If National wins ...

[RGR367]

............

Speaking of blowhards, even Cameron Slater is not going to support National now.. this is the start of the exodus of party funding and enthusiasm Bill is known for

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/12/collins-withdraws-bully-bill-gets-pm/ (http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/12/collins-withdraws-bully-bill-gets-pm/)


Ahh, the whaleoil site or better be called a trumping blogsite. The stink coming from that site is as obnoxious as a decaying whale size of a dump left rotting on an unflushed office toilet. Read it only with a virtual mask on.
But I for one could accept Paula now that Amy is completely out of the big picture.

[fungus pudding]

Ahh, the whaleoil site or better be called a trumping blogsite. The stink coming from that site is as obnoxious as a decaying whale size of a dump left rotting on an unflushed office toilet. Read it only with a virtual mask on.
But I for one could accept Paula now that Amy is completely out of the big picture.

Yes. She's a great choice with a winning personality. I certainly hope to see Amy Adams elevated in the party. Would be great Minister of Tourism which will be challenging following Key in that portfolio.

[craic]

Trump is hardly the standard we should use, not just for language, but for anything at all. He's a loose canon in every way. However you'll find bigly in most dictionaries, so he's not always wrong.
A loose canon can cover you with ink, quite bigly if you are unlucky. A loose cannon can sink a ship in a storm.

[elZorro]

A loose canon can cover you with ink, quite bigly if you are unlucky. A loose cannon can sink a ship in a storm.

Yes, my point exactly, Craic. If we are to solve the current parliamentary crisis caused by having a PM appointed by a small caucus of MPs, forum users should at least pay attention to spelling, first. Since FP is dropping the ball in this area, it's up to us to keep The Standard high!

[fungus pudding]

Yes, my point exactly, Craic. If we are to solve the current parliamentary crisis caused by having a PM appointed by a small caucus of MPs, forum users should at least pay attention to spelling, first. Since FP is dropping the ball in this area, it's up to us to keep The Standard high!

I agree. Could you please point to my error in order for me to learn.

[blackcap]

If we are to solve the current parliamentary crisis caused by having a PM appointed by a small caucus of MPs,

Are you serious? A parliamentary crisis? Don't know what you are on about there El Zorro.

[fungus pudding]

Are you serious? A parliamentary crisis? Don't know what you are on about there El Zorro.

Take no notice. That's just eZ's paranoia kicking in.

[iceman]

Are you serious? A parliamentary crisis? Don't know what you are on about there El Zorro.

What a crackup EZ can be sometimes !! Don't know how many "crises" he has seen in the last couple of years, manufacturing, Dotcom, Dirty Politics, ponytails, you name it. Now apparently a parliamentary crises as we go through the smoothest ever transition from one PM to another :-)

[Baa_Baa]

... it's up to us to keep The Standard high!

Grammar along with spelling is important too, for meaning to be conveyed correctly.

Do you mean:

a) The Standard
b) the standard
c) standards

[elZorro]

You know I can't resist a bit of rebuttal when the progressives/lefties finally get a bit of good news:). I'm probably not objective enough, but I don't see too much real organisational talent in behind the gap left by John Key's salesmanship. Was he really little better than a good salesman? Sounds like Joyce and English were the main architects behind (what is counted as) National's policies during the last three terms. In 2014, there were no new policies to speak of. National in cruise mode.

For your edification, FP, the small typos we picked up on were canon when you meant cannon, and liming when you meant timing. Only amusing because you were correcting us on our mistakes...cheers.

[fungus pudding]

What a crackup EZ can be sometimes !! Don't know how many "crises" he has seen in the last couple of years, manufacturing, Dotcom, Dirty Politics, ponytails, you name it. Now apparently a parliamentary crises as we go through the smoothest ever transition from one PM to another :-)

Do not overlook the real coronary risk: iPredict - a betting site, which for God knows what imaginary reason seems to jet-propel itself right up his nose.

[artemis]

Ahh, the whaleoil site or better be called a trumping blogsite. The stink coming from that site is as obnoxious as a decaying whale size of a dump left rotting on an unflushed office toilet. Read it only with a virtual mask on.
But I for one could accept Paula now that Amy is completely out of the big picture.

Suspect you may not have been there for a while. It is very strictly moderated. Though nobody is going to their grave wondering what Mr Slater's opinion is.

Since it is the most read NZ blog by a country mile I don't suppose they are too bothered if people prefer the ever diminishing mainstream media for their news.

[Sgt Pepper]

Suspect you may not have been there for a while. It is very strictly moderated. Though nobody is going to their grave wondering what Mr Slater's opinion is.

Since it is the most read NZ blog by a country mile I don't suppose they are too bothered if people prefer the ever diminishing mainstream media for their news.

I have just perused the Whale Oil blog and read the article and readers comments on the selection process to elect the Leader and Deputy of the National Party.

If even half of this is true than this is deeply disturbing for a governing party to be threatening Electorate and List MPs that their future selection/list rankings are in jeopardy should they not vote for Bill English and his preferred deputy candidate. Of even more concern is the allegation that appointed scrutineer would disclose errant voters to Bill English. I never realised he, and Hekia Parata were such admirers of Kim Jung Un.

[elZorro]

Do not overlook the real coronary risk: iPredict - a betting site, which for God knows what imaginary reason seems to jet-propel itself right up his nose.

Maybe I lost a bit of dough on there..and it was rigged anyway.

[GTM 3442]

? . . If we are to solve the current parliamentary crisis caused by having a PM appointed by a small caucus of MPs. . .

And there was me thinking that they were just following the precedent set by the Labour Party after Mister Kirk died.

[fungus pudding]

I have just perused the Whale Oil blog and read the article and readers comments on the selection process to elect the Leader and Deputy of the National Party.

If even half of this is true than this is deeply disturbing for a governing party to be threatening Electorate and List MPs that their future selection/list rankings are in jeopardy should they not vote for Bill English and his preferred deputy candidate. Of even more concern is the allegation that appointed scrutineer would disclose errant voters to Bill English. I never realised he, and Hekia Parata were such admirers of Kim Jung Un.

I've heard he threatens then with either waterboarding. public hanging. or forcing them to listen to a 10 minute recording of an Andrew Little speech.

[elZorro]

And there was me thinking that they were just following the precedent set by the Labour Party after Mister Kirk died.

I'll admit I'm stirring a bit, but the point is Norman Kirk tragically died in office. He didn't decide to break the contract to be NZ's PM for the full term. In the light of day, John Key did break the contract with voters, mostly for his own benefit. In the process he sabotaged National's chances in 2017. At the very least we're now seeing National scrabbling around for a deputy PM, the choice being another white male who appears ineffective and a bit of a poser, and Paula Bennett, who we all know is going to keep on making massive gaffes in public.

National and Labour are now more evenly matched. I'm not sure how hard Bill English listens to Crosby-Textor consultants, but his speeches are fairly boring too. Andrew Little has the excuse that he's warming up.

[Sgt Pepper]

I've heard he threatens then with either waterboarding. public hanging. or forcing them to listen to a 10 minute recording of an Andrew Little speech.

Oh I see. Its all fun and jolly as long as National is engaging in this.I am not so sure those National MPs thought it was so funny being threatened with non selection. But outrage if Labour or the Greens display such behaviour. Double standards me thinks FP. Yes the perfidiousness of some on the right never fails to astound.

[winner69]

That Key guy was pretty good

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11763876

[blackcap]

In the light of day, John Key did break the contract with voters, mostly for his own benefit.p.

That argument does not wash with me and its just nit picking El Zorro. What about Goff, Shearer just a couple that spring to mind.....

[BlackPeter]

...

In the light of day, John Key did break the contract with voters, mostly for his own benefit.

...


EZ - you are accusing John Key of breaking a contract. Could you just clarify what contract (and which clause) you are talking about?

I am not aware of a contract saying that any candidate for public office is required to sit the job out to the glorious end. Whats more - if any such contract would exists, than I am wondering how the Labour party (who asks government politicians regularly to resign) could ask government officials to break a contract (your words). Is Labour regularly inciting contract breaches?

Obviously - you know exactly that John Key is just doing what every politician is entitled to. You are just envious that he is leaving on a High, while any Labour Leader I can remember left so far on a Low.

[fungus pudding]

Oh I see. Its all fun and jolly as long as National is engaging in this.I am not so sure those National MPs thought it was so funny being threatened with non selection.

What sheer nonsense. It's pure guesswork on your behalf, and although it's probable that some appointments may have been discussed or offered, that would be perfectly normal in negotiations, and hardly amounts to 'threatening MPs'. You're being silly.

[fungus pudding]

For your edification, FP, the small typos we picked up on were canon when you meant cannon, and liming when you meant timing. Only amusing because you were correcting us on our mistakes...cheers.

Thanks for pointing that out. You are quite right with canon. Not sure what got into me there. But I cannot find any instance where I typed 'liming' for 'timing'.

[Sgt Pepper]

What sheer nonsense. It's pure guesswork on your behalf, and although it's probable that some appointments may have been discussed or offered, that would be perfectly normal in negotiations, and hardly amounts to 'threatening MPs'. You're being silly.

No
Go and read the Whaleoil article.

[fungus pudding]

No
Go and read the Whaleoil article.

No thanks. I'm not interested in anything that porcine ignoramous says or writes. Judge Bennett after some time in the role. I think she'll be extremely popular.

[elZorro]

No thanks. I'm not interested in anything that porcine ignoramous says or writes. Judge Bennett after some time in the role. I think she'll be extremely popular.

That 'porcine ignoramus' has the inside gen on what's happening sometimes. I suppose you used the same excuse to not read "Dirty Politics". Even though it was written by a skilled and honest writer. Judge Bennett?? Surely we should reserve such positions for people who have some real intellect? This is going to be highly amusing.

By the way, your liming mistake was here:

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?8606-If-National-wins&p=647148&viewfull=1#post647148

I'm very disturbed to find that the letter "l" is quite some distance on the qwerty keyboard from "t". If you are a two-finger typist like me, you have a problem.

[fungus pudding]

That 'porcine ignoramus' has the inside gen on what's happening sometimes. I suppose you used the same excuse to not read "Dirty Politics". Even though it was written by a skilled and honest writer. Judge Bennett?? Surely we should reserve such positions for people who have some real intellect? This is going to be highly amusing.

By the way, your liming mistake was here:

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?8606-If-National-wins&p=647148&viewfull=1#post647148

I'm very disturbed to find that the letter "l" is quite some distance on the qwerty keyboard from "t". If you are a two-finger typist like me, you have a problem.
Judge Bennett was a suggestion, not a title. I admit to some difficulty with keyboard on my ohone. Possibly why I put I instead of t. Also they can 'correct' themselves all wrong.

[elZorro]

Judge Bennett was a suggestion, not an title. I admit to some difficulty with keyboard on my ohone. Possibly why I put I instead of t. Also they can 'correct' themselves all wrong.

Can I humbly suggest that in view of your probable age, eyesight restrictions and other factors, you should do as I do, and eschew mobile phones for anything other than emergency phone calls and occasional texts? Send us a picture of your ohone. It must be a new brand.

[elZorro]

That Key guy was pretty good

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11763876

Audrey Young is generally fairly keen on helping along National's chances, she did it just before the 2014 election , in the Herald. She does start the recent article by saying that John Key had no vision and no legacy, but did well anyway. Somewhere in there she implied that John Key had a high EQ. Then why did he hound a café worker until she went public out of desperation? Surely those two things are mutually exclusive? Who to believe, huh?

[fungus pudding]

Can I humbly suggest that in view of your probable age, eyesight restrictions and other factors, you should do as I do, and eschew mobile phones for anything other than emergency phone calls and occasional texts? Send us a picture of your ohone. It must be a new brand.

No point in paying stupid money for a smart phone and not pretending you need it - hence it's a requirement to destroy what is remaining of the eyesight 'gritting your money's worth'. Original reply was from my phone, which explains ohone for phone.

[elZorro]

No point in paying stupid money for a smart phone and not pretending you need it - hence it's a requirement to destroy what is remaining of the eyesight 'gritting your money's worth'. Original reply was from my phone, which explains ohone for phone.

Well, you now have a good excuse for the occasional typo. Apparently you can read books on your phone with a suitable app, try reading Dirty Politics if you can get hold of it, and let us know if you have any new opinion on Judith Collins?

[elZorro]

EZ - you are accusing John Key of breaking a contract. Could you just clarify what contract (and which clause) you are talking about?

I am not aware of a contract saying that any candidate for public office is required to sit the job out to the glorious end. Whats more - if any such contract would exists, than I am wondering how the Labour party (who asks government politicians regularly to resign) could ask government officials to break a contract (your words). Is Labour regularly inciting contract breaches?

Obviously - you know exactly that John Key is just doing what every politician is entitled to. You are just envious that he is leaving on a High, while any Labour Leader I can remember left so far on a Low.

It's an unwritten contract that is expected of the incumbent PM, that unless they do something terribly wrong, are deposed, pass away or are very ill, they are there for the rest of the term. John just up and left - while he was still well ahead in the polls, and with no really brilliant option for a new National leader or deputy. As recently as the start of this year, he was still keen. The opposition always calls for the incumbent to resign, that's normal, but no-one expects it to happen.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76203309/john-key-ill-stay-prime-minister-as-long-as-new-zealand-wants-me

2015: looking for a new leader, Bennett? (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71334525/life-after-john-key--should-national-start-planning-now)

[fungus pudding]

Well, you now have a good excuse for the occasional typo. Apparently you can read books on your phone with a suitable app, try reading Dirty Politics if you can get hold of it, and let us know if you have any new opinion on Judith Collins?

No thanks. Nicky Hagar or whatever his name is, is a despicable creep and his opinion of Collins would not change mine. I do not like her and would not vote National if she was top dog. Just as I wouldn't vote Labour under its current leader.

[777]

It's an unwritten contract that is expected of the incumbent PM, that unless they do something terribly wrong, are deposed, pass away or are very ill, they are there for the rest of the term. John just up and left - while he was still well ahead in the polls, and with no really brilliant option for a new National leader or deputy. As recently as the start of this year, he was still keen. The opposition always calls for the incumbent to resign, that's normal, but no-one expects it to happen.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76203309/john-key-ill-stay-prime-minister-as-long-as-new-zealand-wants-me

2015: looking for a new leader, Bennett? (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71334525/life-after-john-key--should-national-start-planning-now)


Unwritten contract. On which planet?

Such dribble. There were options for replacement and the change carried out with little drama. That must surely disappoint you but live with it.

