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minimoke
16-09-2017, 05:46 PM
Yeah, but at least they are nowhere near as dopey as Labour. .
Dopey - that's being kind. Making up a water tax on the fly, flip flopping on Tax and $20m for fast rail from Tauranga to Auckland reeks of incompetence.

winner69
16-09-2017, 05:53 PM
Labour seem to have been rather quiet about the carry ons of Jian Yang ....hmmm

minimoke
16-09-2017, 05:58 PM
Labour seem to have been rather quiet about the carry ons of Jian Yang ....hmmm
No surprise there - you wouldn't want anyone looking any deeper into Comrade Jacinda and her Youth Socialist crew and what they get up to. Marxist activism probably trumps whatever Jian Yang was up to

iceman
16-09-2017, 06:21 PM
There was always going to be a big delay on tax changes, now it's officially three years. It doesn't matter too much, a Labour govt will be looking harder at big corporates, and their other initiatives will improve productivity, employment levels, and the net tax returns.

Here's a compilation of mean tweets read out by the MPs or people concerned. Contains swearing beeped out.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/16-09-2017/watch-nz-politicians-read-mean-tweets/

How are we going to take that statement seriously ? Taxinda (and all those supporting her on this forum) have been saying she will not stand by and wait as the issues need dealing with ASAP and she will do it without taking it to an election to let the voters decide. Then she finally is told that she is wrong and asks Robinson to announce that her "Captain's Call" has turned into "Captain's Fail" , "Lets do this" turned into "Lets not do this" and you all continue like it was great that she saw her "mistake" (As JT put it) and changed her stand. No credibility left for Taxinda, Labour and you guys whatsoever.

Baa_Baa
16-09-2017, 06:31 PM
How are we going to take that statement seriously ? Taxinda (and all those supporting her on this forum) have been saying she will not stand by and wait as the issues need dealing with ASAP and she will do it without taking it to an election to let the voters decide. Then she finally is told that she is wrong and asks Robinson to announce that her "Captain's Call" has turned into "Captain's Fail" , "Lets do this" turned into "Lets not do this" and you all continue like it was great that she saw her "mistake" (As JT put it) and changed her stand. No credibility left for Taxinda, Labour and you guys whatsoever.

+1 that. Nice summary.

elZorro
16-09-2017, 07:52 PM
How are we going to take that statement seriously ? Taxinda (and all those supporting her on this forum) have been saying she will not stand by and wait as the issues need dealing with ASAP and she will do it without taking it to an election to let the voters decide. Then she finally is told that she is wrong and asks Robinson to announce that her "Captain's Call" has turned into "Captain's Fail" , "Lets do this" turned into "Lets not do this" and you all continue like it was great that she saw her "mistake" (As JT put it) and changed her stand. No credibility left for Taxinda, Labour and you guys whatsoever.

Wasn't it National that increased GST for the masses with no indication at all? At least Labour will give a fair warning, and they're even prepared to let everyone vote on it.

As for Bill...

fungus pudding
16-09-2017, 09:23 PM
Wasn't it National that increased GST for the masses with no indication at all? At least Labour will give a fair warning, and they're even prepared to let everyone vote on it.

As for Bill...

Stop being silly eZ. You know as well as I do the GST increase was more than offset by the drop in income tax rates. Time for a new and honest line of attack if you must harp on about our wonderful govt.

iceman
16-09-2017, 09:47 PM
Stop being silly eZ. You know as well as I do the GST increase was more than offset by the drop in income tax rates. Time for a new and honest line of attack if you must harp on about our wonderful govt.

They're running on empty FP when all they have is harp on about that move and make no comment on what my post was about :-)

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 06:56 AM
They're running on empty FP when all they have is harp on about that move and make no comment on what my post was about :-)

If you are referring to their decision to hold off tax increases until they have been detailed before an election,* they can hardly be thanked or congratulated for that. The decision to announce details after the massaged, hand-picked committee of her comrades had parrotted her recomendations, showed her extreme naivety.
*Your comment 'even prepared to let everyone vote on it' ........for Allah's sake ez - anything else would be 2cnd or 3rd world dictatorship conduct. NZ is first world still.

elZorro
17-09-2017, 07:58 AM
If you are referring to their decision to hold off tax increases until they have been detailed before an election,* they can hardly be thanked or congratulated for that. The decision to announce details after the massaged, hand-picked committee of her comrades had parrotted her recomendations, showed her extreme naivety.
*Your comment 'even prepared to let everyone vote on it' ........for Allah's sake ez - anything else would be 2cnd or 3rd world dictatorship conduct. NZ is first world still.

John Key went to the polls in late 2008 assuring NZ voters that National would not be increasing GST from 12.5%. By February 2010 they were talking about doing just that. They dropped taxes at the top and increased them for the masses. Would National have been voted in if that was made clear in 2008? I doubt it. It's also an admission of failure to grow the economy. The tax base was being shredded, and didn't recover to Labour's levels for many years. Jobs and services paid for that.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3311679/Key-no-GST-rise-video-emerges

777
17-09-2017, 08:14 AM
ez you are wrong. The tax decrease put everyone, no matter what their level of income was, with enough extra money to off set the GST increase.

It is as bad as Labour screaming now about the tax reductions to come next April as being tax gains for the rich and ignoring the fact that everyone once again benefits. The tax bands were well overdue for raising. The lower ones in particular.

elZorro
17-09-2017, 09:07 AM
ez you are wrong. The tax decrease put everyone, no matter what their level of income was, with enough extra money to off set the GST increase.

It is as bad as Labour screaming now about the tax reductions to come next April as being tax gains for the rich and ignoring the fact that everyone once again benefits. The tax bands were well overdue for raising. The lower ones in particular.

But of course with National, those already at the top will benefit the most. It's a deliberate undoing of the progressive tax base.

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 10:34 AM
But of course with National, those already at the top will benefit the most. It's a deliberate undoing of the progressive tax base.

Flatten the tax and they still pay heaps more. High earners generally contibute in a big way to society without being punished by a higher tax rate. A $70,000 income will be taxed at around $15,000 so perfectly fair if $140,000 was taxed at $30,000.

777
17-09-2017, 10:39 AM
But of course with National, those already at the top will benefit the most. It's a deliberate undoing of the progressive tax base.

But of course being Labour, that is how you/they would promote it. The progressive tax base is still there.

Looking at the statistics section of the IRD there are 2,904,380 taxpayers in the country earning. 2,608,920 earn less than $52,000 (the new band). 2,779,750 earn less than the top band ($70,000), that leaves 124,630 taxpayers over $70,000. (4.29%)

And you would want to deny the 2,779.750 a tax cut just because you hate the thought of those earning in the top tax bracket getting $20/week.

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 10:56 AM
But of course being Labour, that is how you/they would promote it. The progressive tax base is still there.

Looking at the statistics section of the IRD there are 2,904,380 taxpayers in the country earning. 2,608,920 earn less than $52,000 (the new band). 2,779,750 earn less than the top band ($70,000), that leaves 124,630 taxpayers over $70,000. (4.29%)

And you would want to deny the 2,779.750 a tax cut just because you hate the thought of those earning in the top tax bracket getting $20/week.

That sort of logic falls on deaf ears, blocked by the green eyed monster.

minimoke
17-09-2017, 11:59 AM
And you would want to deny the 2,779.750 a tax cut just because you hate the thought of those earning in the top tax bracket getting $20/week.
It just makes a mockery of Jacindas empty words about ending poverty and affordable housing. She's not stupid but what better way of shifting those people than to give them more of their own money. So what is her real agenda?

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 01:19 PM
It just makes a mockery of Jacindas empty words about ending poverty and affordable housing. She's not stupid but what better way of shifting those people than to give them more of their own money. So what is her real agenda?

Her real agenda is to make NZ the Scandinavia of the southern hemisphere.

winner69
17-09-2017, 01:46 PM
I know what EZ will be doing next Saturday - dragging people off the streets into a polling booth

Andre just sent me an email pleading with me to so the same -

Next Saturday, there’ll be Labour Election Day Mobilisation bases right across the country, but we need huge numbers of volunteers ready to hit the phones, go door knocking and help Labour voters get to vote.

.....will you volunteer to get voters to the polls on election day? Whatever time you can spare will make a huge difference.

elZorro
17-09-2017, 02:13 PM
I know what EZ will be doing next Saturday - dragging people off the streets into a polling booth

Andre just sent me an email pleading with me to so the same -

Next Saturday, there’ll be Labour Election Day Mobilisation bases right across the country, but we need huge numbers of volunteers ready to hit the phones, go door knocking and help Labour voters get to vote.

.....will you volunteer to get voters to the polls on election day? Whatever time you can spare will make a huge difference.

No I won't, that's on the nose I reckon. Won't achieve anything, and it could be illegal if done the wrong way. I'm going to walk to the local school and vote on the day, then kick back and watch the results. I'll be a bit tired from helping to grab all the signs back on the day before, anyway.

Just saw Jacinda at a Hamilton Theatre, it was packed and standing room only for the last people. Tamati Coffey and Anika Moa were there too, great job done by all and everyone was buzzing. Again Jacinda was mobbed afterwards. Had a brief chat to Annette King.

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 02:33 PM
No I won't, that's on the nose I reckon. Won't achieve anything, and it could be illegal if done the wrong way. I'm going to walk to the local school and vote on the day, then kick back and watch the results. I'll be a bit tired from helping to grab all the signs back on the day before, anyway.

Just saw Jacinda at a Hamilton Theatre, it was packed and standing room only for the last people. Tamati Coffee and Anika Moa were there too, great job done by all and everyone was buzzing. Again Jacinda was mobbed afterwards. Had a brief chat to Annette King.

I'm not surprised you're leaving it until the last minute, presumably in case Taxcinda comes out with anymore 'let's not do this' moments. Of course, Taxcinda and James Shaw could have a fight to the death dust-up after the nonsense on Q + A today.
I have no such concerns, so will vote in the morning, then again Tuesday, and daily until Saturday - when I will vote twice; mostly for Act, but a couple for National.

blackcap
17-09-2017, 04:18 PM
I'm not surprised you're leaving it until the last minute, presumably in case Taxcinda comes out with anymore 'let's not do this' moments. Of course, Taxcinda and James Shaw could have a fight to the death dust-up after the nonsense on Q + A today.
I have no such concerns, so will vote in the morning, then again Tuesday, and daily until Saturday - when I will vote twice; mostly for Act, but a couple for National.

Yeah I'm contemplating voting twice too. I have a mate who is on the roll but never bothers to vote. So I may rock up tomorrow at the local mall and cast a vote on his behalf. All they do is ask your name and address and no ID required (my partner has already voted and that is all she supplied). Then on Saturday its off to cast my own vote. 4 ticks blue :) (or ACT or NZF, have not yet fully decided how this is going to go)

minimoke
17-09-2017, 04:25 PM
Yeah I'm contemplating voting twice too. I have a mate who is on the roll but never bothers to vote. So I may rock up tomorrow at the local mall and cast a vote on his behalf. All they do is ask your name and address and no ID required (my partner has already voted and that is all she supplied). Then on Saturday its off to cast my own vote. 4 ticks blue :) (or ACT or NZF, have not yet fully decided how this is going to go)Cant see any problem with that. If its OK for the (ex) Green Party leader to massage the electoral system it should be OK for us mere voters. I've got a couple of spare ones as well - might have to go to 3 different polling booths

elZorro
17-09-2017, 05:29 PM
Cant see any problem with that. If its OK for the (ex) Green Party leader to massage the electoral system it should be OK for us mere voters. I've got a couple of spare ones as well - might have to go to 3 different polling booths

Are you guys trying to wind me up? I don't think it's that easy, and it's certainly illegal. If that person doesn't vote themselves, no-one else can do it for them. You should present the small card you got in the mail (one card one vote), and I'd think anyone not using that will be looked at pretty carefully on the 23rd. If you haven't enrolled by the 23rd, you can't vote. Go to an early polling station where you can enrol and vote at the same time, they'll have enough time to help you.

As for you desperate National voters, trying to keep a disappointing freeloading government in power, shame on you. Your time has come, get used to it.

Annette King said that she's quite happy leaving the next lot of policy decisions to the younger ones. Rod Oram would agree.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/1...ion2017-choice (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/16/48321/column-rodoram-election2017-choice)

artemis
17-09-2017, 05:41 PM
Of course they don't mean it. If they were planning to they would not exactly be saying so on a public forum.

Don't need an easyvote card to vote. I voted last week, card arrived afterwards. The person I got my voting paper from said a lot of people had not received their cards.

minimoke
17-09-2017, 06:12 PM
Are you guys trying to wind me up? I don't think it's that easy, and it's certainly illegal.
Illegal, schemegal. If its good enough for Meteria to add votes in an electorate that wasn't hers then its good enough to ensure a registered voters opportunity is used. Seems there are loads of greens who have no issue with manipulating the electoral systems - and they may get into bed with Labour. So lets not be making a fuss!

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 06:19 PM
Are you guys trying to wind me up? I don't think it's that easy, and it's certainly illegal. If that person doesn't vote themselves, no-one else can do it for them. You should present the small card you got in the mail (one card one vote), and I'd think anyone not using that will be looked at pretty carefully on the 23rd. If you haven't enrolled by the 23rd, you can't vote. Go to an early polling station where you can enrol and vote at the same time, they'll have enough time to help you.

As for you desperate National voters, trying to keep a disappointing freeloading government in power, shame on you. Your time has come, get used to it.

Annette King said that she's quite happy leaving the next lot of policy decisions to the younger ones. Rod Oram would agree.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/1...ion2017-choice (https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/16/48321/column-rodoram-election2017-choice)
You certainly don't need the card but it speeds things up if you can give then the number on it. It's the page no and column. They don't care if you haven't got the card. Nobody bothered with the votes I cast last week in three different polling places.

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 07:29 PM
I should add that if voting more than once make sure you use details of someone you know will not be voting, because every vote is checked against a master roll. You can buy voters rights for $10 a time or less. Better than donating to the party.

blackcap
17-09-2017, 07:59 PM
You certainly don't need the card but it speeds things up if you can give then the number on it. It's the page no and column. They don't care if you haven't got the card. Nobody bothered with the votes I cast last week in three different polling places.

Correct, you do not need the card. My partner voted without the card and only gave her name and address. She did not have to provide ID. So my initial thoughts are possible. Wind you up ELZorro... :) I would not do that surely?

For what its worth, I still have not received the card either. Its very tempting.. my friend never votes.... I know his address.... decisions decisions :)

elZorro
17-09-2017, 09:09 PM
Correct, you do not need the card. My partner voted without the card and only gave her name and address. She did not have to provide ID. So my initial thoughts are possible. Wind you up ELZorro... :) I would not do that surely?

For what its worth, I still have not received the card either. Its very tempting.. my friend never votes.... I know his address.... decisions decisions :)

The Herald's recent data suggests a Labour-Green coalition is on the cards.

http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/2017-election-forecast/

Except I can't agree with their countrywide Party vote numbers. They suggest that 96% of voters will vote for the big four. That's never happened before. 92% maybe.

iceman
17-09-2017, 10:01 PM
The Herald's recent data suggests a Labour-Green coalition is on the cards.

http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/2017-election-forecast/

Except I can't agree with their countrywide Party vote numbers. They suggest that 96% of voters will vote for the big four. That's never happened before. 92% maybe.

I would not be surprised EZ if people will be voting for the "major" parties this time more than in previous MMP elections. Clearly NZF has already lost some of their left leaning voters to Labour. I expect there is a real risk for NZF that their right leaning voters will get cold feet and vote for National if they think there is a potential for a Labour-Green coalition. I would not be surprised that as a result, NZF will not make the 5% threshold !

fungus pudding
17-09-2017, 10:07 PM
I would not be surprised EZ if people will be voting for the "major" parties this time more than in previous MMP elections. Clearly NZF has already lost some of their left leaning voters to Labour. I expect there is a real risk for NZF that their right leaning voters will get cold feet and vote for National if they think there is a potential for a Labour-Green coalition. I would not be surprised that as a result, NZF will not make the 5% threshold !

If that happened, they'd never be back.

GTM 3442
18-09-2017, 12:53 AM
If that happened, they'd never be back.

I suspect that New Zealand has a great desire for change of government this election.

