If National wins ...

[Joshuatree]

Comrade comrade fungus; have you looked under your bed; might be a bogeyman there .
Gutter politics is all i can see.

[jonu]

Comrade comrade fungus; have you looked under your bed; might be a bogeyman there .
Gutter politics is all i can see.

In fairness JT it was a cringeworthy effort of populist nonsense. And she did use the comrade term a nauseating amount. The timing and phrasing would suggest she has had a fair amount of media and speech writing training. She certainly knows a good sound byte which is what the media laps up.

[Joshuatree]

bill has had a fair amount of media and speech training too and after all these years he is coming across worse then ever.Why? Its because he doesn't believe what he is saying and that transparency shows; what a turn off.

[Bjauck]

Yes. Sorry. I thought it had an e on the end; an unusual surname. My apologies to you and Comrade Ardern.
No more unusual than plenty of other surnames!

John Key or is that Keys, Keay, Quay or Qué?
Bill English or Is that Inglis?
James Bolger or is that Bolgar, Boulger, Bulger or Bulgur?

[fungus pudding]

Comrade comrade fungus; have you looked under your bed; might be a bogeyman there .
Gutter politics is all i can see.

I'm not sure shy you think a video of Comrade Ardern is gutter politics. She was simply addressing an audience in her own way.

[jonu]

bill has had a fair amount of media and speech training too and after all these years he is coming across worse then ever.Why? Its because he doesn't believe what he is saying and that transparency shows; what a turn off.

I think it has more to do with that he has the charisma of a wooden post. That shouldn't detract from his ability but it does in our photo opp, sound bite driven world. People's attention spans are so short they just lap up whoever is more photogenic or loud. Can you imagine Rooseveldt being elected today? From a wheelchair?

[dobby41]

I think it has more to do with that he has the charisma of a wooden post. That shouldn't detract from his ability but it does in our photo opp, sound bite driven world. People's attention spans are so short they just lap up whoever is more photogenic or loud. Can you imagine Rooseveldt being elected today? From a wheelchair?

JK had no substance but people loved him.
Proves your point.
In the end is may be wrong but it is what it is.

[winner69]

Is Jacinda the new Richard Prebble ....now what was he famous for now?

At least JT will be happy - quick trip to the big smoke now

[Joshuatree]

No comprehende w69. Didn't see her here, why put up with the chaotic, insane congestion in Auckland, no way.

[Major von Tempsky]

Seems to have escaped EZ and JT's attention that new railway passenger ideas are doomed to failure, and the ones that have "succeeded" have done so because of high and growing rates and taxes on the ratepayers and taxpayers for ever growing subsidies.

[dobby41]

Seems to have escaped EZ and JT's attention that new railway passenger ideas are doomed to failure, and the ones that have "succeeded" have done so because of high and growing rates and taxes on the ratepayers and taxpayers for ever growing subsidies.

OK - back to congested roads then.
Obviously no other option.

[Joshuatree]

Yeah 10 new roads after the ten new bridges that never eventuated. Nats tired old solutions; lets do a big infrastructure project to make NZ a better place lol. Ghost roads and bridges?

[winner69]

Wow


http://www.labour.org.nz/our_new_ads?utm_campaign=170822_ads&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

[BlackPeter]

Wow


http://www.labour.org.nz/our_new_ads?utm_campaign=170822_ads&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

Not bad for an ad, though a bit long "foreplay". They clearly manage to create some sort of "common feel good mood" without divulging any of the cruelties they need to commit to pay for their play. Quite clever.

Just wondering, EZ - given that you always talked highly of Crosby Textor (I wouldn't know, don't know them)- are they now working for Labour ;)?

[blackcap]

Just wondering, EZ - given that you always talked highly of Crosby Textor (I wouldn't know, don't know them)- are they now working for Labour ;)?

LOL classic call.

Must admit the ad is pretty good. Bill really needs to up his game. Odds on National giving PM are now over 1.50 at Betfair so its tightening up quite quickly.

[jonu]

Yeah 10 new roads after the ten new bridges that never eventuated. Nats tired old solutions; lets do a big infrastructure project to make NZ a better place lol. Ghost roads and bridges?

I agree the 10 bridges was a nonsense call. I live in Northland and those bridges aren't hindering us at all. That said, I personally have sen surveyors working at 3 of the locations, so I presume they are preparing the engineering

[BlackPeter]

Have a look at that: https://www.national.org.nz/together

Obviously - it is just a feel good election video as well ... but - I like the music and it looks and sounds much more professional.

EZ, maybe your party didn't pay CT enough to make Labours video ... just saying.

[Joshuatree]

Wow


http://www.labour.org.nz/our_new_ads?utm_campaign=170822_ads&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

Great stuff , we really have a good competition on now; no sleepwalking apathetic public. I bet the turnout will be higher than it has been for a long time. was that u in the blue and yellow tie Comrade fungus pudding; smart and out on a limb.;)

[elZorro]

Have a look at that: https://www.national.org.nz/together

Obviously - it is just a feel good election video as well ... but - I like the music and it looks and sounds much more professional.

EZ, maybe your party didn't pay CT enough to make Labours video ... just saying.

Sounds like National made their own sound track up, beats copying, like last election. That court fine must be due anytime now.

Of course Labour's advert is better, they had time to improve on the Nat's July release.

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/07/21/lets-get-together-nationals-campaign-video-ticks-all-the-boxes/

And no, Labour won't be using Crosby-Textor because they'd never work for centre-left parties, and anyway they have a conflict of interest, they'll still be trying to keep National in power. Fat chance this time.

[Bjauck]

I agree the 10 bridges was a nonsense call. I live in Northland and those bridges aren't hindering us at all. That said, I personally have sen surveyors working at 3 of the locations, so I presume they are preparing the engineering

Infill housing and the densely populated developments around Auckland must be starting to make light rail feasible for such potential lines as:
1. City to the Airport
2. Link from Panmure station to Pakuranga-Howick
3. Howick through Flat Bush to Manukau.
4. City to Albany

It would require dispensing with tax cuts in order to fund the infrastructure needed. However the goverrnment could also increase duty on petrol, introduce congestion charging for cars and reduce funding for roads to help pay for it. Unpopular in the short-term, so unlikely to happen - so Auckland will continue to rely on imported cars and need more and more crowded multi-lane highways.

[Baa_Baa]

The best thing about Jacinda apart from reenvigorating the Labour Party is that win or lose she's got time on her side, like Helen had. If she takes the win or takes the loss on the chin, and stays the course, it seems inevitable that one day she will be Prime Minister. That if nothing else will galvanise the National party, though I think inevitability will prevail, if not this time, eventually.

[Snow Leopard]

Wow


http://www.labour.org.nz/our_new_ads?utm_campaign=170822_ads&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

This IS how you should do "Let's do this":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNesq_P4luE

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[Bjauck]

The best thing about Jacinda apart from reenvigorating the Labour Party is that win or lose she's got time on her side, like Helen had. If she takes the win or takes the loss on the chin, and stays the course, it seems inevitable that one day she will be Prime Minister. That if nothing else will galvanise the National party, though I think inevitability will prevail, if not this time, eventually.
I am wondering if the Jacinda effect has meant that Labour has peaked too soon? They should have waited another few weeks....before replacing Little. After the election, if they lose, I think she would stay as leader of the opposition and have a good chance of winning the next one.

[elZorro]

This IS how you should do "Let's do this":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNesq_P4luE

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Oops, I see the slogan has been used before, but that's OK. I'm not a great fan of reggae myself, it might not have a big appeal all through NZ. Far better would be a new campaign theme song from one of our brilliant NZ composers like Don McGlashan (Anchor Me etc) or for attack songs, Darren Watson (Planet Key). Many arty people are lefties, for good reason. I hope some of them can make a big difference in the few weeks that are left for campaigning.

Shortcut to Labour's announced policies. (http://www.labour.org.nz/announced_policies)

[Major von Tempsky]

Very good analysis here, NZH, Andrew Dickens.
The new direction stance is seductive because it's based on feelings. A feeling that things can be better, so let's give someone different a crack.

The question I've been asked by many people lately is "do you think Labour can win?".

The answer is they have a better chance than they've had for near enough a decade.

Labour and Jacinda Ardern might scrape into power as long as they don't speak about policy and keep the feeling of change rolling for another month.

I thought the "lipstick on a pig" controversy was manipulated magnificently by the left, keeping the focus on feelings and not facts. Gareth Morgan's message was vote on policies not personalities. Fair enough. But the debate became centred on the second part of his tweet, which was a mildly offensive mis-placed euphemism. Was the left really horrified by the phrase? Or were the howls of outrage just noise to cover Labour's Achilles heel of policy?

Yesterday in The PM Job Interview broadcast on nzherald.co.nz, Ardern kept well away from policy.

[blackcap]

Wow.... 1.69 available on National now. Putting that into % chances that means National are now a 59% chance to win the election.

2 weeks ago they were at 1.30 or a 77% chance to win the election. Things change quickly....

[Joshuatree]

Racetrack was firm now its heavy :)

[winner69]

Racetrack was firm now its heavy :)


.....but still quite a few hurdles to jump before the finishing post

[fungus pudding]

What now for Dunne's seat? The greens seem to have abandoned their deal not to stand, and the no 27 on the list is now standing in the electorate. He doesn't want anyone to vote for him and says he's only after the party vote. Is he mad? Someone obviously doesn't know how the 2 votes work. Be funny if he split the vote and National won the seat. I can't follow the logic, and can only assume he's a loose canon and thrown his name in without the party's approval. Should be good for a laugh.

[minimoke]

What now for Dunne's seat? The greens seem to have abandoned their deal not to stand, and the no 27 on the list is now standing in the electorate. He doesn't want anyone to vote for him and says he's only after the party vote. Is he mad? Someone obviously doesn't know how the 2 votes work. Be funny if he split the vote and National won the seat. I can't follow the logic, and can only assume he's a loose canon and thrown his name in without the party's approval. Should be good for a laugh.
Some where there must be a seat calculator. If greens manage to scavange enough votes here to get over 5% and labour dont win the seat but national does what is the net impact on Parliament. Presumably the Green vote would be at the expense of the labour vote reducing labours overall seat potential.

Seems to me Greens are desperate for every 0.1% of the vote even if it means destroying the relationship with your potential partner.

Which only serves to confirm my prejudice that they are nothing but a bunch of snouts looking for a trough

[Baa_Baa]

[snip]... Seems to me Greens are desperate for every 0.1% of the vote even if it means destroying the relationship with your potential partner.

Which only serves to confirm my prejudice that they are nothing but a bunch of snouts looking for a trough

You have a good point there minimoke, 2017 could be the end of the Greens in Parliament at this rate. They shat in their nest with a poorly thought out strategy that's gone bad on them, now their only hope is to shaft their coalition partner in some vain hope of getting above 5%. Not looking too good for them at this stage.

[Baa_Baa]

I am wondering if the Jacinda effect has meant that Labour has peaked too soon? They should have waited another few weeks....before replacing Little. After the election, if they lose, I think she would stay as leader of the opposition and have a good chance of winning the next one.

Wisdom of hindsight might suggest they made an incredibly insightful decision to get rid of Little who was dragging the party into unknown territory below even Cunliffe, however in as much as whether they're peaking too soon, I reckon you'll be right.

As the next few weeks unfold the Jacinda effect will shift towards the 'are Labours policies really for me' and given that they have kept their policy agenda to themselves, they better have something really appealing up their sleeves or they'll see their ratings having peaked on the Jacinta news only to fade a bit and then implode around the Leaders debate time and into the election.

Frankly I can't see Labour winning this but at least they've made a good fist of it and they'll be a stronger opposition and a realistic choice for the 2020 election.

[minimoke]

You have a good point there minimoke, 2017 could be the end of the Greens in Parliament at this rate. They shat in their nest with a poorly thought out strategy that's gone bad on them, now their only hope is to shaft their coalition partner in some vain hope of getting above 5%. Not looking too good for them at this stage.
I dont have the calculator. But Greens from memory got 15% of Party vote in Ohariu last time which is only a smidge of the overall NZ party vote. The Greens loony enough to vote for their guy on the party vote are also probably loony enough to vote fro him on the electoral seat as retribution for what Labour did to Meteria. Net winner is National - both electorate and party vote

[minimoke]

Frankly I can't see Labour winning this but at least they've made a good fist of it and they'll be a stronger opposition and a realistic choice for the 2020 election.
Its not about labour. I reckon the labour / national party vote wil now settle within cooee of the latest polls (future major surprises excepted)

Its about NZ First, and Greens second. Neither Labour nor national wil get enough to govern their own. National have just lost one seat with Dunne exiting stage right. If Greens get enough party vote it will be a the expense of labours part vote. In which case wil Labour want to work with them - after tonights announcement even less so. Which means they have to be more appealing to NZ First - which is much easier to do with no Greens hanging on to the coat tails.

[elZorro]

Wisdom of hindsight might suggest they made an incredibly insightful decision to get rid of Little who was dragging the party into unknown territory below even Cunliffe, however in as much as whether they're peaking too soon, I reckon you'll be right.

As the next few weeks unfold the Jacinda effect will shift towards the 'are Labours policies really for me' and given that they have kept their policy agenda to themselves, they better have something really appealing up their sleeves or they'll see their ratings having peaked on the Jacinta news only to fade a bit and then implode around the Leaders debate time and into the election.

Frankly I can't see Labour winning this but at least they've made a good fist of it and they'll be a stronger opposition and a realistic choice for the 2020 election.

Labour can easily win this - just consider that 50% of the voters are female, for a start. You might be surprised to know that people throughout the country are falling over themselves to offer Labour new sign spots, mainly for Jacinda signs. Plus they're donating money and time also.

As for Labour policy that you haven't found using Google, I know they're going to bring back the R&D tax credits, and there are many others here:

http://www.labour.org.nz/announced_policies

[Baa_Baa]

As for Labour policy that you haven't found using Google, I know they're going to bring back the R&D tax credits, and there are many others here:

http://www.labour.org.nz/announced_policies

Really EZ, Labour need to realise the voters don't go to google or anywhere else to 'find' their policies, Labour needs to put their policies out, top of and front of mind. The election won't be won on who has the broadest smile, it will be won on who bothers to vote and whether they know what they're voting for. Labour has a lot of ground to catch up on in this respect, at this stage in the build up to the election, imo.

[elZorro]

Really EZ, Labour need to realise the voters don't go to google or anywhere else to 'find' their policies, Labour needs to put their policies out, top of and front of mind. The election won't be won on who has the broadest smile, it will be won on who bothers to vote and whether they know what they're voting for. Labour has a lot of ground to catch up on in this respect, at this stage in the build up to the election, imo.