[fungus pudding]

Unwritten contract. On which planet?

Such dribble. There were options for replacement and the change carried out with little drama. That must surely disappoint you but live with it.

eZ being a supporter of the party with the big - Little problem, would obviously rather Key had announced the week before the general election that he was resigning. Mind you it wouldn't have mattered if Little was still leader. Thre risk is that they might have come to their senses and put Nash in.

[elZorro]

No thanks. Nicky Hagar or whatever his name is, is a despicable creep and his opinion of Collins would not change mine. I do not like her and would not vote National if she was top dog. Just as I wouldn't vote Labour under its current leader.

If you can't spell his name, you haven't done much research before denigrating him. Nicky Hager is a forensic, technical, political writer with an MSc. You would also need to read his books before spouting off on something you don't want to know anything about. Some National staffers, National Party members and some MPs were crooked, they were found out in their emails, this followed on from general directions and advice given by Crosby-Textor, their strategy advisors for the last 12 years. There is no proof of that, it just lines up. They for certain knew what was going on, and they didn't stop it. Neither did John Key.

[GTM 3442]

? . . the point is Norman Kirk tragically died in office. He didn't decide to break the contract to be NZ's PM for the full term. . .

I do believe you're being disingenuous, elZorro.

Your point was that a small caucus of National party MPs appointed the PM, and that that was a bad thing.

My point was that after Mister Kirk died, a small caucus of Labour Party MPs appointed the PM.

I fail to see how one small caucus of MPs appointing a PM differs from another small caucus of MPs appointing a PM.

[GTM 3442]

No thanks. Nicky Hagar or whatever his name is, is a despicable creep and his opinion of Collins would not change mine. I do not like her and would not vote National if she was top dog. Just as I wouldn't vote Labour under its current leader.

Fungus, there are times in politics when you just have to hold your nose, swallow the rat, and follow your principles.

Unpalatable though those things may be.

[iceman]

It will be interesting to see how far English/Bennett will go today with the new lineup. Obviously the housing portfolio will be needing a major shakeup with the new PM and Deputy being 2 of 3 housing Ministers currently. This should be a big one and Nick Smith probably gone.
McCully out replaced by Coleman ? Would that leave Health to Adams or maybe Collins ? Bridges taking over as no 3 from Brownlee and replacing Joyce at Economic Development ! Nikki Kaye into Education with Parata joining Key on the backbenches.
All pure speculation but I think and hope we will see quite a refreshed frontbench by nightfall.

[elZorro]

It will be interesting to see how far English/Bennett will go today with the new lineup. Obviously the housing portfolio will be needing a major shakeup with the new PM and Deputy being 2 of 3 housing Ministers currently. This should be a big one and Nick Smith probably gone.
McCully out replaced by Coleman ? Would that leave Health to Adams or maybe Collins ? Bridges taking over as no 3 from Brownlee and replacing Joyce at Economic Development ! Nikki Kaye into Education with Parata joining Key on the backbenches.
All pure speculation but I think and hope we will see quite a refreshed frontbench by nightfall.

Sounds to me like some National voters have actually been a bit embarrassed about some of their cabinet MPs.. we're hearing it all now.

[iceman]

Sounds to me like some National voters have actually been a bit embarrassed about some of their cabinet MPs.. we're hearing it all now.

I think most of them have done a fairly decent job. But a new Leader should stamp his mark on it.

[fungus pudding]

I think most of them have done a fairly decent job. But a new Leader should stamp his mark on it.

Correct. New broom has to prove it can sweep I'd like to see Amy Adams take a big leap up,
then there's Chris Bishop. The trouble for English is who to leave out with so much talent available. I can think of another party that would struggle wondering who they could put in.
Probably a good time to give David Seymour a portfolio to strengthen their coalition partner, although he has previously declined the offer.
Someone will have a tough job following Key as minister of tourism. Amy Adams perhaps? Maggie Barry? Paul Goldsmith? No doubt eZ will help me out here.

[elZorro]

Correct. New broom has to prove it can sweep I'd like to see Amy Adams take a big leap up,
then there's Chris Bishop. The trouble for English is who to leave out with so much talent available. I can think of another party that would struggle wondering who they could put in.
Probably a good time to give David Seymour a portfolio to strengthen their coalition partner, although he has previously declined the offer.
Someone will have a tough job following Key as minister of tourism. Amy Adams perhaps? Maggie Barry? Paul Goldsmith? No doubt eZ will help me out here.

I've seen John Key 'opening' a tourism venture, of course long after all the hard work had been done, and while his speech to a few onlookers was OK, the main reason for him being there was so the TV crew could bail him up outside and he could blather on about other issues of importance. I've no doubt that tourism is mostly fired along by the hard work of the business owners, it would be a feel-good portfolio that any minister would enjoy.

Bill English won't be moving into premier House at the moment. (http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/new-pm-bill-english-wont-live-in-premier-house-2016121213) Wise choice, it would be a lot of upheaval to move from Karori and into another place for just a few months. It's almost an admission that he doesn't expect to win the next election. Is that another reason for John Key to step down - to at least give hardworking Bill a taste of being PM, even if he is normally unelectable?

In a gift that will keep on giving, Paula Bennett was up against Jack Tame again this morning on TV1, and you could see from her wide eyes that she was being careful with every word. Of course when tackled about poverty and what the govt is doing about it, her answer was that it's so very complex, what with all the intergenerational things like drugs, alcohol abuse etc.

It was nothing to do with well paid jobs, that's going perfectly OK?

National Party supporters should be ashamed of this govt.

[dobby41]

Jack Tame does a good interview.
Other look like they are asking agreed questions - Jack puts them on the spot.

[BlackPeter]

I've seen John Key 'opening' a tourism venture, of course long after all the hard work had been done, and while his speech to a few onlookers was OK, the main reason for him being there was so the TV crew could bail him up outside and he could blather on about other issues of importance. I've no doubt that tourism is mostly fired along by the hard work of the business owners, it would be a feel-good portfolio that any minister would enjoy.

Bill English won't be moving into premier House at the moment. (http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/new-pm-bill-english-wont-live-in-premier-house-2016121213) Wise choice, it would be a lot of upheaval to move from Karori and into another place for just a few months. It's almost an admission that he doesn't expect to win the next election. Is that another reason for John Key to step down - to at least give hardworking Bill a taste of being PM, even if he is normally unelectable?

In a gift that will keep on giving, Paula Bennett was up against Jack Tame again this morning on TV1, and you could see from her wide eyes that she was being careful with every word. Of course when tackled about poverty and what the govt is doing about it, her answer was that it's so very complex, what with all the intergenerational things like drugs, alcohol abuse etc.

It was nothing to do with well paid jobs, that's going perfectly OK?

National Party supporters should be ashamed of this govt.

Oh dear, EZ, is this is the best you can offer? Mr. Little is not even capable to administer an effective opposition and you nag about that the new PM wants to stay in his family home ...? And you comment on Paula Bennett - for sure it is the populists of this world who have simple answers (which however never solve the problems). I am glad that Paula Bennett realises that solving poverty is a bit more complex than throwing money at poor people. There normally is a reason they are poor - and these reasons might be complex to resolve.

If anybody has a reason to be ashamed of, than it should be Labour and Green supporters about the inept opposition NZ had to endure already for the last eight years or so.

[dobby41]

that the new PM wants to stay in his family home ...?

I agree that it is hardly a problem.
But it isn't his 'family home' is it?
Isn't this the one he was claiming the allowance for when the allowance rort blew up?

[fungus pudding]

I agree that it is hardly a problem.
But it isn't his 'family home' is it?
Isn't this the one he was claiming the allowance for when the allowance rort blew up?

There was no rort. Everything he did was within the rules. Even though there was no fault on his part he repaid the money he had rightfully claimed and made no further claims.

[BlackPeter]

I agree that it is hardly a problem.
But it isn't his 'family home' is it?
Isn't this the one he was claiming the allowance for when the allowance rort blew up?

Define "family home". I guess he is probably not the only politician who needs to run (due to his job) several households to have some presence in his electorate as well as in Wellington.

[fungus pudding]

I've seen John Key 'opening' a tourism venture, of course long after all the hard work had been done, and while his speech to a few onlookers was OK, the main reason for him being there was so the TV crew could bail him up outside and he could blather on about other issues of importance. I've no doubt that tourism is mostly fired along by the hard work of the business owners, it would be a feel-good portfolio that any minister would enjoy.

Bill English won't be moving into premier House at the moment. (http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/new-pm-bill-english-wont-live-in-premier-house-2016121213) Wise choice, it would be a lot of upheaval to move from Karori and into another place for just a few months. It's almost an admission that he doesn't expect to win the next election. Is that another reason for John Key to step down - to at least give hardworking Bill a taste of being PM, even if he is normally unelectable?

In a gift that will keep on giving, Paula Bennett was up against Jack Tame again this morning on TV1, and you could see from her wide eyes that she was being careful with every word. Of course when tackled about poverty and what the govt is doing about it, her answer was that it's so very complex, what with all the intergenerational things like drugs, alcohol abuse etc.

It was nothing to do with well paid jobs, that's going perfectly OK?

National Party supporters should be ashamed of this govt.

You're a sad sad man eZ. Spend a little time enjoying life instead of feeding your paranoia by turning every single action of the National party into some sort of crime scene or some other negative. There is absolutely no doubt that Key was widely admired internationally and has done more for tourism that any previous minister.
As for assuming English will not win the next election- I'm afraid you are wrong. He has no opposition.

[Sgt Pepper]

There was no rort. Everything he did was within the rules. Even though there was no fault on his part he repaid the money he had rightfully claimed and made no further claims.

If I recall he was referred to a the Member for DoubleDIPTON

[Sgt Pepper]

There was no rort. Everything he did was within the rules. Even though there was no fault on his part he repaid the money he had rightfully claimed and made no further claims.

So why did he apologise publically??

[dobby41]

Define "family home". I guess he is probably not the only politician who needs to run (due to his job) several households to have some presence in his electorate as well as in Wellington.

They have to define 'family home' because they only get the allowance if they are away from the 'family home'.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that they should get something for living away from home.
I'm just pointing out a fact or 2.

[dobby41]

There is absolutely no doubt that Key was widely admired internationally and has done more for tourism that any previous minister.

There should, though, be more to a PM than that.
Smile and wave.

[dobby41]

There was no rort. Everything he did was within the rules. Even though there was no fault on his part he repaid the money he had rightfully claimed and made no further claims.

Oh it was within the rules.
Maybe the rules are a rort?
There are rules, then there is what is right - not always the same.

[fungus pudding]

So why did he apologise publically??

Because the public didn't like it, but it was allowed for in cabinet rules.

[blackcap]

What say you to this ElZorro? Taken from the oil blogger site..... (im not implying National do not do "dirty politics", I think politics is dirty for all)

A poster "brett68" on Kiwiblog dug out the following info:

"Who’s running the Stand with Pike campaign?
http://standwithpike.nz/
Out of curiosity, I did a whois look up on it.
registrant_contact_name: Piko Consulting Ltd
admin_contact_name: Nevada Halbert

Piko consulting seems to be a PR company based out of Wellington who
according to google is owned by a chap called Rob Egan who according to
the bio on Boots theory

https://bootstheory.wordpress....

(cached version)

Rob Egan is an ex-senior advisor to two Labour Party leaders and co-owner of public relations firm Piko Consulting.
Nevada Halbert according to a post on Whale oil put her name forward for the Labour seat of Tukituki" ........"

Appears that Labour like their dirty politics.

[winner69]

Was there any substance to that story last week that Little should run in Mt Albert so he can made to look like a winner to the populus

Some cynic did suggest that would ensure he is still a MP post election if Labour go below 23%

[fungus pudding]

Was there any substance to that story last week that Little should run in Mt Albert so he can made to look like a winner to the populus

Some cynic did suggest that would ensure he is still a MP post election if Labour go below 23%

Which with a fresh looking National party could happen. Bound to knock Labour a bit. What a shame that would be. Imagine eZ! He'd be on the nerve pills.

[Baa_Baa]

Because the public didn't like it, but it was allowed for in cabinet rules.

Are you sure about the "cabinet rules" bit? Maybe you meant the Parliamentary Service ministerial employment contracts and entitlements?

[iceman]

What say you to this ElZorro? Taken from the oil blogger site..... (im not implying National do not do "dirty politics", I think politics is dirty for all)

A poster "brett68" on Kiwiblog dug out the following info:

"Who’s running the Stand with Pike campaign?
http://standwithpike.nz/
Out of curiosity, I did a whois look up on it.
registrant_contact_name: Piko Consulting Ltd
admin_contact_name: Nevada Halbert

Piko consulting seems to be a PR company based out of Wellington who
according to google is owned by a chap called Rob Egan who according to
the bio on Boots theory

https://bootstheory.wordpress....

(cached version)

Rob Egan is an ex-senior advisor to two Labour Party leaders and co-owner of public relations firm Piko Consulting.
Nevada Halbert according to a post on Whale oil put her name forward for the Labour seat of Tukituki" ........"

Appears that Labour like their dirty politics.

Surely not blackcap. This must be just more dirt coming from CrosbyTexter or whatever they're called, you know that outfit EZ is always going on about. Mind you I am of the view that Bernie Monk and his supporters need a good dose of advise, even from failed Labour advisers, because the way they're carrying on, they will lose any remaining support from the general public.

[fungus pudding]

Are you sure about the "cabinet rules" bit? Maybe you meant the Parliamentary Service ministerial employment contracts and entitlements?

That's probably it. It's covered in whatever applies, which certainly isn't cabinet rules.

[elZorro]

What say you to this ElZorro? Taken from the oil blogger site..... (im not implying National do not do "dirty politics", I think politics is dirty for all)

A poster "brett68" on Kiwiblog dug out the following info:

"Who’s running the Stand with Pike campaign?
http://standwithpike.nz/
Out of curiosity, I did a whois look up on it.
registrant_contact_name: Piko Consulting Ltd
admin_contact_name: Nevada Halbert

Piko consulting seems to be a PR company based out of Wellington who
according to google is owned by a chap called Rob Egan who according to
the bio on Boots theory

https://bootstheory.wordpress....

(cached version)

Rob Egan is an ex-senior advisor to two Labour Party leaders and co-owner of public relations firm Piko Consulting.
Nevada Halbert according to a post on Whale oil put her name forward for the Labour seat of Tukituki" ........"

Appears that Labour like their dirty politics.