I think that people who want a change will be likely to vote Labour, as they will think that doing so will make the change they want more likely to happen.

I think there will be a similar, although less pronounced, effect by those who don't want a change.

This will take votes off all the smaller parties across the political spectrum, and I suspect that some of them may never recover.

This will raise the spectre of what happens to MMP if the little parties never make 5%?

winner69
18-09-2017, 01:54 AM
I didn't see JACINDA Party on the voting form

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 05:42 AM
I didn't see JACINDA Party on the voting form

No. She's with National. Just tick that.

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 05:47 AM
I suspect that New Zealand has a great desire for change of government this election.

I think that people who want a change will be likely to vote Labour, as they will think that doing so will make the change they want more likely to happen.

I think there will be a similar, although less pronounced, effect by those who don't want a change.

This will take votes off all the smaller parties across the political spectrum, and I suspect that some of them may never recover.

This will raise the spectre of what happens to MMP if the little parties never make 5%?

Then we would at least have the party that received the most votes as the government, which overcomes the nonsense of FPP, but we would be better off with SMP.

winner69
18-09-2017, 05:52 AM
Hope Jacinda fiddling with the way the Reserve Bank works and monetary policy doesn't upset overseas forex traders and lenders

minimoke
18-09-2017, 06:26 AM
No. She's with National. Just tick that.
Can I do that. Gerry Brownlee told me "two ticks blue" in the weekend.

BlackPeter
18-09-2017, 07:07 AM
Amazing ... and here I thought that the Greenies shifted at least this election their focus onto the environment (after the Metiria disaster, this is). But they just can't change their spots - can they? The hard left appendix of our Labour party just can't hide what's really important for them: It is not the environment, it is taxing everybody who has any money they earned by hard work (like in a Kiwisaver account) and increasing the benefits for spoiled brats like Metiria:

James Shaw is calling for Capital Gains Tax NOW!

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/capital-gains-tax-now-greens-demand.html

Not sure what he wants to achieve other than lose further support (maybe take some hard left votes off Labour?), but than - listening to the electorate was never a skill valued on the Left side. At least we can't complain that they didn't show their true colours!

craic
18-09-2017, 07:48 AM
Her and I saw the section on Winnie last night on news or whatever and decided to give NZF or party vote. We may change but anything to keep the Greens out.

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 07:54 AM
Amazing ... and here I thought that the Greenies shifted at least this election their focus onto the environment (after the Metiria disaster, this is). But they just can't change their spots - can they? The hard left appendix of our Labour party just can't hide what's really important for them: It is not the environment, it is taxing everybody who has any money they earned by hard work (like in a Kiwisaver account) and increasing the benefits for spoiled brats like Metiria:

James Shaw is calling for Capital Gains Tax NOW!

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/capital-gains-tax-now-greens-demand.html

Not sure what he wants to achieve other than lose further support (maybe take some hard left votes off Labour?), but than - listening to the electorate was never a skill valued on the Left side. At least we can't complain that they didn't show their true colours!

His stance on making CGT key in any coalition negotiations was simply insane. Does he really believe Labour could do another 180 turn, making a full 360 degree reversal without irretrievably destroying themselves in their first week in office? Is he as naïve as Jacinda?

BlackPeter
18-09-2017, 07:57 AM
Her and I saw the section on Winnie last night on news or whatever and decided to give NZF or party vote. We may change but anything to keep the Greens out.

Not sure whether a vote for Winnie is a good strategy to keep the Greenies out of government. Vote National or ACT - Winnie is too unreliable and will go with whoever offers him the larger baubles of power ...

But than - I can't see any strategy which would make a vote for Winnie a good idea. If you want a Left government, than vote Labour. If you want a centre right government - vote National or ACT (if you want to support the centre).

What would a vote for Winnie give us other than an unpredictable government which will be the end of the rule of whatever party he is going with?

waikare
18-09-2017, 07:59 AM
Her and I saw the section on Winnie last night on news or whatever and decided to give NZF or party vote. We may change but anything to keep the Greens out.

I totally support your last statement, they concern me (The Green) with some of there promises, like giving free transport to under 19 years of age, what the good in that, it's uncool for a teenager to be seen standing at a bus stop. Not much to say on the important things like our hospital system.

blackcap
18-09-2017, 08:03 AM
I totally support your last statement, they concern me (The Green) with some of there promises, like giving free transport to under 19 years of age, what the good in that, it's uncool for a teenager to be seen standing at a bus stop. Not much to say on the important things like our hospital system.

Im not sure if that is a bad thing. All students in Holland have what is called an "OV". This is pretty much a "public transport card" which gives them free travel on trains, busses, trams, and subway. They can choose if its for during the week or if they want, the weekend option. Why is this such a bad thing?

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 08:07 AM
Her and I saw the section on Winnie last night on news or whatever and decided to give NZF or party vote. We may change but anything to keep the Greens out.

No guarantee that would keep the Greens out. In fact it's almost a certainty greens would be needed with Labour and Winston first to hit 50%. Winston has shown on numerous occasions that what he says, and what he does are two entirely different things.

waikare
18-09-2017, 08:25 AM
Im not sure if that is a bad thing. All students in Holland have what is called an "OV". This is pretty much a "public transport card" which gives them free travel on trains, busses, trams, and subway. They can choose if its for during the week or if they want, the weekend option. Why is this such a bad thing?

I didn't say it was a bad thing, it's not a adding value, just giving free rides for those who choose to, they aren't focused on our needs, like health, education and economy, just mention a couple.

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 08:44 AM
Im not sure if that is a bad thing. All students in Holland have what is called an "OV". This is pretty much a "public transport card" which gives them free travel on trains, busses, trams, and subway. They can choose if its for during the week or if they want, the weekend option. Why is this such a bad thing?

Because it's not free. Some other poor mug is paying. Make it 'free' for those with a medical pass, but not for every teenager who can't be bothered with his skateboard.

blackcap
18-09-2017, 08:50 AM
Because it's not free. Some other poor mug is paying. Make it 'free' for those with a medical pass, but not for every teenager who can't be bothered with his skateboard.

Give them free transport yes, but do take it from their allowance, which I think they do in Holland. So the allowance is diminished but public transport is free. Means they actually use it rather than using the extra $ for skipping class and going to the publy.

minimoke
18-09-2017, 09:25 AM
Because it's not free. Some other poor mug is paying. Make it 'free' for those with a medical pass, but not for every teenager who can't be bothered with his skateboard.
This whole "free" business anoys me. Obviously its not free as someone has to pay and that someone is the long suffering taxpayer.

Politicians should be honest and say we are going to shift money from the haves to those we think will win us a vote with something for free.

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 09:29 AM
Give them free transport yes, but do take it from their allowance, which I think they do in Holland. So the allowance is diminished but public transport is free. Means they actually use it rather than using the extra $ for skipping class and going to the publy.

Or buying them thar funny cookies.

winner69
18-09-2017, 10:53 AM
Can you NOT vote for Jacinda after this

Sgt Pepper
18-09-2017, 12:19 PM
But it's what Taxcinda wishes for us. Utopia.

Utopia Fungus?

Well, as a relatively high income earner who pays all his tax obligations every second Thursday in full in the knowledge that many of the rentiers seem to think they owe zero to the provision of state services.
Yet they expect a full state response should their coronary arteries close suddenly.
No its the inequities in the current tax system, now that is dystopian

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 01:52 PM
Utopia Fungus?

Well, as a relatively high income earner who pays all his tax obligations every second Thursday in full in the knowledge that many of the rentiers seem to think they owe zero to the provision of state services.
Yet they expect a full state response should their coronary arteries close suddenly.
No its the inequities in the current tax system, now that is dystopian

I know what you mean. Certainly seems unfair that some pay only 10 to 20 % while some pay 30% or more, up to almost 33%.

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 02:07 PM
Can you NOT vote for Jacinda after this

Praise be to Allah. That's so sad - the man should expect no less!

fungus pudding
18-09-2017, 02:09 PM
Can you NOT vote for Jacinda after this

The man should expect no less.

minimoke
18-09-2017, 06:11 PM
Are you guys trying to wind me up? I don't think it's that easy, and it's certainly illegal. If that person doesn't vote themselves, no-one else can do it for them. You should present the small card you got in the mail (one card one vote),
The are like snowflakes from heaven. Had another envelope arrive from the electoral office turn up in the mail today. Poor old Gerry. Looking more and more like a List MP every day!

Joshuatree
18-09-2017, 08:31 PM
I'm not driven by what is acceptable to you.

Shame.It was an opp to improve the standard here and fight a fair fight above the bar . Calling the leader an offensive name is the norm for the national party and its acolytes. Lying and cheating , throwing mud, smearing as you are doing with an incorrect name well i have to give you full marks for consistency there; great role model for the next generation to take on board, Trump down under, National the winner by a mudslide in the behaving badly stakes anyway. I guess any way to get a result regardless is your motto fp.

Meanwhile people are dying for lack of an operation.DHB's underfunded under Nationals watch. But not to worry who cares when you've got medical insurance ehh!;)

Health, Environment, Poverty, Housing, Addictions etc all rundown under nationals watch. Rise up NZ we can do much better than this.Lets add values with Labour.:t_up:

Joshuatree
18-09-2017, 09:04 PM
We are talking about VALUES thats one of the changes ur country wants and needs.

One heartening thing that was said to me around the country was that the conversations about values-based politics gave people hope – whether people were young or old. But these conversations also gave me hope. I saw the reservoirs of warmth and goodwill in people around the country, not yet entirely depleted by neoliberalism. I saw that such warmth and goodwill in the people that invited me into their homes to talk politics, in the people that wanted to pick me up from airports and train stations to chat about values, in the people whom I’d never met before who let me stay in their homes (with the amazing organising support of Bridget Williams Books). I was reminded in all of this that, for all the talk of anti-intellectualism in New Zealand, we have a culture willing to debate big ideas – about values, or decolonisation, or neoliberalism.
I do not, however, want to be too starry-eyed or complacent about the task ahead of us. Our record on fossil fuel emissions, youth suicide, sexual violence, mass incarceration and a host of other issues remains shameful in Aotearoa New Zealand. As the recent leaders debates revealed, it is still difficult to talk about changing our economic model, for example by asking the wealthy to pay a bit more tax. I saw, around the country, a fair amount of anger and unhappiness about the failure of successive governments to deal with these issues.
Our next challenge is to draw on the reservoirs of goodwill and warmth, and to harness this collective anger, in order to turn debate into action. We will have to do that because, to put it simply, debate on its own is not enough.
Election time offers one opportunity to act – to call for parties, of whatever hue, to offer more transformative policies, and to vote with our values. I, for one, think it is time for a change of government.
But beyond September 23, we cannot let up on putting pressure on politicians to help to create something better. In my view, that “something better” is a politics grounded in care, community, and creativity – a politics underpinned, ultimately, by love. The structures of our politics in their current form don’t accommodate how people are doing politics or want to be done. We need to change that.
And to build that different kind of politics we need to do the “cultural work” that Vivian Hutchinson talked to me about: the self-reflection, the listening, the conversations and connections with others. It is, as Hutchinson says, about “the making of a movement”.
My travels around the country suggest that we may have the start of that movement – in the people gathering in search of a common purpose, in the ideas beginning to take shape, in the energy developing in the spaces between us. We mustn’t let go of the momentum.
You can go shopping with values: Max Harris on the politics of love (https://thespinoff.co.nz/books/18-09-2017/you-can-go-shopping-with-values-max-harris-on-the-politics-of-love/)

minimoke
19-09-2017, 06:00 AM
We are talking about VALUES thats one of the changes ur country wants and needs.

Values wont feed the hungry or house those in cars.

And what's this "asking the wealthy to pay a bit more tax" We aren't going to asked - its going to be taken off us without our permission. Theft - great value!

minimoke
19-09-2017, 07:56 AM
How is it possible amy adams, minister responsible for housing and she does not know how many houses were built in aucland last year!

winner69
19-09-2017, 10:30 AM
Jeez that Andrew Kirton is a real sourpuss

Thought that Labour was running a 'positive' campaign

fungus pudding
19-09-2017, 01:23 PM
Shame.It was an opp to improve the standard here and fight a fair fight above the bar . Calling the leader an offensive name is the norm for the national party and its acolytes.

I did not call anyone an offensive name, and I am not an acolyte to or of National or any other political party.

Joshuatree
19-09-2017, 01:32 PM
Taxinda is offensive, was hoping we could lift the bar of decency a bit.

fungus pudding
19-09-2017, 01:57 PM
Taxinda is offensive, was hoping we could lift the bar of decency a bit.

Don't be silly. I'm sure she doesn't find it offensive. I don't find it offensive either. What about being called Jakinda suprise, as she told a bunch of schoolkids? Is that:
(1) As offensive
(2) Less offensive
(3) Not offensive
(4) More offensive.

Full marks if you picked 3.
Anyone who can't see a bit of humour in their nick-name is too thin skinned for politics. I'm quite sure she's got a sense of humour.

blackcap
19-09-2017, 02:24 PM
Don't be silly. I'm sure she doesn't find it offensive. I don't find it offensive either. What about being called Jakinda suprise, as she told a bunch of schoolkids? Is that:
(1) As offensive
(2) Less offensive
(3) Not offensive
(4) More offensive.

Full marks if you picked 3.
Anyone who can't see a bit of humour in their nick-name is too thin skinned for politics. I'm quite sure she's got a sense of humour.

Good call, all in good humour and good fun. I think some people need to be less snowflakie. I have heard a lot worse than Taxinda.

777
19-09-2017, 02:26 PM
Yeah, Recinda after the backflip on CGT.

fungus pudding
19-09-2017, 02:39 PM
Yeah, Recinda after the backflip on CGT.

Excellent.

blackcap
19-09-2017, 02:54 PM
Yeah, Recinda after the backflip on CGT.

Or Convercinda after all the "conversations" she wants to have.

Joshuatree
19-09-2017, 04:17 PM
Don't be silly. I'm sure she doesn't find it offensive. I don't find it offensive either. What about being called Jakinda suprise, as she told a bunch of schoolkids? Is that:
(1) As offensive
(2) Less offensive
(3) Not offensive
(4) More offensive.

Full marks if you picked 3.
Anyone who can't see a bit of humour in their nick-name is too thin skinned for politics. I'm quite sure she's got a sense of humour.

Ok I've tried .Mods its your call from here on because there are no standards here for anyone to meet. But that is consistent for the national party and its acolytes on here.

Whatever happened to honest Bill; corrupted by power.

But what is National saying to its rural support base? It’s not just that Labour is a tax and spend party, or that Labour’s water tax will cripple good honest farmers. Bill English told the nation on TVNZ’s Q&A (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a)yesterday morning that the consequence of the water policies of the “opposition parties” was to “slaughter the dairy herd”. He then said, “The next thing they’ll be talking about: depopulate the cities, because they cause water pollution too.”
This, by the way, was shortly after he’d denied he was leading a campaign of lies and scaremongering. Whatever happened to Honest Bill?
New Zealand doesn't have an urban-rural divide – but National's trying its hardest to create one (https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-09-2017/new-zealand-doesnt-have-an-urban-rural-divide-but-nationals-trying-its-hardest-to-create-one/)

blackcap
19-09-2017, 04:43 PM
Ok I've tried .Mods its your call from here on because there are no standards here for anyone to meet. But that is consistent for the national party and its acolytes on here.



I feel that's sorta like that old saying the pot calling the kettle black or how did that go again.

minimoke
19-09-2017, 04:43 PM
Howabout JacInda - with a capital I

Puttig the emphasis where she would like it

minimoke
19-09-2017, 04:46 PM
On sunday, will it be Jacintarella?

Baa_Baa
19-09-2017, 05:08 PM
Or Joshcindatree? Is she he, or he she, maybe?

:eek2:

westerly
19-09-2017, 05:37 PM
Or Joshcindatree? Is she he, or he she, maybe?

