If National wins ...

[craic]

This is a great day for me. The election result doesn't matter a scrap to me. I've turned eighty and I/We will get our pension regardless. We do not have to save for a house or to educate children or anything else. We have enough each week to feed ourselves and pay all the insurances and other bills and we save a few bob for holidays and $10 per week for the Christmas feasting. My horses won today and I bottled two and a half dozen bottles of beer. The fresh water is falling on the roof and there's not a single cowup there

[elZorro]

This is a great day for me. The election result doesn't matter a scrap to me. I've turned eighty and I/We will get our pension regardless. We do not have to save for a house or to educate children or anything else. We have enough each week to feed ourselves and pay all the insurances and other bills and we save a few bob for holidays and $10 per week for the Christmas feasting. My horses won today and I bottled two and a half dozen bottles of beer. The fresh water is falling on the roof and there's not a single cowup there

Craic, good to hear you're back in fine form. I think the general thrust of your argument is that anyone who works hard and sticks to their knitting, can get to a good retirement situation independent of the political party in power. But of course National is better. In what way, is never discussed, they're just better.

I should remind you that Labour brought in universal superannuation, Winston/NZ First brought you the Gold Card, and the Greens and Labour want to ensure the water flowing onto and off your property and all through NZ is in swimmable condition, within a generation.

Labour want to see the burden of families paying for tertiary education is reduced, back to a system closer to what an earlier generation enjoyed. These are aspirational targets that have fired up younger voters, and should be of interest to all NZers.

I like the sounds Winston is making today. He said it was a good idea to wait for the final results. Yep, the Greens gained one, Labour gained one, National lost two. He says the party policies are important. Again, a very good sign.

By the time that beer of yours is ready to consume Craic, I hope you'll be toasting ambivalently for the Labour-Greens-NZFirst coalition, holding the power at last. :)

[fungus pudding]

Craic, good to hear you're back in fine form. I think the general thrust of your argument is that anyone who works hard and sticks to their knitting, can get to a good retirement situation independent of the political party in power. But of course National is better. In what way, is never discussed, they're just better.

I should remind you that Labour brought in universal superannuation, Winston/NZ First brought you the Gold Card,

Interestng point that. I have never found a use for mine. I suppose if I want to go to Auckland I can get a free boat trip - but they are next to useless.

[elZorro]

Interestng point that. I have never found a use for mine. I suppose if I want to go to Auckland I can get a free boat trip - but they are next to useless.

W69 likes the ferry I think. But you can use off-peak public transport in Dunners, according to the website. Well, virtually free. And that's just the start.

https://www.supergold.govt.nz/

Superannuation started in 1898 or so, but it was means tested from age 60. The first Labour government dropped the means test from age 65 onwards, in 1938.

[martinchnz1]

Voters who wanted National out would hardly have voted for Winston First.

I know a person who did exactly that, they almost voted labour because they were fearful Winnie would side with National. Don't presume to know people's reasons for voting and expecting your logic to be applicable to all voters.

[craic]

A strong Labour voter who is a friend of mine and Maori, refused to vote Labour because she detests the Greens - there are many permutations of public opinion. I think I was once a member of Winnies party years ago. As to the Gold Card it was useless to us until last year when a bus company decided to run a bus to our area.

[BlackPeter]

What a spectacle: Yesterday we could see a tail lookin for a dog to wag first test-wagging a blue dog and afterwards the same tail test-wagging a red dog. Of particular interest: the red dog had already a (green) tail, but did hide it so that the other tail couldn't see it. Apparently the green tail is not worried if its dog attaches itself to a second tail who will wag the dog (and the green tail - I suppose).

What a time to be green tail ... and what a spectacle if these 2 tails start at some stage wagging together ... tail wags dog wags tail ... I am sure this will be worth every of our hard earned tax dollars ...

[westerly]

You might like to try contributing to threads with actual topics. This one is running to 967 pages of noise

And 4 of the next 7 posts came from you. Who is making all the noise? :)

westerly

[minimoke]

And 4 of the next 7 posts came from you. Who is making all the noise? :)

westerlyThank you for your contribution. An audit will show I have contributed about 10 posts out of 968 pages.(Just doing my bit to get it to 967 pages!)

[Minerbarejet]

What a spectacle: Yesterday we could see a tail lookin for a dog to wag first test-wagging a blue dog and afterwards the same tail test-wagging a red dog. Of particular interest: the red dog had already a (green) tail, but did hide it so that the other tail couldn't see it. Apparently the green tail is not worried if its dog attaches itself to a second tail who will wag the dog (and the green tail - I suppose).

What a time to be green tail ... and what a spectacle if these 2 tails start at some stage wagging together ... tail wags dog wags tail ... I am sure this will be worth every of our hard earned tax dollars ...
Surely you are not suggesting the country has gone to the dogs?

[BlackPeter]

Surely you are not suggesting the country has gone to the dogs?

Now you are mentioning it ... ;)

[craic]

Surely you are not suggesting the country has gone to the dogs?

I think that the green dog is about to be eaten. I imagine Labour run by winnie and the Greens trying to get a word in edgewise? If the Greens had half a brain they would be seeking an arrangement with National to form a government. It looks more like a National/NZ First Govt with the Greens holding the Labour oppositions hand.

[fungus pudding]

I think that the green dog is about to be eaten. I imagine Labour run by winnie and the Greens trying to get a word in edgewise? If the Greens had half a brain they would be seeking an arrangement with National to form a government. It looks more like a National/NZ First Govt with the Greens holding the Labour oppositions hand.

Make a lot of sense, but don't count on it.

[minimoke]

I think that the green dog is about to be eaten. I imagine Labour run by winnie and the Greens trying to get a word in edgewise? If the Greens had half a brain they would be seeking an arrangement with National to form a government. It looks more like a National/NZ First Govt with the Greens holding the Labour oppositions hand.
Hands up who would want to be James Shaw. Potentially, with Jacinda as your leader, and Winston as the deputy leading from the front. And nipping at your heels Julie Anne Genter, Eugenie Sage and Jan Logoie. Whats the opposite to a "match made in heaven"?

[Joshuatree]

Be fantastic if greens finally get to action environmental issues at last in conjunction with labour.

Landowners selling water what a farce

"$1 a cubic metre I think personally undervalues what the water can produce. If you look at what each cubic metre ..."


"But in the absence of charges from central or local Government, a market for water has sprung up anyway. One consultancy, Hydro Traders, is helping landowners sell water from the Selwyn-Waimakiriri and Selwyn-Rakaia areas in amounts usually ranging from 50 million to 500 million litres a year (50,000- 500,000 cubic metres) for prices of roughly $50,000 to $500,000 (based on the ten most recent sales).
One particularly large trade in 2015 allowed the buyer to take more than 2 billion litres of water annually from the Hurunui River, with a daily limit of 15 million litres. Wellington City, by comparison, uses 30 billion litres of water a year for household and industrial purposes.
The sales are often happening in catchments where councils have belatedly realised they have given out more extraction rights than rivers can stand, meaning a landowner's prospects of getting a new permit, or increasing an existing one, are slim to non-existent. Most of the confirmed trading is happening in Canterbury, although Otago also has high numbers of water transfers between landowners (though not necessarily trading for money) and there are anecdotal reports of water sales from Marlborough (http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/business/82282156/Opposition-to-water-sharing-plan-in-Marlborough).
The man facilitating much of the trading in Canterbury — Hydro Traders' managing director Anthony Davoren — believes water should be selling for more. "$1 a cubic metre I think personally undervalues what the water can produce. If you look at what each cubic metre of water can produce and the long-term average of various commodities, whether it's wheat or barley or potatoes or milk solids or red meat protein, that water is probably a little undervalued," says Davoren."
When the river runs dry: The true cost of NZ water (http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/91957274/When-the-river-runs-dry-The-true-cost-of-NZ-water)

[BlackPeter]

Hands up who would want to be James Shaw. Potentially, with Jacinda as your leader, and Winston as the deputy leading from the front. And nipping at your heels Julie Anne Genter, Eugenie Sage and Jan Logoie. Whats the opposite to a "match made in heaven"?

"Don't play with matches?"

[Rep]

I think that the green dog is about to be eaten. I imagine Labour run by winnie and the Greens trying to get a word in edgewise? If the Greens had half a brain they would be seeking an arrangement with National to form a government. It looks more like a National/NZ First Govt with the Greens holding the Labour oppositions hand.

It's a plotline that even the writers of 'Yes, Prime Minister' or even 'House of Cards' would have shelved for being so farcical that it shred the suspension of disbelief that is inherent in any fictional depiction.

Effectively the person in the black hat has something that the person in the blue hat and the person in the red hat wants - neither of them want to share what the person in the black hat is offering.

The person in the black hat has sworn the person in the blue hat and the person in the red hat to secrecy because if either of them knows what respectively the other has put on the table then the black hat's advantage from information asymmetry is removed.

If the person in the red hat and the person in the blue hat got together and agreed a common price for what they would offer the person in the black hat, then the person in the black hat might not provide it to either of them and threaten either of them for the next 3 years with a terrible consequence but only if the persons in the red and blue hats respectively wanted to allow the person in the black hat to deliver that consequence on the other.

On the other hand, the person in the green hat also has something that the person in the red hat needs along with what the person in the black hat is offering - but because the person in the green hat is either naive or has principles, the person in the green hat's promise that they would only give it to the person in the red hat and never to the person in the blue hat means....

The person in the red hat is talking to the person in the green hat but can't tell them what they are offering the person in the black hat;
The person in the red hat is talking to the person in the green hat but also can't tell them what the person in the black hat is asking for in return for what the person in the red hat AND the person in the green hat apparently want together;
The person in the red hat and the person in the black hat agree to what is being given by the person in the red hat AND the person in the green hat.

Oddly, because the person in the black hat hasn't told the person in the red hat OR the person in the blue hat who they would give their valued commodity to then it makes it much more valuable than whatever the green hat brings even though the value of the green hat's thing of value and the black hat's thing of value is pretty much similar.

There's also a person with a yellow hat but what they have got is irrelevant and in any case, the person with the yellow hat only wants to play with the person in the blue hat but that only happens if the person in the black hat wants to play with the person in the blue hat and the person in the black hat won't play with the person in the yellow hat.

No wonder the young aren't interested in deciding the value of what the persons in the red hat, blue hat, green hat, black hat and yellow hat have... especially when the person in the black hat never tells anyone how or what that person wants.

[minimoke]

Labour want to see the burden of families paying for tertiary education is reduced, back to a system closer to what an earlier generation enjoyed. These are aspirational targets that have fired up younger voters,
I dont know on what basis you think young voters were fired up. 28% of 18 - 24 year olds didn't even bother to register. In fact, its your 35 plus years olds who were fired up enough to register to vote - this lot had over 96% enrolled to vote. Your 55 - 59 year olds were right on to it with 99.5% of eligible voters registers.

[minimoke]

Be fantastic if greens finally get to action environmental issues at last in conjunction with labour.

....
"But in the absence of charges from central or local Government, a market for water has sprung up anyway. One consultancy, Hydro Traders, is helping landowners sell water from the Selwyn-Waimakiriri and Selwyn-Rakaia areas in amounts usually ranging from 50 million to 500 million litres a year (50,000- 500,000 cubic metres) for prices of roughly $50,000 to $500,000 (based on the ten most recent sales).
One particularly large trade in 2015 allowed the buyer to take more than 2 billion litres of water annually from the Hurunui River, with a daily limit of 15 million litres.
Just so you know JT, the Hurunui is currently flowing at 250 cumecs a second. That means 250,000 liters are flowing a second. 1 million litres in 4 seconds. 15 million litres in a minute. That is 1/1440 of current capacity.

