If National wins ...

[Blue Skies]

I mean I am quite sure other members of Labour would be delighted to have another Muller, or a Curran as leader of National, but I've no idea what your second sentence means


Too convoluted for me.
Maybe you don't realise Curran was a Labour MP?
How could Curran ever possibly be leader of National?

The reference was to both MP's suffering extreme mental distress.

[fungus pudding]

Too convoluted for me.
Maybe you don't realise Curran was a Labour MP?
How could Curran ever possibly be leader of National?

The reference was to both MP's suffering extreme mental distress.

Of course I know who Curran is. And I'm quite sure most of the Labour party would have been delighted to see her in the Nat. party.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Most Labour MP’s suffer mental distress due to a lack of real world experience, incompetence, and multiple years of non-delivery, and most National MP’s suffer mental distress due to our almost uniformly Left Wing media, Judith ‘Kim Jong-un’ Collins, and the ability of Jacinda Adern to pass herself off as an empathetic crisis manager.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Counting the days until David Seymour and ACT pass Collins and National in the polls. The longer the National caucus waits the worse it will be. Hopefully they continue to be paralysed, they really don’t deserve to be the dominant party on the Right.

[Entrep]

1. Would John Key ever come back?
2. If he did, would National win the subsequent election?

[iceman]

1. Would John Key ever come back?
2. If he did, would National win the subsequent election?

No & yes :-)

[fungus pudding]

1. Would John Key ever come back?
2. If he did, would National win the subsequent election?

No and therefore not relevant.

[Panda-NZ-]

$1B for Westpac in profit, with more to come as interest rates increase.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126844100/westpac-announces-1-billion-profit

I'm sure Simon power, former justice and commerce minister is pleased with the set of results.

[Blue Skies]

Does anybody know what National stands for anymore !

National MP & close buddy/supporter of Judith Collins, Harete Hipango showed up to support anti-vax protestors at Whanganui last Wednesday week.
And then, when questioned by the media, she initially lied about it & tried to deny it!

This despite Whanganui having the 3rd lowest vaccination rate of the DHB's.

[dobby41]

Does anybody know what National stands for anymore !

National MP & close buddy/supporter of Judith Collins, Harete Hipango showed up to support anti-vax protestors at Whanganui last Wednesday week.
And then, when questioned by the media, she initially lied about it & tried to deny it!

This despite Whanganui having the 3rd lowest vaccination rate of the DHB's.

I don't think Judith stands for anything - she seems to swing around being anti-everything that may play to her base.

[fungus pudding]

I don't think Judith stands for anything - she seems to swing around being anti-everything that may play to her base.

I wouldn't let that worry you. She'll be gone before the next election.

[Blue Skies]

I wouldn't let that worry you. She'll be gone before the next election.



And the liberal MPs in National refer to the conservative MPs in the caucus as the Taliban!

It’s a circus!

[BlackPeter]

I don't think Judith stands for anything - she seems to swing around being anti-everything that may play to her base.

Maybe like the GoP in the not so United States anymore whose only policy it is to oppose everything. Incredible how many idiots still support them!

Suspect however that the same program won't be enough to win a majority in NZ. Other than in the United States where the votes from small and insignificant states get a huge booster for the elections (which helps the GoP), in NZ every vote is equal ... and while we do have here as well our fair share of naysayers and conspiracy theorists, lucky us it is not the majority!

[Balance]

Does anybody know what National stands for anymore !

National MP & close buddy/supporter of Judith Collins, Harete Hipango showed up to support anti-vax protestors at Whanganui last Wednesday week.
And then, when questioned by the media, she initially lied about it & tried to deny it!

This despite Whanganui having the 3rd lowest vaccination rate of the DHB's.

Really?

Where’s the link to verify your claim?

[Blue Skies]

Really?

Where’s the link to verify your claim?



It was reported by a number of media outlets re Harete Hipango turning up to support the anti-vax protesters at Whanganui.

Newshub, Whanganui Chronicle, Otago Daily Times, Herald, also on ZB.
It was brought up again on ZB by 3 radio journalists this afternoon on the weekly roundup where they said when she was outed supporting the protest by journalists, Hipango tried to deny it saying she thought it was about something else & promptly left!

That didn't wash with anyone as it was blindingly obvious to anyone who was there the protestors waving anti-vaccination placards were anti-vax, anti mandates, anti govt restrictions etc.

Here's just 1 link though I can't give you a link to the on air discussion.


https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/covid-19/covid-19-delta-outbreak-jacinda-ardern-unfazed-by-protesters-and-vows-to-continue-on/

[Logen Ninefingers]

Why are they mucking around? Collins has to go. I see her talking about National MP’s tonight saying “they just need to focus”. She is a joke!! National MP’s need to focus on punting Collins.

[artemis]

Why are they mucking around? Collins has to go. I see her talking about National MP’s tonight saying “they just need to focus”. She is a joke!! National MP’s need to focus on punting Collins.

Lots of people are saying similar, including or especially the MSM. But suggest people do not underestimate Ms Collins. She is smart, experienced and tough and seems to have all or most of the caucus behind her. I would say that has been a key focus, heading off some of the previous very public disunity. Both National and ACT are releasing policy, and putting forward more MPs to speak to the policies. With two years until the next election, that sounds like plans are in place and being quietly implemented.

(BTW, not a National voter.)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lots of people are saying similar, including or especially the MSM. But suggest people do not underestimate Ms Collins. She is smart, experienced and tough and seems to have all or most of the caucus behind her. I would say that has been a key focus, heading off some of the previous very public disunity. Both National and ACT are releasing policy, and putting forward more MPs to speak to the policies. With two years until the next election, that sounds like plans are in place and being quietly implemented.

(BTW, not a National voter.)

I know Collins is experienced and tough (as an old boot) and shouldn’t be underestimated....all of that is a given. I can’t see why anyone who isn’t a hardcore National voter would be talking her up.

[Balance]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300462440/simon-bridges-demoted-by-judith-collins-over-alleged-historical-comments-to-a-female-colleague

Showdown coming up!

[Blue Skies]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300462440/simon-bridges-demoted-by-judith-collins-over-alleged-historical-comments-to-a-female-colleague

Showdown coming up!


Note Judith Collins doesn't say she's only just become aware of the complaint, but instead, only just become 'aware of the seriousness of the complaint for the first time.....'.

And so good to hear 'under my leadership, the National Party will not tolerate harassment and intimidation of any person.'
Wonder what she will do then about list MP Michael Woodhouse when someone tells her about the traumatising & humiliating toilet seat incident!

[winner69]

Whose this Erica punters talking about as leader of Nats

[Blue Skies]

Whose this Erica punters talking about as leader of Nats


Erica Stanford, MP for East Coast Bays (Auckland).
Sounds like a better fit for Labour than National, progressive, liberal on social issues, supported school student protests on climate change going against then leader Simon Bridges & other MP's stance, believes National could work with the Greens. On good terms with people like Chloe Swarbrick & Kiritapu Allen.
Erica a liberal compared to conservatives both Simon Bridges and Chris Luxon.
Sometimes described as lacking warmth, a reserved personality could be a drawback.

[iceman]

Erica Stanford, MP for East Coast Bays (Auckland).
Sounds like a better fit for Labour than National, progressive, liberal on social issues, supported school student protests on climate change going against then leader Simon Bridges & other MP's stance, believes National could work with the Greens. On good terms with people like Chloe Swarbrick & Kiritapu Allen.
Erica a liberal compared to conservatives both Simon Bridges and Chris Luxon.
Sometimes described as lacking warmth, a reserved personality could be a drawback.

Or could be a calculated move to keep her head down and let her work do the talking. She's been hardworking and done a great job on immigration. I have no doubt that she SHOULD be a senior part of the team that SHOULD replace Collins very soon. Collins is toast after this latest stupid move

[winner69]

Would Erica and Chris make a good team even though many say Simon and Erica

Surely Simon is so toxic somebody needs to tell him to piss off for good

[fungus pudding]

Collins has to go - and I wonder sbout the other MP that overheard Bridges 'offensive' remarks. Have these women lived unde a rock all their lives. You could wander into any workplace - any day of the week and hear far more offensive remarks that what Bridges said. It was along the lines of his advice on how to have a daughter as opposed to a son. 'Go shallow' was his advice. Is blue humour toatally dead?

[Blue Skies]

Would Erica and Chris make a good team even though many say Simon and Erica

Surely Simon is so toxic somebody needs to tell him to piss off for good


Just heard Soper on ZB saying in all his years, he's never seen anything so feral in the Nat's.

Both Collins & Bridges are constituent MP's so neither going anywhere after the smoke clears.
Collins likely to receive a vote of no confidence from caucus & lose leadership by end of the day.
Possibility, Mark Mitchell will be new leader.

The 'offensive' comment Bridges made was not directed at Jaquie Dean & was so mild (she would be crazy to turn up with Collins at 10am news brief ) its ridiculous.
Bridges was chatting to 2 other MP's at a function when she walked past & overheard him say he and his wife Natalie were aiming for a girl for their next child, & the idea is to go shallow. A bit crude but hardly that unusual.
For Collins to frame this as harassment & intimidation is beyond belief & that Jaquie Dean has held on to a grievance about this for the last 5 years! What a snowflake.

[iceman]

Would Erica and Chris make a good team even though many say Simon and Erica

Surely Simon is so toxic somebody needs to tell him to piss off for good

I think Chris needs to step up and challenge for the leadership with Erica as his deputy and make sure the front bench includes liberal MPs such as Nicola Willis & Chris Bishop in prominent roles. Give Bridges Foreign Affairs.

[BlackPeter]

Just heard Soper on ZB saying in all his years, he's never seen anything so feral in the Nat's.

Both Collins & Bridges are constituent MP's so neither going anywhere after the smoke clears.
Collins likely to receive a vote of no confidence from caucus & lose leadership by end of the day.
Possibility, Mark Mitchell will be new leader.

The 'offensive' comment Bridges made was not directed at Jaquie Dean & was so mild (she would be crazy to turn up with Collins at 10am news brief ) its ridiculous.
Bridges was chatting to 2 other MP's at a function when she walked past & overheard him say he and his wife Natalie were aiming for a girl for their next child, & the idea is to go shallow. A bit crude but hardly that unusual.
For Collins to frame this as harassment & intimidation is beyond belief & that Jaquie Dean has held on to a grievance about this for the last 5 years! What a snowflake.

Well, it appears Collins clearly has studied and assumed Machiavelli's philosophies including his mean streak. Pity though that she is lacking his intelligence.

I recon being nasty and dumb might not be good enough to stay leader of National.

Pretty sad to watch Labour locking us up for another year and the best thing the Leader of the opposition can do during this time is dismantling her party!

[777]

Mark Mitchell. Really?

[winner69]

‘Gone by lunch’ seems the in thing

Even new Sweden’s PM didn’t last to lunch time

[fungus pudding]

Mark Mitchell. Really?

He's well experienced in the ways of the world and I don't doubt his capability - but not my pick.

[Balance]

He's well experienced in the ways of the world and I don't doubt his capability - but not my pick.

Lacks presence & charisma.

The power brokers behind the scene like Key would have been busy on the phone in the last 15 hours and they will determine who emerges leader this afternoon.

[dobby41]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300462440/simon-bridges-demoted-by-judith-collins-over-alleged-historical-comments-to-a-female-colleague

Showdown coming up!

They work fast - comment made 4 years ago?

[Logen Ninefingers]

They work fast - comment made 4 years ago?


And dealt with back then as well.

'Bulldog' Collins is a sick and malicious, nay evil, person - and should never have been appointed leader! We've had idiotic posts on here about how she is 'tough' and 'experienced' - she is utterly bl**dy toxic and we will see National polling at 5% if she is allowed to stay there destroying the party from within.

Jacinda Ardern, David Seymour....even Winston Peters; they will all be praying that she somehow clings onto the leadership as she is the best thing they've giot going for them at the moment.

[fungus pudding]

And dealt with back then as well.

'Bulldog' Collins is a sick and malicious, nay evil, person - and should never have been appointed leader! We've had idiotic posts on here about how she is 'tough' and 'experienced' - she is utterly bl**dy toxic and we will see National polling at 5% if she is allowed to stay there destroying the party from within.

Jacinda Ardern, David Seymour....even Winston Peters; they will all be praying that she somehow clings onto the leadership as she is the best thing they've giot going for them at the moment.

Surely David Seymour would rather see a new Nat. leader.

[Balance]

Surely David Seymour would rather see a new Nat. leader.

Not at this stage. ACT has been the biggest beneficiary of National’s dismal performances under Simon, Todd & Judith.

[Panda-NZ-]

Not at this stage. ACT has been the biggest beneficiary of National’s dismal performances under Simon, Todd & Judith.

Please put in chris bishop this time.. ^^

[Blue Skies]

Mark Mitchell. Really?


Def not my pick either.

Don't think most NZ'ers would be too happy with someone who founded a private for profit Military & Security business to make millions out of the highly lucrative Iraq war.
Making money out of war is something which most NZ'ers would find abhorrent.

Private for profit Military & Security contractors have increasingly become part of the murky world of modern wars, absolving nations from accountability to their citizens for violations of human rights.

[Getty]

Looks to me like Crusher has crushed her own throat...

[fungus pudding]

Not at this stage. ACT has been the biggest beneficiary of National’s dismal performances under Simon, Todd & Judith.

Act will never gain a seat unless National can get their own vote high enough to total 50% with Act.

[Panda-NZ-]

NZ needs Chris bishop (tm).

Make it happen National.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Judith Collins is another Jamie-Lee Ross; a person who has utterly lost the plot and has now gone rogue and become a wrecker (or 'crusher') of her own party.

[Balance]

Judith Collins is another Jamie-Lee Ross; a person who has utterly lost the plot and has now gone rogue and become a wrecker (or 'crusher') of her own party.

If she loses the leadership, she could stay around like that loser Muldoon - a lingering bad smell, that's the danger for National.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The 10 am press conference has been pushed back as the 'crisis caucus meeting' continues. Oh to be a fly on the wall. If Jacqui Dean has been stewing and fretting over a crude comment for 5 years then she had better stuff her ears full of cotton wool and then put on some ear muffs as added protection, as the language will be blue, sailors will be blushing, and the temperature will exceed boiling point.