:eek2:

Just to change the attack. " Bill delivering for all New Zealanders " He will give you a tax cut but only by reducing Govt. funded services. Waikato hospital as with all hospitals in NZ severely under staffed and under funded. Police struggling to cope with crime. Again under funded. As for housing -its really too hard for National to cope with the problems so we will buy a couple of motels and that will solve it.
Immigration, carry on we need lots of low paid workers and plenty of multi millionaires.
As for jet fuel, tell Govt. workers to can their travel arrangements and our MPs can stay at home and campaign in their electorates. That will solve that one.
Bills out on his delivery bike for all NZers.

westerly

tim23
19-09-2017, 06:01 PM
If thats your best shot Gus - its pathetic.
No. She's with National. Just tick that.

tim23
19-09-2017, 06:03 PM
Gus your memory is failing you - you've called me plenty of offensive names...
I did not call anyone an offensive name, and I am not an acolyte to or of National or any other political party.

fungus pudding
19-09-2017, 06:10 PM
Just to change the attack. " Bill delivering for all New Zealanders " He will give you a tax cut but only by reducing Govt. funded services. Waikato hospital as with all hospitals in NZ severely under staffed and under funded. Police struggling to cope with crime. Again under funded. As for housing -its really too hard for National to cope with the problems so we will buy a couple of motels and that will solve it.
Immigration, carry on we need lots of low paid workers and plenty of multi millionaires.
As for jet fuel, tell Govt. workers to can their travel arrangements and our MPs can stay at home and campaign in their electorates. That will solve that one.
Bills out on his delivery bike for all NZers.

westerly

Nobody gives tax cuts. They are not a gift. What governments can do is help themselves to less.

elZorro
19-09-2017, 06:33 PM
Nobody gives tax cuts. They are not a gift. What governments can do is help themselves to less.

So in your view, there is nothing useful to put those taxes into? So what if a few extra staff are employed in the public sector. They pay taxes, they buy stuff, they have a dignity not seen in the dole queue. That's how Labour grew the economy so well last time. Bring it on.

Locally, a farming protest in Morrinsville managed to get on TV last night. Winston sort of derailed it, probably just to coat-tail on the publicity. Why not?

These are the same farmers who say that cows only live for five-seven years, so therefore they don't pollute more than humans in their lifetimes. Except they're outdoors and uncontrolled, and always get replaced with more cows.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96918129/alison-mau-morrinsville--where-the-politics-is-getting-dirtier-than-the-worst-farm-stream

If you want to hear what one farmer thinks, a farmer who appears to have been chosen as a spokesperson by the Waikato rural community, it's a bit of an eyeopener. Put a mic in front of this guy and it's quite an education.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201859018/farm-protest-organiser-rural-economist-debate-water-tax

blackcap
19-09-2017, 08:30 PM
S
If you want to hear what one farmer thinks, a farmer who appears to have been chosen as a spokesperson by the Waikato rural community, it's a bit of an eyeopener. Put a mic in front of this guy and it's quite an education.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201859018/farm-protest-organiser-rural-economist-debate-water-tax

Had a listen and he makes some very good points. The guy advocating the Labour side sounds like a sneaky weasel. The farmer is just saying it how it is.

minimoke
19-09-2017, 08:58 PM
Nobody gives tax cuts. They are not a gift. What governments can do is help themselves to less.
This is why things like Working For Families works so well. It lulls everyone into the idea that the money is a gift from government and makes nearly every one a beneficiary. Ignoring the simple fact it was someone elses money in the first place.

elZorro
19-09-2017, 09:02 PM
Had a listen and he makes some very good points. The guy advocating the Labour side sounds like a sneaky weasel. The farmer is just saying it how it is.

Now I'm really worried. I thought it was just one rogue farmer talking around the facts.:(

Just to be clear. Are you saying that the Morrinsville farmer is being fully honest about the situation that average Waikato farmers could face under a Labour Government? What are they afraid of, again?

Anyway, I thought farmers like to minimise taxes, and improve local waterways. Sounds like a win-win.

Despite Bill saying at every opportunity that farmers are working tirelessly on improving our waterways and runoff (or words carefully chosen to that effect) Mike Joy reports that the waterways are getting worse.

We have to act now.

huxley
19-09-2017, 09:38 PM
Had a listen and he makes some very good points. The guy advocating the Labour side sounds like a sneaky weasel. The farmer is just saying it how it is.


Wow, I would've said "the guy advocating the Labour side" sounded like he was banging his head against a brick wall, sounded painful. :t_down:

huxley
19-09-2017, 09:48 PM
Wait. So farmers are the ones with a collectively owned, vertically integrated, profit-distributing supply chain, and we're the communists?

Joshuatree
19-09-2017, 10:23 PM
Vote for a Liar? .Whatever happened to Honest Bill? A Leader?
"But what is National saying to its rural support base? It’s not just that Labour is a tax and spend party, or that Labour’s water tax will cripple good honest farmers. Bill English told the nation on TVNZ’s Q&A (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a)yesterday morning that the consequence of the water policies of the “opposition parties” was to “slaughter the dairy herd”. He then said, “The next thing they’ll be talking about: depopulate the cities, because they cause water pollution too.”
This, by the way, was shortly after he’d denied he was leading a campaign of lies and scaremongering. Whatever happened to Honest Bill?"

Joshuatree
19-09-2017, 10:28 PM
More Porkies from Bill
"Dairy NZ says there are 2000 dairy farms using irrigation. Most of them are in the South Island and are much larger than the average NZ dairy farm. According to Dairy NZ, Labour’s water tax would cost those farms an average $45,000 per year. Close to the low end of English’s range, but nothing like the $100,000 he also mentioned. There are 10,000 more dairy farms in New Zealand that do not use irrigation. Dairy NZ says they would pay $240 a year."

Joshuatree
19-09-2017, 10:31 PM
SLANDER the new norm. Would you trust such a leader?

"It’s revealing in many ways that Bill English thinks it’s okay to get farmers enraged at Labour and the Greens. One is that he appears to believe his reputation for integrity is unassailable. Another is that his party knows slander works, and they’re not above using it. We knew that already, most recently thanks to Steven Joyce and the so-called $11 billion hole in Labour’s budget. That was a fiction English himself would have taken part in creating and which he continues to promote."

Joshuatree
19-09-2017, 10:55 PM
No values no caring from National


DHBs critically underfunded, opposition parties sayFrom Checkpoint (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint), 5:38 pm today
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A Dunedin man whose prostate cancer spread after he waited 10 months for urgent surgery has been failed by an underfunded health system, say opposition parties.
Stephen Hoffman told Checkpoint yesterday (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201858959/southern-dhb-s-life-shortening-failure) his GP referred him as an urgent case to Dunedin Hospital in September last year.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/news/122177/eight_col_nz_hospitals.png?1503381127Photo: RNZ/ SUPPLIED

He had classic symptoms of prostate cancer, a family history, an abnormal DRE, a rock hard prostate and progressive urinary discomfort.
But instead of having surgery within the Ministry of Health's six week guideline, the 62-year-old waited 10 months and the cancer has now spread to his rectum.
Labour, New Zealand First and the Green Party said today that Mr Hoffman's case - which was just one of several similar cases at the Southern District Health Board - was the sad consequence of a DHB which has been critically underfunded.
When asked about Mr Hoffman's situation today, National Leader Bill English said while his situation was unacceptable, it highlighted long-standing issues within the Southern DHB's urology department.
"Of course it's the obligation of the DHBs to make sure - where there is any evidence that it's less than a world-class service - that they're taking action to change it.
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"This is a big system, it's seven or eight percent of the whole economy, it's bigger than the dairy industry, and at any given time, there will be pressure points in it and we expect the DHBs to deal with those effectively."
However, Labour leader Jacinda Ardern said DHBs had been underfunded by $2.3 billion and Mr Hoffman's story was a sad consequence of that.
"Some of the stories that we've seen coming out of the southern DHB in particular really are staggering.
"I think there would be an expectation in New Zealand that you would, once you are diagnosed, get the health care you need. The fact that this is not happening speaks to the drift we've had in healthcare, and the need for action."
The Southern DHB's Chief Medical Officer of Health Nigel Millar conceded to Checkpoint last night Mr Hoffman was not alone, with other men in a similar situation (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201858960/men-face-shortened-lives-due-to-southern-dhb-failures).
New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters said the government had made Mr Millar the fall guy for long-term underfunding.
"The saddest thing there was the head of the DHB, who is obviously a decent, honest person, trying to explain away why somebody waited 10 months for something that should have taken a maximum of six weeks.
"As a consequence, he's got a truncated life to look forward to, and frankly, we are down dramatically in health funding in this country."
Green Party leader James Shaw said waiting times were unacceptable.
"They are, at the very least, life threatening and I know people have had their life expectancy cut because of the length of the waiting time."
Mr Hoffman said he was now incontinent and had been told his prognosis was not good. He's been given five years, but was yet to receive an apology from the Southern DHB, he said.
Checkpoint asked the Southern DHB today when changes would be made to staffing and theatre resourcing within the urology department and if they could clarify if hundreds of urology patients were currently sitting outside the Ministry's guidelines and waiting longer than they should for treatment.
Late this afternoon the DHB responded, saying the request was being treated as an Official Information Act request.

elZorro
20-09-2017, 06:16 AM
More Porkies from Bill
"Dairy NZ says there are 2000 dairy farms using irrigation. Most of them are in the South Island and are much larger than the average NZ dairy farm. According to Dairy NZ, Labour’s water tax would cost those farms an average $45,000 per year. Close to the low end of English’s range, but nothing like the $100,000 he also mentioned. There are 10,000 more dairy farms in New Zealand that do not use irrigation. Dairy NZ says they would pay $240 a year."

Interesting data. If you consider that the 'free' water probably costs them plenty already to get a consent, drill a bore, pay for ongoing power and pump and boom maintenance, plus insurance. Why are they doing it?

Two reasons: If each irrigator setup costs $1mill, the farm value goes up $2mill, was the old rule of thumb. The extra water available in times of drought, grows grass that must be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars or more, per year, per farm. The only other option is brought in feed. Some farms have multiple centre pivot irrigators.

So would a $50,000 reminder fee for water table degradation/restoration really break the bank on these farms? I doubt it.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 06:39 AM
So would a $50,000 reminder fee for water table degradation/restoration really break the bank on these farms? I doubt it.

A "reminder fee"? Where do you get these ideas. Youll have us dragging up any old memory and charging us for it next.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 06:53 AM
IF YOU NEED JUST ONE GOOD REASON TO VOTE LABOUR LOOK AT THE TRAGEDIES UNFOLDING IN OUR DHB'S DUE TO UNDERFUNDING

DHBs critically underfunded, say opposition parties (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201859108/dhbs-critically-underfunded-opposition-parties-say)

However, Labour leader Jacinda Ardern said DHBs had been underfunded by $2.3 billion and Mr Hoffman's story was a sad consequence of that.
"Some of the stories that we've seen coming out of the southern DHB in particular really are staggering.
"I think there would be an expectation in New Zealand that you would, once you are diagnosed, get the health care you need. The fact that this is not happening speaks to the drift we've had in healthcare, and the need for action."
The Southern DHB's Chief Medical Officer of Health Nigel Millar conceded to Checkpoint last night Mr Hoffman was not alone, with other men in a similar situation (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201858960/men-face-shortened-lives-due-to-southern-dhb-failures).

elZorro
20-09-2017, 07:07 AM
A "reminder fee"? Where do you get these ideas. Youll have us dragging up any old memory and charging us for it next.

I don't think it's really a full-blown tax. It should be part of the costs in running an irrigation system on a big scale farming business, just like rates are an overhead. And it strikes me that this amount of fees, per farm per year, will be spread fairly thinly on reparation works. It'll need buy-in from locals too.

Sgt Pepper
20-09-2017, 08:00 AM
This is why things like Working For Families works so well. It lulls everyone into the idea that the money is a gift from government and makes nearly every one a beneficiary. Ignoring the simple fact it was someone elses money in the first place.

So why did John Key( "working for families is communism by stealth") not only preserve WFF but extend it once he attained power??

fungus pudding
20-09-2017, 08:11 AM
So why did John Key( "working for families is communism by stealth") not only preserve WFF but extend it once he attained power??

The problem with dopey policies is once they are introduced it's politically risky to unwind them. e.g. interest free loans to students.

Sgt Pepper
20-09-2017, 08:43 AM
The problem with dopey policies is once they are introduced it's politically risky to unwoind them. e.g. interest free loans to students.

Surely if JK had integrity and the courage of his convictions he would have at least declined to extend WFF ?

fungus pudding
20-09-2017, 08:48 AM
Surely if JK had integrity and the courage of his convictions he would have at least declined to extend WFF ?

Don't worry too much. He's not standing this time. I'm surprised you didn't know.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 08:54 AM
The problem with dopey policies is once they are introduced it's politically risky to unwind them. e.g. interest free loans to students.
And buying a train set.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 08:58 AM
IF YOU NEED JUST ONE GOOD REASON TO VOTE LABOUR LOOK AT THE TRAGEDIES UNFOLDING IN OUR DHB'S DUE TO UNDERFUNDING

DHBs critically underfunded, say opposition parties (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201859108/dhbs-critically-underfunded-opposition-parties-say).
Dr Lance O' Sullivan, NZ'er of The Year reckons that when he becomes Minister of health he is going to freeze DHB funding for five years. Why. Because the present model is inefficient and wasteful - probably to the tune of a few $b. He's a another person who makes good sense - probably why he's NZ of the Year.

The health system is enormous - its not hard to find a problem here and a problem there of any kind in a system so big. As sure a things as taxes - ther will alway be problems with Health not meeting expectations.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 09:50 AM
Sure ; 9 years of fiddling, inefficiencies and wastefulness and plain not caring and its a disaster.
NO VALUES from national.If you don't have medical insurance you are disposed of. Thats it in a nutshell. Send (try to)an 85 year old man home at 11.30pm on a cold night with an hour to get home simply because they want the bed NOW.

Have an op to treat an invasive cancer, many month s later people are dying because the op never happened. Quality of life is what counts not OECD ratings. The fact that there were plenty of funds available for the DHB's but national have failed us yet again.Its criminal!

Put an ailing man in a wheelchair and leave him at a bus stop, out of sight out of mind, out of care. The man falls out of wheelchair dies two days later, no insurance NOT VALUED. Really sick. Throwing money at it won't fix it i agree but combined with efficiencies and improving relations with the people at the coal face, doctors etc , it will.

This is one reason alone national have to be eliminated as govt, many others too.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 09:59 AM
Sure ; 9 years of fiddling, inefficiencies and wastefulness and plain not caring and its a disaster.
You referring to Labour? What did they achieve while in opposition. Perfecting the selection of a new Leader is about the only thing I can think of. (Obviously they need more than 9 years)

minimoke
20-09-2017, 10:11 AM
Put an ailing man in a wheelchair and leave him at a bus stop, out of sight out of mind, out of care. The man falls out of wheelchair dies two days later, no insurance NOT VALUED. Really sick. Throwing money at it won't fix it i agree but combined with efficiencies and improving relations with the people at the coal face, doctors etc , it will.

This is one reason alone national have to be eliminated as govt, many others too.
Sure you an pick out a bad story - its not hard in health.

I've been very close to the health system of late and I rate it as excellent. The people I came across all stages of the system were great, the care was great, the outcomes as expected. I dont know if it was faultless - but I do know the standards were very high. They even had target measurements on noticeboards and you see all sorts of measurables for yourself.

I'd even go as far as saying I dont think you will find a world class system of healthcare across every element of health anywhere in the world. We do pretty well with a funding population of les than 4.8m

Jay
20-09-2017, 10:33 AM
Hasn't every government since I don't know when, nearly always have increased funding for health services in each budget, and especially near an election. As MM said I think we do pretty well given our smallish population.
That along with more police officers seems to stick out each budget, not sure where they all go, must just as many exiting thru the out door:confused:

So can't say (imho) that it is any particulars governments fault

winner69
20-09-2017, 12:35 PM
Jacinda worried about somw officials taking the boxes home and letting the kids fill in bogus papers or something?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97038273/election-advance-voting-ballot-boxes-taken-home-by-electoral-officials

artemis
20-09-2017, 12:55 PM
Jacinda worried about somw officials taking the boxes home and letting the kids fill in bogus papers or something?.....

Maybe doing a 'Hillary' and setting up for a court case if she loses.