It's really up to the media like the Herald to do a spreadsheet comparing policies in different areas, and also the TV channels have something on voter preferences. A flyer to every voter is a very expensive exercise and can't cover it all, and the TV channels concentrate on just one or two policies with each interview, or just sound bites. I'm confident any sane, reasoned person will find a lot to like with Labour's policies.

These are policies that will grow the economy in a more sustainable way, and will lift every person.

[fungus pudding]

You have a good point there minimoke, 2017 could be the end of the Greens in Parliament at this rate. They shat in their nest with a poorly thought out strategy that's gone bad on them, now their only hope is to shaft their coalition partner in some vain hope of getting above 5%. Not looking too good for them at this stage.

But standing in the electorate will not, or should not, make any difference to their party vote. This is nuts and leaves them looking even sillier than they looked before. No logic in it whatsoever.

[dobby41]

It's really up to the media like the Herald to do a spreadsheet comparing policies in different areas,

Aren't they doing that each day - listing how the policies compare subject by subject?

[elZorro]

Aren't they doing that each day - listing how the policies compare subject by subject?

Yes, maybe for major parties, but it's very fragmented too. The VoteCompass site on TV1 is easy to use and produces interesting results.

https://votecompass.tvnz.co.nz/

However, you can't look behind the questions to see what the various policies of each party are, because they're more interested in gathering data. But over 100,000 people have used the site so far.

[BlackPeter]

....

I'm confident any sane, reasoned person will find a lot to like with Labour's policies.

These are policies that will grow the economy in a more sustainable way, and will lift every person.

Give us a break, will you? I guess we all realise that you are only here to push the Labour agenda, but this is a bit thick, even for you.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/05/labours_policy_remains_guilty_unless_you_can_prove _you_are_innocent.html

Major Labour player's (Poto Williams and Andrew Little), proposed only months ago "guilty until proven innocent". No sane reasonable person would like or support this crazy and absolutely unjust policy.

I guess I can see how this policy is going to lift more innocent people into prison, but is this really how Labour is going to grow the economy? Create a better and fairer system?

[blackcap]

Right very interesting. My bet at 1.83 on National to win the election just got taken. Yes that now makes National only a 55% chance to win the election. That is not to get the most seats in the house, no but to have the PM. (ie a National led govt). I may put some more money up a bit higher and see if there are takers.....:)

[fungus pudding]

Right very interesting. My bet at 1.83 on National to win the election just got taken. Yes that now makes National only a 55% chance to win the election. That is not to get the most seats in the house, no but to have the PM. (ie a National led govt). I may put some more money up a bit higher and see if there are takers.....:)

Don't forget eZ's words of wisdom - that these betting sites are fixed and somehow controlled by National. Used to get his knickers in a real knot. So ignore any odds.

[elZorro]

Don't forget eZ's words of wisdom - that these betting sites are fixed and somehow controlled by National. Used to get his knickers in a real knot. So ignore any odds.

That was just iPredict, and I could definitely sometimes see the effect of Matthew Hooten manipulating the odds just before he produced the weekly or daily report.

What is Labour paying? Maybe I should have a bet:)

[blackcap]

Don't forget eZ's words of wisdom - that these betting sites are fixed and somehow controlled by National. Used to get his knickers in a real knot. So ignore any odds.

Ah yes the good old conspiracy theory that he thought National supporters were manipulating markets.

Labour are only paying $2.20 at the moment ElZorro :)( that is to be the party that provides the PM). However maybe dichotomously they are paying $6.20 to have the most seats. Maybe this bet offers you more value? National are the hot hot favourite at 1.15 to get the most seats but only $1.83 to be the party that provides the PM.

I think there are opportunities there. Betfair.com

[fungus pudding]

That was just iPredict, and I could definitely sometimes see the effect of Matthew Hooten manipulating the odds just before he produced the weekly or daily report.



I've heard he's doing the same with this one.

[zacman]

Nothing like an election to bring an old poster out of hibernation ...

Some general observations ...

1 All elections are about leaders' personalities. Look at last years US elections. Trump has a personality that appealed to sufficient voters whereas Hillary is fairly insipid

2 It is not a question of Labour not having any policy but rather failing to effectively articulate those policies. In any event see point 1

3 Labour's Rapid rail for Auckland to Tauranga is long overdue. Since Pebble and Michael Fay our rail has been heavily underutilised especially for passengers. Overseas experience shows what can be achieved. However Minimoke makes a good point re cost

4 Both main parties have let down future generations by failing to address the need for capital gains tax and to address superannuation costs

5 The Greens standing a candidate in Oharia will be to Labours advantage. The party vote is more important than the electorate vote. Whether or not labour win in Oharia is secondary to their total vote. However if Green supporters can be encouraged to vote for a candidate then they are likely to also vote for their party rather than stay at home. This will help them to get to 5% which is vital to Labour's chances

6 I predict a Labour/Greens/Maori coalition government

zacman

[BlackPeter]

Nothing like an election to bring an old poster out of hibernation ...


Welcome back!



6 I predict a Labour/Greens/Maori coalition government

zacman

Just out of curiosity ... didn't you forget Winston First?

I see as well the risk for a Labour / NZF / Green / Maori Party conglomerate come election day (in case Winston wants to go with Green and Jacinda wants to go with Winston), but I just can't see how Labour could form a government without Winston - or do you expect Labour to rise another 10% in the polls?

[zacman]

Yes I believe Jacinda will get there without NZFirst. She won't want Peters but she also won't want Prosser the tosser

[elZorro]

Yes I believe Jacinda will get there without NZFirst. She won't want Peters but she also won't want Prosser the tosser

You make some good points, Zacman. It would be great to think that elections are won on policy alone, but that's not the case. If it was, Labour would have been back in power a long time ago.

I'm sure the Greens are stable on at least 8% of the vote, they've been working on it for decades, and the issues they talk about aren't going away, they're ready to bite us in the backside.

Costs to get a light rail service running have to be defrayed by the reduced loading on very expensive roads, and the benefits for people who need more flexible transport than rail. Greens transport plan for Wellington. (https://www.greens.org.nz/wellington-transport)

A coalition composed mainly of the Labour and Green parties will make the tough decisions that this country needs, for a more stable future.

Comment on the PREFU from London. (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/08/24/44551/real-news-hidden-under-prefus-exec-summary)

[BlackPeter]

Yes I believe Jacinda will get there without NZFirst. She won't want Peters but she also won't want Prosser the tosser

Mmh - you might be right regarding Jacinda's feelings towards NZF (not that I am an expert on that), but I doubt that she will get the numbers to allow her the luxury of acting on her feelings, if you see what I mean.

Is there any base for your believe (that she would have sufficient numbers without NZF) you are able to share with us? I can't remember any poll suggesting such a constellation.

Personally would I think anyway that Peters (if the voters put him into a kingmaker position) would remember his roots and go with National. Lets face it - the one term he worked from 2005 with Labour was a disaster for him and his party.

But hey , maybe this time its different ...

[jonu]

I can't see the Maori Party ever going into coalition with Labour. It was born out of dissatisfaction with Labour and in a coalition they wouldn't get Maori Affairs portfolio either.

Interesting piece by Barry Soper stating polling for preferred PM and polling for who you would most trust to manage the country are quite different. Bill English fares much better in the second question

[fungus pudding]

I can't see the Maori Party ever going into coalition with Labour. It was born out of dissatisfaction with Labour and in a coalition they wouldn't get Maori Affairs portfolio either.

Interesting piece by Barry Soper stating polling for preferred PM and polling for who you would most trust to manage the country are quite different. Bill English fares much better in the second question

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11910584

[elZorro]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11910584

I wonder which side Barry Soper's on. Here's one from the left, Bryan Gould, and I'm sure Jacinda Ardern will be reading this and making some mental notes.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11909972

Another favourable writeup in the Sydney Morning Herald.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/jacinda-ardern-breath-of-fresh-air-encouraging-change-for-nz-20170823-gy23fj.html

[Joshuatree]

And there we have it .

"It is here that Jacinda Ardern has the chance to lay out a vision of an economy, and more importantly, a society, that is moving in a more socially and environmentally aware and responsible direction."
This is territory that is tailor-made for a young leader in tune with the "hopes of those whose lives lie before them. If she can convincingly articulate a set of values which will guide her on issues yet to be confronted, she will have taken a huge step towards winning, not just on personality, but on the hard issues of politics as well."

[fungus pudding]

Another favourable writeup in the Sydney Morning Herald.


Would you seriously give any credence to an Aussie advising on politics?

[winner69]

The Jacinda effect is now a Jacinda tsunami - that's what I read on Stuff

May as well call the election off - declare her the PM now

Would save a lot of time - and people can get back to doing productive stuff again.

[elZorro]

Just been helping put up some Jacinda signs, so good to see that kind of article, W69.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96186963/Jacinda-effect-becomes-a-tsunami-in-South-Auckland

It's the first time for a while, some positive changes are in the air.

[BlackPeter]

The Jacinda effect is now a Jacinda tsunami - that's what I read on Stuff

May as well call the election off - declare her the PM now

Would save a lot of time - and people can get back to doing productive stuff again.

But are tsunamis in South Auckland really that desirable, even if they are called Jacinda? We need to make sure voters are not drowning in her ... might end up with bad press :scared:

[elZorro]

But are tsunamis in South Auckland really that desirable, even if they are called Jacinda? We need to make sure voters are not drowning in her ... might end up with bad press :scared:

Jacinda was down there in Dunedin, also had a good reception compared to Bill English.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/labour-matches-nationals-promise-new-dunedin-hospital-fully-funded-taxpayer

[winner69]

Bill's lost the plot I reckon

[fungus pudding]

Jacinda was down there in Dunedin, also had a good reception compared to Bill English.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/labour-matches-nationals-promise-new-dunedin-hospital-fully-funded-taxpayer

What do you expect? Dunedin is full of dour Scottish pessimism and have elected such wonders as Brian McDonnell who remained anonymous in parliament for two decades; the minister of speeches, Bill Fraser. The useless David Benson Pope who even his own party disowned. Pete do nothing Hodgson. They would vote for a cabbage, if it was a red one.

[Bjauck]

What do you expect? Dunedin is full of dour Scottish pessimism... Yikes. In your books, what are Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland respectively full of?

[fungus pudding]

Yikes. In your books, what are Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland respectively full of?

Don't know. Suffice to say they would never have elected any of the above.

[westerly]

Don't know. Suffice to say they would never have elected any of the above.

How sad to be blue in Dunedin.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

How sad to be blue in Dunedin.

westerly

In the days of first past the post it was awful having to vote for candidates who were completely useless to give a tick to your preferred party. As a swinging voter in Dunedin it was fine when I favoured Labour's policies - but in the times when I preferred National's it was a strange feeling that my vote would not count for a thing.

[elZorro]

In the days of first past the post it was awful having to vote for candidates who were completely useless to give a tick to your preferred party. As a swinging voter in Dunedin it was fine when I favoured Labour's policies - but in the times when I preferred National's it was a strange feeling that my vote would not count for a thing.

Liam Dann thinks the election will be close. There was always mood for change in the electorate, it had been hidden.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11910008


I wonder how many people nationwide were galvanised into offering up their fences for Labour signs in the wake of Gareth Morgan's "lipstick on a pig" jibe? We got a few.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11911296

Duncan Garner doesn't look too hard at Stats NZ data from the years before 2008, but he's on the money with National's record.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96138164/duncan-garner-after-nine-years-in-power-why-is-nationals-report-card-so-full-of-fails

[iceman]

James Shaw got it completely wrong with his response to Turei's fraud. The Greens suffered severely. Now we have Winston admitting he was overpaid superannuation for many years. Watching him on both TV channels this morning doing his normal fight with the journalists and not answering anything they ask is silly. Why can't he just come out and clear the matter fully, including what amount he paid back ? I give him the benefit of the doubt that it was a simple mistake but why not just clarify it and get it from the headlines once and for all? Or is there something more sinister there ?

[winner69]

Suzy on RNZ asked Winnie whether he was being paid the single persons benefit when in a de facto relationship - no answer (apparently this all came to light when his partner recently applied for her pension)

And Winnie kept bringing up the IRD involvement .......weird that is ...hmmm

Winnie must go - another week another casualty

Some will say Nat will benefit if Winnie goes or NZF get less than 5% .......conspiracy theorists having a field day

[winner69]

Even more confusing than Winie made out on the radio

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96210587/cohabiting-peters-billed-18000


The electorate will make their own minds up

[iceman]

Yes winner reading these articles now, one has to suspect there is more to this story than Winnie lets on and the journos probably have all that info.

[fungus pudding]

Suzy on RNZ asked Winnie whether he was being paid the single persons benefit when in a de facto relationship - no answer (apparently this all came to light when his partner recently applied for her pension)

And Winnie kept bringing up the IRD involvement .......weird that is ...hmmm

Winnie must go - another week another casualty

Some will say Nat will benefit if Winnie goes or NZF get less than 5% .......conspiracy theorists having a field day

Surely he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Although the application process would be almost impossible to get wrong, especially for an articulate and clever person, why would he? From all accounts they are a wealthy couple and he drags in good money as a party leader MP. There would be too much to lose when found out. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, not that I have any desire to stick up for a plonker like Peters.

[iceman]

Surely he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Although the application process would be almost impossible to get wrong, especially for an articulate and clever person, why would he? From all accounts they are a wealthy couple and he drags in good money as a party leader MP. There would be too much to lose when found out. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, not that I have any desire to stick up for a plonker like Peters.

That's exactly how I feel about it too. It simply defies logic that Winston would do something like this purposely, but maybe, just maybe he has had his snout in the trough for too long and feels entitled to whatever he can get. That's why I just do not understand why he doesn't answer the questions and clears this matter up. Would take him all of 5 minutes if it is as he says. Until then, suspicions remain.

[Baa_Baa]

... That's why I just do not understand why he doesn't answer the questions and clears this matter up. Would take him all of 5 minutes if it is as he says. Until then, suspicions remain.

It's all oxygen in an election build-up, as long as Winston can keep this front-page news without committing suicide, he will. Watch him milk it for all it's worth, the longer the show goes on the more you can assume he's squeaky clean.

[Joshuatree]

Yes for winston , any publicity is good publicity ala trump.

[ari]

Winnie would have known, long before 7 years. He said on Tv no one was sure who made the error...well how come he then said, he paid back amount owed PLUS interest! Would that not suggest it was his faullt....

