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fungus pudding
14-01-2017, 01:06 AM
No he's not, LOL. ;)


But he is! I actually know one of these people eZ calls a right winger. An acquaintance rather than a friend of course. (Nobody would admit to having a 'right winger' as a friend.) Nearly every time I see him he looks more pale and weak than the time before. I've often asked the cause of his sickness and it is because he's just read another of eZ's posts. It's getting worse. I only have to mention that eZ has posted again and he goes into a deep shock. Now he tells me his symptoms overcome him when he merely walks past a computer! Still it doesn't appear terminal and his phycologist is working on a solution. The only thing I could do would be to plead with eZ to stop this needling, but I doubt he would listen. He is a hardened leftie and thinks nothing of spreading fear into the hearts of the real people. Shame on you eZ.

elZorro
16-01-2017, 07:22 AM
But he is! I actually know one of these people eZ calls a right winger. An acquaintance rather than a friend of course. (Nobody would admit to having a 'right winger' as a friend.) Nearly every time I see him he looks more pale and weak than the time before. I've often asked the cause of his sickness and it is because he's just read another of eZ's posts. It's getting worse. I only have to mention that eZ has posted again and he goes into a deep shock. Now he tells me his symptoms overcome him when he merely walks past a computer! Still it doesn't appear terminal and his phycologist is working on a solution. The only thing I could do would be to plead with eZ to stop this needling, but I doubt he would listen. He is a hardened leftie and thinks nothing of spreading fear into the hearts of the real people. Shame on you eZ.

I'm only trying to balance up the discussion.. most of the time the lefties are on the receiving end.

This article is worth a read. It's increasingly true, a good part of some manufacturing or processing jobs can be replaced by a relatively cheap robot(s).

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/85489/technology-generating-products-unbeatably-low-costs-and-gains-accruing-very-few-oddly?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+16+J anuary+2017

fungus pudding
16-01-2017, 07:54 AM
I'm only trying to balance up the discussion.. most of the time the lefties are on the receiving end.

This article is worth a read. It's increasingly true, a good part of some manufacturing or processing jobs can be replaced by a relatively cheap robot(s).



Good heavens eZ. That is the kind of revelation that sends us into shock. Who would have thought that mechanisation and robotics would actually be able to do things. We're doomed.

BlackPeter
16-01-2017, 08:08 AM
I'm only trying to balance up the discussion.. most of the time the lefties are on the receiving end.

This article is worth a read. It's increasingly true, a good part of some manufacturing or processing jobs can be replaced by a relatively cheap robot(s).

http://www.interest.co.nz/business/85489/technology-generating-products-unbeatably-low-costs-and-gains-accruing-very-few-oddly?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Monday+16+J anuary+2017

Good article. Yes, the rapidly growing automatisation is clearly creating one of the largest industrial revolutions since the invention of the steam engine. Add to that in the next 2 decades the removal of hundreds of millions jobs for various drivers (taxi, truck, fire engines, ...) and we do have a socially explosive mixture, which creates already now monsters like Trump and the ugly BREXIT crowd. The disenfranchised elect their own executioners, as they did in the 1930'ies (for different reasons, though).

Managing this new industrial revolution is a Hercules task for society, and yes, it would be good for politicians to drive this.

What are Labours proposals other than to stop progress, tax the steam engine and keep the fireman on diesel trains?

winner69
16-01-2017, 11:35 AM
This was an interesting read

The Precariat, The New Dangerous Class by Guy Standing

The precariat is a growing class of people who are increasingly frustrated. They probably the ones who could vote for any 'extreme' political voice

Possibly many have been Labour voters in the past .......but not in the future making it even more unlikely Labour will govern again.

Only matter of time before a new 'extreme' political voice starts to have a real presene in NZ .....by 2020?

Bjauck
16-01-2017, 12:26 PM
This was an interesting read

The Precariat, The New Dangerous Class by Guy Standing

The precariat is a growing class of people who are increasingly frustrated. They probably the ones who could vote for any 'extreme' political voice

Possibly many have been Labour voters in the past .......but not in the future making it even more unlikely Labour will govern again.

Only matter of time before a new 'extreme' political voice starts to have a real presene in NZ .....by 2020? All change in politics? For those that don't think that a Trump or Brexit backlash could happen here, just look at falling home ownership rates and the widening gulfs between rich and poor - or the winners and losers in the NZ economy and society.
"The gap between the extremely wealthy and the rest of us is greater than we thought, both in New Zealand and around the world. It is trapping huge numbers of people in poverty and fracturing our societies"
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11782807

winner69
16-01-2017, 03:37 PM
I couldn't really understand whst this article was about but it seems to say Labour are has beens (in it's current state)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11783048

Bjauck
16-01-2017, 05:12 PM
I couldn't really understand whst this article was about but it seems to say Labour are has beens (in it's current state)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11783048 I did not take that from the article. The article canvassed a wide range of opinions. I understood that Labour is at a crossroads - will it be narrowly focussed as left of centre - or more of a party of broad appeal? If O'Connor stands will he help Labour appeal to a National Party type of voter?

westerly
16-01-2017, 05:45 PM
Good article. Yes, the rapidly growing automatisation is clearly creating one of the largest industrial revolutions since the invention of the steam engine. Add to that in the next 2 decades the removal of hundreds of millions jobs for various drivers (taxi, truck, fire engines, ...) and we do have a socially explosive mixture, which creates already now monsters like Trump and the ugly BREXIT crowd. The disenfranchised elect their own executioners, as they did in the 1930'ies (for different reasons, though).

Managing this new industrial revolution is a Hercules task for society, and yes, it would be good for politicians to drive this.

What are Labours proposals other than to stop progress, tax the steam engine and keep the fireman on diesel trains?

Not sure where you are coming from with your tirades against the results of seemingly free elections in the US and UK. Whatever you say can have no effect on the outcomes.
At least Labour in NZ have had a look at the future of work in NZ . National will react sometime when
it becomes obvious there is a crisis, but not before. Even then as with housing it will be left to the markets

westerly

elZorro
16-01-2017, 09:06 PM
Good article. Yes, the rapidly growing automatisation is clearly creating one of the largest industrial revolutions since the invention of the steam engine. Add to that in the next 2 decades the removal of hundreds of millions jobs for various drivers (taxi, truck, fire engines, ...) and we do have a socially explosive mixture, which creates already now monsters like Trump and the ugly BREXIT crowd. The disenfranchised elect their own executioners, as they did in the 1930'ies (for different reasons, though).

Managing this new industrial revolution is a Hercules task for society, and yes, it would be good for politicians to drive this.

What are Labours proposals other than to stop progress, tax the steam engine and keep the fireman on diesel trains?

I agree with Westerly, as usual, a carefully considered post. Planning under the "Future of Work" concept has been started, and Labour would be more likely to intervene in areas where the market doesn't perform well, like lower cost housing builds. Don't forget, National didn't turn up to a manufacturing conference that Labour and the Greens etc, organised. National hides from all the tricky questions.

elZorro
17-01-2017, 06:25 AM
Colin James had this post before Christmas, just after John Key resigned from being PM.


Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 13 December 2016

The post-Key balancing task facing PM English


Bill English and Paula Bennett are now assembling their ministry. Their task: to continue the Key government without Key but also to demonstrate they are not the Key-government-without-Key.

That is no small feat. Policy lurches would disorient supporters and look like a government no longer in control of the agenda. Too much of the same with minor tweaks would leave voters stuck in the Key era but without Key and highlight his successor's popularity deficit compared with the real thing.

English's charisma bypass is a match for Andrew Little's, who last week was smiling ear to ear. Winston Peters and James Shaw outpoint both.

Like Little, with English what you see is what you get -- but first people have to see him. Business, economists and policy wonks do see him and enthuse. But they are a small minority.

To pitch widely, English will need the presentational training he rejected when heading to his disastrous 2002 defeat.

Bouncy Bennett has media presence but is light on gravitas. She can turn off as well as on (ask any mayor). And she is not leader (yet).

They are unlikely to recreate the Key-decade complementarity in what was actually the Key-English government.

English was the conservative and Key the liberal, personifying National's dominant strands when at its strongest.

English was the behind-scenes heavy lifter in fiscal, economic and much social policy. Key was the presenter, calming, jollying and "selfie-ing" the public, including many who did not think of themselves as National.

They combined these differences in an operational mode English described to an Australian audience in mid-2015 as "incremental radicalism": incremental changes over time, none too frightening to too many horses, which cumulatively amount to radical change.

To the extent there is much to show for Key's often re-stated wish for his legacy to be what he did for disadvantaged children, it will be principally the result of English's work with various ministers, still very much work in progress. But Key did back him.

Key had a talent for easing out underperformers, non-performers and the politically ageing without eruptions or fractiousness. His 2014 cleanout meant just under a quarter of the current caucus came in in that election, including some of promotable calibre, for example, Todd Muller, Chris Bishop and Barbara Kuriger. They joined some able 2011-14-term arrivals.

So English and Bennett have the raw material to refresh the ministry so that it doesn't look too much like the Key-government-without-Key.

But to do that some politically ageing and less-performing ministers must depart. Have English and Bennett the authority Key would have had to do that? And, if they do it anyway, will the leavers go quietly?

Refreshment also implies policy change. English, Bennett and new Finance Minister Steven Joyce have to balance pointing towards a different-looking fourth-term government and not appearing to veer off course or have an attack of nerves.

Judith Collins and Jonathan Coleman in their brief trots last week implied English has been too tight-pursed in their portfolios, as a torrent of immigrants and an ageing population drive up costs.

Science and research got a Key-English-Joyce skimping. By 2020 state funding will have been static in GDP terms for a decade, far below the OECD average. (Last week's column, as originally filed before Key's skedaddle swept it aside, detailed this. It will be revisited in 2017.)

English and Joyce will be under pressure to be less sceptical on climate change. Bennett has made noises. Simon Bridges wants more action on transport and energy. Younger MPs -- and younger voters -- agree.

Global business does, too. Last month BlackRock, a massive no-greenie-haven fund manager, called on governments globally to make businesses pay a higher price for climate pollution and Aramco, Shell and seven other oil firms formed a consortium to develop renewable energy.

Other challenges among many include adjusting superannuation, responding to changes in "work" and earned income (where Labour is well ahead), getting coherence into scattered housing initiatives -- and being abreast of the Treasury's development of its living standards framework into a "wellbeing framework" which injects "people" into numbers-obsessed economics, as government economists discussed at a conference last week where English gave the opening keynote.

Add to this the election date conundrum -- and the election itself.

Unseen behind Labour's sad national opinion polls is now a substantial, mobilisable volunteer and funding base, which underpinned Labour's big win in Mt Roskill. On Sunday on Q&A Little and Shaw comfortably shared an interview, coalition-like.

That doesn't of itself doom English. But it is a wispy cloud on his horizon. Symbolically, as he held his acceptance press conference yesterday a cold southerly blew into Wellington. Southland had arrived -- and, with that, the end of National's golden weather?

Colin James, (64)-21-438 434, PO Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141, New Zealand ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000067/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000067/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

BlackPeter
17-01-2017, 07:22 AM
Not sure where you are coming from with your tirades against the results of seemingly free elections in the US and UK. Whatever you say can have no effect on the outcomes.
...
westerly


I agree with Westerly, as usual, a carefully considered post.
...


Sad.

But lets look at it. What is wrong with the outcome of "seemingly free" elections in the UK and the US". I guess it depends on your definition of democracy.

Democracy in my books is more than just the louder crowd shouting the rest of the country down ("lock her up"). Democracy is about protection of minorities vs an unruly mob chasing people with foreign accent through the streets of UK towns. Democracy is about the people making an informed decision based on facts .. not crowds voting based on fake news coming from the bigger liar.

Democracy is about respecting human rights including human dignity. Democracy is about freedom of suppression, independent of sex and race, and it is about protecting the right of free speech (even if you don't like what the other party has to say) vs. bullying the free media (as Trump is demonstrating).

Democracy is about protecting and respecting an independent jurisdiction, not - as recently in the UK the hate press calling judges who's verdict they didn't like as "enemies of the people". That's what the Nazis did as well.

Remember - most dictators (or lets call them autocrats, shall we) did at some stage win a democratic election. Putin, Hitler, Erdogan, even Mugabe. And sure - neither the UK nor the US are today where these tyrants ended. However - they both took the first steps into the wrong direction and they will need to be careful to protect their democracy.

What is wrong about the hateful BREXIT crowds and Trump who promised to make America hate again? Everything.

fungus pudding
17-01-2017, 08:10 AM
Colin James had this post before Christmas, just after John Key resigned from being PM.




A lot of people have opinions about things. The thing that stands out about Colin James is his dismal view of things; his negativity. Mind you he's not as bad as that other hero of yours, Rod Bore'em

Sgt Pepper
17-01-2017, 03:58 PM
A lot of people have opinions about things. The thing that stands out about Colin James is his dismal view of things; his negativity. Mind you he's not as bad as that other hero of yours, Rod Bore'em

Rod Oram: former Financial Times of London journalist. notorious socialist publication . Has the temerity to ask hard questions. How dare they. Lese majeste, it is.

fungus pudding
17-01-2017, 04:10 PM
Rod Oram: former Financial Times of London journalist. notorious socialist publication . Has the temerity to ask hard questions. How dare they. Lese majeste, it is.

Many people can bore with their answers - he can do it his questions. If you've ever got time to waste go and listen to him speaking somewhere. Get a medical clearance first and take a companion and full medical kit. There is a high danger of dying from the monotony. Warning. Do not attend if held in upper story of building with opening windows, ropes lying around, cleaning fluids not stored in safe cabinets or buckets to kick.

Sgt Pepper
17-01-2017, 05:26 PM
Many people can bore with their answers - he can do it his questions. If you've ever got time to waste go and listen to him speaking somewhere. Get a medical clearance first and take a companion and full medical kit. There is a high danger of dying from the monotony. Warning. Do not attend if held in upper story of building with opening windows, ropes lying around, cleaning fluids not stored in safe cabinets or buckets to kick.


Sort of like a National Party convention

fungus pudding
17-01-2017, 05:38 PM
Sort of like a National Party convention

That's interesting. I didn't think you'd be a member of National. I've never been to any political convention because I've never been a member of any political party. However I have heard many politicians, from various parties, but I have never heard a speaker as dreary and boring, so full of doom and gloom, as Oram. Many politicians I've heard have been excellent speakers and quite entertaining. There's been the odd exception, like Lila Harre.

westerly
17-01-2017, 07:08 PM
That's interesting. I didn't think you'd be a member of National. I've never been to any political convention because I've never been a member of any political party. However I have heard many politicians, from various parties, but I have never heard a speaker as dreary and boring, so full of doom and gloom, as Oram. Many politicians I've heard have been excellent speakers and quite entertaining. There's been the odd exception, like Lila Harre.

You would be a fan of Donald Trump then. He is very entertaining

westerly

fungus pudding
17-01-2017, 07:13 PM
You would be a fan of Donald Trump then. He is very entertaining

westerly

You make very strange assumptions. I am not necessarily a fan of people simply because they are entertaining. e.g. Trump and Winston Peters, one megalomaniac and the other a narcissist . Hard to be a fan but I would turn up to listen.

Bjauck
18-01-2017, 01:36 PM
...
Democracy in my books is more than just the louder crowd shouting the rest of the country down ("lock her up"). Democracy is about protection of minorities vs an unruly mob chasing people with foreign accent through the streets of UK towns. Democracy is about the people making an informed decision based on facts .. not crowds voting based on fake news coming from the bigger liar. From OED Democracy: "A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives" I think pure democracy is unworkable so it needs to be done through representatives reaching some form of consensus.As for elections, if they are free, then all sides can offer their opinions and it would be difficult to insist that elections be confined only to "facts". For example, who would determine whether the statement:"The EU is undemocratic and bureaucratic" is fact, lie or opinion. In reality it is probably a blend of all three and is dependent on context with a selection of "statistics" and "facts" to back whatever the opinion.
Democracy is about respecting human rights including human dignity. Democracy is about freedom of suppression, independent of sex and race, and it is about protecting the right of free speech (even if you don't like what the other party has to say) vs. bullying the free media (as Trump is demonstrating). What you are describing is a liberal constitutional democracy with the rule of law. A constitution confines and defines the application of democracy & various freedoms including expression and protest. The majority in a democracy may want to deny protection to a minority, whilst the constitution of a democracy may well prevent that from happening. In democratic NZ, as an example, the rights of certain minorities (& indeed majorities) were denied protection until well into the C20th. You can get unruly mobs and other criminals in all countries. It is how the police and legal authorities pursue them which is a defining aspect of their liberal constitutional democracy.


Democracy is about protecting and respecting an independent jurisdiction, not - as recently in the UK the hate press calling judges who's verdict they didn't like as "enemies of the people". That's what the Nazis did as well. What about freedom of the press - they are only allowed to be "free" as long as they do not criticise the judiciary? What if some members of the press do not think that judiciary is in fact independent?


Remember - most dictators (or lets call them autocrats, shall we) did at some stage win a democratic election. Putin, Hitler, Erdogan, even Mugabe. And sure - neither the UK nor the US are today where these tyrants ended. However - they both took the first steps into the wrong direction and they will need to be careful to protect their democracy. One point of difference: The UK and the USA are long-standing evolved constitutional democracies. In Russia, Germany of the 1920's and 1930's, Turkey and Zimbabwe their democracies were young and frail.


What is wrong about the hateful BREXIT crowds and Trump who promised to make America hate again? Everything. The hateful crowds in all countries are to be scorned. As for Brexit - Theresa May has said she wants the UK to be open for business, whilst being able to have control over immigration policy. It sounds like the aims of many independent counties including NZ. It is up to the EU now if they want to punish the UK for no longer wanting to be subject to the rules of the cartel or the EU club. What Trump does will be revealed - he seems to flip-flop on so many things!

BlackPeter
18-01-2017, 02:23 PM
Bjauck, I said "democracy in my books ...". No doubt, I might have too high standards for the so called majorities in the UK and in the US. North Korea is apparently as well a democracy: "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and so used to be communist East Germany "German Democratic Republic". Both no democracies in my books. Semantics can be a distraction from the real issues.

Bjauck
18-01-2017, 03:30 PM
Bjauck, I said "democracy in my books ...". No doubt, I might have too high standards for the so called majorities in the UK and in the US. North Korea is apparently as well a democracy: "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and so used to be communist East Germany "German Democratic Republic". Both no democracies in my books. Semantics can be a distraction from the real issues. Ok fair enough. "Your democracy" is very specific. Elections based (only?) on "facts" and elimination of hate crimes are aspirational. How many countries achieve that? "Unruly mobs" although in the UK they were emboldened by the Brexit vote, are not confined to Brexit UK and certainly would become a problem if the police and courts did nothing to curtail them.

It does depend on the specificity of your standards....but does the post-Brexit rise in hate crime indicate the "so-called majority" in the UK no longer believe in the UK liberal constitutional democracy with rule of law? I am not sure that connection can be drawn. Brexit may be an outcome we do not like but even if we presume a majority of the voters for Brexit wanted a curb on immigration, I am not sure if it would be safe to assume that even a majority of those voters would be comfortable with a constitutional democracy that did not protect minority rights, the rule of law and a free press.

Raz
18-01-2017, 03:41 PM
Ok fair enough. "Your democracy" is very specific. Elections based (only?) on "facts" and elimination of hate crimes are aspirational. How many countries achieve that? "Unruly mobs" although in the UK they were emboldened by the Brexit vote, are not confined to Brexit UK and certainly would become a problem if the police and courts did nothing to curtail them.

It does depend on the specificity of your standards....but does the post-Brexit rise in hate crime indicate the "so-called majority" in the UK no longer believe in the UK liberal constitutional democracy with rule of law? I am not sure that connection can be drawn. Brexit may be an outcome we do not like but even if we presume a majority of the voters for Brexit wanted a curb on immigration, I am not sure if it would be safe to assume that even a majority of those voters would be comfortable with a constitutional democracy that did not protect minority rights, the rule of law and a free press.

Can't think of one democracy where elections are based on facts to start with, yeah very aspirational..great comment.

elZorro
19-01-2017, 06:42 AM
Here's an article I can relate to, from someone well up in the research community who has been watching MBIE for any signs of action. National had promised all kinds of research, to bring up productivity. They pushed a bit more into the research funding in 2009, but since then they've been pulling back. Again, the commenter agrees the biggest govt mistake being - they pulled R&D tax credits. Now look at us, relying on net immigration for any growth.