Slightly more seriously, Mr Edgeler was on the wireless today saying he saw no problem with the practice as there were several safeguards in place. Which the Electoral Commission also stated.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 02:16 PM
[QUOTE=Jay;685067]Hasn't every government since I don't know when, nearly always have increased funding for health services in each budget, and especially near an election. As MM said I think we do pretty well given our smallish population.
That along with more police officers seems to stick out each budget, not sure where they all go, must just as many exiting thru the out door:confused:

The silent minority of ignored , sick and dying people disagree with you. Thousand s still waiting for eye ops for example. Many with what will be come irreversible glaucoma, macula degeneration sight loss.Not valued, not cared for.You may here about a very few who still have the strength to fight the system and manage to get some media interest.Tip of the very uncaring iceberg national imo. no care no values if one is uninsured you are a disposable statistic.

fungus pudding
20-09-2017, 02:25 PM
[QUOTE=Jay;685067]

The silent minority of ignored , sick and dying people disagree with you. Thousand s still waiting for eye ops for example. Many with what will be come irreversible glaucoma, macula degeneration sight loss.Not valued, not cared for.You may here about a very few who still have the strength to fight the system and manage to get some media interest.Tip of the very uncaring iceberg national imo. no care no values if one is uninsured you are a disposable statistic.

It seems to me that education is where things need a sharp boost, or was your schooling during a Labour govt?

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 02:31 PM
Wait. So farmers are the ones with a collectively owned, vertically integrated, profit-distributing supply chain, and we're the communists?

Yes the farmer is just saying how it is esp on canterbury plains where most of the irrigating is done because they converted so much unsuitable land to dairying and intensified; got cheap phillipino labour and are destroying the environment and creaming it literally. We are the upset ones about this in reality with those select few who are greedy and uncaring and polluting. Did they also drain the aquifers or is that in progress?


9181

minimoke
20-09-2017, 02:33 PM
[QUOTE=Jay;685067]

The silent minority of ignored , sick and dying people disagree with you. Thousand s still waiting for eye ops for example. Many with what will be come irreversible glaucoma, macula degeneration sight loss.Not valued, not cared for.You may here about a very few who still have the strength to fight the system and manage to get some media interest.Tip of the very uncaring iceberg national imo. no care no values if one is uninsured you are a disposable statistic.
Are you and EZ eating the fruit off the same Garbage Tree. If National was so uncaring they would have stripped DHB's of their budgets. Not increased health spending in areas such as pay for carers.

Simple fact is - no matter who is in government someone will miss out.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 02:39 PM
Yes the farmer is just saying how it is esp on canterbury plains where most of the irrigating is done because they converted so much unsuitable land to dairying and intensified; got cheap phillipino labour and are destroying the environment and creaming it literally. We are the upset ones about this in reality with those select few who are greedy and uncaring and polluting. Did they also drain the aquifers or is that in progress?


9181

Enough of the hate toward farmers! Its the city slickers causing much more of the problem. They are the ones pouring rubbish into their water ways, drive more cars and trucks per cubic meter of atmosphere, sucking more life out of the national grid and not paying for the water they use. It wasn't farmers who did this to the Ophihi River

minimoke
20-09-2017, 02:55 PM
Shouldnt Christchurch residents pay the same water tax?: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/our-communities/680884/River-choking-on-rubbish

What about more funding for thepolcie: http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/8545633/Police-divers-clean-up-riverbed

No water tax here (or farmers)!: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/317254/rubbish-purge-helps-puhinui-stream-claim-clean-up-title

Snow Leopard
20-09-2017, 03:14 PM
Shouldnt Christchurch residents pay the same water tax?: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/our-communities/680884/River-choking-on-rubbish

What about more funding for thepolcie: http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/8545633/Police-divers-clean-up-riverbed

No water tax here (or farmers)!: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/317254/rubbish-purge-helps-puhinui-stream-claim-clean-up-title

Joshuatree impression:
I am sure that all that rubbish dead cars & such was dumped by naughty National nobs and cleaned up by life long Labour lovers.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 03:38 PM
Seven Rivers Walking (http://email.simplemail.co.nz/t/r-l-jlddjhhy-kjydklldc-b/) A Nz movie about the degradation of braided and other rivers by agriculture etc for you to think about if you've got enough cajones to face the truth.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 03:40 PM
Enough of the hate toward farmers! Its the city slickers causing much more of the problem. They are the ones pouring rubbish into their water ways, drive more cars and trucks per cubic meter of atmosphere, sucking more life out of the national grid and not paying for the water they use. It wasn't farmers who did this to the Ophihi River

No hate from here.just want all users and abusers from city and land to be accountable and responsible. 9years of precious time wasted. Lets Do This.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 03:50 PM
Seven Rivers Walking (http://email.simplemail.co.nz/t/r-l-jlddjhhy-kjydklldc-b/) A Nz movie about the degradation of braided and other rivers by agriculture etc for you to think about if you've got enough cajones to face the truth.
I wont bore you with the details but this comes from min of Environment" Median nitrate-nitrogen, total nitrogen, and ammoniacal nitrogen concentrations were higher at sites in the urban land-cover class, compared with sites in the pastoral, exotic forest, or native land cover classes from 2009 to 2013"

and "Trends for the 10-year period 2004–13, at sites in the pastoral land-cover class:

Ammoniacal nitrogen concentrations improved at more sites than worsened.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 03:52 PM
No hate from here.just want all users and abusers from city and land to be accountable and responsible. 9years of precious time wasted. Lets Do This.Then surely a Polluter Penalty should apply. Labour wont do this for you.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 04:00 PM
Sounds int. Starting with Rivers mm
Seven Rivers Walking (http://email.simplemail.co.nz/t/r-l-jlddjhhy-kjydklldc-b/)

minimoke
20-09-2017, 04:03 PM
Sounds int. Starting with Rivers mm
Seven Rivers Walking (http://email.simplemail.co.nz/t/r-l-jlddjhhy-kjydklldc-b/)

Diversions from the facts wont sway me. Go on, ask JacInda for a Polluter Penalty. You wont get one because those grubby little Labour voters in the cities will have to look too closely at themselves.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 04:06 PM
Seven Rivers Walking (http://email.simplemail.co.nz/t/r-l-jlddjhhy-kjydklldc-b/)

minimoke
20-09-2017, 04:12 PM
Seven Rivers Walking (http://email.simplemail.co.nz/t/r-l-jlddjhhy-kjydklldc-b/)
You dont need to keep posting - I've walked and fished lots of the local rivers. How About you go to the Auckland voters and tell them they are up for a new tax for their contribution to local polluted waters. Since you like watching video - try this one.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 04:16 PM
Kiwis want water to cost (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97020647/over-half-of-kiwis-want-all-water-users-to-pay-water-nz-survey-shows)
NO SURPRISES HERE;THE COUNTRY WANTS IT
The majority of New Zealanders want farmers to be taxed for taking water from the environment, a new survey shows.
Who should pay for water has been a flash point for voters ahead of Saturday's election, with farmers protesting Labour's proposed water tax.
The results of a new Water New Zealand survey show the vast majority of Kiwis want commercial water users to be charged, and are concerned about the quality of waterways.
Seventy seven per cent of those surveyed said agriculture and horticulture users should pay for water, as did 77 per cent of participants living in rural communities

Fifty nine per cent of respondents said that all water users should pay, and 42 per cent of respondents thought they were already paying for water use.
A clear majority, 89 per cent, thought bottled water companies and similar industries should pay.
"Interestingly, these responses are consistent across city, regional and rural regions," Water New Zealand said in the survey report, released on Wednesd

tim23
20-09-2017, 05:11 PM
Can't you come up with something original I mean you've pillaged that off John Key!
And buying a train set.

iceman
20-09-2017, 05:11 PM
So the latest Colmar Brunton, the most reliable according to EZ, showing National pulling ahead of Labour quite a bit and NZF struggling just above 5% as I've been expecting. Personally I think the polls are all over the place and the election too close to call. I would not be surprised if we end up with only 4-5 parties represented in Parliament next term !

Bjauck
20-09-2017, 05:38 PM
So the latest Colmar Brunton, the most reliable according to EZ, showing National pulling ahead of Labour quite a bit and NZF struggling just above 5% as I've been expecting. Personally I think the polls are all over the place and the election too close to call. I would not be surprised if we end up with only 4-5 parties represented in Parliament next term ! I agree. The honeymoon with Ardern is over. The flip flop over tax did not help. Opinion still seems volatile.

I hope TOP get a bit more support though. Morgan is still laying into Peters...maybe he is hoping to get some NZ First switchers.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 07:24 PM
Can't you come up with something original I mean you've pillaged that off John Key!
There is no such thing as an original idea - look to labours policies for proof.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 07:24 PM
Crazy times. Im hopeful people see the advantage with an honest positive campaign by Ardern with the opposite from English. Could be the decisive turning point tonight with him maintaining the lie about a deficit hole,and digging his own hole even deeper. Hell even hoskings was handing him a spade:t_up:

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 07:40 PM
We rank near the bottom of the OECD on environmental taxes

The OECD offered a deeply researched and forcefully argued version of that diagnosis and remedy in March in its once-in-a-decade environmental review of New Zealand. (http://www.oecd.org/newzealand/oecd-environmental-performance-reviews-new-zealand-2017-9789264268203-en.htm) The water chapter accounted for 48 of the report's 251 pages.
Simon Upton, head of the OECD’s environment directorate, delivered the verdict to the government, which includes some of his old colleagues from the early 1990s when as National’s Environment Minister he brought the Resource Management Act to the statue books. He returns home next month to become our next Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment.
The slides, summary and full document are available here (http://www.oecd.org/newzealand/oecd-environmental-performance-reviews-new-zealand-2017-9789264268203-en.htm). The slides are a particularly succinct summary of our enormous environmental challenges, and a guide to the ways we can tackle them and the benefits we’ll derive from doing so.
We rank near the bottom of the OECD on environmental taxes

The OECD starts by setting a big economic context for our environmental policies. Two measures stand out. First, pollution abatement in New Zealand only cost an estimated 0.03% of GDP a year on average 2000-2013.
https://d3pbdxdl8c65wb.cloudfront.net/cloudinary/2017/Sep/02/YLTuC6DpUD59YCqOUxo6.png
“This may indicate that New Zealand’s strong growth has come partly at the expense of environmental quality, a dynamic that puts the country’s ‘green’ reputation at risk. This could be detrimental to the competitiveness and attractiveness of the economy in a global market as consumer and investor preferences shift towards sustainability and strong environmental performance,” the OECD says.
In contrast, investing in curbing pollution increased GDP in three-quarters of OECD countries. The top six countries enjoyed up to a 0.5% enhancement in GDP per year.
Second, we rank near the bottom of the OECD on environmental taxes as a percentage of tax revenues and GDP. Yet, the environment is so important to our economy, it makes sense to tax pollution as a way of improving environmental performance, while reducing tax on good things such as income and profits.

couta1
20-09-2017, 08:27 PM
Watching the debate tonight, the stardust has fallen to the ground, Bill showed his vast knowledge and experience as opposed to a smiley face with lots of good ideas with little substance.

elZorro
20-09-2017, 08:40 PM
So the latest Colmar Brunton, the most reliable according to EZ, showing National pulling ahead of Labour quite a bit and NZF struggling just above 5% as I've been expecting. Personally I think the polls are all over the place and the election too close to call. I would not be surprised if we end up with only 4-5 parties represented in Parliament next term !

Yep, I wasn't expecting that change from the Colmar poll. However, the Greens are up to 8%, so the Labour-Green vote tally is very close to National's. It's volatile, that's for sure.

There has been a lot of early voting though, and I like the sound of that. Some of the first-timers and others won't have land lines into their households, so they are not fully part of the polling from either Reid Research or Colmar Brunton. I remain optimistic for a Labour-Green outright win.

minimoke
20-09-2017, 08:58 PM
Crazy times. Im hopeful people see the advantage with an honest positive campaign by Ardern :t_up:
She says they aren't raisign personal taxes. Truth is on 1 april next year I will be paying more under Labout than under National. She will be raising the mount of tax I will pay. One step closer to homelessness. One step closer to poverty

minimoke
20-09-2017, 08:59 PM
Yep, I wasn't expecting that change from the Colmar poll. However, the Greens are up to 8%, .
How can the Greens possible be at 8% when Labour has such positive environmental and anti-poverty policies?

couta1
20-09-2017, 09:04 PM
How can the Greens possible be at 8% when Labour has such positive environmental and anti-poverty policies? The Greens holding any real power is a very scary thought.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 09:18 PM
She says they aren't raisign personal taxes. Truth is on 1 april next year I will be paying more under Labout than under National. She will be raising the mount of tax I will pay. One step closer to homelessness. One step closer to poverty

Sounds like a first world prob for you mm:mellow:..Nope no tax raises but more money going into social services, addiction therapy (p is a poverty drug), poverty ,our truly damaged health system(if you don't have health insurance you aren't valued as human being) ; our doctors and nurses at the coal face striving valiantly under multiple layers of admin covering their butts and achieving inefficiency . Give and you shall receive. Take and be miserable.

elZorro
20-09-2017, 09:21 PM
The Greens holding any real power is a very scary thought.

Why, what are they going to do? A lot of their policies are already incorporated in Labour and even NZ First policies, and National imply they're going to clean up the rivers too. After all, farmers have spent $2bill already over five years... If it was dairy farmers only, that's less than $20,000 p.a. each farm, which is on average what they'd spend on effluent containment near the dairy platform, I'd say. It won't be spent directly on improving rivers, and if it was, it's not working yet. But this puts into scale the Nat govt spend on water issues, not much at all.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 09:24 PM
Watching the debate tonight, the stardust has fallen to the ground, Bill showed his vast knowledge and experience as opposed to a smiley face with lots of good ideas with little substance.

He showed he can lie trump like, the new norm (teach your children well.tui) , hosking was handing him a spade:t_up:. He will never be trusted or believed again. What happened to honest bill?

craic
20-09-2017, 09:59 PM
Honest Bill will be the NZ Prime Minister when you wake up on Sunday morning - live with it. And the tax cut he promised for the new year will occur - Jacinda was going to cancel it or so she claimed.

Joshuatree
20-09-2017, 10:55 PM
I haven't got a Tardus craic where did you get yours from:p. Its close is the most accurate one can say imo.

Jacinda will cancel the tax cut and put the money into badly needed social and health services because national have not looked after or valued their citizens; simple as that ;they don't care enough; instead they have fiddled for 9 long years while suicide , depression, poverty, homelessness, people dying while waiting for operations that never come and peoples quality of life deteriorating while waiting.

If you haven't got health insurance you are not valued; just thrown on the pile. Then there is the environment and water issues which national also hasn't faced up to etc. Get the DRIFT?

On top of all that we have a prime minister who is prepared to blatantly lie in front of the whole country in tonights debate about an imaginary fiscal hole that ONLY he and Joyce can see. Talk about digging a bigger HOLE for himself. He can NEVER be believed again. What happened to honest bill, corrupted by power?

iceman
21-09-2017, 03:59 AM
I haven't got a Tardus craic where did you get yours from:p. Its close is the most accurate one can say imo.

Jacinda will cancel the tax cut and put the money into badly needed social and health services because national have not looked after or valued their citizens; simple as that ;they don't care enough; instead they have fiddled for 9 long years while suicide , depression, poverty, homelessness, people dying while waiting for operations that never come and peoples quality of life deteriorating while waiting.

If you haven't got health insurance you are not valued; just thrown on the pile. Then there is the environment and water issues which national also hasn't faced up to etc. Get the DRIFT?

On top of all that we have a prime minister who is prepared to blatantly lie in front of the whole country in tonights debate about an imaginary fiscal hole that ONLY he and Joyce can see. Talk about digging a bigger HOLE for himself. He can NEVER be believed again. What happened to honest bill, corrupted by power?

JT I think we all know what you think with your umpteen negative and confrontational posts. Polls on both Stuff and NZ Herald have Bill as the clear favourite from last night's debate. I thought Taxinda did well in the first 2 debates but she was completely hopeless last night and is being shown up for having little or no substance. She was "fustrated" about Bill pointing out people will be paying higher income taxes from 1 April 2018 should she become PM. But that is a fact, not "lying or smearing".

minimoke
21-09-2017, 05:58 AM
Sounds like a first world prob for you mm......... (p is a poverty drug), poverty ,.

I don't still don't know where you get your stuff. But it seems I have been totally screed by successive governments because I am so poor I cant even afford P. But on reflection I think it might be because I am putting some of my money into my unaffordable house - keeps me out of my polluting car at night though.

