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fungus pudding
04-09-2017, 02:54 PM
No more pathetic then your ignorance Taxiceman. Less immigration got it!. We can't compete with the slave trade; got it! we need level playing field for local workers to fill many of those jobs.We need to stop the slave trade its a 3rd world thing happening here! Landlords need to be sorted out; many will not fix anything resulting in poor health and living. Tenants will get booted if they make a stand.sickening.

Indeed Comrade Taxcinda will fix the woes of the world with one simple flick of her socialist wand, imported in used condition from some other country where it just wouldn't work.

Joshuatree
04-09-2017, 03:23 PM
Sounds pretty non sensical.Can you give us some detail there fungus . Do you have a problem with paying your fair share of tax as you seem to be a little obsessed, freaked out.

fungus pudding
04-09-2017, 03:29 PM
Sounds pretty non sensical.Can you give us some detail there fungus . Do you have a problem with paying your fair share of tax as you seem to be a little obsessed, freaked out.

No - I've never been against paying my fair share of tax. I am against anyone paying an unfair share.

Joshuatree
04-09-2017, 04:12 PM
We will all pay our fair share. national and labour have a very similar spend promised. national is trying belatedly to throw some social carrots in a last moment effort to get elected but its too late and i don't trust them going though with those carrots. Eg money for addiction counselling. i know a person who spent 2 to 3 years training and she hasn't been able to get a job because funding was tiny/ non existent. I know labour will following through; national have had 9 years to make the gap bigger and they have. We can do better than that, they have to go.

fungus pudding
04-09-2017, 04:42 PM
We will all pay our fair share. national and labour have a very similar spend promised. national is trying belatedly to throw some social carrots in a last moment effort to get elected but its too late and i don't trust them going though with those carrots. Eg money for addiction counselling. i know a person who spent 2 to 3 years training and she hasn't been able to get a job because funding was tiny/ non existent. I know labour will following through; national have had 9 years to make the gap bigger and they have. We can do better than that, they have to go.

National will reduce taxes so that every tax payer has more to spend. Labour want to spend it for you. I like to spend my own money.

fungus pudding
04-09-2017, 04:55 PM
Promoting tenancy and tax reform, even if the tax take is increased, a socialist does not make!

Of course it doesn't, but she is nevertheless a hard socialist. Always has been, comrade.

Joshuatree
04-09-2017, 05:02 PM
National will reduce taxes so that every tax payer has more to spend. Labour want to spend it for you. I like to spend my own money.

incorrect .labour wants to close the gap.People should come before excess.Im so happy to continue paying my share (the same not more)of tax if it helps my fellow men and women and children; you seem heartless and money obsessed.

fungus pudding
04-09-2017, 05:29 PM
incorrect .labour wants to close the gap.People should come before excess.Im so happy to continue paying my share (the same not more)of tax if it helps my fellow men and women and children; you seem heartless and money obsessed.
I just happen to think most families would be better off with a couple of thousands dollars more in their pockets per annum, than getting discounts on doctor visits and paying for future doctors, lawyers etc who once they qualify will be earning a hell of a lot more than many of those who put them through varsity. Labour are pulling the classic stunt of taxing the hoi polloi and bribing them with goodies using the only money they have. I.e. the dough they have lifted from the mug recipient of the goodies..

Bjauck
04-09-2017, 06:47 PM
Of course it doesn't, but she is nevertheless a hard socialist. Always has been, comrade. You're barking up the wrong tree there. Anyway, I'll more than likely be voting for the comrades in either ACT or TOP fwiw.

fungus pudding
04-09-2017, 06:54 PM
You're barking up the wrong tree there. Anyway, I'll more than likely be voting for the comrades in either ACT or TOP fwiw.

Surely you don't deny she is an extreme socialist, and that's something you can't hang on Act. Top certainly is extreme socialism.

Bjauck
04-09-2017, 07:01 PM
Surely you don't deny she is an extreme socialist, and that's something you can't hang on Act. Top certainly is extreme socialism. I guess it depends on your vantage point and how you define socialism. However, we have discussed socialism earlier, so it is best to refer to past posts.

elZorro
04-09-2017, 07:02 PM
Steven Joyce trying a bit of soap opera with Labour's budgeting. It won't work this time.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11916799

Nick Smith being picked on by freshwater enthusiasts outside ECAN offices.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/338626/no-rise-from-minister-over-crass-statue

And Paula Bennett says that some people have less human rights than others, in front of the cameras.

Another good day for Labour.

Joshuatree
04-09-2017, 07:02 PM
fp;Not extreme at all; hell even national is left of centre atm lol.

Joshuatree
04-09-2017, 07:12 PM
Yes elZ.They keep pushing that tired old barrow every election up a steep hill, result a stumbling, tumbling .tumbling down. Treating everyone as idiot sheepies to pull the wool over(hope couta is proud of me:)

Joshuatree
04-09-2017, 07:27 PM
Steven Joyce trying a bit of soap opera with Labour's budgeting. It won't work this time.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11916799

Nick Smith being picked on by freshwater enthusiasts outside ECAN offices.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/338626/no-rise-from-minister-over-crass-statue

And Paula Bennett says that some people have less human rights than others, in front of the cameras.

Another good day for Labour.

Yes so many failed / incompetent ministers in national have to go too much more then egg on their face. Cannibal vampire squid ministers from hell imo. The thought of Paula B ,2nd in command gives me shudders and explosive sounds of goosebumps accelerating all over.:eek2:.. It will be good for national to be in the opposition they too can renew and refresh; Eliminate the stale , redundant dead wood. Reminds me the way dead branches can stay on an avocado tree for years contributing nothing. If you are unfortunate enough to stand on one with out checking to see if there are leaves on the outermost twigs you hear snapand find yourself falling/failing.

Bjauck
05-09-2017, 04:37 AM
And Paula Bennett says that some people have less human rights than others, in front of the cameras..
Who would decide the level of criminality at which human rights start to be removed? Who would decide when warrants were no longer needed during investigations into certain "criminals"? It does sound a slippery slope.

Bill English confirmed the policy was that warrants would not be necessary when searching the property of "some gang members". It looks like legal rights are up for negotiation under National too now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96456807/bill-english-says-everyone-in-nz-has-human-rights

minimoke
05-09-2017, 06:23 AM
Who would decide the level of criminality at which human rights start to be removed? Who would decide when warrants were no longer needed during investigations into certain "criminals"? It does sound a slippery slope.

Bill English confirmed the policy was that warrants would not be necessary when searching the property of "some gang members". It looks like legal rights are up for negotiation under National too now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96456807/bill-english-says-everyone-in-nz-has-human-rights

I am extremely disturbed by that policy. I'd happily see gangs shot. But I know that's not right. I also know its not right to search without reasonable cause. You just cant go searching people who have a history.

We absolutely know we cant trust the police - look at their failure to bring a prosecution against that guy who lied in the Tamihere trial, they do not need more powers to run roughshod over our rights.

Utilise the existing laws (eg search for drugs / offensive weapons) but don't extend them. You'll have them knocking on your back door before you know it!

(and don't give me this f you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" bulls1t. You only have to look how they dealt to those old folks at the Death with Dignity meetings to see they don't care)

dobby41
05-09-2017, 06:35 AM
Who would decide the level of criminality at which human rights start to be removed? Who would decide when warrants were no longer needed during investigations into certain "criminals"? It does sound a slippery slope.

Bill English confirmed the policy was that warrants would not be necessary when searching the property of "some gang members". It looks like legal rights are up for negotiation under National too now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96456807/bill-english-says-everyone-in-nz-has-human-rights

A very slippery slope.
Many think it won't apply to them so who care - until there son visits, who has some gang affiliation that they didn't know about and next minute the police arrive.
All fair game.

elZorro
05-09-2017, 06:52 AM
I might be a bit compromised, but I thought Jacinda easily won that TV3 debate last night. She looked a lot more at home than Bill, she made some good points, and she refused to be interrupted for long. Voters can see she is the genuine article.

Bill kept going on about new taxes from Labour, with his marionette hands flailing. When they've been good at pulling out new taxes themsleves.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/decision-17-bill-english-promises-no-new-taxes.html

And they are still trying the '$11.7bill hole in Labour's budget' line, which I'm disappointed the press are still gabbling about this morning. Those figures have been checked, there is no hole. Labour's policies will also grow the economy properly, leading to an improved tax base from higher incomes and better company profits, and lower costs at WINZ. They did it in their last three terms, and they'll do it again.

So Labour's figures are safe, probably very conservative.

fungus pudding
05-09-2017, 06:57 AM
I might be a bit compromised, but I thought Jacinda easily won that TV3 debate last night.

You compromised ?? Of course Taxcinda won it eZ. Was Bill even there? Did they not invite him? Or can you only see Jacinda out of your one-eye?

elZorro
05-09-2017, 07:08 AM
You compromised ?? Of course Taxcinda won it eZ. Was Bill even there? Did they not invite him? Or can you only see Jacinda out of your one-eye?

Is your one-eye thinking about a possible CGT, and a possible small reduction in what would have otherwise been a tax-free gain for you on properties, at the expense of other taxpayers? Labour has other policies beside possible new, fairer tax structures. Labour voters tend to see the wider picture, FP. In any case, a CGT wouldn't be looking backwards. Most of us have already locked in untaxable capital gains.

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 07:17 AM
TaxiFungus. Bill was there and the only hole to be seen is in his credibility and Joyce's We have a national govt prepared to stoop TRUMP style and who are LYING,
All of labours figures have been verified to cover the fake news they knew was coming. BERL interviewed this morning say its national are lying. And 100,000 children Bill?.That 2nd 50,000 came off the top of your head didn't it? Jacindas drive is for this and you try and hog that too. National are addicted ;addicted to power, and you know what addicts will do to get what they need!

jonu
05-09-2017, 07:40 AM
In any case, a CGT wouldn't be looking backwards. Most of us have already locked in untaxable capital gains.

How do you know El Z? Aren't you waiting for the working group?

I didn't see the full debate. I saw some clips on the stuff website. Main point I would make is Jacinda's determination to avoid detail and concentrate on touchy, feely. When Bill pointed out wages were keeping up with cost of living she could only reply, "but what's important is what people feel" or words to that effect. I'm not falling for it.

I think Labour have taken a leaf out of Lange's election campaign and are relying on the "feel" that the country is ready for a change after 9 years. Lange was elected on next to no policy. "We need to see the books first" (in that case it was a reasonable statement after what Muldoon was up to).

BlackPeter
05-09-2017, 07:52 AM
Who would decide the level of criminality at which human rights start to be removed? Who would decide when warrants were no longer needed during investigations into certain "criminals"? It does sound a slippery slope.

Bill English confirmed the policy was that warrants would not be necessary when searching the property of "some gang members". It looks like legal rights are up for negotiation under National too now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96456807/bill-english-says-everyone-in-nz-has-human-rights

I agree - this policy (reducing the human rights of "perceived" criminals) worries me as well. But than - is it worse than Labour's policy of removing the presumption of innocence for people accused of sex crimes?

If I look into this particular stance on justice than neither National nor Labour look currently electable to me - both stand on very slippery slopes. Personally I think that this is a pity - National has a good track record in running the country and Labour have (in other areas) some good ideas how to improve it.

fungus pudding
05-09-2017, 07:57 AM
Is your one-eye thinking about a possible CGT, and a possible small reduction in what would have otherwise been a tax-free gain for you on properties, at the expense of other taxpayers? Labour has other policies beside possible new, fairer tax structures. Labour voters tend to see the wider picture, FP. In any case, a CGT wouldn't be looking backwards. Most of us have already locked in untaxable capital gains.

As I have stated a zillion times, I am not against a CGT. I am against a badly designed CGT. All we know is if Labour win they will bring in a CGT, but in what form?

elZorro
05-09-2017, 08:03 AM
As I have stated a zillion times, I am not against a CGT. I am against a badly designed CGT. All we know is if Labour win they will bring in a CGT, but in what form?

Yep, you want to roll an impending CGT cost into the next property purchase. In other words, no CGT.

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 08:06 AM
They are going to consult with the best brains in that area and make the best designed plan for NZ. Can't be more sensible, responsible and pragmatic then that. Why make an uninformed vote pulling announcement now and get more "big hole' rubbish from the opposition, national have joyce and crosby/textor and are smear tactic experts ,slimy, making this the acceptable norm behaviour, plain stooping, a desperate measure.
Labour are not. There is the VAST hole ,in the difference between the parties ethics.

fungus pudding
05-09-2017, 08:15 AM
They are going to consult with the best brains in that area and make the best designed plan for NZ. Can't be more sensible, responsible and pragmatic then that.

That's ridiculous. It's all subjective. If there was such a thing as 'the best' every country in the planet would have implemented it by now.

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 08:24 AM
Mr Subjectives favourite word subjective again. , best for NZ. are you a kiwi? Or from another idealist purist capitalist world?