[Balance]

Judith is gone burger.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-leadership-claire-trevett-judith-collins-should-be-gone-by-lunchtime-but-has-she-brought-the-whole-party-down-with-her/NLCJ4RQXI32TEOACPMFXFKSJAY/

Excerpts :

"Neutralising Bridges may well be enough for Collins personally. But her own MPs and the party itself will not forgive her for the chaos she has thrown the party into. Rather than burning down a house to save the village, Collins seems to have tried to burn down the village to save the house."

"She is expected to be gone by lunchtime and deserves to be. The scenes that played out as National MPs headed into today's caucus meeting were as visceral as politics gets. MPs were furious that once again they were in disarray – and this time Collins was being blamed for it, for her late-night press release without speaking to the caucus first."

And is Jacqui Dean really to be blamed for bringing up the sex joke this time round or is it but a convenient excuse for Collins to damage Bridges?

"Collins' attempts to thwart her rival's bid for the leadership amount to revisiting an allegation about what seems on the face of it at least a very crude, bad-taste joke which Bridges aimed at the wrong audience: Jacqui Dean. Bridges was spoken to at the time by former leader Bill English. He apologised to Dean. Dean subsequently supported Bridges' leadership bid in early 2018, and stuck with Bridges against the Todd Muller challenge. She was one of his most steady supporters."

[Logen Ninefingers]

Judith is gone burger.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-leadership-claire-trevett-judith-collins-should-be-gone-by-lunchtime-but-has-she-brought-the-whole-party-down-with-her/NLCJ4RQXI32TEOACPMFXFKSJAY/

Excerpts :

"Neutralising Bridges may well be enough for Collins personally. But her own MPs and the party itself will not forgive her for the chaos she has thrown the party into. Rather than burning down a house to save the village, Collins seems to have tried to burn down the village to save the house."

"She is expected to be gone by lunchtime and deserves to be. The scenes that played out as National MPs headed into today's caucus meeting were as visceral as politics gets. MPs were furious that once again they were in disarray – and this time Collins was being blamed for it, for her late-night press release without speaking to the caucus first."

And is Jacqui Dean really to be blamed for bringing up the sex joke this time round or is it but a convenient excuse for Collins to damage Bridges?

"Collins' attempts to thwart her rival's bid for the leadership amount to revisiting an allegation about what seems on the face of it at least a very crude, bad-taste joke which Bridges aimed at the wrong audience: Jacqui Dean. Bridges was spoken to at the time by former leader Bill English. He apologised to Dean. Dean subsequently supported Bridges' leadership bid in early 2018, and stuck with Bridges against the Todd Muller challenge. She was one of his most steady supporters."

And is Jacqui Dean really to be blamed for bringing up the sex joke this time round or is it but a convenient excuse for Collins to damage Bridges?

I think we know the answer to that. It was dealt with back when Bill English was leader! Collins has exhumed it as the best available piece of dirt that she can damage Soimon with. She is like a mortally wounded Moby Dick, trying to inflict maximum carnage in her death agonies.

[Logen Ninefingers]

two minutes ago....
National MPs are just heading back into the meeting now after a "short water and toilet break". The meeting was originally scheduled to wrap up an hour ago.

[Entrep]

They really need to livestream it

[Logen Ninefingers]

They really need to livestream it

Imagine someone secretly videos it and releases it. Would be fascinating.

[Blue Skies]

Imagine someone secretly videos it and releases it. Would be fascinating.



The longer this crisis meeting goes on, the more bruising this is & the more damage being done.
Like a heavy weight match, I think some of us thought Bridges would deliver the knock out blow in the early rounds & it would all be over, but like a couple of wounded boxers they're still going at it 3 hours later.
Who's going to stagger out to front the podium, claiming the party is unified behind them?

[Joshuatree]

New leader Luxon prob

[Getty]

Judy's out, Luxon in now

In this PC world of diversity, which female will be deputy?

[Raz]

Luxon is not now, they may think he is, imho however he is not relatable to the middle they need to win regardless of his ability.

[Panda-NZ-]

Who's going to stagger out to front the podium, claiming the party is unified behind them?

The Judith faction will demand repeated offerings from the chosen one.

Otherwise the queen of mean will cause trouble.

[Getty]

Ring ring.

Good afternoon, David Seymour speaking.

David, its the National party here, hey, we're in a spot of bother, Jude has fallen on her sword, and a few others are dropping their bundle, could you help out?

What, you mean they are filming another series of Dancing with the stars?

Er, not quite, but what say you dust off your Cv, and throw your hat into the ring?

I'll see what I can do...

[iceman]

Collins has confirmed on Twitter she's no longer the Leader. Mitchell & Luxon the frontrunners !!

[Blue Skies]

Luxon with Nicola Willis as deputy or Mark Mitchell, we know who John Key will be backing, foregone conclusion.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Judith 'Dirty' Collins is gone! :)

Former National Party speaker and senior minister David Carter says it is "wonderful news" Judith Collins has gone.

David Carter pushed to become party president at the last annual conference but was not successful. He says it is "wonderful news" Collins is no longer leader - and National can win the next election if they get in behind a new leader.

"Judith sounds like she's gone. That's wonderful news for me. I wouldn't trust her after the way I was let down at annual conference," Carter said.

"She's attempted to rule by fear, and that doesn't work. Leadership is about gaining respect and admiration, you don't do it like that."

[Panda-NZ-]

Judith 'Dirty' Collins is gone! :)


Oh, she'll still be there. while making it known.

[Logen Ninefingers]

6 minutes ago
Breaking: Here is a statement from Jacqui Dean, who made the allegation that started this all. She confirms the statement was not about her and Bridges apologised at the time.

"About five years ago, Simon Bridges made remarks that upset me at the time. They were not about me, but they were inappropriate and not something I wanted to hear, National MP for Waitaki Jacqui Dean says.

“At the time there was an apology, but subsequently it has continued to play on my mind and with the recent reviews that have occurred in Parliament the feelings have been brought back up.

“What matters to me is that all of us have a clear understanding of what behaviour we should expect in a modern workplace environment.

“Simon and I have spoken a number of times over the past few hours and he has reiterated his apology.

“As I’m sure can be appreciated, the publicity around this has been upsetting and I ask that my privacy is respected on this.”

[Entrep]

6 minutes ago
Breaking: Here is a statement from Jacqui Dean, who made the allegation that started this all. She confirms the statement was not about her and Bridges apologised at the time.

"About five years ago, Simon Bridges made remarks that upset me at the time. They were not about me, but they were inappropriate and not something I wanted to hear, National MP for Waitaki Jacqui Dean says.

“At the time there was an apology, but subsequently it has continued to play on my mind and with the recent reviews that have occurred in Parliament the feelings have been brought back up.

“What matters to me is that all of us have a clear understanding of what behaviour we should expect in a modern workplace environment.

“Simon and I have spoken a number of times over the past few hours and he has reiterated his apology.

“As I’m sure can be appreciated, the publicity around this has been upsetting and I ask that my privacy is respected on this.”

He was talking about how he had 2 boys and apparently some way to achieve a girl. How deluded was Collins to think this plan would work!

[Entrep]

Ring ring.

Good afternoon, David Seymour speaking.

David, its the National party here, hey, we're in a spot of bother, Jude has fallen on her sword, and a few others are dropping their bundle, could you help out?

What, you mean they are filming another series of Dancing with the stars?

Er, not quite, but what say you dust off your Cv, and throw your hat into the ring?

I'll see what I can do...

We can only hope...

[artemis]

6 minutes ago
Breaking: Here is a statement from Jacqui Dean, who made the allegation that started this all. She confirms the statement was not about her and Bridges apologised at the time.

"About five years ago, Simon Bridges made remarks that upset me at the time. They were not about me, but they were inappropriate and not something I wanted to hear, National MP for Waitaki Jacqui Dean says.

“At the time there was an apology, but subsequently it has continued to play on my mind and with the recent reviews that have occurred in Parliament the feelings have been brought back up.

“What matters to me is that all of us have a clear understanding of what behaviour we should expect in a modern workplace environment.

“Simon and I have spoken a number of times over the past few hours and he has reiterated his apology.

“As I’m sure can be appreciated, the publicity around this has been upsetting and I ask that my privacy is respected on this.”

Ms Dean sounds way too fragile to be an MP.

[fungus pudding]

He was talking about how he had 2 boys and apparently some way to achieve a girl. How deluded was Collins to think this plan would work!

And I thought copulating in the back seat was the way. Thanks for the advice Simon.

[Panda-NZ-]

Ms Dean sounds way too fragile to be an MP.

Plus who would make those sort of comments to her, let alone judith.

[fungus pudding]

Ms Dean sounds way too fragile to be an MP.

I quite agree. Representing an electorate is no job for someone so delicate as to take offence at a comment that was admittedly a bit crude in a minor way; but I'm sure most of us hear worse on a fairly regular basis.

[dobby41]

I quite agree. Representing an electorate is no job for someone so delicate as to take offence at a comment that was admittedly a bit crude in a minor way; but I'm sure most of us hear worse on a fairly regular basis.

It wasn't directed at her, she was passing and heard it.
And then bring it up 5 years later - WTF!

[BlackPeter]

It wasn't directed at her, she was passing and heard it.
And then bring it up 5 years later - WTF!

Actually - it was a quite effective method to get rid of Judith Collins ...

Judith took the bait and - hey - all good!

Clearly most of us (well, at least me) overestimated Judith's intelligence. While I didn't like her, I never would have thought that she is that dumb to bite.

[Getty]

And I thought copulating in the back seat was the way. Thanks for the advice Simon.

Did Simon show a lack of breeding?...

[Baa_Baa]

Clearly most of us (well, at least me) overestimated Judith's intelligence. While I didn't like her, I never would have thought that she is that dumb to bite.

Perhaps she planned it, like she's had enough of being told she's useless and going to be rolled sooner or later and decided she'd bring it on herself now citing some lame complaint from 2017 knowing full well it would lead to her being ousted.

[percy]

Bring back Bill....

[Logen Ninefingers]

Firstly, as far as offensive comments go I would have thought his comments about Maureen Pugh would have been more offensive to most people, not least Maureen Pugh.

Secondly, I'm suprised we didn't hear Soimons copulation comments ages ago via one of Jamie-Lee's secret recordings. Clearly JRL must have concluded they were innocuous.

Thirdly, maybe Jacqui saw this as her best chance of making headlines, as flying under the radar is her default setting. If she likes to get offended at the drop of a hat then she may consider gravitating towards the political Left as they are past masters at it.

[Getty]

Bring back Bill....

Big Gerry would like to throw some weight around, but alas, the safe pair of hands is seen as yesterdays man.

[percy]

Big Gerry would like to throw some weight around, but alas, the safe pair of hands is seen as yesterdays man.

The good people of Ilam realised how good Big Gerry was,voting him out of one of the safest National seats in NZ.

[Panda-NZ-]

Thirdly, maybe Jacqui saw this as her best chance of making headlines, as flying under the radar is her default setting. If she likes to get offended at the drop of a hat then she may consider gravitating towards the political Left as they are past masters at it.

Act was too left wing for her according to wiki.

She probably wants fonterra to run NZ with her family employed as advisors.

[Getty]

The good people of Ilam realised how good Big Gerry was,voting him out of one of the safest National seats in NZ.

He looked like he was out of Laurel & Hardy, but he was no Ilam Hardy!

[Blue Skies]

People are saying the shambles continues.

After weeks of rumblings and caucus meeting for 3 hours this morning, they are too scared to pick the wrong person as next leader & going to take several days to decide!

Not because they've got such brilliant candidates to choose between, but the opposite, there's no convincing standout leader & caucus is not confident anyone will be up to the task & stuff it up again.

[Getty]

People are saying the shambles continues.

After weeks of rumblings and caucus meeting for 3 hours this morning, they are too scared to pick the wrong person as next leader & going to take several days to decide!

Not because they've got such brilliant candidates to choose between, but the opposite, there's no convincing standout leader & caucus is not confident anyone will be up to the task & stuff it up again.

IMO they, and any political party, should take as long as it takes, for the good of NZ, not just match any media deadline or the expectation of those who want to throw a rock from the sidelines.

Decide a strategy, who believes in the strategy, only choose from those who believe, and if you dont , either shut up, or get out of the way.

[Blue Skies]

IMO they, and any political party, should take as long as it takes, for the good of NZ, not just match any media deadline or the expectation of those who want to throw a rock from the sidelines.

Decide a strategy, who believes in the strategy, only choose from those who believe, and if you dont , either shut up, or get out of the way.



But everyone's known Collins was going to be rolled for several weeks.
It's been discussed in the media very day.
Surely caucus must have had time to formulate & coalesce around her replacement, just unsure of the timing pre or post Christmas.
Now the leaky ship National is looking rudderless, going in circles with no one in charge & the crew are all arguing with each other.

[iceman]

Perhaps she planned it, like she's had enough of being told she's useless and going to be rolled sooner or later and decided she'd bring it on herself now citing some lame complaint from 2017 knowing full well it would lead to her being ousted.

And trying to take Bridges down with her !!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Typical Collins...

Collins, speaking to reporters while rushing to a taxi outside Parliament’s doors on Thursday afternoon, said she felt “very good, actually".
"It's a really hard job, and I've done everything I possibly could, and I just wish everyone well,” she said.

Asked if she regretted issuing a statement about demoting Simon Bridges last night, she said: "Never."

[dobby41]

But everyone's known Collins was going to be rolled for several weeks.
It's been discussed in the media very day.
Surely caucus must have had time to formulate & coalesce around her replacement, just unsure of the timing pre or post Christmas.
Now the leaky ship National is looking rudderless, going in circles with no one in charge & the crew are all arguing with each other.

They may have known but they don't all agree.
Even with their small caucus they can't agree :ohmy:

[iceman]

They may have known but they don't all agree.
Even with their small caucus they can't agree :ohmy:

There's absolutely no rush for them. No problem taking a few days to sound things out and try to come up with a coherent plan

[Getty]

But everyone's known Collins was going to be rolled for several weeks.
It's been discussed in the media very day.
Surely caucus must have had time to formulate & coalesce around her replacement, just unsure of the timing pre or post Christmas.
Now the leaky ship National is looking rudderless, going in circles with no one in charge & the crew are all arguing with each other.

Maybe, but the Collins loyalists, who were only rooting for her, will now have to face new reality.
Better that all options are looked at with open eyes, and an eye on the future.