If you want a descriptor for P then it is a "Decision Drug". In the beginning someone is deciding to sell and someone is deciding to buy. And you want me to fund the consequences of their decisions.

About time you faced the real problem. Poverty in so many cases is about bad decisions. The first thing to do is to put resource into ensuring people make better decisions. What does labour say about that?

minimoke
21-09-2017, 06:06 AM
If you haven't got health insurance you are not valued; I'm wondering what you drug of choice is. I don't care that you are taking it but I am worried it is impacting your thought processes when it comes to deciding our next government. Walk into any public hospial and you wil see it full of valued people.


Then there is the environment and water issues which national also hasn't faced up to etc. Get the DRIFT?

If Labour was serious about the environment and rivers they would introduce a Polluters Penalty and it would apply to every citizen - not just farmers who are industrial engine house of this country.

Get your people to run an honest poll. "If you were to pay $100 for your pollution to fund a clean up of country and city rivers, lakes and sea would you support that tax". The results would be 5% would support it because every one else doesn't think they pollute.

winner69
21-09-2017, 08:14 AM
https://croakingcassandra.com/2017/09/20/the-political-cone-of-silence-with-slurs/

A pretty poor response from a high ranking Nat who happens to be the Attorney General

Didn't even know he was standing in my electorate - shows you how hard he trying

I too surprised not much said about the background of this MP Jian Yang - maybe Labour part of the deal.

minimoke
21-09-2017, 08:21 AM
https://croakingcassandra.com/2017/09/20/the-political-cone-of-silence-with-slurs/

A pretty poor response from a high ranking Nat who happens to be the Attorney General

Didn't even know he was standing in my electorate - shows you how hard he trying

I too surprised not much said about the background of this MP Jian Yang - maybe Labour part of the deal.
The guy on the floor was probably a labour supporter given his numerical skills. He had an opportunity to ask one question. There were three as far as I could see.

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 09:05 AM
Very pertinent point for all parties to address and an embarrassing gaffe from the Attorney General.

"As Professor Brady put it in her paper, the fear of giving any offence to the government of the People’s Republic of China – a brutal and aggressive dictatorship – seems to have been raised to a defining feature of New Zealand politics, and not just by National.
We saw it on display tonight, nowhere more so than in the despicable performance by our Attorney-General and first law officer (http://www.crownlaw.govt.nz/about-us/law-officers/). How safe is our democracy, our values and freedoms, our laws, in such hands?"

minimoke
21-09-2017, 09:43 AM
Very pertinent point for all parties to address and an embarrassing gaffe from the Attorney General.

"As Professor Brady put it in her paper, the fear of giving any offence to the government of the People’s Republic of China – a brutal and aggressive dictatorship – seems to have been raised to a defining feature of New Zealand politics, and not just by National.
We saw it on display tonight, nowhere more so than in the despicable performance by our Attorney-General and first law officer (http://www.crownlaw.govt.nz/about-us/law-officers/). How safe is our democracy, our values and freedoms, our laws, in such hands?"
"First Law Officer" - I cant keep up with the stuff that just gets made up on the fly. To the originator - "you're not in Bombay now Mr Riddell".

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 09:49 AM
Alternative facts . Bill is dealing out to New Zealanders.
Fake news from bill english now a nz norm.
Post truth politics.

rightly called out National (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/patrick-gower-national-playing-post-truth-politics.html)

"the truth is - for Bill English - the truth on tax doesn't matter anymore."

minimoke
21-09-2017, 10:02 AM
Alternative facts . Bill is dealing out to New Zealanders.
Fake news from bill english now a nz norm.
Post truth politics.

rightly called out National (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/patrick-gower-national-playing-post-truth-politics.html)

"the truth is - for Bill English - the truth on tax doesn't matter anymore."
It really isn't difficult . Labour will need to pass a law that moves the 10.5% tax due on income from $22,000 to $14,000 on 1 April 2018. That is an increase in tax paid by those earning more than $14,000

If you support labour passing laws that impact negatively on the most vulnerable go for it. But dont go bleating "poverty"!

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 10:05 AM
You still haven't posted on all the benefits labour are going out esp to families. Come on out with it.

minimoke
21-09-2017, 10:13 AM
You still haven't posted on all the benefits labour are going out esp to families. Come on out with it.
Lets see. They are tweaking their beneficiary base with some changes to Working for Families.

Paying people who cant afford children more.

Paying aucklanders more to stay there.

Is that a good enough start?

Snow Leopard
21-09-2017, 10:58 AM
The last time I was allowed to vote would have been 2008 as I had not that long moved to Melbourne, I have not been eligible since.

But today an advert for the Nats keeps popping up in web-browsers, I won't copy it here but I do notice that 'Proven leader' Bill is in tunnel with a hand in his pocket and is definitely leaning to his left.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

westerly
21-09-2017, 02:23 PM
26 posts today and counting. Is there a competion for the most posts ? If so minimoke is so far out in front he is out of sight.
Or could it be a sign of panic about who will win the election? :)

westerly

minimoke
21-09-2017, 02:34 PM
26 posts today and counting. Is there a competion for the most posts ? If so minimoke is so far out in front he is out of sight.
Or could it be a sign of panic about who will win the election? :)

westerly
I thought Elzorro and Joshuatree had had their fair share for a while. (oops - theres another one!)

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 03:19 PM
NZ's net migration up amid a record 132,000 arrivals (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/nzs-net-migration-up-amid-record-132-000-arrivals)

Our system is creaking and hasn't kept up.We have to reduce.

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 03:40 PM
10 REASONS FOR NOT VOTING NATIONAL

1. Ordinary people have been systematically denied their fair share of the country’s wealth.


2. For nine years, National’s response to climate change has been abysmal.

3. National has systematically underfunded the public health system.

4. National has systematically reduced the funding for mental health services


5. National has run its re-election 2017 campaign on a strategy of lies based on social divisiveness and fear of change.


6. National has demonstrated a systematic inability to recruit and retain teachers.


7. National has presided over huge rises in house prices, while selling off its existing stockservices.

8. National has been hostile to forward planning, especially with respect to alleviating poverty

9. National seems incapable of a significant response to youth suicide

10. National has sat on the sidelines while the student debt mountain has risen.


Ten Reasons For Not Voting National (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/09/ten-reasons-for-not-voting-national/)

BlackPeter
21-09-2017, 03:42 PM
Watched yesterday's leaders debate and thought that whatever happens, as country we can live with any of the leaders. Remember in contrast last year's US presidency debates? We don't know how lucky we are ...

Anyway - if I just compare the two leaders (ignoring their parties policies) - both appear genuine, I think both are honest (I know, JT ...) and both could do the job, but Bill obviously has significantly more experience.

Whom would you pick if this would be a decision for a CEO position in a company you are invested in? I know, whom ...

Looking into the major parties policies: Both have some plus sides - both have some negative sides and both have at least one area they should be highly embarrassed of. None of them looks like a clear winner to me.

Here is my unscientific and subjective election matrix:

Water / Environment

I like the fact that Labour is approaching this difficult subject and think that a royalty (or whatever fee or tax) on water would be a good way to encourage users to reduce wasting this precious resource and help to distribute it in a fairer way than currently (first in takes it all). I'd prefer to see a more mature policy though to make an informed decision.

Laws to have NZ carbon neutral by 2050 are in my view just a waste of time and paper. Any future government can change these time wasters. Lets judge the parties on what they propose to do during their terms.

Minor tick for Labour ...

Education

There are plenty of arguments for as well as against "free" education. Having said that - I grew up in a country in which education was and still is free (even for Kiwis studying there ...) and I think that the society overall benefits from this policy as long as there are some checks that the "free" education is useful for society as well (no free master degrees in belly dancing :).

I realise this is something which will increase tax levels, but I think this is an investment worthwhile to make.

However - Diversity is good, charter schools are (proven) good and I am concerned that the old boys teacher unions are only fighting them because they think they will undermine their power. The fight of the unions is pure selfishness and has nothing to do with concerns for the quality of education

A tick and a penalty for Labour;
Clear winner: ACT;

Justice:

I think Nationals strategy of being tough on crime has failed ... and their recent proposals to reduce human rights for members of gangs are unacceptable. However - Labour's proposal to replace the assumption of innocence in alleged sex crimes with a requirement for the accused to prove their innocence is unacceptable as well.

Shame on both large parties - just losers!


Immigration

Nationals immigration policy is pragmatic and sensible. Labours is populist and will damage our economy in the long run. Tick for National;

Housing

Both parties are responsible for the ridiculous situation - Labour for creating our current resource management act and National for not changing it.

ACT +1 for addressing the root cause.

Tax:

I guess good that Labour retracted from deciding about a huge bunch of punitive taxes without asking the voters, but bad on them for doing this just under pressure. Jacinda lost a lot of credibility by originally pushing Labours ridiculous tax policy and than Flip-Flopping.

While there may be better ways to structure our tax system (very subjective, though) - is this really our biggest problem? I guess the answer to that is only Yes if you promise too many lollies (as Labour does) and than need to pay for it.

Tick for ACT;
small tick for National;

Australia

Australians are treating Kiwis as cheap guest labour - and if they don't need or like them anymore they send them home. Kiwis are allowed to pay the full tax in Australia, but they are not entitled to the benefits.

Good on Jacinda (+1) for promising that she will reiterate ... and a pity Bill (-1) kept his tail between his legs.


OK - I guess it will be this time my party vote for ACT ... and supporting our local National candidate (Amy Adams) - she is a good, caring and efficient MP.

Hoping however that Labour will offer the next three years a better opposition than they used to ... and who knows what happens then - they had this time more ticks from me than in a long time ;)

blackcap
21-09-2017, 03:47 PM
Watched yesterday's leaders debate and thought that whatever happens, as country we can live with any of the leaders. Remember in contrast last year's US presidency debates? We don't know how lucky we are ...

Anyway - if I just compare the two leaders (ignoring their parties policies) - both appear genuine, I think both are honest (I know, JT ...) and both could do the job, but Bill obviously has significantly more experience.

Whom would you pick if this would be a decision for a CEO position in a company you are invested in? I know, whom ...

Looking into the major parties policies: Both have some plus sides - both have some negative sides and both have at least one area they should be highly embarrassed of. None of them looks like a clear winner to me.

Here is my unscientific and subjective election matrix:

Water / Environment

I like the fact that Labour is approaching this difficult subject and think that a royalty (or whatever fee or tax) on water would be a good way to encourage users to reduce wasting this precious resource and help to distribute it in a fairer way than currently (first in takes it all). I'd prefer to see a more mature policy though to make an informed decision.

Laws to have NZ carbon neutral by 2050 are in my view just a waste of time and paper. Any future government can change these time wasters. Lets judge the parties on what they propose to do during their terms.

Minor tick for Labour ...

Education

There are plenty of arguments for as well as against "free" education. Having said that - I grew up in a country in which education was and still is free (even for Kiwis studying there ...) and I think that the society overall benefits from this policy as long as there are some checks that the "free" education is useful for society as well (no free master degrees in belly dancing :).

I realise this is something which will increase tax levels, but I think this is an investment worthwhile to make.

However - Diversity is good, charter schools are (proven) good and I am concerned that the old boys teacher unions are only fighting them because they think they will undermine their power. The fight of the unions is pure selfishness and has nothing to do with concerns for the quality of education

A tick and a penalty for Labour;
Clear winner: ACT;

Justice:

I think Nationals strategy of being tough on crime has failed ... and their recent proposals to reduce human rights for members of gangs are unacceptable. However - Labour's proposal to replace the assumption of innocence in alleged sex crimes with a requirement for the accused to prove their innocence is unacceptable as well.

Shame on both large parties - just losers!


Immigration

Nationals immigration policy is pragmatic and sensible. Labours is populist and will damage our economy in the long run. Tick for National;

Housing

Both parties are responsible for the ridiculous situation - Labour for creating our current resource management act and National for not changing it.

ACT +1 for addressing the root cause.

Tax:

I guess good that Labour retracted from deciding about a huge bunch of punitive taxes without asking the voters, but bad on them for doing this just under pressure. Jacinda lost a lot of credibility by originally pushing Labours ridiculous tax policy and than Flip-Flopping.

While there may be better ways to structure our tax system (very subjective, though) - is this really our biggest problem? I guess the answer to that is only Yes if you promise too many lollies (as Labour does) and than need to pay for it.

Tick for ACT;
small tick for National;

Australia

Australians are treating Kiwis as cheap guest labour - and if they don't need or like them anymore they send them home. Kiwis are allowed to pay the full tax in Australia, but they are not entitled to the benefits.

Good on Jacinda (+1) for promising that she will reiterate ... and a pity Bill (-1) kept his tail between his legs.


OK - I guess it will be this time my party vote for ACT ... and supporting our local National candidate (Amy Adams) - she is a good, caring and efficient MP.

Hoping however that Labour will offer the next three years a better opposition than they used to ... and who knows what happens then - they had this time more ticks from me than in a long time ;)

Nice synopsis thanks, good to see your vote going to ACT this time. They may require only another 30k votes to get 2 seats. That would be superb. Some thing to build on anyway.

Adam H
21-09-2017, 04:04 PM
Whom would you pick if this would be a decision for a CEO position in a company you are invested in? I know, whom ...

I think this is where a lot of peoples political views differ. A CEO's job is to make a company as profitable as possible. I think that National takes this philosophy, except the 'company' is the 'economy'. I would argue a govt should not be run this way. It is not just about making the most profit, it is about doing what is best for all New Zealanders as a whole.

fungus pudding
21-09-2017, 04:38 PM
I think this is where a lot of peoples political views differ. A CEO's job is to make a company as profitable as possible. I think that National takes this philosophy, except the 'company' is the 'economy'. I would argue a govt should not be run this way. It is not just about making the most profit, it is about doing what is best for all New Zealanders as a whole.

Governments don't make a profit. They can't. They may run a surplus or a deficit. And unless they get the economy right - you can forget about anything else they want to do.

Adam H
21-09-2017, 05:15 PM
Governments don't make a profit. They can't. They may run a surplus or a deficit. And unless they get the economy right - you can forget about anything else they want to do.

Yes the govt doesn't make a profit, however BlackPeter was equating being a good CEO (good at making a profit) as being a good PM. I was a little sloppy in my wording.

As for your second point, when is the economy right? At what point can we start doing the other things? Its a question of balance. I think that NZ has a decent economy already and we could do some of those 'other things' now. Whats the point in a great economy if you have a plethora of social issues caused in large part by an ever increasing wealth inequality?

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 08:01 PM
The BSA decision on 'Let's Tax This' says to political parties: 'lie all you like' (https://thespinoff.co.nz/media/21-09-2017/the-bsa-decision-on-lets-tax-this-says-to-political-parties-lie-all-you-like/)

A very good article with pertinent points. Nothing surprising, just the usual fear mongering by national.

"(I should note that the ASA and BSA were looking at slightly different things. The ASA had to decide whether the ad created an overall impression, which directly or by implication, omission, ambiguity or exaggerated claim was misleading or deceptive, or likely to mislead or deceive the consumer. Since it was an advocacy ad, they also had to decide whether it expressed opinion which was clearly distinguishable from factual information. The BSA had to decide whether the factual information was clearly distinguishable from opinion or advocacy, but did not need to rule on whether it was otherwise misleading)."

"The real harm here is that a substantial number of viewers will be deceived into thinking that these really are Labour’s policies. And that might affect their vote. That harm is deepened by the fact that tax is an issue that affects everybody seriously. And is central to the differences between the parties. And is hard to understand. All of that should lead to the conclusion that there is a better-than-usual justification for holding advertisers to account for the accuracy of their claims. I think the ASA and BSA, both of whom barely mention this, have seriously underestimated the potential harm here. It is not putting it too strongly to wonder whether the misleading claims in this ad have contributed to the apparent significant late swing against Labour."

jonu
21-09-2017, 08:30 PM
The BSA decision on 'Let's Tax This' says to political parties: 'lie all you like' (https://thespinoff.co.nz/media/21-09-2017/the-bsa-decision-on-lets-tax-this-says-to-political-parties-lie-all-you-like/)

A very good article with pertinent points. Nothing surprising, just the usual fear mongering by national.