Another way of looking at it, is that Labour people and many others with genuine concerns about the Pike River process, are fronting up however they can. Even Winston is getting in on the act, that's a bit too opportunistic perhaps. But at least they're all trying to bring the govt and Solid Energy to a point where something is done. It is an embarrassing situation for the govt, Pike River exploded during their tenure, at a time when there were only about two mines inspection officers for the whole country. What was the message from that?

[iceman]

Another way of looking at it, is that Labour people and many others with genuine concerns about the Pike River process, are fronting up however they can. Even Winston is getting in on the act, that's a bit too opportunistic perhaps. But at least they're all trying to bring the govt and Solid Energy to a point where something is done. It is an embarrassing situation for the govt, Pike River exploded during their tenure, at a time when there were only about two mines inspection officers for the whole country. What was the message from that?

EZ it is hardly up to Government ministers nor Parliament to make a decision to go into the mine is it ? What would happen if investigations found that a simple silly and careless mistake by a miner caused the explosion (I am not suggesting it but it is one of several possibilities)? Who would want to have it on their conscience to send people in there should things turn pear shaped ? This discussion has turned totally stupid and to turn it into a political stunt like Winston Peters and Andrew Little have done is shameful.
Adding more poisonous gases coming from WP's mouth is hardly the solution

[fungus pudding]

EZ it is hardly up to Government ministers nor Parliament to make a decision to go into the mine is it ? What would happen if investigations found that a simple silly and careless mistake by a miner caused the explosion (I am not suggesting it but it is one of several possibilities)? Who would want to have it on their conscience to send people in there should things turn pear shaped ? This discussion has turned totally stupid and to turn it into a political stunt like Winston Peters and Andrew Little have done is shameful.
Adding more poisonous gases coming from WP's mouth is hardly the solution

You overlook the fact that this whole matter gives eZ a chance to throw mud at National. It would be easier to discuss the subject with your dog or goldfish.
You could perhaps remind him that Labour cut the number of mine inspectors to two, or that if they had to make the decision to re-enter the mine they would come to the same conclusion. That is it is high risk. That might shut him up. This should not be a political matter. Hear that Winston? Thought not.
it's what mining experts conclude that should apply.

[Major von Tempsky]

Little seems to think he is guaranteed winning the next election without even raising his little finger. Letter in The Press today "

"Helen Clark will soon be unemployed and may be headed this way, looking to regain her old job. I hear it's still open."

[fungus pudding]

Little seems to think he is guaranteed winning the next election without even raising his little finger. Letter in The Press today "

"Helen Clark will soon be unemployed and may be headed this way, looking to regain her old job. I hear it's still open."

That would be the only thing that could boost Labour's chances, and it won't happen. They're stuck with their Little problem.

[westerly]

That would be the only thing that could boost Labour's chances, and it won't happen. They're stuck with their Little problem.

If the frequency of your posts is any indication, one would have to think you are a Little worried about the outcome of the next election

westerly

[fungus pudding]

If the frequency of your posts is any indication, one would have to think you are a Little worried about the outcome of the next election

westerly

Why would I worry? It's a foregone conclusion, and even if it wasn't I sure as eggs wouldn't worry.

[777]

Keep them rattled FP. I enjoy your posts.

[elZorro]

Yes, keep it up FP, you're definitely voting National, huh?

I hear Craig Foss has been the latest National MP to be tapped on the shoulder, and not in a good way?

http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/craig-foss-joins-list-of-national-mps-not-seeking-re-election-2016121413

Guess we were right about Jacinda Ardern, she's applying for Mt Albert. Well done.

An interesting interlude in the closing of parliament today, where the Maori party showed extraordinary musical talents. Some in the National front benches looked, by comparison, to be beached like right whales.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87579469/silly-season-in-the-beehive-mp-marama-fox-performs-xmas-song-with-a-twist

They're not required back in parliament until 7th Feb. Sounds like a good job, from the outside.

Here's a bit about the USA election aftermath. Guess we're not that bad.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-political-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502734&objectid=11745523

[westerly]

Keep them rattled FP. I enjoy your posts.

Easily amused?

westerly

[elZorro]

Easily amused?

westerly

Westerly, I just saw David Shearer's valedictory speech. He was given a standing ovation from all sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCRXtASbwg

[BlackPeter]

Westerly, I just saw David Shearer's valedictory speech. He was given a standing ovation from all sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCRXtASbwg

Yep, real pity Cunliffe stabbed him in the back ... Given the right team (I know, impossible) he would have had a chance to win against Key (or English).

[elZorro]

Yep, real pity Cunliffe stabbed him in the back ... Given the right team (I know, impossible) he would have had a chance to win against Key (or English).

I doubt Cunliffe was Shearer's main problem, it was the well-oiled National PR machine that poisoned the Shearer brand in the eyes of the public. Plus, he was at the wrong end of the "three terms in, three terms out" stage. Andrew Little has the timing right, he'll make it.

[777]

Easily amused?

westerly

It is not amusement that i follow this thread for but you can't help laughing at the trash spouted forth by you anti National posters.

[fungus pudding]

Yes, keep it up FP, you're definitely voting National, huh?

]

Bot necessarily. I use my vote in the most effective way to keep dopey parties such as the current hopeless Little led Labour mob out. So it's a matter of poll watching. Sometimes it's better to prop up a coalition partner. Who knows? I might vote Labour again if they find a proper leader and come out with sensible policies. Neither looking likely. More likely they'll become as extinct as the dinosaur before they address their problems, because like an alcoholic, the first step is recognising and admitting the problem.
As they are they should rename themselves the Flintstone party of Bedrock, and Little could be Fred. If you look closely at Cosgrove's hair style and build, he'd make a good Barney Rubble. Jacinda Aderne could be Wilma. Clare Curran - Betty.

[elZorro]

Bot necessarily. I use my vote in the most effective way to keep dopey parties such as the current hopeless Little led Labour mob out. So it's a matter of poll watching. Sometimes it's better to prop up a coalition partner. Who knows? I might vote Labour again if they find a proper leader and come out with sensible policies. Neither looking likely. More likely they'll become as extinct as the dinosaur before they address their problems, because like an alcoholic, the first step is recognising and admitting the problem.
As they are they could rename themselves the Flintstone party of Bedrock, and Little could be Fred. If you look closely at Cosgrove's hair style, he'd make a good Barney Rubble. Jacinda Aderne could be Wilma.

From where I'm sitting, it's the National Party that is the weird mob. As David Shearer said, they had such a popular following, why didn't the current govt do anything bold? So many tough questions left unanswered. I think the popular following was mainly due to Crosby-Textor's help, plenty of money spent, and the outwardly friendly attitude of John Key. It wasn't because they did anything useful for many.

OK, we have fibre, we'll have a few more motorways. Some hospital upgrades. Labour would have done that too, plus a lot more, in the pursuit of a fairer society. That ideal has never gone out of fashion, unless you're in the top 2% already, and want to hold onto every perk.

BTW, Jacinda's family name is Ardern. I checked.

[craic]

With regard to Shearers valedictory speech,that's about all he ever got from Labour except the boot. I attend dozens of funerals and I have yet to encounter anyone who said anything against the deceased or refused to stand when the casket is carried out.

[elZorro]

With regard to Shearers valedictory speech,that's about all he ever got from Labour except the boot. I attend dozens of funerals and I have yet to encounter anyone who said anything against the deceased or refused to stand when the casket is carried out.

I think in this case, it was more generous than usual, he was popular in parliament. Maybe Shearer wasn't suited to politics at the highest level, but he was a good MP by all accounts, and now he returns to his true passion, humanitarian work.

[fungus pudding]

From where I'm sitting, it's the National Party that is the weird mob. As David Shearer said, they had such a popular following, why didn't the current govt do anything bold? So many tough questions left unanswered. I think the popular following was mainly due to Crosby-Textor's help,



I'd put it down to having likeable MPs fronting the party.
Do you think Labour's unpopularity is due to their PR man as well, or are you putting it all down to Little?

[fungus pudding]

From where I'm sitting, it's the National Party that is the weird mob. As David Shearer said, they had such a popular following, why didn't the current govt do anything bold? So many tough questions left unanswered. I think the popular following was mainly due to Crosby-Textor's help, plenty of money spent, and the outwardly friendly attitude of John Key. It wasn't because they did anything useful for many.

OK, we have fibre, we'll have a few more motorways. Some hospital upgrades. Labour would have done that too, plus a lot more, in the pursuit of a fairer society. That ideal has never gone out of fashion, unless you're in the top 2% already, and want to hold onto every perk.

BTW, Jacinda's family name is Ardern. I checked.


Than-you. I have corrected her name, and also realised I had omitted Clare Curran's role. role.

As they are they should rename themselves the Flintstone party of Bedrock, and Little could be Fred. If you look closely at Cosgrove's hair style and build, he'd make a good Barney Rubble. Jacinda Adern could be Wilma. Clare Curran - Betty.

[elZorro]

Than-you. I have corrected her name, and also realised I had omitted Clare Curran's role. role.

As they are they should rename themselves the Flintstone party of Bedrock, and Little could be Fred. If you look closely at Cosgrove's hair style and build, he'd make a good Barney Rubble. Jacinda Adern could be Wilma. Clare Curran - Betty.

Very droll.. you still got Jacinda's surname wrong though. Attention to detail - that's what would make this nation great again, with a brighter future.

[elZorro]

I'd put it down to having likeable MPs fronting the party.
Do you think Labour's unpopularity is due to their PR man as well, or are you putting it all down to Little?

I think you realise that if Labour had millions or so to spend on an outfit like Crosby-Textor over the years (they don't come cheap), they'd look pretty good too, and maybe they'd be better funded as a result. Look behind all that, into policies and their MPs - Labour stacks up, and what happened last time they were in office? Guess what, the country boomed, and old debt was paid off as well.

Labour should have their own TUI billboard:

Competent - Incompetent
Fair - Unfair
New Jobs - Immigrants
Homeowners - Rentiers

[777]

What the hell is a Rentier? Attention to detail please.

[Sgt Pepper]

What the hell is a Rentier? Attention to detail please.


A rentier is a person who derives their income solely from property and other investments

[777]

Ah so it is a French word but I think eZ was still referring to renters as an opposite to home owner.

[elZorro]

Ah so it is a French word but I think eZ was still referring to renters as an opposite to home owner.

No, I was referring to rentiers, being those who don't contribute a great deal to an economy, while living mainly off rent. It is a generally derogative term with Marxist origins, compared to 'private enterprise' for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_capitalism

[blackcap]

No, I was referring to rentiers, being those who don't contribute a great deal to an economy, while living mainly off rent. It is a generally derogative term with Marxist origins, compared to 'private enterprise' for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_capitalism

So housing NZ is a rentier? I mean living off rent (providing housing), living off invested capital (ie dividends from stocks/business owner) or living off interest (debt funding) what is the difference?

[elZorro]

So housing NZ is a rentier? I mean living off rent (providing housing), living off invested capital (ie dividends from stocks/business owner) or living off interest (debt funding) what is the difference?

Housing NZ was at least not trying to make huge profits from tenants, and presumably in the past all income was put back into upkeep and renovation or renewal. Its primary aim was not to reap capital gain over a couple of decades. National has managed to pull money out of Housing NZ, plus board up a lot of state houses for no good reason. The human overflow goes to caravan parks etc. Criminal.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201827713/auckland-caravan-park-gets-472k-in-winz-payments-in-two-years

[winner69]

English didn't look like a PM on TV tonite. The people of Kaikoura should be worried.

Mind you old Gerry didn't help getting grumpy as

[elZorro]

English didn't look like a PM on TV tonite. The people of Kaikoura should be worried.

Mind you old Gerry didn't help getting grumpy as

Here's another guest commenter on the National lineup, he's also not impressed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wanganui-chronicle/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503423&objectid=11766115

Your friend Sharon Murdoch really has Paula down pat.

[Sgt Pepper]

So housing NZ is a rentier? I mean living off rent (providing housing), living off invested capital (ie dividends from stocks/business owner) or living off interest (debt funding) what is the difference?

Are you serious?

[elZorro]

Labour was calling for Murray McCully to step down from office, from at the latest, mid 2015. If he had been a Labour MP in the Clark administration, she would have acted decisively after the Saudi sheep backroom deal. In fairness to Labour, it wouldn't have even occurred under a Clark administration.

The point is, John Key's govt shied away from tricky decisions. They spent so much effort pleasing everybody, that nothing sensible got done.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87611521/murray-mccully-quitting-politics

[iceman]

Labour was calling for Murray McCully to step down from office, from at the latest, mid 2015. If he had been a Labour MP in the Clark administration, she would have acted decisively after the Saudi sheep backroom deal. In fairness to Labour, it wouldn't have even occurred under a Clark administration.

The point is, John Key's govt shied away from tricky decisions. They spent so much effort pleasing everybody, that nothing sensible got done.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87611521/murray-mccully-quitting-politics

It DID HAPPEN under the Clarke administration. They created a mess that McCully fixed.

[elZorro]

It DID HAPPEN under the Clark administration. They created a mess that McCully fixed.

So you say. No legal proceedings were ever in play.

https://twitter.com/domesticanimal/status/614595143002296320

Who is going to fix the property market? That was certainly fuelled by National's decision to open up immigration.

[dobby41]

It DID HAPPEN under the Clarke administration. They created a mess that McCully fixed.

Mess - what mess?
A very dodgy deal if ever I saw one.

[blackcap]

Are you serious?

Yes I am. My question as to what is the difference is. Rentier's provide housing, investment in capital provides jobs, business etc, investment in debt stimulates the economy. There is a good case to make for all three. They work well when working together. One cannot go without the other. If no one provided housing to rent they many more would be living on the streets presumably. (those that cannot afford to purchase a house)

How would it work if there were no people with rentals? That question also needs to be answered. Maybe the laws have favoured landlords too much in the past but it would be dangerous if it were to go too far the other way too.....

[elZorro]

Yes I am. My question as to what is the difference is. Rentier's provide housing, investment in capital provides jobs, business etc, investment in debt stimulates the economy. There is a good case to make for all three. They work well when working together. One cannot go without the other. If no one provided housing to rent they many more would be living on the streets presumably. (those that cannot afford to purchase a house)

How would it work if there were no people with rentals? That question also needs to be answered. Maybe the laws have favoured landlords too much in the past but it would be dangerous if it were to go too far the other way too.....

