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elZorro
27-06-2013, 06:53 AM
Craic, I hope you're still around to read this, I didn't see that post yesterday. You must be in good health if you're out there clobbering big trees for firewood.

My post was a bit tongue in cheek, but certainly David Shearer is getting better at the TV work. Maybe he'll get rolled, like Ms Gillard, but that's not the point. It should be all about policies.

The latest work the National Govt has done for the economy is to assume that postal volume will continue to fall 8% a year, for every year. This means that within a few years there will be no postal items at all. All of the relatively newly built Waikato Mail Sorting building and its expensive equipment will be mothballed by next year, over 120 Waikato people out of work, and mail that is posted in Hamilton, to go to someone else in Hamilton, will be travelling all the way to Auckland and back on the roads, just to get sorted. Madness. Overall only 120 jobs will be saved nationwide at first, and I assume they'll then bring in very intensive sorting systems to drop more jobs from the main centres once they can do so.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8846617/Waikato-region-slammed-by-post-cuts

I'm spending over $20,000 a year with NZPost, sending smaller volume export items overseas, because they have been the cheapest to deal with. Not the easiest, and the frowns and feedback I get when I turn up at the counter with say 15-20 mins before closing time, tells me that if they're not careful, I will need to take my business elsewhere.

craic
27-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Two points - at least. I wonder if Julia Gillard has any room on the back of her camel for David Shearer as she rides off into the desert. Your problem with the post was solved in the century before last when ordinary postage was as much as a shilling and only used by the wealthy. A fellow instituted penny postage and created one of the most successful businesses ever - the post office, employing tens of thousands of people. For the past few decades his successors have been incapable of maintaining the model and have lived by the cost plus model to the detriment of everyone. As to the tree. I half killed myself late yesterday getting a Husky 395 (94cc) up the vertical slope through scrub so that I could cut from the butt and avoid stuff coming down on top of me ony to find that an ill-matched chain and bar couldn't cut straight through the butt. But all is well -my TEL shares are a cent short of my SELL order and the Aussies come aboard in less than half an hour

elZorro
27-06-2013, 02:00 PM
Looks like you still have your TEL shares? Anyway here is a video of your Husky I think, it's a lot easier to watch than having to use one. Hat's off to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltsQV7I1LBk

westerly
27-06-2013, 06:25 PM
I was wondering if you guys read the Herald, it must be a right-wing paper then..

None of those polled can have been watching David Shearer getting more confident with each camera appearance. And John Key's policy of "Just Smile and Wave" is working.

However, David Shearer is twice as popular as Winston Peters for PM, and the drop in vote for "other" means Labour is up by 3% more votes than the 2011 result. I still say the Labour-Green policies are much better than National's "do-nothing" policies.

I'm not afraid to say I'll be voting Labour (or the Greens)..

A poll of 750 voters,margin of error 3.5% Who are they kidding?

I would suggest with out knowing how many refused to take part, what time of day it was conducted, how the respondents were selected, and 750 is nowhere a representative sample the polls results have no relevance.

As for the preferred PM who ever gets the most media publicity just prior to the poll will always do well. And John certainly manages the publicity to great effect.

There is a definite newspaper bias to the right given that business is about money and not people so it is probably understandable.

Westerly

elZorro
27-06-2013, 06:54 PM
A poll of 750 voters,margin of error 3.5% Who are they kidding?

I would suggest with out knowing how many refused to take part, what time of day it was conducted, how the respondents were selected, and 750 is nowhere a representative sample the polls results have no relevance.

As for the preferred PM who ever gets the most media publicity just prior to the poll will always do well. And John certainly manages the publicity to great effect.

There is a definite newspaper bias to the right given that business is about money and not people so it is probably understandable.

Westerly

I think quite a few of the Sunday Star Times columnists are more centrist or left-leaning, I quite like that paper. The Herald was a bit mean to Mr Shearer yesterday. Of course, this helps to form public opinion. As long as the punters don't read up too much on policy, National's going for the safe ground and trying not to offend anyone. But they're not achieving anything for the average worker, meanwhile inequities increase.

elZorro
28-06-2013, 06:43 AM
Someone is firing from the hip. Pretty much a load of rubbish, but it's a press release.

http://business.scoop.co.nz/2013/06/27/labour-misleads-on-small-business-numbers/

Could National be thinking about an early election?

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/65087/opinion-government-working-its-way-rather-nasty-bind-and-faces-decisions-next-two-mont

craic
28-06-2013, 09:40 AM
It might be a move for John Key, to take advantage of the leadership problem in the Labour Party. A very similar position to the situation with Gillard in Australia where everyone, except those wearing rose-coloured glasses knew that a change had to take place at the top if they were to have a chance in the election. I know that EZ sees something in the opposition leader that nobody else seems to have noticed. Imagine the furore that would engulf the Labour Party if this was suddenly put on them. Russel Norman would immediately release his disneyland Economic Policy that he will implement as minister of Finance in the new Labour led government. Hone Harawira would want to be minister of Maori Affairs

elZorro
28-06-2013, 10:53 AM
It might be a move for John Key, to take advantage of the leadership problem in the Labour Party. A very similar position to the situation with Gillard in Australia where everyone, except those wearing rose-coloured glasses knew that a change had to take place at the top if they were to have a chance in the election. I know that EZ sees something in the opposition leader that nobody else seems to have noticed. Imagine the furore that would engulf the Labour Party if this was suddenly put on them. Russel Norman would immediately release his disneyland Economic Policy that he will implement as minister of Finance in the new Labour led government. Hone Harawira would want to be minister of Maori Affairs

But Labour has already stated publicly that Russel Norman will not be finance leader if they get in at the next election, Craic. And Hone Hawawira would similarly be able to muster limited power over the choice of any roles.

We all know there are some very bright cookies in the Labour camp. If they put David Shearer up for the role of leader, there must have been a good reason, and in theory he is the best placed to take on the job, at least when the internal vote was made.

craic
28-06-2013, 12:38 PM
You're confusing what they do with what they say. Putting David Shearer up for leader doesn't mean that "the bright cookies in the Labour party" were right. What the public see is the important factor and the same bright cookies will now know that he is not cutting the mustard and, while they may hope that the next sixteen or so months might deliver a swing, If Key moves they may have to have a rethink. Personally, I don't think that he will bring the election forward because he appears to be on a winning streak.

slimwin
28-06-2013, 02:12 PM
There's very bright cookies in nearly every party if you care to take the blinkers off.
This is not the only requirement to lead the country.

elZorro
30-06-2013, 05:54 PM
Over the last few days we've seen how clever and original-thinking the National govt is: they have changed their mind on the Auckland rail tunnel idea because there looks to be a lot of votes in it. Labour had already looked at the concept and decided that it was a sound idea.

Labour convincingly held onto the late Parekura Horomia's Maori seat in the by-election, with their strong candidate Meka Whaitiri. National did not contest, presumably because they'd be on a hiding to nothing, and it would only look bad.

Another telling communication for me was this message within an email I received from John Key (yes, I keep an eye on both of the big party propaganda messages):


John Key: ...I want to leave New Zealand in better shape than when I first became Prime Minister.

Now where have I heard that before?

slimwin
30-06-2013, 08:45 PM
Reviewing and changing your mind,as opposed to blindly following party agenda ( and dogma for that matter) is smart.

That's how we decided to move out of caves no?

So NZ, or at least Auckland, wins and we get a complaint. It seems strange to me.

craic
01-07-2013, 08:02 AM
Our local Maori seat is as meaningful in the scheme of things as my decision this morning to butter my toast on the side that was up rather than turning it over. A fraction of the elegible voters, 0ne-third, bothered to vote. Of the remaining two-thirds many would be National supporters who didn't have a candidate. The Mana party candidate is, or so I understand, a prominent face on Maori programmes as a presenter and would have gained much of his support from that factor alone. Maori are not rushing back to the Maori Electoral roll as many Maori activists believe should happen. It is common now to hear people say that they don't want to be in a seperate category and would prefer one nation - one people. Now if Winston Peters got his act together and stopped combing his hair and looking in the mirror then he could be on a winner.

slimwin
01-07-2013, 07:09 PM
Just maybe huh. Or we just wait till Labour gets in. Whenever that is...

Major von Tempsky
02-07-2013, 12:41 PM
"Labour convincingly held onto the late Parekura Horomia's Maori seat in the by-election, with their strong candidate Meka Whaitiri."