National didn't bring us to a Brighter Future, they're bringing us down the OECD table.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11784229&utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+19 +January+2017

winner69
19-01-2017, 07:12 AM
Can't think of one democracy where elections are based on facts to start with, yeah very aspirational..great comment.

Maybe democracy per se is slowly lying it's way into oblivion

AS recent Journal Of Democracy articles suggest democracy is in decline. it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation.

craic
19-01-2017, 08:01 AM
Yes, of course, many people are more than happy to follow a good leader who is strong enough to deliver them from perceived evils rather than a collection of losers who have formed themselves into the sticky mess we call MMP and be told what is best for them. Have a close look at Singapore. Find me a beggar or a homeless person there. Then take me a photograph of a policeman on he streets or give me the name of any serious drug dealer like those we read about in our largest city.

Bjauck
19-01-2017, 09:45 AM
Maybe democracy per se is slowly lying it's way into oblivion

AS recent Journal Of Democracy articles suggest democracy is in decline. it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation. I hope it won't be a question of some people appreciating a system, only if it starts to disappear. Some people may need to put histories of Stalin's USSR, Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, Pinochet's Chile etc onto their Summer reading list. Luckily the UK and USA have mature constitutional democracies. However it would be foolish to assume that their systems are unbreakable.

The forgotten and left behind in the USA and UK actually would now prefer their voices to be heard - rather than the political and business elite continuing to dominate government policies. For them a robust representative parliamentary democracy would be the answer rather than putting their faith in "strong leaders" who mix with those same elites, against whom the brexit and trump supporters probably rebelled. The EU and APEC have been the collateral damage in this current backlash from voters in the UK and the USA.

BlackPeter
19-01-2017, 01:01 PM
Maybe democracy per se is slowly lying it's way into oblivion

AS recent Journal Of Democracy articles suggest democracy is in decline. it seems that people are turning to autocratic alternatives, and may have lost faith in democracy. Question then is are people genuinely willing to trade freedom for a ‘solution’ to anxieties about immigration, inequality and globalisation.


Yes, of course, many people are more than happy to follow a good leader who is strong enough to deliver them from perceived evils rather than a collection of losers who have formed themselves into the sticky mess we call MMP and be told what is best for them. Have a close look at Singapore. Find me a beggar or a homeless person there. Then take me a photograph of a policeman on he streets or give me the name of any serious drug dealer like those we read about in our largest city.

Well, yes - I think it was Churchill who said that "democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all others".

The need to interact with people who might have different views than you, can be frustrating and annoying.

I agree as well that many countries are not mature enough to run a working democracy. They need a strong man (or undemocratic system - e.g. China), and Singapore is a good example for a country which really benefitted from this solution. However - look at many other countries with strong and undemocratic leaders at the top. Would you really want to live in Somalia, in North Korea, in Afghanistan, in the Sudan, in Venezuela or in Russia?

All these countries are presided by autocrats (so called "strong men"). Some of these countries do have pseudo democracies (with no real alternative for the electorate) but most of them belong to the most corrupt countries of the world. This is the problem - most men (people?) become corrupted by uncontrolled power.

I think I prefer to live rather in an inefficient democracy than in a kleptocracy where I know that nobody is able to control the corrupt psychopath at the top - even if some people might have had at some stage big hopes in the man (some always do).

craic
19-01-2017, 03:43 PM
Whether you like it or not, the Western world is moving in behind strong leaders and away from the weaker democracies. France will be next to go. You don't have to have a "corrupt psychopath at the top" but the NZ Labour party will have to find a stronger figure than the present leader if they are to hope of ruling this country in the foreseeable future. Maybe if they took their foot out of their mouth and offered the leadership to Winston Peters, he might save them. He could offer free trips to Rarotonga for all pensioners who reach 80 without having a hip replaced.

BlackPeter
19-01-2017, 03:56 PM
Whether you like it or not, the Western world is moving in behind strong leaders and away from the weaker democracies. France will be next to go. You don't have to have a "corrupt psychopath at the top" but the NZ Labour party will have to find a stronger figure than the present leader if they are to hope of ruling this country in the foreseeable future. Maybe if they took their foot out of their mouth and offered the leadership to Winston Peters, he might save them. He could offer free trips to Rarotonga for all pensioners who reach 80 without having a hip replaced.

Not sure to whom you address this, but given that it is in response to my post ... I am certainly not concerned about the NZ Labour party - I think we both agree that they are a basket case and have a big Little problem. Yes, Winston First might save them, but do we really want that (as long as they don't change)? As well - remember - it is the unions electing unsuitable Labour leaders.

craig, sorry to confuse your little political universe ... but not all people who loathe Trump are Lefties. Some are just decent. I am politically independent, but more often than not a National / ACT supporter ... (and never ever voted for Labour)

fungus pudding
19-01-2017, 04:12 PM
craig, sorry to confuse your little political universe ... but not all people who loathe Trump are Lefties. Some are just decent. I am politically independent, but more often than not a National / ACT supporter ... (and never ever voted for Labour)

Same here, although I have voted Labour in the past, but it's not a left/right issue when it comes to Trump. Nobody including Trump himself have much of an idea of his 'policies'. Certainly a lot of his mutterings have been against Republicans' fundamental beliefs. The reason I oppose Trump is simply because he's probably the most appalling creep to have ever gained high office in a Western democracy.

Snow Leopard
19-01-2017, 04:26 PM
Well, yes - I think it was Churchill who said that "democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all others"....

It was Mahatma Gandhi who in reply to the question
"What do you think of Western civiization?"
replied
"I think it would be a good idea".

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/bb/11/53/gandhi-s-final-footsteps.jpg
The final footsteps of Gandhi, Delhi, India.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

elZorro
19-01-2017, 05:30 PM
Same here, although I have voted Labour in the past, but it's not a left/right issue when it comes to Trump. Nobody including Trump himself have much of an idea of his 'policies'. Certainly a lot of his mutterings have been against Republicans' fundamental beliefs. The reason I oppose Trump is simply because he's probably the most appalling creep to have ever gained high office in a Western democracy.

I agree with that, FP. Not sure how you can forgive John Key for his odd behaviour sometimes, but that is in the past, as National voters always say.

As far as I know, John Key has never divulged his real income, or his tax situation. Which makes this latest trust/tax haven saga, where New Zealand and the Cayman Islands are mentioned in the same sentence, more interesting.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11783658

craic
20-01-2017, 10:18 AM
My "little political universe" is probably as wide as anyone's. I have little love for DT but I believe that if he can maintain strong leadership he has the capacity to force people to face the realities in his country and restore national pride. Obama was a great talker but he achieved almost nothing for America. There are as many sleeping on the streets as when he started - there are as many out of work as when he started - and the Russians and Chinese are overrunning the western world. I don't believe Trump has the intelligence to go with his leadership but platoon commanders win the battles, not the Generals. QUOTE=BlackPeter;652103]Not sure to whom you address this, but given that it is in response to my post ... I am certainly not concerned about the NZ Labour party - I think we both agree that they are a basket case and have a big Little problem. Yes, Winston First might save them, but do we really want that (as long as they don't change)? As well - remember - it is the unions electing unsuitable Labour leaders.

craig, sorry to confuse your little political universe ... but not all people who loathe Trump are Lefties. Some are just decent. I am politically independent, but more often than not a National / ACT supporter ... (and never ever voted for Labour)[/QUOTE]

Major von Tempsky
22-01-2017, 10:04 AM
" but not all people who loathe Trump are Lefties. " Hear hear to that!

It makes me squirm when I see people like Metiria Turei and Julie Ann Genter's easy assumption that they are the leaders of the anti - Trump forces. THEY ARE NOT! I would never vote for them and I would never vote for Trump. Nor does the fact I am anti-Trump mean I am pro-left, pro marijuana and all the other politically correct rubbish. Out with Trump and out with the Left! I am a miltant CENTRIST middle classer.

iceman
22-01-2017, 11:45 AM
The funny thing is that Trump says he will implement policies that Turei, Genter and EZ agree with, such as anti free trade and re-establishing uneconomic industries to "make America great again" !!
I thought they'd be his cheerleaders

elZorro
22-01-2017, 04:07 PM
The funny thing is that Trump says he will implement policies that Turei, Genter and EZ agree with, such as anti free trade and re-establishing uneconomic industries to "make America great again" !!
I thought they'd be his cheerleaders

When did I ever say that? I'm keen on niche, well-founded, manufacturing industries, preferably with some hi-tech IP to protect them. Re-establishing uneconomic industries is a very bad idea. Four to one, the reason so many Americans are out of a job, is automation, not outsourcing.

However, some say Trump's inauguration is marking the end of neoliberalism and the start of populism. Even if the star of the show is a wealthy rentier who has no intention of unwinding the current situation.

craic
23-01-2017, 08:45 AM
Politics is the same as a game of rugby - only one ball - each side tries to pick it up an run with it and score. Great stuff if your side has it and scores - despair if it's the other lot. Free-trade, anti free-trade, unemployment, homelessness and all the rest are just balls that are picked up by one side or the other. Trouble is the sides drop or lose the ball more frequently than All Blacks and immediately cry foul and demand penalties. Populism is not new. All the reported problems here are not new. Other countries have them to greater degree than NZ but our left, particularly, cry foul about homelessness, unemployment and the like when we are generally much better off than the rest. Cardboard has been the standard home for many in London since I lived there in the 1950's and before. Soup kitchens were around in Dickens' time when the population was a mere fraction of what it is now and automation didn't exist. The next election will not be affected by the loss of John Key from the line up. The power of Donald Trump and Le Pen? will see the move to the right, worldwide, will be the main factor.

westerly
23-01-2017, 10:44 AM
" but not all people who loathe Trump are Lefties. " Hear hear to that!

It makes me squirm when I see people like Metiria Turei and Julie Ann Genter's easy assumption that they are the leaders of the anti - Trump forces. THEY ARE NOT! I would never vote for them and I would never vote for Trump. Nor does the fact I am anti-Trump mean I am pro-left, pro marijuana and all the other politically correct rubbish. Out with Trump and out with the Left! I am a miltant CENTRIST middle classer.

The International Democratic Union chaired by John Key is a an international alliance of “ centre right parties”. I sort of had the impression the right was dead against any sort of union, however given the interest in Donald Trump, the Republican Party of the USA is a member along with the NZ National party. I would not describe the Republicans as centre right but nor would I give that tag to National. More centre of the right or even a bit further.
But whats in a name ? Anyone with any form of social conscience is auomatically a leftie and a member of the communist party.

westerly

iceman
23-01-2017, 11:25 AM
When did I ever say that? I'm keen on niche, well-founded, manufacturing industries, preferably with some hi-tech IP to protect them. Re-establishing uneconomic industries is a very bad idea. Four to one, the reason so many Americans are out of a job, is automation, not outsourcing.

However, some say Trump's inauguration is marking the end of neoliberalism and the start of populism. Even if the star of the show is a wealthy rentier who has no intention of unwinding the current situation.

Without trawling through all the pages here, comments on the closure of Hillside Engineering in Dunedin comes to mind. From memory many comments were made on here blaming the Government for not keeping this unsustainable business open

dobby41
23-01-2017, 11:43 AM
Without trawling through all the pages here, comments on the closure of Hillside Engineering in Dunedin comes to mind. From memory many comments were made on here blaming the Government for not keeping this unsustainable business open

Unsustainable?
Is that the one where we purchased the Chinese train locos instead?
The ones with asbestos that didn't work properly?
I wonder what the overall 'real' saving was in the end?

elZorro
23-01-2017, 12:18 PM
Without trawling through all the pages here, comments on the closure of Hillside Engineering in Dunedin comes to mind. From memory many comments were made on here blaming the Government for not keeping this unsustainable business open

Hillside were still making really good train bodies, and the govt accountants didn't look at the full story of the cost of laying off a lot of govt employees and the increased WINZ costs versus the tax gain of having people paying PAYE instead. Instead, they just looked at the likely NZ rolling stock costs versus Chinese made ones. Now KiwiRail are dropping out of electricification, so more hardware is being made redundant, probably because Hillside staff aren't there to help keep it running. What's the long-term cost of that? We're going to be stuck with fossil-fuel locos when we have heaps of zero-carbon electricity. The rules for govt depts or SOES are surely different from private enterprise. The govt has obvious benefits from being an employer, that the private sector doesn't have.

dobby41
23-01-2017, 01:11 PM
What's the long-term cost of that? We're going to be stuck with fossil-fuel locos when we have heaps of zero-carbon electricity. The rules for govt depts or SOES are surely different from private enterprise. The govt has obvious benefits from being an employer, that the private sector doesn't have.

What will happen next is that the govt will decide that trains are too polluting and get rid of them as the cost of reinstating electrification is too high.

GTM 3442
24-01-2017, 10:42 PM
What will happen next is that the govt will decide that trains are too polluting and get rid of them as the cost of reinstating electrification is too high.

The usual lack of strategic vision of any New Zealand government since 1984

elZorro
25-01-2017, 07:11 AM
The usual lack of strategic vision of any New Zealand government since 1984

I'd rewrite that to:

The usual lack of strategic vision of a National Government.

For Labour: What about the Cullen Super Fund? R&D tax credits? The KiwiBuild plan? All great ideas that are being held back while National is in power.

winner69
25-01-2017, 07:21 AM
Suppose Winston with his views on immigration would not have given Peter Thiel NZ citizenship by being a person of "special benefit to NZ."

Apparently you don't even need to live in NZ to get citizenship anyway

elZorro
25-01-2017, 09:24 PM
Suppose Winston with his views on immigration would not have given Peter Thiel NZ citizenship by being a person of "special benefit to NZ."

Apparently you don't even need to live in NZ to get citizenship anyway

Is this what you're referring to, W69?
http://gizmodo.com/peter-thiel-gains-new-zealand-citizenship-as-tech-elite-1791550567

Almost makes NZ look like a safe haven as its main attribute. I was hoping that our politicians would raise their sights a bit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/technology/peter-thiel-new-zealand-citizenship.html

GTM 3442
27-01-2017, 04:57 AM
I'd rewrite that to:

The usual lack of strategic vision of a National Government.

For Labour: What about the Cullen Super Fund? R&D tax credits? The KiwiBuild plan? All great ideas that are being held back while National is in power.

I rather think that you're wearing rose-tinted glasses as you write.

The last dying gasp of strategic vision was Sir Robert's electrification of the main trunk line.

elZorro
27-01-2017, 05:41 AM
I rather think that you're wearing rose-tinted glasses as you write.

The last dying gasp of strategic vision was Sir Robert's electrification of the main trunk line.

It was one of the "Think Big" projects, and like the Huntly Power Station, it's still around, so it wasn't too crazy an idea. Both would have employed many people for the construction works, they gained skills and paid taxes.

http://www.kiwirail.co.nz/about-us/history-of-kiwirail/150yearsofrail/stories/nimt-electrification.html

Of course a Labour Govt must have helped see this through, the project didn't open until 1988.

westerly
27-01-2017, 10:48 AM
Suppose Winston with his views on immigration would not have given Peter Thiel NZ citizenship by being a person of "special benefit to NZ."

Apparently you don't even need to live in NZ to get citizenship anyway

It is all about the money. Buy your way in, NZ is poor and mortgaged.

westerly

craic
27-01-2017, 12:45 PM
Came in the back door 57 years ago without even a passport. Eventually gained residency but never bothered with citizenship. "It's all about money"?All my money is still in my pocket. The same rules and categories exist, even under a Labour government - if we ever see one again - maybe in Australia?

elZorro
28-01-2017, 06:05 PM
Came in the back door 57 years ago without even a passport. Eventually gained residency but never bothered with citizenship. "It's all about money"?All my money is still in my pocket. The same rules and categories exist, even under a Labour government - if we ever see one again - maybe in Australia?

Even with this right-wing swing worldwide, I still give the Labour-Green coalition a better than even chance in 2017. As long as they don't bottle it, and stick up for their policies. The voting public can handle it.

Here's something that caught my eye yesterday, in the Herald.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11789175

On the face of it, a good argument, and the farmer concerned had some good points. Really?

Jacqueline Rowarth, a right-wing apologist now Chief Scientist for the EPA, got into trouble with the same fact about the Waikato River. (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/chief-scientist-cops-flak-declaring-waikato-river-one-cleanest-major-rivers-in-world) In terms of major rivers worldwide that have been ranked by the OECD (many haven't), the Waikato is currently the fifth cleanest in terms of nitrate loading (unsure if that's an average reading over the length or not). But the rivers ranking lower all have huge human populations nearby, the Waikato doesn't. Lower Waikato is more polluted of course (https://www.waikatoregion.govt.nz/Environment/Natural-resources/Water/Rivers/Waikato-River/Downstream-change-to-water-quality/Changes-in-nitrogen/). You don't swim in that, as a rule.

A human lives 11x longer than a cow on average, so they might be matched in terms of lifetime effluent. But, the cow is usually culled at age 7 or earlier when it could have lived to 25 years old, and is immediately replaced with a heifer that was brought through on the same farm, or somewhere nearby. So since in fact a cow produces 14x the effluent of a human each year, and the cow is effectively replaced, we have 6.4million cows x 14, or the equivalent of an additional 90 million humans providing largely point source pollution, compared to the populace of 4.5 million running through some kind of effluent system.

I'm not going to get into the argument about water use in towns, or other pollution sources, for many people it wouldn't be a big effect overall. Many farms are now irrigating, probably not Mr Lumsden, but the water use is not just the cow consumption, it can be a lot higher.

Point source pollution by cows is not all trapped in the plants, a proportion leaches out. Some dairy effluent also certainly enters the waterways. Treatment of the effluent can be nearly as good as urban treatment, but good municipal discharge quality is probably obtained from the far reduced entry points. There are over 10,000 dairy farms, and they are not monitored nearly as hard for their effluent discharges.

Cows are also injected with antibiotics and other chemicals, this can find its way into milk and effluent. Those cows aren't as organic as you'd think.

The Taupo catchment is being protected from nutrient discharge into the crystal clear heritage Lake Taupo. Long may it continue, I'm happy to pay something towards it in my rates. The local council may ask farmers for records on their fert use, stock holdings etc. This is not a look at their books as Mr Lumsden implies, and anyway such info is kept confidential.

What Mr Lumsden hasn't mentioned, is that his large low-lying dairy farm (http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/10109567/Lake-bloom-fix-could-cost-100m)borders Lake Waikare, a very shallow and hypertrophic lake t (https://www.waikatoregion.govt.nz/Environment/Natural-resources/Water/Lakes/Shallow-lakes-of-the-Waikato-region/Riverine-lakes/Lake-Waikare/Lake-Waikare/)hat won't even support many aquatic weeds. It had its natural level reduced by a metre a few decades ago, after (I assume) some pressure from local farming interests. It's also an emergency ponding area if the Waikato River breaches the road at Rangiriri.

I mention all this because it's part of the bigger picture. We are being fed comments, patter, carefully massaged facts, and unless we look into them harder, we'll remain ignorant of what is really going on. John Key was especially good at it, but many National Party hacks are also picking up the reins.

GTM 3442
29-01-2017, 01:05 AM
It was one of the "Think Big" projects, and like the Huntly Power Station, it's still around, so it wasn't too crazy an idea. Both would have employed many people for the construction works, they gained skills and paid taxes.

http://www.kiwirail.co.nz/about-us/history-of-kiwirail/150yearsofrail/stories/nimt-electrification.html

Of course a Labour Govt must have helped see this through, the project didn't open until 1988.

The rose-tinting is strong today. . .

craic
29-01-2017, 10:53 AM
There is a simple solution to most water worries - install a rain tank. I noticed while passing through residential areas in Brisbane and other towns that they are very common. Rain water is clean and drinkable. The collected water is not wasted, it is passed back into the system. And tank owners are not subject to hosing restrictions. Now there's an idea for Labour to run with at the next election. We've been there for twenty-five years.

dobby41
29-01-2017, 03:29 PM
There is a simple solution to most water worries - install a rain tank. I noticed while passing through residential areas in Brisbane and other towns that they are very common. Rain water is clean and drinkable. The collected water is not wasted, it is passed back into the system. And tank owners are not subject to hosing restrictions. Now there's an idea for Labour to run with at the next election. We've been there for twenty-five years.