Your argument would be stronger, blackcap, if you obeyed the simple apostrophe laws, and related sentences to each other. Obviously there need to be some rental's available. It would be preferable to have the State providing quality lower-priced accommodation, as they can do it the cheapest, with their existing land, the GST/tax treatment, etc. National has tried to remove some of that opportunity and give it to private landlord's, its a very obvious ploy. (Three incorrect uses there).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7NnV2ntYU

Have the laws of the land favoured landlords too much in the past? Yes, of course they have, many books have been written on the subject, how to make a fortune the easy way, by being a rentier. Then there are the landlord meeting groups where tips are shared. I hear these people are also a big part of the black economy, they like their tradespeople to be on the dole and paid under the table. No shortage of people who would fit the bill.

Of course the biggest chance to make a fortune with rentals is untaxed capital gain. This factor is heightened when property prices boom, as they will do when stimulated by political means. National made sure the perfect conditions remained (OK interest rates were low from external issues) but our immigration settings are lax. Deliberately so.

[craic]

Trades people on the dole? - paid under the table? Yesterday I wanted a load of #####. Normally I would be lucky to get it by Christmas - yesterday it was delivered within two hours. Money in the letterbox. Both the seller who is not on the dole and the buyer who has never been on the dole are National supporters. It is now 6.30 am on a Saturday and I am about to go up the hill and start up my chainsaw. I paid taxes on my rent income as a landlord - gave it up as I could make more trading on the market with no hassles.

[fungus pudding]

Your argument would be stronger, blackcap, if you obeyed the simple apostrophe laws, and related sentences to each other. Obviously there need to be some rental's available.


Classic case of the pot calling the kettle black there eZ with the apostrophe in rentiers. Besides your argument is ridiculous. Of course there is a property investors group just as there is for plumbers and accountants etc. I don't know where you hear about this black economy, but suspect it's your imagination. There are plenty of homeowners who prefer to deal in under the counter transactions. But to a landlord there is no advantage, because they lose the deductibility of such payments. And if you really believe the law favours landlords, try being a residential landlord where you may have the opportunity to have a case heard by the tenancy tribunal. Without fail they ignore all breaches by the tenant and hammer the landlord.

Correction. Your apostrophe was in rentals. (not rentiers)

[artemis]

Classic case of the pot calling the kettle black there eZ with the apostrophe in rentiers. Besides your argument is ridiculous. Of course there is a property investors group just as there is for plumbers and accountants etc. I don't know where you hear about this black economy, but suspect it's your imagination. There are plenty of homeowners who prefer to deal in under the counter transactions. But to a landlord there is no advantage, because they lose the deductibility of such payments. And if you really believe the law favours landlords, try being a residential landlord where you may have the opportunity to have a case heard by the tenancy tribunal. Without fail they ignore all breaches by the tenant and hammer the landlord.

Heh I think elZorro was making a point about apostrophes. Or should that be apostophe's.

It is correct that landlords can't usually expense cashies unless there is a receipt, but the lower rate probably makes up for that. In the end though it is the recipient who is responsible for declaring income to the IRD. People who work under the table skew the market for those of us that pay income tax and GST and should be dobbed in to IRD. Conservative estimate of the black economy in NZ is $20billion a year.

Don't agree about the Tenancy Tribunal. Yes it probably errs on the side of the tenant sometimes, but there are tens of thousands of applications each year, almost all brought by landlords. I've looked at plenty of decisions and landlords win most of the time. I did go to the TT to support a young rellie tenant once. We won 12 of 13 items claimed by the landlord, and the 13th the tenant agreed to pay. The landlord was smacked very hard by the TT on several points, including trying to get the tenant to pay for long deferred maintenance. (We had a detailed rebuttal, supported by evidence and photos, researched and written by moi LOL!)

[fungus pudding]

Heh I think elZorro was making a point about apostrophes. Or should that be apostophe's.

It is correct that landlords can't usually expense cashies unless there is a receipt, but the lower rate probably makes up for that. In the end though it is the recipient who is responsible for declaring income to the IRD. People who work under the table skew the market for those of us that pay income tax and GST and should be dobbed in to IRD. Conservative estimate of the black economy in NZ is $20billion a year.

Don't agree about the Tenancy Tribunal. Yes it probably errs on the side of the tenant sometimes, but there are tens of thousands of applications each year, almost all brought by landlords. I've looked at plenty of decisions and landlords win most of the time. I did go to the TT to support a young rellie tenant once. We won 12 of 13 items claimed by the landlord, and the 13th the tenant agreed to pay. The landlord was smacked very hard by the TT on several points, including trying to get the tenant to pay for long deferred maintenance. (We had a detailed rebuttal, supported by evidence and photos, researched and written by moi LOL!)

My TT experience has been mainly with student rentals - invariably young groups, and the TT has proven extremely lenient yet harsh on landlords.
A history lesson - not long after the property investors groups started forming around the country, a Labour party member named Alan McLean, himself a landlord, tried to set up a group to be known as The tenants protection society. Unfortunately, there were no tenants who needed protection or wanted to join. According to McLean this was because it was around Christmas so the tenants were too busy to join. (That's true) It failed after a short time and as far as I know has never resurfaced.
Landlords groups formed The Property investors federation. I understand the main benefit to member is having somewhere to turn for advice on leases and legislation concerning rentals. Naturally they have negotiated discounts from a few merchants - as all groups do. eZ seems to imply something sinister about landlord meetings. He also waffles about untaxed capital gain. Many do, but it's not exactly the case. NZ does not have a capital gains tax, but it can and does apply income tax to property gains where someone is actively trading in property, or where the intention when purchased was to resell. All these things cost eZ a lot of sleepless nights. My own sleepless nights have been caused tossing and turning trying to figure out how I can devote even more of my life to keeping my tenants happy. These days it's much easier having no residential tenants any more. The only way to keep them happy was to provide them with something to wreck.

[elZorro]

Heh I think elZorro was making a point about apostrophes. Or should that be apostophe's.

It is correct that landlords can't usually expense cashies unless there is a receipt, but the lower rate probably makes up for that. In the end though it is the recipient who is responsible for declaring income to the IRD. People who work under the table skew the market for those of us that pay income tax and GST and should be dobbed in to IRD. Conservative estimate of the black economy in NZ is $20billion a year.

Don't agree about the Tenancy Tribunal. Yes it probably errs on the side of the tenant sometimes, but there are tens of thousands of applications each year, almost all brought by landlords. I've looked at plenty of decisions and landlords win most of the time. I did go to the TT to support a young rellie tenant once. We won 12 of 13 items claimed by the landlord, and the 13th the tenant agreed to pay. The landlord was smacked very hard by the TT on several points, including trying to get the tenant to pay for long deferred maintenance. (We had a detailed rebuttal, supported by evidence and photos, researched and written by moi LOL!)

Appreciate the comments Artemis, all might be fine from where FP is standing, but when I was renting, in fact the first place I rented as a student, we had these issues on moving in:
fleas in abundance, flat uncleaned from previous tenant who had a dog perhaps
poor water flow into the flat and in fact the whole property, because the road pipeline was corroded up (we got it fixed)
fire hazard from the stove, thermostat locked on.

If all landlords have always been great people, concerned for their property and the tenants' welfare, why would it be left in such a state for the new tenant? One landlord I know leaves their flats alone with long-term tenants, only tidying them up when they leave years later, the main aim being to collect more rent. Their justification is that they couldn't really charge much more for the previous tenant, so why do any extra work?

Of course in my brief foray into leasing a commercial premises, I again found the boot was firmly on the owner's foot. In that case the lease terms are even more onerous.

Gareth's ideas, taxing everything, I'm not so sure. But there has to be a compromise.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-business-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501241&objectid=11766835&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Saturday+17 +December+2016

[elZorro]

Superannuation entitlements might be an election topic in 2017.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/87652747/shamubeel-eaqub-the-coming-war-of-ages?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Saturday+17 +December+2016

With John Key resigning, Bill English might change National's policy of no change to the 65 year eligible date. It won't worry me, I intend to be well set up by then.

What has perturbed me, is that after years of beating up the govt about how changes must inevitably be made, Labour under Andrew Little has swapped to the opposite tack again, presumably in a shallow attempt to gain votes. I thought they/we were better than that. Once a clear decision had been made on the facts, then any sensible course, despite it being perhaps unpalatable to some voters, should be taken.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87501554/labour-leader-andrew-little-says-superannuation-fund-needs-boost-but-leave-retirement-age-alone

At least his opinion is tagged to the need to start super fund contributions again. Of course if the National Govt had thrown some money into that area of investment instead of mostly into new motorways, the super fund would be rolling in $20Bill extra cash by now. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72105340/Stopped-contributions-cost-NZ-Super-Fund-billions)Shares, for example, generally recovered very well after the GFC.

[dobby41]

Untaxed capital gain is an interesting subject for a share investor forum.
Have a chat to Mr and Mr Morgan about the untaxed capital gain they got from their TradeMe investment.
Same rule applied across the board.
Trade shares or houses - pay tax (I presume you all declare your share trades?).
Long term hold shares or houses and non-taxable income from any gain.

[elZorro]

Untaxed capital gain is an interesting subject for a share investor forum.
Have a chat to Mr and Mr Morgan about the untaxed capital gain they got from their TradeMe investment.
Same rule applied across the board.
Trade shares or houses - pay tax (I presume you all declare your share trades?).
Long term hold shares or houses and non-taxable income from any gain.

Yes, my point exactly. Where do you draw the line between trading and long-term holding? I think that if the cost of any interest can be and has been expensed against any income from an asset while it is held, then the asset should be taxed on the sale, but not each year as Gareth is proposing. We all buy assets or build them up in the hope that there will be a long-term benefit, and that's stabilising for a community. Being taxed on it each year would be a massive disincentive for some. A small tax on capital gain at the sale time is a simple system, it occurs while the previous owner is flush with cash and not at some awkward part in a business cycle. Such a system would never tax a privately held home (within capital value limits of course) as any interest paid cannot be offset against other income.

Obviously a sale of a business like Trademe or Sistema's vehicle would then attract a capital gains tax, and I suspect that the main reason some businesses are disposed of when they get to this level, is that they are finally going to have to pay substantial income tax in their normal annual operations. Majority owners can thus circumvent this inevitable "problem" by selling out to take a tax-free capital gain, depriving the Crown of tax income most likely. Overseas owners will find ways to reload the business with costs, as part of a bigger operation that may have substantial losses elsewhere.

[BlackPeter]

Untaxed capital gain is an interesting subject for a share investor forum.
Have a chat to Mr and Mr Morgan about the untaxed capital gain they got from their TradeMe investment.
Same rule applied across the board.
Trade shares or houses - pay tax (I presume you all declare your share trades?).
Long term hold shares or houses and non-taxable income from any gain.

Not quite the right thread to discuss - but just to clarify: whether you need to pay taxes for realised capital gains in share trading has nothing to do with the time you did hold the shares and all with your intentions when you bought the shares. If you intended to buy the shares to profit from capital gains, than you are always liable to pay tax. If you bought the shares only with the intention to benefit form the dividends, than you don't need to pay taxes for any realised capital gain.

Obviously (and often before discussed) - intention is hard to test ... but this is really something we should discuss somewhere else.

One link to add to the confusion: http://www.guide2.co.nz/money/questions/tax/at-what-point-does-a-stock-trader-need-to-pay-tax-on-profits/6/11477

[dobby41]

My comment was more in relation to the earlier suggestion that property investors had an advantage of untaxed capital gains.
Same rules apply between shares and property.
There is no tilt in favour of property.

[elZorro]

So National have decided not to contest Mt Albert. They could have forced Labour to use more funds and energy to take it, so it's a chicken-liver move, really. Don't they have any new policies they could try out in the by-election? National also won the party vote there by 4,000 votes in 2014, so to not contest the by-election for an MP position, says that they're giving up on much of Auckland.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/320794/national-won't-contest-mt-albert-by-election

Are National wanting to keep their smug look, (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87729502/national-will-not-stand-candidate-in-mt-albert-byelection-to-replace-labour-mp-david-shearer)and hope plenty of funds will turn up for the general election?

Anyway, it looks like Jacinda Ardern will be the MP for Mt Albert soon, not a list MP any more. I hope she gives the electorate office building's walls a facelift. It's a good spot for a big advert for Labour.

[777]

Having Jacinda there achieves exactly what the voters would want. No by-election and replace departing MP with someone on the list.

[elZorro]

Having Jacinda there achieves exactly what the voters would want. No by-election and replace departing MP with someone on the list.

I don't think that's legal. It would be simpler and cheaper. But this way, Labour gets to reinforce their dominance at the moment. It's funny how much poor work behind the scenes by National, John Key seemed to hide. Labour people can see it, but not many of the gung-ho neo-liberals and general public seemed to notice.

Current poor state of the Mt Albert electorate office. If Jacinda knows what she's doing, it'll get a big tidy-up.

Paula "Hyperbowl" Bennett, the Minister of Everything? God help us. She still has Climate Change (don't worry, it's not a biggie).

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/saw-synergy-in-them-paula-bennett-takes-over-police-and-women-cabinet-reshuffle

There is a clear and present danger in passing too much responsibility to people who are not competent enough to handle it.

[777]

Of course it's not legal. It would be outside the current rules but the rules could/should be changed.

I don't believe ,as you do, that Labour will gain anything from participating in the by-election. The result is a forgone conclusion and voter turn out will be zilch. Labour voters know their vote is not needed and National voters won't bother voting so the whole exercise is futile.

And this is how National read it so thumbs up to them. Get on with running the country and skip the side show.

[fungus pudding]

I don't think that's legal. It would be simpler and cheaper. But this way, Labour gets to reinforce their dominance at the moment.

Even for you that is a ridiculous comment.

[elZorro]

Of course it's not legal. It would be outside the current rules but the rules could/should be changed.

I don't believe ,as you do, that Labour will gain anything from participating in the by-election. The result is a forgone conclusion and voter turn out will be zilch. Labour voters know their vote is not needed and National voters won't bother voting so the whole exercise is futile.

And this is how National read it so thumbs up to them. Get on with running the country and skip the side show.

I don't think the Mt Albert by-election will be a sideshow. I think you'll see the full effort of the Labour party people on the ground, they'll most likely have a very popular candidate who is clearly up to the job and lives in the electorate, who has done a lot of time in front of the camera and always handled it well. National were correct to assume that this electorate will stay with a Labour MP, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't front up and try to compete.

It's the same type of action they have been using for eight years with the wider country - if things go wrong then pretend it doesn't matter, mouth a few good intentions at a TV camera, or at worst try a diluted version of Labour policy.