[iceman]

President Macron won with 66% of the vote in May, due to his young fresh approach and good looks, but with no real policies. As early as July a poll showed his star had fallen but still 54% were satisfied with him or at least giving him a chance to prove himself. A new poll out last week shows his approval rating has now fallen to 40% and a record 57% are dissatisfied with him. All talk and no substance. Similar stuff happening in Canada. Hopefully voters and Winston will not allow the same to happen in NZ !!

[fungus pudding]

President Macron won with 66% of the vote in May, due to his young fresh approach and good looks, but with no real policies. As early as July a poll showed his star had fallen but still 54% were satisfied with him or at least giving him a chance to prove himself. A new poll out last week shows his approval rating has now fallen to 40% and a record 57% are dissatisfied with him. All talk and no substance. Similar stuff happening in Canada. Hopefully voters and Winston will not allow the same to happen in NZ !!

Winston won't care about anything other than what he can extract for Winston.

[BlackPeter]

Winston won't care about anything other than what he can extract for Winston.

Didn't he say that he is not going for the baubles of office before he negotiated a nice post with great perks in the 2005 government? Our Winnie is so credible - isn't he?

[fungus pudding]

Didn't he say that he is not going for the baubles of office before he negotiated a nice post with great perks in the 2005 government? Our Winnie is so credible - isn't he?

Quite right. Baubles don't interest him in the slightest, cos he's said so. Taking 5 weeks to decide whether to support National or Labour was simply for the good of the country. Those nasty rumours that he was trying to get the role of P.M. were just nasty rumours - cos he said so.

[craic]

As a pensioner I can reasonably say that WP's statements on his own situation lack any credibility. When I applied for the pension at 65 my wife's part time work in a plant nursery and the share profits I made on the side were all taken into account and everything was adjusted accordingly. I had to fill in bits of paper all the time. I can't imagine how he, a qualified lawyer, did not know of his obligations or did not know of his responsibilities? Maybe he simply didn't know that he had a partner? Maybe he thought that she was just a MacKenzie friend?

[elZorro]

As a pensioner I can reasonably say that WP's statements on his own situation lack any credibility. When I applied for the pension at 65 my wife's part time work in a plant nursery and the share profits I made on the side were all taken into account and everything was adjusted accordingly. I had to fill in bits of paper all the time. I can't imagine how he, a qualified lawyer, did not know of his obligations or did not know of his responsibilities? Maybe he simply didn't know that he had a partner? Maybe he thought that she was just a MacKenzie friend?

Yes, it's a bit weird, Craic. At the moment the super is $60 more a week (tax code M) for a single person sharing a residence with someone else, rather than in a de facto relationship. For 390 weeks (7.5 years), that would add up to $23000 or so, close to the $18,000 being mentioned, taking into account a higher tax rate when he got back into parliament.

Small beer really, but MPs do have to be squeaky clean, don't they? The other person in the house seems to have thought it was a de facto relationship.

[fungus pudding]

Yes, it's a bit weird, Craic. At the moment the super is $60 more a week (tax code M) for a single person sharing a residence with someone else, rather than in a de facto relationship. For 390 weeks (7.5 years), that would add up to $23000 or so, close to the $18,000 being mentioned, taking into account a higher tax rate when he got back into parliament.

Small beer really, but MPs do have to be squeaky clean, don't they? The other person in the house seems to have thought it was a de facto relationship.

Peter's tax rate will be 33%. The difference is $73 net per week which on your figure of 390 weeks is $28470

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/map/deskfile/nz-superannuation-and-veterans-pension-tables/new-zealand-superannuation-and-veterans-pension-ra.html

[elZorro]

Peter's tax rate will be 33%. The difference is $73 net per week which on your figure of 390 weeks is $28470

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/map/deskfile/nz-superannuation-and-veterans-pension-tables/new-zealand-superannuation-and-veterans-pension-ra.html

Yes, it sounds like he was paid Super as though he was single, not sharing a home.

More to the point, this has leaked out, and it didn't need to. But MSD passed the private info to Anne Tolley's office under a "no surprises" policy, and from there it went to Wayne Eagleson. Within a couple of days, the press started to get wind of it.

Could Winston still do a deal with the National Party after all this? If votes bleed from NZ First, and they're "not National thanks" votes, will Labour end up with them?

https://thestandard.org.nz/nationals-political-hit-job-on-winston-peters/

[iceman]

Well done EZ. Put the blame on National for Winston over claiming a benefit for 7 YEARS. While I find it hard to believe he would be stupid enough to do this deliberately, I also find it hard to believe he did not notice this over a period of 7 years. He knows the rules and amounts probably better than anyone in the country I suspect, so how could this possibly escape him. His excuse is that like most other people he never looked at the amounts as they just went into his savings account. I wonder how many of his elderly supporters are in the same privileged position !

[fungus pudding]

Yes, it sounds like he was paid Super as though he was single, not sharing a home.

More to the point, this has leaked out, and it didn't need to. But MSD passed the private info to Anne Tolley's office under a "no surprises" policy, and from there it went to Wayne Eagleson. Within a couple of days, the press started to get wind of it.

Could Winston still do a deal with the National Party after all this? If votes bleed from NZ First, and they're "not National thanks" votes, will Labour end up with them?



(1) No he couldn't, or wouldn't.
(2) Yes they will.

[fungus pudding]

Well done EZ. Put the blame on National for Winston over claiming a benefit for 7 YEARS. While I find it hard to believe he would be stupid enough to do this deliberately, I also find it hard to believe he did not notice this over a period of 7 years. He knows the rules and amounts probably better than anyone in the country I suspect, so how could this possibly escape him. His excuse is that like most other people he never looked at the amounts as they just went into his savings account. I wonder how many of his elderly supporters are in the same privileged position !

Yes. It's all a bit weird. He's not that silly - but if claiming the single living alone rate he almost certainly will have received a letter every year checking his single alone status had not changed.

[ari]

Yes. It's all a bit weird. He's not that silly - but if claiming the single living alone rate he almost certainly will have received a letter every year checking his single alone status had not changed.

Exactly....I have been receiving Super for approx 3.5 years and during that time I have been into Govt site to check my rate at least 4 or 5 times....and Winnie never did. Even though it appeared on his statement every fortnight and never had an inkling to check, don't think so.....even in his own words, he has no confidence in MSD!

[elZorro]

Labour's new tertiary education policy, good use of some of the budget surplus I think.

http://www.labour.org.nz/tertiaryeducation

Regarding the WP overpayment, it seems that


The State Services Commission (also) briefed State Services Minister Paula Bennett.

More details. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11913099)

Barry Soper with some telling comments on the Winston Peters leak. Doesn't make the National ministers look too good. He makes the comment that this little dirty politics operation could spell the end for the National Government, and I think so too. Winston's not going their way in September.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11913450

[iceman]

Labour's new tertiary education policy, good use of some of the budget surplus I think.

http://www.labour.org.nz/tertiaryeducation

Regarding the WP overpayment, it seems that



More details. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11913099)

Barry Soper with some telling comments on the Winston Peters leak. Doesn't make the National ministers look too good. He makes the comment that this little dirty politics operation could spell the end for the National Government, and I think so too. Winston's not going their way in September.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11913450

So all OK for Winston to overclaim his entitlements for 7 years while living with a millionaire defacto partner in the dress circle in Auckland ? Why does he simply not explain how this happened over 7 years as it should have been impossible as can be seen by Ari's post above. It all points to it being intentional on his behalf, something I find extremely hard to believe. But he has been known to blatantly lie before, Owen Glenn saga for example. There he tried to smear a person by blatantly lying in a press conference. Sounds familiar ?

[fungus pudding]

So all OK for Winston to overclaim his entitlements for 7 years while living with a millionaire defacto partner in the dress circle in Auckland ? Why does he simply not explain how this happened over 7 years .......................

Because he's Winston. Trademark behaviour - never ever give a straight answer to anything. He might pay a price for his carry on this time.

[ari]

So all OK for Winston to overclaim his entitlements for 7 years while living with a millionaire defacto partner in the dress circle in Auckland ? Why does he simply not explain how this happened over 7 years as it should have been impossible as can be seen by Ari's post above. It all points to it being intentional on his behalf, something I find extremely hard to believe. But he has been known to blatantly lie before, Owen Glenn saga for example. There he tried to smear a person by blatantly lying in a press conference. Sounds familiar ?

Winnie tactic.....when caught out...... attack! Now saying bring in the lawyers on 3 fronts, find where leak came from. Why not just go back to all evidence, paperwork, personel etc to do with Winnie's application for Super.......

[Joshuatree]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/n...ectid=11913450 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11913450)

"So politically it has the real potential of calling time for National and it also raises serious questions about the politicisation of the public service."
"No Surprises" being used politically. Corrupt.

[fungus pudding]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/n...ectid=11913450 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11913450)

"So politically it has the real potential of calling time for National and it also raises serious questions about the politicisation of the public service."
"No Surprises" being used politically. Corrupt.

It would be bretter if it called time on Winston and his party of muffled clone Winstons. I know you'll agree.

[Joshuatree]

Bill" i know nothing" English is coming out with less credibility then Winston.Their "no surprises" tactic outing Winston is back firing, reducing Bills credibility more.
""Remember the fat Sergeant Shultz in that television hit series Hogan's Heros who had a three word script to remember?
"I know nothing" he would repeat as he was fed compromising information from the Americans he was guarding in a POW camp."

[dobby41]

Bill" i know nothing" English is coming out with less credibility then Winston.Their "no surprises" tactic outing Winston is back firing, reducing Bills credibility more.
""Remember the fat Sergeant Shultz in that television hit series Hogan's Heros who had a three word script to remember?
"I know nothing" he would repeat as he was fed compromising information from the Americans he was guarding in a POW camp."

The 'I know nothing' worked well for Shonkey - Bill just can't carry it off as well as he did.

[iceman]

There was absolutely no gain for National to leak this information and much risk. It is much more likely that a Green Party supporter or a Labour supporter working in the public service (as most of them do) leaked this, a payback for Turei. But it is besides the point how it got in the public arena. The serious question is WHY did Winston be overpaid for 7 years ? I can just imagine the howling from JT, dobby41, westerly and EZ if this had been Don Brash or someone like that claiming benefits he wasn't entitled to.

[fungus pudding]

There was absolutely no gain for National to leak this information and much risk. It is much more likely that a Green Party supporter or a Labour supporter working in the public service (as most of them do) leaked this, a payback for Turei. But it is besides the point how it got in the public arena. The serious question is WHY did Winston be overpaid for 7 years ? I can just imagine the howling from JT, dobby41, westerly and EZ if this had been Don Brash or someone like that claiming benefits he wasn't entitled to.

That's a list of this forum's leading cherry-pickers.

[Joshuatree]

Ive no idea about Winstons overpayment; no evidence either way atp. But there is a trail "But it's as though the leading lights in National have taken a leaf out of the deliberately ignorant German sergeant's book.Bill English knew nothing when it came to Peters paying back money he'd been mistakenly paid by the Social Development Ministry, which tipped off their Minister Anne Tolley, who maintains she didn't tell him anything and Paula Bennett's State Services Ministry told her about the payback but she also claims she zipped it too.

The only other person told about it was English's chief of staff who we're told also remained shtum.

Knowing how the Beehive operates and knowing what a cesspit of gossip it is, particularly when Winston Peters has a bullseye on his back, that's beyond comprehension."

[dobby41]

There was absolutely no gain for National to leak this information and much risk. It is much more likely that a Green Party supporter or a Labour supporter working in the public service (as most of them do) leaked this, a payback for Turei. But it is besides the point how it got in the public arena. The serious question is WHY did Winston be overpaid for 7 years ? I can just imagine the howling from JT, dobby41, westerly and EZ if this had been Don Brash or someone like that claiming benefits he wasn't entitled to.

Me?
I don't know the full story but what I have read so far beggars belief.
I don't agree with anyone rorting the system - National, Labour, NZ First or anyone!
Not sure where you get the idea from that I am a blind Labourite.
I find the problem with politics is that I like some bits of all the parties and dislike a lot of bits from them all also (Labour included).
I am not a Labour apologist.

[Joshuatree]

Fungus are you a selective speed reader. Its national who have picked all the easy fruit over 9 years and left all the much harder to fix problems(fruit to pick with dosh certified ladders) to labour to slowly clean up.

[dobby41]

Fungus are you a selective speed reader. Its national who have picked all the easy fruit over 9 years and left all the much harder to fix problems(fruit to pick with dosh certified ladders) to labour to slowly clean up.

And that's the biggest disappointment I have with National.
It is often politically difficult to get done what you want to do but the GFC would have been an opportune time to be able to make some structural changes in the economy.
Unfortunately National didn't build on the opportunity they had.

[Joshuatree]

Yes nine years:eek2:! And now they are throwing out laced carrots all over the place accusing labour of being fiscally irresponsible. Credibility gone .

[fungus pudding]

Yes nine years:eek2:! And now they are throwing out laced carrots all over the place accusing labour of being fiscally irresponsible. Credibility gone .

Not to most people. I doubt that you ever considered them credible. Some people have blinkered vision.

[Joshuatree]

Blinkered alright NINE LONG YEARS:eek2:. They've had their chances far too long.National Over and Out.

[777]

And in 9 years Labour have done what? How many leader changes? How much time did they do on taxation reform on the basis of their current decision to now look at it?

9 wasted years. As FP states "blinkered vision". They were useless in opposition and they think they will be great as a government.

[dobby41]

And in 9 years Labour have done what? How many leader changes? How much time did they do on taxation reform on the basis of their current decision to now look at it?

9 wasted years. As FP states "blinkered vision". They were useless in opposition and they think they will be great as a government.

Labour seemed fine when they were in power last time.
Got debt down.
Left the country in a good shape for National.
I'm really not sure what their history in opposition and the leadership changes have to do with things really.
Again - this isn't a support email for Labour - just trying to provide a bit of balance here.

[iceman]

Labour seemed fine when they were in power last time.
Got debt down.
Left the country in a good shape for National.
I'm really not sure what their history in opposition and the leadership changes have to do with things really.
Again - this isn't a support email for Labour - just trying to provide a bit of balance here.

It has a lot to do with it. After 9 wasted years in Opposition where they've done nothing other than change Leaders and policies, they are now being outed with uncosted and unfinished policies but big empty promises. No comparison to the Clark/Cullen era when they had a lot of experience in their ranks

[Joshuatree]

Trying to reverse my 9 long years of national fiddling ehhh. NO CHANCE. National have to go we need a new broom and real social policies , housing ,health, environmental etc etc. Fiddling, bandaids have come right off exposing the weeping sore national have created.