"(I should note that the ASA and BSA were looking at slightly different things. The ASA had to decide whether the ad created an overall impression, which directly or by implication, omission, ambiguity or exaggerated claim was misleading or deceptive, or likely to mislead or deceive the consumer. Since it was an advocacy ad, they also had to decide whether it expressed opinion which was clearly distinguishable from factual information. The BSA had to decide whether the factual information was clearly distinguishable from opinion or advocacy, but did not need to rule on whether it was otherwise misleading)."

"The real harm here is that a substantial number of viewers will be deceived into thinking that these really are Labour’s policies. And that might affect their vote. That harm is deepened by the fact that tax is an issue that affects everybody seriously. And is central to the differences between the parties. And is hard to understand. All of that should lead to the conclusion that there is a better-than-usual justification for holding advertisers to account for the accuracy of their claims. I think the ASA and BSA, both of whom barely mention this, have seriously underestimated the potential harm here. It is not putting it too strongly to wonder whether the misleading claims in this ad have contributed to the apparent significant late swing against Labour."

An article (you forget to mention) by one of the complainants who, unsurprisingly, doesn't agree with not one, but two decisions made against him.

blackcap
21-09-2017, 08:44 PM
An article (you forget to mention) by one of the complainants who, unsurprisingly, doesn't agree with not one, but two decisions made against him.

I think that is what they call dirty politics. JT seems to be well versed in the art. Good on him, that is what politics is by definition. (ie if its not dirty, its not politics.

Joshuatree
21-09-2017, 08:46 PM
Its pretty obvious if you read the whole article and sounds like bias by the ASA and BSA to me.Sure wasn't an ad based on opinion it was telling the usual national fabrications. So its not just what happened to honest bill its spread through the whole national party; gone viral, they are contaminated, tainted delusionists; illusionists, snake oil salesmen imo. No values.

jonu
22-09-2017, 06:19 AM
Its pretty obvious if you read the whole article and sounds like bias by the ASA and BSA to me.Sure wasn't an ad based on opinion it was telling the usual national fabrications. So its not just what happened to honest bill its spread through the whole national party; gone viral, they are contaminated, tainted delusionists; illusionists, snake oil salesmen imo. No values.

Oh dear JT, the froth is starting again. Did you think it a good idea to start your teeth gnashing early? Is everybody else as nasty and tainted as you say, or have you just lost the plot?

blackcap
22-09-2017, 06:25 AM
Its pretty obvious if you read the whole article and sounds like bias by the ASA and BSA to me.Sure wasn't an ad based on opinion it was telling the usual national fabrications. So its not just what happened to honest bill its spread through the whole national party; gone viral, they are contaminated, tainted delusionists; illusionists, snake oil salesmen imo. No values.

And by the looks of the markets, going to get another 3 years in government.

Although to be fair if Nats needed Winston to govern I don't think I would like that. I would prefer Winston went with a Green/Labour/NZF coalition which would blow up within a year and guarantee the right another 9 years. My fear is that a Nat NZF coalition will not work well and that will gift the left a few terms in office.

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 07:17 AM
Too close to call is the most accurate assessment imo. Im hoping people make a decision based on honesty and values and policies that will help people rather than 9 year old policies and govt that have made a point of keeping the gap between the rich and the poor; a divisive unhealthy system.

Essentialy truth against fiction LABOUR

Action against fiddling LABOUR

Patients being treated not left to die. People VALUED. LABOUR

Depression and suicide addressed. This is a huge issue and getting bigger. LABOUR

Funding for addiction therapy esp the poverty drug Meth. LABOUR

Environment healed and pollution removed LABOUR

Housing back to a reasonable situation with 100,000 houses in 10 years. LABOUR
State building more houses Not selling them off LABOUR

POVERTY Reduced. People treated compassionately LABOUR


None of the above National 9 years of not caring ENOUGH.

SIMPLE CHOICE

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 07:18 AM
Oh dear JT, the froth is starting again. Did you think it a good idea to start your teeth gnashing early? Is everybody else as nasty and tainted as you say, or have you just lost the plot?

You do sound and act like one of them jonu, gold teeth more important?

iceman
22-09-2017, 07:31 AM
You do sound and act like one of them jonu, gold teeth more important?

What on earth are you going on about JT ? Yet again personal attacks. You should be ashamed of how you've attacked just about every poster that doesn't agree with your many childish post on here over the last few weeks. Relentlessly positive my a..e.

winner69
22-09-2017, 07:34 AM
NZ's net migration up amid a record 132,000 arrivals (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/nzs-net-migration-up-amid-record-132-000-arrivals)

Our system is creaking and hasn't kept up.We have to reduce.



....with the inevitable recession to follow ...and a Labour austerity plan to follow

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 07:46 AM
The alternative as national have done picking the low hung fruit, allowing any number of immigrants, many who contribute less than refugees but use our free services which aren't coping, our roads clogged, our health system letting people die , our houses bought as investments.
Yeah sure carry on regardless and watch our house prices become the most expensive in the world 11 x a salary.
In the 70's 2 x a salary

Its sick country relying on the health of it by pumping in more and more immigrants . UNBELEIVABLE that it has been allowed to get to this!!

minimoke
22-09-2017, 08:01 AM
The alternative as national have done picking the low hung fruit, allowing any number of immigrants, many who contribute less than refugees but use our free services which aren't coping, our roads clogged, our health system letting people die , our houses bought as investments.
Yeah sure carry on regardless and watch our house prices become the most expensive in the world 11 x a salary.
In the 70's 2 x a salary

Its sick country relying on the health of it by pumping in more and more immigrants . UNBELEIVABLE that it has been allowed to get to this!!
C'mon JT. You have time to post on this thread. Why not pop over to the other excellent one where you get to lay your thoughts on the actual election outcome on the line - not your hopes or wishes

couta1
22-09-2017, 08:29 AM
An article this morning on stuff titled Fair pay or National Awards outlining Labour's Fair pay agreement signaling a major change in industrial relations. The problem is that just like their tax policies, we have to wait until after the election to find out the level of destruction they want to impose. Same old Labour wanting to take us back into the dark ages and screw over productive business.

blackcap
22-09-2017, 08:29 AM
Stop whining Jacinda, if you can claim National cut health then they can claim you are putting up taxes
by Cameron Slater on September 22, 2017 at 8:30am


Jacinda Ardern has decided to drop the relentlessly positive campaign and start the relentlessly whining campaign.



Jacinda Ardern has spoken out about her frustration with the National party campaign, saying they are misleading voters over Labour’s tax plans.

While on the campaign trail today Ms Ardern was asked if Labour was raising income tax, a false claim that National have made.

When asked whether she could have hit back harder against the claim Ms Ardern replied:


“I’ve absolutely taken them on every time that they’ve said we would increase income tax. I thought it was a farcical claim when they raised it, it continues to be, I certainly didn’t expect people to have picked up on it as they have.

“The only place for blame to go is on the party that has spun the lie.”

Ms Ardern said right now there is urgency for Labour that goes beyond correcting National. “I would ask voters to think about whether they can afford another three years of National.”

Two days out from the election and Jacinda Ardern is whining about her flawed narrative about tax.

It is a bit rich of Labour to complain about lies. For years now they have lied that National had cut the health budget.

It isn’t a lie for National to say Labour will increase taxes from where they would be if National was in government with their legislated tax cuts.

Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson have only themselves to blame for the narrative of the election being taxation.

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 08:32 AM
This low wage economy is a joke everyone needs a LIVING wage not a SUBSISTING wage. national thinks thats ok, "Let them eat McDonalds" We need a party that VALUES its citizens.

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 08:35 AM
Cameron slaters blog is the lowest of the low imo, not worthy in any form of language or discussion. I know national have dragged behaviour to a new low in this country . If you are ok about this put them together and lets have race to the bottom of the barrel

minimoke
22-09-2017, 08:43 AM
Ms Ardern said right now there is urgency for Labour that goes beyond correcting National. “I would ask voters to think about whether they can afford another three years of National.”.There is a better chance with them affording it with the 2018 tax schedules rather than Labours increase which will see the voters $1,000 worse off.

minimoke
22-09-2017, 08:46 AM
This low wage economy is a joke everyone needs a LIVING wage .They already have one. Its called Minimum Wage which fits well with those with minimum skill. Beyond that get paid your worth. There's also Working For Families which is a minimum living wage for those that cant afford kids and need a govt to prop them up.

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 08:47 AM
Are you Bill english moonlighting as mm? Seriously because I'm sure that misinformation has come out of his mouth.

iceman
22-09-2017, 09:20 AM
An article this morning on stuff titled Fair pay or National Awards outlining Labour's Fair pay agreement signaling a major change in industrial relations. The problem is that just like their tax policies, we have to wait until after the election to find out the level of destruction they want to impose. Same old Labour wanting to take us back into the dark ages and screw over productive business.

I saw an interview on the AM show yesterday with an employment lawyer/expert where she was talking about Labour's industrial relations policy that somehow has gone under the radar. Yet again the useless media has failed to do their job and are too busy going on about issues that are not important. This Labour policy simply looks quite scary at a glance but of course we have very little detail, like all their other policies, to make an informed decision on.

minimoke
22-09-2017, 09:41 AM
I saw an interview on the AM show yesterday with an employment lawyer/expert where she was talking about Labour's industrial relations policy that somehow has gone under the radar. Yet again the useless media has failed to do their job and are too busy going on about issues that are not important. This Labour policy simply looks quite scary at a glance but of course we have very little detail, like all their other policies, to make an informed decision on.
It is a very scary policy. It will take us back to the 1970's. Except its more an enforced National Award (with no detail on how it is going to be negotiated) and will see unions (not members) empowered to strike much more easily. There are other things lurking in the background that will potentially put employers out of business - Labour has been deathly silent on that!

winner69
22-09-2017, 09:41 AM
Whatever happens tomorrow life will just go on with the government continuing to tinker around the edges

Nothing dramatic will happen ...and we need to wait until 2020 to moan again and call for change.

Still hoping for a revolution

fungus pudding
22-09-2017, 09:51 AM
Whatever happens tomorrow life will just go on with the government continuing to tinker around the edges

Nothing dramatic will happen ...and we need to wait until 2020 to moan again and call for change.

Still hoping for a revolution

i reckon he'll go with National. They will have the largest number of seats. Labour/Greens would not suit him - too much madness in the kermit mob. I think National, Act and Winston could be good if Winston decides to be sensible. They could be a very popular govt.

minimoke
22-09-2017, 10:07 AM
I saw an interview on the AM show yesterday with an employment lawyer/expert where she was talking about Labour's industrial relations policy that somehow has gone under the radar. Yet again the useless media has failed to do their job and are too busy going on about issues that are not important. This Labour policy simply looks quite scary at a glance but of course we have very little detail, like all their other policies, to make an informed decision on.
This should go on the Labout thread - but to keep the trail going theri policy is
Within the first 100 days in Government, Labour will:
• Remove the discrimination that prevents film and television workers bargaining collectively.
• Restore unions’ right to initiate collective bargaining in advance of employers.
• Restore the duty on parties who are in collective bargaining, including those in multi-employer collective bargaining, to reach an agreement once bargaining has been initiated unless there is a genuine reason not to.
• Restore the right for new workers to be employed on the same terms and conditions as provided by an existing collective agreement covering their workplace.
• Remove the ability for employers to deduct pay from workers taking low level protest action during an industrial dispute.
• Protect the human right to belong to a union by restoring the right for people to be visited by union representatives at their workplace to ensure their legal and collective rights are maintained and adhered to.
• Ensure elected union workplace representatives are given reasonable time within the workplace or work unit to carry out their representative role.
• Increase protection against discrimination based on union membership and strengthen the integrity of collective bargaining by tightening the rules on employers automatically passing on terms and conditions to non-union workers.
• Ensure new workers have all necessary information and access to unions at the commencement of their employment.
• Implement the changes to the Equal Pay Act as set out in the report from the Joint Working Group on Pay Equity Principles to give all women in female-dominated workforces access to collective bargaining and court processes to settle their claims.
Within the first 12 months in Government, Labour will:
• In conjunction with all relevant stakeholders, develop and introduce a legislative system of industry and sector collective bargaining that allows unions and employers, with the assistance of the Employment Relations Authority, to create Fair Pay Agreements that set minimum conditions, such as wages, allowances, weekend and night rates, hours of work and leave arrangements for workers across an industry based on the employment standards that apply in that industry.
• Extend the right to organise and bargain collectively to contractors who primarily sell their labour.
• Investigate measures that improve job security for people in precarious forms of employment (for example, labour hire, casual, seasonal, contracted or sub-contracted workers).
• Review bargaining fee arrangements to ensure they are fair to workers, the union, and employers for the extension of collective bargaining outcomes to non-unionised workers.
• Review multi-employer and multi-union collective bargaining arrangements to encourage their use and to support the development of Fair Pay Agreements.

BlackPeter
22-09-2017, 10:17 AM
i reckon he'll go with National. They will have the largest number of seats. Labour/Greens would not suit him - too much madness in the kermit mob. I think National, Act and Winston could be good if Winston decides to be sensible. They could be a very popular govt.

Talk about the lesser evil ...

I agree that Winston / National / Act would be better than Winston / Labour / Green, however - it still would not be a good government. The problem is Winston - you see.

On the other hand - so far no major party survived more than one term with Winston in government. Forming a coalition with NZF seems to be a guaranteed ticket for the opposition banks comes next election.

Maybe a short painful and chaotic episode with Winston / Labour / Green followed by another long and settled period with a National / ACT government might be preferable to having now a mediocre Winston / National / ACT coalition followed by a long Labour reign.

I don't know, but against the odds am I still hoping that whatever happens, it won't be Winston calling the shots.

Investor
22-09-2017, 10:26 AM
This low wage economy is a joke everyone needs a LIVING wage not a SUBSISTING wage. national thinks thats ok, "Let them eat McDonalds" We need a party that VALUES its citizens.

You get what you pay for.

winner69
22-09-2017, 10:27 AM
Does there need to be majority government.....or will Winston insist there has to be

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 10:40 AM
You get what you pay for.

i sure hope so:t_up: Value for all.

blackcap
22-09-2017, 10:41 AM
Interesting Synopsis on the bottles water scam: (taken from Kiwiblog)

Yesterday on Morning Report ( go to http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201859010/ardern-responds-after-farmers-protest-in-home-town ) when being interviewed by Guyon Espiner, Jacinda Ardern stated (just after 2 minutes 30 seconds and again at 9 minutes 20 second) that the tax would be ten times that proposed for water abstracted for irrigation. That irrigation rate is between 1 and 2 cents per tonne.

So now we know what the bottled water tax will be – between 10 and 20 cents per tonne.

This will raise negligible quantities of tax; so little in fact that it wouldn’t be worth collecting.


Here are the sums:

According to a Coriolis report for MBIE go to http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/food-beverage/documents-image-library/folder-2017-investors-guides/investors-guide-to-the-new-zealand-beverages-industry-2017.pdf the exports of bottled water in 2015 were valued at $7 million and the average price per litre was $0.61, giving a sales volume of 11.47 million litres.

Supermarket sales of bottled water sales over the past year were 37 million litres. I do not have the figures for bottled water sales from other outlets such as dairies, self service dispensers and petrol stations etc, but assuming that these were half of total domestic sales, that would add another 37 million litres of bottled water sales.

Adding domestic and exported bottled water sales together gives us total sales of 85.47 million litres.

That is 85,470 tonnes of water. At between 10 and 20 cents per tonne total revenue collected would be between $8547 and $17094 per annum.

That would not even cover the cost of superannuation for one retired couple for one year. Even if my assumptions on volumes sold domestically through outlets other than supermarkets were only half actual annual sales, the revenue collected would still be negligible.

I pointed out months ago how pathetic a tax on bottled water would be, that the candle wasn’t worth the wick. It would cost more to administer it than it would raise.

But this just shows how inept they are with their policy making. Basically they are just making policy on the basis of how it sounds. A few hours, days or weeks later the policy falls to bits once experts grapple with the lack of information.

As Farrar points out this allows Labour to fund one more married pensioner couple.

So Labour’s tax on bottled water will bring in enough revenue to pay for one extra couple on superannuation!! In fact it won’t even do that as the extra public servants needed to administer the bottled water tax will cost more than the tax brings in.