[craic]

Aha! now we know why Labour keep winning elections, year in and year out!
I don't think the Mt Albert by-election will be a sideshow. I think you'll see the full effort of the Labour party people on the ground, they'll most likely have a very popular candidate who is clearly up to the job and lives in the electorate, who has done a lot of time in front of the camera and always handled it well. National were correct to assume that this electorate will stay with a Labour MP, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't front up and try to compete.

It's the same type of action they have been using for eight years with the wider country - if things go wrong then pretend it doesn't matter, mouth a few good intentions at a TV camera, or at worst try a diluted version of Labour policy.

[dobby41]

It's the same type of action they have been using for eight years with the wider country - if things go wrong then pretend it doesn't matter, mouth a few good intentions at a TV camera, or at worst try a diluted version of Labour policy.

Or come up with a diversion.
Flag debate anyone?

[winner69]

Nats chicken out of Mt Albert

Match race between Greens and Labour - interesting

Or will Greens not stand either (or have they already decided not to in interest of their partnership)

[fungus pudding]

Nats chicken out of Mt Albert

Match race between Greens and Labour - interesting

Or will Greens not stand either

Is there anybody in the entire planet who cares?

[Sgt Pepper]

Is there anybody in the entire planet who cares?

Well for a start perhaps the 10000 people who voted for the National Party Mt Eden candidate in the 2014 Election .

[BlackPeter]

Is there anybody in the entire planet who cares?

Well, yes - the handful of Labour supporters in NZ. Given that it is Labour imposing the absolutely unnecessary cost of a by election less than a year before the next general election on the country (for no good reason other than p..sing off their own MP's), they hoped they can find somebody else to share the shame for being huge wasters of taxpayers money.

Good to see National didn't take the bait. Fight the battles which matter.

[macduffy]

I thought that Annette King's comment this morning was a tad incredulous. Something along the lines of "One of our members has resigned to take another job opportunity - so the government should call an early election."

:ohmy:

[BlackPeter]

Well for a start perhaps the 10000 people who voted for the National Party Mt Eden candidate in the 2014 Election .

They will have later in 2017 an opportunity to vote for a candidate worthwhile voting for ... and than for a full term, not just for a quick trip to Wellington to finish the term before they started to do some work ...

[fungus pudding]

Well for a start perhaps the 10000 people who voted for the National Party Mt Eden candidate in the 2014 Election .

Why would they care? It's not a general election. There is no point in standing in a by-election in that electorate for any party but Labour. Otherwise it's va waste of money for all parties, and with only a short period to the general election. If the monocle was on the other eye, Labour would do the same.

[Sgt Pepper]

Why would they care? It's not a general election. There is no point in standing in a by-election in that electorate for any party but Labour. Otherwise it's va waste of money for all parties, and with only a short period to the general election. If the monocle was on the other eye, Labour would do the same.

Unconvincing

[dobby41]

Well, yes - the handful of Labour supporters in NZ. Given that it is Labour imposing the absolutely unnecessary cost of a by election less than a year before the next general election on the country (for no good reason other than p..sing off their own MP's), they hoped they can find somebody else to share the shame for being huge wasters of taxpayers money.

Good to see National didn't take the bait. Fight the battles which matter.

I thought a by election was necessary if the seat becomes vacant more than 6 months prior to the general election?
Is there any other option than hold the by election?
Labour are not allowed to just have a caretaker MP in the seat.
If Labour stood the only candidate (ie no one constested the seat) is an election still necessary or do they win by default without the need for a ballot?

[fungus pudding]

I thought a by election was necessary if the seat becomes vacant more than 6 months prior to the general election?
Is there any other option than hold the by election?
Labour are not allowed to just have a caretaker MP in the seat.
If Labour stood the only candidate (ie no one constested the seat) is an election still necessary or do they win by default without the need for a ballot?

That's an interesting question. A by-election is required but surely logic would apply and if the parties all grew up and admit nobody but Labour will win the seat, they'd all gain some respect. Tell the chief returning officer that all but Labour are conceding - and surely that would be that! They'd save their own parties funds and the taxpayers' as well.

[BlackPeter]

I thought a by election was necessary if the seat becomes vacant more than 6 months prior to the general election?
Is there any other option than hold the by election?
Labour are not allowed to just have a caretaker MP in the seat.
If Labour stood the only candidate (ie no one constested the seat) is an election still necessary or do they win by default without the need for a ballot?

Not sure about MP's. However in local politics (like community boards), if there is only one candidate, this candidate is automatically elected. Would make sense for MP's as well, but I guess we will find out ...

[dobby41]

but surely logic would apply

The law will apply - logic has nothing to do with it.

[fungus pudding]

The law will apply - logic has nothing to do with it.


Appointing an unopposed candidate in an election is normal practice and, unless the rules are drafted to specifically exclude that, it should happen. Of course, there would always be some lunatic who would stick his or her name down as an independent to stuff it all up.

[Sgt Pepper]

Appointing an unopposed candidate in an election is normal practice and, unless the rules are drafted to specifically exclude that, it should happen. Of course, there would always be some lunatic who would stick his or her name down as an independent to stuff it all up.

I know, isn,t democracy a nuisance

[777]

Actually if an independent did stand in that case they could win. Just a thought.

[artemis]

A chance for TOP to test some policies. And for the ALCP to sign up a few more supporters. .

[fungus pudding]

I know, isn,t democracy a nuisance
No, but in this instance it's expensive. We all know the outcome.

Now Julie Ann Genter is chasing the seat. That's a laugh. Labour and the Greens each making a hole in their piggy banks to get Aderne elected. Obviously someone has piddled on the joint master-plan.

[elZorro]

No, but in this instance it's expensive. We all know the outcome.

Now Julie Ann Genter is chasing the seat. That's a laugh. Labour and the Greens each making a hole in their piggy banks to get Aderne elected. Obviously someone has piddled on the joint master-plan.

Ardern, you mean. FP, if you can't get their surnames right, then you don't know as much about these MPs as you'd like us to believe.

Apparently the talkback shows are getting lots of comments about Bill English not hanging in there after the next election. And that Nick Smith, an older MP the Young Nats would quietly like to see gone, is a very old friend of Bill's (their families go on holiday together). Little wonder he emerged relatively unscathed in the shakeup. Unlike the position of a Housing Minister. It now no longer exists, ergo there was no problem with housing, it's going perfectly.

Some data suggests NZ is still a good place to invest in property, but of course the graphs apply to average house prices. These have been strongly linear on average, in other words they didn't rise faster under Labour than they did under National (National's trying to pin that one on Labour). But in Auckland, it might be different. When immigration is boosted strongly, as National are doing, it will hit Auckland prices.
(http://www.mbie.govt.nz/publications-research/publications/housing-and-property/nidea-report-immigration-housing-literature-review.pdf)
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Pacific/New-Zealand/Price-History

Longer term this should force people out of Auckland and into the Waikato areas, and anecdotal evidence and strong delayed price increases in Hamilton bear this out. Are the regions ready for this? The furniture shops and building tradespeople are doing fine out of it anyway. National would look a bit smarter if they were helping regional businesses and startups along.

Somehow I think their attention is elsewhere - the 2017 elections, and do they have a dog's show of getting back in?

[fungus pudding]

Ardern, you mean. FP, if you can't get their surnames right, then you don't know as much about these MPs as you'd like us to believe.



Au contraire. I do not care what you believe, but I know what I need to know.

http://moorwood.de/index.php/arderne/intro-cheshire-ardernes/arden-ardern-arderne-etc.html

[elZorro]

Au contraire. I do not care what you believe, but I know what I need to know.

http://moorwood.de/index.php/arderne/intro-cheshire-ardernes/arden-ardern-arderne-etc.html

None of those family names are Aderne, you made it up? Ah, close enough I suppose, details, details.. it's unfortunate that in some areas, like politics, that's important.

[fungus pudding]

None of those family names are Aderne, you made it up? Ah, close enough I suppose, details, details.. it's unfortunate that in some areas, like politics, that's important.

Indeed, but not in that case.

[elZorro]

Indeed, but not in that case.

What about this one?


National’s campaign manager Steven Joyce said the decision not to stand in Mt Albert was a tactical one.
“This is a very safe Labour seat, if you add the Labour and green votes together it’s hugely safe, our view is simply to conserve our resources and have the General Election at the end of the year.”
“They [Labour] made their own decision for example not to stand in Northland and that was fine for them,” Mr Joyce said.

When it was pointed to Mr Joyce that Labour did field a candidate in the Northland by-election he responded “oh they did, but they didn’t – they just said ‘you guys will vote for Winston’ [Peters] and they did.”
“When they said they stood I think that’s a relative term.

[fungus pudding]

What about this one?


What on earth are you on about now? Your concern should be the general election, not some meaningless by-election.. That paranoia is spreading to every single utterance of National. It's nearly Xmas. Take a holiday.

[elZorro]

What on earth are you on about now? Your concern should be the general election, not some meaningless by-election.. That paranoia is spreading to every single utterance of National. It's nearly Xmas. Take a holiday.

I'm sorry you're running out of ammo, FP. You did remind me of that meaningless Northland by-election, where National's hapless candidate was denied being elected in a National stronghold. Was John Key's attempt to help up there, a metaphor for his time in office? Missed - by that much. Failed to nail anything down despite/because of record popularity with voters.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/video-no-nail-fail-for-winston-peters-2015031117

[BlackPeter]

I'm sorry you're running out of ammo, FP. You did remind me of that meaningless Northland by-election, where National's hapless candidate was denied being elected in a National stronghold. Was John Key's attempt to help up there, a metaphor for his time in office? Missed - by that much. Failed to nail anything down despite/because of record popularity with voters.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/video-no-nail-fail-for-winston-peters-2015031117

Well, yes - Northland by election reminds much of the recent US elections - doesn't it? In both elections did dangerous populists win the election over any decency or common sense. In both cases was the electorate screwed afterwards (or do you remember anything Northland did win by electing the demagogue?), but they gave the establishment the finger. What I don't understand is - how would this right-wing populism be any good for Labour? Did Labour sink that low that they don't care anymore for the good of the people?

[fungus pudding]

I'm sorry you're running out of ammo, FP. You did remind me of that meaningless Northland by-election, where National's hapless candidate was denied being elected in a National stronghold. Was John Key's attempt to help up there, a metaphor for his time in office? Missed - by that much. Failed to nail anything down despite/because of record popularity with voters.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/video-no-nail-fail-for-winston-peters-2015031117

I had no idea that Key had difficulty with a hammer. That's a massive revelation. I'm starting to understand your dislike of him. Thank Allah he's gone.

[Sgt Pepper]

Bill English, having grown up on a farm would have been reliable with a hammer. Mind you, Helen Clarke being a dairy farmers daughter was probably ok to.

A bit of historical perpective regadring next years general election

1957: National change leader to Keith Holyoake : 1957: lose to Labour
1972: (jan) National change to Jack Marhall 1972: lose to Labour
1990: Labour change to Mike Moore 1990 lose to National
1997: National change to Jenny Shipley 1999 lose to Labour
2001 National change to Bill English 2002 : lose to Labour
2003 National change to Don Brash 2005 Lose to Labour
2016 National change to Bill English 2017 ?????

[fungus pudding]

Bill English, having grown up on a farm would have been reliable with a hammer. Mind you, Helen Clarke being a dairy farmers daughter was probably ok to.

A bit of historical perpective regadring next years general election

1957: National change leader to Keith Holyoake : 1957: lose to Labour
1972: (jan) National change to Jack Marhall 1972: lose to Labour
1990: Labour change to Mike Moore 1990 lose to National
1997: National change to Jenny Shipley 1999 lose to Labour
2001 National change to Bill English 2002 : lose to Labour
2003 National change to Don Brash 2005 Lose to Labour
2016 National change to Bill English 2017 ?????


Historical perspective by its very definition has nothing to do with any forthcoming election, which will be lost by Labour unless they find a leader.

[Sgt Pepper]

Historical perspective by its very definition has nothing to do with any forthcoming election, which will be lost by Labour unless they find a leader.

We shall see.

[RGR367]

Bill English, having grown up on a farm would have been reliable with a hammer. Mind you, Helen Clarke being a dairy farmers daughter was probably ok to.

A bit of historical perpective regadring next years general election

1957: National change leader to Keith Holyoake : 1957: lose to Labour
1972: (jan) National change to Jack Marhall 1972: lose to Labour
1990: Labour change to Mike Moore 1990 lose to National
1997: National change to Jenny Shipley 1999 lose to Labour
2001 National change to Bill English 2002 : lose to Labour
2003 National change to Don Brash 2005 Lose to Labour
2016 National change to Bill English 2017 ?????

??? Since it will just be National losing is what you're infering , the above has no point of merit actually considering the future is yet to happen. I'm here hoping you're not doing your stocks' selections' by this method too :scared: Anyway, GL.

[elZorro]

Bill English, having grown up on a farm would have been reliable with a hammer. Mind you, Helen Clarke being a dairy farmers daughter was probably ok to.

A bit of historical perpective regadring next years general election

1957: National change leader to Keith Holyoake : 1957: lose to Labour
1972: (jan) National change to Jack Marhall 1972: lose to Labour
1990: Labour change to Mike Moore 1990 lose to National
1997: National change to Jenny Shipley 1999 lose to Labour
2001 National change to Bill English 2002 : lose to Labour
2003 National change to Don Brash 2005 Lose to Labour
2016 National change to Bill English 2017 ?????

That's a good bit of work there, Sgt Pepper. It points out the low likelihood of National's new leader being accepted as such, by the voters. There have been some devastating political cartoons about John Key's stepping down, and while looking for one, I found this page on all the tax haven cartoons.

http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2016/04/new-zealand-cartoons-about-tax-transparency-and-the-panama-papers.html


Which we all seem to have forgotten about, but John Key has never released his personal tax details, and probably most of the tax evading structures for big corporates are still in place. This must all be part of the heat that JK was feeling in the job.

Maybe Labour will bring out some good policy ideas on tax evasion, before the next election.

[blackcap]

That's a good bit of work there, Sgt Pepper. It points out the low likelihood of National's new leader being accepted as such, by the voters. There have been some devastating political cartoons about John Key's stepping down, and while looking for one, I found this page on all the tax haven cartoons.

http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2016/04/new-zealand-cartoons-about-tax-transparency-and-the-panama-papers.html


Which we all seem to have forgotten about, but John Key has never released his personal tax details, and probably most of the tax evading structures for big corporates are still in place. This must all be part of the heat that JK was feeling in the job.

Maybe Labour will bring out some good policy ideas on tax evasion, before the next election.

What a load of tosh. That above table looks like a sample of coin tosses to me.... likelihood does not change because something has happened in the past.