At least be original Iceman!

Significant gaps esp with social housing, serious underfunding by national creating 3rd world probs in NZ!
The new norm , no thanks!

[iceman]

Do you travel much overseas JT ?

[Joshuatree]

Have you got Bronchiectasis Iceman?.I hope not

"Byrnes says not just the number but the severity of cases are getting worse. Rates of bronchiectasis, an irreversible, life-threatening lung disease caused by repeated chest infections, have tripled in just 15 years.
"It's a Third World disease, the kind of thing that if you were going to see it, the patients would be in their eighties. Now we are diagnosing it younger and younger," Byrnes said.
"Internationally people are astonished at the numbers we have here. It's completely terrifying."

[dobby41]

Do you travel much overseas JT ?

I do.
Recently travelled to Greece. Saw 3 beggars in 3 weeks.
Went to Auckland the other day - saw 3 beggars in one day.
I thought Greece was supposed to be a basket case?

[iceman]

I do.
Recently travelled to Greece. Saw 3 beggars in 3 weeks.
Went to Auckland the other day - saw 3 beggars in one day.
I thought Greece was supposed to be a basket case?

Based on that, we can now all agree with JT that NZ is a basket case

[Joshuatree]

I suggest you hug and agree with yourself only:t_up:.

[craic]

I do.
Recently travelled to Greece. Saw 3 beggars in 3 weeks.
Went to Auckland the other day - saw 3 beggars in one day.
I thought Greece was supposed to be a basket case?

They are a basket case - so clapped out that they can only support three beggars. Recent travels. Melbourne - a beggar on every main street. Singapore - not one in sight - they are taken off the street with the rest of the garbage, housed and given a job. Bali, they all sell something there. Napier? We have one or two - their principal spokesman is a member of a good family with a home to go to but he has been twisted for years and prefers to be an infamous layabout.

[777]

Heard on the radio recently someone who deals with these street people and he said there were 147 in Auckland. Most live there by choice and many have mental issues.

I am sure a lot of beggars seen have homes to go to and get a benefit but elect to supplement their income by begging and do quite well out of it.

[dobby41]

They are a basket case - so clapped out that they can only support three beggars. Recent travels. Melbourne - a beggar on every main street. Singapore - not one in sight - they are taken off the street with the rest of the garbage, housed and given a job. Bali, they all sell something there. Napier? We have one or two - their principal spokesman is a member of a good family with a home to go to but he has been twisted for years and prefers to be an infamous layabout.

I was surprised on a recent visit to Melbourne to see how many there were so openly sleeping on the street, in the middle of the day.
It has increased significantly in the last year or two.

[fungus pudding]

I do.
Recently travelled to Greece. Saw 3 beggars in 3 weeks.
Went to Auckland the other day - saw 3 beggars in one day.
I thought Greece was supposed to be a basket case?

Just shows - don't beg in poor places - better pickings in Auckland.

[Joshuatree]

Try it out Fungus; you may get the sub of the day.

[dobby41]

Just shows - don't beg in poor places - better pickings in Auckland.

Fair cop - like your style :t_up:

[Bjauck]

What housing crisis?

"More New Zealand children are killed by diseases linked to cold, damp, and overcrowded housing than in car crashes or drownings."
Childhood diseases in the land of milk and poverty
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11913334



Have you got Bronchiectasis Iceman?.I hope not

"Byrnes says not just the number but the severity of cases are getting worse. Rates of bronchiectasis, an irreversible, life-threatening lung disease caused by repeated chest infections, have tripled in just 15 years.
"It's a Third World disease, the kind of thing that if you were going to see it, the patients would be in their eighties. Now we are diagnosing it younger and younger," Byrnes said.
"Internationally people are astonished at the numbers we have here. It's completely terrifying."

[BlackPeter]

I do.
Recently travelled to Greece. Saw 3 beggars in 3 weeks.
Went to Auckland the other day - saw 3 beggars in one day.
I thought Greece was supposed to be a basket case?

Begging is a hard nosed business. Beggars only go where they can make a good coin. Have a stroll through Munich, Berlin, Paris, Rome or London and you can find 3 beggars in 10 minutes (if you are slow, this is). The more beggars you see the richer the town you are visiting - and yes, they are often imported ...

[artemis]

What housing crisis?

"More New Zealand children are killed by diseases linked to cold, damp, and overcrowded housing than in car crashes or drownings."
[B]Childhood diseases in the land of milk and poverty

Maybe there should be free doctor visits for children. And Accommodation Supplements. And insulation.

But how to deal with this situation in the article, bearing in mind it is a new house and therefore has insulation. And windows. Though maybe not Janola and cleaning cloths:

Upstairs, mould grows on the windowsills. Despite being a new house, it has no ventilation system.

[fungus pudding]

Begging is a hard nosed business. Beggars only go where they can make a good coin. Have a stroll through Munich, Berlin, Paris, Rome or London and you can find 3 beggars in 10 minutes (if you are slow, this is). The more beggars you see the richer the town you are visiting - and yes, they are often imported ...

I was in San Francisco recently wandering past rows of beggars. All the signs were very similar - out of work, kids to feed, etc. etc. Then I came across one whose sign read 'I cannot tell a lie. - I need beer.' He was a hard case so I gave him a couple of dollars.

[iceman]

Maybe there should be free doctor visits for children. And Accommodation Supplements. And insulation.

But how to deal with this situation in the article, bearing in mind it is a new house and therefore has insulation. And windows. Though maybe not Janola and cleaning cloths:

Upstairs, mould grows on the windowsills. Despite being a new house, it has no ventilation system.

Good post artemis. I don' t know how to deal with a situation like this but its sad to see this as it is unnecessary, but of course it is easiest just to blame the Government

[Bjauck]

Maybe there should be free doctor visits for children. And Accommodation Supplements. And insulation.

But how to deal with this situation in the article, bearing in mind it is a new house and therefore has insulation. And windows. Though maybe not Janola and cleaning cloths:

Upstairs, mould grows on the windowsills. Despite being a new house, it has no ventilation system.

Perhaps they do not have enough money to afford heating (because it all goes on the luxuries like high rent costs and food?) and perhaps they have an overcrowded house because they cannot afford a bigger place in Auckland's crowded housing market!

Here is a clue: "We have a good landlord but we're looking to move. It's pretty cold without the heater, it's freezing." So maybe the mould grows as fast as it can be cleaned away and open windows for ventilation suck out any heat there is...


But where would they move to? An even smaller place so that they can afford heating for other times, other than just when their child is ill with pneumonia?

[iceman]

Perhaps they do not have enough money to afford heating (because it all goes on the luxuries like high rent costs and food?) and perhaps they have an overcrowded house because they cannot afford a bigger place in Auckland's crowded housing market!

Here is a clue: "We have a good landlord but we're looking to move. It's pretty cold without the heater, it's freezing."

But where would they move too? An even smaller place so that they can afford heating for other times other than just when their child is ill with pneumonia?

Another one said the heater was broken so they used the oven. Go figure

[BlackPeter]

Maybe there should be free doctor visits for children. And Accommodation Supplements. And insulation.

But how to deal with this situation in the article, bearing in mind it is a new house and therefore has insulation. And windows. Though maybe not Janola and cleaning cloths:

Upstairs, mould grows on the windowsills. Despite being a new house, it has no ventilation system.

Agreed. One problem is that many New Zealanders don't realise that any occupied house (and particularly new ones which have better closing windows) needs proper heating and regular fresh air (i.e. open the windows, particularly on cold winter mornings). Humans produce lots of moisture and if we don't allow this moisture to escape mould will grow.

What we probably need is schools stopping to teach all this internet nonsense but go back to the basics: How to keep a house warm and dry. How to properly clean (many young people don't know how to properly use a broom or a brush and a cloth) - and while we are at the subject - how to properly cook. We live in an upmarket area - but many of our neighbours only know how to warm up precooked frozen meals form the supermarket - terrible.

The sad thing is - most of our teachers wouldn't know how to properly look after a house, how to properly clean and how to properly cook either. Too many lost generations?

[Bjauck]

Agreed. One problem is that many New Zealanders don't realise that any occupied house (and particularly new ones which have better closing windows) needs proper heating and regular fresh air (i.e. open the windows, particularly on cold winter mornings). Humans produce lots of moisture and if we don't allow this moisture to escape mould will grow.... We don't know the full story with this case. They may open the windows for ventillation but cannot afford heating so the mould still grows. If the house is overcrowded maybe it is a balancing act between windows open sufficiently for ventillation and losing whatever heat they can afford.

They say they get on well with the LL, so maybe the Landlord has already explained ways to keep the house properly ventillated?

[artemis]

If the property is dry and aired then mould will be minimised. So what causes moisture in the air? Pretty much the way occupants live - showers, cooking, drying clothes inside, unflued gas heaters, overcrowding, wipe down condensation (warm moist air inside meets cold from outside). And clean mould as soon as it appears. It's not rocket surgery.

Windows don't have to be open all day to air out a property. An hour a day is a good start.

So maybe we don't know the full story in this particular case but very likely the occupants are a good part of the cause of damp and mould in a new house. And if because of that their children get sick ....

[jmsnz]

If the property is dry and aired then mould will be minimised. So what causes moisture in the air? Pretty much the way occupants live - showers, cooking, drying clothes inside, unflued gas heaters, overcrowding, wipe down condensation (warm moist air inside meets cold from outside). And clean mould as soon as it appears. It's not rocket surgery.

Windows don't have to be open all day to air out a property. An hour a day is a good start.

So maybe we don't know the full story in this particular case but very likely the occupants are a good part of the cause of damp and mould in a new house. And if because of that their children get sick ....
No, you would have to assume that it is the landlords fault. Anyway, doesn't matter because the Labour led government we are about to elect will fix all of these issues.

Seriously though, it is pretty sad reading. Bottom line is those least equipped to understand what is going on and how to minimise the risks and impacts are of course the ones most impacted. For many in that article I am not sure that any amount of government policy would help really. Reading some of that, I am reminded of my grandfather who lived in an old villa without insulation and built in the wrong orientation to the sun, and would tell me: 'There is no such thing as being cold, you have just made inappropriate clothing choices'.

[Bjauck]

No, you would have to assume that it is the landlords fault. Anyway, doesn't matter because the Labour led government we are about to elect will fix all of these issues. If past performance is a guide, I doubt it. Both major parties having helped give birth to the "third world" conditions as outlined in that article that now exist in some parts of NZ.


Seriously though, it is pretty sad reading. Bottom line is those least equipped to understand what is going on and how to minimise the risks and impacts are of course the ones most impacted. All the more reason to help them? However too true, although do we know that is the case with those in this article. Auckland's housing crisis is creeping up the social spectrum with (for example) "middle class" teachers finding it difficult to raise deposits to buy their own homes, and competing with others in the rental market.
.

For many in that article I am not sure that any amount of government policy would help really.Quite an assumption. Is that an excuse for doing nothing?


Reading some of that, I am reminded of my grandfather who lived in an old villa without insulation and built in the wrong orientation to the sun, and would tell me: 'There is no such thing as being cold, you have just made inappropriate clothing choices'. They did make them tough in decades past. My granny would have tales of her childhood in the depression and the war. I think she was glad that times changed. Did your grandfather have an overcrowded house? How did you grandfather cope with infants living in his house. Did they get sick all the time? Infant mortality used to be a great problem (still is for some?)

[Bjauck]

....
Windows don't have to be open all day to air out a property. An hour a day is a good start.

So maybe we don't know the full story in this particular case but very likely the occupants are a good part of the cause of damp and mould in a new house. And if because of that their children get sick .... True. if you have got six people having showers and breathing in a house it needs much more ventillating than if you have just one. Kids are much less likely to breath in damp cold air if in an uncrowded household.

[artemis]

In the 21st century it is a choice to have a large family. No issue at all for many large families. But for some it is - 6 children, low wages, can't find a landlord to rent to them. They made choices. There are consequences.

Probably the state will step in eventually and offer cheap, insulated housing. So are there consequences?

[Bjauck]

In the 21st century it is a choice to have a large family. No issue at all for many large families. But for some it is - 6 children, low wages, can't find a landlord to rent to them. They made choices. There are consequences.So the kids need to suffer because their parents did not stop procreating? Don't we need young people to help the ageing baby boomers. Provide these chldren with good healthy conditions and free education then they can be good English speaking helpers for the old boomers later on!

Probably the state will step in eventually and offer cheap, insulated housing. So are there consequences? Really? - it doesnt look likely.

[artemis]

So the kids need to suffer because their parents did not stop procreating? Don't we need young people to help the ageing baby boomers. Provide these chldren with good healthy conditions and free education then they can be good English speaking helpers for the old boomers later on!
Really? - it doesnt look likely.


It is extremely likely that that family will be offered social housing with 4 bedrooms. They will be high priority based on emergency housing situation, health issues and low income. Not to mention media attention. That is how the system works. (I worked in that system for years.)

[elZorro]

There was absolutely no gain for National to leak this information and much risk. It is much more likely that a Green Party supporter or a Labour supporter working in the public service (as most of them do) leaked this, a payback for Turei. But it is besides the point how it got in the public arena. The serious question is WHY did Winston be overpaid for 7 years ? I can just imagine the howling from JT, dobby41, westerly and EZ if this had been Don Brash or someone like that claiming benefits he wasn't entitled to.

Oh dear, Paula Bennett doesn't look too chipper at the moment - got a bit of a grilling from Jack Tame.

Whoever leaked the information knew the unlisted cellphone number of a reporter, not something many of us would know, and not many public servants would know either. So if it wasn't the ministry, but at least three National Party people knew about it, and all three would have those contacts at their fingertips, who was it?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/full-interview-its-not-something-we-would-do-paula-bennett-dismisses-claims-national-leaked-winston-peters-pension-info

Oh, and Paula, serendipitous is a bit too big a word for you. Try lucky coincidence.

[jonu]

Oh dear, Paula Bennett doesn't look too chipper at the moment - got a bit of a grilling from Jack Tame.

Whoever leaked the information knew the unlisted cellphone number of a reporter, not something many of us would know, and not many public servants would know either. So if it wasn't the ministry, but at least three National Party people knew about it, and all three would have those contacts at their fingertips, who was it?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/full-interview-its-not-something-we-would-do-paula-bennett-dismisses-claims-national-leaked-winston-peters-pension-info

Oh, and Paula, serendipitous is a bit too big a word for you. Try lucky coincidence.

We don't know who it was and neither do you El Z.

Funny how upset Winston gets when the leak is about him. Who leaked Bill English's private texts to Winston? The wily old coot certainly knows how to deflect attention and make the issue about the leaker rather than the material.