It was a daft idea, and now Labour has ensured it will never fly because they are being mocked mercilessly over it.

Again this gives credence to Steve Joyce’s claims that Labour has a very deep fiscal hole and their numbers don’t make sense.

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 10:50 AM
Steven Joyce has No credibility left; he has already been demoted if/when national lose; why because he is an embarrassment, a compulsive liar imo.I really believe this after what I've witnessed.

Water royalties are needed to start cleaning up the mess that national haven't had the cajones or care to fix in 9 years; we need VALUES.

couta1
22-09-2017, 12:07 PM
After Helen Clark left, Labour has been a ship without a rudder until Taxcinda come along, unfortunately that rudder is far too small to steer the large derelict ship Labour has become in any sort of meaningful direction.

Joshuatree
22-09-2017, 01:49 PM
Ardern values human beings .They are not a commodity to dump on the scrapheap if they don't have private medical insurance, can't get a house or are in a poverty trap and or addicted to a poverty drug(P).

She also values our environment, Education ,not letting an endless number of immigrants in etc etc. National have been drifting for 9 years with no rudder , no steering wheel, no care .
They discovered poverty last week and are throwing phantom carrots everywhere.
They are transparent in their corrupted lust for power imo. I believe they have been corrupted by power with their continual pushing the $11 billion dollar hole still even now as proof.
Whatever happened to honest bill?. We can do better than this.

fungus pudding
22-09-2017, 09:29 PM
After the last three years of ridiculous posts from eZ, he has been very quiet for a day or so. Is he preparing for the worst? Preparing to leave the country? Getting prepared for a further 3 years under his beloved (not) government? Emotionally adjusting to another new leader for Labour? Do not worry eZ. Your friends are here to stand by you. If National happen to walk away with the prize, nobody on this forum would be cruel enough to rub it in. Maybe.

huxley
22-09-2017, 09:59 PM
My own view is that this planet is used as a penal colony, lunatic asylum and dumping ground by a superior civilisation, to get rid of the undesirable and unfit. I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either.

elZorro
23-09-2017, 04:45 PM
After the last three years of ridiculous posts from eZ, he has been very quiet for a day or so. Is he preparing for the worst? Preparing to leave the country? Getting prepared for a further 3 years under his beloved (not) government? Emotionally adjusting to another new leader for Labour? Do not worry eZ. Your friends are here to stand by you. If National happen to walk away with the prize, nobody on this forum would be cruel enough to rub it in. Maybe.

I've been busy helping remove hoardings, part of the democratic process you know. But soon I'll have plenty of time, and be allowed to make comments. I reckon the "Not National" vote will be the majority. Hoping for a big turnout on a nice sunny day.

Voting stops at 7pm.

blackcap
23-09-2017, 04:51 PM
I've been busy helping remove hoardings, part of the democratic process you know. But soon I'll have plenty of time, and be allowed to make comments. I reckon the "Not National" vote will be the majority. Hoping for a big turnout on a nice sunny day.

Voting stops at 7pm.

Good on you. I respect that. You are obviously passionate about politics and your party and willing to do the hard yards. I on the other hand have not helped any party one iota. We will disagree on ideology but good on you for doing the best for your side. Have a good evening and commiserations if its not the result you want. (I am having a weak moment here :))

fungus pudding
23-09-2017, 05:02 PM
I've been busy helping remove hoardings, part of the democratic process you know. But soon I'll have plenty of time, and be allowed to make comments. I reckon the "Not National" vote will be the majority. Hoping for a big turnout on a nice sunny day.

Voting stops at 7pm.

What a silly thing to say.

minimoke
23-09-2017, 05:29 PM
I've been busy helping remove hoardings, part of the democratic process you know. .Once again more mis-information. It is a legal requirement - so failure to do so leaves someone liable for an offence.

fungus pudding
23-09-2017, 06:09 PM
Not long now before the results start rolling in. I sure hope eZ's got his nappies on.

winner69
23-09-2017, 06:26 PM
Just as well Labour always come home with a late rush - way behind at the moment (10% counted)

winner69
23-09-2017, 06:40 PM
Hope at least one Maori seat goes Maori or else Maori are toast

Not looking good

blackcap
23-09-2017, 06:49 PM
Hope at least one Maori seat goes Maori or else Maori are toast

Not looking good

Yeah not looking good at all. Flavell is their best hope at best...

fungus pudding
23-09-2017, 06:49 PM
Must be due to reveal the early voting.

winner69
23-09-2017, 06:53 PM
Northland not a push over for Winnie ....be funny if FNZ goes belwo 5% - but at 7.1% after 20% counted should just scrape in ...boo

blackcap
23-09-2017, 06:56 PM
Must be due to reveal the early voting.

61% already counted and in...

http://electionresults.govt.nz/advance-votes.html

winner69
23-09-2017, 07:05 PM
61% already counted and in...

http://electionresults.govt.nz/advance-votes.html

61% of early votes only

Nat supporters voted early and the majority of Labour supporters left it to today ....so Labour will win ...good theory somebody in this house just said

blackcap
23-09-2017, 07:06 PM
61% of early votes only

Nat supporters voted early and the majority of Labour supporters left it to today ....so Labour will win ...good theory somebody in this house just said

Yeah I know, Winner, but I was responding to FP who was wondering when the early vote wave was going to come.

Um not looking too good for Winston in Northland. But he will get in on the 5%+ by the looks of it.

winner69
23-09-2017, 07:14 PM
Yeah I know, Winner, but I was responding to FP who was wondering when the early vote wave was going to come.

Um not looking too good for Winston in Northland. But he will get in on the 5%+ by the looks of it.

Sorry mate

How you see Maori seats ending up

winner69
23-09-2017, 07:15 PM
If Jacinda losses I hope she is a gracious loser

blackcap
23-09-2017, 07:17 PM
Sorry mate

How you see Maori seats ending up

No need to say sorry. Unsure if Flavell can get up, the swing to Labour will be helping Coffey and that may be the crucial factor. Time will tell. He is behind by quite a large % at this stage....

http://electionresults.govt.nz/electorate-details-71.html

winner69
23-09-2017, 07:19 PM
Early days but National over 46% is a HUGE endorsement of Bill

winner69
23-09-2017, 07:39 PM
Wonder what JT and EZ are up to?

winner69
23-09-2017, 07:48 PM
So 33% voted and the gap between NAT and LAB is slowly increasing and over 10% points ...weird

If LAB going to come with a late rush it better start soon

Investor
23-09-2017, 07:50 PM
National!!

fungus pudding
23-09-2017, 07:53 PM
Wonder what JT and EZ are up to?

Pushing buttons on their calculators while kneeling in their mats talking to Allah.

winner69
23-09-2017, 08:24 PM
56% counted and it's getting worse for LAB ....even South Auckland won't save them this time

blackcap
23-09-2017, 08:26 PM
56% counted and it's getting worse for LAB ....even South Auckland won't save them this time

Could even be worse for them this time with the abortion thing. Depends on what the Ministers have been telling the flock on Sunday...

winner69
23-09-2017, 08:26 PM
Interesting as more of today's votes are counted the GRN % is falling ....hmm

blackcap
23-09-2017, 08:27 PM
Interesting as more of today's votes are counted the GRN % is falling ....hmm

remember that most of the votes counted are advance votes though.... generally this is the farmers and rural people... maybe the city greens just voted on the day.

winner69
23-09-2017, 08:39 PM
remember that most of the votes counted are advance votes though.... generally this is the farmers and rural people... maybe the city greens just voted on the day.

At the 66% mark 955k advance votes and 610k today votes

And GP % has fallen once todays votes started coming in ...might reverse though

minimoke
23-09-2017, 09:19 PM
Still early at 10.15pm but National at 46.3% can only be described as an outstanding success for Bill English as he tries to bring a party into a 4th term. Clearly National has the electorate mandate form a government

minimoke
23-09-2017, 10:43 PM
If Jacinda losses I hope she is a gracious loser
I reckon she was - and you could hear JT ( or was it Elzorro) cheering her on during her speech.

fungus pudding
23-09-2017, 10:47 PM
I reckon she was - and you could hear JT ( or was it Elzorro) cheering her on during her speech.

Wouldn't have been either of them. They would have been crying in the corner and cursing some advertising agency.

minimoke
23-09-2017, 10:55 PM
Wouldn't have been either of them. They would have been crying in the corner and cursing some advertising agency.
You are probably right - I was confused by the shrillness of the support.

Raz
24-09-2017, 04:52 AM
Wow, interesting study in being myopic...

I can't see a ringing endorsement for any party in this result.

Well now we will see if Winston believes in anything..if it is really going to be Peters demands on overseas ownership, immigration & affordability.

Thinking of all those corporate mates who have been so smug on meeting budgets as population growth of 2% makes it easy or....all the businesses that depend on bringing hordes of low skill, low wage labourers in to make their books balance need to come up with a new business plan, and any government that needs those same hordes to inflate GDP, because they've done bugger all to incentivise productive investment and increased productivity, and who depend on foreign dollars (with strings attached) to keep the economy plodding along, may well need to come up with a new plan for governance.

BlackPeter
24-09-2017, 09:20 AM
and the winner is .... Winston Peters :t_down:;

He will be in for the biggest and most beautiful baubles of power NZ has ever seen ...

Apparently the most likely outcome of this election (the pollsters have know it all the time) - i.e. we may start to believe in polls again.

But if there are winners, than under a populist government there must be as well losers - right? No win-win for populists.

If history is a guide - whatever party Winston is going with will lose the next election. And I think New Zealand overall lost. It is a said state of affairs that one populist party determine the government and not the voters of NZ.

But then - Winston is the only small party leader who understands how MMP works. We can't blame him for the dumbness of the rest, can we? If all party's would be ready to negotiate with everybody else, than we could get the best possible government, not the biggest baubles for Winston.

National / Green anybody? I know, it is just a dream .... we have no green party in NZ, only a bunch of left-whingers calling themselves green.

Labour / Green / NZF: Some people call that the monster coalition - and I am sure they are right. Might be funny, though to watch. Probably the most entertainment value we could get out of this election though (sort of like Trump in the US) ... just concerned that it will need generations of New Zealanders to pay the bills and recover from their spending spree. BIG SPENDER ....

National / NZF: Depends obviously on the size of the baubles ... but so far I see it as difficult to align Winston's big spending policies with any responsible government. Might be the smallest evil, though.

Pity - looks like a lost opportunity, but then ... hey Winston, it is up to you: Surprise us!

craic
24-09-2017, 10:02 AM
Winston lost his seat in Northland. Does that mean he is better on a megaphone than he is on the ground? Last time he won and lost Tauranga, from memory. sometimes winning and losing can be confused. I put a $2 win bet on several horses yesterday before I left the club. When I checked the tickets I found that one bet was on a wrong horse, the biggest dog at the meeting. It won and paid about $68 for a win so I got double that and I still find it hard to believe that this was nothing but chance. As to this new, probable, government, I don't think it will go the full term. I expect someone to pull the plug later next year.
The horse was Adonis in the sixth race in Hastings.

Hectorplains
24-09-2017, 10:50 AM
Pity - looks like a lost opportunity, but then ... hey Winston, it is up to you: Surprise us!

Morgan thought so, his was definitely the best concession speech. Top effort that - blame the voters and state your contempt for their moral compasses. $3m to discover that people vote based on self interest...

Sgt Pepper
24-09-2017, 11:42 AM
and the winner is .... Winston Peters :t_down:;

He will be in for the biggest and most beautiful baubles of power NZ has ever seen ...

Apparently the most likely outcome of this election (the pollsters have know it all the time) - i.e. we may start to believe in polls again.

But if there are winners, than under a populist government there must be as well losers - right? No win-win for populists.

If history is a guide - whatever party Winston is going with will lose the next election. And I think New Zealand overall lost. It is a said state of affairs that one populist party determine the government and not the voters of NZ.

But then - Winston is the only small party leader who understands how MMP works. We can't blame him for the dumbness of the rest, can we? If all party's would be ready to negotiate with everybody else, than we could get the best possible government, not the biggest baubles for Winston.

National / Green anybody? I know, it is just a dream .... we have no green party in NZ, only a bunch of left-whingers calling themselves green.

Labour / Green / NZF: Some people call that the monster coalition - and I am sure they are right. Might be funny, though to watch. Probably the most entertainment value we could get out of this election though (sort of like Trump in the US) ... just concerned that it will need generations of New Zealanders to pay the bills and recover from their spending spree. BIG SPENDER ....

National / NZF: Depends obviously on the size of the baubles ... but so far I see it as difficult to align Winston's big spending policies with any responsible government. Might be the smallest evil, though.

Pity - looks like a lost opportunity, but then ...hey Winston, it is up to you: Surprise us!

Bill English, in, what he thought was a private conversation prior to the 2008 election infamously observed that to attain power you have to swallow "dead rats". We are about to discover whether his appetite for dead rats will be satiated in coalition talks with Winston, and if so what are they.
So what will he demand and what will he eventually agree to?
1) Immigration reduction: will be pushback from employers addicted to the sugar high of cheap labour, so some face-saving compromise will be arrived at.

2) Amend Reserve Bank Act: tinkering around the periphery, face-saving, no problems

3) rail link to Northport: will be quietly abandoned

Potential problems for incoming National -NZF Coalition

1. Internal conflict around Cabinet allocation

2. Winston will demand a fair proportion of SOE board positions to NZF supporters. This was an issue in 1996-1999. He won't let it happen again.

3. Auckland Housing market
By next winter the Auckland Housing market will be in serious disarray. The newly over-mortgaged, and overextended property investors will be burnt. Mortgagee sales will significantly increase and anger directed at the government

minimoke
24-09-2017, 12:31 PM
National / Green anybody? I know, it is just a dream .... we have no green party in NZ, only a bunch of left-whingers calling themselves green.!
That is something I could live with provided the Reds were binned and Greens had true environmental policies

Marilyn Munroe
24-09-2017, 03:03 PM
3) rail link to Northport: will be quietly abandoned



This rail link is a good idea. When compared to the grandiosity of Nationals other transport projects it is cheap as chips.

If Winston First plans to hand over the party to indolent Whangarei NZ First candidate Shane Jones he will need to give Shane some political capital to help capture this seat to coat-tail time servers in the party next election.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

Sgt Pepper
24-09-2017, 04:27 PM
Winston lost his seat in Northland. Does that mean he is better on a megaphone than he is on the ground? Last time he won and lost Tauranga, from memory. sometimes winning and losing can be confused. I put a $2 win bet on several horses yesterday before I left the club. When I checked the tickets I found that one bet was on a wrong horse, the biggest dog at the meeting. It won and paid about $68 for a win so I got double that and I still find it hard to believe that this was nothing but chance. As to this new, probable, government, I don't think it will go the full term. I expect someone to pull the plug later next year.
The horse was Adonis in the sixth race in Hastings.

Craic
I thought Stuart Nash had no chance of holding Napier?

fungus pudding
24-09-2017, 04:44 PM
That is something I could live with provided the Reds were binned and Greens had true environmental policies

Not possible to bin the reds. Jacinda is the reddest of the lot.

Sgt Pepper
24-09-2017, 05:04 PM
Some potential problems for Bill English( apart from Winston /NZF)

1) David Seymours End of Life Choice Bill

Will he elect to make this a conscience vote for National MPs or will he require them to vote against it? Either way has significant problems for Bill English.

2) Auckland property market
Negative equity, mortgagee sales.(= angry National voters) That ship is about to dock.

3) Maori proprietary rights over fresh water

Negotiations,( details undisclosed to date) fronted by Bill English and Nick Smith commenced with iwi LeaderGroup in 2015. They won't wait forever, next stop the Supreme Court. If they determine in favour, then the controversy surrounding Labours irrigation tax will pale in comparison.

elZorro
24-09-2017, 05:10 PM
Winston lost his seat in Northland. Does that mean he is better on a megaphone than he is on the ground? Last time he won and lost Tauranga, from memory. sometimes winning and losing can be confused. I put a $2 win bet on several horses yesterday before I left the club. When I checked the tickets I found that one bet was on a wrong horse, the biggest dog at the meeting. It won and paid about $68 for a win so I got double that and I still find it hard to believe that this was nothing but chance. As to this new, probable, government, I don't think it will go the full term. I expect someone to pull the plug later next year.
The horse was Adonis in the sixth race in Hastings.