That said, I think National's chances this election are a bit less since Key stepped down... but not because he stepped down, but because Bill is a slightly worse candidate than John would have been. Still cannot vote for Labour with that goon Angry Andy as its leader. The by-election will be interesting to watch as the Greens and Labour squabble. I wish National voters would vote green just to upset the cart a bit.

[elZorro]

That said, I think National's chances this election are a bit less since Key stepped down...


I agree with that, at least. Found the Moreu cartoon online. The white flag of surrender.
Also note: flag referendum $22mill, Mt Albert by-election $1mill. So let's not hear any more about Labour costing the taxpayer heaps of money.

[craic]

The joke has changed - from How many "whatevers doe it take to change a light bulb" to how many Labour MP's does it take to change a leader.

[BlackPeter]

The joke has changed - from How many "whatevers doe it take to change a light bulb" to how many Labour MP's does it take to change a leader.

Its not that easy ... given that the unions have a big say about who is the next Labour leader. I hear that more conservative union members love to vote for inept people as Labour leaders, just to make sure National stays in power. Cunliffe was an outstanding example for the success of this strategy and Little follows closely in Cunliffe's footsteps.

[artemis]

........ The by-election will be interesting to watch as the Greens and Labour squabble. I wish National voters would vote green just to upset the cart a bit.

Are you suggesting they vote ALCP? That would be voting green. Not Green. Now that would be fun.

[elZorro]

Latest Roy Morgan Poll shows Labour-Greens closing the gap quickly, and this was from a polling period that spanned John Key's resignation announcement on 5th December.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7107-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-december-2016-201612211126

Of course about 1 in 20 of these polls can be rogue - they have a lowish sampling number to keep it economical. The next polls could be interesting.

Simon Wilson got most of it right.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/320005/that-leadership-'election'-have-we-just-been-played

[fungus pudding]

Latest Roy Morgan Poll shows Labour-Greens closing the gap quickly, and this was from a polling period that spanned John Key's resignation announcement on 5th December.



Don't let it spoil your Christmas eZ. Like you, most of us realise the threat of a Labour/Green government is just too horrifying, so we won't let it happen. Relax.

[elZorro]

Don't let it spoil your Christmas eZ. Like you, most of us realise the threat of a Labour/Green government is just too horrifying, so we won't let it happen. Relax.

What are the Greens going to do, FP? We already know what Labour would do, they'd make NZ a more equal society, so obviously that's scary for you, being a rentier. That's OK, but you only have one vote. It'll be up to the Labour-Greens to market themselves to the rest of NZ, maybe this time with a bit of help from the press, and some extra funds.

[fungus pudding]

What are the Greens going to do, FP? We already know what Labour would do, they'd make NZ a more equal society, so obviously that's scary for you, being a rentier. That's OK, but you only have one vote. It'll be up to the Labour-Greens to market themselves to the rest of NZ, maybe this time with a bit of help from the press, and some extra funds.

You're not telling us that Labour intend to take money from people who have earned it and give it to those who haven't earned it, are you? Pickle me ! No wonder you're worried!

[westerly]

You're not telling us that Labour intend to take money from people who have earned it and give it to those who haven't earned it, are you? Pickle me ! No wonder you're worried!

Not sure you are worth preserving FP ?
English did not drop his old mate Nick, shows loyalty to your friends I suppose, still talking about tax cuts, looks like the same old National thing with out happy John.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

Not sure you are worth preserving FP ?
English did not drop his old mate Nick, shows loyalty to your friends I suppose, still talking about tax cuts, looks like the same old National thing with out happy John.

westerly


Yes, you and I both hope so.

[winner69]

Not sure you are worth preserving FP ?
English did not drop his old mate Nick, shows loyalty to your friends I suppose, still talking about tax cuts, looks like the same old National thing with out happy John.

westerly

Yep - that seems to be the new slogan Nats are using 'continuity with change'

[Sgt Pepper]

Don't let it spoil your Christmas eZ. Like you, most of us realise the threat of a Labour/Green government is just too horrifying, so we won't let it happen. Relax.

I know. Apparently they have ordered guillotines for every town centre and all the peasants will be issued with pitchforks.
But what's even worse...... they might even abolish tax deductions for property investors. Oh my god the world would end if that happened!! Imagine that, having the audacity to ask that everyone pays their fair share of running a civilised society. What next. it all started with those crazy lefties abolishing slavery in 1836

[fungus pudding]

I know. Apparently they have ordered guillotines for every town centre, all the peasants will be issued with pitchforks. But what's even worse...... they might even abolish tax deductions for property investors. Oh my god the world would end if that happened

Property investors are taxed on profit. There are no tax deductions for property investors, so no chance to abolish them.

[fungus pudding]

I know. Apparently they have ordered guillotines for every town centre and all the peasants will be issued with pitchforks.
But what's even worse...... they might even abolish tax deductions for property investors. Oh my god the world would end if that happened!! Imagine that, having the audacity to ask that everyone pays their fair share of running a civilised society. What next. it all started with those crazy lefties abolishing slavery in 1836

I know exactly what you mean, and couldn't agree more. It's most unfair that some pay 30% or more, while some pay 15% or less. A flat tax is the way to make it fair. I'm pleased you agree.

[Sgt Pepper]

I know exactly what you mean, and couldn't agree more. It's most unfair that some pay 30% or more, while some pay 15% or less. A flat tax is the way to make it fair. I'm pleased you agree.

touche Fungus

Merry Christmas, looking forward to crossing swords in the New Year

[fungus pudding]

touche Fungus

Merry Christmas, looking forward to crossing swords in the New Year
Crossing swords- just when we are in perfect and harmonious agreement! !!? Oh well. Merry Christmas then :)

[elZorro]

Crossing swords- just when we are in perfect and harmonious agreement! !!? Oh well. Merry Christmas then :)

Yes, Season's Greetings to everyone, it'll be an interesting thread next year.

However, in answer to progressive taxes being better replaced with flat taxes, that has been tested on public perception and in general it doesn't go down well. There is a reason for progressive taxes being the chosen method throughout most of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax


FP, you could compare NZ to Australia, where they have a more progressive income tax by far, plus a capital gains tax. If I were you, I'd be happy with the status quo.:)

Trump goes nuts again.
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-us-nuclear-arsenal-weapons-tweets-expansion-bolster-world-senses-twitter-a7490846.html)

[fungus pudding]

Yes, Season's Greetings to everyone, it'll be an interesting thread next year.

However, in answer to progressive taxes being better replaced with flat taxes, that has been tested on public perception and in general it doesn't go down well. There is a reason for progressive taxes being the chosen method throughout most of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax


FP, you could compare NZ to Australia, where they have a more progressive income tax by far, plus a capital gains tax. If I were you, I'd be happy with the status quo.:)

Trump goes nuts again.
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-us-nuclear-arsenal-weapons-tweets-expansion-bolster-world-senses-twitter-a7490846.html)

Oh, I'm perfectly happy thank-you, which is not to say our taxation system is as good as it could be. But I will admit to being puzzled by your mention of Australia as an example of a progressive tax system at work in an economy. Their economy is stuffed while ours is the envy of the world.
However we can agree on Trump. He's a benighted madman; a megalomaniacal narcissist, and that's an explosive dangerous combination.
So best wishes for Christmas, and here's hoping the Republican party can control Trump, although I very much doubt it............ but someone will.

[iceman]

As always this section of ST has been a lot of fun this year and 99% of comments in good humour, despite very different views and beliefs.. The new year will be an election year so I suspect even more fun then. Wish all posters a happy festive season and a good 2017.

[elZorro]

As always this section of ST has been a lot of fun this year and 99% of comments in good humour, despite very different views and beliefs.. The new year will be an election year so I suspect even more fun then. Wish all posters a happy festive season and a good 2017.

Merry Christmas everyone- found a Christmas-themed political comment.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/87556772/alice-snedden-merry-christmas-new-zealand-heres-gareth-morgan

[Major von Tempsky]

Come Xmas 2017 no one will remember who Gareth Morgan was, other than that he wanted to kill cats and he was Sam Morgan's father and managed to make some money by going along for the ride with Sam.

[fungus pudding]

Come Xmas 2017 no one will remember who Gareth Morgan was, other than that he wanted to kill cats and he was Sam Morgan's father and managed to make some money by going along for the ride with Sam.

He's right about cats. Too many uncontrolled doing immeasurable harm. But poor old Gareth was hopeless at selling the message, just as he won't be able to sell his political theories. When it comes to charisma, he'd make a good match for a dish-cloth.

[dobby41]

Come Xmas 2017 no one will remember who Gareth Morgan was, other than that he wanted to kill cats and he was Sam Morgan's father and managed to make some money by going along for the ride with Sam.

To be fair he made his own money before riding on Sam's coat tail.

[westerly]

Come Xmas 2017 no one will remember who Gareth Morgan was, other than that he wanted to kill cats and he was Sam Morgan's father and managed to make some money by going along for the ride with Sam.

I suppose that is true of most economists. They won't be remembered. :)

westerly

[fungus pudding]

I suppose that is true of most economists. They won't be remembered. :)

westerly

It's true of most people. Why pick on economists?

[craic]

el Zorro Still in North Korea? He must be having a great time - must have had his laptop confiscated!

[Sgt Pepper]

Fears of a 'massive' global property price fall amid 'dangerous' conditions and market slow-down
From today's NZ Herald on OECD report. So that is why John Key bailed

[craic]

have a look at 29 Ripley gardens London. My Son has just sold it. Dropped the price along with the others in the chain so everyone is happy.

[Bjauck]

have a look at 29 Ripley gardens London. My Son has just sold it. Dropped the price along with the others in the chain so everyone is happy. Would the person at the top of the chain really be celebrating that they received less for their property?

[fungus pudding]

Fears of a 'massive' global property price fall amid 'dangerous' conditions and market slow-down
From today's NZ Herald on OECD report. So that is why John Key bailed

Yes, of course it is if you say so, although I'm not too sure why that would make anyone bail. It's just an inevitable thing in asset value cycles, and if it occurs in the near future whoever gets blamed, which should be the bankers, will get blamed whether they are still in their jobs or not.

[craic]

The person at the top of the chain got a five bedroom house at Richmond that he didn't think he could get. The price is not relevant.

[Bjauck]

The person at the top of the chain got a five bedroom house at Richmond that he didn't think he could get. The price is not relevant. So the chain ended with the sale of the Richmond house - the vendor was not purchasing another house? The price is relevant for the person selling the house as they received a lower sale price and it is relevant for the buyer as the lower price may have meant he could then afford it.

If the person at the end of the chain is a Kiwi who is returning to NZ, then as they had to accept a lower price then they will have less money to bring back to NZ. Plus they will find Brexit has slashed the exchange rate as well!

Brexit uncertainties are forecast to hit London house prices:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-25/london-house-prices-forecast-to-plunge-as-brexit-chokes-market

[craic]

The Richmond seller was able to lower his price because the person he was buying from lowered his price. The amounts are irrelevant because none of the links in that chain are likely to go hungry.

[BlackPeter]

The Richmond seller was able to lower his price because the person he was buying from lowered his price. The amounts are irrelevant because none of the links in that chain are likely to go hungry.

You find me confused. How is any of this related to National winning?

[Bjauck]

The Richmond seller was able to lower his price because the person he was buying from lowered his price. The amounts are irrelevant because none of the links in that chain are likely to go hungry. From bottom to top of the chain, do you know their individual circumstances?

[craic]

They live and work in London and are buying houses in the million pound plus range - What more do you need to know?

[westerly]

You find me confused. How is any of this related to National winning?

I may have missed something but I am also wondering about the relevance of a chain to to National winning ? Is Richmond in ChCh ? House prices have certainly increased.

westerly

[Bjauck]

I may have missed something but I am also wondering about the relevance of a chain to to National winning ? Is Richmond in ChCh ? House prices have certainly increased.

westerly The relevance of the sale of a house in London to National winning....maybe only if indicates Kiwis selling up in a falling house market in a stagnant London post-Brexit economy to return to NZ...to boost the chance of National electoral success? Tenuous relevance - I am sorry for perpetuating the tangent..

[elZorro]

I couldn't help but notice the National Party appears to have been dragged into the Sir Peter Leitch affair. Michelle Boag offered her media skills to front the camera, and proceeded to inflame the situation. Sir Peter thinks the world of John Key, apparently.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11776797

[fungus pudding]

I couldn't help but notice the National Party appears to have been dragged into the Sir Peter Leitch affair. Michelle Boag offered her media skills to front the camera, and proceeded to inflame the situation. Sir Peter thinks the world of John Key, apparently.


Yes. Most people do.

[Bjauck]

Yes. Most people do. As reported in the NZH, Nikki Kaye appreciated his support after her cancer diagnosis.

[elZorro]

As reported in the NZH, Nikki Kaye appreciated his support after her cancer diagnosis.

I'm not saying John Key is completely immoral or without empathy. He is part geek, part successful senior employee, and more of a politician than he is a statesman.

I think some valid points have been made about John Key's timing of his abdication. He will be more aware than most, if there is a property price crash coming soon. If that is true, it suggests that we'll start clearly noticing it, before the middle of 2017.

My point was that there seems to be some kind of a link between people who appear to think along the lines of Sir Peter Leitch, and the National Party. Why else would one of their senior spokespersons wade into the fray, unless she is acting as a private person, and not as a representative of the National Party? It's so hard to tell whether she's wearing that hat or not, isn't it? ;)

[BlackPeter]

I'm not saying John Key is completely immoral or without empathy. He is part geek, part successful senior employee, and more of a politician than he is a statesman.

I think some valid points have been made about John Key's timing of his abdication. He will be more aware than most, if there is a property price crash coming soon. If that is true, it suggests that we'll start clearly noticing it, before the middle of 2017.

My point was that there seems to be some kind of a link between people who appear to think along the lines of Sir Peter Leitch, and the National Party. Why else would one of their senior spokespersons wade into the fray, unless she is acting as a private person, and not as a representative of the National Party? It's so hard to tell whether she's wearing that hat or not, isn't it? ;)

Happy new Year EZ! And this leads me to my point ... you realise that John Key is so 2016 - don't you?

If Labour wants to get at least some attention with the electorate this year, than they better focus on the future instead of whinging about the people who did beat them in the past ... :p

I wish all of us that New Zealand will move this year from a country with only one sort of electable party (well, there is ACT as well) without real alternative to a country with a great government as well as with a great, positive and constructive opposition. Lots of work to do for the Left - look into the future and for a start - stop whinging about your (Labours) sad past!