[Rep]

Coming late to the party but here goes.

Part of the issue of housing is what our vision of what a house is. If you ask most people in New Zealand to describe a house, it's a standalone building with internal space of 200 sq metres on a piece of land - usually built as a one-off.

The majority of people who here live in urban areas - we have one of the more urbanised populations other than a couple of city states.

For most of our history, that's been relatively sustainable but has created urban sprawl and vast tracts of suburbia in Auckland and other larger urban centres. For the most part, a good proportion of greater Auckland is no more dense in housing units than say Tauranga, Dunedin or New Plymouth.

Auckland has either reached or is reaching the limits of that urban form given the economy that we have. The population of Auckland urban area is getting to a million people and its forecasted to pick up more of the growth in the population in the next 30 years. That's because there is strong internal
migration to Auckland, a lot of migrants settle in Auckland and a lot of returning kiwis who spent time living in larger cities overseas on their OE settle back in Auckland rather than return to the provinces. Also emigration overseas from Auckland had slowed markedly over the past few years particularly heading to Australia.

Now remember I mentioned density of housing units is similar to a lot of other places, the average house in Auckland has a higher number of occupants - nearly 1 more person than most in rest of NZ.

Opening up more tracts of land for housing is one idea. Changing the urban form with medium to high density housing units is another. But that's a major paradigm shift for most kiwis who don't envisage medium density terrace houses and apartments as homes and certainly not without a piece of land. And everywhere else in the country, that model of housing is completely foreign.

So if we are going to house 1.3 million people in Auckland then we will have to change that vision for housing because it isn't sustainable - at least for a lot of people. And a lot of the current housing stock will have to change if individuals and families want to live in Auckland and be able to move freely and have a quality of life that they desire.

The question is then if we want a family bringing in $50k a year and want to have the cost of housing at say a multiplier of 5 - it isn't realistic for a 200 sq metre standalone house to be $250k in Auckland or for a lot of urban areas. So then you go back to what that home might look like - might have to be smaller and not standalone - might be a terrace or an apartment. You can build warm, dry small form housing that might look similar if not identical in form and fit out to its neighbours.

But tenants and homeowners will have to accept that that form is what an Auckland home will be for a good part of the population.

[minimoke]

The question is then if we want a family bringing in $50k a year
The first question is: is $50,000 income enough to start having a family?

[Rep]

The first question is: is $50,000 income enough to start having a family?
Maybe. But what's the alternative? Should society presume that we set a minimum income for having a family?

[777]

I went to an open home(apartment) in an Albany last weekend out of interest. It was in the industrial area. Two bedrooms, one bathroom, lounge-dining room with the kitchen included and a study type area. All on one floor but below was a large garage with laundry and extra toilet. Nothing upmarket in design nor colour schemes. In fact it was horrid. Asking price $945,000 + GST. Nearly 1.1 million for crap. So what is $250,000 going to buy?

[dobby41]

Maybe. But what's the alternative? Should society presume that we set a minimum income for having a family?

Society shouldn't but people should be able to work out consequences of actions themselves.
And don't come running to 'society' if your choice doesn't work out well. Take some responsibility for your actions.

[dobby41]

Another one said the heater was broken so they used the oven. Go figure

Ovens turn energy into heat the same as a heater.
1kw is the same in a normal incandesant heater as in an oven.

[iceman]

Ovens turn energy into heat the same as a heater.
1kw is the same in a normal incandesant heater as in an oven.

And everyone goes and sits around in the kitchen. Maybe this is quite normal but I have never seen this method of heating used and wouldn't consider it myself.

Like your post about density of housing Rep. I have recently returned from a northern European country where there is a lot of building going on but most residential accommodation is being built in apartment blocks, with high quality and nice apartments. Nothing flash but good and fairly private. Young families simply don't entertain the thought of anything else for their first homes Visited a friend in his mid fifties that has recently sold his house and bought a nice apartment, after kids have all moved on. Reason he gave was a lot less maintenance work on gardens and buildings , much cheaper to run and quite a bit of money left over from changing from a house to an apartment. NZ needs an attitude change in this regards and it will come. The sooner the better.

[dobby41]

So what is $250,000 going to buy?

Nothing - the dirt under costs more than that - way more.

[Joshuatree]

I agree and its happening , maybe not fast enough. Record 1216 apartments built

Record Auckland CBD apartments rising - NZ Herald (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwiQ7fnr4__VAhUJoZQKHUM6AOsQFghcMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nzherald.co.nz%2Fbusiness%2Fn ews%2Farticle.cfm%3Fc_id%3D3%26objectid%3D11891669&usg=AFQjCNGDAVDW5b0BujuXMHMUPQKLCxIMmQ)

[iceman]

I agree and its happening , maybe not fast enough. Record 1216 apartments built

Record Auckland CBD apartments rising - NZ Herald (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwiQ7fnr4__VAhUJoZQKHUM6AOsQFghcMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nzherald.co.nz%2Fbusiness%2Fn ews%2Farticle.cfm%3Fc_id%3D3%26objectid%3D11891669&usg=AFQjCNGDAVDW5b0BujuXMHMUPQKLCxIMmQ)

A good sign JT but it needs to happen much faster and right around the country's towns and cities. Here in Nelson most of the very few apartments built are expensive waterfront apartments. Not at all aimed at first home buyers that are really struggling to get a first home to buy or rent. Yes its not just an Auckland problem despite what one may hear from media and politicians.

[BlackPeter]

...

So maybe we don't know the full story in this particular case but very likely the occupants are a good part of the cause of damp and mould in a new house. And if because of that their children get sick ....

.. than obviously it must be the fault of the government. Why don't they pass by every morning to properly air the house and throw money into the heaters. Minimum we should expect from nanny state - shouldn't we?

[fungus pudding]

A good sign JT but it needs to happen much faster and right around the country's towns and cities. Here in Nelson most of the very few apartments built are expensive waterfront apartments. Not at all aimed at first home buyers that are really struggling to get a first home to buy or rent. Yes its not just an Auckland problem despite what one may hear from media and politicians.

Does it matter that new builds are expensive? Surely each new dwelling frees up an older cheaper one for first home and lower income buyers. It's asking a lot to provide brand new homes for low equity people, unless we want a whole lot of shoddy dogboxes. We do not need to start at the top.

[dobby41]

.. than obviously it must be the fault of the government. Why don't they pass by every morning to properly air the house and throw money into the heaters. Minimum we should expect from nanny state - shouldn't we?

Might be cheaper than what we pay in hospital bills etc?

May not be the fault of the government but they could show some leadership and address the issue.
They have been saying for a long time that there isn't an issue.
Acceptance that there is an issue is the 1st step in addressing it.

[Joshuatree]

We don't know all the facts but modern house building techniques and materials make houses pretty airtight; they don't breathe like older ones. Keeps vermin and cockroaches out but a little education re opening a few windows for 30 min a day when its not hosing down may possibly help in this situ with the mould and dampness situ.

[iceman]

Does it matter that new builds are expensive? Surely each new dwelling frees up an older cheaper one for first home and lower income buyers. It's asking a lot to provide brand new homes for low equity people, unless we want a whole lot of shoddy dogboxes. We do not need to start at the top.

They do it in many countries in Europe, provide new and reasonably affordable apartments to young families, not all low income earners. The use of land is much more efficient and economical and I think we need the same in many parts of NZ, i.e. use the inner city and suburban land much more efficiently. I am not advocating apartments only but they need to be a significant part of the mix.

I might add it is also much more common to rent than buy, people (tenants) are content with it and the culture and respect between tenant and landlord is far superior to what we have here in NZ. At least that is my experience.

[blackcap]

I might add it is also much more common to rent than buy, people (tenants) are content with it and the culture and respect between tenant and landlord is far superior to what we have here in NZ. At least that is my experience.

Agree, in Holland the tenants even go as far as putting in new curtains, laying a new floor, painting the interior etc. No probs.

[dobby41]

Agree, in Holland the tenants even go as far as putting in new curtains, laying a new floor, painting the interior etc. No probs.

I bet they have a contract that says they have to be given much more than 90 days notice too.
I bet they security of tenure.
You have to look at the whole system to understand this.

[Bjauck]

And everyone goes and sits around in the kitchen. Maybe this is quite normal but I have never seen this method of heating used and wouldn't consider it myself.

Like your post about density of housing Rep. I have recently returned from a northern European country where there is a lot of building going on but most residential accommodation is being built in apartment blocks, with high quality and nice apartments. Nothing flash but good and fairly private. Young families simply don't entertain the thought of anything else for their first homes Visited a friend in his mid fifties that has recently sold his house and bought a nice apartment, after kids have all moved on. Reason he gave was a lot less maintenance work on gardens and buildings , much cheaper to run and quite a bit of money left over from changing from a house to an apartment. NZ needs an attitude change in this regards and it will come. The sooner the better.

Apartments are ideal for singles or busy childless couples.

With current prices, many foirst home buyers could not even afford the deposit on a several years old Auckland sardine can apartment. Even if they could, they would have to compete with the line of investors and overseas foreign buyers. Household investment in NZ has been channelled into pushing up the price of land.

A common Auckland scenario today is often with Granny alone in her stand alone villa with a garden, whilst families struggle to get a deposit for a tiny yardless flat.

[blackcap]

I bet they have a contract that says they have to be given much more than 90 days notice too.
I bet they security of tenure.
You have to look at the whole system to understand this.

They do, some have 10 year tenancies etc. Very common over there. It means that a rented home can still be a "family home". Works well and means the population has to move around a lot less often... gains all round.

[Bjauck]

We don't know all the facts but modern house building techniques and materials make houses pretty airtight; they don't breathe like older ones. Keeps vermin and cockroaches out but a little education re opening a few windows for 30 min a day when its not hosing down may possibly help in this situ with the mould and dampness situ. Definitely true, but how do we know that they did not do that in the Herald story. If the house is overcrowded (because of the cost of accommodation) and unheated, the windows may need to be opened for much longer, thereby sucking out what ever little heat they could afford.

So it may still come down to the fact that too much was expected of the accommodation....Auckland just cannot provide sufficient appropriate accommodation for the increasing numbers of people trying to make Auckland their home.

[Rep]

We don't know all the facts but modern house building techniques and materials make houses pretty airtight; they don't breathe like older ones. Keeps vermin and cockroaches out but a little education re opening a few windows for 30 min a day when its not hosing down may possibly help in this situ with the mould and dampness situ.

I live in a modern and airtight home - I regularly don't open any of the windows for days if not weeks. You can build air tight homes that don't need windows to be opened if you address the ventilation issues with good design.

At the time of construction about 11 years ago, I did quite a lot of research and decided to install a balanced pressure heat recovery ventilation system into the house. It wasn't cheap but it's significantly better in performance than a positive pressure ventilation system. It was designed and installed to displace a minimum of around 0.3 of the internal volume EVERY HOUR so effectively there's a complete air change every 3 hours and effectively 8 complete fresh air changes a day. The stainless steel cross flow heat exchanger up in the roofspace uses the scavenged warm moist air in the house to warm the filtered incoming fresh air charge which effectively controls the humidity.

It has a power consumption of about 150-200 watts but the humidity in the house sits around 40 to 60% and the internal space is warmed with heat pumps and there is passive solar heating using some design features e.g. tiles on an insulated slab next to large ranchsliders and a thermostat controlled port on the ventilation system to run air from the roofspace if the temperature > 20 degrees via the exhaust side of the ventilation system to use warm roofspace air to provide additional heat to the fresh air charge.

It does require looking at details - our interior lights are LED units that don't port air up to a cavity or roofspace (incandescent lighting often does to get rid of excess heat) and looking at placement of the exhaust and intake ports (e.g. I have a scavenging exhaust port hidden behind the fridge in the kitchen).

BUT most homeowners don't know or place value on features like these that actually make homes liveable, dry, warm and well ventilated especially when they cost as much as a bathroom.

[fungus pudding]

I live in a modern and airtight home - I regularly don't open any of the windows for days if not weeks. You can build air tight homes that don't need windows to be opened if you address the ventilation issues with good design.

At the time of construction about 11 years ago, I did quite a lot of research and decided to install a balanced pressure heat recovery ventilation system into the house. It wasn't cheap but it's significantly better in performance than a positive pressure ventilation system. It was designed and installed to displace a minimum of around 0.3 of the internal volume EVERY HOUR so effectively there's a complete air change every 3 hours and effectively 8 complete fresh air changes a day. The stainless steel cross flow heat exchanger up in the roofspace uses the scavenged warm moist air in the house to warm the filtered incoming fresh air charge which effectively controls the humidity.

It has a power consumption of about 150-200 watts but the humidity in the house sits around 40 to 60% and the internal space is warmed with heat pumps and there is passive solar heating using some design features e.g. tiles on an insulated slab next to large ranchsliders and a thermostat controlled port on the ventilation system to run air from the roofspace if the temperature > 20 degrees via the exhaust side of the ventilation system to use warm roofspace air to provide additional heat to the fresh air charge.

It does require looking at details - our interior lights are LED units that don't port air up to a cavity or roofspace (incandescent lighting often does to get rid of excess heat) and looking at placement of the exhaust and intake ports (e.g. I have a scavenging exhaust port hidden behind the fridge in the kitchen).

BUT most homeowners don't know or place value on features like these that actually make homes liveable, dry, warm and well ventilated especially when they cost as much as a bathroom.


Interersting. I am building a new home shortly, after years in an older home with a very successful positive pressure vent system - but I can't for the life of me understand how they can be expected to work in a new near enough to air tight home.
What brand of balanced system did you install? Does the heat exchanger seem efficient, and of course - cost? Grateful for any info.

[BlackPeter]

Apartments are ideal for singles or busy childless couples.


A typical (and unfortunately narrow minded) NZ perception. So funny appartments work fine for families all over the world. What is wrong with us?

Actually - I did grow up in a (three bedroom) apartment. Nothing wrong with that for a small family. For larger families they had as well larger apartements in the same block.

One of our kids lives with his family in a 3 bedroom apartment in Singapore. 11th floor. Great childrens playing ground in the backyard. Walking distance to his place of work. Nice views, large swimming pool in walking distance, public transport as well as dining venues basically next door. Normally quiet location (there is a sport field which sometimes can be a bit noisy at events), however never heard anything from the neighbours when staying in his appartment ...

Why would anybody want to live instead in a wooden box surrounded by high boarded fences sitting on their own piece of land - and have a 60 min commute to many places they need to go (as many people in Auckland do)?

Maybe we need to change our perspective ...