Once again we have some absolutely dizzying spin from EZ as he crashes and burns.

One media commentator noted that the Labour candidate scored less than Parekura Horomia's majority in the last general election.

"Convincingly"?

I can't stop laughing.

elZorro
02-07-2013, 03:27 PM
"Labour convincingly held onto the late Parekura Horomia's Maori seat in the by-election, with their strong candidate Meka Whaitiri."

Once again we have some absolutely dizzying spin from EZ as he crashes and burns.

One media commentator noted that the Labour candidate scored less than Parekura Horomia's majority in the last general election.

"Convincingly"?

I can't stop laughing.

Interesting turn-of-phrase there, MVT, but I was hardly going to say that Labour squeaked in at the by-election. There wasn't a big turnout, but they certainly won the thing. Ms Whaitiri has plenty of political pedigree, and had been helping Parekura for many years. She's not a bunny.

My wife was sent a National party brochure yeterday in the post, full of half-truths, and I will deconstruct it a bit more when I get the chance. Suffice to say that this glossy 4-page publication paints a rosy picture of a strongly recovering NZ, yet in the Herald today (page A3) I see that over 38% of all respondents in the Digipoll thought they were worse off than two years ago, another 40% said they were the same.

While most costs have gone up, wage rises have been put on hold, and many have less takehome after changes to govt super policy etc. Those in jobs are mostly too worried to move. (The govt says unemployment is down, but of course the number of jobs has probably dropped, people are giving up on employment hopes). Another bleak indicator is that we are all buying 25% more takeaways than a few years ago. Why? because we're running around more, less time to cook at home, and the budget restraints (fuel costs are way up) mean cheaper will have to do, more often.

As an example of this, have a look next time you're in a queue at a service station. Depending on the location, many are putting a fraction of a tank in the car each time. Transport costs (and house rental costs) are clobbering leftover spending power.

slimwin
02-07-2013, 03:53 PM
Interesting. I cook at home when I want to be cheap and buy takeaways when I have money in my pocket. What am I doing wrong here?

elZorro
02-07-2013, 03:57 PM
Interesting. I cook at home when I want to be cheap and buy takeaways when I have money in my pocket. What am I doing wrong here?

Family of four at the chippie: $10 for 4x fish, $4 chips, 4 sausages, 4 potato fritters. Poor quality quick food most likely. We'll all pay for it in the health system, later.

POSSUM THE CAT
02-07-2013, 04:29 PM
el Zorro please give me the chippies address will try it next time I am in Hamilton. At those prices they should be patronized. I would like to know how they do it

slimwin
02-07-2013, 04:32 PM
I just made 2.5 liters of corn and bacon soup for about $6.50. A whole loaf of bread with that would be close to ten. I assure you it's very yummy.
Sometimes when i'm lazy i get fish and chips. I get lazy most friday nights...

elZorro
02-07-2013, 05:34 PM
Yes, all very good points you two - PTC, the chippie is in Mangere according to the Herald. Sounds like a good recipe Slimwin.

I'm just being pedantic here, but if you were holding down 2-3 low-paid jobs (I did at one stage) and didn't want to spend the little spare time you had awake, cooking - then takeaway food has some extra appeal. You could even figure out the labour cost of cooking the food, doing the dishes, and the power it used. When it's my cooking night, also Friday, we usually have takeaways, and in my case I admit it's only because I'm lazy.

A 25% extra shift in the spend on takeaways in 4 years is significant I think.

Pita Sharples quitting the Maori Party leadership - on the news tonight the comment was that the Maori Party is in disarray and that another coalition partner for National might disappear, or side with Labour. National don't have many left. Maybe Winston.

slimwin
02-07-2013, 06:07 PM
So the Maori party may make up a coalition of 5 to lead the country? What an absolute disaster that would be.

iceman
02-07-2013, 09:32 PM
Very interesting to follow media comments on this by-election.
The Maori Party got almost exactly the same % as last election in this seat. Media screams they are finished and the Co-Leader resigns.
Labour lost 1/3 of their previous majority and they claim a win and praise their lacklustre Leader.
The votes lost by Labour bleed to the Mana Party which stands for nothing and will never achieve anything. It is a party of protests, seperation and racism. What a sad state of affairs for Maori politics and Maori in general.

The only way these small parties will achieve anything for the constituents is to accept representative (i.e. small) roles working with the larger governing party, whether National or Labour. But when they do, they always get hammered by the electorate because they don´throw manure from the sidelines like Hone always does.

craic
02-07-2013, 10:00 PM
So the Maori party may make up a coalition of 5 to lead the country? What an absolute disaster that would be.

That is exactly my great fear. Not just the tail wagging the dog but maybe four or five tails wagging the same dog. Imagine the hodge-podge of rubbish legislation that would come out of the concessions the"main" party would have to agree with to rule.
An alternative would be a leader with the balls to say no to one or two of the minors and force a further election or let a minority party form a government that was not viable.

iceman
03-07-2013, 08:33 AM
That is exactly my great fear. Not just the tail wagging the dog but maybe four or five tails wagging the same dog. Imagine the hodge-podge of rubbish legislation that would come out of the concessions the"main" party would have to agree with to rule.
An alternative would be a leader with the balls to say no to one or two of the minors and force a further election or let a minority party form a government that was not viable.

I think this mess will scare people off come the elections and they will run back to safe havens. Should Labour have the guts and conviction to stand a strong candidate against Hone, he and his so called party will be history. The Maori Party could well go the same way, undeservedly in my view.

National will probably run a good candidate in Epsom and sign the death certificate for ACT. They can't really do anything else.
The big question is whether Dunne will be back in. If not, then National will take his seat

So maybe, just maybe we may have only National, Labour, Greens, Winston First and the Conservatives (+possibly Dunne) in the next parliament. That would be interesting and yet again leave Winston in the driving seat.

fungus pudding
03-07-2013, 09:13 AM
I think this mess will scare people off come the elections and they will run back to safe havens. Should Labour have the guts and conviction to stand a strong candidate against Hone, he and his so called party will be history. The Maori Party could well go the same way, undeservedly in my view.

National will probably run a good candidate in Epsom and sign the death certificate for ACT. They can't really do anything else.
The big question is whether Dunne will be back in. If not, then National will take his seat

So maybe, just maybe we may have only National, Labour, Greens, Winston First and the Conservatives (+possibly Dunne) in the next parliament. That would be interesting and yet again leave Winston in the driving seat.

National will not kill off Act.

CJ
03-07-2013, 09:25 AM
National will not kill off Act.I tend to agree only because they need a party to the right of them.

The risk is Act will kill off Act. If they dont regroup before the next election, then it wont be a matte of National killing Act but does it have to proactively save Act - that would not be a good look.

With National moving more to the centre, I think Act has (in theory) a lot of natural support but that they didn't like Brash and/or Banks.

fungus pudding
03-07-2013, 09:48 AM
I tend to agree only because they need a party to the right of them.

The risk is Act will kill off Act. If they dont regroup before the next election, then it wont be a matte of National killing Act but does it have to proactively save Act - that would not be a good look.

With National moving more to the centre, I think Act has (in theory) a lot of natural support but that they didn't like Brash and/or Banks.

That's right. They should talk Bascawen into standing again, along with a few others. Perhaps even bring Rodney Hide back. If they could win an electorate seat plus around 3% of the party vote, National would be home and hosed.

iceman
03-07-2013, 10:31 AM
That's right. They should talk Bascawen into standing again, along with a few others. Perhaps even bring Rodney Hide back. If they could win an electorate seat plus around 3% of the party vote, National would be home and hosed.

I think the voters in Epsom are dispondent with ACT after this term. They made a big mistake by turfing out Hide who was a hard working electorate MP and a likable rougue. They replaced him with a political failure and a has been in Dr Brash. But I realise Epsom voters will vote tactically to ensure we get a right of center Government.
Key needs to tread carefully and not upset Epsom. Maybe he will transfer Maggie Barry there and give Colin Graig a clear run on the North Shore to bring in 3-4 MPs with him ! Problem possibly solved and no need for Winston First in the mix !?

slimwin
03-07-2013, 11:45 AM
Colin Craig. Anybody but please. We had a time when the church held power over running the land. It was called the dark ages.

fungus pudding
03-07-2013, 12:00 PM
Colin Craig. Anybody but please. We had a time when the church held power over running the land. It was called the dark ages.