Drinkable depending on the roof it is collected from.
Tanks are only as good as the amount of rain you get!

macduffy
29-01-2017, 04:16 PM
The Wellington City Council is well ahead of any possible Labour party initiative here. Subsidised water tanks were a big part of promoting earthquake readiness awareness following quakes in recent years.

Baa_Baa
29-01-2017, 05:26 PM
The Wellington City Council is well ahead of any possible Labour party initiative here. Subsidised water tanks were a big part of promoting earthquake readiness awareness following quakes in recent years.

Do you mean the 200 litre tanks? Yes that's a good initiative for a very temporary suburban 'get through it' situation following a disaster, albeit a very limited supply which wouldn't last most households more than a few days, even on rations.

I've read somewhere that if the Wellington (inc the Hutt Valley) supply was ruptured from from the Trentham lakes, it would/could be weeks or longer to restore supply. Let alone if the supply lines were completely destroyed.

To illustrate, my place is not on town water supply, we have about 50,000 litres in two tanks and even that is stretched during prolonged summer droughts (unlike this year) however we have never completely run out of water, albeit coming very close some years.

I laugh when we stay away from home, the kids hate the taste of any town water, they say it tastes of chemicals, they boil it before drinking it, LOL!.

At home it tastes of pure distilled water from the sky, flavoured by whatever happens to be swept off the roof. Nothing that a half cup of chlorine in the tanks from time to time can't fix, and none of us have ever been sick from our off grid water supply.

Would be nice if the government had subsidised my investment in water supply, but I doubt whether National, Labour, Green or any other party would give a toss.

craic
29-01-2017, 08:13 PM
Exactly my experience. And it makes great whiskey.

craic
30-01-2017, 09:26 AM
Will the Labour party extend its affair with the Greens to include K.D. Com who has announced his intention to apply for NZ Citizenship and Stand for Parliament in the next election? They might even be able to squeeze Hone H into the envelope.

elZorro
30-01-2017, 09:43 PM
Will the Labour party extend its affair with the Greens to include K.D. Com who has announced his intention to apply for NZ Citizenship and Stand for Parliament in the next election? They might even be able to squeeze Hone H into the envelope.

Craic, I think Labour will be smart enough to just run with the Greens for 2017. That's enough for people to get their heads around, that it might be the best thing for NZ, ever.

Anyway my previous post wasn't about rainwater or water quality, it was about brainwashing. As collecting rainwater makes sense even on a small scale, you won't find an argument against that by the Greens, or Labour. The dairy farming lobby want the spotlight off their 90mill human equivalent waste issue. Put another way, for every human in NZ, there are 20 animal effluent equivalents in the form of cows, who are not under full control when it comes to where they might 'take a dump'. That takes some cleaning up, doesn't it?

GTM 3442
30-01-2017, 11:08 PM
. . . Put another way, for every human in NZ, there are 20 animal effluent equivalents in the form of cows, who are not under full control when it comes to where they might 'take a dump'. That takes some cleaning up, doesn't it?

So the sooner we move to intensive "barn-raised and housed" dairy farming to facilitate manure retention, collection, and storage the better?

After all, aren't all those valuable phosphates, nitrates, and trace elements cheaper when they come free from the animal's a*se, rather than having to be bought in as bulk or bagged fertilizer. . .

The Danes have an interesting take on it.

http://www.inbiom.dk/Files//Files/Publikationer/Manure-to-Energy_UK_web.pdf

elZorro
31-01-2017, 06:19 AM
So the sooner we move to intensive "barn-raised and housed" dairy farming to facilitate manure retention, collection, and storage the better?

After all, aren't all those valuable phosphates, nitrates, and trace elements cheaper when they come free from the animal's a*se, rather than having to be bought in as bulk or bagged fertilizer. . .

The Danes have an interesting take on it.

http://www.inbiom.dk/Files//Files/Publikationer/Manure-to-Energy_UK_web.pdf

Thanks for the link, GTM. I'll read more of that later. Looks like we are about 30 years behind the Danes. An excerpt:


..the former Danish
Government launched the Green Growth Plan in 2009. This
policy strategy suggests that in 2020 up to 50% of the livestock
manure shall be treated for energy purposes (before
being spread as fertiliser on fields) and ultimately all of it.
The technologies for processing would comprise anaerobic
digestion, gasification, pyrolysis and combustion, including
different pre and post treatments. The current government
supports this part of the Plan, and some politicians go further
and suggest that the spreading of raw, untreated manure
on fields shall be banned, thus indicating how future
policies might be.


Minerals do exit the farming system in the outputs of meat/milk etc, so they have to be replaced from external sources eventually, or farming would be unprofitable. For example, we have the strange situation in NZ where gas from Taranaki is used as the energy/feedstock for most urea fertilisers, as the most expedient way to reduce costs to the farmer.

http://www.ballance.co.nz/Our-CoOp/About-Ballance/Manufacturing

Here in NZ, many farms have low biological activity in the soil, which means nutrients are not captured as efficiently as they could be. This is what happens, for example, when you use glyphospate weedkillers on whole paddocks: the worm population is killed off too, and takes years to recover. A good spread of worm breeds on a farm is an indicator that the topsoil is well mixed and aerated, and scats are quickly brought down into the soil by worms. There is just so much dumb stuff going on, it's a wonder farmers can still make a profit most years.

There have been attempts with digesters on dairy farms here. Never took off, too expensive, say the farmers. The business in Hamilton that tried it, went broke. You'd have to legislate it.

Can you imagine a tanker rotating around local dairy farms and taking effluent pond solids to one digester plant, where it is converted to gas and topsoil, with the gas being used for massive glasshouse heating over colder months (100% efficient), or converted to electricity in other months (30% efficient).

elZorro
31-01-2017, 06:12 PM
Helen Clark is going to step down from the UNDP in April, after 8 years of high profile work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/88794507/helen-clark-resigns-from-undp-according-to-reports

Here is a glimpse of what she's been involved in, within her latest report.


UNDP is the largest implementer of climatechange initiatives in the UN Development System with a grant portfolio of $2.8billion across 140 countries which attracts another $5.65 billion inco-financing. The outcomes of Marrakech and the new rule book will guide thesupport UNDP gives to programme countries. UNDP has partnered with countries onfirst the design and now on the delivery of their NDCs. Our efforts are greatlyenhanced by the strong relationships we have with the Global EnvironmentFacility, the Green Climate Fund, the Adaptation Fund established under theKyoto Protocol, and other funding sources and partners. UNDP is also helpingcountries to link their NDCs to national SDG implementation.


So here is one competent politician at least, who knows a fair bit about climate change. She's probably returning to NZ.

GTM 3442
31-01-2017, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the link, GTM. I'll read more of that later. Looks like we are about 30 years behind the Danes. . . . .

elZorro, I rather think you'll find that it's a great big wide world out there,full of things to learn, and full of good examples of what works and works well.

New Zealand seems particularly resistant to learning. . . whatever political party holds the reins of power.

elZorro
01-02-2017, 06:51 AM
elZorro, I rather think you'll find that it's a great big wide world out there,full of things to learn, and full of good examples of what works and works well.

New Zealand seems particularly resistant to learning. . . whatever political party holds the reins of power.

I have to agree with that, the rural sector as a whole, seems to be the most resistant to change. In the Waikato Times this morning, Winston Peters using the same rubbish Lumsden quote to imply that cows would have about the same effect as humans over their lifetimes, so it must be urban pollution (he just massaged the figures even more). He says the Waikato River got a clean test all the way down, at some point in time over this summer. That's because it was dry, and there was no point source runoff like you get when it rains. He must be going for rural votes.

GTM 3442
02-02-2017, 03:23 AM
Oh, I don't think you need to confine your remarks to the rural sector. There's plenty of willful blindness to go around.

elZorro
02-02-2017, 06:15 AM
Oh, I don't think you need to confine your remarks to the rural sector. There's plenty of willful blindness to go around.

What do you mean? That too many people think that National will create workable policies to dig NZ out of this increasing downwards trend in the true economy? Or that we can grow rich selling houses to each other and to new immigrants? That many are blind to climate change and the near-term implications for NZ?

We've recently seen ancient human structures destroyed by zealous but ignorant religious movements overseas. Now Trump is making those with enough cash to relocate anywhere from the USA, have a good look around. We're on the radar.

National has been able to demonstrate just what can be done with immigration settings. House prices in Hamilton up by 25% in one year, while normal inflation is very low. That's great for the people already in the housing market, dangerous for anyone else, the majority. Which puts National's policies on the losing side of the argument.

National's attempt at R&D strategy seems to be floundering. Look at the comments, Callaghan Innovation is a joke to many who would know.

https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/callaghan-innovation-has-weak-management-fuzzy-strategy-b-198972?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+2+ February+2017

fungus pudding
02-02-2017, 10:26 AM
Helen Clark is going to step down from the UNDP in April, after 8 years of high profile work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/88794507/helen-clark-resigns-from-undp-according-to-reports

Here is a glimpse of what she's been involved in, within her latest report.



So here is one competent politician at least, who knows a fair bit about climate change. She's probably returning to NZ.

There are many who know about climate who have a contrary opinion. I'm not sure who is right, but I'll go along with AGW alarmists purely because it leaves a cleaner planet - although not necessarily cooler.

elZorro
02-02-2017, 05:25 PM
There are many who know about climate who have a contrary opinion. I'm not sure who is right, but I'll go along with AGW alarmists purely because it leaves a cleaner planet - although not necessarily cooler.

I think it's too late for that FP, there could be an event anytime, which puts 10x the current level of methane into the atmosphere over a few years. That's just one catastrophe the climate scientists are worried about. These are not times when any decent politician can imply that it's business as usual. It's not. A lot of these new wealthy immigrants, they're asking real estate agents about any implications of sea level rises.

blackcap
02-02-2017, 05:28 PM
I think it's too late for that FP, there could be an event anytime, which puts 10x the current level of methane into the atmosphere over a few years. That's just one catastrophe the climate scientists are worried about. These are not times when any decent politician can imply that it's business as usual. It's not. A lot of these new wealthy immigrants, they're asking real estate agents about any implications of sea level rises.

Im not convinced at all ElZorro.... This is about Carbon, but carbon is a good thing and we should be aiming for 600ppm or more...

http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/happer-the_truth_about_greenhouse_gases.pdf

elZorro
02-02-2017, 05:46 PM
Im not convinced at all ElZorro.... This is about Carbon, but carbon is a good thing and we should be aiming for 600ppm or more...

http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/happer-the_truth_about_greenhouse_gases.pdf

Yes, very amusing, but I wasn't fooled for a second. Maybe you were?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/dec/08/greenpeace-exposes-sceptics-cast-doubt-climate-science

winner69
02-02-2017, 05:49 PM
A PM called Bill - just doesn't sound or feel right

Any other world leaders called Bill?

We did have a Bill as PM a few years ago but he was pretty useless ......but Bill Massey was pretty good according to my Grandfather

fungus pudding
02-02-2017, 06:45 PM
A PM called Bill - just doesn't sound or feel right

Any other world leaders called Bill?



You may have heard of a Clinton with a similar name.

elZorro
03-02-2017, 06:48 AM
A PM called Bill - just doesn't sound or feel right

Any other world leaders called Bill?

We did have a Bill as PM a few years ago but he was pretty useless ......but Bill Massey was pretty good according to my Grandfather

This Bill's up against it - he's bringing National through to the end of three terms, their only chance of staying in might be a lot of luck and a huge deal for Winston Peters. Will that scenario bring in the funds required for their marketing and propaganda - I'm not sure.

As for policy, Bill was able to release the new police numbers deal that is close to what Labour were proposing. Only Labour would spend a bit more for extra numbers. This has been on the cards for months, even though National signed off on a clamp on police numbers for four years, just a year ago.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/315466/collins-hints-at-increased-police-numbers

Since Labour has four main policy areas for 2017, and Law and Order is one of them, this is perhaps the easiest one for National to sort out, before the electioneering starts. These new employees will pay taxes, net result is not a great deal of cost at all. It would have been National's immigration, education and housing policies that brought police the extra work anyway, so they should take ownership in sorting it out.

As I watched Bill reading out his speech yet again, I almost missed seeing John Key up there, spouting rubbish but at least doing it well.

fungus pudding
03-02-2017, 07:59 AM
These new employees will pay taxes, net result is not a great deal of cost at all.

That's a ridiculous comment. Are you still reading the old tax tables from when Labour last had a fling at wrecking the show?

BlackPeter
03-02-2017, 08:31 AM
As I watched Bill reading out his speech yet again, I almost missed seeing John Key up there, spouting rubbish but at least doing it well.

Sorry you feel that way. I see Bill English delivering the same high quality policies as his predecessor who managed to steer NZ safe through the quite rough aftermath of the GFC, but without the person cult. This must be a good thing - isn't it?

elZorro
03-02-2017, 09:29 AM
That's a ridiculous comment. Are you still reading the old tax tables from when Labour last had a fling at wrecking the show?

I seem to recall it was National that put up the GST rates, twice at least. Taxes on fuel, normal PAYE, then the follow-on support activity associated with more staff at Police HQ, those businesses will also pay taxes in various ways. If crime prevention saves on other costs, and that's brought in, the net cost to the taxpayer will be low.

fungus pudding
03-02-2017, 09:43 AM
I seem to recall it was National that put up the GST rates, twice at least. Taxes on fuel, normal PAYE, then the follow-on support activity associated with more staff at Police HQ, those businesses will also pay taxes in various ways. If crime prevention saves on other costs, and that's brought in, the net cost to the taxpayer will be low.

It's not restricted to police or new employees. There's information on IRD website to explain it to you. Allah alone knows where PAYE comes into it. Perhaps you mean income tax at a guess.

elZorro
03-02-2017, 11:04 AM
Sorry you feel that way. I see Bill English delivering the same high quality policies as his predecessor who managed to steer NZ safe through the quite rough aftermath of the GFC, but without the person cult. This must be a good thing - isn't it?

John Key and Bill English had a really easy run after the GFC, because they just sat on their hands and borrowed money on the taxpayers of the future. They had no trouble borrowing the funds at good rates, because Labour had paid off almost all the old debt while growing the economy. When is National going to be in a position to repay that new debt? They're still borrowing at this point. A so-called economic miracle.

John Key steps down.
(http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi7vKTr4fTRAhUBHJQKHUtlCV4QFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.nzherald.co.nz%2Fnz%2Fnews%2Far ticle.cfm%3Fc_id%3D1%26objectid%3D11760656&usg=AFQjCNEWtMeTi0njgBGYLVum4OQ2wGLSfg&bvm=bv.146094739,d.dGc)
Later that week..


https://www.nzdmo.govt.nz/analyst-centre/201617-domestic-bond-programme-increased-80-billion

elZorro
05-02-2017, 07:50 PM
Obviously Peter Thiel's goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer doesn't extend very far. Steven Joyce shows relative incompetence here.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11794020

Baa_Baa
05-02-2017, 08:18 PM
Obviously Peter Thiel's goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer doesn't extend very far. Steven Joyce shows relative incompetence here.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11794020

Goodness gracious, you say "Peter Thiel's goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer", have you lost the plot completely? Not only does Mr Thiel have no imperative or obligation to the NZ tax payer, as an astute investor his obligation is only to himself, perhaps as an investor yourself you would realise this, but Minister Joyce had nothing to do with it either, being a naive contract put in place by the Labour government (albeit that has only recently come back to light). In any event Mr Thiel, a NZ citizen, still owns a great deal of some of NZ's largest or most aspiring technology companies. Perhaps when he realises his investment, some will say he forsake "good will towards the NZ Taxpayer". Good grief, this line of reasoning is surely deeply flawed and there must be better angles to attack the National party, should one wish to, than via Mr Thiel?

elZorro
06-02-2017, 06:39 AM
Goodness gracious, you say "Peter Thiel's goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer", have you lost the plot completely? Not only does Mr Thiel have no imperative or obligation to the NZ tax payer, as an astute investor his obligation is only to himself, perhaps as an investor yourself you would realise this, but Minister Joyce had nothing to do with it either, being a naive contract put in place by the Labour government (albeit that has only recently come back to light). In any event Mr Thiel, a NZ citizen, still owns a great deal of some of NZ's largest or most aspiring technology companies. Perhaps when he realises his investment, some will say he forsake "good will towards the NZ Taxpayer". Good grief, this line of reasoning is surely deeply flawed and there must be better angles to attack the National party, should one wish to, than via Mr Thiel?

National had plenty of time to change that agreement template before doing a deal with Mr Thiel, and they should have checked the deal carefully, if they were being fair to the NZ taxpayer.

It was also the first time the buyout clause had been invoked - Mr Thiel set a precedent.


The Herald pieced together the partnership's structure, and conservatively estimated its positions through disparate disclosures in public and corporate documents and interviews with those familiar with details of the funds operation.

Despite claims at the time of launch that Valar Ventures would invest $40m in local technology companies, it ended up committing only $18m -- the bulk of which went towards accumulating shares in the NZX-listed cloud accountancy software company Xero.

Thiel had, prior to the partnership, bought into the cloud accountancy software firm and he continues to hold a separate stake. According to the company's share register, various entities controlled by Thiel own a combined 5.64 per cent stake in Xero valued in excess of $150m.

Xero's founder and chief executive, Rod Drury, wrote a letter in 2011 supporting Thiel's citizenship. He said Thiel's investment in, and championing of, his firm had been instrumental in Xero's success.

During the period Valar Ventures was buying up the company's stock, its share price soared from $3 to as high as $45, making the Xero-dominated fund extremely valuable. By mid-2016 its stash of Xero shares was worth $43m, representing the vast bulk of the fund's value.


Looks like a clever bit of market-making to me, not hard to do with a few million of extra cash with no risk involved.

What surprises me about Xero, with all the money thrown in, the software being written by scores of programmers, the sales teams etc, Xero apparently still doesn't know if any of its customers are using the software on a monthly basis, and you cannot just pick up the phone and ring them either. You can email them, and they might deign to ring you back. Most unlike any Kiwi company I've ever dealt with.

fungus pudding
06-02-2017, 07:51 AM
What surprises me about Xero, with all the money thrown in, the software being written by scores of programmers, the sales teams etc, Xero apparently still doesn't know if any of its customers are using the software on a monthly basis, and you cannot just pick up the phone and ring them either. You can email them, and they might deign to ring you back. Most unlike any Kiwi company I've ever dealt with.

Have you mentioned this to Little? Surely the govt. should come out with a policy to make them answer the phone!
Wouldn't have been like that under Labour.

elZorro
06-02-2017, 08:43 AM
Have you mentioned this to Little? Surely the govt. should come out with a policy to make them answer the phone!
Wouldn't have been like that under Labour.

Don't be disingenuous, I made perfectly sensible comments on the culture of Xero. Management would like all customers to just keep paying their monthly fee and never get in contact directly, because their software is just so beautiful.

I wonder how many other tech startups could look fabulous, with that sort of government-sponsored market making?

westerly
06-02-2017, 05:31 PM
Goodness gracious, you say "Peter Thiel's goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer", have you lost the plot completely? Not only does Mr Thiel have no imperative or obligation to the NZ tax payer, as an astute investor his obligation is only to himself, perhaps as an investor yourself you would realise this, but Minister Joyce had nothing to do with it either, being a naive contract put in place by the Labour government (albeit that has only recently come back to light). In any event Mr Thiel, a NZ citizen, still owns a great deal of some of NZ's largest or most aspiring technology companies. Perhaps when he realises his investment, some will say he forsake "good will towards the NZ Taxpayer". Good grief, this line of reasoning is surely deeply flawed and there must be better angles to attack the National party, should one wish to, than via Mr Thiel?