[777]

Good point BP but what is it with the competition between developers in NZ to create the smallest apartments possible? We are creating blocks like the housing estates in the UK.

[BlackPeter]

Good point BP but what is it with the competition between developers in NZ to create the smallest apartments possible? We are creating blocks like the housing estates in the UK.

Agreed - many of the apartment blocks (I know of) in NZ are low quality and too small for families. However - it would not be rocket science to build better ones ... it probably is just the market giving people what they expect ...

[Rep]

Interersting. I am building a new home shortly, after years in an older home with a very successful positive pressure vent system - but I can't for the life of me understand how they can be expected to work in a new near enough to air tight home.
What brand of balanced system did you install? Does the heat exchanger seem efficient, and of course - cost? Grateful for any info.

I installed a Cleanaire system at the time and installed the MB600-95 model heat exchanger but used a local HVAC installer to do the design and installation (there's also an annual service - mainly an inspection and filter change). It was not cheap and I think close to $10k although it would be more than that now - they also have a pretty low tech controller, no timer and it's essentially two switches (on/off and summer/winter mode with a dial for fan speed) which I have inside a hall cupboard but usually don't actually change settings except the summer/winter mode and may dial down the fan speed at night as opposed to the day.
http://www.cleanaire.co.nz/
http://www.cleanaire.co.nz/Products/CLEANAIRE+HRV.html

I went for the 95% efficiency heat exchanger rather than 80%. I live in Auckland and in a well insulated house but the hygrometer suggests that the humidity is well controlled and the house is warm. I also don't have massive heating bills - until we had children we mainly used a flued gas fireplace for the main living space and some oil column heaters on timers for the bedroom - but we installed and use heat pumps for heating with timers and wifi controllers.

The other system I looked at was this one - the Mitsubishi Lossnay although I seem to recall something about there was something about the exchanger core that I wasn't convinced about:
http://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/ventilation/how.aspx

[fungus pudding]

I installed a Cleanaire system at the time and installed the MB600-95 model heat exchanger but used a local HVAC installer to do the design and installation (there's also an annual service - mainly an inspection and filter change). It was not cheap and I think close to $10k although it would be more than that now - they also have a pretty low tech controller, no timer and it's essentially two switches (on/off and summer/winter mode with a dial for fan speed) which I have inside a hall cupboard but usually don't actually change settings except the summer/winter mode and may dial down the fan speed at night as opposed to the day.
http://www.cleanaire.co.nz/
http://www.cleanaire.co.nz/Products/CLEANAIRE+HRV.html

I went for the 95% efficiency heat exchanger rather than 80%. I live in Auckland and in a well insulated house but the hygrometer suggests that the humidity is well controlled and the house is warm. I also don't have massive heating bills - until we had children we mainly used a flued gas fireplace for the main living space and some oil column heaters on timers for the bedroom - but we installed and use heat pumps for heating with timers and wifi controllers.

The other system I looked at was this one - the Mitsubishi Lossnay although I seem to recall something about there was something about the exchanger core that I wasn't convinced about:
http://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/ventilation/how.aspx

Many thanks - good information.

[minimoke]

Maybe. But what's the alternative? Should society presume that we set a minimum income for having a family?are we that encumbered by the benificiary protection succesive governments have placed over Virtually every person we cant make this decision for ourselves?

The govermnent and opposition parties sre doing a very good job of filling our vacuous minds with rubbish. Like its a right to have a brand new $600,000 house.

[Bjauck]

I live in a modern and airtight home - I regularly don't open any of the windows for days if not weeks. You can build air tight homes that don't need windows to be opened if you address the ventilation issues with good design..... The modern house in which the child become ill, did not have a ventilation system. Maybe the landlord decided it was too expensive? With NZ tenancy laws it would probably not be worthwhile for the tenant to instal a system, even if they could afford one.

[Bjauck]

A typical (and unfortunately narrow minded) NZ perception. So funny appartments work fine for families all over the world. What is wrong with us?... Or is it because in densely populated areas there was no other choice. From the days of the Roman insula it has been a norm in European cities. Many European cities developed with a large number of working people, without private transport, needing to be within a short distance of where they could earn a living. Anyway a difference in culture and with increasing population a looming culture shock for Aucklanders to contend with.

[fungus pudding]

Labour / Nats even stevens in the polls they say

Might change after tonight's bit of reality TV

Who are 'they' ?

[Joshuatree]

They are ahead of national.Tonights debate to come.
Watch: Labour rockets ahead of National in stunning Colmar Brunton Poll result (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjO_Y-y6YDWAhUEf7wKHbStDOAQqUMILTAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvnz.co.nz%2Fone-news%2Fnew-zealand%2Fwatch-labour-rockets-ahead-national-in-stunning-colmar-brunton-poll-result&usg=AFQjCNH0i5stxf5oomwydMv0E_k53oYM5w)

[elZorro]

They are ahead of national.Tonights debate to come.
Watch: Labour rockets ahead of National in stunning Colmar Brunton Poll result (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjO_Y-y6YDWAhUEf7wKHbStDOAQqUMILTAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvnz.co.nz%2Fone-news%2Fnew-zealand%2Fwatch-labour-rockets-ahead-national-in-stunning-colmar-brunton-poll-result&usg=AFQjCNH0i5stxf5oomwydMv0E_k53oYM5w)

You beat me to it JT :) Guess it's all over now, bar the shouting. I'll be glued to the leader's debate on TV1 from 7.00.

[winner69]

You beat me to it JT :) Guess it's all over now, bar the shouting. I'll be glued to the leader's debate on TV1 from 7.00.


It's Jacinda's to lose now

Won't be watching reality TV tonight - embarrassing to see Bill bumble his way through.

Jacinda just needs to stand there and smile and hardly say anything - let Bill bury himself

[tim23]

Just posted on other thread - its 2 against 1 in the debate but then again the Tories have never been about fairness

[Joshuatree]

Im not watching it live as my protest; will speed through the ads later. This could be the beginning of the end of hoskings too; double whammy.:t_up:

[tim23]

Nice call - 2 for the price of 1 even better!
Im not watching it live as my protest; will speed through the ads later. This could be the beginning of the end of hoskings too; double whammy.:t_up:

[elZorro]

It's Jacinda's to lose now

Won't be watching reality TV tonight - embarrassing to see Bill bumble his way through.

Jacinda just needs to stand there and smile and hardly say anything - let Bill bury himself

Look at that poll W69, we didn't need a revolution after all. Just someone who looks like a statesperson.

[winner69]

Look at that poll W69, we didn't need a revolution after all. Just someone who looks like a statesperson.

Yes we might get change EZ ......but I fear a Labour led government won't really be much different than the encumbents ....essentially just a continuation of the same old way of doing things, not revolutionary is it.

[elZorro]

Yes we might get change EZ ......but I fear a Labour led government won't really be much different than the encumbents ....essentially just a continuation of the same old way of doing things, not revolutionary is it.

I'm all for steady change anyway, and I think the Labour/Green policies are heading in the right direction. There's a fair bit will happen as soon as Labour get back in power.

[Joshuatree]

Great first debate for Jacinda .She was interrupted a lot by hosings and Bill but kept her cool and got her messages across. Maybe she can interrupt them back more next time , with her authenticness and passion not aggressively or rudely; just what a leader needs t do to correct things. Bill looked to have worked hard with his authority hand movements ala trump; it looked practiced and staged to me and one got the feeling that he didn't actually believe what he was saying. I saw his scalp slide back and forth when he thought he had a good answer to make a hit. Did they know the questions in advance?

[BlackPeter]

Ah well - lets put it that way: comparing the debate with what we heard last year from the States made one somewhat content to live in peaceful NZ instead of in the US of A.

I don't think that any of the three was at their best, but yes, Jacinda came overall across as more - say natural or honest, Bill appeared at times somewhat artificial and could have been a bit faster thinking on his feet. Jacinda's achilles heel obviously - Labour didn't do any work the last 9 years and so she could not talk in any specific way about all the new taxes they want to introduce to pay for all the nice things she wants to distribute. Vote for me and we will get a working group to create all the taxes we can dream up is not really a great slogan - isn't it?

Anyway - encouraging that the TV debate was more civilised than the debate on this thread at times. If that's the choice I definitely would prefer Jacinda over JT or EZ ... for PM ;);

[Joshuatree]

Me Too, Absolutely:)

[iceman]

Look at that poll W69, we didn't need a revolution after all. Just someone who looks like a statesperson.

A statesperson !! Surely you don't mean Jacinda. Nothing stately about her but she gave Bill a run for his lacklustre money tonight.

[couta1]

I'm all for steady change anyway, and I think the Labour/Green policies are heading in the right direction. There's a fair bit will happen as soon as Labour get back in power. A fair bit will happen alright with most of it to do with a raft of new taxes.

[Joshuatree]

Don't forget the water tax to go back to the local councils to improve their local rivers and lakes from all that yellow snow that skiers generously give in thanks for a beautiful days skiing in nature, just like cow next to a river except the cow is ignorant.

[Bjauck]

A fair bit will happen alright with most of it to do with a raft of new taxes. They have said that the NZ tax system is currently unfair. Many commentators agree with that. So Labour are promising a review of taxation with a tax working group. They have been upfront that they won't rule out a CGT, which is electorally brave in NZ. So a cgt and other new taxes may or may not happen under Labour. At least they have been open about the prospect. It's about time for a thorough tax review.

My guess is that it could well take over a year for a thorough review to take place and to make recommendations. So if Labour get in, by the time any major new taxes or tax overhaul are formulated we may have the chance to vote on them, before they are implemented, in another election

[fungus pudding]

They have said that the NZ tax system is currently unfair. Many commentators agree with that. So Labour are promising a review of taxation with a tax working group. They have been upfront that they won't rule out a CGT, which is electorally brave in NZ. So a cgt and other new taxes may or may not happen under Labour. At least they have been open about the prospect. It's about time for a thorough tax review.

My guess is that it could well take over a year for a thorough review to take place and to make recommendations. So if Labour get in, by the time any major new taxes or tax overhaul are formulated we may have the chance to vote on them, before they are implemented, in another election

Tax is certainly unfair. Some pay only approx 10 to 17% of their income while others can pay up to almost 33%.

[minimoke]

Tax is certainly unfair. Some pay only approx 10 to 17% of their income while others can pay up to almost 33%.
If you breed you get tax credits.

If you don't (which is probably the number one best way of slowing climate change) you will get pinged 33% on your top earnings.

[Bjauck]

Tax is certainly unfair. Some pay only approx 10 to 17% of their income while others can pay up to almost 33%. If you think income tax ( and the current way income is assesssed) is the only way tax should be raised.

[BlackPeter]

They have said that the NZ tax system is currently unfair. Many commentators agree with that. So Labour are promising a review of taxation with a tax working group. They have been upfront that they won't rule out a CGT, which is electorally brave in NZ. So a cgt and other new taxes may or may not happen under Labour. At least they have been open about the prospect. It's about time for a thorough tax review.

My guess is that it could well take over a year for a thorough review to take place and to make recommendations. So if Labour get in, by the time any major new taxes or tax overhaul are formulated we may have the chance to vote on them, before they are imp,emended, in another election

Agreed ... though you might argue it is one of the fairest systems in the world. Personally - I know many more complicated systems, but none which is "fair" to everybody. One of these things - fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

But of course may there be ways to improve our tax system, depending on what your objectives are. Just wondering why Jacinda is not able to clearly specify what she wants to tax now and add that she will set up this working group (in case she gets the numbers) and use the outcoming recommendations to go into the next election. Now - this would be transparent and fair. Why leave it instead to everybody's imagination how much she wants to put on the screws if elected?

[Bjauck]

If you breed you get tax credits.

If you don't (which is probably the number one best way of slowing climate change) you will get pinged 33% on your top earnings.
Who would then be able to look after the ageing population? Do the current migration policies mean that you could let kiwi kids live and suffer ill health in bad conditions because youcan always get future young (low paid) workers from overseas?

[fungus pudding]

If you think income tax ( and the current way income is assesssed) is the only way tax should be raised.

No. Our consumption tax (GST) is a sensible tax, and a rise in GST with a reduction in income tax would not only be productive, but with tourism being one of our top earners makes a lot of sense. Even gets rid of the nonsense of a tourist tax.

[Bjauck]

Agreed ... though you might argue it is one of the fairest systems in the world. Personally - I know many more complicated systems, but none which is "fair" to everybody. One of these things - fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

But of course may there be ways to improve our tax system, depending on what your objectives are. Just wondering why Jacinda is not able to clearly specify what she wants to tax now and add that she will set up this working group (in case she gets the numbers) and use the outcoming recommendations to go into the next election. Now - this would be transparent and fair. Why leave it instead to everybody's imagination how much she wants to put on the screws if elected? As Labour have not been in government for some time....it would be reckless to promise specifics without undertaking a thorough review.

[Bjauck]

No. Our consumption tax (GST) is a sensible tax, and a rise in GST with a reduction in income tax would not only be productive, but with tourism being one of our top earners makes a lot of sense. Even gets rid of the nonsense of a tourist tax. so the top rate of 33% does not look so bad in conjunction with the flat rate gst, which you don't have to pay if you can invest your savings in investments for the capital gain.

the tourist tax is a questionable one...

i agree dropping the income tax rate and introducing a cgt could boost production.

[dobby41]

the tourist tax is a questionable one...

i agree dropping the income tax rate and introducing a cgt could boost production.

I do a lot of travel around the world - tourist tax is nothing really.

Increasing GST is a good and bad idea.
Unfortunately it hits the poor the most because they spend all their money on things that attract GST.
My, I travel overseas and that doesn't attract GST.
Also, reducing the tax as compensation sounds good - except over 50% of tax payers effectively don't pay tax with WFF etc.
So reducing from 0 doesn't really help them.
So a double wammy for them.

[BlackPeter]

As Labour have not been in government for some time....it would be reckless to promise specifics without undertaking a thorough review.

Are you saying they are inexperienced and clueless in how to run a government? Well, in this case they better should not apply :p

[Bjauck]

Are you saying they are inexperienced and clueless in how to run a government? Well, in this case they better should not apply :p
Perhaps...it is a risk as they have not been tested for so long. Are you suggesting a one party state is the best system?

[fungus pudding]

so the top rate of 33% does not look so bad in conjunction with the flat rate gst, which you don't have to pay if you can invest your savings in investments for the capital gain.

the tourist tax is a questionable one...

i agree dropping the income tax rate and introducing a cgt could boost production.