BlackPeter
05-09-2017, 08:25 AM
They are going to consult with the best brains in that area and make the best designed plan for NZ. Can't be more sensible, responsible and pragmatic then that. Why make an uninformed vote pulling announcement now and get more "big hole' rubbish from the opposition, national have joyce and crosby/textor and are smear tactic experts ,slimy, making this the acceptable norm behaviour, plain stooping, a desperate measure.
Labour are not. There is the VAST hole ,in the difference between the parties ethics.

Just look at what you wrote. This the positive spirit Jacinda asked for :p?

Look - I agree that Labour's latest leader is a clear improvement compared to a long list of past failures. However - thanks for keeping to remind us that the only thing which really changed for Labour is the public face. Doesn't really matter whether you call her the lipstick on the pig which is the Labour party or the polish on the turt.

Nothing else has changed for Labour - and buying a car just because it has been polished a bit is as stupid as stepping on the Labour bus just because their driver has now a more pleasant smile. I guess just look at you - you don't even follow Jacinda's instructions of sending a positive message prior to the elections, how bad will it be afterwards?

The driver will not be able to determine the route ... it is the party I am worried about.

Please keep reminding us how the unmasked Labour looks like ...

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 09:10 AM
Everything is changing for the better; you can ride with it or watch the gap get bigger; a big fail in many parts of the world; we don't want to go down that divisive path. Labour just being here with their policies are forcing desperate national to play at being on all sides of centre; hilarious and shocking in the transparency revealed in the lust to retain power at any STOOPING cost by national ; the dirty tricks credibility (what?)party.

Bjauck
05-09-2017, 09:57 AM
I agree - this policy (reducing the human rights of "perceived" criminals) worries me as well. But than - is it worse than Labour's policy of removing the presumption of innocence for people accused of sex crimes? Not much in it now. Good question and really a question that I did not think we should have to contemplate in NZ. Perhaps Labour's planned review on changing legal rights in rape cases could be more easily confined to one more defined area. Would any legal review by independent experts recommend a change in the existing legal process? IMO, I doubt it, but I am not an expert...

However to to be honest I have come to the position that both of the major Parties now look a little bit ugly in this area. Is it a sign of recent desperation to remain in power that National are trying to appeal to certain sector (including NZF supporters?) of the electorate by showing how tough on "Laura Norder" they will be?

This type of thing is happening in Trump's America too.
Trump signs bill into law allowing warrantless searches in parts of VA, MD and DC

http://www.csoonline.com/article/3219840/security/trump-signed-bill-into-law-allowing-warrantless-searches-in-parts-of-va-md-and-dc.html

minimoke
05-09-2017, 10:12 AM
They are going to consult with the best brains in that area and make the best designed plan for NZ. Can't be more sensible, responsible and pragmatic then that.
Took them nine years in opposition to do this and they achieved nothing. So jow long do you think it will take for them to discover this particular answer.

And im not into trusting goverments to find the best answer. They always find the one that suits their agenda.

jonu
05-09-2017, 02:15 PM
Just got more detail from Steven Joyce about the budget hole from Labour. He is standing by his numbers, even giving reporters the page numbers to look up.

He was very pointed. Ask Grant Robertson where the allowance is for new spending ouitside of education and health. All Jacinda and Grant have said so far is it's a smear and he is wrong.

Detail is what Labour doesn't want. Joyce is no fool and wouldn't stake his reputation on something he can't back up. If Robertson can't front on this they are going to have to do a lot of back tracking.

winner69
05-09-2017, 02:51 PM
Just got more detail from Steven Joyce about the budget hole from Labour. He is standing by his numbers, even giving reporters the page numbers to look up.

He was very pointed. Ask Grant Robertson where the allowance is for new spending ouitside of education and health. All Jacinda and Grant have said so far is it's a smear and he is wrong.

Detail is what Labour doesn't want. Joyce is no fool and wouldn't stake his reputation on something he can't back up. If Robertson can't front on this they are going to have to do a lot of back tracking.

Not many experts agree with Steven

fungus pudding
05-09-2017, 02:53 PM
Just got more detail from Steven Joyce about the budget hole from Labour. He is standing by his numbers, even giving reporters the page numbers to look up.

He was very pointed. Ask Grant Robertson where the allowance is for new spending ouitside of education and health. All Jacinda and Grant have said so far is it's a smear and he is wrong.

Detail is what Labour doesn't want. Joyce is no fool and wouldn't stake his reputation on something he can't back up. If Robertson can't front on this they are going to have to do a lot of back tracking.

I agree that Joyce is less likely to be wrong than Robertson or BERL.
The thing I'd like them to explain is thier propsed assett and wealth taxes. Does that sound like a trip down memory lane to those days of death duities and gift duties?

jonu
05-09-2017, 02:56 PM
Not many experts agree with Steven

Joyce explained in detail where it was missing, quoting the page number. I haven't heard from anyone else saying "here it is....pg such and such"

winner69
05-09-2017, 02:57 PM
Just got more detail from Steven Joyce about the budget hole from Labour. He is standing by his numbers, even giving reporters the page numbers to look up.

He was very pointed. Ask Grant Robertson where the allowance is for new spending ouitside of education and health. All Jacinda and Grant have said so far is it's a smear and he is wrong.

Detail is what Labour doesn't want. Joyce is no fool and wouldn't stake his reputation on something he can't back up. If Robertson can't front on this they are going to have to do a lot of back tracking.

apparently steven wasn't the best of students

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 04:10 PM
Joyce is the smoothest doyen of fake news; he would say that; if he can convince people re his dirty big hole; national has a chance; if he doesn't con people national is gone. the national party will be remembered for a new low of the bar of the Dirtiest tricks fake news players; throw in hosings hootens etc. National are natural born liars after too many years at the trough imo.

jonu
05-09-2017, 04:20 PM
Joyce is the smoothest doyen of fake news; he would say that; if he can convince people re his dirty big hole; national has a chance; if he doesn't con people national is gone. the national party will be remembered for a new low of the bar of the Dirtiest tricks fake news players; throw in hosings hootens etc. National are natural born liars after too many years at the trough imo.

Less smear. More numbers please JT

artemis
05-09-2017, 04:38 PM
Less smear. More numbers please JT

Relentless negativity.

tim23
05-09-2017, 06:04 PM
Well put Joyce is trying to be a bit clever and its failed - desperate really.
Joyce is the smoothest doyen of fake news; he would say that; if he can convince people re his dirty big hole; national has a chance; if he doesn't con people national is gone. the national party will be remembered for a new low of the bar of the Dirtiest tricks fake news players; throw in hosings hootens etc. National are natural born liars after too many years at the trough imo.

tim23
05-09-2017, 06:06 PM
Said like a true Tory - you're all class.
Are you really as ignorant as you appear on these boards?

elZorro
05-09-2017, 06:25 PM
apparently steven wasn't the best of students

Not a great result over three years, was it? I'd have left those results off my CV. He must be pretty good at something else to have built up Radioworks into a saleable item. You know what they say, "Fake it until you make it".

Here's a post about Jacinda networking in the weekend. Sounds like a great time was had by all, look at these photos.

https://thestandard.org.nz/the-jacinda-phenomenon/

777
05-09-2017, 07:12 PM
Said like a true Tory - you're all class.

Like true politician you avoided the question.

fungus pudding
05-09-2017, 07:16 PM
Like true politician you avoided the question.

I'll help out. Yes, he's every bit as ignorant as he appears. Nobody could put it on to that degree; never ever anything constructive; just snide, sad, derogatory comments. Big chip on each shoulder I'd say.

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 07:28 PM
Less smear. More numbers please JT

Labour are not being dirty tricksters; national and some of you are smearing fake news so how about some decency or is it too late for you blind followers as well. Straighten up and fly right; some et=hics and fair play please;thankyou.

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 07:32 PM
apparently steven wasn't the best of students

Joyce failed at economics!! Theres your big hole:t_up::t_up::t_up::t_up::t_down::t_down::t_dow n::t_down::t_down::t_down::eek2:

jonu
05-09-2017, 07:37 PM
Labour are not being dirty tricksters; national and some of you are smearing fake news so how about some decency or is it too late for you blind followers as well. Straighten up and fly right; some et=hics and fair play please;thankyou.

More smear and still no numbers. Robertson now saying he'll cover it with spending efficiencies and growing the economy. Again no detail on how he is going to do those things.

Joyce is very good with detail. At a standup with reporters he was quoting page numbers and pointing out where Labour has it right in covering Health and Education promises and spending. He pointed out that is only about 50% of the budget. The annual increases in spending across everything else were missing. Doesn't seem that complicated.

I think National are going to expose the soft underbelly of Labour. Robertson is being dragged into the limelight. Joyce will be like a dog with a bone on this until Robertson actually fronts with some numbers.

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 07:42 PM
The numbers game (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96522791/politically-correct-the-deadly-serious-numbers-game)

Thats it credibility gone; thank you Joyce take a bow; national are history and what a pathetic lying deceiving finish to a party that became a mini me trump. National are Sepia. So pleased they've shafted themselves with their dirty smear tactics; but not an honourable Seppuku no dishonourable imo.

jonu
05-09-2017, 07:51 PM
The numbers game (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96522791/politically-correct-the-deadly-serious-numbers-game)

Thats it credibility gone; thank you Joyce take a bow; national are history and what a pathetic lying deceiving finish to a party that became a mini me trump. National are Sepia. So pleased they've shafted themselves with their dirty smear tactics; but not an honourable Seppuku no dishonourable imo.

Very strange article JT. She started out trashing Joyce and finished admitting he had a point. The very point that Joyce reinforced this afternoon

Joshuatree
05-09-2017, 08:03 PM
What are you on jonu; read the article; find the truth and it will set you free.

jonu
05-09-2017, 08:11 PM
What are you on jonu; read the article; find the truth and it will set you free.

I did read the article JT, and as I explained, felt Tracy Watkins did an about face. I thought it was a very poor piece of writing.

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 01:20 AM
I did read the article JT, and as I explained, felt Tracy Watkins did an about face. I thought it was a very poor piece of writing.

Semantics. Labour have slid the operational expenses into another column. Their numbers stack up but they have planned on spending the bit normally held for economic shocks. Put that back where it came from and there's the hole.

elZorro
06-09-2017, 05:33 AM
Semantics. Labour have slid the operational expenses into another column. Their numbers stack up but they have planned on spending the bit normally held for economic shocks. Put that back where it came from and there's the hole.

No they didn't, Grant Robertson specifically said they didn't use the spare amounts in their calculations. Anyway, Labour grew the economy so well in their last terms, that the tax take went up. There will be funds there. It's a bit ripe National taking potshots at Labour when during National's terms, the only way they could survive (after hitting the tax base) was to borrow heavily, and they're still borrowing to pay interest. None of it has been paid back, that's for a future generation, a future government.

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 05:51 AM
No they didn't, Grant Robertson specifically said they didn't use the spare amounts in their calculations. Anyway, Labour grew the economy so well in their last terms, that the tax take went up. There will be funds there. It's a bit ripe National taking potshots at Labour when during National's terms, the only way they could survive (after hitting the tax base) was to borrow heavily, and they're still borrowing to pay interest. None of it has been paid back, that's for a future generation, a future government.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that if they do win, we'll see death duties and gift duties back in no time at all. They should come clean on this rather than waffle on about consulting a tax group. She knows what she will do,

iceman
06-09-2017, 06:54 AM
I'll bet my bottom dollar that if they do win, we'll see death duties and gift duties back in no time at all. They should come clean on this rather than waffle on about consulting a tax group. She knows what she will do,

Of course they will, since they've now admitted they've left nothing to cover cost increases year by year outside of education and health, something that is hardly believable nor possible. But they could convince the public by coming clean and being honest about what they intend to do.
Pattrick Smellie this morning on Stuff https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/96510158/pattrick-smellie-politicking-politicians-arent-doing-themselves-any-favours

dobby41
06-09-2017, 07:00 AM
Semantics. Labour have slid the operational expenses into another column. Their numbers stack up but they have planned on spending the bit normally held for economic shocks. Put that back where it came from and there's the hole.

And Joyce didn't see that?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11917655

dobby41
06-09-2017, 07:02 AM
I love the way National claim their vision with the Waterview Tunnel when it was Labours vision that started it.
More egg - they really do look desperate these days.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 07:35 AM
Joyce is a hole .The. Crying wolf when it is a dog. He has sawn the limb off while sitting on it. I value all the independent economists NOT the national party strategist! .Never seen such a weight of economists stacked up against joyce's falsehood. A basic accounting error from joyce who failed his economics.

The facts and evidence are here.