[Getty]

Now the leaky ship National is looking rudderless,.

That does not show much respect for Shane Reti.

Better to be a rudderless ship for a short time, than a beached whale for a long time.

[fungus pudding]

And trying to take Bridges down with her !!

Jacqui Dean certainly deserves to go down with her.

[iceman]

Jacqui Dean certainly deserves to go down with her.

I agree. Serious lack of judgement

[Panda-NZ-]

Shane Reti to lead nats.

Why even bother turning up to parliament with this depth of talent.

[Balance]

Read the voices of Labour & Green now - how they wished the deeply unpopular and judgement impaired Judith could have lasted until the next election.

[Blue Skies]

That does not show much respect for Shane Reti.

Better to be a rudderless ship for a short time, than a beached whale for a long time.


No disrespect to Shane, he's clearly only there in a caretaker roll now & gone on Tuesday.
Even ex National MP John Carter said this afternoon, it would have been much better if caucus had sorted out the new leader today.
Instead, the dysfunction & divisiveness will only continue.

Never good optics to have an organisation leaderless because they're incapable of deciding who to choose. esp when you're wanting to project you're capable of running the country.

The next several days are going to be filled with speculation & rumour in the media, a lot of it not helpful to the party. e.g., did the board really unanimously condone Judith demoting Bridges last night & if so why? Should Goodfellow go now ? Who is this Jaquie Dean no one had heard of until now? Is Luxon too conservative & out of step with diverse modern NZ, too middle aged, too bald, too white, too 1950's ?
Similarly with Mark Mitchell & how will his private for profit Military & Security Contracting business which made millions off the Iraq war go down with middle NZ?
etc.

[BlackPeter]

Perhaps she planned it, like she's had enough of being told she's useless and going to be rolled sooner or later and decided she'd bring it on herself now citing some lame complaint from 2017 knowing full well it would lead to her being ousted.

Not sure. Wouldn't a politician try to make a good figure when they leave the stage?

I find it hard to think about a way she can spin that into a heroic and brave departure she can tell her grandchildren about as bed time story.

[BlackPeter]

No disrespect to Shane, he's clearly only there in a caretaker roll now & gone on Tuesday.
Even ex National MP John Carter said this afternoon, it would have been much better if caucus had sorted out the new leader today.
Instead, the dysfunction & divisiveness will only continue.

Never good optics to have an organisation leaderless because they're incapable of deciding who to choose. esp when you're wanting to project you're capable of running the country.

The next several days are going to be filled with speculation & rumour in the media, a lot of it not helpful to the party. e.g., did the board really unanimously condone Judith demoting Bridges last night & if so why? Should Goodfellow go now ? Who is this Jaquie Dean no one had heard of until now? Is Luxon too conservative & out of step with diverse modern NZ, too middle aged, too bald, too white, too 1950's ?
Similarly with Mark Mitchell & how will his private for profit Military & Security Contracting business which made millions off the Iraq war go down with middle NZ?
etc.

Good questions ... maybe they even should extend this period.

Seriously - isn't this the process US politicians tend to go through (the primaries) - and look at what amazing leaders come out of this process ...?

Oops - I withdraw and apologize.

[BlackPeter]

I think Chris needs to step up and challenge for the leadership with Erica as his deputy and make sure the front bench includes liberal MPs such as Nicola Willis & Chris Bishop in prominent roles. Give Bridges Foreign Affairs.

I agree, they need to bring the "centre" back to "centre-right".

But hey - this is only, if they want to have a fighting chance to win the next elections. About that I am not so sure anymore :) - I guess they really seem to enjoy to shrink their base and with that the polls.

[Getty]

Read the voices of Labour & Green now - how they wished the deeply unpopular and judgement impaired Judith could have lasted until the next election.

Maybe they had a crush on her...

[Balance]

No wonder she was gone burger.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300463540/national-party-board-confirms-it-did-not-agree-to-sack-simon-bridges-as-judith-collins-claimed-in-press-release

[Balance]

Maybe they had a crush on her...

They loved her! She was secretly working for them, it seems?

A John Key type leader in waiting in Opposition would have seen Clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents down below 30% polling.

[Panda-NZ-]

They loved her! She was secretly working for them, it seems?
A John Key type leader in waiting in Opposition would have seen Clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents down below 30% polling.

Does Luxon do it for you? We know todd muller did.

[Balance]

Does Luxon do it for you? We know todd muller did.

Does Grant Robertson do it for you? :t_up:

Or are you more inclined towards Poto Williams?

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/kerre-mcivor-mornings/audio/poto-williams-associate-housing-minister-responds-to-criticism-over-kainga-oras-eviction-policy/

Don’t be shy - both are right up your tree.

[Getty]

No disrespect to Shane, he's clearly only there in a caretaker roll now & gone on Tuesday.
Even ex National MP John Carter said this afternoon, it would have been much better if caucus had sorted out the new leader today.
Instead, the dysfunction & divisiveness will only continue.

Never good optics to have an organisation leaderless because they're incapable of deciding who to choose. esp when you're wanting to project you're capable of running the country.

The next several days are going to be filled with speculation & rumour in the media, a lot of it not helpful to the party. e.g., did the board really unanimously condone Judith demoting Bridges last night & if so why? Should Goodfellow go now ? Who is this Jaquie Dean no one had heard of until now? Is Luxon too conservative & out of step with diverse modern NZ, too middle aged, too bald, too white, too 1950's ?
Similarly with Mark Mitchell & how will his private for profit Military & Security Contracting business which made millions off the Iraq war go down with middle NZ?
etc.

All good relevant comment, and questions that show you have more than a superficial interest in politics.

However, I take into account that unlike an employee giving 2 weeks notice, or a professional or company board member giving 1 months notice, Judith Collins was only rolled after 9 am this morn, and so those who decide on replacement need to give due consideration to all options, not just who shouts the loudest on the day.

The fact is they have more than 1 option, and more than 1 combination to consider, no ad hoc decision or band aid necessary.

In the eyes of the electorate, focus quickly shifts from how the new leader took the pass, and how long it took to get there, to how they play the ball once they have it.

In my view, succession planning was much easier under first past the post.
Under MMP, in opposition, they may give more consideration to who the main opponent is.
No doubt Don Brash would have an opinion on that.

[Bjauck]

No wonder she was gone burger.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300463540/national-party-board-confirms-it-did-not-agree-to-sack-simon-bridges-as-judith-collins-claimed-in-press-release

At least NZ's Centre-right party knows when its leader has finally jumped the shark!

Boris Johnson has jumped the shark many times and still the UK's Hard Right Party hangs on to him for fear their house of cards will come tumbling down.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/uk/300461485/uk-prime-minister-boris-johnson-praises-peppa-pig-in-business-speech

[Panda-NZ-]

Boris Johnson has jumped the shark many times and still the UK's Hard Right Party hangs on to him for fear their house of cards will come tumbling down.

Former Aussie PM Malcom Turnbull lambasts Morrison .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9SC9ON9gNA

[fungus pudding]

Does Grant Robertson do it for you? :t_up:

Or are you more inclined towards Poto Williams?

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/kerre-mcivor-mornings/audio/poto-williams-associate-housing-minister-responds-to-criticism-over-kainga-oras-eviction-policy/



The fact that Jacinda and her mob have left this woman in her portfolio is hard to believe. She is totally incapble of applying common sense because she doesn't appear to have any. Many will remember her demonstration of stupidity when she suggested removing the presumption of innocence afforded to alleged perpetrators of sexual assault. That was unbelievable.
Her appointment shows the problem within Labour. i.e. a shortage of competent mps.

[Balance]

The fact that Jacinda and her mob have left this woman in her portfolio is hard to believe. She is totally incapble of applying common sense because she doesn't appear to have any. Many will remember her demonstration of stupidity when she suggested removing the presumption of innocence afforded to alleged perpetrators of sexual assault. That was unbelievable.
Her appointment shows the problem within Labour. i.e. a shortage of competent mps.

Then, there's

- Kris Faafoi (hiding these days from scrutiny),

- Kelvin Davis (Maori criminals are misunderstood and must be protected from punishment so it's ok for corrections officers to be assaulted) and

- Megan Woods (Housing disaster and hiding behind the nincompoop Poto-loo Williams over the KO mess).

The Maori cabal in Cindy's government are meanwhile pushing ahead with divisive racist policies to gain power (3 Waters and Health already in the bag).

[BlackPeter]

The fact that Jacinda and her mob have left this woman in her portfolio is hard to believe. She is totally incapble of applying common sense because she doesn't appear to have any. Many will remember her demonstration of stupidity when she suggested removing the presumption of innocence afforded to alleged perpetrators of sexual assault. That was unbelievable.
Her appointment shows the problem within Labour. i.e. a shortage of competent mps.

I fully agree. However - this needs to be balanced with Nationals problem - i.e. a shortage of politicians able to work together in a team for the good of the people.

The people just can't win, no matter whom they choose :scared:.

[fungus pudding]

I fully agree. However - this needs to be balanced with Nationals problem - i.e. a shortage of politicians able to work together in a team for the good of the people.

The people just can't win, no matter whom they choose :scared:.
I don't think National have got that on their own. Put any large group of decision makers together and there'll be a few 'soloists' emerge.

[Blue Skies]

Well who'd have thought!
In this mornings Newshub poll, Shame Reti is absolutely miles ahead as preferred 'who should be the next leader of the National party' on 51%.
Way back in 2nd is Luxon on 31%, followed by Bridges 12% and then Mitchell 7%.

Not scientific but still over 12,000 votes.
Considering in the media Reti often gets dismissed as a potential leader as un-relatable, might shake the race up a bit.
Perhaps some decency is what people want in their leaders after all.

[iceman]

Well who'd have thought!
In this mornings Newshub poll, Shame Reti is absolutely miles ahead as preferred 'who should be the next leader of the National party' on 51%.
Way back in 2nd is Luxon on 31%, followed by Bridges 12% and then Mitchell 7%.

Not scientific but still over 12,000 votes.
Considering in the media Reti often gets dismissed as a potential leader as un-relatable, might shake the race up a bit.
Perhaps some decency is what people want in their leaders after all.

He comes across as a very intelligent and thoroughly decent person. Not sure he has got what it takes to lead though and get the votes needed, but who knows ? At the end of the day the Leader is chosen by caucus and I don't think Reti would have done himself any favours by being involved with Collins in the ridiculous and ill considered attempt to take down Bridges, that so spectacularly backfired.
It really is time for a bold change in the leadership and front bench with strong positions for young liberal leaning MPs, mixed with some of the younger conservative members of the caucus.

[winner69]

Nats need to be brave and try something new and fresh

Andrew Bayley that type of guy - seems to be pretty smart

Climber many mountains in his life

[BlackPeter]

I don't think National have got that on their own. Put any large group of decision makers together and there'll be a few 'soloists' emerge.

True ... but I still hope National gets eventually through its Game of Thrones phase.

It would feel really good to have for a change an opposition doing what they are supposed to do (constructively monitoring and appraising the government and being ready to take over the reign if required) instead of playing internal power games and forgetting on that way the interests of the people who voted for them and who pay for their salaries.

The political discussion yesterday shouldn't have been about Judiths callousness but about some unfit laws Labour pushed through under urgency.

Its bad enough to have a bad government, but a bad government in combination with an inept opposition is sheer terror.

[Logen Ninefingers]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-in-turmoil-as-judith-collins-forced-from-power-simon-bridges-chris-luxon-mark-mitchell-chris-bishop-and-nicola-willis-eye-challenge/USK5JS4BBWPSPIQOTN5LXDWN2A/

National in turmoil as Judith Collins forced from power

26 Nov, 2021 07:50 AM

The MP at the centre of the Simon Bridges crude-comment saga says she's surprised and disappointed Judith Collins used it to demote Bridges - a move that's sparked yet more turmoil within the party and the demise of Collins' leadership.

Jacqui Dean says she raised Bridges' comments from 2017 with Collins several weeks ago in the context of the Francis review into Parliamentary behaviour.

Collins told Newstalk ZB's Mike Hosking today that she "felt between a rock and hard place" when she was told about the comment. She did not believe it had been properly dealt with at the time.

But many commentators believe Collins used the comment as a means to try to prevent Bridges' own aspirations and internal momentum to become party leader again - a move that backfired spectacularly when she was ousted yesterday.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Jacqui Dean raised Bridges comments with Collins several weeks ago, then no doubt after consultation with the toxic large marine mammal she waited for what she thought was the perfect time to dump her dirt.

She needs to retire and get out of parliament, and then maybe we can shut the book on the flithy and malignant 'Dirty Politics' saga that these 2 scumbags have been perpetrating for years.

[fish]

Well who'd have thought!
In this mornings Newshub poll, Shame Reti is absolutely miles ahead as preferred 'who should be the next leader of the National party' on 51%.
Way back in 2nd is Luxon on 31%, followed by Bridges 12% and then Mitchell 7%.

Not scientific but still over 12,000 votes.
Considering in the media Reti often gets dismissed as a potential leader as un-relatable, might shake the race up a bit.
Perhaps some decency is what people want in their leaders after all.

Agree .
I would vote for National if Shane was leader (would never have voted for Judith )

[fungus pudding]

He comes across as a very intelligent and thoroughly decent person. Not sure he has got what it takes to lead though and get the votes needed, but who knows ? At the end of the day the Leader is chosen by caucus and I don't think Reti would have done himself any favours by being involved with Collins in the ridiculous and ill considered attempt to take down Bridges, that so spectacularly backfired.


And that shows a lack of politiical judgement. That rare gift that gives the ability to mind-read the hoi-polloi. Add to that his seeming lack of humour and I don't think he's quite the next P.M. Besides - he's boring. Keep looking National - there is an answer in your ranks.

[Panda-NZ-]

Agree .
I would vote for National if Shane was leader (would never have voted for Judith )

Probably worse than todd muller.

[BlackPeter]

Well who'd have thought!
In this mornings Newshub poll, Shame Reti is absolutely miles ahead as preferred 'who should be the next leader of the National party' on 51%.
Way back in 2nd is Luxon on 31%, followed by Bridges 12% and then Mitchell 7%.

Not scientific but still over 12,000 votes.
Considering in the media Reti often gets dismissed as a potential leader as un-relatable, might shake the race up a bit.
Perhaps some decency is what people want in their leaders after all.