You are joking. He bought his way in being given citizenship without having lived here.
As a devout libertarian no doubt the Act party and National will welcome his donations with open arms. He is actively lobbing the F.D.A. to reduce the amount of testing required before new drugs are allowed to be marketed, believing in minimal regulation. ie. the free market.
He is a business man no doubt, but buying shares, property and a $1m donation to an earthquake relief fund hardly justifies his back door entry. Which has raised more than a few eyebrows around the world.

westerly

elZorro
06-02-2017, 06:13 PM
You are joking. He bought his way in being given citizenship without having lived here.
As a devout libertarian no doubt the Act party and National will welcome his donations with open arms. He is actively lobbing the F.D.A. to reduce the amount of testing required before new drugs are allowed to be marketed, believing in minimal regulation. ie. the free market.
He is a business man no doubt, but buying shares, property and a $1m donation to an earthquake relief fund hardly justifies his back door entry. Which has raised more than a few eyebrows around the world.

westerly

Can't agree more, Westerly. He's off to a good start with his NZ investments. The book profits from his Xero exposure have surely paid for his Earthquake fund donation, his property on the shores of Lake Wanaka, and a lot more besides.

fungus pudding
06-02-2017, 06:15 PM
Don't be disingenuous, I made perfectly sensible comments on the culture of Xero. Management would like all customers to just keep paying their monthly fee and never get in contact directly, because their software is just so beautiful.

I wonder how many other tech startups could look fabulous, with that sort of government-sponsored market making?

I didn't know of any govt. assistance.

Baa_Baa
06-02-2017, 06:45 PM
You are joking. He bought his way in being given citizenship without having lived here.
As a devout libertarian no doubt the Act party and National will welcome his donations with open arms. He is actively lobbing the F.D.A. to reduce the amount of testing required before new drugs are allowed to be marketed, believing in minimal regulation. ie. the free market.
He is a business man no doubt, but buying shares, property and a $1m donation to an earthquake relief fund hardly justifies his back door entry. Which has raised more than a few eyebrows around the world.

westerly

No, I'm not joking, perhaps you missed my point which is to call out El Z's reference to some obligation for "goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer".

Despite all that is questionable about the process and clearly there are questions, perhaps you can enlighten us, because El Z has not, yet you support his notion apparently, on what obligation any immigrant investor with their millions has to "goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer".

elZorro
06-02-2017, 06:54 PM
I didn't know of any govt. assistance.

Technically the govt provided additional seed funding at minimal cost for a wealthy overseas investor, this helped with market making for one listed NZ company in particular.

Anyway, Xero is also getting government grants for R&D.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-growth-grants-boost-rd-nz-0

westerly
06-02-2017, 07:21 PM
No, I'm not joking, perhaps you missed my point which is to call out El Z's reference to some obligation for "goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer".

Despite all that is questionable about the process and clearly there are questions, perhaps you can enlighten us, because El Z has not, yet you support his notion apparently, on what obligation any immigrant investor with their millions has to "goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer".

The main and perhaps only obligation is to pay their fair share of tax. As most overseas owned companies appear to be somewhat lax in their
tax payments, I would suggest this could also apply to individuals who supposedly have made some commitment to NZ. There appears to be little enforcement of conditions applied when granting permission to buy land or residence.

westerly

dobby41
07-02-2017, 07:15 AM
No, I'm not joking, perhaps you missed my point which is to call out El Z's reference to some obligation for "goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer".

Despite all that is questionable about the process and clearly there are questions, perhaps you can enlighten us, because El Z has not, yet you support his notion apparently, on what obligation any immigrant investor with their millions has to "goodwill towards the NZ taxpayer".

There has been the suggestion that his citizenship was OK because he gave $1m to the earthquake appeal ($1m out of how many billion?) and invested in Xero (how many others invested in Xero? Give them all citizenship!).
There was also a suggestion in his application that he would spread our good name far and wide but this didn't seem to happen - the actual fact he became a citizen only just came to light many years later.

He has shown little interest in NZ - it was a business deal and good for his pocket.

elZorro
07-02-2017, 06:55 PM
There has been the suggestion that his citizenship was OK because he gave $1m to the earthquake appeal ($1m out of how many billion?) and invested in Xero (how many others invested in Xero? Give them all citizenship!).
There was also a suggestion in his application that he would spread our good name far and wide but this didn't seem to happen - the actual fact he became a citizen only just came to light many years later.

He has shown little interest in NZ - it was a business deal and good for his pocket.


What about the other deals that National has done for the private sector? Privatising SOEs at very quick net losses to the taxpayer in just the last three years?

https://thestandard.org.nz/the-soe-sell-down-three-years-on/

This is a ruthless, calculating political party in office, one that just doesn't have NZ's interests at heart. Vote them out, before it's too late.

blackcap
07-02-2017, 07:22 PM
What about the other deals that National has done for the private sector? Privatising SOEs at very quick net losses to the taxpayer in just the last three years?

https://thestandard.org.nz/the-soe-sell-down-three-years-on/

This is a ruthless, calculating political party in office, one that just doesn't have NZ's interests at heart. Vote them out, before it's too late.

Not going to happen if you read the huge infighting going on in the Labour ranks according to said site quoted above :)

elZorro
07-02-2017, 07:29 PM
Not going to happen if you read the huge infighting going on in the Labour ranks according to said site quoted above :)

That's not huge infighting, that's normal for Labour. They like to discuss stuff openly and argue their points of view. In the end they'll come up with the right decision, whether Jackson is a good fit for Labour, or not. At least he has the message already, he'd better watch himself and the way he behaves, if he gets high up the list, where everyone else wants to be.

blackcap
07-02-2017, 07:34 PM
That's not huge infighting, that's normal for Labour. They like to discuss stuff openly and argue their points of view. In the end they'll come up with the right decision, whether Jackson is a good fit for Labour, or not. At least he has the message already, he'd better watch himself and the way he behaves, if he gets high up the list, where everyone else wants to be.

Wow if that's normal for Labour... I now know why they get alienated :P hmmm if recent polling is anything to go by won't he (Jackson) have to be about number 2 or 3 on the list to get in? In fact poll under 25% on election night and Andrew Little may not even get in. Now that would be amusing!

p.s even Katie Bradford on One News was saying this public spat was bad for Labour.....

fungus pudding
07-02-2017, 07:37 PM
That's not huge infighting, that's normal for Labour. They like to discuss stuff openly and argue their points of view.

Sure eZ. Whatever you say. Nothing at all behind closed doors? How suprising - lot of fake news around then.

Baa_Baa
07-02-2017, 07:44 PM
That's not huge infighting, that's normal for Labour. They like to discuss stuff openly and argue their points of view. In the end they'll come up with the right decision, whether Jackson is a good fit for Labour, or not. At least he has the message already, he'd better watch himself and the way he behaves, if he gets high up the list, where everyone else wants to be.

Terrible decision, like self inflicted wounds, Labour (or Little) has lot the plot here and the desperation is palpable. Jackson is an uncontrollable motormouth, he has never "got the message" and will never "watch himself and the way he behaves".

Goodness know why Little would take such a high risk bringing a loose cannon into the List in such a high ranking, already he's had to ameliorate the fallout and demote Jackson a notch or two by implied or actual ascension.

Also poor tactics from Little, by announcing this openly before working through the internal conflicts, as Jackson will galvanise internal Labour opinion and the whole thing could easily turn into another embarrassing debacle.

That said, they're good at working through debacles, albeit after they've lost an election, they have three terms in opposition as evidence for their appalling choices of candidacies in the times when they needed stability, level heads and profound leadership that captures the populations hearts, minds and imagination.

Can't see this working out well for Labour in any way shape or form.

fungus pudding
07-02-2017, 07:48 PM
Terrible decision, like self inflicted wounds, Labour (or Little) has lot the plot here and the desperation is palpable. Jackson is an uncontrollable motormouth, he has never "got the message" and will never "watch himself and the way he behaves".

Goodness know why Little would take such a high risk bringing a loose cannon into the List in such a high ranking, already he's had to ameliorate the fallout and demote Jackson a notch or two by implied or actual ascension.

Also poor tactics from Little, by announcing this openly before working through the internal conflicts, as Jackson will galvanise internal Labour opinion and the whole thing could easily turn into another embarrassing debacle.

That said, they're good at working through debacles, albeit after they've lost an election, they have three terms in opposition as evidence for their appalling choices of candidacies in the times when they needed stability, level heads and profound leadership that captures the populations hearts, minds and imagination.

Can't see this working out well for Labour in any way shape or form.

Laila Harre and now Jackson, both burnt out leftovers from the Alliance. Looks like the super red McArten might be behind the recruiting for Labour. Bit of a laugh coming up here I'd say.

Baa_Baa
07-02-2017, 07:59 PM
Furthermore, Jackson has the type of baggage that can never ever be unloaded. It's like the crass and common joke about the upstanding politician who achieved great things in his career, but for the the one time that he f&*^#d the goat, for ever on to be known as the .. 'goat [?]'... yeah, you know that joke.

Jackson will never ever escape his self inflicted down-trou on his 'roast busters' interview. It will haunt him for the rest of his days, why? Because no matter how he sugar coats it, apologises for it, humbles himself against it, it is the actual words on the actual day that says everything about the man, his beliefs and the scum bag that he is.

Bad choice Mr Little, very bad choice.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11795187

"Labour's spokeswoman on family and sexual violence, Poto Williams, tweeted today: "I am concerned that Willie Jackson is becoming a Labour Party candidate with a prominent ranking on the list."

Campaigner for victims of sexual violence Louise Nicholas said on Facebook that she was "gutted and disappointed" by the party's decision to take on Jackson."

Major von Tempsky
08-02-2017, 09:51 AM
Publicly telling influential back benchers to "pull their heads in" isn't going to do Little much good in Caucus. For everyone who voiced their thoughts there's bound to be at least 10 who didn't but just watched and thought. The leopard can't change his spots, just a matter of time before Jackson and a number of other loose cannon explode.

fungus pudding
08-02-2017, 09:56 AM
Publicly telling influential back benchers to "pull their heads in" isn't going to do Little much good in Caucus. For everyone who voiced their thoughts there's bound to be at least 10 who didn't but just watched and thought. The leopard can't change his spots, just a matter of time before Jackson and a number of other loose cannon explode.

Who will be Labour leader for the election? Interesting question. They'll have to sort it out soon.

BlackPeter
08-02-2017, 10:12 AM
Furthermore, Jackson has the type of baggage that can never ever be unloaded. It's like the crass and common joke about the upstanding politician who achieved great things in his career, but for the the one time that he f&*^#d the goat, for ever on to be known as the .. 'goat [?]'... yeah, you know that joke.

Jackson will never ever escape his self inflicted down-trou on his 'roast busters' interview. It will haunt him for the rest of his days, why? Because no matter how he sugar coats it, apologises for it, humbles himself against it, it is the actual words on the actual day that says everything about the man, his beliefs and the scum bag that he is.

Bad choice Mr Little, very bad choice.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11795187

"Labour's spokeswoman on family and sexual violence, Poto Williams, tweeted today: "I am concerned that Willie Jackson is becoming a Labour Party candidate with a prominent ranking on the list."

Campaigner for victims of sexual violence Louise Nicholas said on Facebook that she was "gutted and disappointed" by the party's decision to take on Jackson."

Agree, but than - we live in a post decent society. Remember - Trump did win because he avoided any decent behaviour and his supporters just love to hear his "locker room talk".

I hope that NZ is better than this - but not so sure anymore. Maybe Jackson is exactly what the Left needs to win.

blackcap
08-02-2017, 03:39 PM
Looks like Andrew Little could be in trouble..... (Excerpt taken from Kiwiblog)

"I’ve been involved in politics for around 30 years and I can’t recall ever before an MP hiring a public relations firm to help them promote a statement attacking a decision personally made by their party leader.

If Little lets this pass without sanction, then his leadership is even weaker than we thought. Any other leader in any other party would sack or suspend an MP who hired a PR firm to attack the party leader.

I mean think about that. An MP hired a PR firm to put out a press release attacking a star candidate hand picked by their own leader. And they think they can run the country.

The trouble is Little does not have the support of his caucus. He got monstered in the caucus room on Tuesday and has had to back away from the promised high list place for Willie Jackson. He has managed to alienate the Maori wing, the youth wing, the Rainbow wing, the parliamentary wing and the women’s wing of Labour in one go. And you know what, there isn’t much of Labour not in one of those wings."

westerly
08-02-2017, 04:40 PM
Looks like Andrew Little could be in trouble..... (Excerpt taken from Kiwiblog)

"I’ve been involved in politics for around 30 years and I can’t recall ever before an MP hiring a public relations firm to help them promote a statement attacking a decision personally made by their party leader.

If Little lets this pass without sanction, then his leadership is even weaker than we thought. Any other leader in any other party would sack or suspend an MP who hired a PR firm to attack the party leader.

I mean think about that. An MP hired a PR firm to put out a press release attacking a star candidate hand picked by their own leader. And they think they can run the country.

The trouble is Little does not have the support of his caucus. He got monstered in the caucus room on Tuesday and has had to back away from the promised high list place for Willie Jackson. He has managed to alienate the Maori wing, the youth wing, the Rainbow wing, the parliamentary wing and the women’s wing of Labour in one go. And you know what, there isn’t much of Labour not in one of those wings."

Looks like Nationals campaign for the next election is up and running. Possibly upset Farrar's poll has National having to rely on Winston to win.
Expect more dirty tricks from the activists.

westerly

fungus pudding
08-02-2017, 05:25 PM
Looks like Andrew Little could be in trouble..... (Excerpt taken from Kiwiblog)

"I’ve been involved in politics for around 30 years and I can’t recall ever before an MP hiring a public relations firm to help them promote a statement attacking a decision personally made by their party leader.

If Little lets this pass without sanction, then his leadership is even weaker than we thought. Any other leader in any other party would sack or suspend an MP who hired a PR firm to attack the party leader.

I mean think about that. An MP hired a PR firm to put out a press release attacking a star candidate hand picked by their own leader. And they think they can run the country.

The trouble is Little does not have the support of his caucus. He got monstered in the caucus room on Tuesday and has had to back away from the promised high list place for Willie Jackson. He has managed to alienate the Maori wing, the youth wing, the Rainbow wing, the parliamentary wing and the women’s wing of Labour in one go. And you know what, there isn’t much of Labour not in one of those wings."

But according to eZ that's how Labour likes to run things.

#11597

'That's not huge infighting, that's normal for Labour. They like to discuss stuff openly and argue their points of view. In the end they'll come up with the right decision, whether Jackson is a good fit for Labour, or not. At least he has the message already, he'd better watch himself and the way he behaves, if he gets high up the list, where everyone else wants to be.'

craic
08-02-2017, 06:25 PM
I am not a labour supporter but they could improve a lot by moving Stuart Nash into the top job. He has been considered more than once but loses out to the other contenders who scrabble around under the table snatching up the crumbs.

fungus pudding
08-02-2017, 06:49 PM
I am not a labour supporter but they could improve a lot by moving Stuart Nash into the top job. He has been considered more than once but loses out to the other contenders who scrabble around under the table snatching up the crumbs.


That'll happen soon.

elZorro
08-02-2017, 10:12 PM
But according to eZ that's how Labour likes to run things.

#11597

'That's not huge infighting, that's normal for Labour. They like to discuss stuff openly and argue their points of view. In the end they'll come up with the right decision, whether Jackson is a good fit for Labour, or not. At least he has the message already, he'd better watch himself and the way he behaves, if he gets high up the list, where everyone else wants to be.'

It's not perfect, but it's real. Apparently John Tamihere did all the talking in that radio interview, and they said at the start they would play devils' advocate, so looking at the work Willy Jackson has been doing elsewhere in the community, he looks to be a decent human being. Some politicians do seem to be very precious about their list options though.

At this stage, I don't think any Labour MPs have said anything that is rude or even incorrect, and they haven't quit their posts like John Key did, they are having a robust discussion, and all of that could have been done in caucus. Taxpayer money has not been squandered, no assets have been sold, no state house tenants have been bundled onto the streets.

The Labour leader is also secure, to the consternation of Craic and FP, who would like to see another changeover, just for the hell of it.

blackcap
09-02-2017, 06:59 AM
At this stage, I don't think any Labour MPs have said anything that is rude or even incorrect, and they haven't quit their posts like John Key did, .

That's just a blatant lie and I mention off the top of my head Goff and Shearer but there are plenty more. Oh, Key is still in Parliament albeit on the backbenches....

Raz
09-02-2017, 10:55 AM
It's not perfect, but it's real. Apparently John Tamihere did all the talking in that radio interview, and they said at the start they would play devils' advocate, so looking at the work Willy Jackson has been doing elsewhere in the community, he looks to be a decent human being. Some politicians do seem to be very precious about their list options though.

At this stage, I don't think any Labour MPs have said anything that is rude or even incorrect, and they haven't quit their posts like John Key did, they are having a robust discussion, and all of that could have been done in caucus. Taxpayer money has not been squandered, no assets have been sold, no state house tenants have been bundled onto the streets.

The Labour leader is also secure, to the consternation of Craic and FP, who would like to see another changeover, just for the hell of it.

Willy and John have done a great deal together out in the community...if you do you due diligence you may be surprised what you will find.

fungus pudding
09-02-2017, 01:00 PM
It's not perfect, but it's real. Apparently John Tamihere did all the talking in that radio interview, and they said at the start they would play devils' advocate, so looking at the work Willy Jackson has been doing elsewhere in the community, he looks to be a decent human being. Some politicians do seem to be very precious about their list options though.

At this stage, I don't think any Labour MPs have said anything that is rude or even incorrect, and they haven't quit their posts like John Key did, they are having a robust discussion, and all of that could have been done in caucus. Taxpayer money has not been squandered, no assets have been sold, no state house tenants have been bundled onto the streets.

The Labour leader is also secure, to the consternation of Craic and FP, who would like to see another changeover, just for the hell of it.

No eZ. I would like Little to remain leader. Something will arise out of Labour's current mess. Possibly a new party of Labour Greens or something. But meanwhile I would not like to see labour rise in the polls. They are broken and need to be fixed properly - not with a short boost by changing leader. Let them die in peace.

craic
09-02-2017, 02:34 PM
"To the consternation of" is a mindless remark in as far as I am concerned as I would love to see the present leader go into the next election where he will eaten alive, mostly by his own faithful comrades. National will not even have to try in that respect. But it would be better for the nation if they could go to the polls with a young and vibrant leadership who might inspire their supporters. Stuart Nash is the closest I have seen in Labours ranks. I have nothing to lose, regardless of the outcome - I will have turned eighty by the time the result is announced.

westerly
09-02-2017, 04:18 PM
“For example, New Zealand Prime Minister Bill English began his Sunday evening call with Trump by thanking the president for taking the time to talk during the Super Bowl and chatting about New Zealand golfer Bob Charles, said someone briefed on the call. The person said that set the tone for an amicable conversation, even though English went on to express disagreement with Trump’s executive order restricting travel from seven predominantly Muslim countries. “
Quote from Politico.com web site. If the PM really wanted to make an impression he should have told Donald all immigration from the US to NZ was suspended given the thousands of Americans reportedly wanting to come here, until he rescinded his executive order. That would have put NZ and
Bill on the world stage. Could even help his re election chances.
westerly

elZorro
09-02-2017, 05:41 PM
"To the consternation of" is a mindless remark in as far as I am concerned as I would love to see the present leader go into the next election where he will eaten alive, mostly by his own faithful comrades. National will not even have to try in that respect. But it would be better for the nation if they could go to the polls with a young and vibrant leadership who might inspire their supporters. Stuart Nash is the closest I have seen in Labours ranks. I have nothing to lose, regardless of the outcome - I will have turned eighty by the time the result is announced.

What about that bet Craic? :) I will keep something aside.

Press release on Labour's website, they're working through the Jackson - Williams issue.

http://www.labour.org.nz/poto_williams_statement

Stuart Nash does look promising, he's smart in a business-like way. There is just so much more to Labour, he's cut a few corners, he's still in his apprenticeship I think. But it would be great to see another Nash high up in the Labour Party. Keep working, Stuart.

fungus pudding
09-02-2017, 06:54 PM
What about that bet Craic? :)

Stuart Nash does look promising, he's smart in a business-like way. There is just so much more to Labour, he's cut a few corners, he's still in his apprenticeship I think. But it would be great to see another Nash high up in the Labour Party. Keep working, Stuart.

I told you that sometime ago eZ, but you were insistent that Cunliffe, or maybe it was Little, was the perfect leader. Can't remember which one was having a turn when I said that. Wasn't Goff and I don't think it was Shearer. Have I missed any?
Fortunately Stuart Nash doesn't seem anywhere near as red as old Walter.

Major von Tempsky
10-02-2017, 11:03 AM
"The Labour leader is also secure, to the consternation of Craic and FP, who would like to see another changeover, just for the hell of it."

I suspect EZ, as he does so often, is putting thoughts in the minds of Craic and FP that they never said nor thought.

