a second or for that matter third tranche of tax cuts, does anyone else??

[Sgt Pepper]

The strange case of John Keys observations on NZ becoming a republic

2003 " I am a little bit republican" ( probably wont get a knighthood)

2008 " Inevitable NZ will become a republic" ( chance I am getting a knighthood)

2016 " NZ wont be a republic in my lifetime" ( I, and Bronagh, want, and am getting a knighthood)

[elZorro]

Found this wee gem, from John Key speech on tax in 2008

"Following on from the tax cuts of 1 October 2008, National will be making further tax reductions on 1 April 2009, 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011"


I can't actually recall receiving a second or for that matter third tranche of tax cuts, does anyone else??

That was just an April Fools' Joke. Add it to the list of John Key's lies, Sgt Pepper.

http://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-big-list-of-john-keys-big-fat-lies-updated/

[craic]

If Andrew Little has his hands tied over "something" and neither he nor you can tell us what it is, God help the Labour Party - no one else will help them, certainly not the voters.

[elZorro]

If Andrew Little has his hands tied over "something" and neither he nor you can tell us what it is, God help the Labour Party - no one else will help them, certainly not the voters.

That is surely fanciful conjecture Craic. Andrew Little was on TV1 this morning, he looked more certain of Labour's position. Labour opposes the TPPA provisions that cut across NZ's democracy.

I wish Andrew wouldn't do his eye exercises when he's in front of the camera though. For a fraction of a second, he looks like a muppet. Luckily he's much smarter than that, and I don't recall him being caught out lying. With John Key, we just expect it now. It's quite OK, it's the new normal.

Found this report on Huntly Power Station: Genesis can't make enough profit out of holding the old turbines available. So they want to close them down. It's probably a bluff to get the other gentailers to help pay for the standby facility.


27/1/2016 — Coal, Lignite and CSG/CBM
Power chiefs ponder Huntly coal issue

There was a familiar caustic reaction to news that energy company chiefs were discussing the issue of keeping coal-fired units open at the Huntly power station.
Greenpeace described the proposal as a disgrace as it used social media to trumpet its view.
The last two coal-fired power units at Huntly operated by Genesis Energy Ltd (NZX & ASX: GNE) were scheduled to be shut down in 2018.
Radio New Zealand said electricity industry leaders were worried this could leave a shortage of power from 2019 and discussions were being held with Genesis whose chief executive Albert Brantley had pointed out the coal plant were uneconomic under current arrangements.
He was, he said, open to commercial suggestions.
“We have been open that if we can see an economic justification for doing so which allows us to make a reasonable return for our shareholders, then we will do that.
Radio NZ said Brantley would give few details about the talks but one of the main participants was Meridian Energy Ltd (NZX: MEL; ASX: MEZ), whose chief executive Mark Binns sounded the alarm last November about not having the coal-fired facilities available as a back-up.
“It is the biggest issue for the industry as a whole,” he said at the time.
Radio NZ said industry observers said Meridian was particularly exposed to risk from the Huntly shutdown and Binns has himself warned his company might have to reduce the number of customers it serves.
But Transpower has also warned of risks after 2018. In the second of two reports, it called the security of supply in 2019 ‘highly uncertain.’
It said the dry winter risk would still be very high, even if 100 Megawatts of new electricity generation were installed after the Huntly plants shut down.
If 350 megawatts were set up, the risk would slip from very high to high, and it would be moderate if 600 megawatts were installed.
Source: radionz.co.nz




If ECNZ was still there, it wouldn't matter, and we'd have new generation sites going in where it was sensible. Not just because one competing SOE or private electricity company wants more market share or profit. Note that the old turbines can run on gas or coal. Handy when the gas pipeline is out of action for any reason.

[Major von Tempsky]

The old socialist ECNZ days are gone EZ and won't be coming back. Even now, Vector for one is advertising quotes on solar power together with TESLA batteries. Roll forward 10 years and there will be a continuing power surplus and every household will be a power producer and the electricity market will a field of perfect competition.

Union members are a small minority and union membership is dropping away even further.

It's just a matter of time until the permanently out of power Labour Party is displaced as the major Opposition Party.

[craic]

Has anyone noticed? The female half of the Greens leadership has now moved to a 95% - 5% position of power in that party. I can't even remember the name of the unfortunate five-percenter. Maybe its actually Daytr and he is too busy being all things to all men on this site?

[winner69]

Has anyone noticed? The female half of the Greens leadership has now moved to a 95% - 5% position of power in that party. I can't even remember the name of the unfortunate five-percenter. Maybe its actually Daytr and he is too busy being all things to all men on this site?


I think his name is James something

Last seen sleeping out rough in Auckland in support of the homeless

[fungus pudding]

Has anyone noticed? The female half of the Greens leadership has now moved to a 95% - 5% position of power in that party. I can't even remember the name of the unfortunate five-percenter. Maybe its actually Daytr and he is too busy being all things to all men on this site?

Yeah, I've noticed. She has more to say now that Norman Russell is out of the way. If the greens weren't so silly they would appoint a leader - one proper leader. That would be the first step if they want to ever get anywhere. When the current female co-leader has moved on will the position have to be filled by a Maori again, or will any old female do? I can't think of anything sillier than having a male co-leader and a female co-leader. :confused:

[Logen Ninefingers]

Our Socialist - Corporatist - Elitist - (as opposed to Capitalist) - High House Price-erist government realizes the game is almost up & the party is almost down to it's last drink, so lets push things out for a bit further with a huge public works program. Dairy industry under the pump, housing Ponzi scheme starting to creak, China looking shaky (their share market plunging again today). Why print money when you can just borrow billions?? At this point the globalist govts including ours don't give a toss how much money they print / borrow. Mario Draghi races to start talking about more QE as soon as the global debt chickens look like coming home to roost.


Roading and other infrastructure projects are creating thousands of jobs around the country, the Government says.
It's estimated major roading projects will involve around 35,000 jobs while work on state highways provides a further 2100, Finance Minister Bill English and Employment Minister Steven Joyce said in a joint statement today.
Ultra-fast broadband and rural broadband work was expected to result in more than 4000 jobs, with a further 3000 from major rail upgrades, they said.
Over the next 10 years, central and local government are expected to spend $110 billion on infrastructure.
"Quality infrastructure networks such as transport, telecommunications, energy and water help to give businesses confidence to invest another dollar and employ another person," the ministers said.
"But infrastructure development also creates jobs directly."http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/govt...#ixzz3yPetGx11

[craic]

Geeze Wayne! What if the public disagree with you to the extent that they have been disagreeing with you for several years?

[elZorro]

Our Socialist - Corporatist - Elitist - (as opposed to Capitalist) - High House Price-erist government realizes the game is almost up & the party is almost down to it's last drink, so lets push things out for a bit further with a huge public works program. Dairy industry under the pump, housing Ponzi scheme starting to creak, China looking shaky (their share market plunging again today). Why print money when you can just borrow billions?? At this point the globalist govts including ours don't give a toss how much money they print / borrow. Mario Draghi races to start talking about more QE as soon as the global debt chickens look like coming home to roost.


Roading and other infrastructure projects are creating thousands of jobs around the country, the Government says.
It's estimated major roading projects will involve around 35,000 jobs while work on state highways provides a further 2100, Finance Minister Bill English and Employment Minister Steven Joyce said in a joint statement today.
Ultra-fast broadband and rural broadband work was expected to result in more than 4000 jobs, with a further 3000 from major rail upgrades, they said.
Over the next 10 years, central and local government are expected to spend $110 billion on infrastructure.
"Quality infrastructure networks such as transport, telecommunications, energy and water help to give businesses confidence to invest another dollar and employ another person," the ministers said.
"But infrastructure development also creates jobs directly."http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/govt...#ixzz3yPetGx11

I think I agree with you Logen. We've known for decades that ongoing economic and human population growth is unsustainable for Planet Earth, but no-one wants to give up their share of the profits. Graeme Cairns of the McGillicuddy Serious Party might be the most sane person in Hamilton, with his "Great Leap Backwards" concept.

[Sgt Pepper]

Yeah, I've noticed. She has more to say now that Norman Russell is out of the way. If the greens weren't so silly they would appoint a leader - one proper leader. That would be the first step if they want to ever get anywhere. When the current female co-leader has moved on will the position have to be filled by a Maori again, or will any old female do? I can't think of anything sillier than having a male co-leader and a female co-leader. :confused:

FP
But National has a female co-leader, her name is Judith Collins.

[fungus pudding]

FP
But National has a female co-leader, her name is Judith Collins.

If Collins ever got to be leader she would prove as unpopular as Little. It won't happen.

[elZorro]

If Collins ever got to be leader she would prove as unpopular as Little. It won't happen.

It wouldn't matter who the leaders are of any left-wing opposition parties, FP will always say they are rubbish. Andrew's not going anywhere else, he's got a job to do, get used to it.

[fungus pudding]

It wouldn't matter who the leaders are of any left-wing opposition parties, FP will always say they are rubbish. Andrew's not going anywhere else, he's got a job to do, get used to it.

Not so eZ. I might not have agreed with some of Helen Clarke's ideas, but I certainly took my hat off to her as a leader of the party and an excellent P.M.
And FWIW both National and Labour have had their bad moments, poor leaders and mediocre MPs. Believe it or not I have voted for Labour on several occasions. Having said that, I think the current lot are hopeless. There are a couple of newbies who might shine if they come out of the shadows, but out of the old brigade only Annette King shows political talent. Little looked for a moment that he might get a foothold on his position, but he just hasn't shone - and won't. I think Shearer may have been their best bet had he been given more of a chance. He was likeable and since his demotion has shown it.

[Daytr]

James Shaw the co-leader of the Greens has had a very strong start to his co-leadership and represented the Greens at the Paris Climate summit. So I suggest removing the blinkers. He also supported the change to the flag referendum, something I would have thought you would support Fungus.

[fungus pudding]

James Shaw the co-leader of the Greens has had a very strong start to his co-leadership and represented the Greens at the Paris Climate summit. So I suggest removing the blinkers. He also supported the change to the flag referendum, something I would have thought you would support Fungus.

He's probably alright. The point I was making is he doesn't dominate leadership like Norman Russel did. Doesn't alter the fact that co-leadership is ridiculous and ultimately will damage the greens. I don't know why I would approve of support to the flag referendum change. That was silly. So was attending the Paris thing.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think I agree with you Logen. We've known for decades that ongoing economic and human population growth is unsustainable for Planet Earth, but no-one wants to give up their share of the profits. Graeme Cairns of the McGillicuddy Serious Party might be the most sane person in Hamilton, with his "Great Leap Backwards" concept.

Why don't governments around the world - including the US - start utilizing the Capitalist system whereby capital is supposed to be allocated efficiently / businesses stand or fall based on their own merits etc. Markets operating without outside interference. If everyone thinks Capitalism is a fantastic system which has elevated millions of human beings out of poverty, let it operate. But the system currently operating is all about Central Bankers making pronouncements every other day to keep markets up, QE, interest rates at staggeringly low levels, huge bail-outs....it's an absolute dogs breakfast. All sorts of bizarre fall-out happening now - oil prices at USD 27 a barrel, currency wars, global deflation. Our own Reserve Bank talking of further interest rate cuts, the government ramping up borrowing for public works to paper over economic cracks. Auckland Housing Market now too big to fail. It's got our whole economy by the balls.

[craic]

And even Logen Ninefingers, Daytr and the rest of us all have the freedom to speak and vote as we wish and the power to change what we can change and learn to enjoy the bits we can't change. So whats the problem? I didn't like being a poverty stricken lad in an Irish village so I moved. There must be somewhere on the planet where you can be blissfully happy and contented with your lot. If the rain would stop. I would be even happier and so would the cricket people down at the park.

[Logen Ninefingers]

And even Logen Ninefingers, Daytr and the rest of us all have the freedom to speak and vote as we wish and the power to change what we can change and learn to enjoy the bits we can't change. So whats the problem? I didn't like being a poverty stricken lad in an Irish village so I moved. There must be somewhere on the planet where you can be blissfully happy and contented with your lot. If the rain would stop. I would be even happier and so would the cricket people down at the park.

What's the problem? We live in a supposedly enlightened age of wonderful technological advances and yet in 2016 we have an increasingly unstable world, more wars, a broken global economic system run for the benefit of bankers and elites, a media that is pandering to the basest human instincts and becoming more and more universally tabloid. Humanity - a pack of cavemen/women with a thin veneer of civilization and technology smeared on top. Fear and greed.
In NZ I could vote for the 'right wing' party who are a populist party and just want to stay in power at all costs. Not a trace of austerity here, the debt continues to pile up and even so they can never do anything good in the eyes of the Left. Now we have food in schools as demanded by the Left and they immediately acted like that never happened and continued to bray about poverty. I obviously can't vote for the Left as they would probably borrow at twice the level of the current mob.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think what it is that we've got a system in the western world that is an unhappy compromise between Left and Right politics....we've ended up with the worst aspects of both.

[BlackPeter]

I think what it is that we've got a system in the western world that is an unhappy compromise between Left and Right politics....we've ended up with the worst aspects of both.

Well, if you really believe what you are saying ... why don't you just follow Craig's example and go to a place you consider as better. Can't be difficult to find if our system is "worst" (as you say). Try Somalia, Iraq, Russia, China, ... so many options to choose from to get away from our terrible western system:p

Or is this a Winston Churchill "worst"? He is quoted as saying "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others". I tend to agree with him and like to live in a free state under Churchill's worst system. Sure - it always could be better, but it is still a great system, particularly considered it is run by humans ...

[BIRMANBOY]

Yes probably be better off with a good old dictator to remove any choice. However the thread is about shares, investing and protecting investment NOT about plumbing the considerable capacity for humans to whinge incessantly.
I think what it is that we've got a system in the western world that is an unhappy compromise between Left and Right politics....we've ended up with the worst aspects of both.

[fungus pudding]

Yes probably be better off with a good old dictator to remove any choice. However the thread is about shares, investing and protecting investment NOT about plumbing the considerable capacity for humans to whinge incessantly.

This thread is in the elections forum; hardly off topic.

[BIRMANBOY]

Yes you are right. Thought I was on the "black Monday" ...however still excessively whinging..moderately apologetic.
This thread is in the elections forum; hardly off topic.