The Waimaks currently flowing at 350 cumecs a second - do the math)

Stop sea level rise - sell more river water!

[Minerbarejet]

I take my hat off to you, Rep.
Outstanding.

[Snow Leopard]

It's a plotline that even the writers of 'Yes, Prime Minister' or even 'House of Cards' would have shelved for being so farcical....

Via one those giant leaps sideways that I am capable of:

http://www.debonogroup.com/six_thinking_hats.php

[Joshuatree]

Just so you know JT, the Hurunui is currently flowing at 250 cumecs a second. That means 250,000 liters are flowing a second. 1 million litres in 4 seconds. 15 million litres in a minute. That is 1/1440 of current capacity.

The Waimaks currently flowing at 350 cumecs a second - do the math)

Stop sea level rise - sell more river water!

Avoiding the issues again; your default position?

[blackcap]

Avoiding the issues again; your default position?

JT, why are National still hot favs ie its Bill 65:35 to be the next PM? Even after the weekend?

[Rep]

Via one those giant leaps sideways that I am capable of:

http://www.debonogroup.com/six_thinking_hats.php

Well done PT you figured out my cryptic descriptor...
Have a look at those descriptions of the hats in your post again PT and realise why I chose the persons with the coloured hats in the first place.

There is no person in the white hat right now...

The yellow hat is being ignored
The black hat is being overused
The red hat is all about feeling, hunches and intuition
The green hat is about creativity, possibilities and alternatives but is been relegated out of the picture because of the overuse of the black hat and the red hat (no white hat being used)
The blue hat wants to manage the thinking process but is at the whim of the black and red hat...

[minimoke]

Avoiding the issues again; your default position?
I'm not bright enough to figure out whatever issue you are trying to raise. You say "Be fantastic if greens finally get to action environmental issues at last in conjunction with labour." And then you do a cut and paste about selling water - a resource I have just shown you which is bountiful. Are you talking coalitions, environment or commerce?

[fungus pudding]

JT, why are National still hot favs ie its Bill 65:35 to be the next PM? Even after the weekend?

Where did that come from?

[blackcap]

Where did that come from?

Twas simply a question. Some on the left seem to think a Labour led govt is a done deal. The market does not think so.

[fungus pudding]

Twas simply a question. Some on the left seem to think a Labour led govt is a done deal. The market does not think so.

Sure, but where did you get the market update?

[blackcap]

Sure, but where did you get the market update?

Ah I see... betfair.com

The market is pretty thin, but on Saturday after the announcement National traded as high as 1.60 (62.5% chance) but today the trades have been at 1.45 or thereabouts (68% chance).

[fungus pudding]

Ah I see... betfair.com

The market is pretty thin, but on Saturday after the announcement National traded as high as 1.60 (62.5% chance) but today the trades have been at 1.45 or thereabouts (68% chance).

Great. Thanks. Being a man of no vices at all, I'm not up with the betting sites.

[westerly]

Just so you know JT, the Hurunui is currently flowing at 250 cumecs a second. That means 250,000 liters are flowing a second. 1 million litres in 4 seconds. 15 million litres in a minute. That is 1/1440 of current capacity.

The Waimaks currently flowing at 350 cumecs a second - do the math)

Stop sea level rise - sell more river water!

If you haven't noticed it has been raining quite heavily the last few days, consequently the braided rivers are running higher than normal. Farmers will be smiling, good for pasture growth. Also good for the aquifiers which rely on river flows to maintain water levels. Water becomes valuable when summer finally arrives and the braided rivers approach their minimum flows and irrigation is restricted.
When the rivers are in flood irrigators do not want the water, it is too dirty for their equipment. If you can find a use for all that dirty water flowing out to sea I am sure you will make a fortune.

westerly

[winner69]

Who is going to be Deputy Prime Minister then

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97694999/david-seymour-says-winston-peters-will-become-prime-minister

[fungus pudding]

Who is going to be Deputy Prime Minister then

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97694999/david-seymour-says-winston-peters-will-become-prime-minister

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Prime Minister portfolio is what Winston will be trying his damndest for, along with a couple of concessions to make it look good. That's why I'd put my money on Labour, cos National wouldn't tolerate Mr. 7% trying to run the show. In the unlikely event that Labour don't leap at his generous offer to run the ship for them, I reckon Winston will head for the cross benches. That would leave Winston probably in the situation where he'd almost certainly behave himself.

[minimoke]

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Prime Minister portfolio is what Winston will be trying his damndest for, .No matter what, I don't think Winston is that delusional

[fungus pudding]

No matter what, I don't think Winston is that delusional

He's tried for it before, and he's more delusional now than he was then - and he's got a much weaker Labour to suck up to his big ambition.

[winner69]

No matter what, I don't think Winston is that delusional

....he's in his 70's

[fungus pudding]

....he's in his 70's

Smoked most of his life, Maori, reputedly a big drinker. There's three factors that make it remarkable he's still on his feet.

[GTM 3442]

I have a suspicion that Winston Peters is almost as much interested in his political legacy - the future of his creation, New Zealand First - as he is in holding office this time round.

[Joshuatree]

I have absolutely no doubt that national will suck up to winston. Hey they've thrown dead cats around have looked the nation in the eye and lied(remember that hole) and are unprincipled and desperate to stay in power because imo they are addicted to it, so whats a few rats swallowed; to them nothing. they will pull him in and do something dirty some time later to remove him.

[fungus pudding]

I have absolutely no doubt that national will suck up to winston. Hey they've thrown dead cats around have looked the nation in the eye and lied(remember that hole) and are unprincipled and desperate to stay in power because imo they are addicted to it, so whats a few rats swallowed; to them nothing. they will pull him in and do something dirty some time later to remove him.

As predicted by Joyce, the teachers are about to start digging the hole; one thing that is known and Taxcinda and Robbersin haven't allowed for. And that's just the start of the public service demands.

[Rep]

As predicted by Joyce, the teachers are about to start digging the hole; one thing that is known and Taxcinda and Robbersin haven't allowed for. And that's just the start of the public service demands.

If anyone thinks that the public sector unions are going to be happy with inflation indexed pay increases under a Labour led government, I think they are probably a bit naive. Teachers, nurses, junior doctors, senior doctors, WINZ, ACC, IRD, DoC, everyone across the entire state services sector will be jostling for position to present their demands... everyone is going to want a drink at the well and that’s before the next rounds of pay equity cases to settle.

And then we shall see just how many treaty settlements are resolved in this next term.

Or what actually ends up actually finally going to welfare recipients at WINZ and on National Super... and whether we see the Laffer Curve in action...

[elZorro]

Jacinda was just on TV1 saying that, so far, 100% of the discussions with NZFirst have been about policies. That has to be pretty bad news for National's chances on forming a coalition.

Colin James has a message for Grumpers.


Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 10 October 2017
Grumping, policy trading and a trade crunch coming

There has been much grumping that Winston Peters and New Zealand First, with a 7.2% vote, decide who leads the government. That's MMP.

These grumpers, who tend to be beneficiaries of the current economic paradigm, brush off the two democratic votes for the MMP system, in two referendums in 1992-93 and one in 2011.

They forget that in 1993, the last first-past-the-post election, Jim Bolger got only 50 of 99 seats and if he had been one seat down, as he was on election night, would have needed either Peters or Jim Anderton to govern. As it was, he had to filch Sir Peter Tapsell from Labour as Speaker.

In June this year in first-past-the-post Britain Theresa May had to go grubbing to a populist Ulster party to scrape a majority. In Australia Malcolm Turnbull has a majority of one in the federal Parliament's lower house, elected under the preferential vote system, and is in a minority in the Senate, elected by single transferrable vote.

So flipping to a different voting system could still leave grumpers grumping. In any case, National's 44%, while impressive after three terms, is not a majority. Moreover, if New Zealand First goes with Labour-plus-Greens this week, well-off grumpers might thank it for modifying some Labour-Green policies.

Some grumpers -- and, with them, a National party which in the campaign concocted fabrications about Labour's fiscal hole and income tax plans -- also cynically pushed a National-Greens deal.

Greens could not join a party that, to the frustration of some in National's own Bluegreens ginger group, has dawdled on climate change.

So wary of big parties are some Green party members that they opposed signing up with friend Labour in March to fiscal parameters. National's Greens ploy seemed designed to pressure Peters.

That is not to say there isn't work to do on MMP. The Electoral Commission report after the 2011 referendum recommended dropping the "waiver", which allows a party which wins an electorate seat to get a total of seats proportional to its party vote without crossing the 5% threshold. If that had been done the Maori party would have had one seat, not two, in the 2014-17 Parliament.

To compensate for loss of the waiver, the commission wanted the 5% threshold cut to 4%, the figure the 1986 royal commission proposed. The Electoral Commission also wanted "overhangs" abolished so Parliament would always be just 120 seats.

Judith Collins, as Justice Minister, binned the report. Correct democratic process would have been to get a bill drafted and leave Parliament to decide. National benefited from the waiver's boost to its tiddler support parties.

The commission also recommended keeping the ratio of electorate seats to list seats to 72:48 to promote diversity and ensure proportionality. It is 71:49 now but as the population grows the number of electorate seats will rise under present rules.

Keeping the number of electorates down adds a rural buffer to many provincial city seats, making them harder for Labour to win and keep a presence there through resident MPs -- to be "part of the communities" as Grant Robertson put it after the 2014 disaster.

So Labour's new caucus has 29 list MPs and 17 electorate MPs. National has 41 electorate and 15 list MPs, so has more national presence.

The good news for Labour from the final count is that it has its highest score since 41.1% in 2005. Moreover, another 4935 votes off National would have got Labour another seat off National. Labour is close to Helen Clark's 38.7% in 1999 when she first took office, with the Alliance -- in a minority government, supported from outside by the Greens.

Clark built to 41.3% in 2002 by cannibalising the Alliance after it split. National also disintegrated, down to 20.9%. Labour can't cannibalise the Greens without sinking them. Much the same goes for New Zealand First. So Jacinda Ardern, whether in opposition or government, must eat into National's vote by building a real presence in middle New Zealand, notably in the provinces.

She needs also to suss why turnout is so low in south Auckland and why Labour underperformed in west Auckland and figure out how to get people in those Labour "strongholds" enrolled, engaged and voting.

Bill English's task is to work out how to pay the price of New Zealand First's support if Peters goes his way -- given the large holes in Steven Joyce's budget in hospital deficits and other funding shortfalls. Add that to the chronic political illnesses in housing, children in need, crime, drugs and much else which have worsened on his watch. If in opposition, whoever replaces English will also need to work out how to get on board the generational change train.

That's the longer term. In three weeks trade talks hit a TPP crunch. The election gave a majority to three parties who reject TPP as it stands, which could be ground-shifting for New Zealand's international positioning.

Grumpers: stand by.

* Last week's column detached Sir Michael Cullen's knighthood.

Colin James, (64)-21-438 434, PO Box 9494, Marion Square, Wellington 6141, New Zealand ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000017/!x-usc:mailto:ColinJames@synapsis.co.nz), www.ColinJames.co.nz (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000017/!x-usc:http://www.colinjames.co.nz/)

[777]

I have absolutely no doubt that national will suck up to winston. Hey they've thrown dead cats around have looked the nation in the eye and lied(remember that hole) and are unprincipled and desperate to stay in power because imo they are addicted to it, so whats a few rats swallowed; to them nothing. they will pull him in and do something dirty some time later to remove him.

And are you saying Labour won't be sucking up to Winston? They will do anything to get into power.

[iceman]

With Winston saying he has no intention to talk to The Greens and does not expect Labour to tell him what they discuss with The Greens, how on earth will a Labour led Government be formed ? Winston said yesterday that there will be a major change in how Government is run which must mean he intends to be in Government and not on cross benches. He can not negotiate a stable and reliable Labour led Government without The Greens being at the table. Probably can;t with them at the table either but that's a different story. This is a complete farce.