Good to hear you're still winning those bets, Craic. Not quite a clean win to National, and Colin James picked that.


The "Jacinda effect" -- so far



As the election campaign wraps up, opinion polls say the wave that swept Labour from 24% to par with National in polls -- the Jacinda effect -- has receded a bit.

Nevertheless, Ardern might be Prime Minister in a three-way deal with the Greens and New Zealand First. That was a near-unthinkable prospect on July 31 and testifies to her extraordinary public appeal.

National built part of the dam across the Ardern wave by fabricating a non-existent $11.7 billion "hole" in Labour's fiscal projections and an imaginary Labour income tax "increase".

That dirty politics sullied churchgoing Catholic Bill English and his party. But National has come out the largest party, able to do a twosome deal with New Zealand First if the polls are right. So, a 10-cent bet on English? Only with a hedge or two, as in my column's non-forecast on Tuesday, the irony in which some may have missed. Two hedges in effect amount to a bet each way, that is, no bet -- no forecast.

That is because the prime ministership can go either way if New Zealand First decides the government. Winston Peters has laid down what read like blocks to both parties, most recently on water in Labour's case and an assertion yesterday that "neither" Steven Joyce nor Simon Bridges "are fit to hold office". But Peters is a sphinx. Words can have multiple meanings.

Whichever way the sphinx leans, there has been more to the "Jacinda effect" than whether she or English is Prime Minister next term. The Labour party has been rebuilt in confidence and finance back to competitive status with National, at least for the next while. Its caucus will be stronger as a result.

And, while Ardern is not a revolutionary, she has opened the door to a path towards a different way of doing things from the prevailing ideology of the past three decades. Her pointer has resonated with large numbers of the younger cohorts who will have to live through very different conditions in the 2020s, who do want a different way of doing things and who will in future be the majority.

That these changes are now in the frame is the "Jacinda effect" in her first seven and a-half weeks as leader.

Colin James, (64)-21-438 434, PO Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141, New Zealand ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000062/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), www.ColinJames.co.nz (http://www.ColinJames.co.nz)







Labour has a lot of new List MPs, the Maori Party is gone, Labour has all the Maori seats. Sure the swing wasn't as big as I hoped, and that was partly the low voter turnout and the marketing lies by National.

I hope Winston will see that only about 30% of eligible voters chose National, the "Not National" vote was bigger than that, and also take note that his policies look a lot like Labour's policies. NZ First are running the line that Fed Farmers use, that urban areas also pollute waterways, but really it doesn't stack up. Only 2% of waterways by length have urban runoff, and of course all effluent from urban areas is treated.

If Winston is at all interested in effecting change in NZ "Had Enough?" then he'll wait for the special votes to come in, it should give the Labour/Green block more power, and a Labour/Green/NZ First coalition would be quite achievable and stable. Plus, he'll get the rail up north, and probably Auckland port moved as well. These would all add to his legacy. A legacy for fair play that's already better than John Key mustered.

777
24-09-2017, 05:27 PM
Good to hear you're still winning those bets, Craic. Not quite a clean win to National, and Colin James picked that.



Labour has a lot of new List MPs, the Maori Party is gone, Labour has all the Maori seats. Sure the swing wasn't as big as I hoped, and that was partly the low voter turnout and the marketing lies by National.

I hope Winston will see that only about 30% of eligible voters chose National, the "Not National" vote was bigger than that, and also take note that his policies look a lot like Labour's policies. NZ First are running the line that Fed Farmers use, that urban areas also pollute waterways, but really it doesn't stack up. Only 2% of waterways by length have urban runoff, and of course all effluent from urban areas is treated.

If Winston is at all interested in effecting change in NZ "Had Enough?" then he'll wait for the special votes to come in, it should give the Labour/Green block more power, and a Labour/Green/NZ First coalition would be quite achievable and stable. Plus, he'll get the rail up north, and probably Auckland port moved as well. These would all add to his legacy. A legacy for fair play that's already better than John Key mustered.

Reality check eZ, 63% do not want Labour and a whole 94% do not want the Greens.. You can spin the thing anyway you want. You lost the chance to be the biggest party. And remember while Labour need the Greens they will never be wanted by the majority of voters. Unfortunately with MMP if that is what Winston decides then that is what we get.

minimoke
24-09-2017, 05:28 PM
Nevertheless, Ardern might be Prime Minister in a three-way deal with the Greens and New Zealand First. That was a near-unthinkable prospect on July 31 and testifies to her extraordinary public appeal..
The only problem with that is Labour has a Leader with no leadership experience trying to lead a Labour mob with a history of insurrection. Couple that with trying to manage the two leaders of Greens (not one leader since they dont believe in meritocracy) and throw in old guard Winston who is the very personification of what the Labour party biffed out of their leadership ranks. I can only see it ending in tears. Plucky little JacInda wasn't so plucky last night so imagine her after 3 years in that scenario,

kiora
24-09-2017, 05:36 PM
Good to hear you're still winning those bets, Craic. Not quite a clean win to National, and Colin James picked that.



Labour has a lot of new List MPs, the Maori Party is gone, Labour has all the Maori seats. Sure the swing wasn't as big as I hoped, and that was partly the low voter turnout and the marketing lies by National.

I hope Winston will see that only about 30% of eligible voters chose National, the "Not National" vote was bigger than that, and also take note that his policies look a lot like Labour's policies. NZ First are running the line that Fed Farmers use, that urban areas also pollute waterways, but really it doesn't stack up. Only 2% of waterways by length have urban runoff, and of course all effluent from urban areas is treated.

If Winston is at all interested in effecting change in NZ "Had Enough?" then he'll wait for the special votes to come in, it should give the Labour/Green block more power, and a Labour/Green/NZ First coalition would be quite achievable and stable. Plus, he'll get the rail up north, and probably Auckland port moved as well. These would all add to his legacy. A legacy for fair play that's already better than John Key mustered.

El Z
From my understanding this fact"and of course all effluent from urban areas is treated' is untrue particularly when storm water systems get overloaded.

elZorro
24-09-2017, 06:28 PM
El Z
From my understanding this fact"and of course all effluent from urban areas is treated' is untrue particularly when storm water systems get overloaded.

But that's not a deliberate result, the aim is to treat all effluent. Many cities are also doing more with stormwater runoff, screening plastic etc.

While we're sorting out new affordable housing, we could be using some of that roading equipment building 'roads of national significance' leading towards the next traffic jam area, to redo effluent systems for a higher capacity.

In any case, Winston must have seen the mood for change. Will he join it, or will he put NZ back into the degradation pattern that has been established by National?

fungus pudding
24-09-2017, 06:32 PM
But that's not a deliberate result, the aim is to treat all effluent. Many cities are also doing more with stormwater runoff, screening plastic etc.

While we're sorting out new affordable housing, we could be using some of that roading equipment building 'roads of national significance' leading towards the next traffic jam area, to redo effluent systems for a higher capacity.

In any case, Winston must have seen the mood for change. Will he join it, or will he put NZ back into the degradation pattern that has been established by National?

There is no mood for change. 46% is a huge endorsement in an MMP system.

couta1
24-09-2017, 06:46 PM
There is no mood for change. 46% is a huge endorsement in an MMP system. Dead right, if there was a mood for change, Labour would have gotten 46%.

Bjauck
24-09-2017, 07:25 PM
Morgan thought so, his was definitely the best concession speech. Top effort that - blame the voters and state your contempt for their moral compasses. $3m to discover that people vote based on self interest... I think Morgan was starting the campaign for the 2020 election! Good onya Morgs. I hope he stays around - maybe he has got another 8 political lives left. NZ may yet see the red peak flying?

fungus pudding
24-09-2017, 07:27 PM
I think Morgan was starting the campaign for the 2020 election! Good onya Morgs. I hope he stays around - maybe he has got another 8 political lives left. NZ may yet see the red peak flying?

Au contraire. In a three year term more and more people will actually find out what his policies are, and he'll never be heard of again.

Bjauck
24-09-2017, 07:32 PM
Au contraire. In a three year term more and more people will actually find out what his policies are, and he'll never be heard of again. After three more years of the same (snafu)...I think he could find at least 5% who could vote for him...

However as Harold Wilson said, a week in politics is a long time. Let alone 3 years.

blackcap
24-09-2017, 08:00 PM
[QUOTE=elZorro;685829

I hope Winston will see that only about 30% of eligible voters chose National, the "Not National" vote was bigger than that, and also take note that his policies look a lot like Labour's policies. .[/QUOTE]

I hope Winston will see that only about 24% of eligible voters chose Labour, the "Not Labour" vote was huge, also take not that he loathes James Shaw and the Greens.

You can spin it anyway you like.

fungus pudding
24-09-2017, 11:09 PM
I hope Winston will see that only about 24% of eligible voters chose Labour, the "Not Labour" vote was huge, also take not that he loathes James Shaw and the Greens.

You can spin it anyway you like.

Not really. Under an MMP election the party with the highest no. of votes is the winner, although will usually be short of an outright majority therefore requiring a coaltion partner. That is what MMP is designed to acheive. That is not to say the winner has to be part of the coalition, but there would be an uproar if it wasn't, given the second, third and fourth parties are so far behind, and even in total just make the 50%+ mark..

blackcap
25-09-2017, 06:26 AM
EL Zorro,

Just had a look at the markets... they think you guys are toast. its $1.11 for a National Prime Minister and $10.00 for a Labour one..... :) Game over I think.

iceman
25-09-2017, 06:44 AM
I hope Winston will see that only about 24% of eligible voters chose Labour, the "Not Labour" vote was huge, also take not that he loathes James Shaw and the Greens.

You can spin it anyway you like.

I hope Winston realises that 93% of eligible voters did NOT vote for NZ First !! But I doubt he will show voters any such regard

blackcap
25-09-2017, 06:47 AM
I hope Winston realises that 93% of eligible voters did NOT vote for NZ First !! But I doubt he will show voters any such regard

Would not worry too much... National are now at $1.07 and Labour at $14.00, with Winston at $65

elZorro
25-09-2017, 07:02 AM
Would not worry too much... National are now at $1.07 and Labour at $14.00, with Winston at $65

Pretty good odds, considering we know how unpredictable Winston is. Will he do a deal with the Nats, just after they leaked details on his super payments, and up until recently wouldn't have been giving him the time of day? Colin James thinks he will be weighing up the options, and since he has gathered up those votes by pointing out what's wrong with National's policies, he's perfectly entitled to help the existing Labour-Green coalition over the line, who by that time (special votes) might be only 2% behind National.

Colin James worked with Winston when he was in the National Party.


Colin James Otago Daily Times election extra September 25 2017

English on top but facing a stronger Labour


National operates on the principle that in politics there is only first place because that is where the power is. So assume Bill English is prepared to pay what it takes to get Winston Peters on board.

Peters meanwhile has adopted his habitual sphinx-like position. It may be some time before we know for sure the government makeup. National's 46.0% election night party vote is by any measure extraordinary after three terms and in a proportional system. That means English needs only New Zealand First for a majority. Jacinda Ardern needs a three-way deal. But the win English has been celebrating is qualified. Think of Labour and the Greens as an informal coalition and National's lead drops from 10.2% to 4.3%.

And if the 384,000 specials fall as differently from the election night count as in 2014, when National lost 1.1 percentage points between election night and the final count, that lead could drop to 2%-3%. If things go wrong -- as they did for the most recent fourth term governments, after the 1946 and 1969 elections -- that slim lead could quickly evaporate. And if the government slides and New Zealand First is part of it, its party might drop below 5% next election, as after its two coalition deals in 1996 and 2005.

Moreover, how would Peters, who wants net immigration cut to one-seventh its present level, work with English, whose vaunted GDP growth slips to near zero on a per capita basis, that is with immigration taken out? That is just one problematic area. Better to go with Labour-Greens? If you had to assign New Zealand First conference delegates to National or Labour, most would go Labour. The same majority applies to its policies. But the fact that New Zealand First's support halved after Ardern was made leader might mean its residual supporters are mostly National-leaning.

Whichever way Peters goes -- and one option is to stay out of government and just abstain on confidence and supply motions -- there is a whiff of the British election in June. Labour has climbed far higher than anyone expected just two months back, as British Labour did. The National-to-Labour two-party swing was 9.8% (election night to election night). And, as Theresa May was stripped of her majority, English has been stripped of two of his compliant tiddler parties and the third, ACT, is knackered: even in leader David Seymour's Epsom seat it scored only 565 party votes, behind fifth-placed Opportunities.

Labour is now positioned strongly for the next election, with a bigger caucus and able new MPs. The Greens, the July disaster behind them, should be able to consolidate. Ardern and James Shaw are a very presentable pair. But Labour has work to do on its "base" vote. The only seats where the swing was from Labour to National on the party vote were Mangere and Manukau East and next-door Manurewa's swing to Labour was tiny. In west Auckland the swing was also light. These areas used to be solid Labour. Now Labour looks stronger in seats with concentrations of university students and social liberals, like Wellington Central, Auckland Central, Mt Albert and Dunedin North, which all had swings from National well above the average.

An aside: Labour beat National on the party vote in Nelson, pointing Nick Smith towards the door. The door also beckons for Peters, 72. But first a decision as to who governs. Which might take some time.


Colin James, (64)-21-438 434, PO Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141, New Zealand ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000048/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000048/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

blackcap
25-09-2017, 07:47 AM
They are pretty good odds... I have put a bit on Labour now too. At $12 (what they are now) that is just too big. Agree with you that the specials will sway Labours way. Most of the specials will be young voters (those not yet enrolled) and most will go left... But think Nats will get there with Winston, but think the odds should be 1.30, not 1.08

BlackPeter
25-09-2017, 09:14 AM
Not really. Under an MMP election the party with the highest no. of votes is the winner, although will usually be short of an outright majority therefore requiring a coaltion partner. That is what MMP is designed to acheive. That is not to say the winner has to be part of the coalition, but there would be an uproar if it wasn't, given the second, third and fourth parties are so far behind, and even in total just make the 50%+ mark..

Not sure I would be outraged if more than 50% of the electorate stand behind whatever coalition - which (at current counting) would be the case with Labour / Green / NZF. I guess the other question would be whether they could provide a good and stable government, and this is obviously questionable looking at the involved characters and policies ... however - I would not question their political legitimacy if they try.

The other question is - what is better for NZ? To be honest - I don't know.

I think however that it would be good for Labour if Jacinda has three years in opposition to hone her parties policies and remove all the leftwing dead wood from the ranks. I think she could turn Labour into a reputable and credible opposition party. Better a good opposition leader than burning her now in a chaotic government - Labour has not really a surplus of good leaders and can't really afford to burn out a good leader at this stage.

For National it might be potentially as well better to go into opposition rather than going with the backwards looking flock from Winston First. Our world is full of selfish populistic governments not addressing the real issues (Trump, May) - we don't need more of these idiots in government.

The best option for NZ I could see would be a National Green government - but I doubt that our Greenies have the moral size and the political wisdom to grab this opportunity. They are likely to keep doing nothing for another three years instead of standing up and being counted.

But still - just imagine Bill / James announcing end of this week a coalition agreement with big wins for the environment, good for a stable and growing economy ... and the look on Winston's face would be priceless :t_up:

minimoke
25-09-2017, 09:35 AM
The best option for NZ I could see would be a National Green government - but I doubt that our Greenies have the moral size and the political wisdom to grab this opportunity. They are likely to keep doing nothing for another three years instead of standing up and being counted.
The big risk for the Greens is they may loose even more relevance. NZ First environmental policy key planks are ensuring there is a balance between economic progress and environmental goals as well as making rivers and lakes swimmable. If progress is made on these goals Greens may just slip under 5% and then never having been in government and with decades of wasted opportunity. Now is their one big chance to secure their legacy.

couta1
25-09-2017, 09:46 AM
National and the Greens definitely the best option IMO, the Greens would be on a tight lead after the initial negotiations, unfortunately the Greens are too short sighted and stuck in their ways to allow this to happen.

fungus pudding
25-09-2017, 09:50 AM
National and the Greens definitely the best option IMO, the Greens would be on a tight lead after the initial negotiations, unfortunately the Greens are too short sighted and stuck in their ways to allow this to happen.

Greens have some sensible envoiromenta policies, but their financial and social ideas are right off this planet.