[winner69]

This would do the trick for Little and Labour

Cartton by Emerson

[BlackPeter]

This would do the trick for Little and Labour

Cartton by Emerson

Ouch ...

but just wondering - wouldn't it be easier for Winston instead of Andrew to copy Trump? Same populist ah - thoughtful picked policies to satisfy the backwards looking part of the population, similar shape, and they are both good in talking without sense ... Well, agreed - Trump is taller, but so is his country;)

[elZorro]

This would do the trick for Little and Labour

Cartoon by Emerson

W69, at least Labour have decided what they think about the TPPA, it's not good for us. This should be the start of a good partnership with the Greens in 2016, another area the party faithful want sorted out.

Emmerson's right of course, Andrew can be a bit dull in front of the camera. Too many words, not enough sound bites, nothing to take home. Will someone please train him up for the media appearances that are becoming more critical? There's nothing wrong with Labour policy in general - Andrew is safe as the leader. Time to show some confidence. John Key will put his foot in it again, sooner or later.

[Daytr]

Another example of the police being the long arm of John Key. The police knock on the door of potential TPPA protestors. Subtle intimidation tactics.
Nicky Hager raid, illegal, Dotcom raid illegal, and then there was the Du Plessis-allan instance.
This door knock is just letting people that are anti TPPA know that they are being watched.
Big Brother John Key.

[Daytr]

Perhaps because he supported democracy to get Red Peak included. Perhaps because as a new leader he was sending out an olive branch with a message that he is prepared to work with other parties no matter what side they are on. But hey he was just being silly. Perhaps you are right as he made a step to be conciliatory, that is likely to be abused, but good on him for making the step.

If he hadn't attendeed I doubt we would have found out that Key was one of the strongest opponents of making the agreement in Paris binding.
But of course a leader of the Green Party attending a global climate change summit, is just silly.
No matter if you are a wind up merchant, its not Shaw that's looking silly.




He's probably alright. The point I was making is he doesn't dominate leadership like Norman Russel did. Doesn't alter the fact that co-leadership is ridiculous and ultimately will damage the greens. I don't know why I would approve of support to the flag referendum change. That was silly. So was attending the Paris thing.

[BlackPeter]

W69, at least Labour have decided what they think about the TPPA, it's not good for us. This should be the start of a good partnership with the Greens in 2016, another area the party faithful want sorted out.

Emmerson's right of course, Andrew can be a bit dull in front of the camera. Too many words, not enough sound bites, nothing to take home. Will someone please train him up for the media appearances that are becoming more critical? There's nothing wrong with Labour policy in general - Andrew is safe as the leader. Time to show some confidence. John Key will put his foot in it again, sooner or later.

Quite right - nothing wrong with Labours policies given that the party wants apparently to stay in opposition. However - is the stance on TPPA really a Labour policy? I hear there are a number of prominent Labour politicians who full-heartedly support the TPPA: Goff, Clark, Shearer, Moore ... and there seem to be others in the caucus who just don't dare to speak up.

Isn't it more a radical and aggressive group of backwards looking comrades who try to stifle the Labour party as well as trying to set our country back by opposing free trade and destroy work places all over the country?

[westerly]

Typical Key
" Mass executions in Saudi Arabia, which New Zealand was "deeply concerned" by, had not changed the Governments plans to continue spending money on an sheep-farm 'agricultural hub' in the country by building and abattoir. He was unaware of a Ministry of Foreign Affairs paper indicating that abattoirs in the country are owned by the state, which suggests that would be a gift to Saudi government."

westerly

[BlackPeter]

Typical Key
" Mass executions in Saudi Arabia, which New Zealand was "deeply concerned" by, had not changed the Governments plans to continue spending money on an sheep-farm 'agricultural hub' in the country by building and abattoir. He was unaware of a Ministry of Foreign Affairs paper indicating that abattoirs in the country are owned by the state, which suggests that would be a gift to Saudi government."

westerly

Hmm ... I guess any love affair of Western governments with murderous and dictatorial regimes creates discomfort. Absolutely agree with that.

However calling this "typical Key" is a bit thick - isn't it? Just remember the love relationship the Labour party had over decades with the murderous and dictatorial regime in Beijing. These guys just love to slaughter innocent people. Remember the massacre they created by slaughtering their youth on the place of "heavenly peace" in Beijing? Never heard about them killing several 10 thousands of prisoners every year without proper trial? And this is the regime the Labour party was instrumental in supporting and signing treaties with.

Westerly - are you really that political one eyed that you think you can claim here the morale high ground?

[fungus pudding]

Typical Key
" Mass executions in Saudi Arabia, which New Zealand was "deeply concerned" by, had not changed the Governments plans to continue spending money on an sheep-farm 'agricultural hub' in the country by building and abattoir. He was unaware of a Ministry of Foreign Affairs paper indicating that abattoirs in the country are owned by the state, which suggests that would be a gift to Saudi government."

westerly

Presuming that is a John Key quote, who is the 'he' who was unaware.

[iceman]

Quite right - nothing wrong with Labours policies given that the party wants apparently to stay in opposition. However - is the stance on TPPA really a Labour policy? I hear there are a number of prominent Labour politicians who full-heartedly support the TPPA: Geoff, Clark, Shearer, Moore ... and there seem to be others in the caucus who just don't dare to speak up.

Isn't it more a radical and aggressive group of backwards looking comrades who try to stifle the Labour party as well as trying to set our country back by opposing free trade and destroy work places all over the country?

Not wrong BP. Former Labour Party Leaders Moore, Clark, Goff and Shearer have all spoken in favour of the TPP. Now Little says he allowed Goff to break ranks but will sanction Shearer. Go figure !!! http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11581234

[artemis]

Not wrong BP. Former Labour Party Leaders Moore, Clark, Goff and Shearer have all spoken in favour of the TPP. Now Little says he allowed Goff to break ranks but will sanction Shearer. Go figure !!! .....

Mr Little does have his reasons to censure one and not the other. But perception is everything in politics, and most outside the beltway will wonder WTF, if they take any notice at all. And that nice Mr Shearer still has a following among the party faithful.

Having said that, Mr Little has been fairly successful in reining in the caucus. Whatever differences are aired in private, most don't make it into the sunlight. No mean feat.

[westerly]

Presuming that is a John Key quote, who is the 'he' who was unaware.

The resident pedant.
It is a summary of Key's press conference from the Scoop website.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

The resident pedant.
It is a summary of Key's press conference from the Scoop website.

westerly

You should learn what quotation marks actually mean; unless you don't care that your posts don't make sense.

[fungus pudding]

W69, at least Labour have decided what they think about the TPPA, it's not good for us.

Have they indeed? How interesting.

[elZorro]

Have they indeed? How interesting.

Actually I was directing the comment to W69, who I know is fervently opposed to the TPPA, because he's probably researched it. Unlike yourself FP - you're probably going on some pub talk or radio talkback.

I just wanted to point out that Labour has some election-winning policies lined up, the first released by Andrew Little this afternoon. Three years of free tertiary education for everyone in NZ, guaranteed during their working lifetimes. That's such a clever policy! Not just for school leavers, for everyone. This is policy that fits Labour, and it will definitely help NZ during the tough economic times ahead. How long, I wonder, before National cherrypicks some of it, and pretends it was their idea?

[Daytr]

Does it really matter if some Labor party members are pro TPPA or that National does, its a great diversion from the issue.

The TPPA will be a disaster for NZ and other countries other than the US that sign. US corporates have looted their own government through privatization of government services & contracts to the point where the US government is in hack up to its eyeballs. The very same corporates dodge paying tax with offshoring. They are now looking to other country's to loot next. Key is selling us down the river and the Labor supporters of the TPPA are mugs.
Better in than out?
Absolute BS and a scare tactic.

[winner69]

daytr - ever thought that the increasing mountain of student debt in some parts of the world (inc NZ) is just anther way that corporates are 'looting' the world and getting their evil way?

'Looting' your term.

[craic]

Labour are not giving NZ three years of free tertiary education. Labour are preparing to take a vast amount of the tax we pay and hand it over to anyone who wants to be 'educated' for three years of their life. Now it goes without saying that there will be some creative education as some of Labours favourites create some wonderful subjects that they can teach - for a price.

[fungus pudding]

Actually I was directing the comment to W69, who I know is fervently opposed to the TPPA, because he's probably researched it. Unlike yourself FP - you're probably going on some pub talk or radio talkback.


What a silly remark. You have absolutely no idea what I know about TPP. You remind me of some abusive twerp who was recently banned for a few months.

[elZorro]

What a silly remark. You have absolutely no idea what I know about TPP. You remind me of some abusive twerp who was recently banned for a few months.

OK, what do you know about TPP, FP? Inform us all.

Craic, that didn't take you long to come up with a lame theory about how people will rort the new education policy, I reckon Crosby Textor wouldn't have done any better.


For and against arguments in the press already, but middle NZ needs policy like this. It won't be helpful to those of us who have already gone through a tertiary study program, but many of us got that for free, so we can't grumble.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/295382/labour's-announcement-welcomed-and-slammed

[fungus pudding]

OK, what do you know about TPP, FP? Inform us all.



The text is freely available for you.

https://tpp.mfat.govt.nz/text

[elZorro]

The text is freely available for you.

https://tpp.mfat.govt.nz/text

That'll be handy. Have you read it though? Andrew Little has.

[Daytr]

In some instances you are correct, however people have a choice to go for private school and the same for university.
Private education in many instances is a suckers game & quite often its more about status than education.
The TPPA imo will see more corporatization of government services by international companies like SERCO.


daytr - ever thought that the increasing mountain of student debt in some parts of the world (inc NZ) is just anther way that corporates are 'looting' the world and getting their evil way?

'Looting' your term.

[777]

That'll be handy. Have you read it though? Andrew Little has.

I doubt that Andrew Little has read much of it at all. He may have had some of his minions read parts of it in order to denigrate it for political purposes though.

[winner69]

@ThomedyAdams: In response to Labour's free education policy, Simon Bridges has announced the construction of at least seven new universities. #nzpol


(he is a comedian)

[BlackPeter]

That'll be handy. Have you read it though? Andrew Little has.

How do you know? Any evidence for that or just hot air?

Not that it matters, but given that Andrew had still a couple of days ago no clue how he stands related to the TPPA (remember his recent pathetic appearance on Radio New Zealand), and given that he spent the recent days in dreaming up new election bribes (right - the lolly scramble has begun - big time), do I doubt that he had the time to read it.

But as I said - it doesn't matter a bit whether Little read it, whether he read little or nothing at all ...

Is this here really a kindergarten community where arguments like "my dad is stronger than yours" (aka "my dear leader read the document and you didn't") are thrown around - or do you have as well some real arguments to support the newly discovered dislike of your dear leader for the TPPA?

Why don't you do your homework, EZ?

Helen Clark, Phil Goff, David Shearer and Michael Moore are openly supporting the TPPA. Are you saying that they didn't read it? Maybe they don't understand such a complicated text? Or, perhaps, is it more likely Andrew has still no clue what he is talking about?

Maybe Andrew had to start the lolly scramble early to cover up for his pathetic TPPA performance? He just might hope all the 6 year olds (and younger) whom he promised "free" tertiary education if their parents and grandparents pay for it might get so excited that they forget his TPPA blunder?

[Daytr]

We are still waiting for the 10 bridges they promised in the Northland bi-election!


@ThomedyAdams: In response to Labour's free education policy, Simon Bridges has announced the construction of at least seven new universities. #nzpol


(he is a comedian)

[elZorro]

How do you know? Any evidence for that or just hot air?

Not that it matters, but given that Andrew had still a couple of days ago no clue how he stands related to the TPPA (remember his recent pathetic appearance on Radio New Zealand), and given that he spent the recent days in dreaming up new election bribes (right - the lolly scramble has begun - big time), do I doubt that he had the time to read it.

But as I said - it doesn't matter a bit whether Little read it, whether he read little or nothing at all ...

Is this here really a kindergarten community where arguments like "my dad is stronger than yours" (aka "my dear leader read the document and you didn't") are thrown around - or do you have as well some real arguments to support the newly discovered dislike of your dear leader for the TPPA?

Why don't you do your homework, EZ?

Helen Clark, Phil Goff, David Shearer and Michael Moore are openly supporting the TPPA. Are you saying that they didn't read it? Maybe they don't understand such a complicated text? Or, perhaps, is it more likely Andrew has still no clue what he is talking about?

Maybe Andrew had to start the lolly scramble early to cover up for his pathetic TPPA performance? He just might hope all the 6 year olds (and younger) whom he promised "free" tertiary education if their parents and grandparents pay for it might get so excited that they forget his TPPA blunder?

In his State of the Nation speech yesterday, Andrew Little said he spent part of his own summer holiday working through most of the TPPA document. Hard going he said. In other words, more than a few hours spent I'd say. Plus ongoing expert advice from people like Jane Kelsey.

http://thestandard.org.nz/andrew-little-the-working-futures-plan/

Apparently for those who were at Albert Park, Auckland, it was an inspiring speech and well delivered. I've seen another article by a journalist from the right, who reckoned the speech was delivered in Rotorua. Well it was one of those places, close enough?

[fungus pudding]

In his State of the Nation speech yesterday, Andrew Little said he spent part of his own summer holiday working through most of the TPPA document. Hard going he said. In other words, more than a few hours spent I'd say. Plus ongoing expert advice from people like Jane Kelsey.


Ahhaaahhaaahaagghaahhhaa ha ha ha ROFLMAO

[BlackPeter]

In his State of the Nation speech yesterday, Andrew Little said he spent part of his own summer holiday working through most of the TPPA document. Hard going he said. In other words, more than a few hours spent I'd say. Plus ongoing expert advice from people like Jane Kelsey.

http://thestandard.org.nz/andrew-little-the-working-futures-plan/

Apparently for those who were at Albert Park, Auckland, it was an inspiring speech and well delivered. I've seen another article by a journalist from the right, who reckoned the speech was delivered in Rotorua. Well it was one of those places, close enough?

Didn't realise that Andrew might make a good comedian ... funny story that about the short union rep in the car wash. Entertaining and helps me to understand the sad state of our unions ...

However - EZ, you did what you always do ... avoid the hard questions by changing the subject.