[BlackPeter]

I have absolutely no doubt that national will suck up to winston. Hey they've thrown dead cats around have looked the nation in the eye and lied(remember that hole) and are unprincipled and desperate to stay in power because imo they are addicted to it, so whats a few rats swallowed; to them nothing. they will pull him in and do something dirty some time later to remove him.

This post tells a lot about its poster. JT - you should be ashamed of yourself. How much good do you think your vilification of the other political side will do? Your post is divisive, unhelpful, wrong and plainly stupid.

Look at the sad situation in countries like Britain (BREXIT) and the US. In both cases it was people like you who thought that demonising the other side will bring them some cheap political gain but instead it did tear the country apart. Do you want this for NZ as well? Really?

Time to grow up?

[winner69]

Wonder what MP Jian Yang will do if Nats are not the next government

Suppose Labour has an equivalent person ......but the way Peters is talking if there is such a member in Labour's ranks he would be better off keeping a low profile.

[minimoke]

With Winston saying he has no intention to talk to The Greens and does not expect Labour to tell him what they discuss with The Greens, how on earth will a Labour led Government be formed ? ...... This is a complete farce.
I do not understand that reporting at all. Labour + NZ First do not make more seats than National - end of story.

For Labour to be in government there must be a negotiated agreement with the greens - and something more than supply and confidence. For a threesome to work everyone is going to have to take a turn at being on top and each needs to be a willing and active participant. Its not a threesome if you have a wallflower being a doormat watching on wondering "what if" - its during those moments thoughts of jealousy, revenge and attention seeking will pop up. Winston and James are going to have to drop their differences if they want to get it on with Jacinda.

[iceman]

I do not understand that reporting at all. Labour + NZ First do not make more seats than National - end of story.

For Labour to be in government there must be a negotiated agreement with the greens - and something more than supply and confidence. For a threesome to work everyone is going to have to take a turn at being on top and each needs to be a willing and active participant. Its not a threesome if you have a wallflower being a doormat watching on wondering "what if" - its during those moments thoughts of jealousy, revenge and attention seeking will pop up. Winston and James are going to have to drop their differences if they want to get it on with Jacinda.

Yes that's the way I see it too MM. Silly that The Greens are not at the table with Winston and Labour. That Chloe Swarbrick might be a good Deputy PM to PM Winnie :-)

[minimoke]

Yes that's the way I see it too MM. Silly that The Greens are not at the table with Winston and Labour. That Chloe Swarbrick might be a good Deputy PM to PM Winnie :-)
Maybe its Labour showing employers the way to negotiate - especially when it comes to National Awards (oops I mean Fair PAy Agreements). It seems we could have two large employers battling out what the Award can look like and they can leave the third party Union out in the dark.

(Chloe as Winstons deputy PM would never work. She is far too earnest and I suspect one late night gin and tonic would be enough to topple her)

[fungus pudding]

Maybe its Labour showing employers the way to negotiate - especially when it comes to National Awards (oops I mean Fair PAy Agreements). It seems we could have two large employers battling out what the Award can look like and they can leave the third party Union out in the dark.

(Chloe as Winstons deputy PM would never work. She is far too earnest and I suspect one late night gin and tonic would be enough to topple her)

Yeah but practice might build up resistance. Nights at the Green parrot with Winston would be good training.

[Joshuatree]

An int point of view Is Winston Peters our best current defence against market extremism? (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/10/is-winston-peters-our-best-current-defence-against-market-extremism/)

"Meaning: Peters has lots and lots of room to breathe, and can quite legitimately demand changes to dispute resolution procedures that threaten our national sovereignty. In the process… MMP is once again proving its worth as a defence against ideologically-driven market extremism."

[fungus pudding]

An int point of view Is Winston Peters our best current defence against market extremism? (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/10/is-winston-peters-our-best-current-defence-against-market-extremism/)

"Meaning: Peters has lots and lots of room to breathe, and can quite legitimately demand changes to dispute resolution procedures that threaten our national sovereignty. In the process… MMP is once again proving its worth as a defence against ideologically-driven market extremism."

Peters is away with the fairies and resorting to Muldoonism. He is going to sort out the dollar. According to Winston we have the most volatile currency in the world. According to me it's not in the top 20; maybe the top 50. Whatever - he wants to raise the price of all imports to 'help us'. Allah forbid that this clown gets his way with that one.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97721263/day-three-of-negotiations--nz-first-and-labour-up-first-then-national

[minimoke]

According to Winston we have the most volatile currency in the world. According to this he is right: https://www.dukascopy.com/fxcomm/blog/?action=post-show&post_id=3909 (eur/nzd)

[Sgt Pepper]

Maybe its Labour showing employers the way to negotiate - especially when it comes to National Awards (oops I mean Fair PAy Agreements). It seems we could have two large employers battling out what the Award can look like and they can leave the third party Union out in the dark.

(Chloe as Winstons deputy PM would never work. She is far too earnest and I suspect one late night gin and tonic would be enough to topple her)

Bill English's negotiation framework with Winston

'Look Winston, the National Party has principles, but if you don't like them, well, we've got others'

[fungus pudding]

According to this he is right: https://www.dukascopy.com/fxcomm/blog/?action=post-show&post_id=3909 (eur/nzd)

That's currency pairs.
Most volatile currency is Sth Africa.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-10/and-worlds-most-volatile-currency

[macduffy]

That's currency pairs.
Most volatile currency is Sth Africa.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-10/and-worlds-most-volatile-currency

Note also that while NZD/EUR is one of the most volatile pairs, NZD/USD is one of the least volatile.

[minimoke]

That's currency pairs.
Yes – but it suits Winstons narrative


NZD/USD is one of the least volatile.
No – that doesn’t suit Winstons narrative

[fungus pudding]

Yes – but it suits Winstons narrative


No – that doesn’t suit Winstons narrative

Got it.
.

[winner69]

I wonder who might be 'disappointed and anguished' on this thread

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97721263/day-three-of-negotiations--nz-first-and-labour-up-first-then-national

[minimoke]

I wonder who might be 'disappointed and anguished' on this thread

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97721263/day-three-of-negotiations--nz-first-and-labour-up-first-then-national
93% of us probably given most wont have voted for Winston but is seems like no matter what we are going to get more than his fair share of policies

[Joshuatree]

Bill English's negotiation framework with Winston

'Look Winston, the National Party has principles, but if you don't like them, well, we've got others'

So true so funny so sad.

[winner69]

So it's up to announce to the nation "I am forming a government in coalition with ..."

Surely Jacinda has the right to say "Labour will be forming the next government in ....."
Or maybe Bill has a say

Incredible

[elZorro]

So it's up to announce to the nation "I am forming a government in coalition with ..."

Surely Jacinda has the right to say "Labour will be forming the next government in ....."
Or maybe Bill has a say

Incredible

Surely all the coalition partners will be there to announce it jointly. It's one of the major parties brokering a deal with minor parties, it's just the press that has set it up looking like it does at the moment.

[minimoke]

Surely all the coalition partners will be there to announce it jointly. .That would seem appropriate. Might also be useful for all potential coalition partners to get around the table well before coming to an agreed set of terms.

Winston wont want to be upsetting 26% of the Green Party. If he does he won't be in Government with Labour.

Would also be helpful from a timing perspective. Any deal Labour / NZ First wants has to get past the Greens. To do this the deal has to go in front of a greens Special General Meeting. So the deal has to go out to every Green Branch. Each Branch will then consider the deal and on reaching a consensus instruct their Branch Delegate how to vote. 75% of the vote has to be in favour.

At the moment the Greens are probably sipping herbal tea around a campfire singing Kumbaya as they haven't got much else to do. And hoping maybe for a plea bargain deal for Meteria to be on offer as well.

[Joshuatree]

Fuel tax increase considered for Akl transport (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/341274/fuel-tax-increase-considered-for-akl-transport) BY NATIONAL . FUNDING HOLE lol

Dead cats lots of rats(inside the dead cat?)
"It said the government was responsible for $1 billion to $2.1bn of the $5.9bn funding hole, with Auckland Council responsible for the remainder."

[fungus pudding]

I sincerely hope National kick the Winston clown into touch and give him no option but to coalesce with Labour. He's Muldoon reborn, and longing to return NZ to the 1950s. This nonsense of wanting to lower the dollar, and at the same time bring down the price of housing - is unbelievable, and incompatible. He should go and ask a builder or architect how much content of a new house is imported. Whoever goes with Winston will be damaged. So Winston, Labour and the Greens, three groups of clowns, potentially buried for a few terms.

[Joshuatree]

Fuel tax increase considered for Akl transport (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/341274/fuel-tax-increase-considered-for-akl-transport) BY NATIONAL . FUNDING HOLE lol

Dead cats lots of rats(inside the dead cat?)
"It said the government was responsible for $1 billion to $2.1bn of the $5.9bn funding hole, with Auckland Council responsible for the remainder."

National the TAXi party. Its on the table ,the petrol tax increase; what hypocrites, without principles!

[westerly]

So Winston, Labour and the Greens, three groups of clowns, potentially buried for a few terms.

Along with ACT. Even with Seymour in the house they are history. Given the number of posts denigrating the left the right leaning posters are running scared of the possibilty of a left coalition, or even National with NZF It must be a nightmare result for them.

westerly

,

[minimoke]

I sincerely hope National kick the Winston clown into touch and give him no option but to coalesce with Labour. He's Muldoon reborn, and longing to return NZ to the 1950s. This nonsense of wanting to lower the dollar, and at the same time bring down the price of housing - is unbelievable, and incompatible. He should go and ask a builder or architect how much content of a new house is imported. Whoever goes with Winston will be damaged. So Winston, Labour and the Greens, three groups of clowns, potentially buried for a few terms.
Maybe Nationals’ plan is to ratchet up negotiation talks to a point where they can’t agree to a deal with Winston. But in the meantime Winston and the Labour have agreed to such a raft of policy changes the Greens wont initially support. Except the Greens will eventually support which will lead to an unhappy coalition which will implode in 18 months. Leaving both Greens and NZ First way out in the cold next election

[craic]

Wouldn't it be a great boost for politicians as representatives of the people if the two leaders got together and told Winston to take a walk. If they told him that his small percentage could not run the country and that they were prepared to go into parliament with the certain knowledge that parliament would fail and another election would be called where the voters would have to think twice before putting their mark on the paper.

[fungus pudding]

Along with ACT. Even with Seymour in the house they are history. Given the number of posts denigrating the left the right leaning posters are running scared of the possibilty of a left coalition, or even National with NZF It must be a nightmare result for them.

westerly


It most certainly is.

[jonu]

Very interesting Herald article this afternoon that notes Shane Jones hasn't attended any of the meetings with Labour, but has attended all the meetings with National. Also that the Nats have had more meetings than Labour.

I'll be very surprised if a sweetheart deal in Northland for Shane isn't part of a Nats deal, even if NZ First sits on the cross benches.

I had a business meeting last week with an acquaintance of both Shane and Winston. He told me Shane said after his valedictory in parliament, when the Labour people came up to shake his hand, they were muttering in his ear "good riddance" and other such stuff. If Shane Jones is the future of NZ First post Winnie, there is only one way they can go.

[craic]

The way the Greens are being treated as irrelevant by the parties leaves me with the view that Winnie is leaning right and expects the Greens to be on the wrong side anyway. As a National supporter, most of the time, I would rather see Winnie on the other side where he would do more harm than a bull in a china shop.

[fungus pudding]

The way the Greens are being treated as irrelevant by the parties leaves me with the view that Winnie is leaning right and expects the Greens to be on the wrong side anyway. As a National supporter, most of the time, I would rather see Winnie on the other side where he would do more harm than a bull in a china shop.