I for one am very keen on Andrew Little staying as Leader of the Labour Party until the election and hopefully after it, regardless of the outcome.

Not because he's good, but because he's useless!

craic
11-02-2017, 04:07 PM
Amazing, how the Left hibernate on the weekends - probably down south trying to re-float dead whales for the Greens.

Bjauck
12-02-2017, 08:56 AM
Amazing, how the Left hibernate on the weekends - probably down south trying to re-float dead whales for the Greens.It was cold down there...surely hibernation takes place to avoid the cold? I think on your scale, I am a leftie and I say let nature take its course in some of these instances, especially when the pods re-strand. Mass strandings have occurred throughout documented history. It replenishes the resources for Lefties' whalebone carvings and pendants ;)

Beached Whale to Bone Carving
http://www.newswire.co.nz/2013/05/beached-whale-to-bone-carvings/

elZorro
13-02-2017, 06:10 PM
Amazing, how the Left hibernate on the weekends - probably down south trying to re-float dead whales for the Greens.

Actually I was a bit crook over the weekend , Craic. Wasn't even from alcohol. But I'm fine now, thanks for asking.

Lefties are wondering if any of the voting public will figure out that Bill is taking us on a bit of a gullibility trip with housing.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/02/duncan-garner-vs-bill-english-on-nz-s-housing-shortage.html

Note he's getting prompts off to the side of the camera.

The fact is, when you look at the new population base National has brought in with their loose immigration policy, one that is not obviously matched to housing availability at the moment, the housing consent rate is still only just average, per head of population for the last few decades. It was far higher in the early 70s. Only a few houses have been built in the special housing areas of Auckland. A few so far. So the ones that are being built, are not for the majority of people at all. This is what has been causing the huge price rises in Auckland for existing stock.

National's policy on immigration has had the desired effect for rentiers, it has greatly inflated their portfolios. It may not have helped the economy long term, but that doesn't seem to be that important for this government. But will it cost them the election?

Major von Tempsky
14-02-2017, 02:52 PM
Given that about two thirds of the population own their own houses, there's a natural majority for rising house prices and people won't vote to crash house prices. Until the lefties realise that, they are just flagellating themselves...

Major von Tempsky
14-02-2017, 03:01 PM
Some prophetic words for the NZLP for EZ etc to ponder "Labour is now the third most popular party among working class voters, a new poll has revealed, as the party faces a close-run battle with Ukip to hold on to one of its key seats in the north.

Research undertaken by YouGov found that Labour ranks behind Ukip and the Conservatives among lower-income voters for what could be the first time in the party's history.

It came as one of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies called Ukip voters in Stoke "toe-rags ... who nick your bike" ahead of a by-election vote later this month. "

iceman
14-02-2017, 05:59 PM
I think a majority of lower income workers are already voting National over Labour and will continue to do so as Labour does not connect with them. Of equal or more interest for this year's election will be to see how Labour's support in the big cities will go this year. The Greens are running some interesting young, fresh candidates that could well take quite a bit of Labour's support in areas such as Auckland Central and Wellington, as well as many other electorates. I hope the Greens give these new candidates high list places to improve their chances of getting into parliament to replace some of the current Green's deadwood.

While the Greens refresh, Labour calls up has beens like Willie Jackson, Greg O'Connor (whom I have the greatest of respect for). Laila Harre etc etc. The question will be which part of the Labour-Green-Alliance will be bigger post election to lead the Opposition against English, Joyce, Peters and Jones !!

westerly
14-02-2017, 06:15 PM
Given that about two thirds of the population own their own houses, there's a natural majority for rising house prices and people won't vote to crash house prices. Until the lefties realise that, they are just flagellating themselves...

About a third own their homes. Another third are mortgaged and the rest rent. The third renting do not want price increases as their rents will rise. If prices keep rising those who actually own their home do not necessarily want rising house prices, any gain in value is reflected in the cost of buying another house if they need to shift. Also many are concerned that it has become extremely difficult for their children, or grandchildren to purchase a property.
The heavily mortgaged want prices to rise obviously, as do the property investors.
National will do nothing as is usual, let the developers run the new house market
Is it possible now to buy a section without a building contract, without restrictive conditions, down to the size and colour of the letter box ?
There is an opportunity for Labour and the Greens there if they are bold enough.

westerly

macduffy
14-02-2017, 07:31 PM
Sorry to pinprick, westerly, but that third with mortgages on their homes do own them!

:mellow:

elZorro
14-02-2017, 08:46 PM
Sorry to pinprick, westerly, but that third with mortgages on their homes do own them!

:mellow:

Not according to the bank, they don't outright own their homes. The banks come along for the ride with virtually no risk overall, and a minimum amount of real cash invested.

Think about these figures though. The ANZ thinks NZ is short of 60,000 homes right now. The govt estimated 30,000 a few years ago, and it's getting worse each year. Now Bill says the shortfall is only 10-20,000, but is highly evasive on where that figure comes from (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/324491/govt-slashes-housing-shortfall-figure-without-explanation). That's because he's like John Key, he just made it up on the spot.

Labour has proposed a KiwiBuild scheme which could produce 100,000 homes over 10 years, and target lower income and middle income prospective homeowners. They've done the numbers.

National thinks that's a joke (it is not), meanwhile these rogues empty state houses (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1702/S00189/hundreds-of-state-houses-empty-during-housing-shortage.htm), put them up for sale, level them into paddocks, stand them idle while they have a think about renovating them. All in some of the worst-hit cities in NZ. They are doing a very good job of ramping up rental costs, and the prices of existing stocks. It's hard to believe they are doing anything other than feathering the nests of the rentiers, and most of them are rentiers too.

Good news today - Greens to stand aside in Ohariu to help ensure a change of govt.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/89355662/greens-step-aside-in-ohariu-to-help-labours-oconnor--despite-misgivings

"Dunne Must be Undone"

artemis
15-02-2017, 10:02 AM
..... these rogues empty state houses (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1702/S00189/hundreds-of-state-houses-empty-during-housing-shortage.htm), put them up for sale, level them into paddocks, stand them idle while they have a think about renovating them. All in some of the worst-hit cities in NZ. ...

I wonder if you have checked out the Housing NZ vacant housing quarterly reports as measured against the Social Housing Register for location and size.

There is a vacant properties report by territorial local authority / reason for vacancy, and another by short-term and long-term vacancy also with reasons.

That would provide some actual facts.

fungus pudding
15-02-2017, 10:10 AM
I wonder if you have checked out the Housing NZ vacant housing quarterly reports as measured against the Social Housing Register for location and size.

There is a vacant properties report by territorial local authority / reason for vacancy, and another by short-term and long-term vacancy also with reasons.

That would provide some actual facts.

eZ works on alternative facts.

westerly
15-02-2017, 10:43 AM
Sorry to pinprick, westerly, but that third with mortgages on their homes do own them!

:mellow:

Technically yes, but in reality only the house value minus the mortgage is theirs.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11651660

westerly

macduffy
15-02-2017, 11:13 AM
Technically yes, but in reality only the house value minus the mortgage is theirs.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11651660

westerly

More pinpricking!

My understanding of the legal position is that the mortgagee bank has a legal "interest" in the property but is not the "owner" of any portion of the property. Happy to be corrected on this point if this is not so.

elZorro
15-02-2017, 09:13 PM
I wonder if you have checked out the Housing NZ vacant housing quarterly reports as measured against the Social Housing Register for location and size.

There is a vacant properties report by territorial local authority / reason for vacancy, and another by short-term and long-term vacancy also with reasons.

That would provide some actual facts.

Are you saying that there are valid reasons for every state house that is boarded up in places like Hamilton, that these cannot be quickly recovered as rentals? No, there are other reasons for some of it. National is just pulling the funding down to a level where they'll only renovate the easiest ones. They'd rather let the rest just sit there, or try and flog them off to take even more money out. They're bleeding it dry like the private sector did to the Railways a few years ago.

One of the special housing areas in Queenstown, the biggest one, is at least partly a gated retirement area with villas, not exactly what the intention was meant to be. That got off the ground OK.

Major von Tempsky
16-02-2017, 03:01 PM
It's very easy to settle Westerly and EZ's points on who owns the house and and who benefits.

Say Mr and Mrs Smith own a house in Hamilton which they bought ten years ago for $500,000 with a $300,000 dollar mortgage.
Now Mr Smith's employer decides to transfer him to Dunedin so the Smith's (not the bank) decide to sell the house.

It goes for $800,000 and the Smith's pay off the bank (it was an interest only loan) the $300,000 they owed it.

Now the Smith's are looking for a mortgage free house in Dunedin for $500,000.
And incidentally thay've decided to vote National now because they don't get taxed on the $500,000, no capital gains tax.

elZorro
16-02-2017, 03:35 PM
It's very easy to settle Westerly and EZ's points on who owns the house and and who benefits.

Say Mr and Mrs Smith own a house in Hamilton which they bought ten years ago for $500,000 with a $300,000 dollar mortgage.
Now Mr Smith's employer decides to transfer him to Dunedin so the Smith's (not the bank) decide to sell the house.

It goes for $800,000 and the Smith's pay off the bank (it was an interest only loan) the $300,000 they owed it.

Now the Smith's are looking for a mortgage free house in Dunedin for $500,000.
And incidentally thay've decided to vote National now because they don't get taxed on the $500,000, no capital gains tax.

It's not that simple. For one, you didn't solve the question of how they were able to move on without paying the bank, if they already owned the house. They only owned 5/8 of it at the time of sale.

They put in $200k, left it there for 10 years, it could have earned 10% in some productive investment, that cost them $200k.
The interest would have been 6% average, that cost $180k.
If they'd rented instead, it would have cost perhaps $230k, but that would have included rates, insurance, some maintenance which they have had to pay, perhaps about $80k for the ten years.

Now we get to the small bit, a potential 15% capital gains tax on the $300k gain. Just $45k.

westerly
16-02-2017, 08:16 PM
It's very easy to settle Westerly and EZ's points on who owns the house and and who benefits.

Say Mr and Mrs Smith own a house in Hamilton which they bought ten years ago for $500,000 with a $300,000 dollar mortgage.
Now Mr Smith's employer decides to transfer him to Dunedin so the Smith's (not the bank) decide to sell the house.

It goes for $800,000 and the Smith's pay off the bank (it was an interest only loan) the $300,000 they owed it.

Now the Smith's are looking for a mortgage free house in Dunedin for $500,000.
And incidentally thay've decided to vote National now because they don't get taxed on the $500,000, no capital gains tax.

If Mr and Mrs Smith were transferring to Hamilton it would of course be a different story. The $800k house would require them to take out a $300k mortgage and at 50 Mr Smith is not very happy. He probably resigned and stayed in Dunedin, on the dole, and he won't vote National.

westerly

elZorro
19-02-2017, 07:23 PM
If Mr and Mrs Smith were transferring to Hamilton it would of course be a different story. The $800k house would require them to take out a $300k mortgage and at 50 Mr Smith is not very happy. He probably resigned and stayed in Dunedin, on the dole, and he won't vote National.

westerly

He would need a scarf, too, plus he'd be very pale and miserable because he wouldn't see the sun much. Any capital gain in Dunedin would be insignificant compared to Mission Bay, Auckland, which apparently reached 55% last year. It was the 'top performing' suburb. Surely this is getting ridiculous.

Labour climbing in the latest Colmar-Brunton poll, National dropping.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/1-news-poll-labour-and-greens-close-gap-national-following-john-keys-departure

winner69
19-02-2017, 07:44 PM
Labour climbing in the latest Colmar-Brunton poll, National dropping.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/1-news-poll-labour-and-greens-close-gap-national-following-john-keys-departure

But Mr Little doesn't really rank in preferred Prime Minister stakes does he EZ

Unloved and unwanted .......and uninspiring being the real reason

elZorro
19-02-2017, 08:03 PM
But Mr Little doesn't really rank in preferred Prime Minister stakes does he EZ

Unloved and unwanted .......and uninspiring being the real reason

Andrew Little doesn't rank at the moment, but he's also not the incumbent. John Key's on 2%, so soon after being leader for years? We probably haven't seen Little at his best, Bill English we already know. He's inspiring, is he? I'm not worried. Do I look worried? :)

Baa_Baa
19-02-2017, 09:00 PM
Andrew Little doesn't rank at the moment, but he's also not the incumbent. John Key's on 2%, so soon after being leader for years? We probably haven't seen Little at his best, Bill English we already know. He's inspiring, is he? I'm not worried. Do I look worried? :)

Andrew Little doesn't rank because he has made himself irrelevant to the issues Kiwis care about and has never had the support of the caucus. He is more preoccupied with keeping his wobbly house of cards intact, and associated party's in order while not losing the leadership role so soon before an election. It all seems very desperate and destined for disaster, again.

Labour by themselves have already tossed in the towel. Labour is a has-been party, by itself it is obsolete, almost gone and forgotten. MMP has dealt a cruel blow to Labour who failed to build on the glory days of Clark, now reconciled to securing alliances with any tom dick harry, or green, that might hopefully make up the numbers. They revile him and labour as well. It's a twisted web they weave as they set out to decieve.

John Key's rating is irrelevant, he's not coming back. The polls simply shows that the vast majority realise that, despite some who choose to point to it as a reason National won't win. Clutching at straws.

Bill English is a great leader, fully versed in all aspects of politics and the economy. I am impressed with his down to earth affinity with grass roots Kiwi's, his time has come to take the fourth term for a great and historic National win in the forthcoming elections. Bill is perfectly placed, right guy, right time, right place. Thanks to John Key, the genious.

It will be another ignoble and inglorious defeat for labour, the only pity is that it has to drag out for another 7 months.

fungus pudding
19-02-2017, 11:57 PM
Andrew Little doesn't rank because he has made himself irrelevant to the issues Kiwis care about and has never had the support of the caucus. He is more preoccupied with keeping his wobbly house of cards intact, and associated party's in order while not losing the leadership role so soon before an election. It all seems very desperate and destined for disaster, again.

Labour by themselves have already tossed in the towel. Labour is a has-been party, by itself it is obsolete, almost gone and forgotten. MMP has dealt a cruel blow to Labour who failed to build on the glory days of Clark, now reconciled to securing alliances with any tom dick harry, or green, that might hopefully make up the numbers. They revile him and labour as well. It's a twisted web they weave as they set out to decieve.

John Key's rating is irrelevant, he's not coming back. The polls simply shows that the vast majority realise that, despite some who choose to point to it as a reason National won't win. Clutching at straws.

Bill English is a great leader, fully versed in all aspects of politics and the economy. I am impressed with his down to earth affinity with grass roots Kiwi's, his time has come to take the fourth term for a great and historic National win in the forthcoming elections. Bill is perfectly placed, right guy, right time, right place. Thanks to John Key, the genious.

It will be another ignoble and inglorious defeat for labour, the only pity is that it has to drag out for another 7 months.

I'm starting to think we might see the birth of a new party to replace Labour and Greens after this election. That could be a very good thing if they find a new leader in their ranks, (Stuart Nash?) and biff out the deadwood starting with their three current leaders or two plus the irrelevant co-leader. And biff out the male/female co leader nonsense as well.

elZorro
20-02-2017, 07:11 AM
I'm starting to think we might see the birth of a new party to replace Labour and Greens after this election. That could be a very good thing if they find a new leader in their ranks, (Stuart Nash?) and biff out the deadwood starting with their three current leaders or two plus the irrelevant co-leader. And biff out the male/female co leader nonsense as well.

Heroic of FP and BB to try to stem the tide of disillusionment with National's policies. FP, you seem to forget that Labour has spent millions on its brand over the years, if it was your money, would you just throw in the towel? Especially since they were in for nine spectacular years last time.

Spoken like a white male, that last line about proportional representation. Labour has a simple rule, their MPs should look like a cross-section of NZ, if possible. Every new candidate for Labour has to take that on board already, when it comes to the list process. Youth, gender, ethnic background, these are all major considerations, along with an ability to think fast, present well, and add to the Labour brand.

BlackPeter
20-02-2017, 07:34 AM
Sorry EZ, but you are asking for it ...


Heroic of FP and BB to try to stem the tide of disillusionment with National's policies. FP, you seem to forget that Labour has spent millions on its brand over the years, if it was your money, would you just throw in the towel? Especially since they were in for nine spectacular years last time.


The old adage of throwing good money after bad money springs to mind. I always thought that the main issues for Labour NZ over the last 8 years or so have been to be clueless, pennyless, lacking leadership talent and having lost the contact with the electorate.

Now - if you say that they invested millions into their brand than I am wondering where the money went. I still see only a old, dusty and tired bunch of people who want to steer NZ firmly back into the 1960'ies. Maybe they need to hire some people who understand rebranding - what is the name of this outstanding marketing agency - Crossby Textor :p?



Spoken like a white male, that last line about proportional representation. Labour has a simple rule, their MPs should look like a cross-section of NZ, if possible. Every new candidate for Labour has to take that on board already, when it comes to the list process. Youth, gender, ethnic background, these are all major considerations, along with an ability to think fast, present well, and add to the Labour brand.

I agree that it is good for a party to represent its electorate across gender, age and racial boundaries. However not sure whether enforcing such a diversity too strictly might do more damage than good. I guess you might just exclude an outstanding crossgender Asian woman at the cost of hiring another mediocre middle aged white male just to ensure that the caucasians get their fair share of representatives. Just kidding.

However reading your aspirational list of requirements for Labours leadership ... particularly "think fast and present well". Just help me to understand how Labour managed to end up with Andrew Little as party leader based on these criteria? Is the Labour talent pool really that exhausted?

fungus pudding
20-02-2017, 08:30 AM
Heroic of FP and BB to try to stem the tide of disillusionment with National's policies. FP, you seem to forget that Labour has spent millions on its brand over the years, if it was your money, would you just throw in the towel? Especially since they were in for nine spectacular years last time.



Yes. I learnt long ago that it's quite pointless throwing good money after bad.
As far as candidate selection goes, they should simply select the best available. Full stop. Any quota system will give an inferior result. Common sense is missing from quota selection.

winner69
20-02-2017, 09:05 AM
I think Mr Reason is a bit jealous of our ex PM

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/89532461/mark-reason-john-key-goes-from-pm-to-shameless-salesman-in-record-time

777
20-02-2017, 09:16 AM
I didn't realise that the Labour Party had any money to spend. You learn something every day.

elZorro
20-02-2017, 05:31 PM
I didn't realise that the Labour Party had any money to spend. You learn something every day.

While Labour will have spent millions, National has probably spent tens of millions. Easy enough to do the numbers.

fungus pudding
20-02-2017, 05:54 PM
While Labour will have spent millions, National has probably spent tens of millions. Easy enough to do the numbers.

Difference is National have spent their money while Labour have wasted theirs.

GTM 3442
21-02-2017, 12:04 AM
I suspect that once upon a time, both Labour and National were mass-membership political parties, which relied on their membership for a significant proportion of their income.

I rather think that them days is gone, and that they now both have a small, financially-irrelevant membership, leaving the parties - and their policies - at the mercy of the donor base.

As for the value of money, it might be instructive to total the warchests of the various Republican candidates for the US Presidency, and see who got how much bang for their buck.

elZorro
21-02-2017, 06:41 PM
I suspect that once upon a time, both Labour and National were mass-membership political parties, which relied on their membership for a significant proportion of their income.

I rather think that them days is gone, and that they now both have a small, financially-irrelevant membership, leaving the parties - and their policies - at the mercy of the donor base.

As for the value of money, it might be instructive to total the warchests of the various Republican candidates for the US Presidency, and see who got how much bang for their buck.

The two main parties don't reveal their paid-up member numbers that often. And despite wishful thinking by some posters here, Labour is the other main party. They have their leader on TV1 on Tuesdays, Bill gets to front on Monday. Labour could have in the region of 15,000 paid-up members, National might have 30,000. Both have had higher numbers in the past, Labour did take a hit in membership during/after Rogernomics. That was understandable, Labour looked more National than the Nats back then. It's simple maths to see that if every paid-up member contributed an average $300 a year, the parties would each have a few million to work with during the election year. This is predominantly used for brand awareness.

fungus pudding
21-02-2017, 06:46 PM
The two main parties don't reveal their paid-up member numbers that often. And despite wishful thinking by some posters here, Labour is the other main party.