I don't know who you are agreeing with. I said GST, not CGT. The worth of a capital gains tax depends on its design. It certainly should contain a repatriation clause. And in spite of what the hoi- polloi think, investment in real estate is treated no differently from shares or any other commodity investment. Besides, traders in real estate are taxed at their marginal tax rates at present.

[fungus pudding]

Perhaps...it is a risk as they have not been tested for so long. Are you suggesting a one party state is the best system?

That's silly, but anyone putting their hand up to run the show should come out with specifics - rather than 'vote for us and we'll get some mob who thinks along our lines to work out the details if and only if we win.'

[minimoke]

Who would then be able to look after the ageing population? Do the current migration policies mean that you could let kiwi kids live and suffer ill health in bad conditions because youcan always get future young (low paid) workers from overseas?
The aging population should have had the means to look after themselves before they become aged. Every dollar going to something like a quioxite windmill that is climate change is a dollar they can't use to support themselves.

Less kids means less suffering ill health in bad conditions.

We need migrants (low paid) simply because local NZers dont want to do low skill work. Dont get me started on Nationals manipulation of the labour market with their pay equity meddling. There is zero excuse for not having enough tradespeople to build houses - if christchurch earthquakes wasnt enough to give these apprenticeships an endless supply of job seekers then nothing will. Proof to there being alternatives to getting a meaningful job to pay for an affordable house.

[Rep]

As with all taxes, the devil is in the detail.

Family Home will be exempt apparently - that introduces distortions in the same way that stamp duty creates with houses in Australia. For instance, a potential unintended consequence is that, owner-occupiers spend a lot of money renovating and improving their homes at the expense of investment of productive assets (or even over-capitalising) which makes existing homes less affordable to first home buyers.

Housing rental stock. Presumably the CGT would apply when sold so we could see further hoarding of properties by larger groups and ma/pa investors bailing out because they fear a CGT (non rational as you have to make a gain to pay tax) and we end up with rental stock being illiquid for affordable homes.

Farms, businesses. So when does the CGT apply - do we set a baseline value at 'valuation day' for all post valuation day gains... good luck with administering that.
Do we have a carve out for long term holders of farms/businesses (beware hoarding effect).... what about baby boomers who are selling businesses - do they increase price to compensate for CGT and are all those baby boomers looking to sell have interested buyers now let alone with a CGT? Will that stifle investment in productivity?

What happens to capital losses?


These are all things to be worked out... what about the effect of inflation reducing the value of money.... what index do you use for this...

I'm glad that someone else has to sort this out... and potentially the extra tax returns to be filed and sort.

[Bjauck]

....The worth of a capital gains tax depends on its design. Of course.

And in spite of what the hoi- polloi think, investment in real estate is treated no differently from shares or any other commodity investment. ... Nothing like putting yourself in a superior class from those who you think may disagree with you. All residential real estate is treated the same as other investments apart from the majority of it which is still owner-occupied! And you can certainly do a good amount of leveraging with investment in land. Even labour's plans include an exemption for owner-occupied investment in real estate. So labour would continue the unfairness. So owner occupiers would continue to have the privilege of their tax preferred investment. Tough for all those who cannot afford to own their own homes and can only invest in fully taxed fixed interest and share investments?

[Bjauck]

That's silly, but anyone putting their hand up to run the show should come out with specifics - rather than 'vote for us and we'll get some mob who thinks along our lines to work out the details if and only if we win.'

It would be reckless to specify the tax reform before undertaking a comprehensive review- no matter whether the reform was suggested by an incumbent or someone applying to be the government. Sensible.

Voters know that with Labour there will be a review of tax with possible reforms (which have been discussed generally but obviously not in detail as the review has not been held!). They know with National that it will be more of the same. Which would be more reckless?

[minimoke]

Re capital gains tax.

No matter how it is dressed up it will only ever work if there is a gain in capital value.

Seems to me with various parties policies on tax and expenditure we can see a pretty much wholesale halt in future gains. So little to worry about!

[BlackPeter]

Perhaps...it is a risk as they have not been tested for so long. Are you suggesting a one party state is the best system?

Certainly not ... but I prefer parties and politicians who keep their skills well honed during their opposition time. Opposition time should be for a party a time to regrow and improve their skills and to rejuvenate, not a time to sit back, complain and generally do nothing but throwing mud, complaining about their bad luck and the other parties better leadership and marketing systems. Labour was over 9 years a very weak opposition (well documented on this thread), stumbling from one inept leader to the next and not putting any effort into working out their policies.

I am somewhat concerned that this does not qualify them now to run the country ... better to give them three more years (under a now much better leader) to prepare them for government. Who knows - maybe they are next time able to cost their policies and tax increases? You don't need to be in government to do your homework.

[Bjauck]

Re capital gains tax.

No matter how it is dressed up it will only ever work if there is a gain in capital value.

Seems to me with various parties policies on tax and expenditure we can see a pretty much wholesale halt in future gains. So little to worry about! True taxing realised capital gains could be a moot point if people sell out (and cause values to drop) of assets reliant on capital gains! However if people divert their investment activity into income producing assets, you could see a boost in revenue from income tax and/or GST.

[artemis]

Re capital gains tax.

No matter how it is dressed up it will only ever work if there is a gain in capital value.

Seems to me with various parties policies on tax and expenditure we can see a pretty much wholesale halt in future gains. So little to worry about!

True dat. Also CGT does not kick in until asset is sold. So any delay in selling by an owner pushes government revenue well down the track.

Hard to believe a CGT will only attach to second or subsequent residential properties. If it does apply more widely eg shares, farms, businesses, then sensible investors will adjust their actions in their own best interest.

[Bjauck]

...Labour was over 9 years a very weak opposition (well documented on this thread), stumbling from one inept leader to the next and not putting any effort into working out their policies.

I am somewhat concerned that this does not qualify them now to run the country ... better to give them three more years (under a now much better leader) to prepare them for government.... Good points. There are many factors to bear in mind when deciding which Party would be more reckless to have in government. For Labour, it is a pity for them only just now to have a leader who is shaping up to the best one they've had for long.

[artemis]

Good points. There are many factors to bear in mind when deciding which Party would be more reckless to have in government. For Labour, it is a pity for them only just now to have a leader who is shaping up to the best one they've had for long.

Don't agree. There have been good Labour leaders in the past few years. In fact none were hopeless, they were just middle aged rather grey chaps. The constant changes didn't help them though.

Ms Ardern is not a grey chap, of course. Sure she smiles nicely and is empathetic, but she has been a senior caucus member for some time in a party which has not used the last 9 years to develop and agree important policy.

[Joshuatree]

Brian fallow in the herald today

"It is, of course, a bit rich of National to be scornful of the plan for a tax working group, when that is exactly what it did in 2009.
And if you think the tax system needs some significant changes - and it does - then it makes sense to be a bit careful about how to go about it.
The tax working group approach of picking all the best brains and publishing the advice from officials, academics and tax practitioners ahead of any final report and political decisions is simply good process."

[Joshuatree]

Its the usual bull dust from national re labours big spend up; they are so close. Brian Fallow in NZ Herald today

"Assuming, perhaps generously, that Labour can live with the tighter unallocated operating allowances its fiscal plan includes, its budgeted operating expenditure over the four years to June 2021 would be just $8b, or 2.3 per cent, higher than National plans.
Its revenue would be $7.4b, or 1.6 per cent higher. That does not look like an increase under the weight of which the economy would crumble.'

[iceman]

Don't forget the water tax to go back to the local councils to improve their local rivers and lakes from all that yellow snow that skiers generously give in thanks for a beautiful days skiing in nature, just like cow next to a river except the cow is ignorant.

****e. Wasn't aware of a new skiing tax but thanks for telling us. Couta1 we might have to book early to Queenstown in order to avoid Taxinda's grab :-(

[iceman]

Its the usual bull dust from national re labours big spend up; they are so close. Brian Fallow in NZ Herald today

"Assuming, perhaps generously, that Labour can live with the tighter unallocated operating allowances its fiscal plan includes, its budgeted operating expenditure over the four years to June 2021 would be just $8b, or 2.3 per cent, higher than National plans.
Its revenue would be $7.4b, or 1.6 per cent higher. That does not look like an increase under the weight of which the economy would crumble.'

Are they really ???? http://www.taxpayers.org.nz/bribe_o_meter

[fungus pudding]

Don't agree. There have been good Labour leaders in the past few years. In fact none were hopeless, they were just middle aged rather grey chaps. The constant changes didn't help them though.

Ms Ardern is not a grey chap, of course. Sure she smiles nicely and is empathetic, but she has been a senior caucus member for some time in a party which has not used the last 9 years to develop and agree important policy.

She's a tricky wee devil. When Hoskins suggested a water tax on producers would affect their profit she replied 'not if they increase profit margins' which probably sounded better to many of the great unwashed than saying 'not if they stick the price up'.

[minimoke]

She's a tricky wee devil. When Hoskins suggested a water tax on producers would affect their profit she replied 'not if they increase profit margins' which probably sounded better to many of the great unwashed than saying 'not if they stick the price up'.
I love that. There's obviously a little undiscovered profit pixie that you can just call on to increase returns.

If labour have one they are well worth a vote!

[Joshuatree]

Are they really ???? http://www.taxpayers.org.nz/bribe_o_meter

Yep Fallow has the facts . They are so similar.:t_up:Alot more of int there too. national has done huge shift left in a desperate attempt to show they care ; after 9 years of dithering fiddling; sorry not credible.
article.cfm (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/economy/news/article.cfm?c_id=34&objectid=11914565)

[fungus pudding]

Perhaps we could send Twyford and some of his mates who have all the answers over the ditch to sort out their housing.

https://www.domain.com.au/news/stop-pretending-everyone-will-own-a-home-housing-experts-say-20170831-gy8a3d/?benref=smh

[Rep]

Perhaps we could send Twyford and some of his mates who have all the answers over the ditch to sort out their housing.

https://www.domain.com.au/news/stop-pretending-everyone-will-own-a-home-housing-experts-say-20170831-gy8a3d/?benref=smh

Yes, as Twyford says Labour's solutions such as a comprehensive capital gains tax, stamp duty and restricting foreign buyers to new builds to increase supply and building new houses will solve the housing affordability problem (whoops didn't work in Australia).

[BlackPeter]

Perhaps we could send Twyford and some of his mates who have all the answers over the ditch to sort out their housing.

https://www.domain.com.au/news/stop-pretending-everyone-will-own-a-home-housing-experts-say-20170831-gy8a3d/?benref=smh

Go ahead ... whatever helps to get rid of Mr "Chinese sounding names".

Another interesting aspect however is that countries with lower homeownership rates like e.g. Germany (51.9%), Hong kong (51%), Switzerland (43.4 %), South Korea (54.2%) are much more wealthy than nearly all countries with high homeownership rates like e.g. Romania (96.4%), Slovakia (90.3%), Cuba (90%), India (86.6%) or e.g. Russia (84%). Only exception I can see in the list is Singapore (90.8%), and they have a quite unique system where the state builds and subsidizes an apartment for every Singaporean who gets married (well, the first time).

Here is the list - check it out yourself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

Labour wants to increase homeownership rates (currently NZ is on 64.8%, i.e. closer to the wealthy countries) - i.e. they want to make our country poorer!

Lets catch up with Romania or Russia - shall we?

Obviously - what these wealthier countries have in common are more sensible tenancy laws (and long, reliable and for both sides fair contracts) as well as more responsible tenants. One thing NZ could catch up with if we really want to improve instead of doing some window dressing by tuning the wrong parameters ...

[Bjauck]

...
Obviously - what these wealthier countries have in common are more sensible tenancy laws (and long, reliable and for both sides fair contracts) as well as more responsible tenants. One thing NZ could catch up with if we really want to improve instead of doing some window dressing by tuning the wrong parameters ... I agree..Both Labour and National maybe should accept that home ownerhip is increasingly out of reach of many and that low owner-occupier rates do not necessarily have to be bad.

Reform in several areas would be necessary. They should introduce tenancy reforms so that NZers no longer treat tenancy as a mark of failure or a poor insecure substitute for owning one's own home. If there are equally as effective alternative ways (in addition to owner-occupied housing) to build up a nest egg in addition to tenancy being seen as a positive option, then more tenants could take more pride in the house they occupy and consider it as a home.

[westerly]

Perhaps we could send Twyford and some of his mates who have all the answers over the ditch to sort out their housing.

https://www.domain.com.au/news/stop-pretending-everyone-will-own-a-home-housing-experts-say-20170831-gy8a3d/?benref=smh

Head of Australian economics at NAB Riki Polygenis said barring large-scale government intervention or a major catastrophe, prices won’t come down in the near future.

“A lot of the drivers that have driven up house prices to date such as strong population growth, foreign demand, limited supply, taxation arrangements,” she said. “Unless those factors change in a fundamental way I don’t think we’re going to see much improvement of housing affordability in Australia.”

English, Smith, and Adams certainly don't have the answers.

westerly

[fungus pudding]

Head of Australian economics at NAB Riki Polygenis said barring large-scale government intervention or a major catastrophe, prices won’t come down in the near future.

“A lot of the drivers that have driven up house prices to date such as strong population growth, foreign demand, limited supply, taxation arrangements,” she said. “Unless those factors change in a fundamental way I don’t think we’re going to see much improvement of housing affordability in Australia.”

English, Smith, and Adams certainly don't have the answers.

westerly
Neither do Robertson, Twyford or Taxinda.

[tim23]

They may have the answers you are merely speculating - you Tories seem to think no one else can govern with any competence but history shows you are wrong.

[fungus pudding]

They may have the answers you are merely speculating - you Tories seem to think no one else can govern with any competence but history shows you are wrong.
What is a Tory? I'm a New Zealander.

[hardt]

What is a Tory? I'm a New Zealander.

word for people on the political right, traditionalists and conservatives etc...

[fungus pudding]

word for people on the political right, traditionalists and conservatives etc...

It's a meaningless label, never applied to NZ politics.

[tim23]

I disagree you potentially fit the description - Tories or Nats take your pick same difference.
It's a meaningless label, never applied to NZ politics.

[fungus pudding]

I disagree you potentially fit the description

You are correct. I don't.

[Bjauck]

Tory is C17th word derived from the Irish word for an outlaw. Common as an informal (mostly derogatory) word for right wing UK Conservatives. However some right wingers use the term as a badge of pride. Sometimes it is used in Commonwealth countries by opponents when referring to right wing politicians.

Here's an interesting link to a program about the "New Right" supporters of Thatcherism:

Tory! Tory! Tory!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory!_Tory!_Tory!