Listenduration 3′ :50″ (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201857408/no-11b-hole-in-labour-s-fiscal-plan-economists-say)
joyce has brought politicking into disrepute imo and english is lowering himself to the same ,corrupted by power , not misinforming, or slanting but straight out lying, nothing less. Is labour stooping like this and abandoning decency, ethics and morals, no. That difference alone is more than enough for me to make an easy decision in a few weeks.

winner69
06-09-2017, 07:44 AM
Jacinda's going to find out the hard way about tax changes or whatever she wants to call them. They won't work but she will become a very upopular prime minister in the process. Tax changes are more successful if implemented by stealth.

as eminent economist John Kay says "....all tax systems are encrusted with barnacles, the product of the wheezes of politicians and the power of lobbies. But the results of such approaches to tax reform are usually disappointing."

If Jacinda needs more money in a hurry just increase the GST rate to 20% - easy peasy

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:02 AM
"Mr Joyce is looking very isolated in his criticism of Labour's alternative budget.
But in an election this tight, any mud that sticks will be worth the price in National's eyes."
Jane patterson RNZ

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:06 AM
I love the way National claim their vision with the Waterview Tunnel when it was Labours vision that started it.
More egg - they really do look desperate these days.

Great point dobby. Helen Clark was the vision there to save a neighbourhood having a highway through the middle of it. Ive already pointed out savings of re 6 mins were stated when it first opened but that become late double figures from Bridges head a few weeks later;)

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 08:10 AM
And Joyce didn't see that?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11917655


That's exactly what he did see. On their budget they will run out of money in year two and three. They won't of course because they will cover it with taxes after their 'review' of CGT, assett and wealth taxes. So look forward to death duties and gift duties coming back, and more borrowing which at least they have acknlowledged.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:12 AM
And Joyce didn't see that?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11917655

Taxifungus hasn't either, blind leading the blind and we know its not ignorance they just don't want to see it.

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 08:18 AM
Taxifungus hasn't either, blind leading the blind and we know its not ignorance they just don't want to see it.

If you took the time to puctuate your ramblings, they might become understandable.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:22 AM
That's exactly what he did see. On their budget they will run out of money in year two and three. They won't of course because they will cover it with taxes after their 'review' of CGT, assett and wealth taxes. So look forward to death duties and gift duties coming back, and more borrowing which at least they have acknlowledged.

You are obsessed about death and taxes;. You are telling us the future; you are not a prophet you don't have a tardus you are scaremongering exactly like joyce and bill ; you are a copycat clone .
"No economist or commentator has characterised it as a fiscal hole."

The national party chief strategist(joyce) is responsible for this lie and he would wouldn't he as he is allowed to go as low and dirty as possible by his leader.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:44 AM
The lies are right through all the way
Principals rubbish National's prefab classroom claim (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/338766/principals-rubbish-national-s-prefab-classroom-claim)

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:48 AM
I know you will remember where you were and what you were doing when this happened fungus; and it wasn't man landing on the moon.
"National introduced a tax package which included a GST hike - without campaigning on it - when it was first elected." jane patterson RNZ

jonu
06-09-2017, 08:49 AM
You are obsessed about death and taxes;. You are telling us the future; you are not a prophet you don't have a tardus you are scaremongering exactly like joyce and bill ; you are a copycat clone .

So many labels, so much name calling, so little punctuation.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 08:54 AM
":":":":":":;)If you align yourself with someones unethical behaviour , you become one yourself.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

winner69
06-09-2017, 08:59 AM
Jacinda has values

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 09:00 AM
I know you will remember where you were and what you were doing when this happened fungus; and it wasn't man landing on the moon.
"National introduced a tax package which included a GST hike - without campaigning on it - when it was first elected." jane patterson RNZ

I don't remember but I was probably celebrating the income tax reduction.

dobby41
06-09-2017, 09:01 AM
So many labels, so much name calling, so little punctuation.

Really!
That's the best you can do?

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 09:03 AM
":":":":":":;)If you align yourself with someones unethical behaviour , you become one yourself.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

That's not the sort of punctuation that jonu or I can understand, but at least you're trying.

BlackPeter
06-09-2017, 09:19 AM
So many labels, so much name calling, so little punctuation.

I guess this just shows that he run out of points ;).

Still - I think it is good to have some left wing mud throwers prior to the elections around. Always helped Nationals ratings in the past - and they do remember people that Jacinda is really just a pretty mask trying to conceal the view on an organisation full of troubled and uncontrollable individuals.

That's what people would get if they vote for Labour. Thanks - but no, thanks.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 09:21 AM
A film of a press conference in October that year, shortly before the election, shows Mr Key being asked whether National would consider raising GST as a way to cut large deficits in the Crown accounts. He replied: "National is not going to be raising GST. National wants to cut taxes, not raise taxes." Then they raised GST.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 09:22 AM
I guess this just shows that he run out of points ;).

Still - I think it is good to have some left wing mud throwers prior to the elections around. Always helped Nationals ratings in the past - and they do remember people that Jacinda is really just a pretty mask trying to conceal the view on an organisation full of troubled and uncontrollable individuals.

That's what people would get if they vote for Labour. Thanks - but no, thanks.

If you were honest you would acknowledge there is only one party actively lying and smearing

BlackPeter
06-09-2017, 09:24 AM
":":":":":":;)If you align yourself with someones unethical behaviour , you become one yourself.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Thanks for reminding us JT ... this will help all of us to avoid voting for the smearers and mud throwers, no matter how friendly the smile of the straw-woman they try to hide behind.

BlackPeter
06-09-2017, 09:27 AM
If you were honest you would acknowledge there is only one party actively lying and smearing

Let me guess - Labour? But they are clever - they claim the moral high ground but hired the people for the mud throwing. How much do they pay you, JT?

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 09:28 AM
"So far not a single economist has backed up the Finance Minister - all say the man in charge of the nation's books has got his sums wrong." Photo credit: Newshub
If you say something enough, repeat it enough and insist that it's true, does that make it true despite the facts?
Steven Joyce must be pondering such a scenario this morning as he becomes more and more isolated over his claim that Labour's election costings have an $11b hole in them.
So far not a single economist has backed up the Finance Minister - all say the man in charge of the nation's books has got his sums wrong.


Steven Joyce standing by $11.7b 'fiscal hole' claim
(http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/steven-joyce-standing-by-11-7b-fiscal-hole-claim.html)
Labour demands apology over National's 'fiscal hole' claims (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/labour-demands-apology-over-national-s-fiscal-hole-claims.html)
Economist consensus - there's no $11.7b hole in Labour's budget (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/economist-consensus-there-s-no-11-7b-hole-in-labour-s-budget.html)

Now that doesn't mean that Labour is infallible on the numbers, as their forecasts could be flexible. But by saying there's an $11b fiscal hole, Mr Joyce has dug himself into a ditch of his own making.
It's easy to see what led to this - National's biggest hope is to paint Labour as inexperienced spendthrifts who would destroy the admittedly strong economy that National has nurtured these last nine years.
This leads us to what I call the fast-approaching period of peak promise. We are reaching a critical time where the volume, complexity and audaciousness of election promises reach such volume that voters cease to take them seriously.
And now we are ceasing to take the rebuttal or criticism seriously as well. It's hard to believe anything any of them say, as we rightly suspect they aren’t giving us the unvarnished truth.
And sometimes it's our fault. Maybe we just don’t want the truth. If a politician said, "We can't afford what's happening here so we are raising income tax to 50 percent as it’s the only honest way to solve a problem", would you vote for them?
Of course you wouldn't. You'd prefer the one who lied to you and told you it would all be all right, even if you suspected they weren't totally straight up.
It's like bad-boy boyfriends and girlfriends - you know they're up to no good, but so long as you can kid yourself, it's all OK.

BlackPeter
06-09-2017, 09:47 AM
Look JT, we know that you would like to tax people as much as any possible, and so does Labour. Of course - I guess you know much better what to do with people's money than these people do - isn't it? Nanny Labour knows best.

But you don't want just to take from the "Rich" and give to the "Poor", what you really want is to punish the people who perform in our society. How dare they doing better than others?

While the "giving the poor" might sound like a nice touch - it is something which damages the very people you want to help. Issue is - there is a competition for high performers out there in the world - and good teachers, good doctors, successful business people as well as capable engineers and qualified trades people can find a good job everywhere in the world. Taxing them over the top helps you just to get rid of these people - and with them goes the economic success of our country.

Increasing tax rates means higher unemployment and a stuttering economy. Is this really what you want?

jonu
06-09-2017, 09:57 AM
Jacinda has values

Let me make it official. We are at Peak Jacinda. I found myself cringing at the latest clip of her patronising, condescending, touchy, feeliness.

As an aside...Values...remember them? Terrors of the 70s left that morphed/split into the Alliance/Greens if I remember correctly

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 09:59 AM
BP.Assumptions are often wrong; yours nearly always; you are doing exactly as joyce and english do, dirty desperate smearing attempts. You never denied working for crosby/textor; i can understand why just by the way you attempt to manipulate and make things that are false, the norm.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 10:03 AM
Let me make it official. We are at Peak Jacinda. I found myself cringing at the latest clip of her patronising, condescending, touchy, feeliness.

As an aside...Values...remember them? Terrors of the 70s left that morphed/split into the Alliance/Greens if I remember correctly

Its ok to be touchy feel and have values about abortion though , yeah right.yet another tui your way, enjoy:t_up:

I have so much respect for her genuineness and honesty but i guess after two or three terms that idealism may wear off a bit on her too in this brutal arena.

artemis
06-09-2017, 10:08 AM
Personally not betting either way on the outcome on September 23.

But there is a lot of emotion flying around, including on these boards.

We saw what happened in the US when 'our girl lost'. It was not pretty.

Just saying.

jonu
06-09-2017, 10:13 AM
Personally not betting either way on the outcome on September 23.

But there is a lot of emotion flying around, including on these boards.

We saw what happened in the US when 'our girl lost'. It was not pretty.

Just saying.

Good point artemis.

I remember also the extraordinary gnashing of teeth by the left here after the last election. They were so convinced that they had it in the bag and got a rude shock. Maybe Labour will cobble together something with the Greens and Winston, but I can't see it. I really can't see Winston in bed with the Greens.

couta1
06-09-2017, 10:25 AM
Good point artemis.

I remember also the extraordinary gnashing of teeth by the left here after the last election. They were so convinced that they had it in the bag and got a rude shock. Maybe Labour will cobble together something with the Greens and Winston, but I can't see it. I really can't see Winston in bed with the Greens. Agree, Winston and the Greens a highly unlikely scenario.

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 10:32 AM
Agree, Winston and the Greens a highly unlikely scenario.

Anymore unlikely than Winston First and National?

winner69
06-09-2017, 10:33 AM
so little room left ....

jonu
06-09-2017, 10:51 AM
Anymore unlikely than Winston First and National?

Well he has been there before. He shafted Aunty Helen after a 6 week tango to jump into bed with National.

iceman
06-09-2017, 10:57 AM
Anymore unlikely than Winston First and National?

Yes because The Greens may not even make it into Parliament

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 11:05 AM
Well he has been there before. He shafted Aunty Helen after a 6 week tango to jump into bed with National.

That must make him ambisextrous.

winner69
06-09-2017, 11:19 AM
what happens if NZF lose their electorate seat and go below 5% ....now that's an interesting scenario

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 11:28 AM
what happens if NZF lose their electorate seat and go below 5% ....now that's an interesting scenario

Votes would be reallocated, so probably. Labour/ green win.

iceman
06-09-2017, 11:36 AM
what happens if NZF lose their electorate seat and go below 5% ....now that's an interesting scenario

While this is a possibility, it is more likely in my view that The Greens won't get either 5% or an electorate seat. Add that to United Future, TOP, MANA and some other very small players, but all up we could potentially be looking at a significant number to be redistributed.

RTM
06-09-2017, 11:38 AM
Not sure who will win.....leaning towards Jacinda at the moment.
Wonder if this is possible...
If Jacinda wins...would National lend her enough support to govern. With conditions of course.
And if Bill wins....would Labour lend him enough support to govern. With conditions of course.

Imagine the effect of this on the Greens, NZ 1st etc. And might improve the outcome either way.

To fanciful ?

macduffy
06-09-2017, 12:10 PM
Not sure who will win.....leaning towards Jacinda at the moment.
Wonder if this is possible...
If Jacinda wins...would National lend her enough support to govern. With conditions of course.
And if Bill wins....would Labour lend him enough support to govern. With conditions of course.

Imagine the effect of this on the Greens, NZ 1st etc. And might improve the outcome either way.

To fanciful ?

Would be "nice"? But yes, too fanciful.

craic
06-09-2017, 12:15 PM
My greatest image, one that often distracts me, is the image of Jacinda sitting on Winston Peters knee with his hand up the back of her jersey, manipulating her mouth and the only sign that he is using his ventriloquistic skills to actually do the talking is the very slight movement of his Adams Apple. Of course this is impossible because WP can only tolerate the sound of his own voice.

Bjauck
06-09-2017, 12:17 PM
Personally not betting either way on the outcome on September 23.