[fungus pudding]

I'm not saying John Key is completely immoral or without empathy. He is part geek, part successful senior employee, and more of a politician than he is a statesman.

I think some valid points have been made about John Key's timing of his abdication. He will be more aware than most, if there is a property price crash coming soon. If that is true, it suggests that we'll start clearly noticing it, before the middle of 2017.

My point was that there seems to be some kind of a link between people who appear to think along the lines of Sir Peter Leitch, and the National Party. Why else would one of their senior spokespersons wade into the fray, unless she is acting as a private person, and not as a representative of the National Party? It's so hard to tell whether she's wearing that hat or not, isn't it? ;)

You do worry about the strangest of things eZ, so I'll try and help you out.
Michelle Boag was under strict instructions from the National party to describe this woman as coffee coloured. Just as Leitch was personally told by John Key, Bill English and of course Crombie Texter, to tell everyone that Waiheke was a white man's island. The definite link between Peter Leitch and the National party is quite clear. The attendees at a National party fund raiser were once seen eating sausages which may have come from the mad butcher himself. This requires further investigation. Perhaps Nicky Hagar could get right on to it. As far as John Key bailing because of the coming property crash - of course that is the reason. Sell your house immediately or suffer the consequences. As far as Boag goes, of course she wasn't acting as a private person or as a PR consultant to the butcher, even though that is her occupation. No, this was part of her role as a senior National party spokeswoman. I have all this on extremely good authority.
Anything else I can clarify for you - just ask.

[Sgt Pepper]

You do worry about the strangest of things eZ, so I'll try and help you out.
Michelle Boag was under strict instructions from the National party to describe this woman as coffee coloured. Just as Leitch was personally told by John Key, Bill English and of course Crombie Texter, to tell everyone that Waiheke was a white man's island. The definite link between Peter Leitch and the National party is quite clear. The attendees at a National party fund raiser were once seen eating sausages which may have come from the mad butcher himself. This requires further investigation. Perhaps Nicky Hagar could get right on to it. As far as John Key bailing because of the coming property crash - of course that is the reason. Sell your house immediately or suffer the consequences. As far as Boag goes, of course she wasn't acting as a private person or as a PR consultant to the butcher, even though that is her occupation. No, this was part of her role as a senior National party spokeswoman. I have all this on extremely good authority.
Anything else I can clarify for you - just ask.

Not true Fungus. National Party fundraising in Auckland is done at Antoines Restaurant. I dont think they serve sausages there, but I could be wrong.

[winner69]

Not true Fungus. National Party fundraising in Auckland is done at Antoines Restaurant. I dont think they serve sausages there, but I could be wrong.

You get a black rice, chicken and aubergine sausage with the quail at Antione's

Good guy is Tony

[fungus pudding]

Not true Fungus. National Party fundraising in Auckland is done at Antoines Restaurant. I dont think they serve sausages there, but I could be wrong.

I heard he couriered sausages to their Greymouth annual ball.

[craic]

The Mad Butcher did not say "this is a white man's island" to the slightly Maori woman. He said "this is a white mans island also". If you heard her expletive riddled statement, broadcast the other morning you would believe that in her culture every full stop, comma or other punctuation mark must be replaced by the F**** word.

[Raz]

I'm not saying John Key is completely immoral or without empathy. He is part geek, part successful senior employee, and more of a politician than he is a statesman.

I think some valid points have been made about John Key's timing of his abdication. He will be more aware than most, if there is a property price crash coming soon. If that is true, it suggests that we'll start clearly noticing it, before the middle of 2017.

My point was that there seems to be some kind of a link between people who appear to think along the lines of Sir Peter Leitch, and the National Party. Why else would one of their senior spokespersons wade into the fray, unless she is acting as a private person, and not as a representative of the National Party? It's so hard to tell whether she's wearing that hat or not, isn't it? ;)

Look it is small group of influencers in this country, in Auckland you are talking in the hundreds, everyone knows everyone..one reason I looked at having interest offshore..such a small group here..way to small and way to much group think stymied this country for a long time. Does my head in.

Banter seemed both ways (which never works out well..silly silly) and her comments if correct were in the same category..just victim PC BS again.

[Bjauck]

The Mad Butcher did not say "this is a white man's island" to the slightly Maori woman. He said "this is a white mans island also". If you heard her expletive riddled statement, broadcast the other morning you would believe that in her culture every full stop, comma or other punctuation mark must be replaced by the F**** word. Is she Irish then? She sounds like that Mrs Brown character. She's great crack/craic when she gets going in full flight too. Great gas.

[craic]

Mrs brown knows how to use the word - This silly woman doesn't know any other word. "Mrs Brown's" mother was a leading figure in the Irish Hotel Workers union. My uncle Frank Purcell (Senator) was head of that union and general Secretary of the Irish Transport and General Workers union for decades. So be careful - you're treading on very f******thin ice here!

[Bjauck]

...So be careful - you're treading on very f******thin ice here! Why?

The TV Dubliner, Mrs Brown is a fictional comic creation of O'Carroll probably based more on the performances of Les Dawson, an Englishman from Manchester, than on his own mother. The "slightly Maori" woman, whose "culture" you are critiquing is not fictional. Should a comic creation be sacrosanct but an actual NZ person and her "culture" be fair game?

Mrs Brown: http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/real-family-behind-mrs-browns-7064865
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/77917838/mrs-browns-brendan-ocarroll-on-his-own-mammy

[craic]

Read the book. The real mother of this Dublin writer and comedian was a very real person who was very active in the union. There is no suggestion in my post that the character was based on his mother. Nobody is sacrosanct in my view and certainly Mrs Brown would agree with me - if she existed. But when a part Maori young woman starts waving her version of her culture around peppered with obsceneties, I will defend the cultures of the East Coast Maori that I have been involved with for several decades and distinguish "her culture" from the rest.

[Bjauck]

Read the book. The real mother of this Dublin writer and comedian was a very real person who was very active in the union. There is no suggestion in my post that the character was based on his mother. Nobody is sacrosanct in my view and certainly Mrs Brown would agree with me - if she existed. But when a part Maori young woman starts waving her version of her culture around peppered with obsceneties, I will defend the cultures of the East Coast Maori that I have been involved with for several decades and distinguish "her culture" from the rest. My bad, I just cannot understand or follow your posts.

[elZorro]

Look it is small group of influencers in this country, in Auckland you are talking in the hundreds, everyone knows everyone..one reason I looked at having interest offshore..such a small group here..way to small and way to much group think stymied this country for a long time. Does my head in.

Banter seemed both ways (which never works out well..silly silly) and her comments if correct were in the same category..just victim PC BS again.

Maybe Bevan Hurley got most of it right in this article today, SST.

[iceman]

So English has started the the election year by announcing he will not attend the "cringe" worthy gathering at Waitangi on Waitangi Day. Definitely moving a little away from Key's attitude and stamping his own mark. Good on him I say.

[blackcap]

You do realise El Zorro that Sir Peter Leitch said "also" after the white mans island bit. That changes things. In my opinion Lara is just an attention seeker. I have see the full video and it is cringeworthy in the extreme in addition to invalidating her story in the Msm.

[BlackPeter]

Maybe Bevan Hurley got most of it right in this article today, SST.

Sounds like fake news to me. Taking a leaf out of Trumps book? Sir Peter said "this is a white men's island, too" and the swearing lady either missed the "too" or worse - she intentionally dropped it in order to get her moment of fame in the media.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11776531

[elZorro]

Sounds like fake news to me. Taking a leaf out of Trumps book? Sir Peter said "this is a white men's island, too" and the swearing lady either missed the "too" or worse - she intentionally dropped it in order to get her moment of fame in the media.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11776531

Hard to prove either way since there would be no recording of the incident. The tone of the conversation would have been important. But I guess quite a few of that family witnessed it, in which case it would be Sir Peter Leitch's word against several others, if they were all in agreement.

Sometimes I realise that the odds are stacked in favour of the white males in NZ, which is perhaps good since I'm one, too.

Bill English doesn't want to go to the Waitangi celebrations for fear of being in another incident, so he'll refuse to hear those points of view.

DairyNZ's appeal to the standards office over the Greenpeace river quality ad gets rebuffed, but they'll try again on behalf of Fonterra and all the landholder farmers who are subsidised for their pollution and pay hardly any taxes generally.

Locally, Hamilton's new mayor, a white male of course, narrowly got in ahead of a progressive, competent female with lots of local body experience. The new mayor (Andrew King) immediately got rid of any community advisers who advised council on specific areas of their interest. He's also against the river esplanade project for council funding, so Hamilton will be going nowhere fast for the next three years. Of course his modus operandi wasn't advised to voters before he squeaked in, by just under ten votes.

[Major von Tempsky]

Hmmm, sounds to me like the Mayor of Hamilton will be re-elected by a much bigger vote from what you say.

Something reminds me of when Helen Clark was reduced to tears and refused to go back to Waitangi.

After the sheer cheek and insolence of these Waitangi ratbags to the elected Prime Minister of New Zealand I would recommend that (1) Bill English doesn't return to Waitangi no matter what, even a grovelling apology, but tour other centres which have been missing out such as O'Kains Bay, the South Island Waitangi Treaty centre and (2) all Government funding to the Waitangi celebration be immediately stopped, permanently (3) we revert to a New Zealand Day again (wasn't it Norman Kirk who instituted that?) . The average NZer is sick and tired of all these professional troublemaker beneficiaries wrecking the Waitangi occasion and they need to be sent a strong, unmistakeable and permanent message!

[BlackPeter]

Hmmm, sounds to me like the Mayor of Hamilton will be re-elected by a much bigger vote from what you say.

Something reminds me of when Helen Clark was reduced to tears and refused to go back to Waitangi.

After the sheer cheek and insolence of these Waitangi ratbags to the elected Prime Minister of New Zealand I would recommend that (1) Bill English doesn't return to Waitangi no matter what, even a grovelling apology, but tour other centres which have been missing out such as O'Kains Bay, the South Island Waitangi Treaty centre and (2) all Government funding to the Waitangi celebration be immediately stopped, permanently (3) we revert to a New Zealand Day again (wasn't it Norman Kirk who instituted that?) . The average NZer is sick and tired of all these professional troublemaker beneficiaries wrecking the Waitangi occasion and they need to be sent a strong, unmistakeable and permanent message!

Well said, I second that ...

[fungus pudding]

Well said, I second that ...

Damn. I'll have to go third.

[iceman]

I think a huge majority of Kiwis would agree with MVT's comments above

[Bjauck]

...After the sheer cheek and insolence of these Waitangi ratbags to the elected Prime Minister of New Zealand I would recommend that (1) Bill English doesn't return to Waitangi no matter what, even a grovelling apology, but tour other centres which have been missing out such as O'Kains Bay, the South Island Waitangi Treaty centre
Respect definitely begets respect. Good idea to spread the commemorations around the country to other Treaty locales.


and (2) all Government funding to the Waitangi celebration be immediately stopped, permanently Spread the funding to the various other places marking the day.


(3) we revert to a New Zealand Day again (wasn't it Norman Kirk who instituted that?) . The average NZer is sick and tired of all these professional troublemaker beneficiaries wrecking the Waitangi occasion and they need to be sent a strong, unmistakeable and permanent message! If it is held on 6th February, then it would still commemorate the signing of the Treaty and attract debate on the direction NZ has taken since 1840. If there is a change in name, I would prefer Aotearoa New Zealand Day to reflect the two official written languages.

[winner69]

The Journal of Democracy has had a series of articles discussing whether democracy is in decline.

it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation.

[Bjauck]

The Journal of Democracy has had a series of articles discussing whether democracy is in decline.

it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation. Maybe it would depend on how it hits them financially. If Brexit and Trump start to hurt living standards, maybe the mainstream won't look so bad for many who gave them a try.

[craic]

To summarise the above post, the new Mayor is not Labour - the "progressive competent female" is.

[fungus pudding]

If it is held on 6th February, then it would still commemorate the signing of the Treaty and attract debate on the direction NZ has taken since 1840. If there is a change in name, I would prefer Aotearoa New Zealand Day to reflect the two official written languages.

I wouldn't. New Zealand day reflects everything it needs to. We are all New Zealanders - full stop. While I'm at it - Is it really balanced to have every new place name a Maori word? New Zealand is the name of this country and I am strongly against this desire to name it Aotearoa New Zealand or even worse, Aotearoa, because there is no point in changing a name. It's taken forever - and John Key, to get New Zealand recognised around the globe. I don't know who is behind it, but so many of those scroll down list of country names now show Aotearoa New Zealand, and give no alternative but to choose that when your address is required. That's silly stuff that helps no-one.

[Bjauck]

I wouldn't. New Zealand day reflects everything it needs to. We are all New Zealanders - full stop. While I'm at it - Is it really balanced to have every new place name a Maori word? New Zealand is the name of this country and I am strongly against this desire to name it Aotearoa New Zealand or even worse, Aotearoa, because there is no point in changing a name. It's taken forever - and John Key, to get New Zealand recognised around the globe. I don't know who is behind it, but so many of those scroll down list of country names now show Aotearoa New Zealand, and give no alternative but to choose that when your address is required. That's silly stuff that helps no-one.
We are not all NZers...many people who are entitled to vote in NZ are not NZ citizens. Hold the horses anyway - I was suggesting Aotearoa NZ Day for a possible new name (if it's needed) for the national holiday not as a replacement for the name of the country! It would reflect the fact that the modern country of NZ with two official spoken languages is based on a Treaty with two sides, one local the other overseas. What is the objection to Aotearoa? It is a good descriptive name unique to this bit of the World and not the name produced by the Dutch East Indies Cartographer by adding "New" to a Dutch province.

For what it's worth anyway, there have been plenty of other people prior to John Key who have brought recognition for the country. Rewi Alley, Keith Park, Rutherford, Sir Ed, Fred Hollows & David Lange to name but six. Satisfactory PM he may have been, but if John Key has actually raised the NZ profile permanently any more than previous Kiwis, I would be surprised.

[elZorro]

To summarise the above post, the new Mayor is not Labour - the "progressive competent female" is.

Probably, although Hamilton candidates for local bodies tend to hide their allegiances, the tickets are not obvious. Andrew King has started to look a lot like a Tory though.

http://www.paulasouthgate.co.nz/page/about-paula/

The Esplanade Project has been talked about for over 16 years.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=128694

Andrew King: one of his big messages was "transparency?"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11725255

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hamilton-news/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503366&objectid=11749986

[fungus pudding]

Probably, although Hamilton candidates for local bodies tend to hide their allegiances, the tickets are not obvious. Andrew King has started to look a lot like a Tory though.