[craic]

I read the Irish Times daily. The headlines? A homeless man dies on the street - he seems to have had a home and family in Australia but had been back in Dublin for years and the agencies and his friends made a little shrine where he died and a woman in Cork was found dead in her tent and on it goes about the homeless and the many families who have no house or home. There appears to be no difference to here or anywhere else. In other words, no country, regardless of their politics has an answer. Changing your vote won't change anything. I the WW2 the British had to come up with a solution and they built thousands of Nissan huts. The most basic accommodation built in a couple of days and adequate to thousands who had been bombed out. Many people enjoyed the lifestyle and the huts lasted decades past their expected lifespan. I'm sure a few thousand erected here would put a brake on rentals and house prices and give people an opportunity to save but unfortunately there is no one out thereon the hustlings with the balls to move that far.

[777]

I disagree you potentially fit the description - Tories or Nats take your pick same difference.

Are you really as ignorant as you appear on these boards?

[Joshuatree]

Certainly not ... but I prefer parties and politicians who keep their skills well honed during their opposition time. Opposition time should be for a party a time to regrow and improve their skills and to rejuvenate, not a time to sit back, complain and generally do nothing but throwing mud, complaining about their bad luck and the other parties better leadership and marketing systems. Labour was over 9 years a very weak opposition (well documented on this thread), stumbling from one inept leader to the next and not putting any effort into working out their policies.

I am somewhat concerned that this does not qualify them now to run the country ... better to give them three more years (under a now much better leader) to prepare them for government. Who knows - maybe they are next time able to cost their policies and tax increases? You don't need to be in government to do your homework.

National weren't qualified after helens reign in fact i was shocked and was very concerned at that motley bunch. And remember them increasing GST with no debate at all ; sneaky. Sensible for the new labour party to review as national did. Imagine 3 more years of national to not fix anything ! No way; the incremental fiddling damage is done, they are SEPIA already.

[BlackPeter]

I read the Irish Times daily. The headlines? A homeless man dies on the street - he seems to have had a home and family in Australia but had been back in Dublin for years and the agencies and his friends made a little shrine where he died and a woman in Cork was found dead in her tent and on it goes about the homeless and the many families who have no house or home. There appears to be no difference to here or anywhere else. In other words, no country, regardless of their politics has an answer. Changing your vote won't change anything. I the WW2 the British had to come up with a solution and they built thousands of Nissan huts. The most basic accommodation built in a couple of days and adequate to thousands who had been bombed out. Many people enjoyed the lifestyle and the huts lasted decades past their expected lifespan. I'm sure a few thousand erected here would put a brake on rentals and house prices and give people an opportunity to save but unfortunately there is no one out thereon the hustlings with the balls to move that far.

Craic, it is "Nissen hut", named after Major Peter Norman Nissen. It is not a "Nissan" hut, though the second name might be more appropriate for the people in Auckland sleeping in their cars ;).

Personally I am not sure whether we really would want Nissens corrugated iron huts (they do look ugly) ... but I agree that it shouldn't be too hard to knock something up which is better suitable for human occupation than a car, looks better than a Nissen hut and is cheaper than an average house in Auckland ... but hey, it appears in today's world it either must be a million dollar mansion or nothing ...

[Bjauck]

...but I agree that it shouldn't be too hard to knock something up which is better suitable for human occupation than a car, looks better than a Nissen hut and is cheaper than an average house in Auckland ... but hey, it appears in today's world it either must be a million dollar mansion or nothing ... A million dollars in Auckland does not get what it used to. You may be lucky to get with consents and fees a Nissen or even a Nissan with plumbed in out-house plus an Auckland section to put it on for that price. Maybe we should accept what seems to be the inevitable and go the whole "developing nation" route and build shanty towns/Fovella districts.

[elZorro]

I'd just like to point out that this thread, started by Belgarion just after the 2011 elections and reflecting his/her dismay at the prospect of another three years under National, has reached 1,000,000 views and 900 pages. We're on the cusp of Labour taking power with either the Greens or NZ First (or both), and it has taken another six years. But I'm sure it will have been worth waiting for, and we've certainly thrashed out some good arguments in the meanwhile. Cheers!

https://thestandard.org.nz/in-the-one-month-since-jacinda-ardern-became-leader/

[BlackPeter]

A million dollars in Auckland does not get what it used to. You may be lucky to get with consents and fees a Nissen or even a Nissan with plumbed in out-house plus an Auckland section to put it on for that price. Maybe we should accept what seems to be the inevitable and go the whole "developing nation" route and build shanty towns/Fovella districts.

I think there are lots of better options around. They might though require people to be prepared to live in semi-detached houses, potentially in some of these typical British row houses or (shock horror) in apartment blocks.

So far however it appears the pain is not bad enough to consider these horrible third world options ... we keep building single houses (though on smaller and smaller patches) and if that does not work, we better take the Nissan.

[fungus pudding]

I'd just like to point out that this thread, started by Belgarion just after the 2011 elections and reflecting his/her dismay at the prospect of another three years under National, has reached 1,000,000 views and 900 pages. We're on the cusp of Labour taking power with either the Greens or NZ First (or both), and it has taken another six years. But I'm sure it will have been worth waiting for, and we've certainly thrashed out some good arguments in the meanwhile. Cheers!

https://thestandard.org.nz/in-the-one-month-since-jacinda-ardern-became-leader/

All Jacinda has done so far is tell us about all 'the conversations' she is going to have with everyone, mainly about taxes. I'm not sure why people with her view of utopia don't just go and live somewhere in Scandinavia. You should give it some thought too eZ. :p

[Joshuatree]

More tax there so youre better off here fp. You can contribute or you can go.

National have blown it big time
Underperformed for the majority; people have become more expendable under national; thats about to change

With people valuation over, property, homeless homed.

Health care value over unreachable prohibitive DHB budgets

Environmental value over the continual degradation of our land rivers flora and fauna under national.

People valued and rising out of poverty .

The slave trade here stopped and more locals employed to harvest and prune; an equal playing field
Its been a big fail over 9 long years and the longer they've been in the longer its going t take to fix some of those things unfortunately.

[Bjauck]

I think there are lots of better options around. They might though require people to be prepared to live in semi-detached houses, potentially in some of these typical British row houses or (shock horror) in apartment blocks.

So far however it appears the pain is not bad enough to consider these horrible third world options ... we keep building single houses (though on smaller and smaller patches) and if that does not work, we better take the Nissan.

There are plenty of apartments and terraces going up in Auckland. Even the price of (second hand) apartments in Auckland are unaffordable for first home buyers, let alone a terraced house.

Fair enough you think the Kiwi culture of owning stand alone sections with gardens should change. A whole heep of other reforms should occur too. You want NZ to become more British? I guess we could not get further away from Europe ;)

A quick scout on an online real estate site finds:

Some 3 bed new central city terraces for $1.5m each
Some 3 bed new terraces in three kings for $1.3m each
Some 3 bed terraces in S. Auckland's Mt Wellington for $750,000 each

Maybe a mansion aint what it used to be.

[iceman]

More tax there so youre better off here fp. You can contribute or you can go.

National have blown it big time
Underperformed for the majority; people have become more expendable under national; thats about to change

With people valuation over, property, homeless homed.

Health care value over unreachable prohibitive DHB budgets

Environmental value over the continual degradation of our land rivers flora and fauna under national.

People valued and rising out of poverty .

The slave trade here stopped and more locals employed to harvest and prune; an equal playing field
Its been a big fail over 9 long years and the longer they've been in the longer its going t take to fix some of those things unfortunately.

JT you obviously haven't taken heed of Taxinda's order to be positive. Even she admitted on TV that the NZ economy was the envy of the World and very few countries doing better, on most scores.

Regarding the slave trade, the most noticeable example of it was Labour's import of young socialists to work on their election campaign with no employment rights attached and 3rd World accommodation conditions.
It is simply silly and ill informed on your behalf to suggest we should stop bringing in labour for the horticulture industry (I think that's what you're saying in your post). The local workers are not there and the few that are, are generally totally unreliable. Stopping immigration for such jobs would kill this fast growing industry and many others. But its difficult to estimate what effect Labour's "policy" would have as they've provided no details for their immigration or any other policy and how its going to be implemented..

I just read her ridiculous comments yesterday on going after landlords. How pathetic !

[winner69]

I just read her ridiculous comments yesterday on going after landlords. How pathetic !

..........but Jacinda sent me an email saying she's going to make it 'fairer and more stable for landlords'

Her (OK Labours) initiatives will only see 50% of NZers paying more rent methinks - and some can't even afford it now.

[craic]

At the present time we have a large part of State Housing stock empty and the excuse seems to be that the housing is below standard or drug affected or whatever. Now Labours proposals will push a lot of private rentals into the same wheelbarrow. Landlords will, in many cases, sell and opt for simpler investments in other areas. In the worst areas, Auckland and the like, investment in rental property is hard work. I know of at least one person locally who lives happily in a tin garage. It may not seem to be very nice living in a tin shed but its a contract between two individuals and the government should not be involved. I should be able to go to the housing Corp and suggest that I and my family will move into one of your grotty properties and spend the next two years on reduced rent while I restore the place in my spare time. Instead the places remain empty and open to vandalism. Why are there no such initiatives available, only the prospect of bigger sticks to beat landlords.

[artemis]

There are always state houses vacant, and Housing NZ reports in detail on these quarterly.

486 state houses under repair at end of June (114 in Auckland). These are classified as short term vacancies, \ready to let when repairs done.

There are also 684 long term vacancies due to 'renewal or maintenance' (62 in Auckland). These properties include 265 meth contaminated and 73 suspected being tested.

Other long term vacant properties are down for redevelopment, sale or demolition.

[winner69]

Elections around the world the last few years have been weird events. New Zealand no exception. A lot of it has to do with generational changes.

What's going on isn't a surprise if one had read The Fourth Turning: an American Prophecy by Strauss and Howe.

An intriguing read - not too late to read as the prophecy is still playing out






I know a guy called Bannon uses it as his bible but maybe he's more switched on then what people him credit for

[Bjauck]

..........but Jacinda sent me an email saying she's going to make it 'fairer and more stable for landlords'

Her (OK Labours) initiatives will only see 50% of NZers paying more rent methinks - and some can't even afford it now. If tenants cannot afford the rents asked, I guess the houses will remain empty or landlords will sell their investments. Maybe more first home owners will be able to move back into the market.

If there is more security of tenure for good tenants, maybe more tenants will be able to provide stability for their families and take good care of their landlord's house.

[artemis]

If tenants cannot afford the rents asked, I guess the houses will remain empty or landlords will sell their investments.....

What happens to those tenants?

If they are young singles or couples they will move back home into their old room or move into a flat. Not a bad scenario and will give them a chance to bump up their Kiwisaver account.

If they have children or pets they will ask relations to budge up and make room for them. Overcrowding is a significant cause of illness and stress, plus if the rellies are tenants they are at risk of being evicted for cause if numbers breach the tenancy agreement. If rellies are state house tenants, they may be allowed to stay but income related rent will increase.

Not all tenants who can't afford rent will fit those common scenarios obviously but many will.

[fungus pudding]

If there is more security of tenure for good tenants, maybe more tenants will be able to provide stability for their families and take good care of their landlord's house.

Let me guess. You've never been a landlord - huh? Turn that on it's head. Good tenants who take proper care of their landlord's house seldom have a problem with stability in the homes they rent.

[BlackPeter]

If tenants cannot afford the rents asked, I guess the houses will remain empty or landlords will sell their investments. Maybe more first home owners will be able to move back into the market.

If there is more security of tenure for good tenants, maybe more tenants will be able to provide stability for their families and take good care of their landlord's house.

I agree with that. And while not normally supporting Labour's policies ... I think the proposed changes are good - and just moving NZ's tenancy laws a bit closer to what's since a long time standard in more civilised (and wealthier) countries.

Improving the protection of (reasonable and reliable) tenants who pay their rents on time, increasing the minimum notice period to give tenants some more stability in their life, reducing the number of rent hikes per year to one and requiring the landlord to define already beforehand a formula for any rent hikes are all good moves. Hey, National could have come up with that, couldn't they?

All these conditions are absolutely standard in countries with much larger and stable markets for rented homes and with overall higher wealth. I have not heard the sky fall in in e.g. Switzerland and Germany when they improved their respective tenancy laws many decades ago to a standard Labour is now proposing for New Zealand.

Quite the opposite - rents in these countries are typically lower than here, tenancy contracts are typically very long-term - they often run over decades, the housing stock to rent is often better quality than what you can find in NZ, and for some funny reasons are there still a sufficient number of willing landlords around, and they make money as well.

[Bjauck]

What happens to those tenants?
... Depends...will Investors/Landlords be prepared to keep an non-earning investment if they insist on seeking a rent that no tenant could afford? There again, I guess it depends whether or not a capital gain was the main reason for the investment. Maybe many investors will decide that the changes are relatively minor and do not affect the pofitability of their investments. Perhaps some may decide the benefits of having contented good tenants, who can make longer term plans for rent costs and terms of tenure, actually enhance the value of their investments.

Overcrowding already exists. If it gets worse, then would it spur even a laissez-faire government into providing more social housing or otherwise remaining at risk of needing to provide more funding for social welfare, prisons and police to cater for a continued break down in society?

[Bjauck]

Let me guess. You've never been a landlord - huh? Turn that on it's head. Good tenants who take proper care of their landlord's house seldom have a problem with stability in the homes they rent. I have been a tenant. I also seek advice from others and listen to other's opinions and experience. However, I do have opinions on all types of situations, which affect me indirectly, but of which I have had no direct experience. Don't you?

[Joshuatree]

JT you obviously haven't taken heed of Taxinda's order to be positive. Even she admitted on TV that the NZ economy was the envy of the World and very few countries doing better, on most scores.

Regarding the slave trade, the most noticeable example of it was Labour's import of young socialists to work on their election campaign with no employment rights attached and 3rd World accommodation conditions.
It is simply silly and ill informed on your behalf to suggest we should stop bringing in labour for the horticulture industry (I think that's what you're saying in your post). The local workers are not there and the few that are, are generally totally unreliable. Stopping immigration for such jobs would kill this fast growing industry and many others. But its difficult to estimate what effect Labour's "policy" would have as they've provided no details for their immigration or any other policy and how its going to be implemented..

I just read her ridiculous comments yesterday on going after landlords. How pathetic !

No more pathetic then your ignorance Taxiceman. Less immigration got it!. We can't compete with the slave trade; got it! we need level playing field for local workers to fill many of those jobs.We need to stop the slave trade its a 3rd world thing happening here! Landlords need to be sorted out; many will not fix anything resulting in poor health and living. Tenants will get booted if they make a stand.sickening.