He probably would need a bit more exposure .... but I agree - he feels like a decent man as well as competent in his field. Have not yet seen him trying to herd cats - i.e. don't know whether he would be a good party leader.

But hey - anybody would be an improvement compared to Judith!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Judith came to Dr Reti with a so-called 'serious allegation' that -

a) Had been dealt with internally 5 years ago.

b) She had been sitting on for several weeks i.e. it hadn't just that moment been revealed to her.

It looks like Dr Reti has backed her to deal with it the way she did, and he was going to be one of the 3 people fronting up at the press conference at 10 am - the others being Collins and Dean - to complete the hit job on Bridges.

Therefore IMO Dr Reti is far too weak of an individual to take on the leadership full time. Imagine allowing yourself to be complicit and to provide a veneer of respectability to a nasty political hit-job being pulled by the 'Dirty Politics' crew. Dr Reti should have seen Collins' stunt for exactly what it was and refused to support it.

[Getty]

My guess is that Simon Bridges will be re instated as Leader.

He WANTS the job, in his own words older and wiser now, and knows the territory, was rolled by a clumsy coup, many involved with that are no longer there.
Importantly in MMP, he does not rule out other parties who he could work with.

Who else would you want as your deputy, but a capable non threatening person who knows what teamwork means?
Shane Reti.

[dobby41]

He probably would need a bit more exposure .... but I agree - he feels like a decent man as well as competent in his field. Have not yet seen him trying to herd cats - i.e. don't know whether he would be a good party leader.


Would he have what it takes though?
David Shearer was a very decent man, good at what he did, well respected but didn't have what it took to be the leader.

[Panda-NZ-]

Luxon with matt doocey as deputy.

Wouldn't that make for a good photo.

[BlackPeter]

Would he have what it takes though?
David Shearer was a very decent man, good at what he did, well respected but didn't have what it took to be the leader.

Good question .... I don't know. But yes, your comparison with David Shearer might be quite appropriate.

[BlackPeter]

My guess is that Simon Bridges will be re instated as Leader.

He WANTS the job, in his own words older and wiser now, and knows the territory, was rolled by a clumsy coup, many involved with that are no longer there.
Importantly in MMP, he does not rule out other parties who he could work with.

Who else would you want as your deputy, but a capable non threatening person who knows what teamwork means?
Shane Reti.

No doubt Simon Bridges wants the job. However, the more important question is - do the NZ people want him as PM? I do have my doubts on that.

Just depends on whether National wants to stick for some more terms in opposition or whether they are ready to take on the government ...

[fungus pudding]

Luxon with matt doocey as deputy.

Wouldn't that make for a good photo.

Good point.

13249


13250


13251

[Logen Ninefingers]

My guess is that Simon Bridges will be re instated as Leader.

He WANTS the job, in his own words older and wiser now, and knows the territory, was rolled by a clumsy coup, many involved with that are no longer there.
Importantly in MMP, he does not rule out other parties who he could work with.

Who else would you want as your deputy, but a capable non threatening person who knows what teamwork means?
Shane Reti.

Soimon? The guy with the mangled way of speaking who has been embroiled firstly in the Jamie-Lee Ross saga & now in the Collins hit-job. Neither Ross or Collins would have had anything to work with if foot-in-mouth Bridges hadn't provided them with the raw materials. Bridges is seen as one of a string of failed leaders who have been unpopular with the public & moreover the view of the majority is that they would have seen us with 'open borders' and COVID maruading through the land if they had their way. Rightly or wrongly, the perception of the majority is that Jacinda kept us safe (or as safe as possible) while National would have overseen a debacle.

It is quite dunder-headed of the National cauces and National party supporters to continue to gravitate towards people who the majority either loathe or view as laughing stocks. For rusted-on National supporters the 'Crusher' was seen as 'tough', 'experienced', and 'smart', while everyone else viewed her as a stupid, nasty, vicious buffoon. So now National supporters need to look at Bridges with clear eyes as well, because he has just as many flaws & while it may be a neat redemption story if he gets the leadership back, IMO National will just be lurching from the frying pan to the fire.

[Getty]

Soimon? The guy with the mangled way of speaking who has been embroiled firstly in the Jamie-Lee Ross saga & now in the Collins hit-job. Neither Ross or Collins would have had anything to work with if foot-in-mouth Bridges hadn't provided them with the raw materials. Bridges is seen as one of a string of failed leaders who have been unpopular with the public & moreover the view of the majority is that they would have seen us with 'open borders' and COVID maruading through the land if they had their way. Rightly or wrongly, the perception of the majority is that Jacinda kept us safe (or as safe as possible) while National would have overseen a debacle.

It is quite dunder-headed of the National cauces and National party supporters to continue to gravitate towards people who the majority either loathe or view as laughing stocks. For rusted-on National supporters the 'Crusher' was seen as 'tough', 'experienced', and 'smart', while everyone else viewed her as a stupid, nasty, vicious buffoon. So now National supporters need to look at Bridges with clear eyes as well, because he has just as many flaws & while it may be a neat redemption story if he gets the leadership back, IMO National will just be lurching from the frying pan to the fire.

Your picks please?

[Getty]

Good point.

13249


13250

Doesn't look like they provide much work for hairdressers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Collins said in the press release that the decision had been made with the consent of National’s out-of-Parliament board.

“This evening, with unanimous support of the board of the National Party, Simon Bridges, Member for Tauranga, has been demoted and relieved of his portfolio responsibilities,” Collins said.

But National sources immediately disputed this with Stuff, and Goodfellow painted a very different picture in an email to members on Thursday afternoon.

“Yesterday, an allegation was raised with the Board of Directors regarding the conduct of a National Member of Parliament. As with all sensitive matters such as this, we must take them very seriously when they are raised,” Goodfellow wrote.
“In considering the matter, the Board unanimously supported a first step in seeking further information from the parties involved, and ensure that the Member of Parliament who was the subject of the allegations was given the opportunity to provide a considered response before any conclusions were drawn.”
“No specific penalties or actions were discussed, agreed, or endorsed by the Board at its meeting yesterday, beyond our support for an investigation in line with due process. It was not and is not a role of the Board to give approval to demote Caucus members or to take similar action.”

[fungus pudding]

Soimon? The guy with the mangled way of speaking who has been embroiled firstly in the Jamie-Lee Ross saga & now in the Collins hit-job. Neither Ross or Collins would have had anything to work with if foot-in-mouth Bridges hadn't provided them with the raw materials. Bridges is seen as one of a string of failed leaders who have been unpopular with the public & moreover the view of the majority is that they would have seen us with 'open borders' and COVID maruading through the land if they had their way. Rightly or wrongly, the perception of the majority is that Jacinda kept us safe (or as safe as possible) while National would have overseen a debacle.

It is quite dunder-headed of the National cauces and National party supporters to continue to gravitate towards people who the majority either loathe or view as laughing stocks. For rusted-on National supporters the 'Crusher' was seen as 'tough', 'experienced', and 'smart', while everyone else viewed her as a stupid, nasty, vicious buffoon. So now National supporters need to look at Bridges with clear eyes as well, because he has just as many flaws & while it may be a neat redemption story if he gets the leadership back, IMO National will just be lurching from the frying pan to the fire.

You assume that people vote for the party they want - I don't. I believe a large number of voters execise their vote to keep out the party they most dislike - or fear. I certainly do and I know I'm far from alone.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Your picks please?

'My picks' are: a person from the caucus who is not a failed former leader who proved to be unpopular with the public and has a penchant for making unfortunate and brainless comments.

Anyone except a person that fits that description.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You assume that people vote for the party they want - I don't. I believe a large number of voters execise their vote to keep out the party they most dislike - or fear. I certainly do and I know I'm far from alone.

So you vote Labour to stop the influence of the Greens on the government?

And how has that worked out for you?

[fungus pudding]

So you vote Labour to stop the influence of the Greens on the government?


Don't be silly. As I said, I use my vote in the most effective way I can in an attempt to keep out the parties I don't want.

[fungus pudding]

I vote for parties that believe in private property rights, individual freedoms, the maintenance of law and order, and the limiting of state intrusion in peoples lives.

I cannot in good conscience vote for parties that believe in ever increasing socialism and state control & the undermining of the current system, as that eventually leads to revolution, anarchy, and the implementation of totalitarian regimes.

Therefore I have no other option than to vote as I do, and I can't see that changing. I equate 'swinging voters' with people who are unsure as to what their views and opinions are and who are constantly vacillating on what they stand for and who they support. 'Swinging' is probably the right name for them, as it is word redolendent with free and easy people of questionable morals who can't decide what they support.

I'm sure there are a ton of NZ'ers of the 'I have always voted Labour,,,,,' variety or 'Our family have always been National supporters' types who didn't even notice Muldoon dragged national into the economic left until Lange/Douglas took it to the economic right. Looking at the electorates at the time the voters followed 'their party' - totally overlooking the policies. IOW the astute voter had to become a swinging voter.
To illustrate my point about voting against the unwanted party:
In 1984 the once popular Muldoon was dumped at the election - not because Nat voters stayed home. They voted Labour to keep Muldoon out.

[Panda-NZ-]

I vote for parties that believe in private property rights, individual freedoms, the maintenance of law and order, and the limiting of state intrusion in peoples lives.

I vote for competent govts.

Well, in comparison to what otherwise could be (only a few choices are offered).

[Blue Skies]

Just a few thoughts.

Party's need to avoid giving voters reasons not to vote for them, just as much as reasons to vote for them, it shrinks the pool of potential supporters.

The glaring problem National face with Luxon is in modern liberal urban NZ, there's a lot of women, younger voters, urban liberal voters, etc,
who won't vote for National if Luxon is leader, because of his anti abortion, anti euthanasia, anti gay marriage, anti- drug reform (marijuana) stances.

For a lot on Kiwi's in 2021, regardless of his capabilities, that's not something they will accept in a prime minister.
Separating his evangelical Christianity beliefs from politics might work as a backbencher, but not as the leader in terms of the public.

Of course the conservatives in caucus (& there's a few of them, strongly religious etc) are not going to see this as a problem.

[fungus pudding]

Just a few thoughts.

Party's need to avoid giving voters reasons not to vote for them, just as much as reasons to vote for them, it shrinks the pool of potential supporters.

The glaring problem National face with Luxon is in modern liberal urban NZ, there's a lot of women, younger voters, urban liberal voters, etc,
who won't vote for National if Luxon is leader, because of his anti abortion, anti euthanasia, anti gay marriage, anti- drug reform (marijuana) stances.


Then again there are plenty who would vote for him because of those things too.

[moka]

"As about exciting as the Taihape Public toilets." Pundits brutal assessment of Nats leader candidates.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html)
Described as "absolutely unproven" and "as about as exciting as the Taihape public toilets", Christopher Luxon still has a way to go to prove he could be a successful National leader, two political commentators say.

[Blue Skies]

Then again there are plenty who would vote for him because of those things too.



Sure there will be people who would vote for him because of those deeply conservative attitudes, Christian conservative parties can get around 5 -8% of the vote,
but National need to get close to 40% of the vote.

[Panda-NZ-]

For a lot on Kiwi's in 2021, regardless of his capabilities, that's not something they will accept in a prime minister.
Separating his evangelical Christianity beliefs from politics might work as a backbencher, but not as the leader in terms of the public.

Of course the conservatives in caucus (& there's a few of them, strongly religious etc) are not going to see this as a problem.

They have enough to start their own church .

[fungus pudding]

I vote for competent govts.


We don't know how competent National will be with so many changes since they last governed.
We do know Labour are totally incompetent.
None of the minor parties are likely to gain enough to be a major influence in the next term.
So your only hope is to take a punt on National.

[Panda-NZ-]

We don't know how competent National will be with so many changes since they last governed.

They can't even run themselves (an easy job).

[Panda-NZ-]

Possibly an incoming National govts new set of priorities:

Introducing new christian sharia laws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvhnRZsv4Q4

[Blue Skies]

"As about exciting as the Taihape Public toilets." Pundits brutal assessment of Nats leader candidates.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html)
Described as "absolutely unproven" and "as about as exciting as the Taihape public toilets", Christopher Luxon still has a way to go to prove he could be a successful National leader, two political commentators say.



Ha, brutal quote from ex ACT staffer & right wing commentator Trish Sherson, on National's candidate selection under Peter Goodfellow & leadership crisis,

'the party really needs to have a good look at itself. The leader really is the cherry on top of this cake, and at the moment there is no icing and no cake."

[justakiwi]

As a "swinging voter" I 100% disagree with your analysis. I know exactly what my views and opinions are, and what I am personally looking for in a government. I vote for whichever party I believe will do the best job for NZ, and for me as an individual, at the time. As yet, National has never received my vote, but that does not mean they never will. When the next election comes around I will look at what all parties have to offer, and will base my decision on that.

I would rather be a responsible swinging voter than someone who blindly votes one party, simply because that's what they have always done (or what their parents always did).




I equate 'swinging voters' with people who are unsure as to what their views and opinions are and who are constantly vacillating on what they stand for and who they support. 'Swinging' is probably the right name for them, as it is word redolendent with free and easy people of questionable morals who can't decide what they support.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

I vote for competent govts.

Well, in comparison to what otherwise could be (only a few choices are offered).

and as logen ninefingers puts it:

"I vote for parties that believe in private property rights, individual freedoms, the maintenance of law and order, and the limiting of state intrusion in peoples lives.

"I cannot in good conscience vote for parties that believe in ever increasing socialism and state control & the undermining of the current system, as that eventually leads to revolution, anarchy, and the implementation of totalitarian regimes."

In my case and IMHO:

I believe in the rule of law, our Courts, and Appeal processes Justice and fairness.

Regardless of who I vote for:

All governments should respect private property rights.

We worked hard for what we have now.

Govt should not claim the Resource Management Act (RMA), or proposed changes to it, allows City Councils, eg Wellington City Council (WCC) and the Greater Wellington District Council (GRDC), to take property as Significant Natural Areas (SNA).

It does not.

And especially, without valid consultation, compensation to legal owners with title (at independent market rates) or a cadastral survey.

Willing buyer and willing seller are fundamental.

There is no explicit legal authority in the existing RMA to take land as SNA.

So the Govt proposes to change the RMA and councils pursue SNA.