Agreed, although if he manages to keep Labour/Green out, wouldn't that be doing God's work?

slimwin
03-07-2013, 01:30 PM
Possibly best not to get me started on the existance of god. Politics AND religion in a debate. Sounds like a nightmare dinner party!

If he kept L/G out I would still think he was a misogynist, fundamentalist bigot.

fungus pudding
03-07-2013, 01:48 PM
Possibly best not to get me started on the existance of god. Politics AND religion in a debate. Sounds like a nightmare dinner party!

If he kept L/G out I would still think he was a misogynist, fundamentalist bigot.

I agree with all of that, but I'd rather have a misogynist, fundamentalist bigot in power than Cunliffe or Norman anywhere near the treasury benches. :blink:

Major von Tempsky
04-07-2013, 05:09 PM
The question arises - Is Labour sane? Are they going to abolish democracy?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8878722/Labour-proposes-women-only-rule

fungus pudding
04-07-2013, 05:23 PM
The question arises - Is Labour sane? Are they going to abolish democracy?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8878722/Labour-proposes-women-only-rule

They'll soon forget that bit of nonsense. It's unbelievable, coming from a political party.

elZorro
04-07-2013, 10:00 PM
Maybe that's not a policy that will fly. I knew you guys would have something to say about it though, that's the amusing bit.

One thing Labour should have as a policy, that goes right to the core of Labour values, is to promise to go into the Pike River Mine and recover the miners, should they get elected. The current situation is a prime example of the private sector washing its hands of the responsibility, there's no chance of a profit there, so they're not going to do it. The Labour ethos is that government will step in to help fix this situation for the families involved. What kind of a country do we have, what sort of a culture, if we just leave them down there.

iceman
05-07-2013, 07:10 AM
One thing Labour should have as a policy, that goes right to the core of Labour values, is to promise to go into the Pike River Mine and recover the miners, should they get elected.

Are you saying this is a formal policy from Labour ? Will at least half the rescuers be female ?

iceman
05-07-2013, 07:22 AM
Had to laugh reading this on Stuff this morning

" Labour added to its woes yesterday claiming in a press release it had 15 female MPs in its 34 MP line-up. It actually has only 14, even after the addition of Ikaroa-Rawhiti MP Meka Whaitiri.

Even the insiders are getting confused who in the caucus is male and who is female so not much chance of them getting their 50% right :p

slimwin
05-07-2013, 08:26 AM
Maybe Grant Robertson is considered female?

craic
05-07-2013, 08:43 AM
The same culture that leaves a few hundred thousand bodies in the sands of Gallipoli and fields all over europe. The remains are just that - dacayed remains of corpses - What sane society would risk the lives of others just to remove this stuff to cemeteries or ash urns or whatever when the vast amount of monies involved could better be used on the health and welfare of the living?
Maybe that's not a policy that will fly. I knew you guys would have something to say about it though, that's the amusing bit.

One thing Labour should have as a policy, that goes right to the core of Labour values, is to promise to go into the Pike River Mine and recover the miners, should they get elected. The current situation is a prime example of the private sector washing its hands of the responsibility, there's no chance of a profit there, so they're not going to do it. The Labour ethos is that government will step in to help fix this situation for the families involved. What kind of a country do we have, what sort of a culture, if we just leave them down there.

slimwin
05-07-2013, 09:10 AM
I agree craic and i'm certainly not looking at this issue with any political bias. I kind of think the mine should never be touched and is a fitting tomb. If the grieving families don't think that though,then it's not fitting.
If one more life got lost in that mine because of this, and a political party had sent them in, imagine the news then.
Sometimes you really do have to be pragmatic over emotional and cut your losses.
Private sector looks like it isn't getting the chance to wash its hands in court over this one.

elZorro
06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
A bit of press about this from NZResources. As the new owners, the govt through Solid Energy, could arrange something. Certainly DOC dispensation to drill down through the hills and into the mine shaft would provide new ventilation and safer access.


A just decision, but from where will the money come?

Ross Louthean — 6 July 2013
The emotion shown by Judge Jane Farish in handing down her decision in the Greymouth District Court yesterday reflected the anguish and despair for a need to give fair compensation to the bereaved families of the 29 men who lost their lives at the Pike River mine in late 2010.

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/articleimages/4704/judge.jpg (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/tearful-summary-pike-river-judge-video-5488883)
TVNZ footage of Judge Farish presenting her decision.

The problem is that it is a Mother Hubbard situation.
The poor safety management of Pike River Coal Ltd that brought misery to 29 families happened at a time when the company was getting on thin ice with funds, so when the methane blast occurred the company was caught short and had borrowings from major shareholder New Zealand Oil & Gas Ltd (NZOG).
The Pike River Royal Commission exposed all the frailties, incompetence and poor management activities, as well as the grossly inadequate government mine safety work and the disastrous process of allowing the police take control of the mine rescue.
The situation today is how will the compensation to families be paid?
For starters Pike River Coal was fined $760,000 and the receiver made it clear that the pockets were far from full ($500,000 in available funds and.$156,000 in “leftover” insurance money) There is also reparation of $3.41 million to the Pike families, representing $110,000 for each victim and the two survivors.
Then unsecured creditors are owed $31 M, with NZOG still owed $20.5 M from loans to the company.
Receiver John Fisk said he could not see how the families could be paid.
“It's an unfortunate situation but that's the commercial reality of it,” he said.
Judge Farish suggested the company's directors and parent company (NZOG) might be expected to come to the party.
It’s a difficult position for NZOG for the company several years ago sponsored the development and listing of Pike River Coal. One of its representatives on the Pike River board left soon after the disaster, whereas chairman John Dow – a well known figure in the Australasian mining and mining education scene – was at the mine and in Greymouth during the unsuccessful rescue attempts.
NZOG forsook some early payments from the receiver to allow financial relief to some of the contractors and suppliers on the West Coast.
Yesterday lawyers for Pike River directors John Dow, Ray Meyer and Stuart Nattrass, said the company did not "walk away" from the families after the explosion, as was indicated in the families' victim impact statements and by Judge Farish in court.
Law firm Minter Ellison Rudd Watts said "good faith efforts were made by Pike River men and women in the wake of the explosion to support the families by providing, among other things, family liaison services, distribution of food and other parcels, and regular updates at meetings.”
The lawyers’ statement also said it did not accept Judge Farish's comments that no funds had been forthcoming from Pike River to help the companies.
“It should be known that Pike River and NZOG contributed very shortly following the explosion a total of $1 M to funds set up for the benefit of the families.
In her emotional delivery of the ruling Judge Farish said “It was clear that there is significant psychological and emotional trauma that is ongoing for the families of the miners who were killed and also those for the two men survived.”
She said the mine is not the final resting place that the families have chosen for their men.
“The victim impact statements were harrowing and they feel great sorrow, and it's only when you read them in full and you have their collective sorrow that one understand the imperative it is for them to be able bury their brothers, husbands, partners and sons.
"To retrieve the bodies may not answer their nightmares. It may not answer all of the questions that they have. But it may go some way to affording them some peace in their lives."
Counsel for the Pike families, Nic Davidson said there would be a bid for compensation from the Government.
It was claimed that funds available from the coal company would see only $5,000 paid each for survivors and victims’ families.
Chief executive of NZOG, Andrew Knight told Radio New Zealand’s checkpoint programme the company has already given a lot of money to Pike River employees, families, the West Coast community and for tunnel recovery work.
Knight said he needs to listen to Judge Farish's ruling to understand from where she drew her conclusions.
Whether the Government, NZOG or other parties come up with funds for the grieving families is an issue that may evolve through political and legal pressure.
But the issue of families being able to retrieve the remains of their loved ones is highly remote, given that Pike River mine is owned by Solid Energy that is in no position to re-enter or redevelop the mine. This may mean it should be rapidly put back on the market to find a new owner whose purchase price in part could compensate the families.
A possible problem is that several suitors two years ago were deterred by anti-foreign investment sentiments expressed in the media, and a likely buyer would probably have to be a foreigner.
Sources: press.co.nz, radionz.co.nz and nzresources.com files

elZorro
08-07-2013, 06:12 AM
Clear logic from David Shearer, surely no argument about any of this.