I'm a swinging voter too but definitely national over the current Labour. That leaves me in a dilemma. I'd rather see Labour torn to bits than national. But at the same time I think Labour will allow more damage to NZ, more moving back to the past, than National will tolerate. So I'll have to witness either NZ punished or National.

[minimoke]

In my ideal world I would like to see a NZ First / Labour / Green coalition.

And I'll get ready for an election in 18 months

[fungus pudding]

In my ideal world I would like to see a NZ First / Labour / Green coalition.

And I'll get ready for an election in 18 months

That's probably the best possible outcome, and highly likely 'cos I think that's the way he has decided to go.
We'll Know within a week or two.

[craic]

Amazing the ideas that run through my mind as I sit here with a skinful of alcohol and "Waiting for God" playing on the TV ( for my wife) My son and grandson arrive from London in a few days .in case they miss my demise but I haven't even seen the Heart specialist yet and have wait till November..

[elZorro]

Amazing the ideas that run through my mind as I sit here with a skinful of alcohol and "Waiting for God" playing on the TV ( for my wife) My son and grandson arrive from London in a few days .in case they miss my demise but I haven't even seen the Heart specialist yet and have wait till November..

You can't be too bad then, Craic. I wouldn't have thought your latest home brew was ready yet, though.:)

[craic]

I bottled five dozen beers in the past few days and I have a brew of wash for the still almost ready. Tomorrow, the big event is a trip to town for a haircut. In spite of my age I have a lot of hair and though it doesn't bother me, it bothers my wife. The race meeting at tauherinikau has been abandoned tomorrow, so it's a rather dull day for me. Maybe a lunch at Ankor Wat will help - nothing like a good pie and a doughnut to raise the spirits.

[Joshuatree]

i know of someone who set out to make a couple of dozens bottles of fruit bubbly for his wake. he even designed the labels which said "WAKE UP", a reminder to those of us still here to make good use of our time.

[minimoke]

That's probably the best possible outcome, and highly likely 'cos I think that's the way he has decided to go.
We'll Know within a week or two.
I'm concerned its looking like National.

That Peters isn't prepared to have Greens around the negotiating table doesn't bode well for a sign that he is prepared to work with them around the cabinet table. Also it appears only policy has been discussed - not ministerial positions. I cant see the Greens ratifying a deal unless there is an offer of Min of Environment on the table.

I'm struggling with Green leadership if James Shaw will simply "trust" Jacinda to eek out a deal. Labour wont have forgotten how good Greens are at deals when they put up a last minute candidate in Ohariu contrary to pre-agreement. And he does know, I presume, the Labour / Green MOU expired on Election day - there is no obligation for Labour to do anything for the Greens. Labours sole responsibility is to their constituency

[winner69]

Jacinda at the Green Parrot ....going to become the new cabinet room

And diplomatic protection boys in attendance ....hmmm

[fungus pudding]

I'm concerned its looking like National.

That Peters isn't prepared to have Greens around the negotiating table doesn't bode well for a sign that he is prepared to work with them around the cabinet table. Also it appears only policy has been discussed - not ministerial positions. I cant see the Greens ratifying a deal unless there is an offer of Min of Environment on the table.

I'm struggling with Green leadership if James Shaw will simply "trust" Jacinda to eek out a deal. Labour wont have forgotten how good Greens are at deals when they put up a last minute candidate in Ohariu contrary to pre-agreement. And he does know, I presume, the Labour / Green MOU expired on Election day - there is no obligation for Labour to do anything for the Greens. Labours sole responsibility is to their constituency

I think it's highly likely Winston and Labour might go into coalition, meaning Green's only option will be the cross-benches. This will give the coalition security because the Kermits will never vote with National. This would leave the Kermits with little power, but out of Winston First's face. That would explain why he sees no need to meet them before his big announcement.

[westerly]

I think it's highly likely Winston and Labour might go into coalition, meaning Green's only option will be the cross-benches. This will give the coalition security because the Kermits will never vote with National. This would leave the Kermits with little power, but out of Winston First's face. That would explain why he sees no need to meet them before his big announcement.

There is more entertainment in this thread than I have had for many years reading and contributing. What ever happens life wll go on and more than likely things wlll not change very much. They are all politicians after all with their main objective being to retain or improve their position.:)

westerly

[minimoke]

There is more entertainment in this thread than I have had for many years reading and contributing. Just wait till the government is formed - there will be loads more fun to be had then!

[fungus pudding]

There is more entertainment in this thread than I have had for many years reading and contributing. What ever happens life wll go on and more than likely things wlll not change very much.

westerly

Do you really believe that comrade? Look at the changes in 1984. Of ccourse they were mainly for the better and jet propelled NZ into the twentieth century - albeit several decades late. But that shows just how much a govt. can turn things around. Then consider today's Labour party - loaded with green eyes wannabees, led by a brain-washed socialist, and paired with Winston First whose every utterence is about the past - 'the good old days of the 1950s'. There is real concern we would go backwards under a Labour/Winston coalition.
We are doing better slong with the rest of the world. We should stay on track.

https://www.sciencealert.com/these-7-charts-show-the-world-is-better-than-ever-even-if-things-seem-apocalyptic?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

[Joshuatree]

I have no idea which party will get it but i believe the hookerTAXi party national will stop for winston and offer a free ride but change the meter once he is in the taxi, they will do anything to get back in, they have proven that with this election.

[winner69]

Do you really believe that comrade? Look at the changes in 1984. Of ccourse they were mainly for the better and jet propelled NZ into the twentieth century - albeit several decades late. But that shows just how much a govt. can turn things around. Then consider today's Labour party - loaded with green eyes wannabees, led by a brain-washed socialist, and paired with Winston First whose every utterence is about the past - 'the good old days of the 1950s'. There is real concern we would go backwards under a Labour/Winston coalition.
We are doing better slong with the rest of the world. We should stay on track.
https://www.sciencealert.com/these-7-charts-show-the-world-is-better-than-ever-even-if-things-seem-apocalyptic?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

quote of the day ...no, of the last month

[Joshuatree]

Entertaining laugh of the week and yes so last month, reminds me of ummm, aah b english and his transparent fictitious stability through deception politicking , putting it politely, lying more bluntly. I just hope this really is winstons last term and he really does want to leave the country in a better place at the end of his term/turn.

[iceman]

The NZF President response to NBR when asked who is on their Board is that "You don't need to know their names. As simple as that and you just have to live with it". This Winston party is a joke

[fungus pudding]

The NZF President response to NBR when asked who is on their Board is that "You don't need to know their names. As simple as that and you just have to live with it". This Winston party is a joke

He's right though. Who cares who they are! they'll be a bunch of headnodders waiting to rubber stamp whatever Winston says.

[elZorro]

Entertaining laugh of the week and yes so last month, reminds me of ummm, aah b english and his transparent fictitious stability through deception politicking , putting it politely, lying more bluntly. I just hope this really is winstons last term and he really does want to leave the country in a better place at the end of his term/turn.

Yes, I hope so too. I'll be pretty disappointed for NZ generally, if the National Party holds the power for yet another term.

Hopefully there are plenty of agitators within NZ First pushing for a change.

[minimoke]

He's right though. Who cares who they are! they'll be a bunch of headnodders waiting to rubber stamp whatever Winston says.
Winston Peters, Ron Mark, Kristin Campbell Smith, Claire Ashley, Toa Greening, Robert Monds, Anne Marie Andrews, Kevin Gardener, Sue Sara Brent Catchpole, Julian Paul, John Thorn, Holly Hopkinson. Maybe Ann Martin

[fungus pudding]

Winston Peters, Ron Mark, Kristin Campbell Smith, Claire Ashley, Toa Greening, Robert Monds, Anne Marie Andrews, Kevin Gardener, Sue Sara Brent Catchpole, Julian Paul, John Thorn, Holly Hopkinson. Maybe Ann Martin

All headnodders to the great Winston.

[minimoke]

Yes, I hope so too. I'll be pretty disappointed for NZ generally, if the National Party holds the power for yet another term.Can't see why you would be disappointed. Its the party who most, by a long chalk, new zealanders voted for


Hopefully there are plenty of agitators within NZ First pushing for a change.The same could be said for the Greens. One things for sure - neither party will be agitating from within their electorate offices since they couldn't even win one of those.

[fungus pudding]

Winston says food prices are playing a part in negotiations. If either National or Labour agree to remove GST from some food items, I will never ever vote for that party again. So there.

I doubt if National would be so naïve to agree to that, but Labour are so naïve they would almost certainly agree.

[Joshuatree]

black men all hail - YouTube (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj7zfrI9enWAhWIoJQKHVNkAdwQtwIIJTAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dbx SgdVHWJoE&usg=AOvVaw0k6_ZdRo2AslLEfTOqBDYJ)

[winner69]

Winnie is looking a bit tired tonite on TV

Hope he doesn't die on us at this stage - might complicate things a bit

Could be given the Prime Minister and Sir posthumously though.

[fungus pudding]

Winnie is looking a bit tired tonite on TV

Hope he doesn't die on us at this stage - might complicate things a bit

Could be given the Prime Minister and Sir posthumously though.

Nah - they wouldn't bother. He'll have to stay on his meat platters to get Knighted.

[westerly]

Do you really believe that comrade? Look at the changes in 1984. Of ccourse they were mainly for the better and jet propelled NZ into the twentieth century - albeit several decades late. But that shows just how much a govt. can turn things around. Then consider today's Labour party - loaded with green eyes wannabees, led by a brain-washed socialist, and paired with Winston First whose every utterence is about the past - 'the good old days of the 1950s'. There is real concern we would go backwards under a Labour/Winston coalition.
We are doing better slong with the rest of the world. We should stay on track.

https://www.sciencealert.com/these-7-charts-show-the-world-is-better-than-ever-even-if-things-seem-apocalyptic?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

What amazing rhetoric from a Conservative. Take some of your advice to EZ and have a Kit Kat. As for the link, I don't think much of what is listed applies to NZ
westerly

[elZorro]

Corin Dann thinks we won't hear from NZ First before Monday, and considering there has been no bartering of ministerial posts (I guess that has to wait until after they've decided which side to run with, if that is the choice), there is still a lot of negotiating to do.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97799911/winston-peters-last-day-of-coalition-meetings-begins

[iceman]

Corin Dann thinks we won't hear from NZ First before Monday, and considering there has been no bartering of ministerial posts (I guess that has to wait until after they've decided which side to run with, if that is the choice), there is still a lot of negotiating to do.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97799911/winston-peters-last-day-of-coalition-meetings-begins

Yes we are not even close to any formation of Government. Why Winston gave that silly deadline of 12 October when everyone else said it was challenging or impossible, is beyond me. But of course he keeps himself firmly in the spotlight for another week or so which is what he thrives on.

[winner69]

Yes we are not even close to any formation of Government. Why Winston gave that silly deadline of 12 October when everyone else said it was challenging or impossible, is beyond me. But of course he keeps himself firmly in the spotlight for another week or so which is what he thrives on.

It was the Press who made up that October 12 date

They misunderstood Winston ...yeah right

Sort of hope both Jacinda and Bill tell Winston to take a running leap

[iceman]

It was the Press who made up that October 12 date

They misunderstood Winston ...yeah right

Sort of hope both Jacinda and Bill tell Winston to take a running leap

They are trying to make flight bookings for the faceless Board. After the funerals they have to attend. So all good !!

[fungus pudding]

It was the Press who made up that October 12 date

They misunderstood Winston ...yeah right

Sort of hope both Jacinda and Bill tell Winston to take a running leap

It was the press who came up with the bottom lines too. Winston said so. Says he'd never mentioned bottom lines. If it wasn't for Wiston's time proven honesty (think NO), we could be forgiven for thinking he's lost a few marbles.