So again - why do you think that political and economical heavy weights like Helen Clark, Phil Goff, David Shearer and Michael Moore are wrong in their support of the TPPA, but Andrew Little (who may or may not have invested a couple of hours in flicking through several hundred pages) is right in rubbishing it?

[craic]

Just when I thought I had nothing to say, I read in the Daily Mail that the Mr Cameron, the British PM no less, has set the county at war over his decision to send his son to Collet, the Preparatory School for St. Pauls in London instead of sending him to a state school. And I look up at the picture of my grandson, in his new school uniform with the Maltese Cross on the pocket which of course is the badge of Collet. None of mine cost the State a cracker in special handouts for education and this one is exactly the same. His father went to work from the fourth form and gained his education after that out of his own pocket.

[macduffy]

Just when I thought I had nothing to say, I read in the Daily Mail that the Mr Cameron, the British PM no less, has set the county at war over his decision to send his son to Collet, the Preparatory School for St. Pauls in London instead of sending him to a state school. And I look up at the picture of my grandson, in his new school uniform with the Maltese Cross on the pocket which of course is the badge of Collet. None of mine cost the State a cracker in special handouts for education and this one is exactly the same. His father went to work from the fourth form and gained his education after that out of his own pocket.


And like me, he probably lived in a cardboard box!

;)

[Sgt Pepper]

Oh dear
Latest poll results not good for John Keys flag referendum. 61% against change, even 48% of people who identify as National supporters don't want a change.

[elZorro]

Didn't realise that Andrew might make a good comedian ... funny story that about the short union rep in the car wash. Entertaining and helps me to understand the sad state of our unions ...

However - EZ, you did what you always do ... avoid the hard questions by changing the subject.

So again - why do you think that political and economical heavy weights like Helen Clark, Phil Goff, David Shearer and Michael Moore are wrong in their support of the TPPA, but Andrew Little (who may or may not have invested a couple of hours in flicking through several hundred pages) is right in rubbishing it?

You know what BP? I think the TPPA is not a black and white issue, like most things. There will inevitably be some in the Labour camp who are happy to test TPPA out if it is ratified. But let's look at the list of names you have.

Phil Goff has a special dispensation because he helped start the NZ side of the process in 2008, with good intentions. Helen Clark was also involved of course. David Shearer doesn't have that history, and Andrew Little isn't too pleased with his remarks to the press earlier.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76410038/labour-mp-david-shearer-apologises-to-colleagues-for-breaking-ranks-on-tppa (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76410038/labour-mp-david-shearer-apologises-to-colleagues-for-breaking-ranks-on-tppa)

Mike Moore, our ambassador to the USA, seems to have been captured by the capitalists. So no surprise there.

http://itsourfuture.org.nz/call-to-censure-mike-moore-for-co-hosting-tpp-lobbying-bash/ (http://itsourfuture.org.nz/call-to-censure-mike-moore-for-co-hosting-tpp-lobbying-bash/)

And the other point is that Helen Clark has been badly misrepresented by the press over her views on the TPPA. She doesn't think we should avoid trading blocks, as long as it's a good deal. No-one asked her opinion on whether she thinks it's a good deal, and given her job, she probably can't say anything about that.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/03/breaking-helen-clark-misrepresented-on-tppa-why-groser-is-now-sucking-up-to-labour/ (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76410038/labour-mp-david-shearer-apologises-to-colleagues-for-breaking-ranks-on-tppa)


A columnist on the new Labour policy.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11579123

[Daytr]

No real surprise here Sgt Pepper. $30M up in smoke.
Nice one ShonKey.


Oh dear
Latest poll results not good for John Keys flag referendum. 61% against change, even 48% of people who identify as National supporters don't want a change.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Left vs Right adversorial politics....it's a bad system innit. It just pushes people into tribal camps and looking at everything from certain dogmatic viewpoints.

[777]

I don't think the flag issue is a left v right issue.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's funny how this government started off advertising itself as fiscally responsible and now no-one cares anymore, everyone wants to keep the economy up at all costs to avoid a housing market implosion that'll take the banks with it. Prices up 45% in four years in Auckland. No ordinary Joe Public person is going to want to see all their paper gains wiped out, even more so if they just shelled out $850,000 for a house.
Deflation is here because wage and salary growth isn't here and never will be; the legions of immigrants coming in mean that there is never enough supply shortage in the labour market.
Without wage and salary growth, there's no way prices will go up anywhere except it the over-heated housing market. With mortgages now taking up so much of people's income, there's less disposable income in any case.
Now it is just an exercise in keeping GDP growth in excess of 2% by any means necessary, including massive government spending. F*ck the future.
We are now in the same situation as China. Government intervention to keep the house of cards up. Chinese government intervention there to keep GDP at 6.8% minimum, government intervention to stop the share market there collapsing.
We have the same debt trap here as in other nations. The same bubble problem. And now China is getting much tougher on capital outflow controls as well.

[Baa_Baa]

And like me, he probably lived in a cardboard box!

;) Think that's tough, 47 of us living in cardboard box in't middle of road, father'd come home'n whip us to sleep wit' broken bottle, aye that's tough!

[Logen Ninefingers]

I don't think the flag issue is a left v right issue.

Doesn't stop people getting tribal about it. If you're calling John Key 'ShonKey', you're probably from the Left.

[craic]

No cardboard box but when we visited the London flat with umpteen antipodeans per square yard a cardboard box would have offered more space and privacy.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'd say the flag things worked, it seems people are more wont to talk about that and expend huge amounts of angst over a paltry $26 million rather than talk about the real issues facing the country. We are on the verge of deflation, we are borrowing hand over fist, dairy prices keep tanking....I thought the economy was supposed to be going great, as evidenced by house prices in Auckland up 45% in 4 years......so we are we still borrowing billions to make up for spending being well in excess of revenue?
Why is Mr Little promising everyone 3 years of free tertiary education? Is he therefore planning to keep borrowing at the same levels (or greater)?

[777]

Doesn't stop people getting tribal about it. If you're calling John Key 'ShonKey', you're probably from the Left.

I have never called John Key "ShonKey" ever. Think that is childish. And I stand just to the left of Genghis Kahn. (Tongue in cheek a bit there). But go ahead and make assumptions.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I have never called John Key "ShonKey" ever. Think that is childish. And I stand just to the left of Genghis Kahn. (Tongue in cheek a bit there). But go ahead and make assumptions.

People from the Right are calling him ShonKey(?) Someone is anyway, and I never assumed every person on the Left was doing it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Phil Goff helped out with the TPPA at the start, so he has a special dispensation to go against the decision of the Labour caucus, but David Shearer didn't so he doesn't. That's just f*cked up.
I don't think John Key is even trying anymore. He is running the country on autopilot. The middle class will never allow a change of government due to the housing bubble, too afraid of the unknowns under Labour. Labour leaders just continue with the 'shoot-own-feet-off' stuff....capital gains tax, now free tertiary education.
I personally occupy a post-politics head space. It's all tribes, flags and name calling. Both parties operate in a borrow and spend policy setting. We just follow what the other zombie economies are doing, everything's really run by central bankers.

[elZorro]

I'd say the flag things worked, it seems people are more wont to talk about that and expend huge amounts of angst over a paltry $26 million rather than talk about the real issues facing the country. We are on the verge of deflation, we are borrowing hand over fist, dairy prices keep tanking....I thought the economy was supposed to be going great, as evidenced by house prices in Auckland up 45% in 4 years......so we are we still borrowing billions to make up for spending being well in excess of revenue?
Why is Mr Little promising everyone 3 years of free tertiary education? Is he therefore planning to keep borrowing at the same levels (or greater)?

Logen, again I agree with what you're saying. Have a better look at Labour's policies, though. Remember that just a few years ago, Labour ran the country with govt surpluses every year. That's not a fluke. They were good at getting a fair rate of tax back from those who could afford it, and when it was redistributed, a lot of it came back as more taxes. Everyone was happy, if they weren't too greedy. Next time around Labour will have a Kiwibuild policy, no tax cuts because we can't afford it and don't need it, but R&D tax credits to boost manufacturing and SMEs, so they'll employ people. These I see as major affordable changes that will work, and they'll work quickly. The govt takes in over $60bill a year, so a few million here or there is not a big deal. You're right about the flag thing, it's just a distraction while National sit around and let the market do its nasty thing.

[Daytr]

Probably not actually. You don't have to be a lefty to know John Key is selling NZ down the river.


Doesn't stop people getting tribal about it. If you're calling John Key 'ShonKey', you're probably from the Left.

[elZorro]

I don't use the phrase Shonkey either. Too slick.

Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 2 February 2016 (On the flag, John Key, Nationhood)

Can the Treaty stretch to reach other cultures?

Waitangi Day looms. National day or holiday? A day to validate our national story or a day at the beach or the mall? A day of substance or a day of symbol? Some think Anzac Day is our real national day, marking, they say, our coming of age in World War I.
That war did make white New Zealanders aware Mother-Britain could get things wrong (Gallipoli and much else) and feel a bit different from home-grown Poms.

But true independence came 70 years later when the post-1945 generation displayed an unselfconscious New Zealandness in art, craft, writing, dance and music and daily life and invented a globally-unique biculturalism. Anzac Day's commemoration of defeat does not capture that national affirmation.

Last year some pushed for a day of commemoration of our 1860s civil war -- empire against iwi -- which flattened the Treaty of Waitangi's article 2 bicultural idea. John Key, who once said we didn't have a civil war, ruled out a new public holiday but did say that in theory one could be transferred. A candidate: Queen's Birthday.

No go for super-royalist Key, who thinks medieval-hangover knights and dames are of the essence of this fragment of long-dead empire.
Dames and sirs are visual and audible symbols. Many hanker for one. Key hears hankerers. He disinterred that symbol.
But, ironically, he wants to inter another symbol, the Queen's Union Jack, by changing the flag. He set up a rushed, flawed process which crowd-picked a fern, a logo you might expect on a plane or delivery van. And that fern was sketched by an expatriate who so values this country that he has spent the past seven years in Melbourne. So much for indigenous -- home-grown -- national expression: a ubiquitous fern, not a distinct native. It's a bit slick. But symbols can be slick. Substance cannot be slick.

That is demonstrated in the meandering debate over swapping a borrowed monarch for a home-grown head of state, to grow us from a practical republic into a constitutional one. Right now, even a minimalist republic by way of a plebiscite to select the Governor-General is a step too far for most. And not just here. Australia's republican Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull last week ducked when all but one of his state and territory chiefs said they wanted an Australian head of state. The modern Waitangi Day does mark substantial change: the progressive incorporation of the Treaty's bicultural idea into the exercise of power and day-to-day custom and identity. So commemorating the civil war that trampled the Treaty's bicultural idea could no more be a national day than Anzac Day can.

In some places in the outside world that bicultural idea attracts attention. For example, Australian Marcus Woolombi Waters wrote last year of an impromptu New Zealand school haka involving whites, Pasifika, Indians and Chinese (and his son) alongside Maori. He added: "In Aotearoa, presenters, no matter what colour, continually introduce and close shows in the Maori language." And, he said, "with language comes history and place". Waters was arguing, in effect, that the bicultural frame was big enough to encompass the whole nation. It has stretched to reach out to other Polynesians, once despised by Maori -- Cook Islanders were "coconuts" -- as we have transited from a far-south bit of empire to a distinct nation-in-the-making that is now of the Pacific, not just in it. But, as the proportion of people of Asian and other ethnicities grows, will that frame stretch enough to encompass them? Or it will be exclusionary?

As Mai Chen has argued, Auckland is increasingly ethnically diverse -- she says "superdiverse". Much of the rest of the country is not but that will change over time if current trends continue. Part of the political instability in the United States and Europe is that nations with monocultural value-systems found in their midst growing numbers of migrants of other cultures, initially from their former empires but increasingly seeking economic advancement or displaced by war or other severe hardship. Accommodating that diversity has become fraught. Inward migration is one of the drivers of populist and secessionist movements ranging from the far right to the far left. Is it different for us?

We have incorporated our tiny Polynesian ex-empire into the bicultural frame. But can that frame accommodate cultures other migrants bring with them any more than American and European monocultures can? The great majority of those migrants want to fit in. But many of their descendants will want and need -- just as many home-grown ex-British New Zealanders want and need -- connection to their heritage. That will enrich us -- connect us into China and India and many other cultures and their economies. But it will also challenge us.

Is the Treaty up to that challenge? Article 3 insists, on a modern reading, on full citizenship for all. Reading the Treaty that way, and not just as an empire-iwi deal, the day commemorating the Treaty is our national day.

Colin James, mobile 64-21-438 434, landline 64-4-384 7030, PO Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141, New Zealand ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000015/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000015/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

[elZorro]

Come back Amanda Bailey! John Key was just on TV1. In his comments about Labour's new tertiary education policy, John was saying that 70% of the course fees are now paid by taxpayers (don't forget that A and B bursaries used to pay for accommodation). Then the usually clever PM mentioned that why should other workers subsidise tertiary students any more than that, and the example was a waitress, usually on minimum pay.. you could see a flash of fear go across his face as he realised he'd opened up a can of worms, but luckily for him Nadine moved onto another topic, the TPPA, which he equally as glibly dispensed with. All the while beads of sweat were appearing, as he had a think about that poor example.

As if our PM has any empathy for poor waitresses. His own children can happily sail through uni or pursue arty careers if they want to, fully paid/subsidised by their father. And in any case, when do taxpayers get to choose where their money is spent? Only at election time, and there's an important one coming up in 2017.

[blackcap]

Doesn't stop people getting tribal about it. If you're calling John Key 'ShonKey', you're probably from the Left.

I dont think so. I am from the right (well normally) but I am fed up with the flag debate/change and have called HIM ShonKey on many occasions in jest with my partner etc. Does not mean that I will not vote National, probably will in the absence of another viable alternative, and the way Labour is going there is NO way I could vote for this bunch of rabble rubbish. But many in National's camp, are fed up with the flag referendum and think it is a vanity project as well.....

[fungus pudding]

Come back Amanda Bailey! John Key was just on TV1. In his comments about Labour's new tertiary education policy, John was saying that 70% of the course fees are now paid by taxpayers (don't forget that A and B bursaries used to pay for accommodation). Then the usually clever PM mentioned that why should other workers subsidise tertiary students any more than that, and the example was a waitress, usually on minimum pay.. you could see a flash of fear go across his face as he realised he'd opened up a can of worms, but luckily for him Nadine moved onto another topic, the TPPA, which he equally as glibly dispensed with. All the while beads of sweat were appearing, as he had a think about that poor example.