Regions being hollowed-out by Government policies - Shearer
Dene Mackenzie — 8 July 2013
Regions like Otago are being hollowed-out by the Government's lack of a regional strategy, Labour Party leader David Shearer said on Friday.
Shearer contacted the Otago Daily Times to express his concern about the ongoing job losses being experienced in the region.
“The Government is not in touch with what is going on in the regions. When jobs are lost, people have no way to support themselves in the community. Their options are the dole, moving to Australia or joining the `big suck' to Auckland,” he said.
Last week New Zealand Post announced 73 jobs would be lost when it closed its Dunedin mail centre next year, along with a few more jobs in the Otago region.
Late last week, Wickliffe announced that 10 of its staff might lose their jobs as a further shift was made to digital production.
Then, the Dunedin City Council-said it would axe a further 77 staff - 41 in Dunedin, 20 in Central Otago and 16 in Southland. Last month, Delta announced 40 staff would be cut with closure of its Christchurch civil construction business.
The Otago Chamber of Commerce, trade unions and Dunedin Labour MPs had accused the Government of ignoring facilities and services that would be available for expansion in Dunedin rather than closing everything down and shifting it north.
Asked what he would do to help save jobs in regions such as Otago, and centres like Dunedin, David Shearer said Labour would take everything on a case-by-case basis.
That would include Dunedin making a case for retaining a South Island mail centre ahead of Christchurch.
He was committed to keeping industry in regions, and centres like Dunedin, because it provided such a valuable knock-on effect throughout the communities.
Hillside workshops had lost contracts because the Government adopted a short-term cost mentality without looking at the wider community effects of those jobs being lost when the workshops closed, Shearer said.
“The Government has not considered the overall economic benefit to the region by giving the contracts to Hillside. The cost may have been slightly higher at the start but you get benefit from keeping the jobs in the community, tax benefits, the removal of the need to provide the unemployment benefits and the associated health benefits having work provides."
An example was the $1.5 billion the IRD was to spend on a new computer system over the next few years, Shearer said.

The way the contract rules had been written, it was likely an overseas technology provider would be selected on the basis of cheapest short-term price.
The Government should be looking at how New Zealand companies could benefit from the project, growing their size sufficiently to become exporters.
He said working with the Government on the IRD project would provide a reputation overseas that Kiwi firms could match the best in the world.

*Dene Mackenzie is political and business editor of the Otago Daily Times. (NZResources)

craic
08-07-2013, 06:37 AM
And I suppose that Labour will subsidise the transport and other major costs of bringing the goods and services from the wilds of the southern South Island to the consumers in the North Island? Maybe they will rebuild the railways? Shearers logic is as wooly as Shrek.

elZorro
08-07-2013, 06:47 AM
And I suppose that Labour will subsidise the transport and other major costs of bringing the goods and services from the wilds of the southern South Island to the consumers in the North Island? Maybe they will rebuild the railways? Shearer's logic is as woolly as Shrek.

Railway services look like the place to be at the moment. Auckland's keen, and the main trunk line is getting new concrete sleepers at Ngaruawahia by the look of it.

A watchdog is about to take a closer look at National's "big boy network" Private Growth Partnership schemes. Minimum investment for 50% taxpayer co-funding is $500,000. A lot of cash is going into these areas, and as per usual, not much to show for it. That's because the lean and agile small business sector has been shut out of the opportunities, by and large.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10895088

iceman
09-07-2013, 07:42 AM
What a difference between our busy Government Ministers making a real difference and the Opposition Leader running away and hiding from the media and his own party !!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10895505

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10895644

elZorro
09-07-2013, 10:12 AM
Yes, I admit having a hard-line approach has worked in dropping some off one type of benefit, at least. I do wonder where, if our net population is increasing, but the number of jobs is static or dropping, they are all going for employment.

The strict proportional MP rule idea from Labour has been dropped. They'll leave the targets in place.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10895712

zigzag
09-07-2013, 02:55 PM
Labour MPs don't know if they're Arthor or Martha. Someone should buy Shearer a pretty frock.

Major von Tempsky
10-07-2013, 08:02 AM
I'm very angry about these Shearer leadership coup rumours - Shearer is a shoo-in to lose the next election to National and therefore I would be very disappointed to see him replaced by someone more effective :-(

um, is there anyone effective in the Labour caucus.....

fungus pudding
10-07-2013, 08:27 AM
I'm very angry about these Shearer leadership coup rumours - Shearer is a shoo-in to lose the next election to National and therefore I would be very disappointed to see him replaced by someone more effective :-(

um, is there anyone effective in the Labour caucus.....

Annette Clark is reasonably capable. There's a couple of others, but they are males, and after Goff and Shearer it's wouldn't be fair to the quota to elect another male.

craic
10-07-2013, 08:45 AM
They must have a half-and-half in there somewhere? Now wouldn't that cover all the bases.

fungus pudding
10-07-2013, 08:52 AM
They must have a half-and-half in there somewhere? Now wouldn't that cover all the bases.

That would slant towards male - definitely time for the next two leaders to be 100% female. By the third one the tables will be even allowing for a 50/50 model; so by the 2014 election they could have a half and half leader. Well done - good suggestion.

janner
10-07-2013, 11:03 AM
I'm very angry about these Shearer leadership coup rumours - Shearer is a shoo-in to lose the next election to National and therefore I would be very disappointed to see him replaced by someone more effective :-(

um, is there anyone effective in the Labour caucus.....

Have mentioned this before..

Unfortunately for National, David Shearer does not have the stamina to last until the next election...

zigzag
10-07-2013, 07:27 PM
If Labour wants a woman to be leader, they should be thinking along the lines of Yingluck Shinawatra from Thailand. Then I might even consider voting for them.

elZorro
10-07-2013, 07:32 PM
Sounds like National has been very lucky, or very organised, to have some of the heat taken off the proposed Sky City legislation for more gaming equipment.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8898699/More-rumours-about-Shearer-leadership

If it wasn't Labour MPs, who started the rumours?

It will take one rogue National MP to scuttle the infamous Sky City deal at the first reading. Where's someone with the integrity of Marilyn Waring?

Major von Tempsky
11-07-2013, 06:45 PM
As in Australia with Gillard/Rudd....how do prove there isn't a letter circulating....

janner
11-07-2013, 06:55 PM
EZ. Face it .. David Shearer is a nice man.. But the Liabour Party needs a GOOD MAN..

They have difficulty finding a MAN.. let alone a GOOD one..

elZorro
11-07-2013, 07:32 PM
Not like National, is it Janner. Bill English tried the old mantra out on a business conference recently.

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/f9ed0264/english-defends-government-record-in-bridging-inequality-gap.html

It's a shocker - 12% of taxpayers pay a lot of the income tax effectively. I guess most of those paying won't include many farmers on average, and based on the startling new car sales and winter holidays going on, they have sorted out how the tax issue from a high milk payout this season is to be dealt with.

Of course the rest of the population pay the bulk of the GST, the excise taxes, the PAYE, the rent to landlords etc, and they don't have much in the way of untaxed capital gains to defray it with.

It's all tucked away in the tax figures somewhere, if you think about it.

iceman
11-07-2013, 09:11 PM
It's a shocker - 12% of taxpayers pay a lot of the income tax effectively. I guess most of those paying won't include many farmers on average, and based on the startling new car sales and winter holidays going on, they have sorted out how the tax issue from a high milk payout this season is to be dealt with.


Yes this is the redistribution society we live in EZ. Money milked from the upper middle class and distributed to those lower down in a big way. 75% of NZ "taxpayers" are in fact net beneficiaries of the state with the lowest 45% receiving $4 for every $1 they contribute. Maybe those advocating even more redistribution should consider that before they open their gob next time.

With regard to Labour leadership, it is clear that Shearer is not their future Leader and only a matter of time before he is rolled. Maybe they need a strong WIT (woman in trousers) like Clark but more likely the next Leader will come from the rainbow faction. I suppose it he/she would then be a half-WIT, which of course is entirely appropriate to run that motley crew.

elZorro
11-07-2013, 10:33 PM
Yes this is the redistribution society we live in EZ. Money milked from the upper middle class and distributed to those lower down in a big way. 75% of NZ "taxpayers" are in fact net beneficiaries of the state with the lowest 45% receiving $4 for every $1 they contribute. Maybe those advocating even more redistribution should consider that before they open their gob next time.

With regard to Labour leadership, it is clear that Shearer is not their future Leader and only a matter of time before he is rolled. Maybe they need a strong WIT (woman in trousers) like Clark but more likely the next Leader will come from the rainbow faction. I suppose it he/she would then be a half-WIT, which of course is entirely appropriate to run that motley crew.