[BlackPeter]

They are trying to make flight bookings for the faceless Board. After the funerals they have to attend. So all good !!

Must be difficult to book flights for faceless people. Is this allowed in NZ - I thought you need a photo ID?

Just hope they have a brain given their face is missing ...

[winner69]

It was the press who came up with the bottom lines too. Winston said so. Says he'd never mentioned bottom lines. If it wasn't for Wiston's time proven honesty (think NO), we could be forgiven for thinking he's lost a few marbles.

there was going to be a story along those lines that was going to be published a week or so before the election but somehow it got pulled

[fungus pudding]

Must be difficult to book flights for faceless people. Is this allowed in NZ - I thought you need a photo ID?

Just hope they have a brain given their face is missing ...

Good point. I think you can fly internally with no face, but not international. Which means they can never escape.

[minimoke]

Must be difficult to book flights for faceless people..
Jetstar or AirNZ will be the first of the difficult decisions to be made. They will need a few days for that alone.

[craic]

As a National voter in this election, I hope that Peters goes with Labour. I stand to lose or gain little or nothing from the result. But I am thoroughly jerked by the idea that a small bunch of nobodies will sit under the directions of a politician who could not even hold his own seat and will direct the future of the nation for the next three years. That Bill English has gone along with this process without rancour leaves me with the decision that I will not waste shoe leather going to the polls at the next election - if I am still alive.

[RGR367]

................ - if I am still alive.

Live Long and Prosper Craic! We voted and whether we want the result, it's up for WP (da pak) to decide.

[fungus pudding]

As a National voter in this election, I hope that Peters goes with Labour. I stand to lose or gain little or nothing from the result. But I am thoroughly jerked by the idea that a small bunch of nobodies will sit under the directions of a politician who could not even hold his own seat and will direct the future of the nation for the next three years. That Bill English has gone along with this process without rancour leaves me with the decision that I will not waste shoe leather going to the polls at the next election - if I am still alive.

Never ever give up your duty, which is to vote against the worst party - which is presumably why you voted National this time.

[macduffy]

As a National voter in this election, I hope that Peters goes with Labour. I stand to lose or gain little or nothing from the result. But I am thoroughly jerked by the idea that a small bunch of nobodies will sit under the directions of a politician who could not even hold his own seat and will direct the future of the nation for the next three years. That Bill English has gone along with this process without rancour leaves me with the decision that I will not waste shoe leather going to the polls at the next election - if I am still alive.

Echos the sentiments of many of the 93% who didn't vote for NZF - myself included. So much for the virtues of MMP!

[winner69]

NZ central bank was the the pioneer of the inflation-targeting regime. Inflation target has become the global economic orthodoxy.

now Jacinda and Winston are going to change all that .....and probably stuff the country up in the process

But then some will say things need to change ....and we'll look look back in 30 years time and say heck that Jacinda was one smart cookie.

[Sgt Pepper]

Never ever give up your duty, which is to vote against the worst party - which is presumably why you voted National this time.

National NZ First Negotiation meeting

Bill English:" Ok Winston what do you require of us?'

Winston " 1) Access to Pike River Mine to retrieve the deceased,
2)Nationalisation of all the means of production, distribution, and exchange
3) Cut immigration for non-NZ passport holders to 5000 per year
4) increase minimum wage to $25.00 per hour
5) ban all sales of assets and property to foreigners
6) throw Steven Joyce, Amy Adams, Michael Woodhouse and Simon Bridges under a (political) bus
7) I will be deputy Prime Minister and NZ frst will have one-third of all cabinet positions
8) Declare a Republic in 2020 and make me the first President of New Zealand

Bill English "Well Winston, National is a party of principle and I will have to carefully consider your demands and whether they align with our core values"

ten seconds later

Bill English " I agree, lets shake on it."

[Joshuatree]

Lol good one , Bill will be bending over to accomodate what winston wants.Other answers.

Bill English yes sure Winston, what else?
Bill English yes absolutely ; is that all?

[blackcap]

Bit of movement on the markets:

This morning it was:

Bill 72% Jacinda 28%

Now it is"

Bill 64% Jacinda 36%

[minimoke]

Lol good one , Bill will be bending over to accomodate what winston wants.
You dont think Jacinda will be doing exactly the same thing?

[fungus pudding]

there was going to be a story along those lines that was going to be published a week or so before the election but somehow it got pulled

Where was it going to be published? Who wrote it? Who pulled it? Why? There's every reason to be sceptical about stories involving politicians - even plonkers like Winston.

I note now he's denying he claimed one or some of his board would be held up because of a funeral. That adds to the result on the12th that 'the media made up', as well as denying he ever claimed to have bottom lines.
This is the man who's 'going to keep them honest'.

[fungus pudding]

What amazing rhetoric from a Conservative. Take some of your advice to EZ and have a Kit Kat. As for the link, I don't think much of what is listed applies to NZ
westerly

I don't know what a conservative is. I only know I'm not one.

[Joshuatree]

You dont think Jacinda will be doing exactly the same thing?

No. Look at how the campaign was run. National , negative,smearing , lying ,dirty unprincipled, Labour ,positive , detailed, accurate, principled,genuine

Look at the policies, labour and nz first are much more aligned .

[777]

No. Look at how the campaign was run. National , negative,smearing , lying ,dirty unprincipled, Labour ,positive , detailed, accurate, principled,genuine

Look at the policies, labour and nz first are much more aligned .

Your personal fantasy world.

[minimoke]

Look at the policies, labour and nz first are much more aligned .
I am really interested in the policies Labour/NZ First have mashed together. Shame they don't want to let us poor voters know what they have been up to.

[blackcap]

You dont think Jacinda will be doing exactly the same thing?

Jacinda will be bending over just as far if not further than Bill. They are politicians. that is what they do. Labour play a dirty game and play dirty politics very well. With the sanctimonious cloak of pretending to be the good guy but underneath..... (just my humble opinion from observations of course)

[iceman]

Your personal fantasy world.

It sure is his fantasy world. What's more, when they talk about Labour and NZF having many things in common (bring me another Tui), they completely ignore the fact that they can't form a majority Government. They need the Greens and they have very very little in common with Winston. He won' t even talk to them.

[craic]

And now I see that the police are in trouble for describing a fat criminal as fat.

[Joshuatree]

Thats fine guys i have no interest in preaching to the converted esp if one can't tell the difference between whats acceptable and whats not with peoples behaviour ; it just reflects whats acceptable with our own behaviour whether its politicking or teaching your child about honesty and whats good and right with the world and whats not.

Hey craic maybe obese crook is more acceptable:). Or a gross robber or a lard arse bandit.

[Joshuatree]

It sure is his fantasy world. What's more, when they talk about Labour and NZF having many things in common (bring me another Tui), they completely ignore the fact that they can't form a majority Government. They need the Greens and they have very very little in common with Winston. He won' t even talk to them.

Even Winston knows about the environmental problems happening here and globally.Never a better time to have the greens in power to improve our situ and think global act local be a catalyst for others to follow suit. Stagnate if you wish to but be it in your own pool of your own making.

[Joshuatree]

I have liked Gordon campbell's journalism for a long time pertinent and common sense

"If Peters can lend his experience to an untried leadership, his career will continue to be significant. Otherwise, he’s just going to be a footnote in the history of the National Party"
Werewolf: What Does Winston Peters Want His Legacy To Be? (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/10/what-does-winston-peters-want-his-legacy-to-be/)

[couta1]

I have liked Gordon campbell's journalism for a long time pertinent and common sense

"If Peters can lend his experience to an untried leadership, his career will continue to be significant. Otherwise, he’s just going to be a footnote in the history of the National Party"
Werewolf: What Does Winston Peters Want His Legacy To Be? (http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/10/what-does-winston-peters-want-his-legacy-to-be/) Peter's is poison wherever he goes, which party is going to take a bite of the poison apple this time? Whichever party does will only serve one three year term, that's the spell they will come under for biting the apple. Still looks better for National with four terms in comparison to Labour getting just one term before being ditched(That's assuming the poison doesn't prove fatal before the three years is up)

[Joshuatree]

Its worth reading the article couta, getting another opinion.Gordon makes sense.

[winner69]

https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/7095h9/apparently_a_news_article_is_going_to_drop_this/

[Joshuatree]

RNZ National on verge of being number one station in the country (http://stoppress.co.nz/news/rnz-national-verge-being-number-one-station-country) :t_up:

[elZorro]

https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/7095h9/apparently_a_news_article_is_going_to_drop_this/

Disturbing insights about Winston there, if true. You have to say that every MP in parliament must have more than the usual share of ego. For a kickoff, they have their faces plastered all over the electorate. MPs need to behave within their party rules, although there is no formal code of conduct enforced or legislated by parliament. But it's surely a given that MPs need to have a sound mind to serve in office on behalf of constituents.

Bryce has a tidy/compelling list of 13 reasons for Winston to go with Labour-Greens. (Earlier, he had 10 for National).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11932628

[iceman]

Even Winston knows about the environmental problems happening here and globally.Never a better time to have the greens in power to improve our situ and think global act local be a catalyst for others to follow suit. Stagnate if you wish to but be it in your own pool of your own making.

Everyone knows about the environmental challenges we face. Nearly everyone also agrees we need to do something serious about it. What if Winston went into Government with National and they decided to do something really serious about cleaning up our rivers for example, i.e. pour hundreds of millions into just doing it ? It would leave The Greens with yet another egg on their face and leave them even more irrelevant than they are already. They are just a bunch of protesters that have no idea how to use politics to their advantage, sadly.

[winner69]

Everyone knows about the environmental challenges we face. Nearly everyone also agrees we need to do something serious about it. What if Winston went into Government with National and they decided to something really serious about cleaning up our rivers for example, i.e. poor hundred of millions into just doing it ? It would leave The Greens with yet another egg on their face and leave them even more irrelevant than they are already. They are just a bunch of protesters that have no idea how to use politics to their advantage, sadly.

So true - the next three years could have been their time as part of a NAt Green government

Pig headedness prevailed though

[minimoke]

So true - the next three years could have been their time as part of a NAt Green government

Pig headedness prevailed thoughOne of NZ First environmental polices is "Make rivers and lakes fully swimmable by town and country working together."

Whats the bet this is one of the things on the table and it will be something both Labour and National will agree to. If there is a Minister of Waterways who will get the job. NZ First. The Greens are going to be redundant. No concessions on policy as Labour / NZ First will have the upper hand. No ministerial positions because their policy isn't at the forefront.

The only challenging job ahead of the Greens is decide who the next co-leader is going to be. And aint that going to be a hospital pass. Someone to help lead them into obscurity.

[iceman]

One of NZ First environmental polices is "Make rivers and lakes fully swimmable by town and country working together."

Whats the bet this is one of the things on the table and it will be something both Labour and National will agree to. If there is a Minister of Waterways who will get the job. NZ First. The Greens are going to be redundant. No concessions on policy as Labour / NZ First will have the upper hand. No ministerial positions because their policy isn't at the forefront.

The only challenging job ahead of the Greens is decide who the next co-leader is going to be. And aint that going to be a hospital pass. Someone to help lead them into obscurity.

Agree mm. I think cleaning up the waterways will be agreed to as a high priority by the next Government,as it should be and The Greens will have nothing to do with it.

[Joshuatree]

Everyone knows about the environmental challenges we face. Nearly everyone also agrees we need to do something serious about it. What if Winston went into Government with National and they decided to do something really serious about cleaning up our rivers for example, i.e. pour hundreds of millions into just doing it ? It would leave The Greens with yet another egg on their face and leave them even more irrelevant than they are already. They are just a bunch of protesters that have no idea how to use politics to their advantage, sadly.