But there is a lot of emotion flying around, including on these boards.

We saw what happened in the US when 'our girl lost'. It was not pretty.

Just saying. This election does seem to have more rancour than previous recent ones. Luckily the political gap between National and Labour imo is not as great as between Trump and Cinton. Also if Labour gets more votes than National, under our MMP it will get more seats.

BlackPeter
06-09-2017, 12:42 PM
Not sure who will win.....leaning towards Jacinda at the moment.
Wonder if this is possible...
If Jacinda wins...would National lend her enough support to govern. With conditions of course.
And if Bill wins....would Labour lend him enough support to govern. With conditions of course.

Imagine the effect of this on the Greens, NZ 1st etc. And might improve the outcome either way.

To fanciful ?

I guess it would be a sign of political matureness if something like that would work in NZ. Sounds like a "great coalition". However - these agreements between the biggest players always grow the support for the small parties ... you would see them come back with force come next election.

fungus pudding
06-09-2017, 12:56 PM
I guess it would be a sign of political matureness if something like that would work in NZ. Sounds like a "great coalition". However - these agreements between the biggest players always grow the support for the small parties ... you would see them come back with force come next election.

I doubt if we'll see a grand coalition of Labour and National. Neither party would surrender PM or Finance portfolio.

Joshuatree
06-09-2017, 10:44 PM
Joyce is the original Rinse and repeat Cowboy.

From Stuff
Steven Joyce has adopted his tried formula from 2011 and 2014 - accuse Labour of botching its figures.



By comparison with his attempts in 2011 and 2014 the "hole" he claimed to have found in Labour's 2017 plan $11.7b was relatively small.
READ MORE: War of numbers descends into farce (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/policies/5913446/War-of-numbers-descends-into-farce)
His motivation is as clear as crystal: feed the view Labour is incompetent and that National is the only trusted steward of the nation's books.

Labour finance spokesman Grant Robertson won almost universal support for his view there was no "fiscal hole" in his plan.



But it was wrong, as numerous commentators and economists across the spectrum have concluded.
Whether that will backfire on him, or simply be mud from the campaign trail that sticks to Labour, remains to be seen. But he is surprisingly short of champions, beyond his own party.
His principal "error" was to assume that the amount left over for new initiatives at the end of each year, portrayed in Labour's Fiscal Plan, was cumulative.

winner69
07-09-2017, 06:51 AM
I Jacinda would stop saying 'I' and 'my' ......always better if leading a team to say 'We' and 'ours'

Bugger I forgot - thos election is all about Jacinda or Bill - not Labour or National or whoever

dobby41
07-09-2017, 07:02 AM
I Jacinda would stop saying 'I' and 'my' ......always better if leading a team to say 'We' and 'ours'

Bugger I forgot - thos election is all about Jacinda or Bill - not Labour or National or whoever

You're right - it is about the leaders.
Just the same as the others were about Shonkey.
Personality politics. After all, people dismissed Labours chances due to the Little one.

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 07:14 AM
....as eminent economist John Kay says "....all tax systems are encrusted with barnacles, the product of the wheezes of politicians and the power of lobbies. But the results of such approaches to tax reform are usually disappointing." Is it because if a government has the courage to introduce tax reform, the reform is often half-hearted and compromised, full of exemptions. If governments want to be re-elected, they still have to take into account the power of vested interests, especially if the vested interests benefit an influential segment of the electorate.

BlackPeter
07-09-2017, 07:48 AM
You're right - it is about the leaders.
Just the same as the others were about Shonkey.
Personality politics. After all, people dismissed Labours chances due to the Little one.

If that's the case - why would anybody vote for a 37 year old leader without any real experience? She never had a proper job with any responsibilities worthwhile mentioning, and there is no notably achievement in her political career so far. Sure - she was the best candidate Labour could muster for a Leader, but in that particular race the stakes have been extraordinarily low.

I think it is about the parties ... and to be honest, both parties have strengths and weaknesses, but so far I think it makes sense to stick with experience and a philosophy rewarding performance instead of punishing it.

elZorro
07-09-2017, 08:35 AM
If that's the case - why would anybody vote for a 37 year old leader without any real experience? She never had a proper job with any responsibilities worthwhile mentioning, and there is no notably achievement in her political career so far. Sure - she was the best candidate Labour could muster for a Leader, but in that particular race the stakes have been extraordinarily low.

I think it is about the parties ... and to be honest, both parties have strengths and weaknesses, but so far I think it makes sense to stick with experience and a philosophy rewarding performance instead of punishing it.

If you're talking about economic performance, social justice, experience in doing that well, then it's a vote for Labour, correct. National has been a bit of a show, and they've had to leave in place or adopt Labour policies while in office.

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 08:42 AM
Stick with honesty and truth.Labour
Stick with a party playing with a straight bat. Labour.
Stick with labour who really do want to improve
Child poverty
Housing
Health
Drug addiction etc etc etc


Notice how National are suddenly making promises here, fake carrots, fake party, 9 year fakes.Too little too late.Corrupted by power.

Stick with a National party thats lying; playing the wo/man not the ball.No way will i support Dirty low untrustworthy behaviour.
Bill English couldn't say he hadn't lied . But whats worse is not correcting his lies .
Joyce who has taken the trump tactic of repeating something over and over and the sheepies will believe its true. He's underestimated the IQ of Kiwis.

If i support such behaviour I'm supporting lying, deception, dishonesty ,poor ethics and you are putting yourself there too, its that simple. As you make your bed so you lie in it.

iceman
07-09-2017, 08:44 AM
Stick with honesty and truth.Labour
Stick with a party playing with a straight bat. Labour.
Stick with labour who really do want to improve
Child poverty
Housing
Health
Drug addiction etc etc etc


Notice how National are suddenly making promises here, fake carrots, fake party, 9 year fakes.Too little too late.Corrupted by power.

Stick with a National party thats lying; playing the wo/man not the ball.No way will i support Dirty low untrustworthy behaviour.
Bill English couldn't say he hadn't lied . But whats worse is not correcting his lies .
Joyce who has taken the trump tactic of repeating something over and over and the sheepies will believe its true. He's underestimated the IQ of Kiwis.

If i support such behaviour I'm supporting lying, deception, dishonesty ,poor ethics and you are putting yourself there too, its that simple. As you make your bed so you lie in it.

I would love to see some "honesty and truth" from Taxinda on her plans. She won't give any detail to voters on anything. Strange honesty that.

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 09:05 AM
I would love to see some "honesty and truth" from Taxinda on her plans. She won't give any detail to voters on anything. Strange honesty that.

She's certainly keeping it up her sleeve. Suffice to say she's a hard-line socialist. I am concerned about her asset and wealth taxes which she won't elaborate on, but I suspect a return to the bad old days of death duties, gift duties and no doubt means testing of superannuation - or something like the super surtax of a few years back. I think she's a step or two closer to turning us into another Scandinavia, which seemed to be Helen Clarke's dream. But I don't expect honest disclosure.

winner69
07-09-2017, 09:09 AM
I would love to see some "honesty and truth" from Taxinda on her plans. She won't give any detail to voters on anything. Strange honesty that.

she has 'values' though - at least she keeps telling us that as if we are to be impressed

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 09:16 AM
she has 'values' though - at least she keeps telling us that as if we are to be impressed

She also has a vision, and that's the frightening bit.

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 09:25 AM
Values , Vision ,Truth. great attributes for a leader sadly lacking in English after 9 years of fiddling and now throwing fake candy everywhere. Morals what morals, there are none from national in the race to the finish.They are transparently lying and deceiving for all to see. Experience ? What in how to stay there by lying; its sick really sick.

dobby41
07-09-2017, 09:32 AM
I would love to see some "honesty and truth" from Taxinda on her plans. She won't give any detail to voters on anything. Strange honesty that.

Maybe she will say, straight up, that she won't raise GST and then go and do it?
Where have I seen that before I wonder. Wouldn't be National would it?

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 09:36 AM
Maybe she will say, straight up, that she won't raise GST and then go and do it?
Where have I seen that before I wonder. Wouldn't be National would it?

Of course it was National who also omitted to tell us they would lower income taxes to more than compensate. You moaning about that?

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 09:46 AM
I would love to see some "honesty and truth" from Taxinda on her plans. She won't give any detail to voters on anything. Strange honesty that.

taxiceman. The honesty and integrity is doing the right thing and getting the best advice from the best skilled experts with whats best for New Zealanders; she is very transparent about that.You are suspicious, well remember Labour has ethics and morals under her,national don't under bill , thats a fact too and transparent as you you can see by national's appalling win at any cost behaviour; for all to see.

dobby41
07-09-2017, 09:48 AM
Of course it was National who also omitted to tell us they would lower income taxes to more than compensate. You moaning about that?

OK - I stand corrected, lies with a 'but' are OK. Especially if made by the Blue crowd.
By the way - I'm not moaning. I'd like to see some tax reform. Labour started the journey, in part, with GST in the 1st place.

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 09:50 AM
taxiceman. The honesty and integrity is doing the right thing and getting the best advice from the best skilled experts with whats best for New Zealanders; she is very transparent about that.You are suspicious, well remember Labour has ethics and morals under her,national don't under bill , thats a fact too and transparent as you you can see by national's appalling win at any cost behaviour; for all to see.

Doing the best thing is completely subjective. Keeping your policies secret from voters is dishonest.

Joshuatree
07-09-2017, 09:54 AM
You are incorrect in your subjective justifying mind, tricking yourself. A few policies are yet to come fully formed and they will use the best brains to form them. Do it once do it right .You really are fearful about nothing and there is far more of value in life then money ,fp,Get a life
MEASURE TWICE CUT ONCE.

dobby41
07-09-2017, 10:04 AM
Doing the best thing is completely subjective. Keeping your policies secret from voters is dishonest.

So we agree that National was dishonest.

winner69
07-09-2017, 10:10 AM
Labours 'budget' Seems to proposed spending numbers that would be smaller as a share of GDP than at any time over the last 40 odd years except for two years in the last Labour government that proved to be unsustainable (with big increases in spending over the following few years)


No wonder some economic commentators are calling Jacinda the next Ruth Richardson

Different philosophies (though not quite sure what Jacinda really stands for) but Ruth remembered for her 'mother of all budgets'

xafalcon
07-09-2017, 10:18 AM
taxiceman. The honesty and integrity is doing the right thing and getting the best advice from the best skilled experts with whats best for New Zealanders; she is very transparent about that.You are suspicious, well remember Labour has ethics and morals under her,national don't under bill , thats a fact too and transparent as you you can see by national's appalling win at any cost behaviour; for all to see.

Any policy as important as far reaching tax change needs to be put to the people, period. This is the basis of democracy.

If the majority of people agree, there is no problem.

The decision not to go to the people with a proposal smacks of authoritarianism, and clearly indicates a belief that the majority will not agree with the proposal. This is not democracy, is not honest, is not integrity, is not transparent and is simply not the right thing to do.

The tax changes made by National circa 2011 are a red herring. Increasing GST and a corresponding reduction in PAYE. Tax neutral, give or take a few pennies

Life is not fair. There will be those who win, those who loose, those who become wealthy, those who do not, those who are smart, those who are not, those who are male, those who are female. Social equalization does not fix these things, it only shifts the problem/resentment from one group to another.

FYI I support neither of the big parties

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 10:20 AM
Labours 'budget' Seems to proposed spending numbers that would be smaller as a share of GDP than at any time over the last 40 odd years except for two years in the last Labour government that proved to be unsustainable (with big increases in spending over the following few years)


No wonder some economic commentators are calling Jacinda the next Ruth Richardson

Different philosophies (though not quite sure what Jacinda really stands for) but Ruth remembered for her 'mother of all budgets'

Or Arnold Nordmeyer, remembered for the black budget back in my schooldays.

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 11:02 AM
Any policy as important as far reaching tax change needs to be put to the people, period. This is the basis of democracy.

If the majority of people agree, there is no problem. I agree. Good for Labour for suggesting a tax review, although they do seem to be limiting its scope. However, they should be thorough and take their time in the next three years. Any suggestions for reform should be detailed and put to the people prior to the following election.


Life is not fair. There will be those who win, those who loose, those who become wealthy, those who do not, those who are smart, those who are not, those who are male, those who are female. Social equalization does not fix these things, it only shifts the problem/resentment from one group to another.

FYI I support neither of the big parties I guess we can only hope that the government of the day tries to make things fairer (although what is "fair" is constantly evolving.) There will always be those with a vested interest in the status quo remaining who will oppose change, whether the change may improve "general well being", effectiveness and efficiency or not.

winner69
07-09-2017, 11:03 AM
Or Arnold Nordmeyer, remembered for the black budget back in my schooldays.


Nordmeyer was awesome - and real Labour

Jacinda going to be more famous than Michael Savage and Nordmeyer and maybe even our Helen


So we can look forward to Jacinda's first budget - Black? Mother of all? Or another term

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 11:10 AM
I guess we can only hope that the government of the day tries to make things fairer (although what is "fair" is constantly evolving.)