As if our PM has any empathy for poor waitresses. His own children can happily sail through uni or pursue arty careers if they want to, fully paid/subsidised by their father. And in any case, when do taxpayers get to choose where their money is spent? Only at election time, and there's an important one coming up in 2017.

A sad bitter man named elZorro
was consumed by his grief and his sorrow
he hated John Key
and the National partee
he'll be miserable all day tomorrow.

[blackcap]

Come back Amanda Bailey! John Key was just on TV1. In his comments about Labour's new tertiary education policy, John was saying that 70% of the course fees are now paid by taxpayers (don't forget that A and B bursaries used to pay for accommodation). Then the usually clever PM mentioned that why should other workers subsidise tertiary students any more than that, and the example was a waitress, usually on minimum pay.. you could see a flash of fear go across his face as he realised he'd opened up a can of worms, but luckily for him Nadine moved onto another topic, the TPPA, which he equally as glibly dispensed with. All the while beads of sweat were appearing, as he had a think about that poor example.

As if our PM has any empathy for poor waitresses. His own children can happily sail through uni or pursue arty careers if they want to, fully paid/subsidised by their father. And in any case, when do taxpayers get to choose where their money is spent? Only at election time, and there's an important one coming up in 2017.

I say %$^& the students. Their fees are subsidised greatly anyway and they can borrow (at no cost) the rest if they so wish to study. If free study is offered to all and sundry with no strings, well that will just get too many students into study and a lot of wastage with a lot of marginal studies being actively pursued that does not add any benefit to NZ. Why should a just out of school worker (on lower wages than a studied student) effectively subsidise someone who is going to study and increase their earning capacity? Stupid policy by Labour and just shifts the burden onto tax payers to fund marginal students lifestyles.

[elZorro]

There is a land-lord in Dunedin hood
His name is Fungus Pud
This right-wing troll sees nothing wrong
With National's bullsh*t song

[elZorro]

I say %$^& the students. Their fees are subsidised greatly anyway and they can borrow (at no cost) the rest if they so wish to study. If free study is offered to all and sundry with no strings, well that will just get too many students into study and a lot of wastage with a lot of marginal studies being actively pursued that does not add any benefit to NZ. Why should a just out of school worker (on lower wages than a studied student) effectively subsidise someone who is going to study and increase their earning capacity? Stupid policy by Labour and just shifts the burden onto tax payers to fund marginal students lifestyles.

Blackcap, you have parroted a common argument about this new policy, but it's poorly thought out. The three years tertiary study guarantee is at least partly available to anyone who hasn't had a full three years of study or training previously. I have seen people go to uni or polytech after working somewhere, they know exactly what they want to do, where they are going, and they blitz the courses. They could be of any age. And then what will they do with this new training? Probably go on to be more productive for all NZ in some way. They'll pay taxes along the way, and the extra tertiary funding will also be taxed. The govt will get at least half of the funding back immediately, in taxes, for reinvestment.

[BlackPeter]

You know what BP? I think the TPPA is not a black and white issue, like most things. There will inevitably be some in the Labour camp who are happy to test TPPA out if it is ratified. But let's look at the list of names you have.

Phil Goff has a special dispensation because he helped start the NZ side of the process in 2008, with good intentions. Helen Clark was also involved of course. David Shearer doesn't have that history, and Andrew Little isn't too pleased with his remarks to the press earlier.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76410038/labour-mp-david-shearer-apologises-to-colleagues-for-breaking-ranks-on-tppa (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76410038/labour-mp-david-shearer-apologises-to-colleagues-for-breaking-ranks-on-tppa)

Mike Moore, our ambassador to the USA, seems to have been captured by the capitalists. So no surprise there.

http://itsourfuture.org.nz/call-to-censure-mike-moore-for-co-hosting-tpp-lobbying-bash/ (http://itsourfuture.org.nz/call-to-censure-mike-moore-for-co-hosting-tpp-lobbying-bash/)

And the other point is that Helen Clark has been badly misrepresented by the press over her views on the TPPA. She doesn't think we should avoid trading blocks, as long as it's a good deal. No-one asked her opinion on whether she thinks it's a good deal, and given her job, she probably can't say anything about that.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/03/breaking-helen-clark-misrepresented-on-tppa-why-groser-is-now-sucking-up-to-labour/ (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76410038/labour-mp-david-shearer-apologises-to-colleagues-for-breaking-ranks-on-tppa)


A columnist on the new Labour policy.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11579123

Hi EZ, thanks for coming back to me. And yes, I absolutely agree - the TPPA is (as any mutually agreed contract) not black and white, but hopefully a give and take balancing the interests of everybody involved. Sounds like the US Republicans as well as a number of Democrats don't want to sign it either ... maybe they think that what has been negotiated is just too good for US business?

What I don't understand is what is happening at the moment in Labour. For sure - there should be a healthy debate about the pros and cons of the agreement inside and outside of the political parties, but what I see instead is pope Andrew telling his order what they have to believe and dishing out punishments if some of his cardinals decide to use their own grey cells to think instead of putting all their faith into pope Andrew. Mighty nice of him to give Phil Goff a dispensation, allowing at least him to use his own head to think.

Just help me to understand - is Labour a religious community following the order of their leader(s) ... or are they a political organisation worried about the best of the country?

Personally I prefer political organisations which allow their members to think for themselves, but if signing up to Labour involves giving up your own judgement, than maybe this is one of the major differences between the Liberals and the Left ...

[fungus pudding]

They'll pay taxes along the way, and the extra tertiary funding will also be taxed. The govt will get at least half of the funding back immediately, in taxes, for reinvestment.

What tosh.

[blackcap]

Blackcap, you have parroted a common argument about this new policy, but it's poorly thought out. The three years tertiary study guarantee is at least partly available to anyone who hasn't had a full three years of study or training previously. I have seen people go to uni or polytech after working somewhere, they know exactly what they want to do, where they are going, and they blitz the courses. They could be of any age. And then what will they do with this new training? Probably go on to be more productive for all NZ in some way. They'll pay taxes along the way, and the extra tertiary funding will also be taxed. The govt will get at least half of the funding back immediately, in taxes, for reinvestment.

ElZorro, there is nothing stopping them under the current system from studying if they want to do so. They can borrow (interest free and all) the costs of tuition and blitz the courses and then go on with this new training and be more productive for themselves and NZ and pay taxes and pay back the loan once they earn over a certain amount. Currently as it stands there is nothing in the way for anyone from any walk of life to get a tertiary education. Cannot have it much better than that. People that are motivated to study and be productive will do so anyway. This 3 years free study Labour is proposing will just enable the unmotivated to "waste" 3 years at the taxpayers expense getting degrees in flax weaving (to use a Bob Jones term) and other non productive studies.

[777]

Yes but flax weavers will vote Labour and that is what it is all about.

[Major von Tempsky]

There are increasing numbers of "professional students" who are cluttering up our universities etc.

You know the ones I mean, the Sue Bradford Maori studies PhDs, the ones who keep going for decades and rarely finish anything and whose choice of subjects is the reverse of practical. It allows them to be professional left wing agitators at the same time and to maximize any social welfare available.

Under Labour's scheme these will proliferate even more and choke our tertiary institutions.

[Sgt Pepper]

There are increasing numbers of "professional students" who are cluttering up our universities etc.

You know the ones I mean, the Sue Bradford Maori studies PhDs, the ones who keep going for decades and rarely finish anything and whose choice of subjects is the reverse of practical. It allows them to be professional left wing agitators at the same time and to maximize any social welfare available.

Under Labour's scheme these will proliferate even more and choke our tertiary institutions.

Major
What is your opinion on people who would chose Zoology or English Literature as subject to major in? Are they unwise and wasting taxpayers and their own money?

[Snow Leopard]

A sad bitter man named elZorro
was consumed by his grief and his sorrow
he hated John Key
and the National partee
he'll be miserable all day tomorrow.

Follows the rhythmic structure well. Good use of the word partee to maintain rhyme.


There is a land-lord in Dunedin hood
His name is Fungus Pud
This right-wing troll sees nothing wrong
With National's bullsh*t song

Being generous - it is terrible - needs a total rewrite.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Disc: Any opinions expressed in this post are purely poetry, rhyme or other limerickal arts related and do not imply any particular political bias.

[Sgt Pepper]

Major Von Tempsky states

"You know the ones I mean, the Sue Bradford Maori studies PhDs"

Sorry to rain on your parade but Sue Bradford has a Masters in Chinese and can speak Mandarin. If you think that learning Mandarin is a waste of time, John Key, who we all know is the fount of all knowledge and can do no wrong believes

"Key urges kids to learn Mandarin"

[Major von Tempsky]

Have to agree with Paper Tiger, FP's poesy is so patently superior to EZ's rough doggerel.

Sgt Pepper - Zoology and English Lit.

Well there are obviously a limited number of places in Zoos and DOC and schools/universities for zoologists and a certain number go overseas. What we really need is an authoritative pronouncement from Min of Ed and MFAT on the number of places for Zoo grads each year to be allocated out across NZ Varsities as a yearly quota. Similarly for English Lit although English Lit can always become teachers - overqualified for reporters?

I recall a true case from years ago that I laughed long and hard about, although it was really tragic. A guy qualified in English Lit and went on to do a PhD in Comparative English and American Lit 1800 to 1810. He then moaned bitterly because no-one wanted to employ him!

[Sgt Pepper]

Have to agree with Paper Tiger, FP's poesy is so patently superior to EZ's rough doggerel.

Sgt Pepper - Zoology and English Lit.

Well there are obviously a limited number of places in Zoos and DOC and schools/universities for zoologists and a certain number go overseas. What we really need is an authoritative pronouncement from Min of Ed and MFAT on the number of places for Zoo grads each year to be allocated out across NZ Varsities as a yearly quota. Similarly for English Lit although English Lit can always become teachers - overqualified for reporters?

I recall a true case from years ago that I laughed long and hard about, although it was really tragic. A guy qualified in English Lit and went on to do a PhD in Comparative English and American Lit 1800 to 1810. He then moaned bitterly because no-one wanted to employ him!

Major ,I know two Graduates whose degrees may not get your stamp of approval, if you meet them you could perhaps convey it to them personally, although I think you probably wont

Hon Bill English : Bachelor of English Literature (Victoria)
Hon Steven Joyce : Bachelor of Zoology

[777]

Well Joyce at least currently works in a zoo.

[fungus pudding]

Have to agree with Paper Tiger, FP's poesy is so patently superior to EZ's rough doggerel.



Thanks to you and Paper Tiger for your wisdom. And a wee note for elZorro:

I have no wish to gloat
but I would like you to note
That my poem was top
while yours was a flop
Von Tempsky having said
(though Paper Tiger led)
Oh - this is such fun
cos that's two to none
a real poet for sure
against an amateur.

[Major von Tempsky]

Oh Bravo! Encore! Un coup veritable FP!

(just keep it quiet you majored in English Lit eh ;-) ).

[BIRMANBOY]

While El Z. hung tightly to his sinking raft
Able seaman F.Pud did humbly laugh.
Tis not that Puds do float in water,
but simply El Z's brain is stuck in mortar.
No matter that the Pud was from Dunedin
his properties ahem, were sometimes weed in.
El Z sees salvation in his Labour
to most, clearly, a beer rational behaviour.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's all tribalism, missing the whole point.
Lefties want mass immigration because 'white people are inherently bad and racist and need other cultures to show them how to be. Multiculturalism = Utopia!! And lets open the doors and take in huge numbers of refugees as well'.
The globalists and corporatists masquerading as the Right want mass immigration in order to ensure an unending supply of cheap labour, & economic growth by importing wealthy people.
Stuff what the sheeple want, stuff the impact on our infrastructure. Any debate is quickly killed of by the PC media stooges.

The Left don't care what happens to the system or how much we borrow, they have a bloodlust for the end of 'capitalism' , capitalist which doesn't exist - it's been warped & destroyed by socialism and corporatism.
The Right don't care what happens now or how much we borrow. The rich are getting richer, everyone wants to keep their unearnt capital gains & keep the Ponzi scheme going.

Both main parties are inherently borrow & spend.
Both main want to gain power / stay in power at all costs.

[craic]

I hate to tell you this, but immigration, migration, cultural mixing has been the norm since we got down from the trees. The best example is probably now the most successful and powerful country in the world.

[elZorro]

there Was an old Plodder from Dunners
who Fawned on the Nats as top Runners
F P was his Name
telling Fibs just their Game
next Vote they will Turn in to Goners

[fungus pudding]

there Was an old Plodder from Dunners
who Fawned on the Nats as top Runners
F P was his Name
telling Fibs just their Game
next Vote they will Turn in to Goners


If you are trying to compose a limerick the rhyming pattern is AA BB A

So while I don't want to offend you, I feel it's only fair to correct your work, thus:

there Was a good fellow from Dunners
who knew that the Nats were top Runners
F P was his Name
truth was the Game
next Vote will return these stunners

[elZorro]

What tosh.

Try doing a sensible cost-benefit analysis on Labour's new tertiary policy FP, here is the tool. I think you'll find that there's likely to be a good ROI.

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjcgfeS2NjKAhUU-mMKHdO_BJsQFgggMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.treasury.govt.nz%2Fpublicatio ns%2Fguidance%2Fplanning%2Fcostbenefitanalysis%2Fc bax%2Fcba-template-oct15.doc&usg=AFQjCNGPANnNLgWJ7TxCA75iLO9cJ0O12w&sig2=iveJOAlNqlDPZlVdAOyZaA

[Logen Ninefingers]

I hate to tell you this, but immigration, migration, cultural mixing has been the norm since we got down from the trees. The best example is probably now the most successful and powerful country in the world.

The most successful country in the world? The land of the freaks & the home of the enslaved? The 2 party state, electoral colleges, awash in guns, shot by cops, a strong militia, cities going bankrupt, 19 trillion of govt debt, no clean water in Flint Michigan - thousands with lead poisoning, bail out Wall Street and forget mainstreet, gung ho 'God bless our troops' military industrial complex, drones and cruise missiles death from above, Bible Belt and bible bashing - intelligent design evangelists and religious fanatics, culturally bankrupt - soulless blockbusters, gangsta rap those bitches and ho's, war on drugs, the 1% vs millions in poverty, QE up the ying yang, politicians slaves to bankers and lobbyists, declining empire, CIA waterboarders and no WMDs.