Who are they eZ? Care to name them?

elZorro
21-02-2017, 07:49 PM
Who are they eZ? Care to name them? All the members? Closely guarded secret.

Bill English not too sure what's going on.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/89606960/English-punts-talk-of-electoral-deals-Maori-seat-strategy-into-the-stands

Baa_Baa
21-02-2017, 08:32 PM
The two main parties don't reveal their paid-up member numbers that often. And despite wishful thinking by some posters here, Labour is the other main party. They have their leader on TV1 on Tuesdays, Bill gets to front on Monday. Labour could have in the region of 15,000 paid-up members, National might have 30,000. Both have had higher numbers in the past, Labour did take a hit in membership during/after Rogernomics. That was understandable, Labour looked more National than the Nats back then. It's simple maths to see that if every paid-up member contributed an average $300 a year, the parties would each have a few million to work with during the election year. This is predominantly used for brand awareness.

It would be good if the discussion moved on to something meaningful in an election year, like for example policies and alliances to win the election.

This stuff is just trivial and boring. We get it, Labour can't and never will achieve the same or even similar levels of financial support because their supporter base can't possibly ante up enough of a combined share of their government benefits to compete against the filthy rich national supporters.

Can we move on now?

elZorro
22-02-2017, 06:10 AM
It would be good if the discussion moved on to something meaningful in an election year, like for example policies and alliances to win the election.

This stuff is just trivial and boring. We get it, Labour can't and never will achieve the same or even similar levels of financial support because their supporter base can't possibly ante up enough of a combined share of their government benefits to compete against the filthy rich national supporters.

Can we move on now?

It's not quite that simple, Baa Baa. Having more financial support means National can employ the best neoliberal marketing support all through their terms, and they've hired Crosby-Textor continuously since 2004. The strong link between funds used in the last three months leading up to the election, and party votes obtained by National, also says that cash is king.

So that is how National sailed into the 2014 election with no new policies to speak of, and it didn't matter. Labour had a whole lot of good policies that suited their voting base, but no-one heard about them unless they looked hard. Heavy-hitting marketing, Crosby-Textor, bloggers, even iPredict were being used to make it look like National were clear winners well before the election. Perception is reality, and that showed in the polling and the final vote.

This time around Labour is at least not sitting on their hands when it comes to fundraising. They have started to reassess that in a very crude way, you can buy votes, and National has been doing just that to take their wins. I think Helen Clark and Mike Williams understood all that, just lately Labour's head office has been very keen on predictive software and databases, and they are still going to try that in 2017.

BlackPeter
22-02-2017, 07:08 AM
EZ, did it ever occur to you that maybe voters did actually know about Labour's policies and did not like them? I think it would be important for Labour to find that out - nothing worse than investing into more publicity for a bad and unwanted set of policies.

elZorro
22-02-2017, 07:18 AM
EZ, did it ever occur to you that maybe voters did actually know about Labour's policies and did not like them? I think it would be important for Labour to find that out - nothing worse than investing into more publicity for a bad and unwanted set of policies.

Oh, you mean like Labour's KiwiBuild, which will train and employ many tradies, and also get on top of the 35,000 plus housing shortage in Auckland? That was Westpac's assessment recently, but then Bill English says it's more like 10,000 to 20,000 short. Bill is probably right, he's right there in the housing market! KiwiBuild was pounced on and squashed flat by National and the media, but it's still there, still credible. That's just an example.

BlackPeter
22-02-2017, 07:35 AM
Oh, you mean like Labour's KiwiBuild, which will train and employ many tradies, and also get on top of the 35,000 plus housing shortage in Auckland? That was Westpac's assessment recently, but then Bill English says it's more like 10,000 to 20,000 short. Bill is probably right, he's right there in the housing market! KiwiBuild was pounced on and squashed flat by National and the media, but it's still there, still credible. That's just an example.

EZ, Thanks for answering my question ... it appears you are so full of the perceived beauty of Labour's policies that you can't see the view of the ordinary person. Look - dreaming up an aspirational target without talking about the inevitable implications and cost is not a policy - it is a pipe dream.

But hey - who am I to question why the Left is doing what they did the last 3 elections but expecting a different result?

Pick an unpopular leader (net even supported by Labour - they needed the unions to force this guy onto themselves), pick a bunch of hard left wing ideologists who seem to join every election some other party to run it into the ground and tell the electorate that they are wrong and only Labour knows better. What can possibly go wrong?

fungus pudding
22-02-2017, 08:01 AM
Who are they eZ? Care to name them?

You haven't named the posters who you claim wish that Labour were not 'the other main party' Obviously I can only speak for myself. But I for one am happy they are, for they are far ahead of the Greens and Winston first, the only two realistic challengers for no. 2 spot.
That is not to say I am happy with the current Labour line-up and in particular the current leader. I most certainly am not. They're laughable. In all seriousness, it's make or break time for Labour. If they don't improve over the next year they will be in danger of lining up with Winston and the Kermit party - all vying for no. 2 spot. So tell your mates to lift their game. They need to dump Little for a start. He hasn't fired with the public yet - and never will. It takes the X factor, not the zzzzzzzzz factor.. Stuart Nash could possibly save the day.
I think even the most ardent National supporters, of which I am not,* can see the benefit of having an opposition party sitting right up their tale. We all benefit from a strong opposition to the elected party.

* My current support of National is because I always cast my vote to keep out the party I think will do the most harm. To keep that in the context you might understand, if I were an American I would have voted for Clinton, but that is not to say I like her at all.

elZorro
22-02-2017, 06:10 PM
EZ, Thanks for answering my question ... it appears you are so full of the perceived beauty of Labour's policies that you can't see the view of the ordinary person. Look - dreaming up an aspirational target without talking about the inevitable implications and cost is not a policy - it is a pipe dream.

But hey - who am I to question why the Left is doing what they did the last 3 elections but expecting a different result?

Pick an unpopular leader (net even supported by Labour - they needed the unions to force this guy onto themselves), pick a bunch of hard left wing ideologists who seem to join every election some other party to run it into the ground and tell the electorate that they are wrong and only Labour knows better. What can possibly go wrong?

National's housing policy shambles.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/02/govt-s-plan-to-build-houses-on-excess-crown-land-hits-another-roadblock.html

elZorro
22-02-2017, 06:16 PM
You haven't named the posters who you claim wish that Labour were not 'the other main party' Obviously I can only speak for myself. But I for one am happy they are, for they are far ahead of the Greens and Winston first, the only two realistic challengers for no. 2 spot.
That is not to say I am happy with the current Labour line-up and in particular the current leader. I most certainly am not. They're laughable. In all seriousness, it's make or break time for Labour. If they don't improve over the next year they will be in danger of lining up with Winston and the Kermit party - all vying for no. 2 spot. So tell your mates to lift their game. They need to dump Little for a start. He hasn't fired with the public yet - and never will. It takes the X factor, not the zzzzzzzzz factor.. Stuart Nash could possibly save the day.
I think even the most ardent National supporters, of which I am not,* can see the benefit of having an opposition party sitting right up their tale. We all benefit from a strong opposition to the elected party.

* My current support of National is because I always cast my vote to keep out the party I think will do the most harm. To keep that in the context you might understand, if I were an American I would have voted for Clinton, but that is not to say I like her at all.

No, I'm saying that some posters on here, like yourself, assume the Labour Party will just fold up or morph into something else. That's not on the cards. It's more likely Labour will form the next government with the Greens, and we'll see some sensible policy actions for once. We have a housing shortage, because we have so many new immigrants. We have to start planning for more climate change, we have to be ready for a near term disaster in terms of climate and migratory resettlement, because that is very possible. France had a mild winter. Sweden had hardly any snow in the south this year, so I'm told. Our world is changing, we don't need the dinosaur National Party saying she'll be right, carry on as before.

Bill's 1 billion dollar loan for council infrastructure hasn't had much of an uptake, and was perhaps designed more as a test. But Patrick Smellie reveals the reasons behind the apparent disinterest.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/89687045/pattrick-smellie-bill-english-struggles-to-offload-a-billion-dollars?utm_source=ST&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ShareTrader+AM+Update+for+Thursday+23 +February+2017

westerly
23-02-2017, 10:42 AM
It would be good if the discussion moved on to something meaningful in an election year, like for example policies and alliances to win the election.

This stuff is just trivial and boring. We get it, Labour can't and never will achieve the same or even similar levels of financial support because their supporter base can't possibly ante up enough of a combined share of their government benefits to compete against the filthy rich national supporters.

Can we move on now?

The largest group of beneficiarys are the recipients of National Superannuation. National introduced Super. in it’s present form. How many of that group vote National is probably unknown but National has steadfastly refused to alter the scheme in any way despite many saying it is becoming unaffordable.
It is also unfair that it is not means tested or income related. National has the “blue greens “, they also have the “ blue rinse” and their grey or balding husbands, happy to hold their hand out just like all those other lazy good for nothing beneficiarys.

westerly

stoploss
23-02-2017, 10:45 AM
The largest group of beneficiarys are the recipients of National Superannuation. National introduced Super. in it’s present form. How many of that group vote National is probably unknown but National has steadfastly refused to alter the scheme in any way despite many saying it is becoming unaffordable.
It is also unfair that it is not means tested or income related. National has the “blue greens “, they also have the “ blue rinse” and their grey or balding husbands, happy to hold their hand out just like all those other lazy good for nothing beneficiarys.

westerly

westerly , I think you are being unfair to a number of hard working Kiwis who have worked all their lives under the assumption their taxes would go towards NZ Super upon retirement . I see it as an entitlement for all those years worked.
So retirees are not beneficiaries , it is not a hand out ,leg up ...this is an entitlement .

fungus pudding
23-02-2017, 10:48 AM
The largest group of beneficiarys are the recipients of National Superannuation. National introduced Super. in it’s present form. How many of that group vote National is probably unknown but National has steadfastly refused to alter the scheme in any way despite many saying it is becoming unaffordable.
It is also unfair that it is not means tested or income related. National has the “blue greens “, they also have the “ blue rinse” and their grey or balding husbands, happy to hold their hand out just like all those other lazy good for nothing beneficiarys.

westerly

The word is spelt beneficiaries, and the possessive 'its' does not have an apostrophe. It's is a contraction of it is. Universal superannuation is not a benefit. Everyone still alive at 65 gets it in spite of the fact that many never contribute one red cent to it. Ever stopped to think those who 'don't need it' are getting a mere $225 per week, which in many many cases is a mere fraction of what they pay to the Govt. every week - let alone what they will have paid on their way to becoming self sufficient? Thought not.
Fortunately I move in different circles than you do, and happen to know some beneficiaries. I can assure you the ones I know could hardly be considered lazy or good for nothing. Change your friends.

777
23-02-2017, 10:51 AM
The largest group of beneficiarys are the recipients of National Superannuation. National introduced Super. in it’s present form. How many of that group vote National is probably unknown but National has steadfastly refused to alter the scheme in any way despite many saying it is becoming unaffordable.
It is also unfair that it is not means tested or income related. National has the “blue greens “, they also have the “ blue rinse” and their grey or balding husbands, happy to hold their hand out just like all those other lazy good for nothing beneficiarys.

westerly

What an insulting post.

dobby41
23-02-2017, 10:59 AM
The largest group of beneficiarys are the recipients of National Superannuation. National introduced Super. in it’s present form. How many of that group vote National is probably unknown but National has steadfastly refused to alter the scheme in any way despite many saying it is becoming unaffordable.
It is also unfair that it is not means tested or income related. National has the “blue greens “, they also have the “ blue rinse” and their grey or balding husbands, happy to hold their hand out just like all those other lazy good for nothing beneficiarys.

westerly

I'll bite!
You sound very bitter.
I certainly agree that National has been poor in not even listening to any change in the age of entitlement. Increase the super age to 67 (or even 70) but leave the Kiwisaver age where it is. So many options avaliable.
Maybe now that Shonkey is gone National might see sense.

When my turn comes to get the National Super (and the gold card) I'll use the money to have a few extra holidays.
Given I pay around $50k tax per year I might get a small bit back.

fungus pudding
23-02-2017, 11:07 AM
I'll bite!
You sound very bitter.
I certainly agree that National has been poor in not even listening to any change in the age of entitlement. Increase the super age to 67 (or even 70) but leave the Kiwisaver age where it is. So many options avaliable.
Maybe now that Shonkey is gone National might see sense.

When my turn comes to get the National Super (and the gold card) I'll use the money to have a few extra holidays.
Given I pay around $50k tax per year I might get a small bit back.

65 is plenty old enough to retire from many occupations. Try carpet laying after 30 or 40 years of bending. Raising the age is not a good idea, especially considering those who have worn themselves out from physical labour will have been on low pay scales for most of their working lives.

blackcap
23-02-2017, 11:09 AM
The largest group of beneficiarys are the recipients of National Superannuation. National introduced Super. in it’s present form. How many of that group vote National is probably unknown but National has steadfastly refused to alter the scheme in any way despite many saying it is becoming unaffordable.
It is also unfair that it is not means tested or income related. National has the “blue greens “, they also have the “ blue rinse” and their grey or balding husbands, happy to hold their hand out just like all those other lazy good for nothing beneficiarys.

westerly

What a load of tosh that is is not fair that it isn't means tested. Means testing Super would penalise those that have saved and favour those that are not frugal and have lived the high life only to find oops they have nothing at 65. Wrong to incentivise it as such. Also not a benefit, just getting back the tax payments that have gone towards providing the super over the lifetime of work and income tax. My dad just got it and I do not begrudge him one bit even though he is still working on the side and earning about $30k per year with his part time work and has plenty of assets to boot.

dobby41
23-02-2017, 11:17 AM
65 is plenty old enough to retire from many occupations. Try carpet laying after 30 or 40 years of bending. Raising the age is not a good idea, especially considering those who have worn themselves out from physical labour will have been on low pay scales for most of their working lives.

True - and someone had options for that also.
But Shonkey closed down all discussion with a 'not while I'm PM'!

fungus pudding
23-02-2017, 11:44 AM
True - and someone had options for that also.
But Shonkey closed down all discussion with a 'not while I'm PM'!

What law was passed prohibiting discussion? Key did state that he would not raise the age - good on him, but that did not stifle debate or rule out other options. The present scheme is affordable into the foreseeable future.

craic
23-02-2017, 12:02 PM
The current NS is one of the most efficient schemes in the world. In countries where such a scheme is means tested, retirees find dozens of ways around the means test and the successful ones are laughing all the way to the bank while the particular governments involved have to employ an army of public servants to police the system and catch the defaulters. It goes without saying that the cost of this administration comes out of the same budget so little is gained. And the retirees also pay tax- sometimes a lot more than they get from the government.

westerly
23-02-2017, 05:23 PM
The word is spelt beneficiaries, and the possessive 'its' does not have an apostrophe. It's is a contraction of it is. Universal superannuation is not a benefit. Everyone still alive at 65 gets it in spite of the fact that many never contribute one red cent to it. Ever stopped to think those who 'don't need it' are getting a mere $225 per week, which in many many cases is a mere fraction of what they pay to the Govt. every week - let alone what they will have paid on their way to becoming self sufficient? Thought not.
Fortunately I move in different circles than you do, and happen to know some beneficiaries. I can assure you the ones I know could hardly be considered lazy or good for nothing. Change your friends.

“ We get it, Labour can't and never will achieve the same or even similar levels of financial support because their supporter base can't possibly ante up enough of a combined share of their government benefits to compete against the filthy rich national supporters. “

Thankyou for the spelling lesson. I will be more careful in future. The post was in response to the snide comment in the above quote that Labour supporters are all beneficiaries.
I am not bitter, in fact I am extremely lucky to receive a generous payment which call it a benefit or an entitlement is closer to $300 than $225.
What seems to be missing from the responses to my post is the realisation that many of the younger generation believe they will not receive the same or any superanuation as at present and are paying for the present recipients through their own taxation. National of course refusing to supplement the Cullen scheme.
While I don’t believe the age of entitlement should be increased It may in fact have to be reduced given the predictions of automation reducing job opportunities. At some stage means testing as in Australia will be introduced.
I am pleased your beneficiary friends are neither lazy or good for nothing, usually National supporters
are quick to call benefit recipients exactly that.

fungus pudding
23-02-2017, 06:34 PM
usually National supporters are quick to call benefit recipients exactly that.

That sort of comment is ridiculous. I doubt if you know more than a handful of National supporters. No political party can label its supporters with the same tag or beliefs. You can't either. Open your eyes and your mind.

elZorro
23-02-2017, 06:50 PM
That sort of comment is ridiculous. I doubt if you know more than a handful of National supporters. No political party can label its supporters with the same tag or beliefs. You can't either. Open your eyes and your mind.

We all know that in fact, National supporters don't like "dole bludgers" on the whole. They are also likely to be farmers or rurally connected.

Today, the govt made a bit of a statement about clean waterways. Except they moved the goalposts, and just decided that everything's pretty well right, just like it is. Rogues! This has provided a huge policy opening for the Greens and Labour, for the 2017 elections. I think National have misjudged what the average NZer thinks of water quality. Or I hope they have.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/89718668/government-announced-new-target-to-see-90-per-cent-of-rivers-and-lakes-swimmable-by-2040

blackcap
23-02-2017, 07:06 PM
We all know that in fact, National supporters don't like "dole bludgers" on the whole. They are also likely to be farmers or rurally connected.



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Are you saying 50% of NZ'ers do not like "dole bludgers"? I would have thought it would be higher than that....

I do not like dole bludgers either. In fact I detest them. Those however on welfare as a stop gap measure (in between jobs/employment) or those unable to support or help themselves have all my sympathy. It's the element that chooses welfare as a lifestyle choice or those that are too lazy or cannot be bothered to work that deserve our ire and ruin it for the rest.

fungus pudding
23-02-2017, 07:25 PM
We all know that in fact, National supporters don't like "dole bludgers" on the whole. They are also likely to be farmers or rurally connected.


We do not 'all know' anything of the sort. I don't doubt you think that with your preconceived, closed mind; but unless you carry out a professional style poll, and no-one ever has, you cannot possibly know such a thing. Statistically it would be impossible for the majority of National supporters to be farmers. Take your blinkers off eZ. This business of hating everything about National and National voters will increase your paranoia, and that's not good for your health.
I don't think anyone, National or Labour supporters, likes dole bludgers. But not all beneficiaries are dole bludgers.

winner69
23-02-2017, 07:47 PM
The Mayor of Hawera is in the firing line for his baby boomer comments and pensioner bashing

Any politician / party who meddles with National Super will suffer the same - so will anybody dare



http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/89728384/mayors-baby-boomer-comments-backfire-when-pensioners-strike-back

Baa_Baa
23-02-2017, 07:55 PM
Some good stuff here tonight, +1 fungus pudding and +1 blackcap, well put.

Some may have seen my post last night about Mr Little earlier this week calling the Maori party 'not kaupapa'. That really got up my nose and I went on a rant, but decided this morning to remove it. Sorry if anyone saw it and wondered why it had gone this morning. The post needs work, but then I thought it should not be published at all. What would I know about how Maori feel about being insulted!

Are there no Maori here that take umbrage from what Mr Little said?

westerly
23-02-2017, 08:01 PM
That sort of comment is ridiculous. I doubt if you know more than a handful of National supporters. No political party can label its supporters with the same tag or beliefs. You can't either. Open your eyes and your mind.

No more ridiculous than your prediction of the demise of Labour and the Greens or your assumption I move in some lower circle where I don't know
more than a handful of National supporters. On reflection I have probably voted National more than any other party so you know what they say about the word assume. :)

westerly

elZorro
23-02-2017, 08:19 PM
Some good stuff here tonight, +1 fungus pudding and +1 blackcap, well put.

Some may have seen my post last night about Mr Little earlier this week calling the Maori party 'not kaupapa'. That really got up my nose and I went on a rant, but decided this morning to remove it. Sorry if anyone saw it and wondered why it had gone this morning. The post needs work, but then I thought it should not be published at all. What would I know about how Maori feel about being insulted!

Are there no Maori here that take umbrage from what Mr Little said?

Ha, I noticed that no-one argued about water quality bull from National, or that it is very noticeable that in every election, the rural electorates are painted blue. My argument is not that dole bludgers don't exist, and certainly most of us wouldn't do that ourselves. It's just that National/Act supporters tend to be the ones who are most vocal about it. For some reason they don't thank their lucky stars they aren't needing to do the same, they just moan their backsides off about it. And really, the State has lots of bigger bills, like National Super.