No it's not. It's simply subjective. A regressive tax may be considered fair by some who could logically argue that once you've paid a certain amount you should receive a discounted rate; i.e. the way the world works with most things, and it certainly encourages producers and entrepeneurs. . Many consider our progressive taxes to be fair, while some see it as punishing acheivers, which is a logical argument. A flat tax, where every dollar earned is taxed at the same rate is considered fair by some.
So take your pick but it has everything to do with your own ideals and beliefs, and nothing to do with the definition of fair evolving.

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 12:27 PM
No it's not. It's simply subjective. A regressive tax may be considered fair by some who could logically argue that once you've paid a certain amount you should receive a discounted rate; i.e. the way the world works with most things, and it certainly encourages producers and entrepeneurs. . Many consider our progressive taxes to be fair, while some see it as punishing acheivers, which is a logical argument. A flat tax, where every dollar earned is taxed at the same rate is considered fair by some.
So take your pick but it has everything to do with your own ideals and beliefs, and nothing to do with the definition of fair evolving.

It is both subjective and evolving. Most people have a concept of fairness which has evolved during their own lifetime.

Some people consider that it is fair if "capital profits" should not be subject to tax unlike "income" or purchasing goods and services. Others think that to be fair capital profits should also be subject to tax. Opinions about this and towards many issues change. In times past, many wondered where is the fairness in a tax levied when somebody provided a service for somebody else.

Sgt Pepper
07-09-2017, 12:29 PM
[QUOTE=fungus pudding;682730]No it's not. It's simply subjective. A regressive tax may be considered fair by some who could logically argue that once you've paid a certain amount you should receive a discounted rate; i.e. the way the world works with most things, and it certainly encourages producers and entrepeneurs. .T Many consider our progressive taxes to be fair, while some see it as punishing acheivers, which is a logical argument. A flat tax, where every dollar earned is taxed at the same rate is considered fair by some.
So take your pick but it has everything to do with your own ideals and beliefs, and nothing to do with the definition of fair evolving.[/QUOTEThcuroi

The curious thing about the proposal for a flat tax regime is that over the years, governments lead by people you would assume would be in favour, never implemented them. Both Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher had substantial majorities in their respective legislatures yet never progressed any flat tax initiative. Why do you think that was?

iceman
07-09-2017, 12:41 PM
Good question SgtP. Estonia has been doing very well under their simple flat rate tax system https://taxfoundation.org/estonia-has-most-competitive-tax-system-oecd/

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 12:59 PM
Good question SgtP. Estonia has been doing very well under their simple flat rate tax system https://taxfoundation.org/estonia-has-most-competitive-tax-system-oecd/

Along with 38 other countries.

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 01:03 PM
Good question SgtP. Estonia has been doing very well under their simple flat rate tax system https://taxfoundation.org/estonia-has-most-competitive-tax-system-oecd/ Thanks for the interesting link. Maybe Labour's tax review would canvas the Estonian system. Their flat tax system includes a property tax (on land value only) and a capital gains tax levied at the same rate as its corporation tax and its income tax (21%). Excluding tax on "improvements" to land, could help to encourage building.

iceman
07-09-2017, 01:13 PM
Thanks for the interesting link. Maybe Labour's tax review would canvas the Estonian system. Their flat tax system includes a property tax (on land value only) and a capital gains tax levied at the same rate as its corporation tax and its income tax (21%). Excluding tax on "improvements" to land, could help to encourage building.

Yes it is a very interesting tax system and Estonia is doing very well economically. Meanwhile, Taxinda admitted on radio today that it is possible that the family home will be taxed on capital gains if the owners die for example and relatives or others inherit it ! Not so clear cut really.

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 01:27 PM
Yes it is a very interesting tax system and Estonia is doing very well economically. Meanwhile, Taxinda admitted on radio today that it is possible that the family home will be taxed on capital gains if the owners die for example and relatives or others inherit it ! Not so clear cut really. They had that policy earlier....but then I thought they dismissed it. It is all over the place. At least TOP is upfront in saying that the family home would be taxed. Should they get in, they definitely need to wait a term of office to sort it out and review it properly and put it to the electorate at the following election.

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 01:39 PM
Yes it is a very interesting tax system and Estonia is doing very well economically. Meanwhile, Taxinda admitted on radio today that it is possible that the family home will be taxed on capital gains if the owners die for example and relatives or others inherit it ! Not so clear cut really.

That will be in addition to the chunk they take as death duties, I presume. They really should clarify their intentions. There are many different forms of CGT and asset taxes. To say it will depend on some 'expert' report is nonsense. She knows what she wants and she'll know which experts think along the same lines.

artemis
07-09-2017, 02:53 PM
Tax is one of those subjects that makes most people's eyes glaze over at the best of times. Those with assets are a bit more likely to take an interest, especially business people and Sharetrader posters! Home owners, maybe.

But there are apparently 550,000 renting households in NZ according to the below link, 60% of which get some sort of housing subsidy from the taxpayer. That is a lot of voters who are probably not too bothered about tax.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/96523625/pm-bill-english-says-govt-spends-billions-propping-up-the-private-rental-market

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 04:26 PM
I am guessing that a high percentage of ST posters would be voters. It would be interesting to know what percentage of those tenants would be voters?

That is a hefty amount of subsidy. Does it contribute to property price inflation in a market where supply constraints (for example in Auckland) are a major issue? I imagine landlords would not like that subsidy to diminish...housing subsidy or landlord subsidy?

Anybody who buys goods and services has noticed GST. Whilst CGT may not necessarily affect tenants. Tax cuts could cause some concern with some voters if they think that welfare and services would be cut as a result.

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 04:34 PM
I am guessing that a high percentage of ST posters would be voters. It would be interesting to know what percentage of those tenants would be voters?

That is a hefty amount of subsidy. Does it contribute to property price inflation in a market where supply constraints (for example in Auckland) are a major issue? I imagine landlords would not like that subsidy to diminish...housing subsidy or landlord subsidy?

Anybody who buys goods and services has noticed GST. Whilst CGT may not necessarily affect tenants. Tax cuts could cause some concern with some voters if they think that welfare and services would be cut as a result.

Of course the subsidy boosts rents and prices. Fungus's golden rule: subsidies never help the buyer. They end up in the vendor's pocket.

artemis
07-09-2017, 05:05 PM
Of course the subsidy boosts rents and prices. Fungus's golden rule: subsidies never help the buyer. They end up in the vendor's pocket.

Maybe, maybe not in the case of the Accommodation Supplement. There are two research papers referred to in the literature review linked below. One says no impact of the AS, one says some impact. From the summary in the link-

Findings from the literature review suggest that rents are determined by house prices
in the long run. It would therefore be incorrect to say that a housing supplement such
as the AS drives rent increases or is a determinant of rent increases. However, it is
clear from the evidence that an increase (decrease) in housing supplement is a factor
in increased (decreased) rental prices.



https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/literature-reviews/impact-housing-subsidies-housing/impact-housing-subsidies-housing.pdf

elZorro
07-09-2017, 05:28 PM
New Colmar Poll results out confirm Labour is getting ahead of National, those voters who like to be on the winning side are swapping over, thanks very much.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96621775/national-drops-to-39-in-new-bombshell-poll-labour-remains-ahead

This is great news for lefties, great news for NZ's future. I see Jacinda has some regional employment ideas (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/96590741/jacinda-ardern-unveils-forestry-hub-plans-in-rotorua-visit)about using more local wood in NZ on projects like KiwiBuild, even if Winston thinks we've pinched some of his good policies.

National has been pinching Labour policies for long enough.


But all this feel-good stuff means the likelihood of a Labour/Green/Maori/NZFirst coalition is high. If voter sentiment keeps going the way it is, it'll be Labour/Green.

TV1 News video (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/new-poll-labour-widens-lead-over-national-4-points-in-latest-1-news-colmar-brunton).

blackcap
07-09-2017, 05:33 PM
New Colmar Poll results out confirm Labour is getting ahead of National, those voters who like to be on the winning side are swapping over, thanks very much.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96621775/national-drops-to-39-in-new-bombshell-poll-labour-remains-ahead

This is great news for lefties, great news for NZ's future. I see Jacinda has some regional employment ideas about using more local wood in NZ on projects like KiwiBuild, even if Winston thinks we've pinched some of his good policies.

National has been pinching Labour policies for long enough.

But all this feel-good stuff means the likelihood of a Labour/Green/Maori/NZFirst coalition is high. If voter sentiment keeps going the way it is, it'll be Labour/Green.

Hopefully the Greens will get under 5% and not be representing us in Parliament. But a Labour/NZ first government looks on the cards. ElZorro you will be happy to know that Labour are $1.70 favourites to provide the next Prime minister in NZ. However funnily National are still odds on favourites to have the most seats in Parliament.

elZorro
07-09-2017, 05:38 PM
Hopefully the Greens will get under 5% and not be representing us in Parliament. But a Labour/NZ first government looks on the cards. ElZorro you will be happy to know that Labour are $1.70 favourites to provide the next Prime minister in NZ. However funnily National are still odds on favourites to have the most seats in Parliament.

Not very exciting odds, I can't even get anyone on here to take a bet on National..

I must admit I'm pretty happy with the latest poll. You should have seen the big young crowd Jacinda had at the University of Waikato yesterday. She really is a phenomenon. The younger vote will be a lot bigger this election.

artemis
07-09-2017, 05:42 PM
.... the likelihood of a Labour/Green/Maori/NZFirst coalition is high....

That would definitely be entertaining, or maybe 'interesting times' would be more accurate.

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 05:43 PM
Maybe, maybe not in the case of the Accommodation Supplement. There are two research papers referred to in the literature review linked below. One says no impact of the AS, one says some impact. From the summary in the link-

[I]Findings from the literature review suggest that rents are determined by house prices
in the long run.





And fungus says house prices are influenced by rents.

tim23
07-09-2017, 06:23 PM
Ouch! You might end up in the sharetrader sin bin?
I'll help out. Yes, he's every bit as ignorant as he appears. Nobody could put it on to that degree; never ever anything constructive; just snide, sad, derogatory comments. Big chip on each shoulder I'd say.

fungus pudding
07-09-2017, 06:27 PM
Ouch! You might end up in the sharetrader sin bin?

I have a feeling that if the moderators read through your posts, and replies to others, that's exactly where you would be.

Bjauck
07-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Ouch! You might end up in the sharetrader sin bin? My suggestion would have been to refer the comment to the mods, if you found it offensive, and not to republish it a second time.

elZorro
07-09-2017, 10:38 PM
A link to the streamed Stuff leaders debate held tonight. Most agreed that Jacinda won this one.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96620455/stuff-leaders-debate-jacinda-ardern-wins-with-our-pundits

elZorro
08-09-2017, 06:29 AM
Now RNZ's Poll of Polls shows Labour slightly ahead of National with the party vote, and of course the press are pointing polls out constantly in their news broadcasts. This is a very cheap marketing campaign for the Left, once it kicked off.

Don't forget National had it all its own way for nine years or more - surely the Left had to have its day sooner or later.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338948/labour-a-nose-ahead-of-national-on-the-averages

Based on this new data, pollsters will be able to predict which previously strong National seats could fall to Labour candidates. Both the Hamilton seats are bellwether electorates, for example. I expect a lot of urban NZ will look red on the voting maps come September 23rd.

Note that the four biggest parties usually grab 90% of the vote or more, and as the Greens and NZFirst drop away, it really is looking like a two-horse drag race, as Bill says. Lots of Labour people are thinking about voting tactically for the Greens with their party vote, to make sure they reach the 5% threshold. So far they're well over the line on average.

winner69
08-09-2017, 07:21 AM
EZ - Your friend Winston says polls are 'invariably wrong'

winner69
08-09-2017, 07:22 AM
Have the Greens pulled out of this election

Just like the Warriors they seem to have given up and not even trying

Whose their captain again

blackcap
08-09-2017, 07:36 AM
Labour now a $1.59 odds on to provide the next PM. National at $2.66. Market moving very quickly here.

iceman
08-09-2017, 08:07 AM
Have the Greens pulled out of this election

Just like the Warriors they seem to have given up and not even trying

Whose their captain again

I can confirm they are still in the race. Saw 6 of them waving and yelling as I drove my wife to work this morning. Captain ? Umm. Fitzsimmons or something like that isn't it ?

winner69
08-09-2017, 08:17 AM
I can confirm they are still in the race. Saw 6 of them waving and yelling as I drove my wife to work this morning. Captain ? Umm. Fitzsimmons or something like that isn't it ?

Aren't they trying to win an electorate seat down your way?

Maybe the 6 you saw are all they have left

iceman
08-09-2017, 08:25 AM
Aren't they trying to win an electorate seat down your way?