[fungus pudding]

Try doing a sensible cost-benefit analysis on Labour's new tertiary policy FP, here is the tool. I think you'll find that there's likely to be a good ROI.

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjcgfeS2NjKAhUU-mMKHdO_BJsQFgggMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.treasury.govt.nz%2Fpublicatio ns%2Fguidance%2Fplanning%2Fcostbenefitanalysis%2Fc bax%2Fcba-template-oct15.doc&usg=AFQjCNGPANnNLgWJ7TxCA75iLO9cJ0O12w&sig2=iveJOAlNqlDPZlVdAOyZaA

Rubbish. Your claim that the govt. will get an immediate return of 50% is pure nonsense, and any claim of a satisfactory ROI is simply dreaming. You'll see a few economists analyses soon enough. Neutral ones - not the Rod Orams of the world who will tell us it's wonderful. The whole scheme would put plenty in university that should not be there. It's bad enough now. Study or academia is not for everyone. So reminiscent of Bob Jones' book, 'Degrees for everyone'. Not that it matters because loose-goose policies like this are what is keeping Labour out, so it will never come to be.

[Logen Ninefingers]

1139 people shot and killed by the police in the USA in 2015.
#sicksociety.

[fungus pudding]

1139 people shot and killed by the police in the USA in 2015.
#sicksociety.

Correct number is 377. Check it on those nine-fingers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Tribalism; silly poems and limericks mocking the other team. Politics = Sport. It's fun to adopt a team and cheer them on & boo the opposition. Both Labour and National parties are the borrow and spend party.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Correct number is 377. Check it on those nine-fingers.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-map-us-police-killings

[Logen Ninefingers]

1139 people killed by the police in the USA in 2015. Sick, sick country.

[RGR367]

1139 people killed by the police in the USA in 2015. Sick, sick country.

But it looks like they don't like a comedian making their White House the stage to just say "You're fired" too :D

[elZorro]

Tribalism; silly poems and limericks mocking the other team. Politics = Sport. It's fun to adopt a team and cheer them on & boo the opposition. Both Labour and National parties are the borrow and spend party.

Logen, I don't know how you came to lump National in with Labour. It's a long time since Roger Douglas and Treasury neoliberals took over running the country for a few years. A decade later, for nine years while Helen Clark was leader, the government repaid most of the Crown's historical debt. It was National who were braying constantly to instead pay the money back out as tax cuts.

[winner69]

I like this Bernie Sanders guy.

Little should be inspired by him. I like the idea of a tax on Wall St to provide free education.

However the billionaires and corporates will ensure Hilary will pull through. Can't have the working class getting too comfortable at the expense of the greedy money men and corporates

[craic]

I think its about time to discuss this nonsense up north where some Maori believe that they are to government or should be the government and decide international treaties before the elected representatives can move. The Treaty gave them to equality and with it the right to vote. I would like to see the PM and others have the balls to declare now that they will not be going to Waitangi this year, or any other year that it is turned into a circus by clowns.

[blackcap]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-map-us-police-killings

this bit is interesting: What is included in The Counted?
Any deaths arising directly from encounters with law enforcement. This will inevitably include, but will likely not be limited to, people who were shot, tasered and struck by police vehicles as well those who died in police custody.

Using that logic, NZ is a very very sick country as well. How many ppl die in police custody in NZ each year? I think we would be almost on a par (as a % of population) as the US.

[winner69]

I think its about time to discuss this nonsense up north where some Maori believe that they are to government or should be the government and decide international treaties before the elected representatives can move. The Treaty gave them to equality and with it the right to vote. I would like to see the PM and others have the balls to declare now that they will not be going to Waitangi this year, or any other year that it is turned into a circus by clowns.

Agree craic. It's just a nonsense.

Too much politics on NZ Day anyway. Just let the communities and families have a nice day off.

Best if John stays home - the protesters can all go to his house then

[elZorro]

I think its about time to discuss this nonsense up north where some Maori believe that they are to government or should be the government and decide international treaties before the elected representatives can move. The Treaty gave them to equality and with it the right to vote. I would like to see the PM and others have the balls to declare now that they will not be going to Waitangi this year, or any other year that it is turned into a circus by clowns.

Craic, it's the beginning of the end for National's reign when they're not invited to the marae. How embarrassing for John Key. The TPPA seems to be the crux of it. These are manufacturing jobs in NZ that are disappearing, they have an impact. Sit up and listen, National.

Raybon Kan on the tertiary policy and the TPPA, very funny.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11583666&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+3 +February+2016

[fungus pudding]

I like this Bernie Sanders guy.

Little should be inspired by him. I like the idea of a tax on Wall St to provide free education.

However the billionaires and corporates will ensure Hilary will pull through. Can't have the working class getting too comfortable at the expense of the greedy money men and corporates

What does a tax on Wall St. mean? Seems no more than a slogan to me.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The NZ Economy IS TANKING!!!! Quick, Graeme Wheeler, slash interest rates!!!! ONE TRICK PONY!!! Lets borrow billions and billions and pretend that's better than printing money!!!! The housing market must be defended at all costs!!!! Pull up the drawbridge!!!!

Central Banks run the world & the ludicrous 'red vs blue' nonsense being played out is this thread is completely intellectually dishonest. Flag's & not being invited to marae's.....absolutely pathetic. Soon we'll be following the BOJ's lead & pushing interest rates into negative territory. Our currency is on the down and down. Our farmers will be going to the wall soon, China is imposing capital controls - when will the Walls of Jericho come tumbling down?
But lets pretend any catastrophic collapse is either a) Nationals fault b) Labours fault , let's while away our time discussing flags and marae visits, lets pontificate about 'neoliberals' and ShonKeys and social justice and what not.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11583451

The ink is barely dry on Fonterra's latest farmgate milk price forecast but it is already under downward pressure after dairy prices fell for the third time in a row at this morning's GlobalDairyTrade auction, the GDT price index dropping by 7.4 per cent since the last sale in mid-January.

Whole milk powder prices - which are key to determining Fonterra's farmgate milk price, fell by 10.4 per cent to US$1,952 a tonne and their lowest point since last August's price slump. Prices for another key product - skim milk powder - dropped by 2.2 per cent to US$1792 tonne.

Fonterra last week cut its farmgate milk price forecast for the 2015/6 season to $4.15 a kg of milksolids from a previous forecast of $4.60 a kg in response to weak international prices. The average break-even point for most farmers has been estimated at $5.40 kg.

The key factors driving dairy demand are declining international oil prices which have weakened the spending power of countries reliant on oil revenues, economic uncertainty in developing economies and a slow recovery of dairy imports into China.

[craic]

el Zorro don't confuse wishful thinking with logic and reason. The end of the National Government will not happen for quite a time - long enough for the Labour circus to implode - again, as I usually does.

[winner69]

What does a tax on Wall St. mean? Seems no more than a slogan to me.

Sounds good though

Targeted at the 'greedy financial speculators who brought this great country to its knees and was bailed out by the working man and now its time for them to support the working class.......'

The Goldmans etc and hedge funds no doubt

[fungus pudding]

Sounds good though

Targeted at the 'greedy financial speculators who brought this great country to its knees and was bailed out by the working man and now its time for them to support the working class.......'

The Goldmans etc and hedge funds no doubt

It's a dopey slogan. No more than that.

[Logen Ninefingers]

One-way bet housing market: Market goes up - 'speculators' bank huge capital gains. Market crashes - 'speculators' will cry foul and want mortgage debt written off and keep their houses.
That's when you'll see massive social unrest and blood in the streets.

[fungus pudding]

One-way bet housing market: Market goes up - 'speculators' bank huge capital gains. Market crashes - 'speculators' will cry foul and want mortgage debt written off and keep their houses.
That's when you'll see massive social unrest and blood in the streets.

Cheer up Ninefingers. You're as negative as poor old eZ! At least you've got seven more fingers than those who wave at you.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Cheer up Ninefingers. You're as negative as poor old eZ! At least you've got seven more fingers than those who wave at you.

Realism is just condemned as negativity. We are conditioned to have silly Left vs Right debates where everyone is pigeon-holed in ideological boxes. Tentative little debates about flags and marae visits, name-calling, poems and limericks.
When someone says take the blinkers off and have a look at the true state of things...."ooeerr - you're being NEGATIVE".
We are all expected to keep smiling through the bull****, keep saying everything is great, spar at each other with toothpicks about nothing.

Corporate conditioning. Pike River mentality all over again. No managers spoke up and told the truth about what was going on, too afraid to lose they well paid jobs, too gutless to challenge their superiors. Corporate conditioning.
Virtually no shareholders asked what was happening despite all the signs and the repeated capital raisings. Information was there about the short-cutting. Dissenting voices were howled down. Greed and intellectual & moral cowardice reigning supreme.

[BlackPeter]

Realism is just condemned as negativity. We are conditioned to have silly Left vs Right debates where everyone is pigeon-holed in ideological boxes. Tentative little debates about flags and marae visits, name-calling, poems and limericks.
When someone says take the blinkers off and have a look at the true state of things...."ooeerr - you're being NEGATIVE".
We are all expected to keep smiling through the bull****, keep saying everything is great, spar at each other with toothpicks about nothing.

Corporate conditioning. Pike River mentality all over again. No managers spoke up and told the truth about what was going on, too afraid to lose they well paid jobs, too gutless to challenge their superiors. Corporate conditioning.
Virtually no shareholders asked what was happening despite all the signs and the repeated capital raisings. Information was there about the short-cutting. Dissenting voices were howled down. Greed and intellectual & moral cowardice reigning supreme.

Ah well, I guess so far we have only seen negativity coming from you. Just being miserable and complaining about everything did never in the past improve things ... being constructive, positive and resolving issues however does.

Just wondering - (assuming you live in NZ) you live in one of the best countries of the world: high standard of living, free and democratic system, little social & racial tensions, justice system getting it (ways) more often right than wrong, only limited over population problems and (rather) healthy environment and benign climate. If you disagree with any of these statements - just look anywhere else!

So let me ask you some question(s):
If not in NZ - where would you rather live?
Given that it is here (as you insist) so bad ... why are you not already gone wherever it is better?
Do you find as well at work and in your social circles that you are surrounded by "greed and mental & moral cowardice"?
Ever wondered, whether the problem might not be with the others?

Look, nothing human is perfect and there are lots of things we still could improve in NZ and the Western world. However - believe me - it does look much brighter, if you try to see as well the positive sides.

Ever wondered what you can do to improve the system (or at least your small circle) instead of just rubbishing everything?

[fungus pudding]

Ah well, I guess so far we have only seen negativity coming from you. Just being miserable and complaining about everything did never in the past improve things ... being constructive, positive and resolving issues however does.

Just wondering - (assuming you live in NZ) you live in one of the best countries of the world: high standard of living, free and democratic system, little social & racial tensions, justice system getting it (ways) more often right than wrong, only limited over population problems and (rather) healthy environment and benign climate. If you disagree with any of these statements - just look anywhere else!

So let me ask you some question(s):
If not in NZ - where would you rather live?
Given that it is here (as you insist) so bad ... why are you not already gone wherever it is better?
Do you find as well at work and in your social circles that you are surrounded by "greed and mental & moral cowardice"?
Ever wondered, whether the problem might not be with the others?

Look, nothing human is perfect and there are lots of things we still could improve in NZ and the Western world. However - believe me - it does look much brighter, if you try to see as well the positive sides.

Ever wondered what you can do to improve the system (or at least your small circle) instead of just rubbishing everything?

Yeah. I think we all know where the tenth finger is.

[BlackPeter]

Craic, it's the beginning of the end for National's reign when they're not invited to the marae. How embarrassing for John Key. The TPPA seems to be the crux of it. These are manufacturing jobs in NZ that are disappearing, they have an impact. Sit up and listen, National.

Raybon Kan on the tertiary policy and the TPPA, very funny.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11583666&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+3 +February+2016

So - you mean the handful of self centred and selfish trouble makers and clowns far in the North determine who is running this country? EZ, last time I looked this was still a democracy. Yes, clowns do have a vote as well, but just one as everybody else.

Wouldn't it be embarrassing for them if John Key wouldn't bother to show up? I wouldn't, despite the fact that they of course did invite him:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11583922

Your information is, as usual, more driven by wishful thinking than by reality ....

Ah - and the TPPA ... given that pope Andrew did not have the time or urge to tell us what is wrong with it (I know, we just need more faith) - here is a summary:

http://www.tppfacts.nz/

Does not sound too bad - does it? Just remind me - who in their right mind would want to oppose such an agreement for cheap political gain?

[elZorro]

TPP facts, or TPP drivel from the National Party website? You could drive a truck through most of those arguments. Do some real research BP.

[BlackPeter]

TPP facts, or TPP drivel from the National Party website? You could drive a truck through most of those arguments. Do some real research BP.

EZ - if you don't believe me, just ask David Shearer or Phil Goff. And doing research - must be now your turn ... the only thing we heard so far from Labour re the TPPA is praise (from Goff, Shearer, Clark and Moore) and baseless and generic scaremongering from pope Andrew and the left wing lot without providing any real facts or evidence - and, ah yes, that they punish their own crowd if they dare to use their brains and come to the conclusion that the TPPA is good for NZ! LOL!

Just ask Pope Andrew, maybe he will give you an audience and provides you with some reason why you should oppose the TPPA ... otherwise, just stay quiet and believe ...

[elZorro]

EZ - if you don't believe me, just ask David Shearer or Phil Goff. And doing research - must be now your turn ... the only thing we heard so far from Labour re the TPPA is praise (from Goff, Shearer, Clark and Moore) and baseless and generic scaremongering from pope Andrew and the left wing lot without providing any real facts or evidence - and, ah yes, that they punish their own crowd if they dare to use their brains and come to the conclusion that the TPPA is good for NZ! LOL!

Just ask Pope Andrew, maybe he will give you an audience and provides you with some reason why you should oppose the TPPA ... otherwise, just stay quiet and believe ...