Without the greens national will stay in their default position not giving a stuff but putting out token meaningless scraps which their base will snigger and wink about. Putting the greens with national would be like putting a ferret in a pigeons nest; they are not compatible based on the past and the contempt which sadly seems to have leaked into the subterranium zombie cortex of blind followers many of whom still deny global warming and pollution issues here. Blind leading the blind. Its impossible the greens have principles national have minimal.
i was struck by the beaming radiant smiles from jacinda and team as they left the last day of negotiations; it looked like they were trying to hold something exciting back, heres hoping the right thing will be done for our country.

[fungus pudding]

Without the greens national will stay in their default position not giving a stuff but putting out token meaningless scraps which their base will snigger and wink about. Putting the greens with national would be like putting a ferret in a pigeons nest; they are not compatible based on the past and the contempt which sadly seems to have leaked into the subterranium zombie cortex of blind followers many of whom still deny global warming and pollution issues here. Blind leading the blind. Its impossible the greens have principles national have minimal.
i was struck by the beaming radiant smiles from jacinda and team as they left the last day of negotiations; it looked like they were trying to hold something exciting back, heres hoping the right thing will be done for our country.

Winston has assured us he will be doing the right thing for the country, which you can interpret as doing the best thing for Winston even if it's the worst thing for the country; that is going with Labour.

[winner69]

The only challenging job ahead of the Greens is decide who the next co-leader is going to be. And aint that going to be a hospital pass. Someone to help lead them into obscurity.

I'd say a new leader and new co-leader

[minimoke]

the greens have principles .The Greens quite ably reflected their principles through Meteria Turei.

She is the one advocating for those poverty but gets to live in a castle.

The benefits paid by the tax payer and good enough for every one else weren't good enough for her. So she deceitfully took more.

And she so respected our long held democratic process that she rigged her address to get into an electorate that wasn't hers to support a colleague.

All made worse that no-one in the Greens seems to see anything wrong with this . But at least we can measure these unprincipled people - all 6.3% of electors who chose to vote. Each and everyone of them should be ashamed of themselves.

i was struck by the beaming radiant smiles from jacinda and team as they left the last day of negotiations; it looked like they were trying to hold something exciting back,.Next you'll be looking for a room.

[minimoke]

I'd say a new leader and new co-leader
I'd agree - except one of the Greens Principles is sexism. That is one of the leaders has to be based on his maleness not on his ability. So that leaves Gareth Hughes. Anyone care to share his leadership abilities?

Other than that who have you got. No-one. But image Julie Anne Genter, Eugenie Sage and Jan Logie all vying for the two spots. And any two winning them.

[Fatboyj]

GG national. I for one welcome another blue term until Jacinda is let loose of her reins. She'll make a fine filly, but only when she's broken in.

[fungus pudding]

I'd say a new leader and new co-leader

I'd say drop the co-leader nonsense and appoint a leader.

[Joshuatree]

Yes english and bennett can go away and do a vaudeville show together around the provinces and sell snake oil:D

[Major von Tempsky]

I'd agree - except one of the Greens Principles is sexism. That is one of the leaders has to be based on his maleness not on his ability. So that leaves Gareth Hughes. Anyone care to share his leadership abilities?

Other than that who have you got. No-one. But image Julie Anne Genter, Eugenie Sage and Jan Logie all vying for the two spots. And any two winning them.

Nah, Chloe Swarbrick is far better looking. And you saw what happened with Jacinda....

[minimoke]

Yes english and bennett can go away and do a vaudeville show together around the provinces and sell snake oil:D
Punters know snake oil when they see it. Which is why Labour has been in opposition the past 9 years and the Greens have yet to sit in government and why even today Labour and Greens combined cant cobble together a majority. NZ First is proof there are always some punters who can be suckered in.

[elZorro]

Jacinda's sounding upbeat about the talks with NZ First. Sounds like the compromises that they've agreed on as part of a coalition, are quite acceptable. This makes sense, since Labour's policies are quite similar to NZ First's. Just have to wait now.

http://www.labour.org.nz/update_on_the_talks?utm_campaign=17104_update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

[fungus pudding]

Jacinda's sounding upbeat about the talks with NZ First. Sounds like the compromises that they've agreed on as part of a coalition, are quite acceptable. This makes sense, since Labour's policies are quite similar to NZ First's. Just have to wait now.

http://www.labour.org.nz/update_on_the_talks?utm_campaign=17104_update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nzlabour

Labour's policies are not as silly as Winston's. Actually they're not even close. Very few of winston's make much sense.

[artemis]

Labour's policies are not as silly as Winston's. Actually they're not even close. Very few of winston's make much sense.

No tax refund without a prostate exam. Fabulous idea. It came to him in a vision I expect. Would women's doctors have to certify they had a cervical smear? Maybe a mammogram. What about if the person had tax to pay? Two down below exams required?

[fungus pudding]

No tax refund without a prostate exam. Fabulous idea. It came to him in a vision I expect. Would women's doctors have to certify they had a cervical smear? Maybe a mammogram. What about if the person had tax to pay? Two down below exams required?

Yes. Got to admit it's up there with the best of Labour's brainwaves alright. Although I thought it meant loss of govt. superannuation. You know, the universal one

[minimoke]

No tax refund without a prostate exam. Fabulous idea. It came to him in a vision I expect. Would women's doctors have to certify they had a cervical smear? Maybe a mammogram. What about if the person had tax to pay? Two down below exams required?
Winston has obviously forgotten tax originally belongs to the earner. Giving it back shouldn't come with such intrusive provisos.

I leant a new word the other day: "Intaxicaton" (see what has been done there!). The definition is "Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with". The root of this word might explain Winston's idea.

[fungus pudding]

Winston has obviously forgotten tax originally belongs to the earner. Giving it back shouldn't come with such intrusive provisos.

I leant a new word the other day: "Intaxicaton" (see what has been done there!). The definition is "Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with". The root of this word might explain Winston's idea.

So many of Winston's policies and even his bottom lines, which he's forgotten he had, don't stand up to half a minutes scrutiny. It's a credit to his charisma that he can spout so much nonsense, and still gain a fan club, cos it's not the policies that do it.

[craic]

Looks like every ones out-Winstoned today?

[elZorro]

Looks like every ones out-Winstoned today?

The Greens are ready to discuss and sign off on a deal.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/greens-teleconference-ready-to-go.html

[BlackPeter]

The Greens are ready to discuss and sign off on a deal.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/greens-teleconference-ready-to-go.html

LOL - how low can the Green bunch sink?


The Greens have to be part of a centre-left deal because Labour and NZ First don't have enough seats between them for a majority.

Despite that, they haven't taken part in the negotiations with NZ First because leader Winston Peters won't deal with them as a separate party.


I guess if the Greenies would have traces of self respect left than they would baulk at this treatment. However - given that they are only the Left-wing attachment of Labour not able to survive without them they will rubberstamp anything which is offered.

Jacinda's doormat must have more self-respect and independence than the Green Party ...

[elZorro]

LOL - how low can the Green bunch sink?


Bill didn't sound too positive about the extent of any proposal from their side (TV1 interview), it's only partly completed at the moment. What if Labour's is far further forward? What would that mean?

[blackcap]

Update from the markets.... they have it at about 50:50 now... go figure :)

[iceman]

LOL - how low can the Green bunch sink?



I guess if the Greenies would have traces of self respect left than they would baulk at this treatment. However - given that they are only the Left-wing attachment of Labour not able to survive without them they will rubberstamp anything which is offered.

Jacinda's doormat must have more self-respect and independence than the Green Party ...

Not much further one would think. If they can sign off on a deal without knowing what it is about, they are indeed a pathetic bunch that noone will take seriously again. Winston is playing them for all its worth and making sure noone votes for them ever again. And then he'll probably go with National anyway !!

[winner69]

i'd go with a wink wink rather than a hmm hmm nothings been decided

Spose we have to support Winston and Jacinda and give them a chance - until this time next year

[minimoke]

Bill didn't sound too positive about the extent of any proposal from their side (TV1 interview), it's only partly completed at the moment....... What would that mean?
Moving closer to my preferred option.

[fungus pudding]

Moving closer to my preferred option.

Which is .......???

[minimoke]

Which is .......???
Labour / NZ First / Green Coalition with inevitable implosion in 18 months

[fungus pudding]

Labour / NZ First / Green Coalition with inevitable implosion in 18 months

Thought that was your ideal. Problem will be, how do we get the show back on track after the trio of dismals have done their thing?

[minimoke]

how do we get the show back on track after the trifecta of dismals have done their thing?
That is the important question - and depends on how much damage is done between now and then. But out of carnage opportunities will arise so the other questions will be how do we best position ourselves to take advantage of those opportunities.

[BlackPeter]

https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/secret-code-deciphering-winston

Eye opening article. If it comes to the truth there is no big difference between Winston and Donald ... and hey - aren't they as well brothers at heart in their attempt to fight the free press?

Obviously - Winston is smaller ... and wants to make only New Zealand great again ....

[fungus pudding]

9231

NZ First board meeting.

[blackcap]

Does someone know something or is the market being stupid. National just got matched at 1.11 and Labour at 10's. Or is it a mug punter taking a position?

[craic]

What betting site? I couldn't find it only a site that had closed betting on the NZ Govt. 1.11 is odds on or you get to make one dollar for every 11 you outlay and that would suggest that the bookie knows as much as Winston Peters

[BlackPeter]

Does someone know something or is the market being stupid. National just got matched at 1.11 and Labour at 10's. Or is it a mug punter taking a position?

Winston probably placing his bets. I think he used to be minister of gambling (or was it racing?) and might get this position as well?

Who knows ...

[blackcap]

What betting site? I couldn't find it only a site that had closed betting on the NZ Govt. 1.11 is odds on or you get to make one dollar for every 11 you outlay and that would suggest that the bookie knows as much as Winston Peters

www.betfair.com

THe market is still open because its the market of who will provide the next PM. Although it was probably a false alarm as the odds are more to where they were earlier today. That said its pretty thin at the moment. National best bid is 1.21 and Labour 2.22, although this morning there was heaps to be had on National at 1.52, that is all gone now.

[Beagle]

Are we there yet ????????????????? I am sure I'm not the only one sick of being held hostage. Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

[BlackPeter]

Are we there yet ????????????????? I am sure I'm not the only one sick of being held hostage. Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

Remember - it is the tail wagging not one but two dogs - a trick your beagles probably still need to work on ;).

I guess we need to give Winnie some credit for the high art of circus - and practising for this just takes a bit longer;

BTW - I gave up waiting ... I am sure at some stage the markets will tell us what the outcome of Winnie's consideration might be, no matter whether we want to know or not.

[Fatboyj]

9231

NZ First board meeting.

LOL that's excellent.

[minimoke]

... I am sure I'm not the only one sick of being held hostage.......
This whole "we are being held hostage" is a crock of sh1te. No we arent!

Just like last time the world keeps turning. We have a fully functioning public service, laws that were passed are still being implemented, bureaucrats are still working on projects. We even have a government in place if executive orders need to be passed. You can still go to your local MP and complain about the neighbours dog barking all day or try to get an extension of your work visa. And (surprisingly) our share market seems unperturbed.

The only thing we dont know is what the legislative programme looks like. Given there are really no hugely pressing issues (the poor still keep getting fed their benefits, the un-housed still get access to motels the rain is still falling freely into our rivers and no matter what nothing we do or dont do will alter the climate changing) it doesn't matter that law changes aren't being drafted.

Kinda suits some of us who prefer less government. But I can see those that like lots of government intervention will be starting to get a bit toey.

[minimoke]

Remember - it is the tail wagging not one but two dogs - a trick your beagles probably still need to work on ;).