Very good banter there Iceman, but I think you misread my sarcastic tone at the start.

There might be some high earners who are a bit stuck having to pay some income tax, the ones who are either straight up the line, are employed, or who have not used tax accountants. You and I both know that income tax is only a portion of total taxes and income received by the govt, and that a lot of other effective tax is paid for by anyone who buys goods and services, fuel, tobacco, power, gas, etc. This is everybody, including those on benefits. I've done the numbers further up in this thread. National likes to try and fool the public with this data every few months.

If there were no inequities, farmers as a group (for example) would be paying a higher share of the income taxes. They pay hardly any while farming, as the interest on their loans, some of which covers housing and vehicles, generally matches the operational profits. The capital gain on the land is tax free at the end of the cycle.

So yes, farmers might be contributors to a major home-grown export base, but a lot of their discretionary annual spending is on foreign goods like tractors, (perhaps PKE), cars, some being large capital items that can smooth out tax issues. I contend that the National policy of no capital gain taxes simply allows this process to continue. If all businesses and individuals were instead encouraged to focus more on operational profits each year as a way of building wealth, we would see a better GDP per capita growth, and that has eluded us in the last generation or so. Business growth would also employ more people, so the tax base would be increased, making it easier for all.

Labour's policies are aimed at this approach, and I think they would work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/8907754/Ideological-debate-stalks-labour-market

Major von Tempsky
12-07-2013, 08:45 AM
The problem is that Helen Clark's grand strategy has been too successful.
Her secret aim was to make everyone in NZ a state beneficiary in one form or another so she could play on this in various ways to make them beholden to, and voting, Labour.
We must all strive to achieve our independence and knock that strategy for six.

elZorro
12-07-2013, 09:08 AM
The problem is that Helen Clark's grand strategy has been too successful.
Her secret aim was to make everyone in NZ a state beneficiary in one form or another so she could play on this in various ways to make them beholden to, and voting, Labour.
We must all strive to achieve our independence and knock that strategy for six.

That is rubbish MVT, the idea is to bring everyone up, not bring everyone down. So Labour's policy, and Helen Clark's philosophy, is exactly the opposite of what you are thinking. Can you advise how all of us can get very rich at the same time? Or is it just a few in the top percentile that deserve to get ahead?

MVT and/or FP, what do you think of this article by Brian Fallow?:cool:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10896444

iceman
13-07-2013, 07:43 AM
Sounds like National has been very lucky, or very organised, to have some of the heat taken off the proposed Sky City legislation for more gaming equipment.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8898699/More-rumours-about-Shearer-leadership

If it wasn't Labour MPs, who started the rumours?

It will take one rogue National MP to scuttle the infamous Sky City deal at the first reading. Where's someone with the integrity of Marilyn Waring?

Or just very clever to get this done EZ. John Roughan sums it up perfectly and I agree with it 100%. What is your objection to the Sky City deal ?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10897465

elZorro
13-07-2013, 08:49 AM
Or just very clever to get this done EZ. John Roughan sums it up perfectly and I agree with it 100%. What is your objection to the Sky City deal ?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10897465

1. Due process was not followed in the screening down to one bidder. John Key abused his powers of office.
2. The sinking lid on local venue gaming machines already will be helping Sky City, who have not reduced their machines or tables. Now they get to increase their machines and tables.
3. Of course Sky City are likely to make a profit on the convention centre operation, they have their own accommodation and the expanded casino ready at hand.
4. They are not likely to offer the public any special deals for concerts, it'll be strictly commercial.
5. A casino pays a very small percentage of its takings back to the community, whereas local venues like pubs have to pay over 30%. That's a huge difference, when it comes to making money out of gamblers' misery. The money goes out of the local community, and it stays out.

craic
13-07-2013, 01:27 PM
Gamblers gamble just as alcoholics drink. If you close half the alcohol outlets in NZ it may reduce alcohol consumption but it will not affect alcoholics - they will continue to be alcoholics and to drink. If you shut down half the pokie machines in NZ you may reduce the amount of money going through the machines but the gamblers will continue to gamble in that manner or some other.

neopoleII
13-07-2013, 06:10 PM
well said craic...... NZ politics is going down the toilet.
you would of thought that with the advent of the internet and mass media more folks would learn to see the crap coming from our beehive..... but alas our nation is being dumbed down.
the missus and me are on a big mission to close our investment webs and consolidate all our funds and live on what we have without interference from current and future political influences.
we see not to good times ahead.

elZorro
13-07-2013, 06:56 PM
Gamblers gamble just as alcoholics drink. If you close half the alcohol outlets in NZ it may reduce alcohol consumption but it will not affect alcoholics - they will continue to be alcoholics and to drink. If you shut down half the pokie machines in NZ you may reduce the amount of money going through the machines but the gamblers will continue to gamble in that manner or some other.

Maybe it's a fundamental way of looking at the world, but I think some/all people need to be saved from themselves. In that we'll be lazy, easily led, given the chance. Your argument falls very flat when you look at the fundamental change happening in NZ regarding cigarette smoking. It has taken state intervention to get that moving. And I hope it keeps moving in the same direction.

My favourite school teacher, a regular smoker, looked around the class one day and said to us "My advice to you all is, just don't start smoking". I heard from one of his colleagues recently, that he did die early, from a bad cancer.

So that's what I see as the issue here - more pokies, more people going in with mates, more chances of them getting hooked. There are some businesses that you should never invest in, if you want to lie straight in bed. Sky City could be one of them.

craic
13-07-2013, 08:34 PM
So now we close the 42 reported fast food outlets in Queen Street because people need to be protected from themselves? That's left-wing social engineering at its finest.

iceman
13-07-2013, 09:02 PM
Maybe it's a fundamental way of looking at the world, but I think some/all people need to be saved from themselves. In that we'll be lazy, easily led, given the chance. Your argument falls very flat when you look at the fundamental change happening in NZ regarding cigarette smoking. It has taken state intervention to get that moving. And I hope it keeps moving in the same direction.

My favourite school teacher, a regular smoker, looked around the class one day and said to us "My advice to you all is, just don't start smoking". I heard from one of his colleagues recently, that he did die early, from a bad cancer.

So that's what I see as the issue here - more pokies, more people going in with mates, more chances of them getting hooked. There are some businesses that you should never invest in, if you want to lie straight in bed. Sky City could be one of them.

Fair enough EZ. You have outlined your concerns. I wonder if you had these same concerns when Helen Clark made an almost identical deal mwith Sky City a few years back ? Needless to say, I don´t share any of your concerns. I thyink you need to take a deep breath EZ and smell the roses. We live in a wonderful country that is doing OK.

I think you have diverted too far in comparing cigarette smoking, where all users are harmed to some degree, with gambling. A very small proportion of gamblers are " harmed" by it. Most do it for fun and recreations, which thankfully is still allowed in NZ.
Craic has summed it up correctly, banning the masses to have a bit of fun to unsuccessfully try to protect the few from themselves, will never worke.

slimwin
13-07-2013, 09:10 PM
Yep,cost me $40 last night at the casino. Second time i've been there this year. Put off for another six months now. All my gambling now is done with NWE and TTE!

elZorro
13-07-2013, 09:13 PM
So now we close the 42 reported fast food outlets in Queen Street because people need to be protected from themselves? That's left-wing social engineering at its finest.

I didn't mention food, Craic. (Must be profitable though, if they can all afford to rent in Queen St). I thought we'd already covered food in schools, that would be one good place to showcase sensible eating habits. I'm not just trying to get a bite here. Right from the first days of the Big Mac in NZ, people were buying two of them at once. There should be a law against that :p

fungus pudding
14-07-2013, 06:35 AM
Yep,cost me $40 last night at the casino. Second time i've been there this year. Put off for another six months now. All my gambling now is done with NWE and TTE!

You are in danger! Obviously you will go far more often when they have more pokies.

elZorro
14-07-2013, 09:06 AM
Come on FP, what about some facts. Half of the income made by the Sky Casino comes from problem gamblers. Slimwin lost $40 in there, that's just an entertainment cost for one person, of course that's not an issue. A much smaller proportion of the people that go in there, lose a lot more.