Come on, BP. Just yesterday I quickly used the web to refute that three out of the four Labour people were steadfastly behind the TPPA as it stands, for ideological reasons. And how can any person(s) predict what the numerical result of the TPPA will be in the year 2030? National can't even predict their tax take for 2015-2016 year, or next year. But it'll probably mean they've not taken in enough taxes to meet their clamped-down expenses, yet again. Any why? because as Logen says, the country is on its knees, and it'll probably get worse. Everywhere a business person looks, it's more competitive. Newsflash - small businesses employ staff, we're not getting much help out here, and the TPPA isn't designed to help small businesses. It's there to lock in profits for large corporates with multiple brands and IP.

W69, I hope you'll have a look in at the protest tomorrow, instead of catching a ferry to Waiheke on your gold card. :)

[Daytr]

This is interesting BLACKCAP. Do you think some in the Nats camp think that its a time for change in leadership?
Get someone right if centre who actually cares about NZs long term future & not just making money for the already wealthy & you might get my vote.
I just can't think of anyone in the Nat leadership that fits that description.



I dont think so. I am from the right (well normally) but I am fed up with the flag debate/change and have called HIM ShonKey on many occasions in jest with my partner etc. Does not mean that I will not vote National, probably will in the absence of another viable alternative, and the way Labour is going there is NO way I could vote for this bunch of rabble rubbish. But many in National's camp, are fed up with the flag referendum and think it is a vanity project as well.....

[fungus pudding]

I dont think so. I am from the right (well normally) but I am fed up with the flag debate/change and have called HIM ShonKey on many occasions in jest with my partner etc. Does not mean that I will not vote National, probably will in the absence of another viable alternative, and the way Labour is going there is NO way I could vote for this bunch of rabble rubbish. But many in National's camp, are fed up with the flag referendum and think it is a vanity project as well.....

How can anyone be fed up with the flag debate? Do people keep pestering you to debate it? You don't have to engage in any discussions, read any articles. You are free to ignore it although a voting paper will hit your letterbox. I cannot believe anyone can be so intolerant that a referendum will make them 'fed up'. I'm quite sure you are not. Can't say I know anyone in National's camp as you do, but it's not about parties anyway. It's about a flag.

[BlackPeter]

Come on, BP. Just yesterday I quickly used the web to refute that three out of the four Labour people were steadfastly behind the TPPA as it stands, for ideological reasons. And how can any person(s) predict what the numerical result of the TPPA will be in the year 2030? National can't even predict their tax take for 2015-2016 year, or next year. But it'll probably mean they've not taken in enough taxes to meet their clamped-down expenses, yet again. Any why? because as Logen says, the country is on its knees, and it'll probably get worse. Everywhere a business person looks, it's more competitive. Newsflash - small businesses employ staff, we're not getting much help out here, and the TPPA isn't designed to help small businesses. It's there to lock in profits for large corporates with multiple brands and IP.

...


Just remind me EZ - did you express the same severe concerns at the time aunt Helen signed the first free trade agreement with China? Remember - she signed away New Zealand's sovereignty long before aunt Helen and Phil Goff inititated the TPPA discussions which now have been concluded by a National led government - LOL.

Or did the Labour politburo forget to activate at that time your concerns?

Look - I can't really imagine that you feel comfortable to argue here for a bunch of hypocrites, but this is something you need to make up with yourself. I prefer to discuss with people who are allowed to express their own ideas instead of just parroting the silly believes of a bunch of left wing political fundamentalists, but than - I understand that you must be afraid of censorship from pope Andrew - or did you get a dispensation from him as well?

Just tell us - are you allowed to say what you think?

What this sad episode clearly shows is that Labour is in no way ready to govern. Not sure, whether your party reached already kindergarten level ... but wait - here is an idea - they say some old people behave again like children ... maybe the same thing happened to Little's old party - it is not growing up, it is just old and getting silly?

Preparing for the 2032 elections? Not sure though they might survive long enough - what do you think?

[elZorro]

Just remind me EZ - did you express the same severe concerns at the time aunt Helen signed the first free trade agreement with China? Remember - she signed away New Zealand's sovereignty long before aunt Helen and Phil Goff inititated the TPPA discussions which now have been concluded by a National led government - LOL.

Or did the Labour politburo forget to activate at that time your concerns?

Look - I can't really imagine that you feel comfortable to argue here for a bunch of hypocrites, but this is something you need to make up with yourself. I prefer to discuss with people who are allowed to express their own ideas instead of just parroting the silly believes of a bunch of left wing political fundamentalists, but than - I understand that you must be afraid of censorship from pope Andrew - or did you get a dispensation from him as well?

Just tell us - are you allowed to say what you think?

What this sad episode clearly shows is that Labour is in no way ready to govern. Not sure, whether your party reached already kindergarten level ... but wait - here is an idea - they say some old people behave again like children ... maybe the same thing happened to Little's old party - it is not growing up, it is just old and getting silly?

Preparing for the 2032 elections? Not sure though they might survive long enough - what do you think?

BP, I think you're just baiting me for the fun of it. First, the free trade deal with China didn't sound near as onerous as the TPPA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand%E2%80%93China_Free_Trade_Agreement

As FPA predicted, it did open up our country to cheap washing machines. Now you can buy a washing machine for NZ$500, and FPA is owned by the Chinese firm Haier mostly. That was quick. Less manufacturing in Auckland in that area now, but they do have a big R&D team. Let's hope it lasts. I'm surprised about the agreed movement of people from China to NZ for work experience and training, but not the other way around. I see in the paper that since 2008, 110,000 European or American-trained PhD graduates have returned to China.. "Scientists are better paid in China than in the US or Europe, and its many modern research facilities are showered by almost limitless government funding".

Do I think Labour is full of hypocrites or left-wing political fundamentalists, no, but I did read two books critical of Labour's last term over the holidays, and they didn't always do what their speeches and policies implied.

I can say exactly what I think, but it will always be tempered by the need to show unity for Labour/Green amongst the likes of readers on this thread. Labour/Green, as a coalition, has the best chance of beating National in 2017, and this country has suffered long enough at the hand of lame self-serving politicians.

[winner69]

Lowest unemployment rate since 2009 is great news. Also pleasing that more of the young have jobs

National government no doubt taking a lt of the credit for this - must be doing a lot of good things

[elZorro]

Lowest unemployment rate since 2009 is great news. Also pleasing that more of the young have jobs

National government no doubt taking a lt of the credit for this - must be doing a lot of good things

You didn't say if you were going to the Protest, W69.

Anyway the employment situation isn't as great as all that. Looks like many of the new immigrants have found work, but others on the job seeking list have given up in similar numbers (66% of the change). There are more people classing themselves as not seeking work, in the last year. That total is now 1,154,000 people. This has helped National claim unemployment is dropping. At 5.3%, a dyslexic person could claim it's close to Labour's best of 3.5% achieved just a few years ago.

I know of one or two job sectors where Filipino workers are often being used in preference for new staff positions. Would it be so that higher wages can be paid? I doubt it.

[craic]

Must be tough on the losing side for so long elZorro, in spite of all your work. I can't help feeling that the clowns at Waitangi
will help towards the certainty that the Hon. John Key will be re-elected to govern the country for a further term.

[BlackPeter]

BP, I think you're just baiting me for the fun of it. First, the free trade deal with China didn't sound near as onerous as the TPPA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand%E2%80%93China_Free_Trade_Agreement

As FPA predicted, it did open up our country to cheap washing machines. Now you can buy a washing machine for NZ$500, and FPA is owned by the Chinese firm Haier mostly. That was quick. Less manufacturing in Auckland in that area now, but they do have a big R&D team. Let's hope it lasts. I'm surprised about the agreed movement of people from China to NZ for work experience and training, but not the other way around. I see in the paper that since 2008, 110,000 European or American-trained PhD graduates have returned to China.. "Scientists are better paid in China than in the US or Europe, and its many modern research facilities are showered by almost limitless government funding".

Do I think Labour is full of hypocrites or left-wing political fundamentalists, no, but I did read two books critical of Labour's last term over the holidays, and they didn't always do what their speeches and policies implied.

I can say exactly what I think, but it will always be tempered by the need to show unity for Labour/Green amongst the likes of readers on this thread. Labour/Green, as a coalition, has the best chance of beating National in 2017, and this country has suffered long enough at the hand of lame self-serving politicians.

Let me get this right - are you saying the Labour negotiated and signed Free trade deal with China was a mistake, because it resulted in cheaper washing machines available in NZ ... and because the Chinese managed to save FPA?

I agree with you, that the Free trade deal was one of the reasons that the prices for appliances dropped in NZ - and we all are benefiting from it.

Did NZ workers suffer from the free trade deal? Not sure - last time I fixed our FPA dishwasher (some years ago) I discovered that the frame is made in Germany, the Electronics / controls are made in Italy and the pump is made in the Czech republic. No NZ workers involved ...

So - maybe the Chinese free trade deal did cut some European jobs?

As well - FPA might have been one of the better NZ appliance makers ... but internationally they are just another mediocre producer (just read the consumer reports) - and the NZ market alone does not cut it, unless you are allowed to charge extraordinary prices in a protected market.

It somehow feels Labour wants to turn the clock back - and bring us back into the times where people had to wait months and sometimes years from ordering their appliance to delivery, where used cars had to run for eternity (because it was not possible to buy a new one), where people haven't been allowed to leave the country (well, not with money in the pocket) and where the dogfood in the supermarket shelves looked more delicious than the luncheon next to it.

Look EZ - if this is really your and your party's dream, than so be it. I think however you need to accept that the majority of New Zealanders wants to benefit from what the great and wonderful world has to offer. They want to live in the future, not in the past. They want to excel and harvest as well the rewards of their labour instead of being spoon fed by a nanny state no matter their contribution. Labours scaremongering does not cut it anymore.

As long as Labour stays in this backward looking mode do I not think that they have a chance to govern anytime soon .... which is ok with me. What is however a pity is that they even stopped to be a useful opposition. Just saying NO because the other party negotiated the deal does not support your credibility.

Who do you think will be able to lead the opposition, given Labours poor performance? Green? - hardly, they are too afraid of taking any responsibility. Must be soon silver anniversary time for them (already 21 years in opposition). NZ First? - they are fighting with Labour for the 10% of most backwards looking voters. See - this is what concerns me really - no useful opposition party left in NZ.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Ah well, I guess so far we have only seen negativity coming from you. Just being miserable and complaining about everything did never in the past improve things ... being constructive, positive and resolving issues however does.

Just wondering - (assuming you live in NZ) you live in one of the best countries of the world: high standard of living, free and democratic system, little social & racial tensions, justice system getting it (ways) more often right than wrong, only limited over population problems and (rather) healthy environment and benign climate. If you disagree with any of these statements - just look anywhere else!

So let me ask you some question(s):
If not in NZ - where would you rather live?
Given that it is here (as you insist) so bad ... why are you not already gone wherever it is better?
Do you find as well at work and in your social circles that you are surrounded by "greed and mental & moral cowardice"?
Ever wondered, whether the problem might not be with the others?

Look, nothing human is perfect and there are lots of things we still could improve in NZ and the Western world. However - believe me - it does look much brighter, if you try to see as well the positive sides.

Ever wondered what you can do to improve the system (or at least your small circle) instead of just rubbishing everything?

My essential point is that the political debate raging in this thread between Left and Right is passé and ridiculous, much larger global forces are at play and the NZ economy as mostly at the mercy of these forces.
Both main political parties promote a veneer of fiscal responsibility, and yet both will borrow and spend without any compunction. Neither political party would want a collapse in the Auckland property bubble, and will borrow and spend to ensure it is cushioned as much as possible.
Both main political parties essentially promote mass immigration & un-necessary population growth in Auckland, for reasons I detailed in earlier posts.

Me stating the above is 'negative' to you, presumably because I don't rush to embrace one of these parties & I am not buying into the (essentially negative & adversarial) political 'debate' that is apparently happening here. I am not writing goofy limericks, calling people ShonKey, getting up in arms about Marae visits etc.

How you construe what I have said to mean that I don't appreciate NZ's environment, benign climate and low population is beyond me. Regarding low population, Auckland apparently has a housing crisis and the response is to pour immigrants into the city. What on earth does recognizing the true state of things have to do with where I would prefer to live? No doubt the various indoctrinated chardonnay socialists & erstwhile corporate warriors on here don't appreciate my comments re the perilous housing market - probably sends a chill down their spine just thinking about it - and the response is to hurl derogatory abuse and suggest I don't appreciate the NZ climate. Absurd.

Yes, I do think many people around me are guilty of excessive greed and mental and moral cowardice. Ignorance seems to be bliss, and burying your head in the sand, willfully missing the point, hurling abuse & exhorting people to be 'positive' is a poor alternative to acknowledging the true state of things.

[skid]

Debate 101--First Rule--If you do not know the facts about the issue you are debating ,steer the discussion on to the more primtive emotional level

This is not directed to anyone in particular ,but its a good one to remember:)

[Daytr]

Perhaps because the process was rushed at the behest of one man.
Perhaps its because its going to cost 10s of millions & fail.
Perhaps because most people realize its a vanity project of the PM.


How can anyone be fed up with the flag debate? Do people keep pestering you to debate it? You don't have to engage in any discussions, read any articles. You are free to ignore it although a voting paper will hit your letterbox. I cannot believe anyone can be so intolerant that a referendum will make them 'fed up'. I'm quite sure you are not. Can't say I know anyone in National's camp as you do, but it's not about parties anyway. It's about a flag.

[fungus pudding]

Perhaps because the process was rushed at the behest of one man.
Perhaps its because its going to cost 10s of millions & fail.
Perhaps because most people realize its a vanity project of the PM.

Whether it is a vanity project or an attempt at raising our profile as distinct to the confusion with Australia - widely held in all parts of the planet, is subjective. I think Key has done more to raise NZs profile than any previous minister or prime minister.
It is a binding referendum so can't fail. It must produce a result. The process was not and is not being rushed.

[Logen Ninefingers]

All this hue and cry over spending $26 million on a referendum over our flag, and the Auckland City Council spends billions on stuff like a beach in Onehunga ($28 million) , which - while it looks slick - was really a bit of environmental vandalism as the existing natural beach was destroyed for the new creation.