Current SNA proposals and the WCC GWRC actions to take land as SNA without payment are inequitable and unfair.

Minorities are clearly being victimised and will suffer loss by the bullying Govt, WCC and GRC actions and tactics.

And the Draft District plan is a non statutory document without any legal authority and the proposed rules have no effect as yet.

Since 2017 the WCC SNA proposals have tormented those affected.

If the RMA and SNA changes are not opposed, then up to 1700 landowners in Wellington lose their property rights.

In our case 51% of our section.

In some cases up to 100%.

Imagine, if it was you affected, how would you react?

As things stand, there are no appeals eg to Courts if these RMA/SNA proposals are carried through.

There is no meaningful discussion with affected stakeholders, no discussion or scaling back of the % of property claimed.

Civil servants and politicians should be able to conclude, in the blink of an eye, that the current RMA/SNA proposals are unjust and reject them, if they have integrity.
How would they react if 51% of their land was taken without compensation on flimsy justifications?

With no appeal to any higher authority.

The RMA/SNA is in the Parliamentary select committee stages prior to a third reading.

An irony is that while the Govt is pushing for 3x3 housing, more buildings; the SNA in perpetuity prevents any use at all by title holders of land designated as SNA. Confusing and contradictory.

As one directly affected landowner puts it "all we can do of SNA becomes law is watch the trees grow".

I understand for most people this is a non issue. 250,000 Wellington ratepayers are not affected. Some of the 1700 who are and whose enjoyment and use of the land is compromised do object and strongly. We appear to have no rights of appeal under the current process.

Darroch Valuers, the WCC Council appointed valuers, assess loss of land value from SNA as up to 22% in the few cases they reviewed.

Significant.

What do you think?

[Getty]

"As about exciting as the Taihape Public toilets." Pundits brutal assessment of Nats leader candidates.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html)
Described as "absolutely unproven" and "as about as exciting as the Taihape public toilets", Christopher Luxon still has a way to go to prove he could be a successful National leader, two political commentators say.

IMO Mr Luxon has come from a background where people down the pyramid show you subservience.

Politics is not like that.

Someone from the other side, who you may regard as vastly intellectually inferior, and less accomplished, can give you a damn good whipping, and there is not much you can do about it.

Not everyone can handle that.

Parliament is not known as the bear pit for no reason.

Simon Bridges has been though that, and appears to want more, hence me picking him over some others.

National cant afford another Todd Muller debacle between now and the next election.

Mr Luxon needs more time to prove he is battle hardened to the political environment.

Maybe step up into next term.

[fungus pudding]

As a "swinging voter" I 100% disagree with your analysis. I know exactly what my views and opinions are, and what I am personally looking for in a government. I vote for whichever party I believe will do the best job for NZ, and for me as an individual, at the time. As yet, National has never received my vote, but that does not mean they never will. When the next election comes around I will look at what all parties have to offer, and will base my decision on that.

I would rather be a responsible swinging voter than someone who blindly votes one party, simply because that's what they have always done (or what their parents always did).

Good on you. That's sensible.

[FTG]

As a "swinging voter" I 100% disagree with your analysis. I know exactly what my views and opinions are, and what I am personally looking for in a government. I vote for whichever party I believe will do the best job for NZ, and for me as an individual, at the time. As yet, National has never received my vote, but that does not mean they never will. When the next election comes around I will look at what all parties have to offer, and will base my decision on that.

I would rather be a responsible swinging voter than someone who blindly votes one party, simply because that's what they have always done (or what their parents always did).


Have you ever voted for the Act Party Justakiwi ?
I may be wrong, but you don't strike me as someone who has or would.

If not, then with respect, you probably shouldn't call yourself a true "swinging voter", as there wouldn't really be a wide arch to your "swing"?

[dobby41]

They can't even run themselves (an easy job).

It's not like there are a lot of them to run. :confused:

[fungus pudding]

Sure there will be people who would vote for him because of those deeply conservative attitudes, Christian conservative parties can get around 5 -8% of the vote,
but National need to get close to 40% of the vote.

They do, but National, just like Labour have got their core voters who just tick the form regardless of policy. ('Cos my parents did'.) Then there are those who follow their local MP - so it's not just the leaders personal beliefs that determine elections.

[Panda-NZ-]

They do, but National, just like Labour have got their core voters who just tick the form regardless of policy. ('Cos my parents did'.) Then there are those who follow their local MP - so it's not just the leaders personal beliefs that determine elections.

Then you have the sheer cult of personality -- key, jacinda, winston.

[moka]

You assume that people vote for the party they want - I don't. I believe a large number of voters execise their vote to keep out the party they most dislike - or fear. I certainly do and I know I'm far from alone.Unfortunately, there are too many men who do vote to keep out the party they dislike the most, and that is a problem, because they have a negative fear-based focus, instead of a positive vision of how they want New Zealand to be. I call it the stale pale male attitude, negative, based on fear, and focused on the past not the future.

Think of how much better New Zealand could be if these people had a positive future-focused vision of how NZ could be. Because we are all are part of NZ society. Many here are running businesses or employed in businesses. How do you contribute to society? The focus on these threads is how useless, incompetent the government is. All most people do is complain about how bad things are and few have a concept of to make NZ better.

[Panda-NZ-]

The focus on these threads is how useless, incompetent the government is. All most people do is complain about how bad things are and few have a concept of to make NZ better.

Some people just want to pay less tax. The end.

[fungus pudding]

Unfortunately, there are too many men who do vote to keep out the party they dislike the most, and that is a problem, because they have a negative fear-based focus, instead of a positive vision of how they want New Zealand to be. I call it the stale pale male attitude, negative, based on fear, and focused on the past not the future.

Think of how much better New Zealand could be if these people had a positive future-focused vision of how NZ could be. Because we are all are part of NZ society. Many here are running businesses or employed in businesses. How do you contribute to society? The focus on these threads is how useless, incompetent the government is. All most people do is complain about how bad things are and few have a concept of to make NZ better.

You're confused. People obviously vote for the way they want NZ to be; wheter they vote against a disliked party of for the party they want. You are talking about the way you want it to be.

[moka]

"As about exciting as the Taihape Public toilets." Pundits brutal assessment of Nats leader candidates.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html
(https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/national-leadership-pundits-brutal-assessments-of-candidates-shock-at-judith-collins-attempt-to-destroy-simon-bridges.html)
Described as "absolutely unproven" and "as about as exciting as the Taihape public toilets", Christopher Luxon still has a way to go to prove he could be a successful National leader, two political commentators say.I didn't read the article properly as it also says
"I'm not familiar with Luxon and not many people are," said Mike Williams, "I Googled him. He does a lot of talking on Facebook. He's had a charisma bypass. He is about as exciting as the Taihape public toilets. I think Simon Bridges will be given another go."

"The conservatives, people like Chris Luxon, Chris Penk, Simeon Brown, are fundamental conservatives. They are really to the right of the party.

"If you can't get that ideology together, you haven't got unity, and what you haven't got is discipline. You need those three things… then you get a leader.
"I can't see a potential leader who can put all that together with a possible exception of Shane Reti."

[moka]

Some people just want to pay less tax. The end.So, you get run-down hospitals and health system that can’t cope with covid, and then they have plenty to complain about. Short-sighted people with short-term goals. No long-term strategic thinking.

[justakiwi]

You don't know me, so why would you presume to know who I would or would not vote for? Do not make assumptions.

ACT is a party I will give serious consideration to this time round.





Have you ever voted for the Act Party Justakiwi ?
I may be wrong, but you don't strike me as someone who has or would.

If not, then with respect, you probably shouldn't call yourself a true "swinging voter", as there wouldn't really be a wide arch to your "swing"?

[Panda-NZ-]

ACT is a party I will give serious consideration to this time round.

A bit contradictory to your previous stance on the importance of vaccines.

[FTG]

You don't know me, so why would you presume to know who I would or would not vote for? Do not make assumptions.

ACT is a party I will give serious consideration to this time round.

Very true, I shouldn't make assumptions. So you have voted for them in the past?

[Panda-NZ-]

Act does Labours ads for them:

https://www.act.org.nz/govt_planning_more_minimum_wage_increases

[777]

Bridges has confirmed he is standing. So very little change to the polls if he succeeds.

[BlackPeter]

Then again there are plenty who would vote for him because of those things too.

Absolutely - but not enough :):

[BlackPeter]

We don't know how competent National will be with so many changes since they last governed.
We do know Labour are totally incompetent.
None of the minor parties are likely to gain enough to be a major influence in the next term.
So your only hope is to take a punt on National.

To be fair ... I am not aware that there is a limit on the measure of incompetence ... and while I agree that Labour is pretty incompetent in doing what they said they wanted to do ... they did so far ok-ish in dealing with the virus. I could imagine still more incompetent governments than the current bunch - ie. I recon we need to see what National comes up with before we try to assess who is the least competent bunch.

[fungus pudding]

To be fair ... I am not aware that there is a limit on the measure of incompetence ... and while I agree that Labour is pretty incompetent in doing what they said they wanted to do ... they did so far ok-ish in dealing with the virus. I could imagine still more incompetent governments than the current bunch - ie. I recon we need to see what National comes up with before we try to assess who is the least competent bunch.

National do not have a Twyford, a Parker, a Williams, a Davis, Jackson and some of the others who are so forgettable I can't remember them! There is no chance they will be as hopeless.

[Blue Skies]

I vote for parties that believe in private property rights, individual freedoms, the maintenance of law and order, and the limiting of state intrusion in peoples lives.

I cannot in good conscience vote for parties that believe in ever increasing socialism and state control & the undermining of the current system, as that eventually leads to revolution, anarchy, and the implementation of totalitarian regimes.

Therefore I have no other option than to vote as I do, and I can't see that changing. I equate 'swinging voters' with people who are unsure as to what their views and opinions are and who are constantly vacillating on what they stand for and who they support. 'Swinging' is probably the right name for them, as it is word redolendent with free and easy people of questionable morals who can't decide what they support.



You sound like a fun sort of a guy! Get invited out a lot?
You'd get on well with Ted Cruz.
Just joking, sounds a bit earnest. :)

[BlackPeter]

I vote for parties that believe in private property rights, individual freedoms, the maintenance of law and order, and the limiting of state intrusion in peoples lives.

I cannot in good conscience vote for parties that believe in ever increasing socialism and state control & the undermining of the current system, as that eventually leads to revolution, anarchy, and the implementation of totalitarian regimes.

Therefore I have no other option than to vote as I do, and I can't see that changing. I equate 'swinging voters' with people who are unsure as to what their views and opinions are and who are constantly vacillating on what they stand for and who they support. 'Swinging' is probably the right name for them, as it is word redolendent with free and easy people of questionable morals who can't decide what they support.

You sound like a very one dimensional person ... is this really what you are?

Most people are multidimensional - and life certainly is.

Sure - most people stand on a certain place in the left - right spectrum, and I assume this is for most voters one of the factors influencing which party they vote for, but at least for me there are as well some other very important criteria to assess. Some examples would be:

How do the parties propose to protect the environment. No point in voting for a party which might support my selfish desire to maximise my capital if this results in a destruction of our planet, is it?

Are the people standing for the party decent, honorable people or do I know already that they are character-less liars? No point in voting for a liar who tells me what I want to hear, isn't it ... even if I like his (or her) story.

Are the people standing for election competent to do what they need to do in order to achieve the goals they promised?

Are the values of the parties compatible with my values (and this is a show stopper - I could not bring myself to ever vote for a party which supported (just an overseas example) e.g. a liar like Trump?

If I could choose I would pick a centre-right government which humanistic principles using a science based approach which really cares about the environment and the planet. It needs to be run by honest and decent people I can respect.

No party in NZ fits this bill ... which means I need to check every time which of the available choices comes closest to my requirements.

If this makes me a swing voter, then so be it ... without us democracy would not work because politicians would not have a need to perform.

While I realise that some voters would vote for any sheep as long as its wool is died in the right colour ... I don't think that this is the best approach to make democracy work.

[BlackPeter]

National do not have a Twyford, a Parker, a Williams, a Davis, Jackson and some of the others who are so forgettable I can't remember them! There is no chance they will be as hopeless.

Well, of the top of my head I can think of many questionable National candidates and staffers (many quite recent) - lets see: Andrew Falloon, Jake Bezzant, Michelle Boag, Judith Collins, Jamie-Lee Ross, Roger McClay - and I am sure that there are plenty more.

Lets face it - Nationals candidate selection is a shambles, and neither character not leadership skills seem to be relevant in the selection as long as Mr Goodfellow likes them for some reason.

While I agree with you that Labours record in picking decent and competent staff is not very impressive - I doubt National is standing in that regard on moral high ground.

Just another pick out of a bad bunch ...

[justakiwi]

I said I will consider them. No party is perfect. None of them. I will make my decision at election time.


A bit contradictory to your previous stance on the importance of vaccines.

[Getty]

Bridges has confirmed he is standing. So very little change to the polls if he succeeds.

"bugger the pollsters" as Jim Bolger famously said.

Which way will the pendulum swing this time?

[Getty]

"bugger the pollsters" as Jim Bolger famously said.

Which way will the pendulum swing this time?

Remember 'Ms 2%' as John Banks used to refer to Helen Clark, going on to become PM?

[Blue Skies]

Well, of the top of my head I can think of many questionable National candidates and staffers (many quite recent) - lets see: Andrew Falloon, Jake Bezzant, Michelle Boag, Judith Collins, Jamie-Lee Ross, Roger McClay - and I am sure that there are plenty more.

Lets face it - Nationals candidate selection is a shambles, and neither character not leadership skills seem to be relevant in the selection as long as Mr Goodfellow likes them for some reason.

While I agree with you that Labours record in picking decent and competent staff is not very impressive - I doubt National is standing in that regard on moral high ground.

Just another pick out of a bad bunch ...


Add Hamish Walker (leaking confidential patient info) & Jiang Yang (best known for training Chinese spies) to that list, plus current MP's Michael Woodhouse (the toilet seat creep) and Melissa Lee ( vindictive bully) & Harete Hipango ( using MP's taxpayer fund to buy big screen TV, & sofas, furniture for her parliamentary office, which instead went to her own home ).

[fungus pudding]

Well, of the top of my head I can think of many questionable National candidates and staffers (many quite recent) - lets see: Andrew Falloon, Jake Bezzant, Michelle Boag, Judith Collins, Jamie-Lee Ross, Roger McClay - and I am sure that there are plenty more.