Given the intelligence of Beagles I'm surprised they would even know where there tail was. Scroll right to the very bottom! http://petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html

[BlackPeter]

This whole "we are being held hostage" is a crock of sh1te. No we arent!

Just like last time the world keeps turning. We have a fully functioning public service, laws that were passed are still being implemented, bureaucrats are still working on projects. We even have a government in place if executive orders need to be passed. You can still go to your local MP and complain about the neighbours dog barking all day or try to get an extension of your work visa. And (surprisingly) our share market seems unperturbed.

The only thing we dont know is what the legislative programme looks like. Given there are really no hugely pressing issues (the poor still keep getting fed their benefits, the un-housed still get access to motels the rain is still falling freely into our rivers and no matter what nothing we do or dont do will alter the climate changing) it doesn't matter that law changes aren't being drafted.

Kinda suits some of us who prefer less government. But I can see those that like lots of government intervention will be starting to get a bit toey.

You have a point - but just to a point.

Significant parts of the economy are currently on hold. Sure - the supermarkets are still selling milk, but nobody in their right mind would start a new housing project without knowing whether they perhaps miss out some subsidies the new government might come up with. Companies are holding back investments for the same reasons and might be as well very careful to make new employment commitments until they know whether they are later on able to control their employment cost (remembers Winnie's crazy minimum wage or as well Labours ideas of empowering the unions).

Turn it like you will - uncertainty creates lost opportunity cost. We all will pay for them.

[Beagle]

Given the intelligence of Beagles I'm surprised they would even know where there tail was. Scroll right to the very bottom! http://petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html

http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/beagle/ Yes, and No but anyway look how cute they are and all sins and shortcomings are quickly forgotten !!!!

[fungus pudding]

Winston's board meeting predicted to go on for several hours yet. Something tells me that one or two of the Winstons don't agree with the head Winston, cos the head Winston has known since before the election. Maybe they will park themselves on the cross-benches.

[Beagle]

You have a point - but just to a point.

Significant parts of the economy are currently on hold. Sure - the supermarkets are still selling milk, but nobody in their right mind would start a new housing project without knowing whether they perhaps miss out some subsidies the new government might come up with. Companies are holding back investments for the same reasons and might be as well very careful to make new employment commitments until they know whether they are later on able to control their employment cost (remembers Winnie's crazy minimum wage or as well Labours ideas of empowering the unions).

Turn it like you will - uncertainty creates lost opportunity cost. We all will pay for them.

Well said. Any large project that could potentially be affected by how this coin toss turns out is quite possibly currently on hold.

[minimoke]

Well said. Any large project that could potentially be affected by how this coin toss turns out is quite possibly currently on hold.
This point is being overcooked
Any significant law change is at least 18 months away. No sensible business will hold on that long.

The converse side of the argument is conditions may be more favorable now so best to just get on with it. Delaying may have a lost opportunity cost.

[minimoke]

http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/beagle/ Yes, and No but anyway look how cute they are and all sins and shortcomings are quickly forgotten !!!!

Aww - how sweet. Sounding just like a Labour supporter backing jacinda

[blackcap]

Ok that market is all over the shop. I just got matched on Labour at 2.22 for not a little amount. So from Labour a $10 shot 3 hours ago to now matched at $2.22, I do not think anyone knows anything.

[fungus pudding]

Ok that market is all over the shop. I just got matched on Labour at 2.22 for not a little amount. So from Labour a $10 shot 3 hours ago to now matched at $2.22, I do not think anyone knows anything.

Winston does.

[Beagle]

Aww - how sweet. Sounding just like a Labour supporter backing jacinda

LOL Beagle's are cute and harmless to anyone unless sorely provoked, on the other hand...

[elZorro]

LOL Beagle's are cute and harmless to anyone unless sorely provoked, on the other hand...

Can't beat springer spaniels, if you have enough energy to keep up with them.

No decision from NZ First tonight. http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/341645/nz-first-board-to-meet-again-tomorrow

[minimoke]

No decision from NZ First tonight. http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/341645/nz-first-board-to-meet-again-tomorrow
Might be the first time the Board Members have been to a big city and stayed in a hotel. No point rushing things.

[Rep]

NZ First leader Winston Peters said Key was trying to keep the public in ignorance over the TPP.
"But New Zealanders deserve to know what rights are being negotiated away by this government," he said.
"The prime minister is misleading when he says the public will have the chance to have their say on the content of the TPP during the select committee process.
"They will have their say over the associated legislation that New Zealand will have to implement to agree to the terms of the TPP.
"But they will not get a say on the text of the treaty as that will have already been ratified by Cabinet."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9708400/Labour-TPP-transparency-push-blocked

The irony is that when the tables are turned...
Don't New Zealanders deserve to know what is being negotiated away by the main parties
Isn't this misleading that the public will be able to have their say about the policies in the next term of government
That they won't get their say over the legislation and policies as they will already been ratified by the coalition?

[Baa_Baa]

NZ First leader Winston Peters said Key was trying to keep the public in ignorance over the TPP.
"But New Zealanders deserve to know what rights are being negotiated away by this government," he said.
"The prime minister is misleading when he says the public will have the chance to have their say on the content of the TPP during the select committee process.
"They will have their say over the associated legislation that New Zealand will have to implement to agree to the terms of the TPP.
"But they will not get a say on the text of the treaty as that will have already been ratified by Cabinet."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9708400/Labour-TPP-transparency-push-blocked

The irony is that when the tables are turned...
Don't New Zealanders deserve to know what is being negotiated away by the main parties
Isn't this misleading that the public will be able to have their say about the policies in the next term of government
That they won't get their say over the legislation and policies as they will already been ratified by the coalition?

Precisely, it's a farce, the anathema of democracy, but the public seem to have no idea they're being shafted either which way they vote. MMP is really screwed up, it's a system that creates winners from losers and deny's the democratic process and popular opinion which in itself beggars belief.

[artemis]

..... The irony is that when the tables are turned...
Don't New Zealanders deserve to know what is being negotiated away by the main parties
Isn't this misleading that the public will be able to have their say about the policies in the next term of government
That they won't get their say over the legislation and policies as they will already been ratified by the coalition?

That could work quite well for the successful major party. A lot of promises were made during the campaign, some massively expensive. Not all can be progressed, obviously, so a chance to drop the policies they didn't really want anyway. Blame NZ First.

[minimoke]

The irony is that when the tables are turned...
Don't New Zealanders deserve to know what is being negotiated away by the main parties...?
Not necessarily. Put the coalition agreement aside for a moment. If I vote Labour and National gets in I don't get a further say on policy National puts forward. And even then National will go on and do stuff that wasn't even in a policy. eg putting up GST. Labour has done the same thing but its so long since they were on government I cant think offhand of an example.

We will get what we get. We all went into the elections knowing there would be a coalition and that there would be a very good chance NZ First would be the deal maker. Really, the only surprise is that Labour isnt in a stronger position.

But dont despair - we still have the usual law making process where most policies get tested through public consultation and select committees. Politicians always have an eye on the next election and they tend to err on the side of caution.

Its been 21 years now - I would have thought we would have grown up a bit and realised that negotiations, no matter what they are tend to be confidential. No side wants to show their hand.

[blackcap]

Bill back in favour now. 66% chance for Bill, 34% for Jacinda.

www.betfair.com

[Joshuatree]

Bill using his knees as well as his back:t_up:

[elZorro]

Bill back in favour now. 66% chance for Bill, 34% for Jacinda.

www.betfair.com (http://www.betfair.com)

Jacinda gave another couple of winks this morning on TV1. Surely that should have increased Labour's odds of winning?

[minimoke]

Jacinda gave another couple of winks this morning on TV1. Surely that should have increased Labour's odds of winning?
We should know by now she wasn't winking. She has a tic.

And having a tic is not far removed from having Tourettes.

And tics main trigger is stress along with anxiety, fear and panic

[blackcap]

Jacinda gave another couple of winks this morning on TV1. Surely that should have increased Labour's odds of winning?

Haha I missed that. By the way, did you get any of the generous 10's and 12's I was offering you on Labour the Monday after the election? Just curious.

[westerly]

Not necessarily. Put the coalition agreement aside for a moment. If I vote Labour and National gets in I don't get a further say on policy National puts forward. And even then National will go on and do stuff that wasn't even in a policy. eg putting up GST. Labour has done the same thing but its so long since they were on government I cant think offhand of an example.

We will get what we get. We all went into the elections knowing there would be a coalition and that there would be a very good chance NZ First would be the deal maker. Really, the only surprise is that Labour isnt in a stronger position.

But dont despair - we still have the usual law making process where most policies get tested through public consultation and select committees. Politicians always have an eye on the next election and they tend to err on the side of caution.

Its been 21 years now - I would have thought we would have grown up a bit and realised that negotiations, no matter what they are tend to be confidential. No side wants to show their hand.

An excellent post.

westerly

[elZorro]

Haha I missed that. By the way, did you get any of the generous 10's and 12's I was offering you on Labour the Monday after the election? Just curious.

No I didn't, I haven't used the site and was a bit too busy to figure it out this time. The bidding traffic for our elections doesn't look very big.

I think the odds should be 50:50 at this stage. The board is obviously in two minds anyway.

Here's a link to all the news on today's meeting.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97944031/live-waiting-for-winston-peters

So the board members have 95-99% reached a consensus on policies they want, now the politicians are going to speak to Labour and National to see who matches up, I guess. The board members are going home, but will be available by Skype and other methods when it comes to further decisions.

Winston is meeting one-on-one with Jacinda Ardern later this evening.

(And with Bill English).

The meetings are both completed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11934041

[Baa_Baa]

Winston looks absolutely buggered in that Herald interview, I haven't seen him look so tired, almost jumbling his words. Must be close to a final agreement or he might run out of puff(ery).

[Joshuatree]

While we are waiting.lots of ums and aaah and careful thought before each sentence.

Listen: Bill English's police tape (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97962326/listen-bill-englishs-police-statement-on-todd-barclay)

[fungus pudding]

Winston looks absolutely buggered in that Herald interview, I haven't seen him look so tired, almost jumbling his words. Must be close to a final agreement or he might run out of puff(ery).

It's all too ridiculous for words. MMP needs a fair bit of fine tuning. If the 3 parties were 25% to 35% each - then they could battle out a coaltion which would be acceptable to most of us. But a party with 7% holding the power to punch a million miles above its weight is a worry. Whatever he decides will leave a lot of dissatisfaction. I'd like to see us revisit the supplementary option at some stage - and while I'm at it I think Peter Shirtcliffe deserves a knighthood.

[blackcap]

No I didn't, I haven't used the site and was a bit too busy to figure it out this time. The bidding traffic for our elections doesn't look very big.

I think the odds should be 50:50 at this stage. The board is obviously in two minds anyway.

Here's a link to all the news on today's meeting.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97944031/live-waiting-for-winston-peters

So the board members have 95-99% reached a consensus on policies they want, now the politicians are going to speak to Labour and National to see who matches up, I guess. The board members are going home, but will be available by Skype and other methods when it comes to further decisions.

Winston is meeting one-on-one with Jacinda Ardern later this evening.

(And with Bill English).

The meetings are both completed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11934041

Ok fair enough, there is always next time. I will keep you informed of any juicy odds on the Labour party if and when they come up :) I am very conflicted now as a Labour win is a good financial windfall :) ah well can't win em all.

Hopefully Winston announces something soon, he may not last the distance otherwise.

[fungus pudding]

Ok fair enough, there is always next time. I will keep you informed of any juicy odds on the Labour party if and when they come up :) I am very conflicted now as a Labour win is a good financial windfall :) ah well can't win em all.

Hopefully Winston announces something soon, he may not last the distance otherwise.