Maybe the 6 you saw are all they have left

Yes they are trying to win the electorate down here with a local Councillor running hard. Don't think he has a chance though.

BlackPeter
08-09-2017, 08:30 AM
A link to the streamed Stuff leaders debate held tonight. Most agreed that Jacinda won this one.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96620455/stuff-leaders-debate-jacinda-ardern-wins-with-our-pundits

Agreed - Jacinda might have the better qualities to win the race - and her advantage is that she can talk about feelings while Bill has to defend numbers. The unfortunate thing is however that the qualities which bring a politician into the highest office are different than the qualities they need to be a good PM. Jacinda is absolutely untested as leader and so far achieved little in the political domain. Might not be an issue, but could - just look at how well it worked for the Americans and the Brits to follow the more popular plied piper ...

Is the bigger smile after the elections really the most important attribute of our PM or would political competency matter?

And just wondering - how come that we see these days hardly any other Labour politician than Jacinda on the telly and in meetings?

Is the leader doing it afterwards all alone or would we need to see as well the team behind the leader? Is Labour that ashamed of the rest of their politicians or do they just want to hide the ugly mob until after the elections? In our local "meet the candidates" the Labour candidate (I checked on the web, there is one, even if he is in hiding) typically not even bother to show up.

So - you might be right - Jacinda seems to have at this stage the better odds. Does not mean that she would be the better PM.

BlackPeter
08-09-2017, 08:33 AM
Have the Greens pulled out of this election

Just like the Warriors they seem to have given up and not even trying

Whose their captain again

I think they just realised that they are redundant. There is already another left wing party with some green policies thrown in around - and their differentiator of defrauding the benefit system was not that popular after all ...

winner69
08-09-2017, 08:34 AM
Yes they are trying to win the electorate down here with a local Councillor running hard. Don't think he has a chance though.

Sad whats happened to the greens

They had their chance over the last year or so to get to be a major player and on par or better than Labour but they have completely blown that opportunity

Not even on my maybe list now

iceman
08-09-2017, 08:38 AM
And just wondering - how come that we see these days hardly any other Labour politician than Jacinda on the telly and in meetings?

.

I think it is obvious. Too many discrepancies. Nobody knows what their policies are so they are betting on Taxinda's smile alone getting them across the line.

artemis
08-09-2017, 08:40 AM
..... Jacinda seems to have at this stage the better odds. Does not mean that she would be the better PM.

Two words. Trudeau. Macron.

winner69
08-09-2017, 08:42 AM
I think it is obvious. Too many discrepancies. Nobody knows what their policies are so they are betting on Taxinda's smile alone getting them across the line.


...and it is all about 'I' and 'my' rather than Labour

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 08:49 AM
Agreed - Jacinda might have the better qualities to win the race - and her advantage is that she can talk about feelings while Bill has to defend numbers. The unfortunate thing is however that the qualities which bring a politician into the highest office are different than the qualities they need to be a good PM. Jacinda is absolutely untested as leader and so far achieved little in the political domain. Might not be an issue, but could - just look at how well it worked for the Americans and the Brits to follow the more popular plied piper ...

Is the bigger smile after the elections really the most important attribute of our PM or would political competency matter?

And just wondering - how come that we see these days hardly any other Labour politician than Jacinda on the telly and in meetings?

Is the leader doing it afterwards all alone or would we need to see as well the team behind the leader? Is Labour that ashamed of the rest of their politicians or do they just want to hide the ugly mob until after the elections? In our local "meet the candidates" the Labour candidate (I checked on the web, there is one, even if he is in hiding) typically not even bother to show up.

So - you might be right - Jacinda seems to have at this stage the better odds. Does not mean that she would be the better PM.

Yes, she has a better chance by looks of things, unless the hoi polloi wake up to the fact that the cancelled taxcuts would pay for heaps of doctor's visits, and the reality hits home that lunch is never free. It's all reminiscent of when I was a little kid and my folks would give us some money so we could buy them a Christmas present.

artemis
08-09-2017, 09:24 AM
And fungus says house prices are influenced by rents.

See the Rent Ratio stats in the below link. It is median house price divided by median 3 brm annual rent. So what property investors call gross rent. They are falling. Doesn't show median house price trends, though these are reported elsewhere on the site and are falling in some locations very recently.

I agree there is some influence between rents and house prices, but suggest other factors are more important though there will be some complex interplay going on so hard to tell. Unlike commercial prices where rent is key.


https://www.interest.co.nz/property/rent-ratio

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 10:00 AM
It's all reminiscent of when I was a little kid and my folks would give us some money so we could buy them a Christmas present.

Thank you for sharing this; i can understand where your'e at now. Hey but its never too late to have good childhood. Embrace the future, change is good and necessary, no fear, growth and unfolding.

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 10:22 AM
Thank you for sharing this; i can understand where your'e at now. Hey but its never too late to have good childhood. Embrace the future, change is good and necessary, no fear, growth and unfolding.
But most of us grow up and are able to spend our own money, rather than pay it to the govt. and in return receive subsidised fees when we go to the doctor. The plumber, the sparky, etc who spends a fortune setting up in business after a lengthy apprenticeship will hardly be happy paying even more tax so his accountant can go to university and eventually charge said plumber or sparky a high fee for the benefit of the wisdom they have generously bestowed on him.

Bjauck
08-09-2017, 01:29 PM
without needing a govt. to take our earnings and

But most of us grow up and are able to spend our own money, rather than pay it to the govt. and in return receive subsidised fees when we go to the doctor. The plumber, the sparky, etc who spends a fortune setting up in business after a lengthy apprenticeship will hardly be happy paying even more tax so his accountant can go to university and eventually charge said plumber or sparky a high fee for the benefit of the wisdom they have generously bestowed on him. Plumbers and sparkies need tertiary training too...its not just university courses covered by the Labour policy.

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 01:47 PM
Plumbers and sparkies need tertiary training too...its not just university courses covered by the Labour policy.

Then there's carpet layers, labourers, shop assistants, scaffolders and heaps of others who receive no tertiary training and earn a fraction of a professional wage. The amount tertiary students contribute is a small fraction of the costs. Why not free tools for tradies?

dobby41
08-09-2017, 01:51 PM
Then there's carpet layers, labourers, shop assistants, scaffolders and heaps of others who receive no tertiary training and earn a fraction of a professional wage. The amount tertiary students contribute is a small fraction of the costs. Why not free tools for tradies?

What's the point in this?
I've lost track.

Investor
08-09-2017, 01:56 PM
But most of us grow up and are able to spend our own money, rather than pay it to the govt. and in return receive subsidised fees when we go to the doctor. The plumber, the sparky, etc who spends a fortune setting up in business after a lengthy apprenticeship will hardly be happy paying even more tax so his accountant can go to university and eventually charge said plumber or sparky a high fee for the benefit of the wisdom they have generously bestowed on him.

So you have a problem with people charging a fee for providing services?

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 01:57 PM
So you have a problem with people charging a fee for providing services?

Not at all.

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 02:02 PM
What's the point in this?
I've lost track.

Not much point at all. Just a follow up on my query why professional workers who train for a career in a highly paid field should get free training. They only ever had to pay a small contribution to their education. It seems to fly in the face of Taxcinda's view of an egalitarian society.

artemis
08-09-2017, 02:35 PM
Then there's carpet layers, labourers, shop assistants, scaffolders and heaps of others who receive no tertiary training and earn a fraction of a professional wage. The amount tertiary students contribute is a small fraction of the costs. Why not free tools for tradies?

Exactly right. The policy, if it can be called that, requires (cliche alert) hard working Kiwis struggling to put food on the table to pay for future high earners to be educated. Mind you, some of those that get free tertiary education will end up on the dole or in McJobs as not many vacancies for media studies graduates.

dobby41
08-09-2017, 02:58 PM
Exactly right. The policy, if it can be called that, requires (cliche alert) hard working Kiwis struggling to put food on the table to pay for future high earners to be educated. Mind you, some of those that get free tertiary education will end up on the dole or in McJobs as not many vacancies for media studies graduates.

50% of hard working Kiwis pay no net tax (with WFF etc) so wouldn't pay anything to this either.

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 03:53 PM
50% of hard working Kiwis pay no net tax (with WFF etc) so wouldn't pay anything to this either.

There are heaps of bods paying loads of tax who could never look at the incomes of the quacks, the beancounters or the leagle eagles. They'd rather spend their $$$$$ on their own kids.

Bjauck
08-09-2017, 04:09 PM
Then there's carpet layers, labourers, shop assistants, scaffolders and heaps of others who receive no tertiary training and earn a fraction of a professional wage. The amount tertiary students contribute is a small fraction of the costs. Why not free tools for tradies? Well those other occupations also involve training and courses. If only one year post secondary eduction is covered by the Labour policy, then a tradies course may have a greater percentage covered by the policy.

I am guessing people in those occupations may also support an Estonian-style flat tax regime that would treat capital gains the same as income.

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 04:30 PM
Well those other occupations also involve training and courses. If only one year post secondary eduction is covered by the Labour policy, then a tradies course may have a greater percentage covered by the policy.

I am guessing people in those occupations may also support an Estonian-style flat tax regime that would treat capital gains the same as income.
Which is the only way to treat it to avoid the line drawing between investors and traders, of course it still needs a repatriation clause to be sensible.

elZorro
08-09-2017, 08:29 PM
Which is the only way to treat it to avoid the line drawing between investors and traders, of course it still needs a repatriation clause to be sensible.

Not the repatriation clause idea again.. the CGT you suggest where you don't have to pay any CGT.

fungus pudding
08-09-2017, 08:41 PM
Not the repatriation clause idea again.. the CGT you suggest where you don't have to pay any CGT.

Not so. Most CGT models with a repat clause have a time limit of 1 year.

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 09:17 PM
Health: Is the Govt misleading Kiwis over its elective surgery target? (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/07/is-the-government-misleading-kiwis-over-its-elective-surgery-target.html)

Joshuatree
08-09-2017, 09:32 PM
Jacinda says Bill raised tax 18 times during his period in Government.

Int the fact checkers didn't check this one so I'm sure Jacinda is correct. Pot calling the kettle black, esp after nationals spectacular own goal in the last few days.

"The National Government was handed a strong economic foundation by the prior Labour government. Helen Clark produced nine budget surpluses" then bill raised tax 18 times!!!!

iceman
09-09-2017, 05:31 AM
Not so. Most CGT models with a repat clause have a time limit of 1 year.

Ii would be mad not to have it in any CGT introduced in NZ. Would stifle growth and investment far too much.

artemis
09-09-2017, 05:47 AM
Question. If Labour does not end up leading the next government, will they still set up an expert tax working group to firm up tax policy going into the 2020 election? If not, why not?

minimoke
09-09-2017, 06:56 AM
Question. If Labour does not end up leading the next government, will they still set up an expert tax working group to firm up tax policy going into the 2020 election? If not, why not?
I don't know how they will find an expert tax working group. The evidence shows they struggle to find a decent leader.

artemis
09-09-2017, 07:09 AM
Joyce is the original Rinse and repeat Cowboy......
... His motivation is as clear as crystal: feed the view Labour is incompetent and that National is the only trusted steward of the nation's books.

....
But it was wrong, as numerous commentators and economists across the spectrum have concluded.
Whether that will backfire on him, or simply be mud from the campaign trail that sticks to Labour, remains to be seen. But he is surprisingly short of champions, beyond his own party.
His principal "error" was to assume that the amount left over for new initiatives at the end of each year, portrayed in Labour's Fiscal Plan, was cumulative.

So you don't agree with Mr Roughan's opinion in the Herald this morning?

The hole Steven Joyce found in Labour's fiscal plan this week is important. The media were outraged that he calmly stood his ground against a consensus of their own commentators but he made a point. It seems to be accepted that Labour has made no provision for unforeseen costs outside its big items of education, health and welfare in two and three years time. It was not encouraging to hear Robertson taking refuge behind his Berl consultants.

winner69
09-09-2017, 07:33 AM
I don't know how they will find an expert tax working group. The evidence shows they struggle to find a decent leader.

A tax reform by committee - ouch

It would be like ElZorro chairing a group of such illuminiaries like bjauck, Artemis, BlackPeter etc etc with fungus as an independent expert consultant.

elZorro
09-09-2017, 07:53 AM
A tax reform by committee - ouch

It would be like ElZorro chairing a group of such illuminiaries like bjauck, Artemis, BlackPeter etc etc with fungus as an independent expert consultant.

I'm not sure it would be very enjoyable, W69. But I just had a look, the last time Labour was talking about a CGT, the rate was just 15% on the gain portion, it wasn't treated like straight income at all. And neither should it be.

I see the benefits of a CGT being a revision of the thought process in NZ. We could be more productive in NZ if we invested more in businesses, whether existing or startups. We shouldn't be putting most of our investment efforts into rental housing or commercial leasing, both of which don't contribute much to productivity or innovation.