Lets face it - Nationals candidate selection is a shambles, and neither character not leadership skills seem to be relevant in the selection as long as Mr Goodfellow likes them for some reason.

While I agree with you that Labours record in picking decent and competent staff is not very impressive - I doubt National is standing in that regard on moral high ground.

Just another pick out of a bad bunch ...

The large number of dead-beats at the same time is what distingishes the current Labour lot from all previous parties - Labour or National.

[Getty]

Any way, we are all having a good old chin wag, some are taking the opportunity to gnash their teeth at each other, but where will it go?

The media, as is their job, will report on every murmur that comes out of any National source over the next few days.

But to the general public, so what?

I liken it to the All blacks in training, or Joseph Parker building up over 3months for his next fight.
Few of the public are there.

But come the next test match, or title fight, and suddenly most are there via TV or in person.

Bring on the title match in 2 years time.

[fungus pudding]

Any way, we are all having a good old chin wag, some are taking the opportunity to gnash their teeth at each other, but where will it go?

The media, as is their job, will report on every murmur that comes out of any National source over the next few days.

But to the general public, so what?

I liken it to the All blacks in training, or Joseph Parker building up over 3months for his next fight.
Few of the public are there.

But come the next test match, or title fight, and suddenly most are there via TV or in person.

Bring on the title match in 2 years time.

Yep - there'll be a good few blows and a knock-out or two from both corners of the ring before the final bout. And for the statisticians, the law of averages suggest there could be two members turning their toes up before the next election.

[Getty]

Yep - there'll be a good few blows and a knock-out or two from both corners of the ring before the final bout. And for the statisticians, the law of averages suggest there could be two members turning their toes up before the next election.

Maybe I've got it all wrong, there could be some sin bins along the way!

[fungus pudding]

Maybe I've got it all wrong, there could be some sin bins along the way!

Sin bins are for the naughty - the rule-breakers, and those who argue with the ref. There are none of that sort in parliament.

[Getty]

Sin bins are for the naughty - the rule-breakers, and those who argue with the ref. There are none of that sort in parliament.

Mr Mallard thinks they have their ducks and drakes lined up!

[FTG]

If this makes me a swing voter, then so be it ... without us democracy would not work because politicians would not have a need to perform.




Really? To say "democracy wouldn't work without swing voters" must be another glib, throwaway line. One that perhaps an aspiring populist politician would love to dispense. :cool:
Surely, with just a little bit of rational & objective observational skills, one can observe that a democratic political system can function without the need of swing voters!

But therein your statement highlights the significant challenge that we all face, but you & other swing voters especially.

Whilst the political system we have is heavily orientated towards & revolves around "party politics", we will continue to have an environment of unhealthy compromises. Furthermore and as we know, the NZ voting system is run through MMP. A system which not only survives on, but breeds continual compromise & backroom deals.

Regardless of the label on the packaging (so, it's certainly an issue not unique to National) the multiple issues that "party politics" creates will prevail. A couple of examples include:

- Different factions in a party trying to screw the scrum in their favour, rather than maintaining some sort of "True North", as determined by the party membership. Basically a hijack of the party brand & apparatus. We are certainly seeing some of this at the moment in National. With the two factions in the Waka paddling in quite different directions, the constituents scratch their heads, wondering what principles the party actually steadfastly stands for. Instead a flip-flop policy regime reigns.

- MP's told to vote along "party lines" in the house, even if the MP's constituents (the folk they are actually meant to be representing!) are clearly opposed to the proposed legislation. As we know, the Labour Party is notorious for this arrogant attitude, with party policy being that an MP should "NEVER cross the floor".

- Politicians doing deals with politicians from other parties. For the perceived benefit (read survival) of the party, rather than in the genuine interests of the constituents. "Give us confidence & supply in the House, and we will assist you in doing X (even though our party doesn't really like the idea of X)".

Having lots of swing voters is arguably a symptom of a poorly functioning system. Symptomatic of confused voters that feel they need to compromise, conflicted & compromised politicians, and quite likely a constitutional framework that is lacking substance.

So in the end what do we get?
Packaging that constantly changes, lots of air inside the packet, and product that looks nothing like what the packaging actually promised!

[justakiwi]

Condescending much. I'm not in the least bit "confused." I know exactly what I am looking for in a political party/government. When I find the party that comes closest to meeting my expectations, they will get my vote.

At this point, I do not know which party that will be.


Symptomatic of confused voters that feel they need to compromise, conflicted & compromised politicians, and quite likely a constitutional framework that is lacking substance.

[fungus pudding]

National do not have a Twyford, a Parker, a Williams, a Davis, Jackson and some of the others who are so forgettable I can't remember them! There is no chance they will be as hopeless.


Nearly forgot this one .........13255

[Panda-NZ-]

del ------

[Balance]

Nearly forgot this one .........13255

And Poto (loo) Williams, minister of police & associate housing minister.

Clueless, incompetent and dangerously pro-criminals.

[fungus pudding]

And Poto (loo) Williams, minister of police & associate housing minister.

Clueless, incompetent and dangerously pro-criminals.

True, but she wasn't forgotten or overlooked. She's on the list at post 15413 with Davis, Twyford, Jackson et al.

[Balance]

Luxton to be the new leader?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127107521/only-one-logical-choice-to-set-a-new-party-course

[BlackPeter]

Luxton to be the new leader?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127107521/only-one-logical-choice-to-set-a-new-party-course

Just a bit worried he might turn the leftovers of Crasher Judith into a hard-right religious sect. Maybe he could join forces with Tamaki?

Will his poll results still reach into two digit territory or is National following on the heels of "Advance NZ"? We seem to have every election some religious nutter party, so why not National doing the job this time?

And hey, Judith managed already to cut Nationals polling numbers in half after replacing Bridges, so why shouldn't Chris repeat this trick :)? It seems to be really important for National not to represent the electorate, but to try to force the views of whoever happens to lead them on the country. Worked with Judith like a charm, particularly the praying stunt - didn't it?

Not sure what Sir John thinks now about his party (but didn't he got Luxton into politics?) ... but hey ...

I see golden times rolling on for ACT ...

[Getty]

Worked with Judith like a charm, particularly the praying stunt - didn't it?



There is a lot of preying going on alright...

[777]

Get it right. It is Luxon not Luxton. As in it was Key not Keys.

[Getty]

Get it right. It is Luxon not Luxton. As in it was Key not Keys.

It remains to be seen if his Lucks in.

One or two Bridges to be crossed before he gets there.

[Getty]

Get it right. It is Luxon not Luxton. As in it was Key not Keys.

Some of them may be getting mixed up with Buxton Urinals, but they are just taking the piss...

[iceman]

Just a bit worried he might turn the leftovers of Crasher Judith into a hard-right religious sect. Maybe he could join forces with Tamaki?

Will his poll results still reach into two digit territory or is National following on the heels of "Advance NZ"? We seem to have every election some religious nutter party, so why not National doing the job this time?

And hey, Judith managed already to cut Nationals polling numbers in half after replacing Bridges, so why shouldn't Chris repeat this trick :)? It seems to be really important for National not to represent the electorate, but to try to force the views of whoever happens to lead them on the country. Worked with Judith like a charm, particularly the praying stunt - didn't it?

Not sure what Sir John thinks now about his party (but didn't he got Luxton into politics?) ... but hey ...

I see golden times rolling on for ACT ...

What has Luxon done to make you think he’d turn National into a “hard right religious sect” ?
I think he’s much more likely to run it, if he gets selected, as a soft center-right party like John Key did.
The main thing is that they come out of this unified and start attacking this useless Government on it’s many weak policy areas

[ronaldson]

This thread may be misnamed. It seems to me we are possibly entering territory where the Centre Right can win due to the clear incompetence of Labour, but the largest party within that bloc may be ACT.

However it is, candidate selection for ACT will be a critical concern. It may have been fortunate it was not necessary to go further down the ACT List last time. Remember the rabble that came in to Parliament on Peter Dunne's coat tails a few elections ago now? Peter was a very safe pair of hands, a competent Minister in governments of both hues, and an able Parliamentary Member but the actual UF party had no depth at all and those elected with Peter on that occasion were a conspicuous fail.

If the current ACT MPs stay on task/message, keep a clean slate, and Seymour holds it all together, they may overtake National especially if disunity within that party continues and other "scandals" of whatever nature arise going forward.

[artemis]

.....

If the current ACT MPs stay on task/message, keep a clean slate, and Seymour holds it all together, they may overtake National especially if disunity within that party continues and other "scandals" of whatever nature arise going forward.

ACT MPs are mostly insufficiently experienced to take on big roles in a coalition government. I am certain that they are working hard to understand their shadow portfolios and the wider political environment, but one term is just not enough. Jamie Whyte might be persuaded to take a significant strategy role. And there are other previous ACT leaders who are probably already working behind the scenes.

[BlackPeter]

Get it right. It is Luxon not Luxton. As in it was Key not Keys.

Fair enough ... though, do you recon it pays to memorise the spelling of this name?

I guess the way I see it ... either he stays one of 120 plus more or less meaningless MP's - or he might be the man who continues the job Crusher Judith started under the watching eye of chairman Goodfellow: Crush the National Party ...

Don't know yet what it will be, but for you I will work on this spelling thingie:
Luxon, Luxon, Luxon, Luxon, Luon ... damn!

[Balance]

Slow news day - Key talking to 3 MPs (1 called him) is considered as ‘hitting the phone’!

But read the comments - it is clear that Clueless Cindy’s keyboard warriors are out in force and clearly panicking at the prospect of National unifying under 1 leader as was the case under sketchy. :D


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/john-key-hits-the-phone-for-chris-luxon-in-national-leadership-contest/5DFAMNCPH2SHBY6TG25IIJPCEU/

[fungus pudding]

Fair enough ... though, do you recon it pays to memorise the spelling of this name?

I guess the way I see it ... either he stays one of 120 plus more or less meaningless MP's - or he might be the man who continues the job Crusher Judith started under the watching eye of chairman Goodfellow: Crush the National Party ...

Don't know yet what it will be, but for you I will work on this spelling thingie:
Luxon, Luxon, Luxon, Luxon, Luon ... damn!

That would be time well spent. Thingy, thingy, thingy..... :D

[BlackPeter]

What has Luxon done to make you think he’d turn National into a “hard right religious sect” ?
I think he’s much more likely to run it, if he gets selected, as a soft center-right party like John Key did.
The main thing is that they come out of this unified and start attacking this useless Government on it’s many weak policy areas

I agree with your assessment of the current government, am however not sure National has anything better to offer. Whoever starts there as leader will have a lot of work to work out and communicate what National really stands for.

I agree as well with the priorities you mentioned for National - and yes, the fact that they basically surgically removed their liberal wing makes it difficult for them to fly, doesn't it? I am however not sure I share your hopes that Chris Luxon (her we go ..) will be able to implement all the good points you raised.

I must admit I was during his time at AIR a bit concerned how his religious believes influenced business decisions in an absolutely inappropriate way - and if this is a template for his behaviour in parliament, than he is clearly not a man I would support on the way into government.

Problem is - people who think that only their world view represents the truth ("I am the way and the truth and the life" - Jesus said that, not Luxon) will always find it difficult to work with all groups in society and to represent all walks of life. How will Luxon work together with e.g. muslims, atheists (the largest religious group in NZ) or with the LGBT community? Will his religious believes (remember - "to believe" means to know that you don't want to know the truth" (Nietzsche) stop him to make sensible decisions on drug laws or e.g. anything related to assisted dying?

Being intolerant and closed to other peoples ideas is a problem for all religious fundamentalists (not just Christians) ... and therefore do religious fundamentalist seldom (never?) make good politicians.

But anyway, maybe he grew up since he worked at AIR. I am happy to give him a second chance, but I really would be disappointed if he is the best chance National has left - they clearly did cut too many good people off their wings during the dark times.

[Getty]

Slow news day - Key talking to 3 MPs (1 called him) is considered as ‘hitting the phone’!

But read the comments - it is clear that Clueless Cindy’s keyboard warriors are out in force and clearly panicking at the prospect of National unifying under 1 leader as was the case under sketchy. :D


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/john-key-hits-the-phone-for-chris-luxon-in-national-leadership-contest/5DFAMNCPH2SHBY6TG25IIJPCEU/

Revealing story, if completely factual.

If 'an MP' is representative of Luxons' sentiment, that "he wants the job given to him", then in my view he isn't fighting hard enough.

Mark Mitchell will have withdrawn, in endorsement of Simon, so it looks to me there is only 1 'Bridge over troubled water.'

The diversity faction will probably then want a female as deputy, but if that happens it's a low blow for Dr Shane Reti, who hasn't put a foot wrong.
Taking one for the team?, but hey, this is politics.

Chris Bishop has time on his side.

[Blue Skies]

What has Luxon done to make you think he’d turn National into a “hard right religious sect” ?
I think he’s much more likely to run it, if he gets selected, as a soft center-right party like John Key did.
The main thing is that they come out of this unified and start attacking this useless Government on it’s many weak policy areas


Not saying this will happen, but BP is light heartedly raising a point worthy of discussion since Luxon is a potential leader.

Luxon is an Evangelical Christian, that's fundamentalist with a core tenet being 'faith in action', with an emphasis on the action. i.e. using every opportunity to spread & push the faith & core beliefs on others.
That's not the same as being a regular Christian who aren't out to impose their beliefs on others.
Those beliefs include, anti- euthanasia, anti-abortion, anti-same sex marriage, anti-drug reform.

Whether those personal beliefs would turn off a lot of middle NZ voters or influence political decisions/appointments/promotions/choice of inner circle, remains to be seen.

John Key was openly agnostic.

On the other hand, Labour has a religious base (among others) esp through its Pacifica voters, who Luxon's Christian fundamentalism might well appeal to.

[Getty]

If Jacinda had the casting vote, who would she choose???

[Blue Skies]

If Jacinda had the casting vote, who would she choose???


Shane Reti without a doubt.

He would be my choice too as it happens, he's intelligent, decent, highly respected, could bridge different factions, an authority with Covid & this new variant coming, no ego, & a new look for National which it desperately needs.

[fungus pudding]

If Jacinda had the casting vote, who would she choose???