And then you think of the eye-watering amounts of money wasted under the last Labour administration. An example was Te Wānanga o Aotearoa, including $38.7 million paid to the company of Rongo Wetere's daughter Sarah Cullen for the design of one course (Kiwi Ora) targeted at helping immigrants adapt to life in NZ.
The report into all the shenanigans that went on at the Wānanga is below:
http://www.oag.govt.nz/2005/twoa/docs/twoa.pdf

You would think that we were spending $26 billion on the flag debate. Personally I can understand why it is probably a good idea to have a flag that looks different from Australia's, but predictably the whole thing has just become a political football, now highly emotive - the two tribes are going head to head. How often do the political parties ever agree on anything???

[RGR367]

I'll give John Key's move on NOT GOING to Waitangi the Chess symbols of ??!!! (looks questionable but really a super brilliant move).

[fungus pudding]

I'll give John Key's move on NOT GOING to Waitangi the Chess symbols of ??!!! (looks questionable but really a super brilliant move).

I hope the TV channels and media reporters do likewise.

[elZorro]

I'll give John Key's move on NOT GOING to Waitangi the Chess symbols of ??!!! (looks questionable but really a super brilliant move).

Or is John Key just spineless?

[fungus pudding]

Or is John Key just spineless?


Are you the full quid?

[Sgt Pepper]

Whether it is a vanity project or an attempt at raising our profile as distinct to the confusion with Australia - widely held in all parts of the planet, is subjective. I think Key has done more to raise NZs profile than any previous minister or prime minister.
It is a binding referendum so can't fail. It must produce a result. The process was not and is not being rushed.

I am intrigued by your observation that John Key doing more to raise New Zealands profile than any other previous minister or Prime Minister. On what basis do you believe this to be the case?. Compared to David Lange he is a relatively poor public speaker Unlikely to see him debating at the Oxford Union. I think history will be relatively kind to him, in a Keith Holyoake way. He is, however, by no stretch of the imagination a conviction politician. He has been very careful to decouple any linkage between the flag referendum and our future constitutional arrangements. He desperately wants a knighthood when he does decide to go, which is unsurprising as he has a degree of vanity.

[Daytr]

I would suggest Key will be remembered more like Muldoon, but with less wit. Someone who got arrogant & overstayed his welcome. Muldoon had the luxury of an ineffective opposition under Rowling, until a charismatic leader came along in the form of Lange. Perhaps history is repeating.

[artemis]

........ I know of one or two job sectors where Filipino workers are often being used in preference for new staff positions. Would it be so that higher wages can be paid? I doubt it.

We have, and have had, many tenants from the Philippines. Without exception, they have been exemplary tenants - no rent issues, unfailingly clean, tidy and polite. If employers have had the same experience, it is not surprising if they make the same decisions we do.

[elZorro]

We have, and have had, many tenants from the Philippines. Without exception, they have been exemplary tenants - no rent issues, unfailingly clean, tidy and polite. If employers have had the same experience, it is not surprising if they make the same decisions we do.

Artemis, that's not what I was getting at. Employers know that even our relatively low minimum pay here, will be a lot higher (on paper) than the pay in their home country. It'll be a while before they realise all the other costs in NZ tend to swamp out that near minimum pay. However, employees who may have seen more rigorous working conditions overseas will probably have a better attitude in a new workplace here. The test will be if NZ employers move new immigrants up the pay scale, or simply recycle to new workers, also on low pay. I'm putting aside my concern about NZ school leavers finding jobs, at the moment, but that's another side-issue.

[blackcap]

Artemis, that's not what I was getting at. Employers know that even our relatively low minimum pay here, .

El Zorro can you please provide links for that... because I believe your statement to be a lie.

[elZorro]

El Zorro can you please provide links for that... because I believe your statement to be a lie.

Blackcap, don't be so sensitive. It's anecdotal, how can a statement like that be disproven or proven? It would be a lot of data to be collected. Employers aren't so crazy, and here I'm talking about operations that perhaps aren't wildly profitable. After they decide if a person is keen to work, has (or could be trained to have) the skills needed for the job, the next thought they have is "Can I afford to employ this person, what are they expecting?", or even better "Can I have a good worker and cheekily offer them a lower pay rate?"

I had another employer phone me up once, to ask what I was paying my staff. I gave him a rough idea. Then he said I was paying too much, I should trim it back, and I'd still get staff. No bull. This is going on all the time. I always pay staff well above the liveable wage, after all they're the guts of my business.

More about John Key and the Waitangi Day decision.

http://thestandard.org.nz/waitangi-chicken-john-plucks-off/

[craic]

Interesting to note that Lange arrived at a crossroads in his life where he had the option s of becoming a politician or a comedian - he chose the wrong option. He then had the option of staying with his wife or running off with his assistant - he made the wrong choice again. He had the same choice with his cake - keep it or eat it - he ate it, again and again. And this is your idea of the ideal example of a national leader? The "desperate" desire of John Key for a knighthood? and his vanity? Where are you getting these myths from?
I am intrigued by your observation that John Key doing more to raise New Zealands profile than any other previous minister or Prime Minister. On what basis do you believe this to be the case?. Compared to David Lange he is a relatively poor public speaker Unlikely to see him debating at the Oxford Union. I think history will be relatively kind to him, in a Keith Holyoake way. He is, however, by no stretch of the imagination a conviction politician. He has been very careful to decouple any linkage between the flag referendum and our future constitutional arrangements. He desperately wants a knighthood when he does decide to go, which is unsurprising as he has a degree of vanity.

[westerly]

El Zorro can you please provide links for that... because I believe your statement to be a lie.

Just google 'mimimum wage by country.' NZ is well down the ratings.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

Just google 'mimimum wage by country.' NZ is well down the ratings.

westerly

NZ is well up the ratings. Australia shows higher but taxes and medical levies even it out pretty much. France, Germany, Belgium, maybe a couple of others are ahead but it's silly to claim we are well down the ratings.

[iceman]

Interesting to note that Lange arrived at a crossroads in his life where he had the option s of becoming a politician or a comedian - he chose the wrong option. He then had the option of staying with his wife or running off with his assistant - he made the wrong choice again. He had the same choice with his cake - keep it or eat it - he ate it, again and again. And this is your idea of the ideal example of a national leader? The "desperate" desire of John Key for a knighthood? and his vanity? Where are you getting these myths from?

I agree with this Craig. A few posters go on and on about Key wanting knighthood, Key not finishing terms (claims made both last and current term) Judith Collins taking over soon, Key wanting to be High Commissioner or Ambassador. All of it just desperate people opposed to Key.
EZ saying the PM has no spine by deciding not going to the chaos that is at Waitangi , is simply showing no respect to the office of PM nor the police and Maori Wardens that have to protect him and other dignitaries. I did not like Helen Clark as PM but to see our PM reduced to tears at Waitangi infuriated me. Ngapuhi are a useless organisation beset with infighting and chaos. Would do better by signing a settlement with the Government and get money/assets they could put to use to help their people. But they don't care, are too silly and would just waste it. Pathetic.
Don't see the MP for Northland bothering himself with this too much though !!

And daytr saying Key is outstaying his welcome in the job. Excuse me but how is that possible for a democratically elected Leader who also has the backing of his own party, the Governing party ? I assume daytr will repeat that after Key easily wins the next election as well !

[BlackPeter]

Just google 'mimimum wage by country.' NZ is well down the ratings.

westerly

NZ is according to the CNN hit list the country with the 7th highest minimum wage in the world. And that's what you call "well down"?

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/top-10-national-minimum-wages-in-the-world/?iid=EL

[fungus pudding]

NZ is according to the CNN hit list the country with the 7th highest minimum wage in the world. And that's what you call "well down"?

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/top-10-national-minimum-wages-in-the-world/?iid=EL

I've just looked at Westerley's list where we are 'well down' (according to Westerley) We're about forth or fifth from the top.

[westerly]

NZ is according to the CNN hit list the country with the 7th highest minimum wage in the world. And that's what you call "well down"?

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/top-10-national-minimum-wages-in-the-world/?iid=EL

If you look at the OECD statistics for the real minimum wage after taxes NZ drops to 17th. Australia is still top.

Lower paid are heavily taxed in NZ by comparison with other countries. Bill has to get the money from somewhere having reduced higher tax rates.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

If you look at the OECD statistics for the real minimum wage after taxes NZ drops to 17th. Australia is still top.

Lower paid are heavily taxed in NZ by comparison with other countries. Bill has to get the money from somewhere having reduced higher tax rates.

westerly

Look at Wikipedia international currency adjusted column. We are well above 17th.More important than all this is the simple fact that neither you, or I, have ever been to a country with a better standard of living in general, including for those on minimum wage (and all the subsidies and WFF etc). So stop grizzling.

[Sgt Pepper]

Look at Wikipedia international currency adjusted column. We are well above 17th.More important than all this is the simple fact that neither you, or I, have ever been to a country with a better standard of living in general, including for those on minimum wage (and all the subsidies and WFF etc). So stop grizzling.

Norway, Singapore, Denmark, Sweden, Canada??

[craic]

Is it not ironic that the face of the TPP protest, featured on the Herald on line, is wearing a New York Yankees baseball cap and has his fist clenched in that most American symbol. His message is not there but I suspect it is "we hate (and envy) just about everything American except all the rubbish that most thinking Americans hate themselves".

[Sgt Pepper]

Interesting to note that Lange arrived at a crossroads in his life where he had the option s of becoming a politician or a comedian - he chose the wrong option. He then had the option of staying with his wife or running off with his assistant - he made the wrong choice again. He had the same choice with his cake - keep it or eat it - he ate it, again and again. And this is your idea of the ideal example of a national leader? The "desperate" desire of John Key for a knighthood? and his vanity? Where are you getting these myths from?

Do you seriously believe he would turn down a knighthood?? Prepare to be disappointed. Apparently last year it was disclosed he spent hours looking at Bill Clinton speeches, he has about as much chance of matching Bill Clintons oratorical skills as I do of getting a place in the Rio Olympics.

[westerly]

Look at Wikipedia international currency adjusted column. We are well above 17th.More important than all this is the simple fact that neither you, or I, have ever been to a country with a better standard of living in general, including for those on minimum wage (and all the subsidies and WFF etc). So stop grizzling.

Mention taxes and Fungus gets all agitated. Almost as upset as when he spots an error in punctuation.

westerly

[BlackPeter]

Norway, Singapore, Denmark, Sweden, Canada??

Sgt, would agree that many of the companies on your list have a similar or even higher standard of living than NZ does. Obviously - standard of living is sort of subjective.

However - here is an interesting observation: None of the countries you listed has a higher minimum wage than NZ - and some of them have no minimum wage at all.

Do we need more evidence that minimum wage and standard of living are either uncorrelated (or perhaps even negatively correlated)?

Unions and Labour trying to push the minimum wage into the stratosphere are not concerned about the living standard of anybody (well, maybe their own), they are just concerned about being in power (cheap election bribes) and they want to increase unemployment (unemployed people are more likely to be Labour voters - i.e. lets get more people onto the doll).

[fungus pudding]

Mention taxes and Fungus gets all agitated. Almost as upset as when he spots an error in punctuation.

westerly

Not so. Errors in punctuation don't upset me. That doesn't stop me applying my free correction and advice service which is so often needed on this forum. Not quite sure what started you up about taxes.

[craic]

I have no idea whether or not John Key would or would not accept a knighthood, nor do you but you have somehow concluded that he is hell bent on it based on nothing more than a leftist slant. And as to reading Clintons speeches, all that proves is that he is interested in self-improvement - something that the left might find helpful - those that are not firebombing ministers offices.
Do you seriously believe he would turn down a knighthood?? Prepare to be disappointed. Apparently last year it was disclosed he spent hours looking at Bill Clinton speeches, he has about as much chance of matching Bill Clintons oratorical skills as I do of getting a place in the Rio Olympics.

[winner69]

Twitterland all go on impending blowup in Labour ranks

A selection

@bryce_edwards: Hooton: “McCarten & his far-left friends are well on the way to reducing Labour to... one day be the junior partner in a Green-led Govt”

@bryce_edwards: Hooton: After Clark left, “Labour resembled a zombie bank”; “McCarten and his far-left friends saw an opportunity to be vulture investors”

@bryce_edwards: Hooton’s moderate centre of Labour: Phil Goff, David Shearer, David Parker, Stuart Nash, Clayton Cosgrove, Peeni Henare and Kelvin Davis

@bryce_edwards: Hooton: “the moderate centre of the party… plan to launch an offensive against the party’s direction in May, they have no chance of success”

@couchexprt: @bryce_edwards they should just join the Nats so we can replace them with Corbyn/Sanders mold. #fixinequality

@bryce_edwards: Hooton: “1/3 of Labour MPs are appalled by the sharp shift to the left but the entrists in the unions and local branches are in control”

@bryce_edwards: Hooton writes of “1930s French Trotskyists”, 1960-70s “subversion of the UK Labour Party by Militant Tendency”; says now in happened in NZ

[blackcap]

Blackcap, don't be so sensitive. It's anecdotal, how can a statement like that be disproven or proven? It would be a lot of data to be collected. Employers aren't so crazy, and here I'm talking about operations that perhaps aren't wildly profitable. After they decide if a person is keen to work, has (or could be trained to have) the skills needed for the job, the next thought they have is "Can I afford to employ this person, what are they expecting?", or even better "Can I have a good worker and cheekily offer them a lower pay rate?"

I had another employer phone me up once, to ask what I was paying my staff. I gave him a rough idea. Then he said I was paying too much, I should trim it back, and I'd still get staff. No bull. This is going on all the time. I always pay staff well above the liveable wage, after all they're the guts of my business.

More about John Key and the Waitangi Day decision.

http://thestandard.org.nz/waitangi-chicken-john-plucks-off/

HI ElZorro, I was not being pedantic or sensitive. If you are using such a statement to make a case or try to help your position its better not to lie about it. I see NZ are 7th or so out of all countries. That does not put us in the "relatively low minimum" wage category. Rather it places us NZ in a unique position of having nearly the highest minimum wages in the world.
Anecdote... I just had 2 cousins from Holland come on a working holiday. They could not believe how much they were being paid. In Holland the minimum wage does not kick in till you are 23, before that its graduated. Many supermarket (for use of an example) workers aged 17 are paid $7 per hour and are happy with that. No wonder my cousins (both 20) were so happy to get $14.75 and thought we NZ were crazy for legislating such largesse.