Q&A started off slowly this morning, then moved into a big discourse about income inequality in NZ. It had Bill English squirming, although he handled it a lot better than someone less proficient in front of the camera (even John Key). All the myths about 'trickle down' were exposed, the effect of QE overseas in boosting the stock markets (Prof Robert Wade from the London School of Economics). About policies being drafted by the top 1%, mostly helping to move income even more towards the top 1%. I have come to this conclusion already, and it looked to me like most of the watching public had a few bells going off in their heads.

All the comments streaming in from texts, affirmed the inequality going on.

If Labour can just simply encapsulate this sort of stuff in the leadup to the 2014 elections, National will have a huge task in staying on. 'The Nation' covered David Shearer a lot, and it's true he's looked quite shaky at times this week. Perhaps he does need a new team and some more coaching, but he'll never be as aggressive as the likes of Muldoon - maybe that's a good thing. A statesman is what we want to see. I'm sure there is enough wrong with the way the country is being run at the moment, for a Labour statesman to emerge.

Iceman, here's an interesting chart about pokie numbers that mentions the Labour deal (http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/chart-of-day-15-may-2013.html). At the time, every pub in the country was looking hard at getting in a gaming cluster, because without one, profits were generally low. Rental fee income from the machines helped keep struggling pubs going, but it also meant wider hours of business, and it did remove 2/3 of the gambling losses from that local community. 37% at least, went back to local charities. Sky City's feedback to the community is just 2.5%.
(http://www.3news.co.nz/Lotto-worse-than-pokies---SkyCity-boss/tabid/423/articleID/250657/Default.aspx)
National has carefully not exceeded the 230 pokie machines that Labour allowed years ago, but they have added in a lot of gambling tables. Maybe these are even more profitable for Sky City. It was Labour policy that started the sinking lid on pokie machines in local venues.

craic
14-07-2013, 12:24 PM
There are several reasons why Professor Wade of the London School of Economics holds his present position and is not one of the richest men in the world or is not sailing around the Islands in his boat or some other nice place. The most likely is that he is a teacher and.....those that can, do etc.......
There are experts by the dozen out there and they can tell you the solution to any problem - but the soution seldom works, and another expert will tell you exactly why it didn't work and so on. A selection of these experts make it into Government and stuff up big time. At least John Key made his fortune on the markets before he went up onto the hill. I would say that he has a more realistic view of the market place that we are all in - and I would also say that, had the Labour party been in power, exactly the same deal would have been made with Sky City.

elZorro
14-07-2013, 04:48 PM
There are several reasons why Professor Wade of the London School of Economics holds his present position and is not one of the richest men in the world or is not sailing around the Islands in his boat or some other nice place. The most likely is that he is a teacher and.....those that can, do etc.......
There are experts by the dozen out there and they can tell you the solution to any problem - but the soution seldom works, and another expert will tell you exactly why it didn't work and so on. A selection of these experts make it into Government and stuff up big time. At least John Key made his fortune on the markets before he went up onto the hill. I would say that he has a more realistic view of the market place that we are all in - and I would also say that, had the Labour party been in power, exactly the same deal would have been made with Sky City.

The same deal? I don't think so. It looks to me like the Labour government saw the effects of the rampaging pokie machine numbers sometime around 2003-2004, and passed a law to sort it out. I'm not from Auckland, and I haven't been into the current Sky City Convention Centre. It can hold over 1,000 people on each of two floors. There is quite a lot of flexibility in the layout. It's also integral with their accommodation and the casino. The new convention centre is apparently a lot bigger, it can hold... 3500 people at maximum. It will be across a street, using an interconnecting bridge.

I've never looked into it before, but does this mean the older convention centre will be changed into something else, and all those jobs disappear, meaning that the new permanent jobs might only be a few more than the status quo? And will Sky City convert the older space into cost-effective hotel rooms?

As for your disparaging remarks about teachers, that's uncalled for Craic. I tried tertiary tutoring once, it was really hard work. A tutor I knew, who was well thought of, left and worked in a local business, R&D section. It's now employing 80 staff here and overseas, exporting furiously.

Right-wingers eh? It's all black and white as far as they're concerned.

slimwin
14-07-2013, 07:11 PM
I only saw q&a in fit and starts(i'm a solo dad with a three year old). Didn't Wade say QE was a bad thing as all it did was make the rich richer? Presenter got a laugh out of that considering our most left party was pushing for it.

craic
14-07-2013, 07:18 PM
I have three reasons for disparaging teachers. The teacher who told me that my son was in "the bottom 5% in NZ in his ability to learn" and the next teacher who would not have him in the electronics class because his maths etc was not up to scratch. Fortunately, he had parents wise enough to let him leave from Form IV to go into electronics. From a full trade qualification, he went on to and Honours Degree from London University and employment at the top of his profession. His elder sister was denied University Entrance and had to sit the exams. She now owns a multi-million business in London The third is doing well too. I have several friends who are or were teachers but the problem is that they are so used to pupils that they are either instructing or standing for parliment - and some even get elected.

elZorro
14-07-2013, 07:31 PM
I only saw q&a in fit and starts(i'm a solo dad with a three year old). Didn't Wade say QE was a bad thing as all it did was make the rich richer? Presenter got a laugh out of that considering our most left party was pushing for it.

It was a bit of a rushed synopsis that he made, but that was the gist of it. Of course the secondary effect would be that businesses held up better and more would continue to be employed, softening a hard landing.

I think the Greens suggested that a range of policies could be tried here, which were intended to have the effect of dropping the value of the NZ dollar. I read somewhere, that we have no real need to pay taxes, sending a portion of our income to the government. The government can always print any money it needs. But paying taxes and borrowing money for a budget shortfall, values the currency, that is the main reason for it. Stops runaway inflation I guess. Although if that was really a likely outcome, why hasn't it happened noticeably in the USA yet? The US dollar has strengthened, it's not helping to reduce their state borrowing interest overheads.

iceman
14-07-2013, 08:11 PM
Thanks for the links EZ. Unfortunately I am very limited doing research/reading as I am off Cape Horn (in crap weather) and internet very very slow. So will leave the debating with you to the other Centrists (Craic, slimwin,FP, MTV etc etc) that are doing a grea job !
****e we don´t even have drinks, pokies or women down here. Or like the boys say, no twosomes, threesomes or foursomes, only handsomes down here. Pretty sad all around :)

elZorro
14-07-2013, 09:05 PM
Thanks for the links EZ. Unfortunately I am very limited doing research/reading as I am off Cape Horn (in crap weather) and internet very very slow. So will leave the debating with you to the other Centrists (Craic, slimwin,FP, MTV etc etc) that are doing a grea job !
****e we don´t even have drinks, pokies or women down here. Or like the boys say, no twosomes, threesomes or foursomes, only handsomes down here. Pretty sad all around :)

I guess you're living up to your moniker, Iceman. I thought you guys were giving up on Argentina?

iceman
14-07-2013, 10:34 PM
I guess you're living up to your moniker, Iceman. I thought you guys were giving up on Argentina?

No not at all. Sealord has pulled the plug though. Its tough but we intend to be here on the other side of the economic/currency collapse that will happen here in the near future. It can not happen soon enough !

Major von Tempsky
15-07-2013, 07:55 AM
It's funny how teachers think the education system belongs to them and not to the elected government, the taxpayers and parents.

It's funny how teachers use young kids as ventriloquist's dummies and to hold aggressive signs during their demonstrations and strikes.

Its funny how the teachers are much more unionized than any other section of society.

Its funny how teachers, State school teachers anyway, are just about 100% Labour supporters/paid up members.

The old adage - those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

westerly
15-07-2013, 07:25 PM
Thanks for the links EZ. Unfortunately I am very limited doing research/reading as I am off Cape Horn (in crap weather) and internet very very slow. So will leave the debating with you to the other Centrists (Craic, slimwin,FP, MTV etc etc) that are doing a grea job !
****e we don´t even have drinks, pokies or women down here. Or like the boys say, no twosomes, threesomes or foursomes, only handsomes down here. Pretty sad all around :)

Simon Lusk the supposedly discredited National Party mystery man said " the blogosphere and media are controlled by the Right. " His far right views seem to coincide with some of the self proclaimed centre right posters here.
The reduced power of the unions, the reduction in worker rights and the continual push for lower taxes, all policies of the neo right and the continual discrediting
of the left by most media is present day NZ
NZ needs a strong Labour Party to offer effective opposition to National. If that does not happen civil unrest will inevitably occur.

Westerly

elZorro
16-07-2013, 06:59 AM
I hadn't really thought of it like that Westerly, but certainly the web has a lot of right-wing blogs. The press are generally a bit more even-handed, and the SST has possibly more leftish commentators than some other papers.