Simon for sure. She knows he's never polled well as Nat. leader - whereas the others are all a bit of an unknown quantity.

[Balance]

Shane Reti without a doubt.

He would be my choice too as it happens, he's intelligent, decent, highly respected, could bridge different factions, an authority with Covid & this new variant coming, no ego, & a new look for National which it desperately needs.

Definitely not Cynical Cindy’s pick then.

She wants Simon Bridges.

[Baa_Baa]

Definitely not Cynical Cindy’s pick then.

She wants Simon Bridges.

Moot. It's not their choice. Just another boring day in politics, best wait for the new leaders to emerge and then firm up the debate.

[Panda-NZ-]

Not saying this will happen, but BP is light heartedly raising a point worthy of discussion since Luxon is a potential leader.

He spent his maiden speech talking about religion, rather than what he would do to improve NZ (probably next to nothing since it works well for people such as himself).

[Balance]

He spent his maiden speech talking about religion, rather than what he would do to improve NZ (probably next to nothing since it works well for people such as himself).

Unadulterated garbage again from the resident Labour deflector.

https://fb.watch/9xEavZ-sWN/

Luzon spent 2 minutes of his 15.3 mins maiden speech on his faith. So get your facts right before peddling lies here. We are not all fools like the indoctrinated Cindy devotees.

Can feel the anxiety level rising from the clueless nincompoops in COVID Cindy’s government.

[Crypto Crude]

2 minutes is far too long to be speaking about religion...
....
Sounds like a other crackerjack...
:cool:cc

[fungus pudding]

Unadulterated garbage again from the resident Labour deflector.

https://fb.watch/9xEavZ-sWN/

Luzon spent 2 minutes of his 15.3 mins maiden speech on his faith. So get your facts right before peddling lies here. We are not all fools like the indoctrinated Cindy devotees.

from when to when ...........?

[winner69]

We don't really want Luxon leading Nats and maybe becoming PM one day ... have same sentiments

National leadership contender Chris Luxon is the standout candidate - so why am I worried?


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300464679/national-leadership-contender-chris-luxon-is-the-standout-candidate--so-why-am-i-worried


If we look objectively at our performance over the last three decades, we can see a gradual decline in our economic quality of life as successive regimes have prioritised the politically safe over the economically necessary.

[Balance]

from when to when ...........?

4.4 to 5.5

So I err - it’s actually only 1.1 mins.

It’s actually a good speech now that I have listened to it.

[winner69]

This was quite good on twitter

The year is 2035. Chris Hipkins is currently the third Prime Minister of the 6th Labour Government. Current National Party Leader Max Key has just lost a vote of no confidence. Mark Mitchell puts his hat into the ring for the 17th time. People still need to Google who he is

[Balance]

This was quite good on twitter

The year is 2035. Chris Hipkins is currently the third Prime Minister of the 6th Labour Government. Current National Party Leader Max Key has just lost a vote of no confidence. Mark Mitchell puts his hat into the ring for the 17th time. People still need to Google who he is

And houses in Auckland are $2.5m (minimum) now and the waiting list for state housing is 243,600.

Gangs now roam freely and control South Auckland, Rotorua & Bay of Plenty with Poto Williams still Police Minister.

Parliament is racially structured with 50% Maori representation under the co-governance bill pushed through by the Maori cabal in Cindy’s government.

And Cindy is travelling around the globe as UN’ s roaming ambassador for disasters and special advisor on how to eliminate diseases.

[fungus pudding]

4.4 to 5.5

So I err - it’s actually only 1.1 mins.

It’s actually a good speech now that I have listened to it.
That was my memory of it from when he first delivered it. I couldn't be bothered going right through it so thanks for quoting times. His minute or so about his godbothering is sort of reassuring - if you believe it.

[winner69]

Australia seems to cope with a dedicated church guy as PM

[Getty]

Australia seems to cope with a dedicated church guy as PM

Are you saying you want to be PM winner?

[fungus pudding]

Australia seems to cope with a dedicated church guy as PM

And Helen Clark didn't have the believers burnt at the stake for not sharing In her atheism.

[Baa_Baa]

He spent his maiden speech talking about religion, rather than what he would do to improve NZ (probably next to nothing since it works well for people such as himself).

What a load of rubbish and another own-goal embarrassment to yourself. 233 words of his 2,518 word maiden speech (https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20210324_053340000/luxon-christopher-mallard-trevor) were dedicated to his faith. Here's what he actually said:

"It seems it has become acceptable to stereotype those who have a Christian faith in public life as being extreme, so I will say a little about my Christian faith. It has anchored me, given my life purpose, and shaped my values, and it puts me in the context of something bigger than myself. My faith has a strong influence on who I am and how I relate to people. I see Jesus showing compassion, tolerance, and care for others. He doesn't judge, discriminate, or reject people. He loves unconditionally.

Through history, we have seen Christians making a huge difference by entering public life. Christian abolitionists fought against slavery. Others educated the poor and challenged the rich to share their wealth and help others less fortunate. The world is a better place for Christians like William Wilberforce, Martin Luther King, and Kate Sheppard contributing to public life. My faith is personal to me. It is not in itself a political agenda. I believe no religion should dictate to the State, and no politician should use the political platform they have to force their beliefs on others. As MPs, we serve the common cause of all New Zealanders—not one religion, not one group, not one interest. A person should not be elected because of their faith, nor should they be rejected because of it. Democracy thrives on diverse thinking and different world views."

[Getty]

NZ society has deteriorated under Ms Adhern's leadership, to the point that Mr Luxon, or anybody else, would be given more mana & credence if they said they were an ex gang leader.

Update ya CV's guys!

[BlackPeter]

And houses in Auckland are $2.5m (minimum) now and the waiting list for state housing is 243,600.

Gangs now roam freely and control South Auckland, Rotorua & Bay of Plenty with Poto Williams still Police Minister.

Parliament is racially structured with 50% Maori representation under the co-governance bill pushed through by the Maori cabal in Cindy’s government.

And Cindy is travelling around the globe as UN’ s roaming ambassador for disasters and special advisor on how to eliminate diseases.

.. and it all started with a misnamed chair called "Goodfellow" hand in hand with an appropriately nicknamed "Crusher" (or perhaps slightly misspelled) "Crasher" Judith Collins destroying the National party while a poster misnamed "balance" was trying to tear down an (admittedly) imperfect government instead of helping to build a better alternative.

We clearly have too many people wielding sledgehammers and throwing hand granades but not enough people seeking to find consensus and rebuilding a decent society ... and hey, we all knew it in 2021.

Somehow it feels again like the 1920íes - political adversaries turning into mortal enemies, political extremists getting stronger on both sides of the spectrum and countries more and more following populist hypes ("us first") instead searching for the common good.

We all know how the 1920íes ended ... lets hope the 2020'es aren't a re-run, shall we?

We clearly need better leaders able to unify the people and we need better people looking for the common good instead of increasing their level of selfishness and hate towards everybody with a different view.

[fungus pudding]

He spent his maiden speech talking about religion, rather than what he would do to improve NZ (probably next to nothing since it works well for people such as himself).
People 'such as himself' generally thrive because of their attitude - not because of the government of the day.( i e . the way NZ is)

[davflaws]

"It seems it has become acceptable to stereotype those who have a Christian faith in public life as being extreme, so I will say a little about my Christian faith. It has anchored me, given my life purpose, and shaped my values, and it puts me in the context of something bigger than myself. My faith has a strong influence on who I am and how I relate to people. I see Jesus showing compassion, tolerance, and care for others. He doesn't judge, discriminate, or reject people. He loves unconditionally.

Through history, we have seen Christians making a huge difference by entering public life. Christian abolitionists fought against slavery. Others educated the poor and challenged the rich to share their wealth and help others less fortunate. The world is a better place for Christians like William Wilberforce, Martin Luther King, and Kate Sheppard contributing to public life. My faith is personal to me. It is not in itself a political agenda. I believe no religion should dictate to the State, and no politician should use the political platform they have to force their beliefs on others. As MPs, we serve the common cause of all New Zealanders—not one religion, not one group, not one interest. A person should not be elected because of their faith, nor should they be rejected because of it. Democracy thrives on diverse thinking and different world views."
As a devout pastafarian - I say Ramen to that!

[Blue Skies]

That was my memory of it from when he first delivered it. I couldn't be bothered going right through it so thanks for quoting times. His minute or so about his godbothering is sort of reassuring - if you believe it.


Referencing the religious content.
Luxon's speech was deliberately & clearly crafted to front foot the issue of his Evangelical Christian beliefs which risk being a big turn off for middle NZ voters.
"The trick for Luxon is to convince the public there's no threat, that he'd be a leader for all, not just the religious right."

It's a big vulnerability esp when you look more closely at Evangelical Christians beliefs, including broadly that women should submit to the authority & leadership of their husbands, they encourage women to have a submissive role. You won't find women in leadership roles in Evangelical churches.

You'd have to think seriously about someone who attends a church where sermons from the pulpit are laced with, while a wife may not agree her husband, she should just do whatever he says, because that's what women are called to do.


Apart from the anti-euthanasia, anti same- sex marriage, etc stuff,
this risks a big turn off to a section of National supporters as well as middle NZ, and don't think the liberal's in National's caucus as well as Labour's media team won't be thinking about this already.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/439247/luxon-s-religious-views-risk-turning-off-middle-ground-voters

[Getty]

Any observations from the elder statesman Jim Bolger's interview on Q & A this morn?

It was good to see Jack Tame let him express himself, and give opinion, without being bombarded and taken off on tangents.

[justakiwi]

Yep. A vote for National would be off the table for me, under his leadership. I have no issue with religion in general, but Evangelical Christianity is a different kettle of fish. I don't believe he would be able to separate his religion from his politics.


Referencing the religious content.
Luxon's speech was deliberately & clearly crafted to front foot the issue of his Evangelical Christian beliefs which risk being a big turn off for middle NZ voters.
"The trick for Luxon is to convince the public there's no threat, that he'd be a leader for all, not just the religious right."

It's a big vulnerability esp when you look more closely at Evangelical Christians beliefs, including broadly that women should submit to the authority & leadership of their husbands, they encourage women to have a submissive role. You won't find women in leadership roles in Evangelical churches.

You'd have to think seriously about someone who attends a church where sermons from the pulpit are laced with, while a wife may not agree her husband, she should just do whatever he says, because that's what women are called to do.


Apart from the anti-euthanasia, anti same- sex marriage, etc stuff,
this risks a big turn off to a section of National supporters as well as middle NZ, and don't think the liberal's in National's caucus as well as Labour's media team won't be thinking about this already.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/439247/luxon-s-religious-views-risk-turning-off-middle-ground-voters

[Panda-NZ-]

What a load of rubbish and another own-goal embarrassment to yourself. 233 words of his 2,518 word maiden speech (https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20210324_053340000/luxon-christopher-mallard-trevor) were dedicated to his faith. Here's what he actually said:



The media reports it quite differently:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-air-nz-boss-christopher-luxon-explains-his-christian-faith-in-maiden-speech/RWFT54SHFJBYERYXRZBW27XJM4/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/124647071/exair-nz-ceo-christopher-luxon-gives-maiden-speech-to-parliament-defends-his-christianity

[FTG]

Yep. A vote for National would be off the table for me, under his leadership.





As yet, National has never received my vote, but that does not mean they never will.





But let's not forget, as you have previously confirmed, you have NEVER voted for National........and therefore it seems, regardless of the who the leader is and what their religious beliefs are.

[couta1]

Yep. A vote for National would be off the table for me, under his leadership. I have no issue with religion in general, but Evangelical Christianity is a different kettle of fish. I don't believe he would be able to separate his religion from his politics. But could anyone really separate their beliefs (Whatever they may be) from their politics? Your core beliefs if they are strong enough run through all your life and the decisions you make whether right or wrong. I would call Luxon a moderately conservative Christian and I think the Evangelical label is unhelpful, he would get my vote based on his values and huge business/economic experience, I mean he's done substantially more than fry a basket of fish and chips.

[Balance]

Yep. A vote for National would be off the table for me, under his leadership. I have no issue with religion in general, but Evangelical Christianity is a different kettle of fish. I don't believe he would be able to separate his religion from his politics.

And so you voted for Clueless Cindy - has she showed she can separate her atheist beliefs from her politics and policies?

Maybe you need a religion reset like Cindy did with all her failed policy resets - CGT, Kiwibuild, Elimination, Child Poverty, Mental Health, Immigration, 3 Waters ...the list goes on and on.

[Getty]

But could anyone really separate their beliefs (Whatever they may be) from their politics? Your core beliefs if they are strong enough run through all your life and the decisions you make whether right or wrong. I would call Luxon a moderately conservative Christian and I think the Evangelical label is unhelpful, he would get my vote based on his values and huge business/economic experience, I mean he's done substantially more than fry a basket of fish and chips.

Ah, but how many comrades can he fit into a sound bite?

[Panda-NZ-]

Does he believe in a rapture?

Oooga booga.

[justakiwi]

I was waiting for you to show up ;)
I have never yet voted for National because they have never yet met my brief for what I expect/want from a government. Previous leaders religious beliefs have not been a consideration to date, but as I just said, Evangelical Christianity is a different kettle of fish to mainstream religions. So, right now, I would not vote for National if Luxon was leader. My personal experience with evangelicals is that they cannot separate their religion from their politics. Luxon would have to work hard to convince me that he would be the exception to the rule.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, what I have or haven't done in the past, has no bearing on what I might do in the future. If someone else becomes leader, and National manages to pull off a miracle before the next election, maybe I will vote for them. I do not know who I am voting for yet. But it will not be National with an Evangelical at the helm.





But, as you have already confirmed, you have NEVER voted for National........regardless of the who the leader is and what their religious beliefs.

[Balance]

The media reports it quite differently:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-air-nz-boss-christopher-luxon-explains-his-christian-faith-in-maiden-speech/RWFT54SHFJBYERYXRZBW27XJM4/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/124647071/exair-nz-ceo-christopher-luxon-gives-maiden-speech-to-parliament-defends-his-christianity

So you rely purely on the media to make your assessments & postings?

No wonder you are such a lousy investor as well. :t_up:

[couta1]

Does he believe in a rapture?