The other day you were upset with the mad butcher and his spokeswoman, because for some inexplicable reason you thought someone was associated with the National party. Now it's the mayor of somewhere who looks like a tory, which is a political type found in Britain.
Paranoia is kicking in early this year eZ. Hopefully you've got a holiday coming up - take it.

[elZorro]

The other day you were upset with the mad butcher and his spokeswoman, because for some inexplicable reason you thought someone was associated with the National party. Now it's the mayor of somewhere who looks like a tory, which is a political type found in Britain.
Paranoia is kicking in early this year eZ. Hopefully you've got a holiday coming up - take it.

It wasn't inexplicable, Michelle Boag was a former President of the National Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Boag), and always pulls down Labour and upholds National whenever she gets the chance on TV.

For your edification, I think of a Tory as:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tory

[fungus pudding]

It wasn't inexplicable, Michelle Boag was a former President of the National Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Boag), and always pulls down Labour and upholds National whenever she gets the chance on TV.

For your edification, I think of a Tory as:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tory


Her comments had nothing to do with National, or Labour or butchers in general, or moonies for that matter. It was about a rather silly woman who had too much to say.
As far as Tories go, I don't think I have ever met a wealthy person with a disdain for people of 'a lower class'. That's a pommy thing.
If you look hard at today's paper you might just find someone who is a National supporter, or worse still, a member, has said something about someone or something. That should feed the paranoia for the rest of the week.

[elZorro]

Her comments had nothing to do with National, or Labour or butchers in general, or moonies for that matter. It was about a rather silly woman who had too much to say.
As far as Tories go, I don't think I have ever met a wealthy person with a disdain for people of 'a lower class'. That's a pommy thing.
If you look hard at today's paper you might just find someone who is a National supporter, or worse still, a member, has said something about someone or something. That should feed the paranoia for the rest of the week.

I think if you look carefully, you'll see some people acting like tories in many parts of their lives.

Following on from my post the other day -Rachel Stewart has a commentary on DairyNZ's behaviour towards the state of the environment. She makes some very good points.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11779636&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Wednesday+1 1+January+2017

Maybe I'm paranoid, but Rachel Stewart is looking at it another way.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11722306

[dobby41]

Following on from my post the other day -Rachel Stewart has a commentary on DairyNZ's behaviour towards the state of the environment. She makes some very good points.

My first thought on reading that opinion piece was tobacco companies.
They made a lot of noise in denial for a long time also.
Dairy is dirty - end of story.
Is the outcome worth the income?

[fungus pudding]

I think if you look carefully, you'll see some people acting like tories in many parts of their lives.


No I won't. Unless you mean the way most people won't drink in the pub frequented by the mongrel mob.
Other than that sort of healthy prejudices we do not have a class system, so we do not have Tories in NZ.

[westerly]

No I won't.
we do not have a class system, so we do not have Tories in NZ.

You must be be naive, along with a deep seated fear of the left.
westerly

[Bjauck]

I see UDC has been sold by ANZ (an Australian company) to a Chinese Company. It is a pity that it remains in foreign ownership. Although not applicable to this UDC sale, there seem to have been many businesses that have ended up being delisted from the NZX and in foreign ownership. It got me wondering. Under John Key's prime ministership, I wonder how the change in value of the NZ stock exchange capitalisation compared with the change in value of the residential housing stock.

Did NZ end up preferring real estate investment over business investment during John Key's leadership? If so, is that a good thing? Should John Key (& the National Party) have introduced policies to counteract any (social and fiscal) bias towards real estate investment?

[Bjauck]

No I won't. Unless you mean the way most people won't drink in the pub frequented by the mongrel mob.
Other than that sort of healthy prejudices we do not have a class system, so we do not have Tories in NZ. I think it's coming. At the moment it is based on inherited wealth - but social differences are appearing - even differences in accent.

[Major von Tempsky]

I'm inclined to back Fungus - there are 2 immediate examples in the House, John Key brought up by a solo mother in a Chch state house, Paula Bennett a solo 17 year old mother on a benefit, I'm sure people can quote others. Then we have inverted snobs such as Chris Trotter who had an extremely good education, is well read and yet is determined to be a socialist, part of the lower classes where he sticks out like a sore thumb.

[fungus pudding]

You must be be naive, along with a deep seated fear of the left.
westerly

Not at all. I find the lefties I know fascinate me, driven by envy, and greed to share others' endeavours, just fascinating. They don't frighten me at all. They have played their part (as have National) in developing social systems to protect those who can't help themselves. I'm 100% behind that. A good social security system certainly is good for society as well as the deserving recipients. The problem is with many, but not all, that once they've got a bit of rope they always want more, and worst of all, some actually believe the govt. somehow can provide better than anything or anyone else. Amen.

[westerly]

I'm inclined to back Fungus - there are 2 immediate examples in the House, John Key brought up by a solo mother in a Chch state house, Paula Bennett a solo 17 year old mother on a benefit, I'm sure people can quote others. Then we have inverted snobs such as Chris Trotter who had an extremely good education, is well read and yet is determined to be a socialist, part of the lower classes where he sticks out like a sore thumb.

Lower classes? But Fungus said there is no class system in NZ.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

Lower classes? But Fungus said there is no class system in NZ.

westerly

Because there isn't. Of course people can be and are grouped into classes, but that's not a class system, which often is based on the family you are born into. That's the system that produces those uppity poms who look down their noses at others and are rightfully called Tories.

[elZorro]

I see UDC has been sold by ANZ (an Australian company) to a Chinese Company. It is a pity that it remains in foreign ownership. Although not applicable to this UDC sale, there seem to have been many businesses that have ended up being delisted from the NZX and in foreign ownership. It got me wondering. Under John Key's prime ministership, I wonder how the change in value of the NZ stock exchange capitalisation compared with the change in value of the residential housing stock.

Did NZ end up preferring real estate investment over business investment during John Key's leadership? If so, is that a good thing? Should John Key (& the National Party) have introduced policies to counteract any (social and fiscal) bias towards real estate investment?

That's a good point. I know they haven't really helped small business, just put up a few road blocks and downscaled the funds. Plus emasculated the research areas.

[fungus pudding]

That's a good point. I know they haven't really helped small business, just put up a few road blocks and downscaled the funds. Plus emasculated the research areas.

Quite so eZ. I've heard they are going to legislate that all SMEs Will be closed down.

[elZorro]

Quite so eZ. I've heard they are going to legislate that all SMEs Will be closed down.

You're not out there doing it, are you FP? But it sounds like you know all about it. Have you waded through any paperwork lately?

[westerly]

. That's the system that produces those uppity poms who look down their noses at others and are rightfully called Tories.

MVT appears to qualify as a Tory. He cannot accept someone can be well educated and well read and yet belong to or relate to the lower classes.:)

westerly

[fungus pudding]

MVT appears to qualify as a Tory. He cannot accept someone can be well educated and well read and yet belong to or relate to the lower classes.:)

westerly

Oh yes he can, although he seems to struggle with plonkers.

[elZorro]

Oh yes he can, although he seems to struggle with plonkers.
MVT seems to struggle with getting his facts right sometimes.. like a few others.

Simon Bridges wholeheartedly supports KiwiRail ditching all its electric locomotives so they can buy more Chinese-made diesel ones. The drivers union seems keener on electric. Meanwhile Simon buys two electric cars, for himself and his wife, and gets himself in the press for being eco-friendly.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/88305288/union-slams-transport-minister-over-diesel-locos?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+12 +January+2017

[blackcap]

The drivers union seems keener on electric. [/URL]

Herein lies the problem EZ.. I too would do the diametrically opposed of what the union wanted.

[artemis]

You're not out there doing it, are you FP? But it sounds like you know all about it. Have you waded through any paperwork lately?

We have an SME (S rather than M). We have no permanent employees, just self employed contractors with no guaranteed hours. Usually they are young and come to us off the dole, as we only need a good work attitude and will teach them skills. In practice we go to a lot of effort to give them decent hours and make sure their taxes get paid. Some go on to apprenticeships. Over the years none have left because they are unhappy.

My point - there is no way we would take on all the hassle and paperwork of permies. If we had to take them on as permies, we would lay them off and scale back the business.

[fungus pudding]

We have an SME (S rather than M). We have no permanent employees, just self employed contractors with no guaranteed hours. Usually they are young and come to us off the dole, as we only need a good work attitude and will teach them skills. In practice we go to a lot of effort to give them decent hours and make sure their taxes get paid. Some go on to apprenticeships. Over the years none have left because they are unhappy.

My point - there is no way we would take on all the hassle and paperwork of permies. If we had to take them on as permies, we would lay them off and scale back the business.

Good on you. Youre certainly not alone. Employing staff is the biggest hassle any business has to cope with and legislation introduced over the years certainly hasn't helped. Always designed to 'help' the employee but actually does the opposite by slowing the country's businesses and of course GDP and reducing number of jobs available and other employee opportunities.

[Bjauck]

Because there isn't. Of course people can be and are grouped into classes, but that's not a class system, which often is based on the family you are born into. That's the system that produces those uppity poms who look down their noses at others and are rightfully called Tories. It is true NZ does not a have a House of Lords. However that has been reformed in the UK and elected governments stuffs the House of Lords with its appointees.

The UK is making efforts to overcome their legacy of their feudal system by stressing meritocracy - & they have death duties and capital gains taxes. NZ has neither of those so is in the process of building up a class (or segment of society if you will) that enjoys amassing capital and inheriting wealth (just as the UK upper classes did). Perhaps NZ is at the stage that mother England was a couple of hundred years after the Norman conquest with some long established land owning immigrant Pakeha families taking the place of the Norman gentry? Given time, increasing population and current policies this class will develop....the FitzPakeha are to the McMansion (Manor) born. Is 1840 NZ's 1066?

All those people with inherited wealth living in Remuera or Khandallah never are uppity when they consider their compatriots in Porirua or Otara. Pass the Tui!

What do you make of the rush of all the Helen Clark honorees rushing to claim their John Key knighthoods?

[Raz]

Herein lies the problem EZ.. I too would do the diametrically opposed of what the union wanted.

Well that is often a bad assumption...unions today seem very co-operative those that remain today...

[Raz]

We have an SME (S rather than M). We have no permanent employees, just self employed contractors with no guaranteed hours. Usually they are young and come to us off the dole, as we only need a good work attitude and will teach them skills. In practice we go to a lot of effort to give them decent hours and make sure their taxes get paid. Some go on to apprenticeships. Over the years none have left because they are unhappy.

My point - there is no way we would take on all the hassle and paperwork of permies. If we had to take them on as permies, we would lay them off and scale back the business.

Have a few businesses like this as well..it amazing how cheap talent is out there on this basis..down side is it kills the middle class and their purchasing power...

[elZorro]

Have a few businesses like this as well..it amazing how cheap talent is out there on this basis..down side is it kills the middle class and their purchasing power...

I like to contract uni students for special projects or manufacturing over the holidays, it gives them experience for their CVs, they usually pick up on things fast, and I can often help them secure their first real job later, with a reference. I am aware that programmers and other computer based skills are widely available through the web, they can be located anywhere, and that's a scary thought for some going into that area of training. But there are still plenty of jobs that need direct involvement and interaction in the workplace.

Back in early October 2016, Bill English was warning about interest rates looking like they were going to head back up. Over Christmas here, they did just that. Now all the banks are climbing on board. Interesting timing considering John Key's abdication, no?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11724396

Bill didn't spell out how ordinary folks would suddenly pay off their house loan before interest rates rose too much to make it even more difficult. I guess we just magic up some cash? in the real world, those who made the buying decision a short time ago, are now stuck with the consequences. There have been widespread mortgagee sales before.

[fungus pudding]

I like to contract uni students for special projects or manufacturing over the holidays, it gives them experience for their CVs, they usually pick up on things fast, and I can often help them secure their first real job later, with a reference. I am aware that programmers and other computer based skills are widely available through the web, they can be located anywhere, and that's a scary thought for some going into that area of training. But there are still plenty of jobs that need direct involvement and interaction in the workplace.

Back in early October 2016, Bill English was warning about interest rates looking like they were going to head back up. Over Christmas here, they did just that. Now all the banks are climbing on board. Interesting timing considering John Key's abdication, no?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11724396

Bill didn't spell out how ordinary folks would suddenly pay off their house loan before interest rates rose too much to make it even more difficult. I guess we just magic up some cash? in the real world, those who made the buying decision a short time ago, are now stuck with the consequences. There have been widespread mortgagee sales before.

The weather over Christmas has been slightly unsettled. Is that Bill's fault or John Key's? Interesting timing considering Key's abdication, no? Incidentally Bill English does not set interest rates. That must be a surprise to you. However, the odd reminder that borrowers take a risk is prudent. Even Muldoon, an economic nutter, used to warn about the exuberance of the share-market, and I can assure you he did not cause the '87 crash. Here is a wee project to take your mind of things for an hour or two, plot the real estate prices over the last 50 years, and you will find regular falls in values, and to my knowledge no Prime Minister ever told anyone how to pay off their mortgages when values fell, or when interest rates rose. Not even to your 'ordinary folks'. Shocking.

[dobby41]

elZorro would like this piece
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11781276
Especially these bits sprinkled throughout

Bloggers claimed that this had been the real reason behind John Key's shock resignation.

[fungus pudding]

elZorro would like this piece
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11781276
Especially these bits sprinkled throughout

Don't distract eZ. I've already given him a project for today. (post 11498)

[elZorro]

elZorro would like this piece
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11781276
Especially these bits sprinkled throughout

Toby got it a bit wrong, I reckon Labour will get in by the end of 2017. As for reasons for John Key resigning, there were probably several, a little bit of truth in every one. In any case it's quite fun, needling the right-wingers for once :).

[fungus pudding]

Toby got it a bit wrong, I reckon Labour will get in by the end of 2017. As for reasons for John Key resigning, there were probably several, a little bit of truth in every one. In any case it's quite fun, needling the right-wingers for once :).
Needling them? Talk about an understatement! You're terrifying them. Lay off.

[Baa_Baa]

Needling them? Talk about an understatement! You're terrifying them. Lay off.

No he's not, LOL. ;)

It's interesting in a sad way, to observe the desperate and dateless side of the political spectrum, exiled to impotence for what must seem an eternity until they find a leader who can attract and appeal to the populous and back it with credible policies that vindicate their ambitions for NZ. One or the other is not enough. Labour could well lose the opposition(!) at this rate, they have so Little going for them and nothing inspiring to say.