In 2013/14 we spent $10.9 billion on superannuation payments.
By comparison, we spent $4.3 billion on other core benefits - comprising $1.7 billion in Jobseeker Support and emergency benefits; $1.2 billion in sole parent support; and $1.4 billion in supported living payments.
Budget 2015/16 provides $12.2 billion for New Zealand Superannuation payments - an increase of 12 percent from two years earlier.
Provisions for other core benefits remains unchanged from 2013/14 at $4.3 billion - around one-third of the cost of New Zealand Superannuation.


Labour takes the approach that their policies will keep people in work, retrain some, empower others.

Hundreds told they'd be laid off in the last week, Cadburys and The Warehouse. Haven't heard from FP about that. Presumably, like the Railways Workshop, it was a clapped out Dunedin business that was an eyesore.

fungus pudding
24-02-2017, 01:05 AM
No more ridiculous than your prediction of the demise of Labour and the Greens or your assumption I move in some lower circle where I don't know
more than a handful of National supporters. On reflection I have probably voted National more than any other party so you know what they say about the word assume. :)

westerly

I said you probably don't know more than a handful of National supporters. It is you who decided to call the circle you move in 'lower'. Only you could know that.
It doesn't matter two hoots who you have voted for. It does not mean you know lots of people who vote along the same lines. But if you do know a fair few National supporters, and they mostly think beneficiaries are dole bludgers, that is statistically irrelevant.

fungus pudding
24-02-2017, 05:59 AM
Hundreds told they'd be laid off in the last week, Cadburys and The Warehouse. Haven't heard from FP about that. Presumably, like the Railways Workshop, it was a clapped out Dunedin business that was an eyesore.

Well, you will hear now. Cadbury's have considered moving many times over the years, but remained in Dunedin because the climate here is ideal for manufacturing chocolate, so they said. I suppose that has changed with modern air conditioning because they no longer quote it as an advantage. That said, 70% of their production is exported. Of the remaining 30% it would be reasonable to assume that 75% of that goes to the Nth Island. It seems to me quite illogical to continue manufacturing so far from their consumer base. That's true for all FMCG producers. Change is a fact of life, and what Cadbury's do is their business. What the Warehouse do is their business, but these businesses do no-one a favour if they don't keep their pencils very sharp. Ever wondered why we don't still have a blacksmith's shop on every corner?

elZorro
24-02-2017, 06:16 AM
Well, you will hear now. Cadbury's have considered moving many times over the years, but remained in Dunedin because the climate here is ideal for manufacturing chocolate, so they said. I suppose that has changed with modern air conditioning because they no longer quote it as an advantage. That said, 70% of their production is exported. Of the remaining 30% it would be reasonable to assume that 75% of that goes to the Nth Island. It seems to me quite illogical to continue manufacturing so far from their consumer base. That's true for all FMCG producers. Change is a fact of life, and what Cadbury's do is their business. What the Warehouse do is their business, but these businesses do no-one a favour if they don't keep their pencils very sharp. Ever wondered why we don't still have a blacksmith's shop on every corner?

No reply on the rest of that post, you're being a bit selective, FP. Cadbury was a major employer in Dunedin, and having a running, elegant factory added to the tourist attraction of the site, another income stream for the region. This was another longstanding business that retained links with the past. The business was not running at a loss, they'd been spending quite a bit on capital improvements, I assume some of that gear will be packed up and sent to Australia. Their chocolate recipe had been modified for the major Australian market, so it could survive on the warm shelves there. Whittakers don't need to step into this manufacturing space, they are already doing quite well, no doubt they can expand their existing plant(s).

But again, this is a clear loss of manufacturing jobs. We didn't hear the govt come up with any ideas to encourage new manufacturers into Dunedin, they are hands off on that, which probably suits them, since they are bereft of good policies across the board.

BlackPeter
24-02-2017, 07:32 AM
No reply on the rest of that post, you're being a bit selective, FP. Cadbury was a major employer in Dunedin, and having a running, elegant factory added to the tourist attraction of the site, another income stream for the region. This was another longstanding business that retained links with the past. The business was not running at a loss, they'd been spending quite a bit on capital improvements, I assume some of that gear will be packed up and sent to Australia. Their chocolate recipe had been modified for the major Australian market, so it could survive on the warm shelves there. Whittakers don't need to step into this manufacturing space, they are already doing quite well, no doubt they can expand their existing plant(s).

But again, this is a clear loss of manufacturing jobs. We didn't hear the govt come up with any ideas to encourage new manufacturers into Dunedin, they are hands off on that, which probably suits them, since they are bereft of good policies across the board.

Why are you so bitter EZ? Cadbury is the manufacturer of its own failure. Decades ago they still produced some good chocolate - and every time some product was running well they replaced it with something consumers didn't like. Last straw for us was when they replaced their delicious "Marble" with "Turkish Delight". We stopped buying Cadbury at that time, and I assume so did many others.

How is this the governments failure? Sure - probably a hapless and greedy management not caring for their customers, but just tell me - what would have Labour done to change that - nationalising Cadbury?

fungus pudding
24-02-2017, 08:12 AM
No reply on the rest of that post, you're being a bit selective, FP. Cadbury was a major employer in Dunedin, and having a running, elegant factory added to the tourist attraction of the site, another income stream for the region. This was another longstanding business that retained links with the past. The business was not running at a loss, they'd been spending quite a bit on capital improvements, I assume some of that gear will be packed up and sent to Australia. Their chocolate recipe had been modified for the major Australian market, so it could survive on the warm shelves there. Whittakers don't need to step into this manufacturing space, they are already doing quite well, no doubt they can expand their existing plant(s).

But again, this is a clear loss of manufacturing jobs. We didn't hear the govt come up with any ideas to encourage new manufacturers into Dunedin, they are hands off on that, which probably suits them, since they are bereft of good policies across the board.
Dunedin is doing extremely well with software development companies. Big business and expanding with large job numbers. Of course some businesses choose to relocate. They presumably know what they are doing after 100 plus years in the city. That's life.

Bjauck
24-02-2017, 08:39 AM
...
But again, this is a clear loss of manufacturing jobs. We didn't hear the govt come up with any ideas to encourage new manufacturers into Dunedin, they are hands off on that, which probably suits them, since they are bereft of good policies across the board.

The last few years has seen an overall loss in manufacturing jobs in Dunedin, despite a rise in national figures. I imagine the loss of Cadbury will continue this trend. Unless the NZ government makes Dunedin into a special development zone with tax and other concessions. Something like that may entice internal and external migrants away from overcrowded Auckland. Perhaps.

I used to be a Cadbury buyer until their palm oil period, which, among other concerns, I considered was their cynical disregard of their consumers.

winner69
24-02-2017, 03:10 PM
Labour lose a seat they have held since the 1930 s in by-election in the UK and they are the opposition for god's sake

Corbyn's a sorry sight - the more I see of him I can't stop seeing a lot of Little in him.

Suppose after he's overseen the total wipeout by Labour later this year we just might see a reinvigorated Labour Party or is too late

Sad really

fungus pudding
24-02-2017, 03:57 PM
Labour lose a seat they have held since the 1930 s in by-election in the UK and they are the opposition for god's sake

Corbyn's a sorry sight - the more I see of him I can't stop seeing a lot of Little in him.

Suppose after he's overseen the total wipeout by Labour later this year we just might see a reinvigorated Labour Party or is too late

Sad really

The sad thing is Labour won't ditch Little before the election, knowing full-well he does not hit the spot with the public. They'd get a bit of ridicule if they changed leader again, but they'll get a lot more with a low vote.

macduffy
24-02-2017, 04:06 PM
The sad thing is Labour won't ditch Little before the election, knowing full-well he does not hit the spot with the public. They'd get a bit of ridicule if they changed leader again, but they'll get a lot more with a low vote.

But wouldn't it be a hoot if, with Greens' plus Winnie's support he ended up as NZ Prime Minister in September?

Just kidding!!!!

;)

fungus pudding
24-02-2017, 04:10 PM
But wouldn't it be a hoot if, with Greens' plus Winnie's support he ended up as NZ Prime Minister in September?

Just kidding!!!!

;)

No joke. It's distinctly possible, given that is Peters' ambition, and neither Labour or the Greens have a capable leader. I can't think of a worse scenario of that trio trying to function - but it's a threat. Winston's price will be leadership which National would quite sensibly not accept.

craic
24-02-2017, 04:29 PM
Bill English gave a very competent display of sheepshearing. I'm told that Mr little is receiving lessons and hopes to milk a goat in public before the election. Biggest problem is deciding which goat to milk.

GTM 3442
24-02-2017, 05:15 PM
Bill English gave a very competent display of sheepshearing. I'm told that Mr little is receiving lessons and hopes to milk a goat in public before the election. Biggest problem is deciding which goat to milk.

Perhaps he could milk Mister Shearer's fish?

elZorro
24-02-2017, 05:36 PM
Perhaps he could milk Mister Shearer's fish?

Well he probably won't go near any swimmable waterways, because they're not exactly 100% swimmable. John Key's abdicated, housing policies are a mess, we're just scraping into a surplus but the govt has to borrow to pay the interest, and Nick Smith is making the usual hash of anything he has a go at. I don't think National supporters can afford to poke fun at the opposition.

Guess who's taking the Mt Albert seat tomorrow? If National is so powerful, why aren't they even trying to compete there? Because they would have been thrashed.

Baa_Baa
24-02-2017, 05:44 PM
The sad thing is Labour won't ditch Little before the election, knowing full-well he does not hit the spot with the public. They'd get a bit of ridicule if they changed leader again, but they'll get a lot more with a low vote.

Surely can't do worse than Cunliffe 😳

fungus pudding
24-02-2017, 06:03 PM
Well he probably won't go near any swimmable waterways, because they're not exactly 100% swimmable. John Key's abdicated, housing policies are a mess, we're just scraping into a surplus but the govt has to borrow to pay the interest, and Nick Smith is making the usual hash of anything he has a go at. I don't think National supporters can afford to poke fun at the opposition.

Guess who's taking the Mt Albert seat tomorrow? If National is so powerful, why aren't they even trying to compete there? Because they would have been thrashed.

What a silly thing to say. Obviously Aderne will win, meaning the Mr Albert residents will lose. Why would National waste resources!

GTM 3442
24-02-2017, 06:26 PM
Well he probably won't go near any swimmable waterways, because they're not exactly 100% swimmable. John Key's abdicated, housing policies are a mess, we're just scraping into a surplus but the govt has to borrow to pay the interest, and Nick Smith is making the usual hash of anything he has a go at. I don't think National supporters can afford to poke fun at the opposition.

Guess who's taking the Mt Albert seat tomorrow? If National is so powerful, why aren't they even trying to compete there? Because they would have been thrashed.

I think National supporters can well afford to poke fun at the opposition - just as I think Labour supporters can well afford to poke fun at the government.

And whilst the Green's sense of humour is a debatable proposition, they're equally welcome to brandish the odd witticism here and there should they feel the need.

But please - can we move on from the insecurity of over-dramatizing a Labour win in a safe Labour seat.

elZorro
24-02-2017, 09:35 PM
I think National supporters can well afford to poke fun at the opposition - just as I think Labour supporters can well afford to poke fun at the government.

And whilst the Green's sense of humour is a debatable proposition, they're equally welcome to brandish the odd witticism here and there should they feel the need.

But please - can we move on from the insecurity of over-dramatizing a Labour win in a safe Labour seat.

Sure, there's plenty to work with this week.

fungus pudding
25-02-2017, 07:21 AM
I think National supporters can well afford to poke fun at the opposition - just as I think Labour supporters can well afford to poke fun at the government.

And whilst the Green's sense of humour is a debatable proposition, they're equally welcome to brandish the odd witticism here and there should they feel the need.

But please - can we move on from the insecurity of over-dramatizing a Labour win in a safe Labour seat.

No. If you do not want to read the posts, then don't. But please don't deprive those who are doing God's work, the enjoyment of winding up the paranoid eZ to the point of combustion.

elZorro
25-02-2017, 07:41 AM
No. If you do not want to read the posts, then don't. But please don't deprive those who are doing God's work, the enjoyment of winding up the paranoid eZ to the point of combustion.

I have a feeling that today will be a good day, and anyway I'm well aware you guys often just wind up the lefties like me, for a bit of amusement. But you have to admit, we often have the facts on our side, and the truth is that your old mate John Key wouldn't have been able to have his face plastered on all the election hoardings for National in 2017. He'd started to collect too much baggage. Way too much.

Now we all have to suffer through Bill English reading out his speech notes in that dull manner, it'll be interesting to see his handling of the quickfire questions he's going to get from the media, leading up to the elections.

I suspect National will continue to bluff their way through this water quality issue, one which we all know is heavily affected by widespread point source pollution from dairy herds in particular.


As NIWA (National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research) says: “Pastoral farming—which accounts for 40 percent of New Zealand’s land area—is undoubtedly the main source of diffuse pollution…. Streams in dairy land are among the most polluted.”
from SAFE website.

They'll need to do better than that, as the Left (Labour-Greens) are going to bring this through as a protest of some sort, maybe like the one W69 is always asking for (or are you just bored, W69?).

fungus pudding
25-02-2017, 08:55 AM
I have a feeling that today will be a good day, and anyway I'm well aware you guys often just wind up the lefties like me, for a bit of amusement. But you have to admit, we often have the facts on our side, and the truth is that your old mate John Key wouldn't have been able to have his face plastered on all the election hoardings for National in 2017. He'd started to collect too much baggage. Way too much.

Now we all have to suffer through Bill English reading out his speech notes in that dull manner, it'll be interesting to see his handling of the quickfire questions he's going to get from the media, leading up to the elections.



Don't overlook the fact that English has only one MP who outperforms him in the house. Labour or the Greens don't have anyone who can upstage him.

craic
25-02-2017, 02:12 PM
Best portrait of Helen Clarke that I've seen in years.
Sure, there's plenty to work with this week.

GTM 3442
25-02-2017, 03:38 PM
No. If you do not want to read the posts, then don't. But please don't deprive those who are doing God's work, the enjoyment of winding up the paranoid eZ to the point of combustion.

Oh, fungus!

You surely don't mean that. Where's your compassion? Spontaneous human combustion is surely too great a penalty for idealism - or for mere disagreement.

Spare a thought for the emergency services who would have to attend the incident, and to clean up afterwards.

artemis
25-02-2017, 05:27 PM
.....
But again, this is a clear loss of manufacturing jobs. We didn't hear the govt come up with any ideas to encourage new manufacturers into Dunedin, they are hands off on that, which probably suits them, since they are bereft of good policies across the board.

Dunedin has a healthy tech and biotech sector. Some are global already - eg BLT, PEB. Applications can be made for Callaghan grants. Given Dunedin's location, large scale manufacturing is not likely to be top of many investment lists. But the local politicians will be highly supportive, so no reason they can't give it a go if they can make the numbers work.

winner69
26-02-2017, 08:44 AM
There were 45,800 registered voter - Jacinda got ~22% of the total possible vote. Seems about normal for Labour

The Did not Votes 'polled' ~70%

So most Labour people turned out to support Jacinda - but it appears as if hey couldn't convert any of the Did not Vote people - ominous sign for them as they say they need to capture a lot of those people

And worse still minutes after the result came through I got a email from Andrew saying what a huge win and Labour really on a roll .......so please please click the button below to donate ...ha ha

fungus pudding
26-02-2017, 08:53 AM
There were 45,800 registered voter - Jacinda got ~22% of the total possible vote. Seems about normal for Labour

The Did not Votes 'polled' ~70%

So most Labour people turned out to support Jacinda - but it appears as if hey couldn't convert any of the Did not Vote people - ominous sign for them as they say they need to capture a lot of those people

And worse still minutes after the result came through I got a email from Andrew saying what a huge win and Labour really on a roll .......so please please click the button below to donate ...ha ha

Yeah, eZ will be along to crow shortly as well. This must have been the most predictable election outcome in the history of New Zealand, if not the entire world. But it won't stop Andrew crowing - poor devil. He doesn't get many chances to beat his drum.

777
26-02-2017, 08:58 AM
Well it was a big win over the Greens.

macduffy
26-02-2017, 11:13 AM
Well it was a big win over the Greens.

Yes, really hammered those Greens!

:t_up:

Hang on, aren't they our allies - or something?

:eek2:

elZorro
26-02-2017, 07:18 PM
There were 45,800 registered voter - Jacinda got ~22% of the total possible vote. Seems about normal for Labour

The Did not Votes 'polled' ~70%

So most Labour people turned out to support Jacinda - but it appears as if hey couldn't convert any of the Did not Vote people - ominous sign for them as they say they need to capture a lot of those people

And worse still minutes after the result came through I got a email from Andrew saying what a huge win and Labour really on a roll .......so please please click the button below to donate ...ha ha

Why are you on Labour's email list W69? You must have liked something they did at some stage. Like my music teacher said, "little and often", those donation calls just aren't going away. I think the idea must be working.

What a great win for Labour at Mt Albert, although it would have been sweeter if they'd thrashed National at the same time. There is certainly some merit in posting Jacinda higher, maybe to deputy leader. It would balance them out age-wise, and geographically. Plus she is very popular, right across the board.

Baa_Baa
26-02-2017, 07:58 PM
Why are you on Labour's email list W69? You must have liked something they did at some stage. Like my music teacher said, "little and often", those donation calls just aren't going away. I think the idea must be working.

What a great win for Labour at Mt Albert, although it would have been sweeter if they'd thrashed National at the same time. There is certainly some merit in posting Jacinda higher, maybe to deputy leader. It would balance them out age-wise, and geographically. Plus she is very popular, right across the board.

Sounds desperate, maybe Jacinda should be Labour leader? Forget the 2IC role, just get someone (her?) without a personality bypass into the leadership. I'd bet Labour would do better with the lovely Jacinda at the helm than they will with Mr Little. Sigh. Must be so disheartening being a Labour devotee.

elZorro
26-02-2017, 10:14 PM
Sounds desperate, maybe Jacinda should be Labour leader? Forget the 2IC role, just get someone (her?) without a personality bypass into the leadership. I'd bet Labour would do better with the lovely Jacinda at the helm than they will with Mr Little. Sigh. Must be so disheartening being a Labour devotee.

I get it, you have to be good looking to be a good politician or leader? Labour already has the leader they're taking to the next election. National has theirs by default, they didn't even have a proper selection process. And while Bill might be able to shear a sheep, I'd set the bar a bit higher if I was a National voter.

fungus pudding
27-02-2017, 07:46 AM
I get it, you have to be good looking to be a good politician or leader? Labour already has the leader they're taking to the next election. National has theirs by default, they didn't even have a proper selection process. And while Bill might be able to shear a sheep, I'd set the bar a bit higher if I was a National voter.

Come on eZ. Surely you're not telling us Mr. Little is not good looking!

elZorro
27-02-2017, 05:44 PM
Come on eZ. Surely you're not telling us Mr. Little is not good looking!

Let's talk policy for once. FP, you are perfectly situated to comment on this article by Shamubeel in the weekend. He's done some research, and pointed out that Dunners, being a regional hub, is doing particularly poorly in the manufacturing stakes. He has some solutions, but is the govt helping with any of those?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/89748017/shamubeel-eaqub-the-disappearing-world-of-manufacturing-jobs

fungus pudding
27-02-2017, 06:07 PM
Let's talk policy for once. FP, you are perfectly situated to comment on this article by Shamubeel in the weekend. He's done some research, and pointed out that Dunners, being a regional hub, is doing particularly poorly in the manufacturing stakes. He has some solutions, but is the govt helping with any of those?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/89748017/shamubeel-eaqub-the-disappearing-world-of-manufacturing-jobs

Don't know - didn't see it. Haven't read it.

elZorro
27-02-2017, 06:19 PM
Don't know - didn't see it. Haven't read it. Oh well, you should, it was in the SST on Sunday. You can also click on the link and the whole article will open up :). But why let facts get in the way of an argument?

Major von Tempsky
27-02-2017, 06:40 PM
But why subsidise Dunners or any other NZ town? You simply lower the overall standard of living! If you subsidize everyone the economy crashes like Venezuela!