Bill English didn't like some of Prof Wade's words, and I think that's because they were powerful in their simplicity. Of course the idea that 1% of the populace benefit the most from those already in the top 1% setting the rules, is a matter of opinion. But the underlying stats that we can all get our hands on, shows that in general, this is happening. At an increasing rate.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8922076/English-rebukes-visiting-academic

elZorro
23-07-2013, 08:53 AM
Robbing Kiwisaver accounts to buy your first home - OK in theory, but loosening the rules and bringing it to everyone's attention only says that National is quietly pleased about rampant house inflation, at least in the short term.


http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/65498/opinion-government-happily-setting-out-subvert-purpose-kiwisaver-scheme-its-own-short-

CJ
23-07-2013, 09:00 AM
Robbing Kiwisaver accounts to buy your first home - OK in theory, but loosening the rules and bringing it to everyone's attention only says that National is quietly pleased about rampant house inflation, at least in the short term.


http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/65498/opinion-government-happily-setting-out-subvert-purpose-kiwisaver-scheme-its-own-short-Stupid in my opinion. Kiwisaver was set up in part to increase kiwis investments and move them away from property investment. The thresholds were set low for a reason. A bit of indexing may be justified but I dont like the idea of giving handouts to 6 figure income households - that is just wrong.

craic
23-07-2013, 12:20 PM
Probably never for several reasons. People invest inside NZ because of the absence of the capital gains tax - introduce it and you remove the incentive both from local and from overseas investors. If you introduce capital gains tax you also have a capital loss to claim against income. Farmers may not be able to pass on their assets to their offspring without a massive tax unless you make specific exclusions in the law and this govt. does not like specific exclusions - what else would you have to exclude? Another factor against CGT is the cost administration and enforcement and that includes all sorts of quasi-criminal actions trying to get umpteen millions from bankrupt individuals. Key likes to keep things simple and GST is the simplest and most effective of all. And I don't think that you have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a change of government next year. It matters little to me, who is on the hill but if Labour persist with their current leader they would need something extrordinary to happen to have any chance.

elZorro
23-07-2013, 06:00 PM
Probably never for several reasons. People invest inside NZ because of the absence of the capital gains tax - introduce it and you remove the incentive both from local and from overseas investors. If you introduce capital gains tax you also have a capital loss to claim against income. Farmers may not be able to pass on their assets to their offspring without a massive tax unless you make specific exclusions in the law and this govt. does not like specific exclusions - what else would you have to exclude? Another factor against CGT is the cost administration and enforcement and that includes all sorts of quasi-criminal actions trying to get umpteen millions from bankrupt individuals. Key likes to keep things simple and GST is the simplest and most effective of all. And I don't think that you have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a change of government next year. It matters little to me, who is on the hill but if Labour persist with their current leader they would need something extrordinary to happen to have any chance.

Craic, opinions like yours are why I keep posting.. for instance, the poor average farmer, who has strenuously avoided paying much income tax on average (it's there in the figures) all their working life, then should get to keep all the capital gain as well, and not have to pay tax at the end of the cycle? In other words, other employed people can pay for the infrastructure of NZ. It's not as if they are massive employers or trainers of skilled staff either.

I don't care how hard it makes the annual tax returns, other countries do it, CGT has to be done here. Or else manufacturing, jobs and smart businesses won't get the attention they need, in this global economy.

Shearer's office staff has been changed, possibly a good thing, this was predicted in the weekend by either The Nation or Q&A.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8953732/Shearer-senior-staff-shuffles

Winston looks to be putting his party in a camp with Labour and the Greens, and frankly he often talks a lot of sense. I don't know Craic, maybe John Key needs to be setting aside some packing boxes in his office.

craic
23-07-2013, 08:15 PM
EZ Just the other day I pushed a few buttons on my PC and bought a block of shares for a price. I put them back on the market at a higher price. They sold. After costs I am $1,570 better off. I will set aside 30% for tax and still be happy. This is what I do apart from cutting down and chopping up trees in my old age. I was born into abject poverty beyond anything you might imagine but I have learned to survive. Not all the kings horses and all the kings men, including Winston Peters, can't save the Labour Party under Shearer. All your postings and all your wishful thinking will not alter the real world. Personally I don't give a stuff about who wins the next election - I will be fine either way. John Key will be fine either way.

elZorro
23-07-2013, 08:59 PM
Good one Craic, great to see some top share timing. I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I'll be talking to my accountant about shares tomorrow. It's just that the stats show certain patterns that are best to be heeded if we're going to move on as a country.

Labour's Jacinda Ardern has been noting for several months that while the info swapping in govt departments has spotted about $39mill annually in benefit fraud and overpayments, the likely amount of tax fraud is in the region of $1bill to $6bill, up to 150 times more, which would be around 10% of the normal tax income of the govt. This includes the black economy, every no-sale on a till, cash jobs, etc. A poll running on a website shows that most NZers think both fraud areas should be followed up equally.

It looks to me like 100x more effort needs to go into tax compliance, than into benefit fraud. In the meantime, beneficiary bashing by National MPs when the odd fraud issue shows up, is hypocritical.

Winston said in the weekend that he likes David Shearer, thinks he's competent. He didn't have a bad word to say there.

John Key will need to prove to the less affluent people in NZ, of whom there are many, that National will deliver some real improvements in the next term. So far it's only smoke and mirrors.

craic
23-07-2013, 10:23 PM
The black economy will always exist and those who profit from it will always pay tax in the form of GST. If I want a load of builders mix, I can ring up and ask a company to deliver it but I will have to wait in a queue - maybe several days. Cash and I will have it today. Same with a range of trades and a bottle of rum or bourbon sweetens the deal and costs me eight or nine dollars. I have more money to spend that way and I pay GST on that money. I don't know if you see where I am coming from or not but a SIMPLE tax system is the most effective for all. I got half my driveway rebuilt after a storm washed it out last year for a couple of bottles of bourbon by a couple of guys with a truck and a digger, guys I have never seen before or since. The small fortune that I saved was spent elsewhere with the taxman taking his share. Tax gathering, from perceived fraudsters is a very expensive business that requires an army of public servants, who, in many cases, are too naive to keep up with the rogues. I believe in the biblical advice "give unto Caesar that which is ...........etc. I always have the records to show that my taxes are paid.

artemis
24-07-2013, 04:56 AM
........ Labour's Jacinda Ardern has been noting for several months that while the info swapping in govt departments has spotted about $39mill annually in benefit fraud and overpayments, the likely amount of tax fraud is in the region of $1bill to $6bill, up to 150 times more, which would be around 10% of the normal tax income of the govt...................

elZorro, you are comparing frogs with pears in saying that 100 x more effort should go to tax compliance than benefit compliance. The benefit fraud you mention is just annual projected based on 6 months data matching between WINZ and IRD. There are many types of other benefit fraud, such as not declaring a partner, undeclared cash income (legal or not). And other ways to obtain government assistance by incorrectly declaring income or circumstances. (For example, we recently saw a Housing NZ tenant evicted from a v valuable house in Auckland with income-related rent recalculated from the beginning of the tenancy leaving a 6 figure debt.)

Large amounts of resource go into tracking down both benefit fraud and underpayment of tax.

craic
24-07-2013, 06:00 AM
He had a full head of grey hair, a rather slow walk and a ready smile for all those who noted his RSA blazer and silently acknowledged an old man who had gone to war for his country. When he came to me, he had just been through Court and conviced for benefit fraud. He presented at Social Welfare (in those days) with his landlady, whom he declared to be his wife and claimed a married rate of pension. It took eight years for the department to twig that he was single. Most of his income went across the RSA bar. The closest he got to overseas service was Wellington. He was sprung when the department insisted that married couples on benefits or pensions should have seperate payments to seperate accounts. He died years ago.

elZorro
24-07-2013, 06:35 AM
A couple of great stories there Craic. But that first one about the driveway repairs has me perplexed.

Long after the bourbon had been quaffed, those two guys would have been getting some sort of a hazy idea that their fuel costs, opportunity costs, maintenance costs, and equipment finance costs had not been met on that particular job. By now, unless they are in Christchurch perhaps, they'll be sitting idle for most of the time, along with many other owners of diggers and trucks, looking for work. Yards are full of second-hand diggers.