Duncan Garner, usually pretty keen on National, has called the latest efforts by National, part of their death rattle.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96628694/duncan-garner-shameless-steven-joyce-digs-himself-a-massive-hole-to-lie-in

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 08:06 AM
I'm not sure it would be very enjoyable, W69. But I just had a look, the last time Labour was talking about a CGT, the rate was just 15% on the gain portion, it wasn't treated like straight income at all. And neither should it be.



Oh yes it should. If they are calling it income - then tax it as such. The main reason for applying marginal rates is to avoid the difficult argument present in our current system - differentiating between a developer, trader, and an investor. Just total the profit along with other earnings. Nothing wrong with cgt if properly designed - everything if it is not.
With your belief in a progressive tax system surely you won't see much wrong with someone on $300k per annum paying 33%, or with a recently made redundant workerpaying 10.5% when he flogs off his old pair of flats to survive. Of course a flat tax of 15% on all income would be ideal, but that's another story.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 12:47 PM
elzorro "Duncan Garner, usually pretty keen on National, has called the latest efforts by National, part of their death rattle."

Simply , would you vote for a party that is prepared to lie to get back in.
Would you vote for a party of integrity that is not going to stoop or deceive.
Which action do you align your own moral compass with?

winner69
09-09-2017, 02:53 PM
Suppose anything worth a try

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/gareth-morgan-and-top-want-a-dirty-deal-in-h-riu.html

But voting starts Monday

BlackPeter
09-09-2017, 02:57 PM
elzorro "Duncan Garner, usually pretty keen on National, has called the latest efforts by National, part of their death rattle."

Simply , would you vote for a party that is prepared to lie to get back in.
Would you vote for a party of integrity that is not going to stoop or deceive.
Which action do you align your own moral compass with?




Ouch ... it is dangerous to throw with stones if you are sitting in a glass house.

JT, I can't figure out whether you really have such a short memory, whether you think that voters have such a short memory, whether you are happy to lie at others or whether you intentionally want to damage Labour's case? Which one is it?

Labour and the Left are clearly not on moral high ground: Breaking NZ law and exploiting slave labour, committing (the Green appendix) and condoning benefit fraud, condoning to abuse human rights (guilty until proven innocent), abusing the other side (Kelvin), traitor to the indigenous case (foreshore and seabed), supporting arrogant and power hungry PM"s (Clark). Labour was harbouring various crooks - law breakers of the worst kind and some of them went for years behind bars. Who knows what's still lingering under the rocks? They are dirty politicians like anybody else. No difference, they just want more of our money to pay their election bribes and they are not even woman enough to admit that.

elZorro
09-09-2017, 04:36 PM
Suppose anything worth a try

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/gareth-morgan-and-top-want-a-dirty-deal-in-h-riu.html

But voting starts Monday

Would those voters be that gullible? Maybe he'll have to try again next election.

Rod Oram hasn't given up on having a say either, here he is with some very good freshwater background and data.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/02/45811/rod-oram-a-trickle-of-problems-for-a-big-problem

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 04:42 PM
Would those voters be that gullible? Maybe he'll have to try again next election.

Rod Oram hasn't given up on having a say either, here he is with some very good freshwater background and data.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/02/45811/rod-oram-a-trickle-of-problems-for-a-big-problem

A very sad and negative man. Could compete with Twyford, David Parker or Greg O'connor for pessimist of the year title.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 04:56 PM
BP I see which side of the moral compass you are on. I haven't seen a person throw mud on themselves like this :confused: sa la vie. Have you not watched anything ,or seen which side is being below the line in truth.Course you have.

Honesty, Integrity truth is what I'm supporting and Jacinda Arderns labour party are fighting a fair fight.
National are lying and i believe this single incident this week ;a hole Joyce has created and backed by english and bennett has lost the election for them and deservedly so. They are sepia.
As i said earlier one thing worse then a lie is NOT correcting it

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 05:12 PM
Would those voters be that gullible? Maybe he'll have to try again next election.

Rod Oram hasn't given up on having a say either, here he is with some very good freshwater background and data.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/02/45811/rod-oram-a-trickle-of-problems-for-a-big-problem

A brilliant article with all the facts and details laid out. Its a must read for anyone int in water ,pollution and our environment.I could put so many quotes on here, but heres the last damming lines of truth for now.

"But we won’t achieve any of that as a country while the two key players are dictating the agenda:


The agriculture sector, which ranks ‘Implementing water costing mechanisms’ as its 37th priority, and ‘Accelerating actions to address climate change obligations’ as its 48th priority in this year’s KPMG Agribusiness Agenda.
The National-led government, which takes from the agricultural sector its cue on these environmental issues critical to New Zealand’s well-being."

minimoke
09-09-2017, 05:27 PM
A brilliant article with all the facts and details laid out.



Sorry, I tried. But fell at the first paragraph which said "Businesses must start paying for the water they use, 70 percent of the respondents said in a recent New Zealand Herald poll". Who takes the Herald seriously?

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 05:48 PM
Sorry, I tried. But fell at the first paragraph which said "Businesses must start paying for the water they use, 70 percent of the respondents said in a recent New Zealand Herald poll". Who takes the Herald seriously?


If you are an insomniac there could be no better remedy than attending one of Rod Oram's public speeches. The last time I went to one it had me wondering whether I would fall asleep first or Oram would beat me to it, calling for a pillow halfway through his address. Hard to say whether be bores his audience more than he bores himself.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 07:32 PM
Just because he makes sense and you don't like the truth

"However, we are spectacular leaders in the OECD in other respects. For example our agricultural use of water grew by nearly 80% in the decade to the early 2000s, reflecting a surge in irrigation. Since then the area under irrigation has increased by a further 50%. In contrast, the Netherlands achieved a big reduction in water use across its diverse agricultural sector, which includes dairy."

fungus pudding
09-09-2017, 07:50 PM
Just because he makes sense and you don't like the truth

"However, we are spectacular leaders in the OECD in other respects. For example our agricultural use of water grew by nearly 80% in the decade to the early 2000s, reflecting a surge in irrigation. Since then the area under irrigation has increased by a further 50%. In contrast, the Netherlands achieved a big reduction in water use across its diverse agricultural sector, which includes dairy."


Who are you replying to, and who is it about? I doubt if anyone here is a mind reader.

tim23
09-09-2017, 08:14 PM
Clearly Joshuatree was replying to you Gus after all you've included their quote. It does seem if someones opinion doesn't suit yours Gus you resort to personal slurs - I should know you've had a go at me and its just poor form on your part Gus.
Who are you replying to, and who is it about? I doubt if anyone here is a mind reader.

777
09-09-2017, 08:28 PM
Clearly Joshuatree was replying to you Gus after all you've included their quote. It does seem if someones opinion doesn't suit yours Gus you resort to personal slurs - I should know you've had a go at me and its just poor form on your part Gus.

And you and JT are so polite.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 08:32 PM
Thanks tim.Full of facts this excellent article by Rod Oram finds National wanting, yet again

"An immoral under-investment
Even when our system is in place, it will still be 2040, the National-led government estimates, before its objectives are fully met. The cost to the country of doing so will be $2bn, equal to $90m a year, or a mere 0.034% of current GDP. That is an immoral under-investment in our environment."

tim23
09-09-2017, 08:34 PM
I was pretty sure you would come to Gus's rescue - do you guys always need a wingman? Its hard work being left leaning on this site but its been good fun in the last few weeks.
And you and JT are so polite.

777
09-09-2017, 08:46 PM
I was pretty sure you would come to Gus's rescue - do you guys always need a wingman? Its hard work being left leaning on this site but its been good fun in the last few weeks.

And you guys are not a gang?

I admire FP, along with a few others, for bothering to keep challenging the posts you guys keep putting up.

777
09-09-2017, 08:52 PM
Have look at Percy's post number 5511 for more money being promised by Labour.

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?5009-Summerset-Group-IPO/page368

I hope they are able to keep up with the totalling it all up. There must be a limit somewhere.

Joshuatree
09-09-2017, 08:58 PM
Keep warm in winter. a lot of oldies try to with hot water bottles as they can't afford the heating.Good stuff. Im seeing national throwing a lot more around atm, tainted desperate carrots imo acting like they are left and right but are really all over the place.

Bjauck
09-09-2017, 09:54 PM
Sorry, I tried. But fell at the first paragraph which said "Businesses must start paying for the water they use, 70 percent of the respondents said in a recent New Zealand Herald poll". Who takes the Herald seriously? No, I treat polls with caution. If it was a poll on their web site, then I think it is infotainment/click bait appealing to readers who are attracted by the headline, which could appeal to either left or right-wingers depending on how the headline was framed. If it was a poll conducted in conjunction with a reputable pollster, I would trust it a bit more. There again the questions can be slewed/leading.

minimoke
09-09-2017, 11:08 PM
Keep warm in winter. a lot of oldies try to with hot water bottles as they can't afford the heating.Good stuff. .
Probably because they couldn't save enough of their own income when Labour was in Govt

minimoke
09-09-2017, 11:10 PM
No, I treat polls with caution. If it was a poll on their web site, then I think it is infotainment/click bait appealing to readers who are attracted by the headline, which could appeal to either left or right-wingers depending on how the headline was framed. If it was a poll conducted in conjunction with a reputable pollster, I would trust it a bit more. There again the questions can be slewed/leading.
You are missing the point. Rod Oram leads by citing a Herald poll. Anything after that is bound to be on shaky ground

fungus pudding
10-09-2017, 09:37 AM
National's silliest ever policy.

They want to increase the price of houses.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96686058/live-housing-climate-and-labours-100day-plan

The subsidy, lke all subsidies, will end up in the vendors' pockets. So silly you'd almost think Labour had come up with it.

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 09:47 AM
In a nutshell

But it was the Labour leader who had the last word.“It is a decision between drift, which is what we’ve been doing for the last nine years...or for finally deciding to do things differently and take action.
“We can do it together, we will do it together, so let’s do this.” Jacinda

BlackPeter
10-09-2017, 09:49 AM
National's silliest ever policy.

They want to increase the price of houses.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96686058/live-housing-climate-and-labours-100day-plan

The subsidy, lke all subsidies, will end up in the vendors' pockets. So silly you'd almost think Labour had come up with it.

Agreed - the lolly scramble is full on. Only party not promising to spend more of our money seems to be ACT.

Investor
10-09-2017, 09:52 AM
In a nutshell

But it was the Labour leader who had the last word.“It is a decision between drift, which is what we’ve been doing for the last nine years...or for finally deciding to do things differently and take action.
“We can do it together, we will do it together, so let’s do this.” Jacinda

This is amusing

minimoke
10-09-2017, 09:54 AM
National's silliest ever policy.

They want to increase the price of houses.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96686058/live-housing-climate-and-labours-100day-plan

The subsidy, lke all subsidies, will end up in the vendors' pockets. So silly you'd almost think Labour had come up with it.
Madness!. Increase demand = increased price.

And we want to end poverty. OCR at 1.75%. Treasury anticipating gradual rise to 4.2% by June 2020. That's more than double. Sounds like a path to poverty for highly geared new affordable home owners.

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 09:54 AM
Anything else you'd like to add Investor or are you just easily entertained or becalmed somewhere:)?

fungus pudding
10-09-2017, 11:11 AM
Agreed - the lolly scramble is full on. Only party not promising to spend more of our money seems to be ACT.

Act have always come up with excellent policies, but could be a risky vote. I'm certainly concerned about that ridiculous policy from National, but as always will use my vote against the party that will do the most harm, which is Labour. So I'm tossing up between National and Act.
Seymour certainly came across well on Q+A this morning - as did Marama Fox, but can't vote for Maori party because they would prefer to go into coalition with Labour. Same with United Future's Damien Light.

minimoke
10-09-2017, 02:46 PM
Act have always come up with excellent policies, but could be a risky vote..
Or maybe not a risky vote. The more votes they get the more seats they will get which will put them in a stronger position next election. If National are dog tucker then an ACT vote makes sense.

fungus pudding
10-09-2017, 03:15 PM
Or maybe not a risky vote. The more votes they get the more seats they will get which will put them in a stronger position next election. If National are dog tucker then an ACT vote makes sense.

As long as they get up to a second or third candidate elected. Think I'll do that. I'm appalled by Nationals home start ideas. They know the consequences. I doubt if Labour realise the consequences of their latest dopey announcement on housing. Too silly for words.

minimoke
10-09-2017, 04:41 PM
As long as they get up to a second or third candidate elected. Think I'll do that. I'm appalled by Nationals home start ideas. They know the consequences. I doubt if Labour realise the consequences of their latest dopey announcement on housing. Too silly for words.
I was also very disappointed with Paual Bennets announcement that they would be removing a few more human rights from some people. I'm no fan of gangs - but I am a bigger fan of due legal process and basic rights

tim23
10-09-2017, 05:50 PM
I agree thought it was a bit poor especially from a poacher turned gamekeeper - Paula Benefit!
I was also very disappointed with Paual Bennets announcement that they would be removing a few more human rights from some people. I'm no fan of gangs - but I am a bigger fan of due legal process and basic rights

jonu
10-09-2017, 06:05 PM
I agree thought it was a bit poor especially from a poacher turned gamekeeper - Paula Benefit!