Baa_Baa
27-02-2017, 06:41 PM
Let's talk policy for once. FP, you are perfectly situated to comment on this article by Shamubeel in the weekend. He's done some research, and pointed out that Dunners, being a regional hub, is doing particularly poorly in the manufacturing stakes. He has some solutions, but is the govt helping with any of those?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/89748017/shamubeel-eaqub-the-disappearing-world-of-manufacturing-jobs

Given that you never ask a question without having your own answers, I'll bite. What do you think the government should do, particularly what should they do differently from what Shamubeel suggests? Government is not here to protect declining industry, and they do have policy and processes to help the workers who fall through the cracks and cannot find alternative work.

"The reaction from politicians and policy makers should be to support those facing redundancy and help them back into work. Longer term, we need to ensure workers of tomorrow are acquiring the right kind of skills to operate in a very different world of work."

I think that you frequently confuse the roles of the Executive government (law makers) and the government administration (policy creators and implementers) which out lives the Executive.

fungus pudding
27-02-2017, 07:23 PM
Oh well, you should, it was in the SST on Sunday. You can also click on the link and the whole article will open up :). But why let facts get in the way of an argument?

Manufacturing in Dunedin is ridiculous. We have and will continue to have better industries. Leave manufacturing to where raw products are sourced and / or are closer to markets. If you want to manufacture in Dunedin or Stewart Island for that matter, go for your life.

Snow Leopard
27-02-2017, 07:37 PM
Government should provide financial assistance to Whittaker's to take over Cadbury's factory specifically for the manufacture of Dark Ghana blocks for export to each and every country that I may be residing in, visiting or changing planes at.

I have not seen a DG block for like a month now and I need my fix.

The political party that does that gets my vote (when I am allowed to).

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Baa_Baa
27-02-2017, 07:56 PM
Government should provide financial assistance to Whittaker's to take over Cadbury's factory specifically for the manufacture of Dark Ghana blocks for export to each and every country that I may be residing in, visiting or changing planes at.

I have not seen a DG block for like a month now and I need my fix.

The political party that does that gets my vote (when I am allowed to).

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Of course tongue in cheek. ;)

Whittakers are now fourth generation NZ owned chocolate manufacturers (think about it, there can't be too many 1890's start-ups still prospering and growing in NZ?) who once moved their manufacturing from Christchurch to Porirua, north of Wellington.

The last thing Whittakers need is government support, and have quickly rejected the notion of buying the Cadbury's plant. They'll do fine without any government interventions or handouts. It's a great example of a privately owned NZ business who made good decisions, the first being to invest in their manufacturing capability and their people, secondly to continuously innovate and capture hearts, minds and taste buds, and lastly not to sell out to the first international that came their way.

Cadbury has had it coming, they did all of the opposite things. Now some people on political chat groups think that for some unfathomable reasons that the government should be doing something to stop or reverse an accumulation of stupid commercial decisions.

fungus pudding
27-02-2017, 08:10 PM
Of course tongue in cheek. ;)

Whittakers are now fourth generation NZ owned chocolate manufacturers (think about it, there can't be too many 1890's start-ups still prospering and growing in NZ?) who once moved their manufacturing from Christchurch to Porirua, north of Wellington.

The last thing Whittakers need is government support, and have quickly rejected the notion of buying the Cadbury's plant. They'll do fine without any government interventions or handouts. It's a great example of a privately owned NZ business who made good decisions, the first being to invest in their manufacturing capability and their people, secondly to continuously innovate and capture hearts, minds and taste buds, and lastly not to sell out to the first international that came their way.

Cadbury has had it coming, they did all of the opposite things. Now some people on political chat groups think that for some unfathomable reasons that the government should be doing something to stop or reverse an accumulation of stupid commercial decisions.

Are you telling us that Cadbury's have done it all wrong? I think they'd be surprised to learn that.

Snow Leopard
27-02-2017, 08:12 PM
Of course tongue in cheek....

I thought it sat a little higher than that.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Baa_Baa
27-02-2017, 08:20 PM
Are you telling us that Cadbury's have done it all wrong? I think they'd be surprised to learn that.

Mondelez International should not be surprised at all, imo, it has all been down hill since they have failed to innovate, destroyed a famous NZ brand by changing recipes and downsizing portions, and they are now closing their manufacturing in NZ because it is not viable. What part of that is surprising?

Soon enough we'll hear that is all because of the 'government'.

elZorro
27-02-2017, 09:34 PM
Mondelez International should not be surprised at all, imo, it has all been down hill since they have failed to innovate, destroyed a famous NZ brand by changing recipes and downsizing portions, and they are now closing their manufacturing in NZ because it is not viable. What part of that is surprising?

Soon enough we'll hear that is all because of the 'government'.

I would agree with most here: since it is disappointing that Cadbury decided that they could make more profits manufacturing in third-world countries rather than developed ones, our purchasing loyalty should go to Whittakers, being a real NZ-based alternative. And that's something that the government could encourage - keep production in NZ, keep innovating and linking up with other NZ businesses, build NZ-made brands that can be exported.

Too often this government stands back and doesn't give any direction, when we've paid taxes for them to give us a bit of leadership and direction as a nation. They react after the event, or they don't react at all. Look at some of the WINZ homeless in motels, giving NZ tourism a bad name. Just part of the baggage that National will carry to this election.

fungus pudding
27-02-2017, 11:23 PM
Mondelez International should not be surprised at all, imo, it has all been down hill since they have failed to innovate, destroyed a famous NZ brand by changing recipes and downsizing portions, and they are now closing their manufacturing in NZ because it is not viable. What part of that is surprising?

Soon enough we'll hear that is all because of the 'government'.

I think they are doing alright. Not sure why you think otherwise.

fungus pudding
27-02-2017, 11:53 PM
Too often this government stands back and doesn't give any direction, when we've paid taxes for them to give us a bit of leadership and direction as a nation. They react after the event, or they don't react at all. Look at some of the WINZ homeless in motels, giving NZ tourism a bad name. Just part of the baggage that National will carry to this election.

Quite right eZ. Knocking the stuffing out ot them too.
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7149-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-february-2017-201702271519

elZorro
28-02-2017, 05:42 AM
Quite right eZ. Knocking the stuffing out ot them too.
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7149-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-february-2017-201702271519

This would be a poll to landlines, right? It's just part of the story.



Today’s special Roy Morgan analysis of New Zealand’s ‘Housing Crisis’ reveals 26% of respondents in NZ (http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7131-housing-issues-dominate-new-zealand-election-february-2017-201702271518) said either Housing affordability/ Increasing house prices (15%) or Housing shortage/ Homelessness (11%) were the biggest problems facing New Zealand. In New Zealand’s largest city of Auckland Housing issues were mentioned by an even higher 32% of respondents.“These figures show that the most effective way English can secure a fourth successive term of Government for National is to convince New Zealand electors that it is National that has the answers to deal with these inter-related Housing issues rather than their opponents Labour, the Greens, or even New Zealand First.”

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 05:50 AM
This would be a poll to landlines, right? It's just part of the story.



Electors were asked: “If a New Zealand Election were held today which party would receive your party vote?” This latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll on voting intention was conducted by telephone – both landline and mobile telephone – with a NZ wide cross-section of 852 electors between January 30 – February 12, 2017. Of all electors surveyed 5.5% (down 1%) didn’t name a party.

elZorro
28-02-2017, 06:46 AM
Electors were asked: “If a New Zealand Election were held today which party would receive your party vote?” This latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll on voting intention was conducted by telephone – both landline and mobile telephone – with a NZ wide cross-section of 852 electors between January 30 – February 12, 2017. Of all electors surveyed 5.5% (down 1%) didn’t name a party.

Undecideds were still high, plus I wonder how they obtained cellphone numbers, as most are unpublished. I suspect all of the people who were contacted by cellphone also had a landline to their residence, which puts them in a certain profile. Anyway some bad news for National has been in the press since the poll was conducted. I tried to get the latest Moreu cartoon, but settled for this one:

winner69
28-02-2017, 07:05 AM
Quite right eZ. Knocking the stuffing out ot them too.
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7149-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-february-2017-201702271519

If that was a share price chart one would have to say the stock NAT is range trading (in a tight range) and the stock LAB is in a long term downtrend from it's peak in 2015

blackcap
28-02-2017, 07:47 AM
If that was a sharer price chart one would have to say the stock NAT is range trading (in a tight range) and the stock LAB is in a long term downtrend from it's peak in 2015

Obviously its time to short Labour and we will have to wait for a breakout before deciding what to do with National?

winner69
28-02-2017, 07:55 AM
Obviously its time to short Labour and we will have to wait for a breakout before deciding what to do with National?

Performance probably reflects relative Balance Sheet strength - from a financial and intellectual point of view.

Also the market seems to reflect better future prospects for NAT over LAB

craic
28-02-2017, 08:35 AM
Don't know where you guys are coming from but my early morning insomnia caused me to listen to the early morning news/discussions on the economy, employment and the like. The small business economy is booming (they had the figures) and the regions are roaring. Every figure contradicting everything elZ preaches. Huge problems with employment because so many prospective employees fail the drug tests except migrants who don't fail. There are one or two areas going down but that is seen as evolution. Maybe its about time that the left accepted the reality that we are one of the free worlds most successful economies. Ok, a bunch of airline passengers had to spend a night sleeping on a Marae because there was no hotel accommodation available in Auckland. So we have an accommodation problem - Most places in the world would love to be able to say that their hotels are full all the time. And the airline passengers had a ball that they will tell their grandchildren about. I look forward to the election and hope that there aren't enough mugs in the country to change the government.

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 08:53 AM
Undecideds were still high, plus I wonder how they obtained cellphone numbers, as most are unpublished. I suspect all of the people who were contacted by cellphone also had a landline to their residence, which puts them in a certain profile. Anyway some bad news for National has been in the press since the poll was conducted. I tried to get the latest Moreu cartoon, but settled for this one:

Of course eZ. Hadn't thought of all that, although there might be a giant presumption in there about the cellphone owners also having landlines or whatever it was you said. Anyway, why is English holding Andrew's snooze count in the cartoon? Did he steal it from somewhere.

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 08:54 AM
Don't know where you guys are coming from but my early morning insomnia caused me to listen to the early morning news/discussions on the economy, employment and the like. The small business economy is booming (they had the figures) and the regions are roaring. Every figure contradicting everything elZ preaches. Huge problems with employment because so many prospective employees fail the drug tests except migrants who don't fail. There are one or two areas going down but that is seen as evolution. Maybe its about time that the left accepted the reality that we are one of the free worlds most successful economies. Ok, a bunch of airline passengers had to spend a night sleeping on a Marae because there was no hotel accommodation available in Auckland. So we have an accommodation problem - Most places in the world would love to be able to say that their hotels are full all the time. And the airline passengers had a ball that they will tell their grandchildren about. I look forward to the election and hope that there aren't enough mugs in the country to change the government.

There aren't.

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 09:07 AM
Damn tourism number up again. Hotels boked out, pesky tourists keeping shops busy and getting in the way, wanting service for everything. Let's discourage all this sight-seeing nonsense and get back to eZ's real jobs. Making chocolate bars a few thousand kms from where they are wanted, and a few other really exciting factory jobs. Time to stop all those IT businesses too. New fangled industry that stuff - back to shoeing horses. Eh eZ! Whadday' reckin?

westerly
28-02-2017, 10:39 AM
FP, 3 posts in a row, MVT complained about EZ and multiple posts but you must be seriously concerned about Nationals chances?
Or did you just wake up more grumpier than usual? :)

westerly

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 10:45 AM
FP, 3 posts in a row, MVT complained about EZ and multiple posts but you must be seriously concerned about Nationals chances?
Or did you just wake up more grumpier than usual? :)

westerly
I can quite understand complaints about eZ's posts, irrespective of number. But mine are different. Educational and enlightening, and provided for the edification and enjoyment of all the readers.

Sgt Pepper
28-02-2017, 11:08 AM
Damn tourism number up again. Hotels boked out, pesky tourists keeping shops busy and getting in the way, wanting service for everything. Let's discourage all this sight-seeing nonsense and get back to eZ's real jobs. Making chocolate bars a few thousand kms from where they are wanted, and a few other really exciting factory jobs. Time to stop all those IT businesses too. New fangled industry that stuff - back to shoeing horses. Eh eZ! Whadday' reckin?

well I think EZ is considerably more knowledgeable about the IT industry then either you or me.
Just curious: have you ever lost your job due to restructuring or industry closure and had a young family to support and a mortgage to service?

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 12:24 PM
well I think EZ is considerably more knowledgeable about the IT industry then either you or me.
Just curious: have you ever lost your job due to restructuring or industry closure and had a young family to support and a mortgage to service?

All of those things, but that question has no relevance to this discussion, except to say the cruelest thing that can happen to employees is when the business is put on some sort of lifeline. dying is a natural part of businesses, and alternatives will not arise in the face of propped up last leg enterprises. Necessity is the mother of invention and innovation.

blackcap
28-02-2017, 12:35 PM
All of those things, but that question has no relevance to this discussion, except to say the cruelest thing that can happen to employees is when the business is put on some sort of lifeline. dying is a natural part of businesses, and alternatives will not arise in the face of propped up last leg enterprises. Necessity is the mother of invention and innovation.

Maybe but I think it could be relevant to this discussion. Because one can argue that this is the reason that Trump won the US elections. Will it help Labour win in NZ? I doubt it, but it is relevant. Trump ran on keeping "dying" industries alive, there were many people hurting and the belief in a "lifeline" gave them the hope and drive to vote for Trump. I think this is one where Trump is going to find it difficult to live up to the promise as its not immigration but automation that will decimate jobs worldwide. First in high minimum wage environments like NZ and progressively to those with lower minimum wages.

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 12:51 PM
Maybe but I think it could be relevant to this discussion. Because one can argue that this is the reason that Trump won the US elections. Will it help Labour win in NZ? I doubt it, but it is relevant. Trump ran on keeping "dying" industries alive, there were many people hurting and the belief in a "lifeline" gave them the hope and drive to vote for Trump. I think this is one where Trump is going to find it difficult to live up to the promise as its not immigration but automation that will decimate jobs worldwide. First in high minimum wage environments like NZ and progressively to those with lower minimum wages.

It's certainly robotics and automation that has eaten into US jobs. But new fields are opening up all the time. Let manufacturing disappear to 3rd world countries. Lift living standards in USA and developing countries. There will be few manufacturing jobs anywhere in 20 years, so get into the new economy now.

dobby41
28-02-2017, 01:43 PM
It's certainly robotics and automation that has eaten into US jobs. But new fields are opening up all the time. Let manufacturing disappear to 3rd world countries. Lift living standards in USA and developing countries. There will be few manufacturing jobs anywhere in 20 years, so get into the new economy now.

Then NZ needs a plan to get the people in a position to participate in the 'new economy'.
There are many people who currently aren't educated to participate - there are only so many low skilled people a country needs when low skilled jobs go to robots.
I don't see a plan from the Govt yet.

Major von Tempsky
28-02-2017, 01:56 PM
Just for Blackcaps benefit - Trump lost the US election by nearly 3 million votes. If they had had an NZ type system of MMP Hilary Clinton would be President/Prime Minister. In the mid term elections next year (if Trump survives Impeachment until then) there will be no Electoral College to save him.

blackcap
28-02-2017, 02:23 PM
Just for Blackcaps benefit - Trump lost the US election by nearly 3 million votes. If they had had an NZ type system of MMP Hilary Clinton would be President/Prime Minister. In the mid term elections next year (if Trump survives Impeachment until then) there will be no Electoral College to save him.

This has absolutely nothing with my point MVT. Trump is the President last time I looked and not Hillary. So I guess Trump won the election. (the US do not have MMP so what is your argument exactly?) What mid-term elections are you talking about? Trump will not be taking part as far as I am aware so he will be president to 2020.
However my point was that he used the "pain" of those displaced by technology to get to where he did in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Whether that could apply in a NZ situation I doubt.

elZorro
28-02-2017, 04:01 PM
Just a quick general reply, I have never favoured run-of-the-mill manufacturing in NZ. It has to be special. So if Whittakers network with other NZ produce suppliers to make special NZ chocolates for here and for export, that's a niche area that is safer longer term. IT is also good in some specialist areas, and low-volume, high value manufacturing for export and nationwide use can also be done well here. There are some objects that are too big/bulky/low value/low volume that will always be manufactured here too.

elZorro
28-02-2017, 04:06 PM
I can quite understand complaints about eZ's posts, irrespective of number. But mine are different. Educational and enlightening, and provided for the edification and enjoyment of all the readers.

I'm sure that's right, FP. I might tag that post later, if I remember.

Bill English implies that heaps of young NZers can't get jobs because they're on drugs. But back in 2014:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11184479


More clever, clever National policy.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/89822138/unswimmable-lagoon-now-deemed-swimmable-under-revised-standards

GTM 3442
28-02-2017, 08:03 PM
It's certainly robotics and automation that has eaten into US jobs. But new fields are opening up all the time. Let manufacturing disappear to 3rd world countries. Lift living standards in USA and developing countries. There will be few manufacturing jobs anywhere in 20 years, so get into the new economy now.


What will we all do in this new economy? For a few generations we've made stuff, or administered stuff.

Now, with no making or administering, how do we fill our golden leisure hours? There is, after all, only a certain demand for telephone sanitizers, lawn mowers, and goldfish personal trainers.

fungus pudding
28-02-2017, 08:16 PM
What will we all do in this new economy? For a few generations we've made stuff, or administered stuff.

Now, with no making or administering, how do we fill our golden leisure hours? There is, after all, only a certain demand for telephone sanitizers, lawn mowers, and goldfish personal trainers.

All will be revealed. Stick around as the industrial revolution ends and the world moves into the new golden age.

elZorro
28-02-2017, 08:18 PM
What will we all do in this new economy? For a few generations we've made stuff, or administered stuff.

Now, with no making or administering, how do we fill our golden leisure hours? There is, after all, only a certain demand for telephone sanitizers, lawn mowers, and goldfish personal trainers.

Yep, people in the services industry don't get paid that much, either.

Tracy Watkins, usually a right-wing reporter, has finally figured some things out.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/89907495/government-fighting-immigrations-tentacles-on-every-front

elZorro
01-03-2017, 06:52 AM
Since National brought up water quality again, and just proposed a change to the standards as part of a fix, it's worth remembering this written quote from Bruce Wills, then the President of Federated Farmers, on 11 Dec 2011:


For the record, I don't define ‘clean water' as the ability to drink straight out of the Tamaki River, but the ability to see your hands in water without falling ill afterwards. When you look at all of your daily uses of water, where it goes and what happens to it, what does clean water mean to you?

Note he's talking about an urban river, and sheeting pollution back to humans in this case. But almost all human waste in NZ is now treated in some way, usually quite carefully. When we have twenty times the level of human waste coming from dairy cows alone in NZ, much of it exposed in paddocks to rainfall and seeping through the ground, we have a very big problem if the farming lobby's attitude isn't changing quickly.

fungus pudding
01-03-2017, 09:25 AM
King stepping down. Big loss to Labour. Pity they haven't got a good replacement in their female ranks, so they'll go for 3rd best as deputy unless they abandon the ridiculous gender balance nonsense.

dobby41
01-03-2017, 09:33 AM
King stepping down. Big loss to Labour. Pity they haven't got a good replacement in their female ranks, so they'll go for 3rd best as deputy unless they abandon the ridiculous gender balance nonsense.

Room now for Jacinda which is what many wanted.

elZorro
01-03-2017, 10:11 AM
Room now for Jacinda which is what many wanted.

Yes, Labour are losing a very capable and experienced MP, who was good at question time, making National squirm. But it frees up another safe Labour seat at the next election, and also lets Jacinda into the deputy post with a minimum of fuss. Personally I was hoping this would be what was going to happen, good timing for Labour. Politicos might not be all impressed, but the average voter will appreciate the change in Labour's ranks. Apparently Jacinda is no lightweight in the brains department, either.

blackcap
01-03-2017, 10:16 AM
Apparently Jacinda is no lightweight in the brains department, either.

I have heard otherwise, that she is pretty vacuous and a bit of an attention seeker (al la women's weekly photo ops). Also has never worked a day in her life (except in a fish n chips shop as a teen), and been at the trough of politics since completing university.

That all said, this will give Labour a boost (albeit slightly) as the above attributes will probably appeal to the voting public and Annette was really getting a bit long in the tooth.

Still at 26% how is Andrew Little going to get into parliament?