That'd be a shame.

[elZorro]

The most recent update I could find on the talks.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/97983046/coalition-talks-gather-pace-with-secret-meetings

[minimoke]

It's all too ridiculous for words. MMP needs a fair bit of fine tuning. Drop threshold to 1%. That way if you get one percent you get a seat. That then gives the big winners more options to go to during coalition talks. For example say a true "green / environmental party" got a seat then that party could be wooed. This would ensure more "right" "left" or "centre" parties had an opportunity to be in government.

Other change would be to allow the party that won the greatest proportion of Party votes first option to form a government. So the vote leader gets first dibs on the smaller parties to see if a coalition can be formed. If not Second largest party gets a shot.

Third change would be that Special votes have to be processed by polling day so they go into the count on that day. If you cant get your vote in in time tough.

Though in the end none of its a big deal. Every one has continued to get paid, the wheels of commerce continue to turn. The markets dont mind the delays. The NZX50 has gone from approx 7770 to 8120 which is a bloody shame as I was banking on it tanking a bit over this period.

[craic]

To my mind this is a lose, lose situation. The party that goes with Peters will be totally compromised and they will need several elections to recover.I would love to see National walk away from the deal right now and simply declare that an agreement to govern with NZ First is not in the national interest. Seven per cent of the voters and a group of faceless unknowns is not what the great majority of voters sought as a government of New Zealand. But my gut feeling is that Labour will be the ones to make the mistake of stepping into this quagmire.

[fungus pudding]

To my mind this is a lose, lose situation. The party that goes with Peters will be totally compromised and they will need several elections to recover.I would love to see National walk away from the deal right now and simply declare that an agreement to govern with NZ First is not in the national interest. Seven per cent of the voters and a group of faceless unknowns is not what the great majority of voters sought as a government of New Zealand. But my gut feeling is that Labour will be the ones to make the mistake of stepping into this quagmire.

We'll soon know - just a matter of negotiating Winston's knighthood then waiting till after the long weekend and 5 o'clock Tuesday he'll tell us.

[BlackPeter]

We'll soon know - just a matter of negotiating Winston's knighthood then waiting till after the long weekend and 5 o'clock Tuesday he'll tell us.

Unlikely they will tell us next week already about the knighthood. This will come as a surprise come either Queen's Birthday or New Year - who knows?

[fungus pudding]

Unlikely they will tell us next week already about the knighthood. This will come as a surprise come either Queen's Birthday or New Year - who knows?

For sure, but he'll have extracted the promise.

[Joshuatree]

Brian Rudman: Nick Smith's laxative fails on blockage (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11933914)

Just another reason for Bill to say how far and Winston walking next door to Jacinda and saying lets do this.

[Bjauck]

Winston's board meeting predicted to go on for several hours yet. Something tells me that one or two of the Winstons don't agree with the head Winston, cos the head Winston has known since before the election. Maybe they will park themselves on the cross-benches. In three years time maybe the "show" election could be abandoned in favour of a dinner party for the NZ First Board members who will decide who will be in the Cabinet for the next three years?

[elZorro]

We'll know tomorrow afternoon most likely. Looks promising for Labour.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/live-updates-nz-first-nearing-a-decision.html

What Winston really thinks of National. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926450)

[minimoke]

We'll know tomorrow afternoon most likely. Looks promising for Labour.

I've got my fingers crossed. If nothing else these threads will be very entertaining in the future.

[fungus pudding]

We'll know tomorrow afternoon most likely. Looks promising for Labour.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/live-updates-nz-first-nearing-a-decision.html

What Winston really thinks of National. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926450)
Yep. Even Prosser thinks so and he's got an amazing track record for getting it right.

[elZorro]

Yep. Even Prosser thinks so and he's got an amazing track record for getting it right.

Would Winston want to side with National when they'd obviously only be there for a term at the most? What would happen to NZ First after that?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97963005/if-peters-wants-a-legacy-then-the-playing-field-is-tilting-to-the-left

[minimoke]

Would Winston want to side with National when they'd obviously only be there for a term at the most? What would happen to NZ First after that?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97963005/if-peters-wants-a-legacy-then-the-playing-field-is-tilting-to-the-left
Youre thinking NZ First will last a whole term in the next coalition? I'm giving it 18 months

[GTM 3442]

Surely in the 21st century there's a pill for electile dysfunction?

[blackcap]

Surely in the 21st century there's a pill for electile dysfunction?

OK some really serious money is coming on Jacinda to be the next PM. It is now Bill 33% and Jacinda 66% for thousands of $'s.

Someone know something?

[Joshuatree]

What Winston really thinks of National. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926450) "Trying to con the public" agree with you there Winston, spot on:t_up:

Winston is older and wiser now and wants to leave a legacy so I'm seeing a stable and successful partnership for 3 years; too many folks here stuck in the past.

[minimoke]

What Winston really thinks of National. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926450) "Trying to con the public" agree with you there Winston, spot on:t_up:

Winston is older and wiser now and wants to leave a legacy so I'm seeing a stable and successful partnership for 3 years; too many folks here stuck in the past.
If he wants "stable" that would rule the Greens out and "successful" would rule out Labour.

Wheras National were successful in leading the country with stable government (How many leadership battles were there?) for 9 years and were successful in getting the most votes in 2017

[elZorro]

If he wants "stable" that would rule the Greens out and "successful" would rule out Labour.

Wheras National were successful in leading the country with stable government (How many leadership battles were there?) for 9 years and were successful in getting the most votes in 2017

Once a coalition sweeps into power (every nine years is the pattern) it's quite hard to get them out again before it's due, they hold most of the cards. National survived with a figurehead PM, he was not a statesman. They held onto many of Labour's policies and had to appear centrist, while trying hard to get in some neoliberal activities like selling off crown assets and keeping ACT alive, all the time using dirty politics to split the "Not National" vote.

The lefties have figured all that out, so this time they have to make a three-way coalition work. We're all adults aren't we?


Latest on what's happening today. (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/winston-peters-decision-national-labour-still-in-the-dark.html)

[minimoke]

The lefties have figured all that out, so this time they have to make a three-way coalition work. We're all adults aren't we?
. (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/winston-peters-decision-national-labour-still-in-the-dark.html)
How adult are the greens if it takes 170 people to make a decision?

[craic]

As a National voter, mostly, I fervently hope that Peters goes with Labour. The greens will sink into the ground and the mess that will follow will guarantee another nine years of National starting in less than two years. From the look of Peters recently on tv he will need a lot of vitamins and minerals to survive.

[fungus pudding]

As a National voter, mostly, I fervently hope that Peters goes with Labour. The greens will sink into the ground and the mess that will follow will guarantee another nine years of National starting in less than two years. From the look of Peters recently on tv he will need a lot of vitamins and minerals to survive.

He's going with Labour alright. If you interpret his cryptic ramblings as I do, he actually said as much twice last week.

[Minerbarejet]

Surely in the 21st century there's a pill for electile dysfunction?
Nothing springs to mind.

[Joshuatree]

I hope he does too craic .Doomed to repeat ? I don't think so, he is much smarter than that and i believe he wants to leave a legacy. The Greens will have a chance to make a difference environmentally and they will :t_up:. and the timing has never been better. Unfortunately i also believe bill going on his disgusting win at any cost politicking will offer winston Carte Blanche; bill has shown us what cloth he is cut from.

[minimoke]

The Greens will have a chance to make a difference environmentally and they will :t_up:.We already kown there is absolute zero chance of them making any difference to climate change. And this is the Green Party that Winston refuses to talk to? My money is on them self-destructing.

[BlackPeter]

He's going with Labour alright. If you interpret his cryptic ramblings as I do, he actually said as much twice last week.

True, but remember Winston's "secret" code - he normally says the opposite of what he means ... a bit like Trump.

[fungus pudding]

Surely in the 21st century there's a pill for electile dysfunction?

Excellent point. If there is such a thing Winnie needs a bucketload.

[Joshuatree]

Winston sure is good at screwing out the best deal he can get and i think bill is the man who will give him the most.

[minimoke]

Gotta say, while I'm a supporter of MMP I do think it more appropriate that the leader of a coalition government (and Prime Minister) should be the one who makes the announcement on the government.


It is farcical that a Leader of a minor party gets to do this. (excepting of course if the announcement isn't about being in government)

[BlackPeter]

Gotta say, while I'm a supporter of MMP I do think it more appropriate that the leader of a coalition government (and Prime Minister) should be the one who makes the announcement on the government.


It is farcical that a Leader of a minor party gets to do this. (excepting of course if the announcement isn't about being in government)

Absolutely. However - did being farcical ever stop Winnie?

[fungus pudding]

Gotta say, while I'm a supporter of MMP I do think it more appropriate that the leader of a coalition government (and Prime Minister) should be the one who makes the announcement on the government.


It is farcical that a Leader of a minor party gets to do this. (excepting of course if the announcement isn't about being in government)

It is quite ridiculous, but it's Winston's way. MMP = Mickey Mouse Politics.

[Joshuatree]

Looks like a dutch auction down to the wire.

[peat]

Winnie is just finalising his positions on the currency and stock markets.

[fungus pudding]

Winnie is just finalising his positions on the currency and stock markets.

and betfair.com ????

[iceman]

Some comments on here from the left supporters are that Winston going left will give The Greens a chance to make a difference. I think this is exactly why Winston wants to go with National. Make some serious deals to clean up the rivers and some other environmental issues (that everyone agrees with).Then come next election The Greens have no relevance as the big issue has been dealt with without them. Which is exactly what Winston wants

[iceman]

And media reporting just now that Winston says “I’ve not made a decision yet”. The Board never had a say in it. I hope he goes left

[Minerbarejet]

Excellent point. If there is such a thing Winnie needs a bucketload.Yes, he is making hard work of this. Whomever he goes with will have this same extended farce every time a decision needs to be made.
Bill will have to harden up or nothing will get dunne.

[minimoke]

Yes, he is making hard work of this. Whomever he goes with will have this same extended farce every time a decision needs to be made.
Bill will have to harden up or nothing will get dunne.
If its this hard, how hard is it going to be to get the Greens Caucus and delegates to come to a 75% agreement?

[Rep]

The NZ Herald has a headline notes someone from NZ First has prepared a lectern!
The corpulent opera singer is warming up for an aria... or not.

[fungus pudding]

The NZ Herald has a headline notes someone from NZ First has prepared a lectern!
The corpulent opera singer is warming up for an aria... or not.

He's running a Dutch auction over baubles according to radio news.

[minimoke]

The NZ Herald has a headline notes someone from NZ First has prepared a lectern!
The corpulent opera singer is warming up for an aria... or not.
Am I too cynical to think that he will move to it at 5:59pm?

[winner69]

Am I too cynical to think that he will move to it at 5:59pm?

They say call a a 5.45 press thingie and turn up late at 6.02 so it can’t be edited on the 6 o’clock news

Or something like that

What a laugh all this carry on is

[blackcap]

market is starting to like Labour. Labour being bet at 1.45-1.5 at the moment.

[ratkin]

market is starting to like Labour. Labour being bet at 1.45-1.5 at the moment.

Liquidity next to nothing though. May just be a reaction to the news greens are holding a meeting tonight

[blackcap]

Liquidity next to nothing though. May just be a reaction to the news greens are holding a meeting tonight

maybe, but there was a few thousand to lay Labour at 1.50 and that is all gone.

[ratkin]

maybe, but there was a few thousand to lay Labour at 1.50 and that is all gone.

Gone but only 700 has been matched at 1.50. took bet away.
It a bit risky putting any money up now as we people sitting at home likely be the last to know.

Hopefully nothing before the chase has finished, dont want that taken off

[blackcap]

haha was that you. I layed some 1.55 but had plenty of green.