Labour stereotyping solo-mum beneficiaries now Tim?

tim23
10-09-2017, 06:15 PM
Not at all - just saying it how it is.
Labour stereotyping solo-mum beneficiaries now Tim?

Joshuatree
10-09-2017, 10:21 PM
No, Bennett has turned on the very people from where she came from. A very questionable history and a loose unit imo ; does any one honestly think she is deputy pm material; a backbencher at best imo; a liability to national; note her most recent stuffup.

winner69
11-09-2017, 07:25 AM
Off to vote today - mainly to avoid being swept away by the tsunami of young voters in red closer to the day

Hmm - who will get the ticks

fungus pudding
11-09-2017, 07:45 AM
Off to vote today - mainly to avoid being swept away by the tsunami of young voters in red closer to the day

Hmm - who will get the ticks

Well Labour appear to have put themselves out of the race. Taxcinda sticking to her non disclosure of tax policy, so that drops Winston out as a coalition partner. Going to make it difficult to hit 50%. Especially as it will likely raise Winston's prospects of gettting over 10%
Keep that in mind when tick tick ticking.

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 08:46 AM
taxridefungustaxter if you support lies and deceit vote national. a party with No DETAIL on how to build 30,000 houses year when it can only achieve 7200. Check out the number of houses in Auckland under $600,000 tataxtaxfungus for first home buyers hardly any for first home buyers . Have you got a clock that goes tax,taxtax 60 times a minute.

winner69
11-09-2017, 08:48 AM
taxridefungustaxter if you support lies and deceit vote national. a party with No DETAIL on how to build 30,000 houses year when it can only achieve 7200. Check out the number of houses in Auckland under $600,000 tataxtaxfungus for first home buyers hardly any for first home buyers . Have you got a clock that goes tax,taxtax 60 times a minute.

JT - well hows Jacinda going to build all her affordable / social houses ...doesn't seem to have told me that yet

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 08:54 AM
I agree but don't tell me its JUST labour who haven't provided details and plans. I believe ,going on her integrity that they will get there or close to it.National have lost integrity down a hole for just one example.

minimoke
11-09-2017, 09:12 AM
I agree but don't tell me its JUST labour who haven't provided details and plans. I believe ,going on her integrity that they will get there or close to it.National have lost integrity down a hole for just one example.you cant raise her integrity. She hasn't had a decent job in parliament yet to test her.

Her most challenging role was shadow min of justice and im blowed if i can remember what impact she had there.

She was only in parliament because of list - she couldn't even win a seat until gifted safe mt albert in 2017.

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 09:16 AM
The destruction of health under bill english.So many details and facts, its shocking, leading right up unto todays negative effects. and ahead
Bill English: The Forgotten History (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/08/bill-english-the-forgotten-history/)

English’s response to anger over cuts was to insist that taxpayers couldn’t keep “feeding the monster,” and that if hospitals couldn’t reduce their deficits fast enough, they would have to be restructured or have “someone else” run some of their services.55 When Kirton [pictured left] publicly released information showing layoffs, amalgamation and closed services were planned for five North Island CHEs, English complained that it showed “total disregard for the democratic procedures of Parliament and Cabinet,” and claimed it was irrelevant, months-old advice. Kirton called that “a complete lie.”56
Glenda Alexander, then an organiser for the New Zealand Nurses Organisation and now an industrial advisor with the union, believes the health sector has never recovered from the cuts and layoffs under English and his predecessors. Nurses left the country, became educators or even real estate agents, and it became harder to recruit new nurses. The net effect was to drain the health sector of its organisational intelligence.
“We were predicting in the 1990s that we were going to suffer by 2020 a significant shortage of health professionals,” she says. “It’s no comfort to be proven right.



The Health Gravy Train
While English demanded ongoing cuts and layoffs, the health sector transformed into a bottomless hole for money — so long as you were a bureaucrat. The extravagant waste of the health care bureaucracy contrasted with the austerity imposed everywhere else.
English took a $24,353 trip to Calcutta to attend Mother Teresa’s funeral.57 A new health agency paid a PR firm $18,750 a month despite employing 13 full-time communications staff.58 The number of bureaucrats more than doubled between 1993 and the end of 1997, even as health workers lost jobs, reaching a ratio of one manager or administrator for every five medical staff by March 1998.59
English claimed this was justified by greater community consultation.60 Yet that claim was undermined when later, one fellow minister and others were surprised to find out a hospital in his electorate was being closed down.61
It wasn’t just the number of bureaucrats — it was their price. Personnel costs at the HFA nearly doubled to $30 million between 1994 and 1997.62 Twelve Health Funding Authority (HFA) managers had salaries over $120,000.63 The debt-ridden Capital Coast Health paid five consultants, some part-time, close to $300,000 for less than five months work, while its chief executive at one point received a salary of nearly $500,000, which the Dominion called “preposterous.”64 Absurdly, its own executive chairman was paid consultant’s fees for advising on its restructuring, receiving nearly $200,000 in fees that had been personally set by English.65 (By contrast, as prime minister, Jenny Shipley received $199,000 a year).66 By 1998, the cost of running the Health Department had quadrupled since 1992 to $105 million.67
English said he was fine with this.68 Yet he also argued against giving health workers a 1 percent pay rise, calling them “inflated pay packets,”69 and insisted that nurses’ pay rises be fiscally neutral.70

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 09:29 AM
[QUOTE=minimoke;683398]you cant raise her integrity. She hasn't had a decent job in parliament yet to test her.

"Her most challenging role was shadow min of justice and im blowed if i can remember what impact she had there".mm


She has all the honesty and integrity above and beyond any politican i can remember (in recent history)until she doesn't. No way can she maintain 100% in the gladiatorial sport of politics , but hey if she hangs in anywhere near helen clark thats way above the bar which national are currently standing on , pressing into the ground..

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 10:50 AM
From Hoops post on Oceania
Rob Campbell interview on the possiblity of a Labour led Government (8 minute video) (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11920633)

Productivity and Inequality two big issues
"Campbell said the Greens had improved their standing in the business community, removing the concern about a Labour/Green coalition.
"The element of fear that was in the business community about a Labour/Green Government, I think, is well gone," he said.
"Businesses that are good businesses will still be able to do well under everything I've seen from the Labour party."
He said issues could arise with tax complexity under Labour, but the business community also faces problems under National led Governments.
"Business doesn't necessarily do better under National led Governments," he said.
Productivity was the biggest issue facing the business community in the country and growth was nominal without it, Campbell said.
Campbell said the current Government had provided economic stability but a lack of growth.
"There is an increasing recognition among the business community and the wider community that things have got a little stale," he said.
"If I can use a word from a previous National Prime Minister, maybe we need to be a bit more aspirational."

winner69
11-09-2017, 11:25 AM
God sends messages in funny ways

This young guy who for all the money in the world you would have stereotyped as a Green supporter puts some election propaganda in the mail box.

Finished mowing and had a look to see what they were touting and goodness gracious I'm greeted with a smiling Jacinda and a stately looking Winston

Yes, God telling me next Governmnent is a Labour / NZ First coalition ....just maybe







Should stereotype the young should I

Baa_Baa
11-09-2017, 11:30 AM
God sends messages in funny ways

This young guy who for all the money in the world you would have stereotyped as a Green supporter puts some election propaganda in the mail box.

Finished mowing and had a look to see what they were touting and goodness gracious I'm greeted with a smiling Jacinda and a stately looking Winston

Yes, God telling me next Governmnent is a Labour / NZ First coalition ....just maybe







Should stereotype the young should I

You saying the delivery boy was God, which God? Can't have been a God, God's are politically agnostic, so must have been just a delivery boy eh? Ya never know though, delivery boys move in mysterious ways, or so your saying.

fungus pudding
11-09-2017, 11:31 AM
God sends messages in funny ways

This young guy who for all the money in the world you would have stereotyped as a Green supporter puts some election propaganda in the mail box.

Finished mowing and had a look to see what they were touting and goodness gracious I'm greeted with a smiling Jacinda and a stately looking Winston

Yes, God telling me next Governmnent is a Labour / NZ First coalition ....just maybe


Should stereotype the young should I

Well that happy union is no longer possible, so who isn't keeping up with the play? Surely not God?

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 01:57 PM
Young Guy God:)
Course its in play, winston is a chameleon. And he speaks in many tongues.

winner69
11-09-2017, 02:47 PM
Policies - whose got the better ones

The Voight-Kampff test

http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/09/policy-captcha/

minimoke
11-09-2017, 04:56 PM
[QUOTE=winner69;683452]Policies - whose got the better ones

The Voight-Kampff test

http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/09/policy-captcha/[/QUOTE
Even more interesting wiuld be the parties response to: "Describe in single words. Only the good things that come to your mind. About your mother"

Snow Leopard
11-09-2017, 05:03 PM
If we are going to do Blade Runner then we have to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOW4QiOD-oc

Anyone going to see the sequel Blade Runner 2049 (http://bladerunnermovie.com/) ?

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

minimoke
11-09-2017, 06:04 PM
If we are going to do Blade Runner then we have to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOW4QiOD-oc

Anyone going to see the sequel Blade Runner 2049 (http://bladerunnermovie.com/) ?

Best Wishes
Paper TigerI rate it as one of the best movies EVER!. Not sure I'll be able to afford to see it after the election - might just have to rely on my Blu-Ray of the original to get me through. Anyway - always a bit nervous of sequels. But this one has been a long time in the making so it could be excellent

Snow Leopard
11-09-2017, 06:20 PM
...Not sure I'll be able to afford to see it after the election...

How much does it cost to go to the flicks in NZ then?

We pay no more than MYR15 (NZ$5) to see movie.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

minimoke
11-09-2017, 06:35 PM
How much does it cost to go to the flicks in NZ then?

We pay no more than MYR15 (NZ$5) to see movie.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger
I dont know. Last time i took the family i had to extend my mortgage

fungus pudding
11-09-2017, 07:02 PM
How much does it cost to go to the flicks in NZ then?

We pay no more than MYR15 (NZ$5) to see movie.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

I think it was 5 shillings last time I went.

Snow Leopard
11-09-2017, 07:35 PM
I think it was 5 shillings last time I went.

Oh for the those good old days when the movie was silent, black & white and accompanied by a live pianist!

The cinema in Wairoa (http://gaietytheatre.co.nz/) was always my favourite place.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

winner69
11-09-2017, 07:49 PM
Oh for the those good old days when the movie was silent, black & white and accompanied by a live pianist!

The cinema in Wairoa (http://gaietytheatre.co.nz/) was always my favourite place.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

At the local $12 be the oldies price ....but the $10 for a glass of wine or two while you slump in the big armchairs can make an expensive afternoon out on a rainy day

Hope Jacinda doesn't pit a stop to this fun.

Joshuatree
11-09-2017, 08:53 PM
Event Cinemas $17 for adults ,$15 for students$10.50 for seniors 65 plus
Rialto who i support for more alternative quality films$11.50 adults $9.50 seniors 60 plus $7 with concussion card ($7)
Been to at least 6 in Rialto and 1 in hamilton in the last week s film festival which has been excellent.

Snow Leopard
11-09-2017, 09:56 PM
Event Cinemas $17 for adults ,$15 for students$10.50 for seniors 65 plus
Rialto who i support for more alternative quality films$11.50 adults $9.50 seniors 60 plus $7 with concussion card ($7)
Been to at least 6 in Rialto and 1 in hamilton in the last week s film festival which has been excellent.

I have not beaten round the head enough to get a concussion card, yet :p.

Currently we are doing the Japanese Film Festival (https://www.jfkl.org.my/events/jff-2017/) at RM8 a ticket.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

fungus pudding
12-09-2017, 02:16 AM
At the local $12 be the oldies price ....but the $10 for a glass of wine or two while you slump in the big armchairs can make an expensive afternoon out on a rainy day

Hope Jacinda doesn't pit a stop to this fun.

No. She'll tax it.

Bjauck
12-09-2017, 06:36 AM
No. She'll tax it. How else would would we pay for the medical and other costs coping with the effects from alcohol related problems?

Joshuatree
12-09-2017, 08:04 AM
Jacinda Adern has reiterated that death duties and inheritance tax are OFF THE TABLE.:mad ;::D:D

.

minimoke
12-09-2017, 08:09 AM
Jacinda Adern has reiterated that death duties and inheritance tax are OFF THE TABLE.:mad ;::D:D

.
But what if the expert tax committee says they should be implemented?

Its very clear she knows what taxes she wants - she just isn't telling