[macduffy]

No wonder my cousins (both 20) were so happy to get $14.75 and thought we NZ were crazy for legislating such largesse.

Not quite as crazy as agitating for a "living wage" - based on the needs of a wage earner with dependents - for every 20 year old living at home with his/her parents!

(Sorry to bring that one up.)

:mellow:

[elZorro]

I've just looked at Westerley's list where we are 'well down' (according to Westerley) We're about forth or fifth from the top.

I have to pick you up on this typo, FP. Forty, fourth, etc. It's a weird rule but it must be followed.

These minimum wage rankings, do they allow for costs like rent or accommodation to be factored in, or is it just using the relative strength of international currency tables?

[fungus pudding]

I have to pick you up on this typo, FP. Forty, fourth, etc. It's a weird rule but it must be followed.

These minimum wage rankings, do they allow for costs like rent or accommodation to be factored in, or is it just using the relative strength of international currency tables?

Thank-you. My mistake. As far as whether lunch money, rent, booze, travel costs etc. are included, it's a completely stupid question.

[westerly]

Sgt, would agree that many of the companies on your list have a similar or even higher standard of living than NZ does. Obviously - standard of living is sort of subjective.

However - here is an interesting observation: None of the countries you listed has a higher minimum wage than NZ - and some of them have no minimum wage at all.

Do we need more evidence that minimum wage and standard of living are either uncorrelated (or perhaps even negatively correlated)?

Unions and Labour trying to push the minimum wage into the stratosphere are not concerned about the living standard of anybody (well, maybe their own), they are just concerned about being in power (cheap election bribes) and they want to increase unemployment (unemployed people are more likely to be Labour voters - i.e. lets get more people onto the doll).

Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark do indeed have no minimum wage. However they all have strong unions and are required by law to have collective bargaining.
Something with your obvious antagonism to unions, you neglect to mention.

westerly

Your contin

[fungus pudding]

Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark do indeed have no minimum wage. However they all have strong unions and are required by law to have collective bargaining.
Something with your obvious antagonism to unions, you neglect to mention.

westerly

Your contin

There is nothing wrong with unions. There is everything wrong with compulsory unionism.

[elZorro]

Thank-you. My mistake. As far as whether lunch money, rent, booze, travel costs etc. are included, it's a completely stupid question.

FP, you're making mistakes too often, I'll have to get my red hi-lighter out soon.:)

To be clear, my implication about the minimum wage tables was that in many areas of NZ, especially Auckland, there are higher living costs than might be present relative to minimum wages in other countries. As accommodation is a necessary cost for most waged people, (and this just gets worse when a family is involved), then the metric called a 'living wage' (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-20204594)surely has some credence. Some of our food costs are also noticeably higher than in Australia, for example, even though they generally pay better wages.

The Living Wage report for NZ in 2014: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzlivingwage/pages/129/attachments/original/1434872224/Living_Wage_2014_Report.pdf?1434872224


The rate of$18.80 is therefore recommended, which involves a 2.1 percent increase of the 2013 rate of $18.40. Sitting at 73.7percent of median household income, it is closer to the poverty threshold of 60
percent of median than the median itself. A living wage would be expected to provide a household
income considerably above the poverty threshold and at the same time well below the New
Zealand household median income. It also sits at 62.4 percent of mean household income.
As noted in the previous Report, the use of national average data to set the living wage will
underestimate costs in expensive housing regions like Auckland. Regional differences like this are difficult to resolve through a wage mechanism.
They highlight the issue though, that the calculation of a living wage is strongly affected by existing
tax rates and income support entitlements such as Working for Families tax credits, Childcare
support and in this example, the Accommodation Supplement. If any of these changes, the
necessary hourly rate would change as well – either up or down.


Action Station's TPPA fact website.

http://www.tppafacts.co.nz/explore-issues/pros-cons-of-tppa/

[Daytr]

Iceman, I said that is how he will be remembered. Its my view on the future. All leaders other than Jenny Shipley and the like are democratically elected and dumped.


I agree with this Craig. A few posters go on and on about Key wanting knighthood, Key not finishing terms (claims made both last and current term) Judith Collins taking over soon, Key wanting to be High Commissioner or Ambassador. All of it just desperate people opposed to Key.
EZ saying the PM has no spine by deciding not going to the chaos that is at Waitangi , is simply showing no respect to the office of PM nor the police and Maori Wardens that have to protect him and other dignitaries. I did not like Helen Clark as PM but to see our PM reduced to tears at Waitangi infuriated me. Ngapuhi are a useless organisation beset with infighting and chaos. Would do better by signing a settlement with the Government and get money/assets they could put to use to help their people. But they don't care, are too silly and would just waste it. Pathetic.
Don't see the MP for Northland bothering himself with this too much though !!

And daytr saying Key is outstaying his welcome in the job. Excuse me but how is that possible for a democratically elected Leader who also has the backing of his own party, the Governing party ? I assume daytr will repeat that after Key easily wins the next election as well !

[Daytr]

If the current flag is retained than the whole process is a waste of 10s of millions of taxpayer money. I realize that's not a failure in National's book, that's a pass mark as their bar is set so low. However any reasonable person would see it as an abject failure.


Whether it is a vanity project or an attempt at raising our profile as distinct to the confusion with Australia - widely held in all parts of the planet, is subjective. I think Key has done more to raise NZs profile than any previous minister or prime minister.
It is a binding referendum so can't fail. It must produce a result. The process was not and is not being rushed.

[BlackPeter]

Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark do indeed have no minimum wage. However they all have strong unions and are required by law to have collective bargaining.
Something with your obvious antagonism to unions, you neglect to mention.

westerly

Your contin

westerly, just because you are politically one eyed does not mean everybody else is as well.

Unions in itself are just an instrument to allow individuals with limited bargaining power to increase this power as a collective. This is good if they correct this way an obvious and unfair imbalance of power (like during the industrialisation). It is bad, if they abuse this power to further blackmail, corruption and crime (quite the standard in some industries in Australia and the US) or if they abuse this power to ruin corporations (British rail springs to mind - forcing the company to have a fireman twiggling his thumbs on the diesel locomotive) or just look at the ugly power games in even our harbours ... unions just love to play god with the fate of corporations and don't care how many workplaces they destroy to further their own selfish course.

I don't support or oppose the idea of unions more or less than I oppose or support the idea of corporations / church groups /religions or governments ... they all started probably with a good cause, but as soon as they have too much power many of them turn ugly. They all need a tight control ... and that's all I ask for.

[RGR367]

#WaitangiDay (https://twitter.com/hashtag/WaitangiDay?src=hash) is to agitate and protest while #BobMarleyBirthday (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BobMarleyBirthday?src=hash) is to smoke pot and somehow levitate. Same day but take your pick :p

[Major von Tempsky]

Good article by Martin von Beynen re TPPA in today's paper (Press/Dom).

[fungus pudding]

Good article by Martin von Beynen re TPPA in today's paper (Press/Dom).

Could you post the url or at least give us the heading please.

[Sgt Pepper]

Good article by Martin von Beynen re TPPA in today's paper (Press/Dom).

Listening to some of the protestors one has the feeling that many would not be able to explain what the letters TPPA actually stand for, or am I being unkind? personally I , and many others are rather tired of the annual tedious bitching session that Waitangi Day has evolved into. Just my opinion.

[fungus pudding]

Good article by Martin von Beynen re TPPA in today's paper (Press/Dom).

This seems to be the one The Major means. Found it in Christchurch press.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76568261/what-do-we-have-to-fear-from-the-tppa

[Daytr]

I fail to see what is good about the article. "trust the experts" ! That's great journalism there.
And the group he names that are anti is reason enough to think it must be a good deal.
Another Pulitzer there. Apparently the ABs are fantastic when they are in their jocks in the changing room exchanging dodgy handshakes with Key.
But how dare some of them have an opinion that doesn't fit with Key's fantasy.

[Daytr]

As someone that has been to the Waitangi celebrations in recent years, don't always believe what the media beefs up.
Its actually a very cool day to witness.
This year obviously its a bit more contentious than some others due to the TPPA signing.
Honestly what was Key thinking, timing the signing at the same time as Waitangi? Oh yeah he wasn't, it as about his ego again & making a big splash.


Listening to some of the protestors one has the feeling that many would not be able to explain what the letters TPPA actually stand for, or am I being unkind? personally I , and many others are rather tired of the annual tedious bitching session that Waitangi Day has evolved into. Just my opinion.

[fungus pudding]

As someone that has been to the Waitangi celebrations in recent years, don't always believe what the media beefs up.
Its actually a very cool day to witness.
This year obviously its a bit more contentious than some others due to the TPPA signing.
Honestly what was Key thinking, timing the signing at the same time as Waitangi? Oh yeah he wasn't, it as about his ego again & making a big splash.

It would have made no difference whatever day of the year the TPPA was signed. That ignorant bunch of rif-raf would have found something to stir about. They never fail.

[Daytr]

Who are you exactly calling ignorant & rif-raf?


It would have made no difference whatever day of the year the TPPA was signed. That ignorant bunch of rif-raf would have found something to stir about. They never fail.

[fungus pudding]

Who are you exactly calling ignorant & rif-raf?

I'm sorry, but I don't know the names of the rif-raf, but for a start the fellow on TV who had a tattoo where his face used to be, threatening the P.M.

[Daytr]

It came across as a racist generalization FP.
Have you ever been to Waitangi on the day?

[fungus pudding]

It came across as a racist generalization FP.
Have you ever been to Waitangi on the day?

No. Haven't been on Waitangi day. Not interested in going. Not sure what was racist. If you are referring to my mention of tattooed faces, then that identifies some as Maoris, but to mention tattoos is hardly racist.

[iceman]

It came across as a racist generalization FP.
Have you ever been to Waitangi on the day?

Each to their own. I can not understand how FP's comment could be taken as racist. He was referring to the protesters in general

[Daytr]

Nope, it was more your generalist mention of ignorant rif-raf. And yes the comment about the traditional facial tattoo or moko. "where his face used to be" Many pacific islanders tattoo their waste, buttocks & legs, Māori tattooed their face.
I think we are seeing an insight into the real FP.

Living in Northland you get to mix with Māori a lot and get to understand what a generous & beautiful culture they have.

[Daytr]

And FP its a shame you don't want to go to Waitangi on the day as perhaps you would see what it s really about rather than judging it from a two minute clip on the news. I saw Key arrive two years ago and I saw how the local elders looked after him and ensured he was respected as a honorary guest. Sure there are protests & there is nothing wrong with that & some years a lot more intense than others. Otherwise it's quite a festive atmosphere with the massive wakas, kapa haka & music & food.

[iceman]

I thought David Seymours article in the Sunday Star Times today about Waitangi Day is interesting and probably how most Kiwis feel. Loved his suggestion that the Christchurch nurse probably imported the dildo she threw at Joyce, under Labour's NZ-China FTA :-)

[Daytr]

You are probably right Iceman, but its unfortunate that Waitangi is judged by a two minute news clip that only shows the controversy.
And most Kiwi's haven't actually been there to experience what its really about.

[Daytr]

Actually I just saw the Prime news headlines round up stating that Waitangi Day had a festive atmosphere.
Obviously something sinister there... ;-)

[craic]

I sat with a group of people of mixed races on Saturday and the consensus, regardless or race or political leaning, was that The performance at Waitangi was a disgrace and a complete turn-off for most people including Maori. The commentator who suggested in the Herald that it did more to bolster support for the TPP agreement than anything else is right.

[Daytr]

What performance? The one off individual that threw a dido? You are speaking for Māori now ?! LOL


I sat with a group of people of mixed races on Saturday and the consensus, regardless or race or political leaning, was that The performance at Waitangi was a disgrace and a complete turn-off for most people including Maori. The commentator who suggested in the Herald that it did more to bolster support for the TPP agreement than anything else is right.

[westerly]

westerly, just because you are politically one eyed does not mean everybody else is as well.

Unions in itself are just an instrument to allow individuals with limited bargaining power to increase this power as a collective. This is good if they correct this way an obvious and unfair imbalance of power (like during the industrialisation). It is bad, if they abuse this power to further blackmail, corruption and crime (quite the standard in some industries in Australia and the US) or if they abuse this power to ruin corporations (British rail springs to mind - forcing the company to have a fireman twiggling his thumbs on the diesel locomotive) or just look at the ugly power games in even our harbours ... unions just love to play god with the fate of corporations and don't care how many workplaces they destroy to further their own selfish course.

I don't support or oppose the idea of unions more or less than I oppose or support the idea of corporations / church groups /religions or governments ... they all started probably with a good cause, but as soon as they have too much power many of them turn ugly. They all need a tight control ... and that's all I ask for.

Your rhetoric is rather amusing at times. I am politically one eyed but you are not?
I neither support Labour or National but will decide at the next election who I will vote for. (a swinging voter) I think National are implementing policies that reflect the further right side of the party while appearing to be more centrist. Labour are in a difficult position in that they have been under continual attack (dirty politics) by activists from the right side of the political spectrum making it hard for any leader to cement his position. Your continual snide comments (pope Little, Aunt Helen, etc) do little to advance your arguments.
As for unions, it is ok to have Federated Farmers, Chambers of Commerce, Employers & Manufacturers Assoc. and other lobby groups but not for workers to counteract these influential lobby groups,
Corporations of course are paragons of virtue. Volkswagon. Goldman Sachs, ( near $20 billion in fines) spring to mind, not forgetting our own Air NZ partially Govt. owned and fined $7.5 million for price fixing, and the local finance coy. debacle. By comparison NZ unions do well.

“And they all need tight control and thats all I ask for“ Yeah, but not with your tax dollars.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

You are probably right Iceman, but its unfortunate that Waitangi is judged by a two minute news clip that only shows the controversy.
And most Kiwi's haven't actually been there to experience what its really about.

Most kiwis (plural - non possessive, does not require an apostrophe, but it's - a contraction of it is does: no need to thank me for the lesson even though I know you will want to) don't live anywhere near the place.

[Daytr]

You remind me of half my teachers at school, they put me to sleep as well.


Most kiwis (plural - non possessive, does not require an apostrophe, but it's - a contraction of it is does: no need to thank me for the lesson even though I know you will want to) don't live anywhere near the place.

[fungus pudding]

You remind me of half my teachers at school, they put me to sleep as well.

Obviously.