Oooga booga. Dont know you'd have to ask him but whether he believes in it or not should it happen he will be part of it as a Christian, thats the great thing heads you win, tails you win. Lol

[Balance]

Dont know you'd have to ask him but whether he believes in it or not should it happen he will be part of it as a Christian, thats the great thing heads you win, tails you win. Lol

Good one, couta1!

Comrades of course believe that everyone must be equal irrespective of how lazy one is - wealth must be transferred from the hard working to those who prefer to be on welfare. Win win for beneficiaries & the comrades breeding them for votes.

[Getty]

I mean he's done substantially more than fry a basket of fish and chips.

Between Clarke Gayford's liking for fishing, and comrade Jacinda's liking for the fry, they have control of the means and distribution sorted out.

Karl Marx would be impressed.

[Blue Skies]

But could anyone really separate their beliefs (Whatever they may be) from their politics? Your core beliefs if they are strong enough run through all your life and the decisions you make whether right or wrong. I would call Luxon a moderately conservative Christian and I think the Evangelical label is unhelpful, he would get my vote based on his values and huge business/economic experience, I mean he's done substantially more than fry a basket of fish and chips.



You may label him what you like if it makes you comfortable, But, Luxon openly defines himself an Evangelical Christian & attends an Evangelical church.
Whether its helpful or not is irrelevant since that's how he defines his beliefs himself. See how you get on telling him he's wrong.

Anyway, can we look at the big picture everyone, what middle NZ voters might think, instead of arguing over who you or I might vote for.
National need to reclaim the middle ground if they are going to be the next govt, and astonishingly this will be the 5th National leader Jacinda has faced since becoming Prime Minister.
They can't afford to screw it up again.

I don't mean to go on about the religious thing, but am raising it because I can see it becoming an issue with a large number of voters in the campaigns leading up to the next election.

[Balance]

You may label him what you like if it makes you comfortable, But, Luxon openly defines himself an Evangelical Christian & attends an Evangelical church.
Whether its helpful or not is irrelevant since that's how he defines his beliefs himself. See how you get on telling him he's wrong.

Anyway, can we look at the big picture everyone, what middle NZ voters might think, instead of arguing over who you or I might vote for.
National need to reclaim the middle ground if they are going to be the next govt, and astonishingly this will be the 5th National leader Jacinda has faced since becoming Prime Minister.
They can't afford to screw it up again.

I don't mean to go on about the religious thing, but am raising it because I can see it becoming an issue with a large number of voters in the campaigns leading up to the next election.

Labour & Jamie Lee Ross brought it up as an issue in Botany electorate and it made no difference to the outcome there.

And yes, a desperate Labour is going to bring it up but has Labour's atheism not influenced government policies for the worse?

[fungus pudding]

You may label him what you like if it makes you comfortable, But, Luxon openly defines himself an Evangelical Christian & attends an Evangelical church.
Whether its helpful or not is irrelevant since that's how he defines his beliefs himself. See how you get on telling him he's wrong.

Anyway, can we look at the big picture everyone, what middle NZ voters might think, instead of arguing over who you or I might vote for.
National need to reclaim the middle ground if they are going to be the next govt, and astonishingly this will be the 5th National leader Jacinda has faced since becoming Prime Minister.
They can't afford to screw it up again.

I don't mean to go on about the religious thing, but am raising it because I can see it becoming an issue with a large number of voters in the campaigns leading up to the next election.

I'm not so sure about that. Up until Clarke came along and had the guts to stand up and say she didn't believe in Gods, previous PMs used to mumble about a god, although I'm sure some were just having a bob each way with the voters.

[Panda-NZ-]

I'm not so sure about that. Up until Clarke came along and had the guts to stand up and say she didn't believe in Gods, previous PMs used to mumble about a god, although I'm sure some were just having a bob each way with the voters.

*Clark, Helen.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvhnRZsv4Q4

Australia's evangelical PM has made it illegal to criticise religion in Australia.

[Blue Skies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvhnRZsv4Q4

Australia's evangelical PM has made it illegal to criticise religion in Australia.



Shocking, the bill will allow people to override anti-discriminatory Federal laws, on the basis of a persons religious beliefs.
e.g. a school principal might not employ a gay teacher or discriminate against a gay student, or allow a business to discriminate against a person of another religion, or a doctor to object to certain procedures. They're even seeking assurances it won't allow discrimination against people with a physical disability.
After the Israel Folau incident, you would think they would have learnt their lesson but I suppose he got a lot of support from some religious groups.
Such a backward step.
Not much different to the Taliban.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/23/scott-morrison-promises-senate-inquiry-to-calm-fears-over-religious-discrimination-bill

[justakiwi]

I rest my case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvhnRZsv4Q4

Australia's evangelical PM has made it illegal to criticise religion in Australia.

[fungus pudding]

Shocking, the bill will allow people to override anti-discriminatory Federal laws, on the basis of a persons religious beliefs.
e.g. a school principal might not employ a gay teacher or discriminate against a gay student, or allow a business to discriminate against a person of another religion, or a doctor to object to certain procedures. They're even seeking assurances it won't allow discrimination against people with a physical disability.
After the Israel Folau incident, you would think they would have learnt their lesson but I suppose he got a lot of support from some religious groups.
Such a backward step.
Not much different to the Taliban.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/23/scott-morrison-promises-senate-inquiry-to-calm-fears-over-religious-discrimination-bill

All the legislation in the world will not prevent discrimination. No law can control what you think. - Discriminate all you like - just keep the reason to yourself.
If you don't like Muslim bi-sexual dwarves, no law can make you employ one. Just don't tell her why.

[Blue Skies]

All the legislation in the world will not prevent discrimination. No law can control what you think. - Discriminate all you like - just keep the reason to yourself.
If you don't like Muslim bi-sexual dwarves, no law can make you employ one. Just don't tell her why.


Imagine, people like Israel Folau will be able to spout all that gays will go to hell & damnation stuff with complete impunity, Australian Rugby Union would not be able to terminate his contract under this law.

[fungus pudding]

Imagine, people like Israel Folau will be able to spout all that gays will go to hell & damnation stuff with complete impunity, Australian Rugby Union would not be able to terminate his contract under this law.

So he should be - not that I agree with him, but I fully support free speech - whatever it is.

[Blue Skies]

So he should be - not that I agree with him, but I fully support free speech - whatever it is.


Not when Israel Folau's free speech is incredibly damaging to other people, esp younger vulnerable teenagers struggling with sexuality or any vulnerable person battling repression.

It's like the appalling stories of Catholic priests & nuns in Ireland (& elsewhere), telling unmarried mothers they would spend eternity in hell & taking their babies off them, or controlling abused children with similar threats of damnation if they told their parents.

No thinking decent person could 'fully support Free Speech - whatever it is', & I think/hope you don't mean that.

[fungus pudding]

Not when Israel Folau's free speech is incredibly damaging to other people, esp younger vulnerable teenagers struggling with sexuality or any vulnerable person battling repression.

It's like the appalling stories of Catholic priests & nuns in Ireland (& elsewhere), telling unmarried mothers they would spend eternity in hell & taking their babies off them, or controlling abused children with similar threats of damnation if they told their parents.

No thinking decent person could 'fully support Free Speech - whatever it is', & I think/hope you don't mean that.

Catholic churches in NZ preach eternal damnation - burning in hell for all eternity and similar nonsense. Some other churches aren't much different. If that's their belief surely they can say so. As far as threats to tell parents if kids have been abused (by the church I imagine) that's so different. It's criminal stuff. Threats of violence etc - definitely not. That's criminal. Personally I wouldn't let children near any religous organisation while they're young and gullible. If I believed in banning speech - religous instruction to kids would be the first to go, Sunday schools, bible classes and camps etc. Plenty of time to explore such things when they can reason - not when they're into Noddy and Superman. So I'm all for free speech but with age limits for certain things, a bit like we have movie censorship e.g. Adults, R18 etc.

[couta1]

Catholic churches in NZ preach eternal damnation - burning in hell for all eternity and similar nonsense. Some other churches aren't much different. If that's their belief surely they can say so. As far as threats to tell parents if kids have been abused (by the church I imagine) that's so different. It's criminal stuff. Threats of violence etc - definitely not. That's criminal. Personally I wouldn't let children near any religous organisation while they're young and gullible. If I believed in banning speech - religous instruction to kids would be the first to go, Sunday schools, bible classes and camps etc. Plenty of time to explore such things when they can reason - not when they're into Noddy and Superman. So I'm all for free speech but with age limits for certain things, a bit like we have movie censorship e.g. Adults, R18 etc. The traditional teaching of hell is not even scriptural, it has its origins from the Italian Poet Dante and then was picked up by the Roman Catholic Church, until the King James Bible was printed the only words used in the Hebrew and Greek for the place of the dead was Sheol and Hades. I was also taught this myth 40 yrs ago when I started following the Christian faith and believed it for many years but have since seen its absurdity. The idea that God will have some eternal torture chamber running in the background forever is completely insane but yes it is the tool of fear used against many.

[moka]

Shocking, the bill will allow people to override anti-discriminatory Federal laws, on the basis of a persons religious beliefs.
e.g. a school principal might not employ a gay teacher or discriminate against a gay student, or allow a business to discriminate against a person of another religion, or a doctor to object to certain procedures. They're even seeking assurances it won't allow discrimination against people with a physical disability.
After the Israel Folau incident, you would think they would have learnt their lesson but I suppose he got a lot of support from some religious groups.
Such a backward step.
Not much different to the Taliban.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/23/scott-morrison-promises-senate-inquiry-to-calm-fears-over-religious-discrimination-bill No, it is not different to the Taliban. It’s the same philosophy to dominate those who are “other.”

The bill is about maintaining about white supremacy.

In the most basic sense, white supremacy is a philosophical, material, ethical, economic, scientific, religious, and political system that works to maintain the dominant and relative superior group position of those identified as "white" (and their allies) over those marked as "non-white." Not just white, but heterosexual, Christian and male.

White privilege is central here: those people considered “white” are also judged to be “normal”; the experiences of white people are taken to be universal and a baseline for how others are to be evaluated; blacks are judged en masse as having “bad culture” while whites are de facto viewed as having “good culture.”

White people are viewed as individuals where the bad behavior of one white person does not reflect at all on the merits of the group. By comparison, people of color are not afforded that freedom.

Implicit and subconscious bias, as well as taken for granted stereotypes and “common sense,” can also serve a white supremacist order.
https://www.alternet.org/2014/04/10-things-everyone-should-know-about-white-supremacy/

[moka]

So he should be - not that I agree with him, but I fully support free speech - whatever it is.I read about someone defending their right to free speech as believing they have the right to point out the flaws in others. Those at the top point out the flaws of those beneath them, the poor, the unemployed, non-whites, non-Christians etc.

I think it is time to use our right to free speech to focus on the flaws of those at the top who see themselves as the dominant group, which I describe as the stale, pale, male who does not believe in equality. Society reflects the views of the dominant group, with institutionalised racism and sexism widespread in Western culture.

[fungus pudding]

I read about someone defending their right to free speech as believing they have the right to point out the flaws in others. Those at the top point out the flaws of those beneath them, the poor, the unemployed, non-whites, non-Christians etc.



Garbage. Everyone has the right to point out flaws in others, whether they are above, below, or equal. Whether they should or not is another matter. The poor, the unemployed, the non-whites, non Christians, those you see as being beneath others, are undoubtedly just as good at finding flaws in others.

[moka]

What a load of rubbish and another own-goal embarrassment to yourself. 233 words of his 2,518 word maiden speech (https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20210324_053340000/luxon-christopher-mallard-trevor) were dedicated to his faith. Here's what he actually said:

"It seems it has become acceptable to stereotype those who have a Christian faith in public life as being extreme, so I will say a little about my Christian faith. It has anchored me, given my life purpose, and shaped my values, and it puts me in the context of something bigger than myself.

My faith has a strong influence on who I am and how I relate to people. I see Jesus showing compassion, tolerance, and care for others. He doesn't judge, discriminate, or reject people. He loves unconditionally.

Through history, we have seen Christians making a huge difference by entering public life. Christian abolitionists fought against slavery. Others educated the poor and challenged the rich to share their wealth and help others less fortunate. The world is a better place for Christians like William Wilberforce, Martin Luther King, and Kate Sheppard contributing to public life. My faith is personal to me. It is not in itself a political agenda. I believe no religion should dictate to the State, and no politician should use the political platform they have to force their beliefs on others. As MPs, we serve the common cause of all New Zealanders—not one religion, not one group, not one interest. A person should not be elected because of their faith, nor should they be rejected because of it. Democracy thrives on diverse thinking and different world views."But Luxon then wants to limit other people’s freedoms because of his religious beliefs. He is entitled to his personal views, but he does not have the right to impose them on others or to judge others who make decisions to have abortions, euthanasia or use recreational cannabis.

Luxon told Morning Report that he was anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia and doesn’t want to legalise recreational marijuana.
Unfortunately, many people with strong religious views do want to impose their views on others. This does not show compassion, tolerance and care for others.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/christopher-luxon-to-stand-for-national-party-in-auckland-seat-of-botany

[moka]

I have never yet voted for National because they have never yet met my brief for what I expect/want from a government. Previous leaders religious beliefs have not been a consideration to date, but as I just said, Evangelical Christianity is a different kettle of fish to mainstream religions. So, right now, I would not vote for National if Luxon was leader. My personal experience with evangelicals is that they cannot separate their religion from their politics. Luxon would have to work hard to convince me that he would be the exception to the rule.
What does it mean to be an evangelical Christian?

Chris Trotter discusses it in this article.

“Chris Luxon has been identified as an evangelical Christian. That’s why I believe Chris Luxon owes New Zealanders a working definition of evangelical Christianity – and how he intends to practice it.

A private matter? Well, that might be true if Luxon was a person moving into private life.

What, then, is generally understood by the term Christian evangelism? At its core, evangelism is about the active spreading of Christ’s teachings – especially among those who are ignorant of his message. For a politician to identify himself as an evangelical Christian is, therefore, a matter of considerable importance.

If such politicians are genuine in their self-characterisation, then they will take every opportunity their public office provides to proselytise on behalf of their faith. They will also feel obliged to bear witness against beliefs and practices they believe to be evil. To do all they can to save the souls of those who are in the grip of sin. Christian evangelism is, above all else, faith in action.”

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/11/08/chosen-to-rule-what-sort-of-christian-is-chris-luxon/