You didn't help out the economy of NZ there, you took advantage of some guys keen to show they could do something useful with their roading equipment (if it was theirs). You've recently advised us all that you have your eye in, enough to make a quick sharemarket profit. In theory, you could have afforded to ask for quotes and get the driveway job done through the normal system. What happens after that is not in your control I know, based on the number of docket book invoices without a GST number (or even an address) that I've been given by casual contractors.

If enough of this sort of behaviour goes on, the business cashflow weakens to the point that the operation falls over, down the track another one replaces it with a cheaper set of gear, and the same happens. The businesses don't evolve, grow, or start exporting anything. The whole failed system stays here in NZ.

Is this what John Key and his team are wanting? Cheap cash/contra deals for those with property, wage rates and prices clamped using high unemployment, no capital gains taxes, low income taxes at the top end, the super at age 65 locked in place, guaranteed capital growth from relatively non-productive assets like housing.

It's not what I'm hoping for, we can do better than that.

I've just noticed that the govt has a discussion paper out, for tax concessions on R&D. This is in response to the canned Labour R&D tax credits, which Labour will certainly bring back in, if they are elected in 2014.

Given the potential cash grants of up to $500,000 per company per year, I can see they'll be limiting the number of companies who get to apply. I would think it's mainly aimed again, at the big businesses, those strongly export focussed already and with large turnovers. It won't be aimed at SMEs, and software writing, trials, final stage work is not to be covered. In any case, this is still a discussion, aimed at getting votes for 2014. The sort of policy you have when you don't have a real R&D policy.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/correct-govt-dangles-half-million-dollar-r-and-d-tax-concessions-bd-143246

iceman
24-07-2013, 07:10 AM
Stupid in my opinion. Kiwisaver was set up in part to increase kiwis investments and move them away from property investment. The thresholds were set low for a reason. A bit of indexing may be justified but I dont like the idea of giving handouts to 6 figure income households - that is just wrong.

But isn't that exactly what Kiwisaver is CJ, a Government handout to all and sundry. Start with $1000 kickstart and over $ 1,000 annually which has now been cut to $540 or something. Quite a substantial annual amount in Government handouts is it not ?
I do not agree with forcing our young people to save into their Kiwisaver for retirement while at the same time the RB implementing policies that will make it near impossible to buy a home to live in. It is arse about face in my view

fungus pudding
24-07-2013, 07:36 AM
But isn't that exactly what Kiwisaver is CJ, a Government handout to all and sundry. Start with $1000 kickstart and over $ 1,000 annually which has now been cut to $540 or something. Quite a substantial annual amount in Government handouts is it not ?
I do not agree with forcing our young people to save into their Kiwisaver for retirement while at the same time the RB implementing policies that will make it near impossible to buy a home to live in. It is arse about face in my view

The $1000 kick-start is the only hand-out. The annual govt. top-up is only available if sufficient tax has been paid by the individual, so it's a tax reduction for the kiwisaver member rather than a general hand-out. .

CJ
24-07-2013, 08:12 AM
The $1000 kick-start is the only hand-out. The annual govt. top-up is only available if sufficient tax has been paid by the individual, so it's a tax reduction for the kiwisaver member rather than a general hand-out. .Not so. My wife doesn't pay any tax (not last year while off on maternity leave) so I contributed $1k to her fund and she got the $500 top up. The top up doesn't require your contributions to be from wages.

I am conflicted on this one. I hate compulsion but I also think super will be means tested before I get there. As such, I think people should save for their retirement if they are able so maybe compulsion is necessary?? If you have compulsion, then you dont need the govt bribes as they will pick up the tab at the end anyway if you haven't saved enough.

Re Housing, in Auckland at least the issue is supply. I dont like restrictions either but maybe Non residents should not be allowed to buy more than one existing homes. Anything after that has to be a new build. Likewise, any government hand out to first home buyers in Auckland should be for new builds.

iceman
24-07-2013, 08:21 AM
Not so. My wife doesn't pay any tax (not last year while off on maternity leave) so I contributed $1k to her fund and she got the $500 top up. The top up doesn't require your contributions to be from wages.

I am conflicted on this one. I hate compulsion but I also think super will be means tested before I get there. As such, I think people should save for their retirement if they are able so maybe compulsion is necessary?? If you have compulsion, then you dont need the govt bribes as they will pick up the tab at the end anyway if you haven't saved enough.

Re Housing, in Auckland at least the issue is supply. I dont like restrictions either but maybe Non residents should not be allowed to buy more than one existing homes. Anything after that has to be a new build. Likewise, any government hand out to first home buyers in Auckland should be for new builds.

I am a bit conflicted too CJ, similar to you. I don't think the Government should be nor is intending to give handouts to first home buyers. They are simply saying maybe it is a good idea with the new restrictions coming requiring higher deposits, to let first home buyers access their own money in Kiwisaver to use as part of the deposit. Otherwise young first home buyers will be locked out of the housing market. I agree with this idea for first home buyers. We are not talking about speculators here.
I am recommending my 2 teenage daughters make maximum contributions, because I know they can access Kiwisaver for a first home deposit. If that was not an option, I would recommend they make minimum contributions and save into a different account for a deposit on a home.

fungus pudding
24-07-2013, 08:33 AM
Not so. My wife doesn't pay any tax (not last year while off on maternity leave) so I contributed $1k to her fund and she got the $500 top up. The top up doesn't require your contributions to be from wages.


You are quite right. My apologies, I had it in the back of my head it only applied to earners, but all contributors get it.

POSSUM THE CAT
24-07-2013, 09:03 AM
What happens when you want to sell your house and cannot. Of course you bring the price down. When I bought my first house (unless you qualified for a state advances loan) you had to have at least 40% deposit. But houses were a hell of a lot cheaper. So make the deposit even higher than 20%

craic
24-07-2013, 09:40 AM
EZ the two guys on their machines had spent hours cleaning up a mess on the road caused by the downpour. I suggested that, rather than travel miles to somewhere to dump the material they could dump it on my drive, right beside them - I have a tractor and grader blade but they wouldnt know that. That was what the bourbon was for - dumping it on my drive, but the guy on the digger did a great job of spreading and compacting it. All this took just a few minutes and they were gone when I went back down. Maybe it wasted half-a-cent of everyones rates in the district. The money I saved was spent on other things, contributing to employment and the general economy and was taxed at the current GST rates.

CJ
24-07-2013, 09:44 AM
They are simply saying maybe it is a good idea with the new restrictions coming requiring higher deposits, to let first home buyers access their own money in Kiwisaver to use as part of the deposit. I believe any first home buyer can get out their and their employers contribution for a purchase (not the governments contribution). The 'limits' only apply to an extra $5k gift from the Govt. (I am not sure if you fall within the limits, you can also take out the govt contributions?).

elZorro
24-07-2013, 06:47 PM
EZ the two guys on their machines had spent hours cleaning up a mess on the road caused by the downpour. I suggested that, rather than travel miles to somewhere to dump the material they could dump it on my drive, right beside them - I have a tractor and grader blade but they wouldnt know that. That was what the bourbon was for - dumping it on my drive, but the guy on the digger did a great job of spreading and compacting it. All this took just a few minutes and they were gone when I went back down. Maybe it wasted half-a-cent of everyones rates in the district. The money I saved was spent on other things, contributing to employment and the general economy and was taxed at the current GST rates.

Hi Craic, that's quite different, I don't see an issue with that. You probably saved them a lot of transport costs, so it was a sensible transaction.

Regarding cheaper housing, I don't see too much wrong with this message from our leader: :)

Just in case you missed it


Dear [Card-Carrying Labour Supporter]
Yesterday John Key claimed first home buyers were a “priority” (wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000001/!x-usc:http://davidshearer.cmail2.com/t/r-l-btukkdt-dtdydjxu-t/). But after 5 years under National, housing affordability has only got worse. John Key just doesn’t realise how tough it is to scrape together a deposit.

The bottom line is we need to build more houses and deal with property speculators who are driving up prices.

National refuses to get hands-on and build new affordable homes. But we will. We will build 10,000 new affordable homes a year for first home buyers.

National refuses to tackle speculators. But we will. We will introduce a capital gains tax to take the heat out of the market.

Now National is planning to introduce lending limits called loan to value ratios (LVRs) that will make it harder for first home buyers to get a mortgage. We can do better. Labour will exempt first home buyers from LVRs and deal with property speculators first.

Labour understands how important it is to help New Zealanders into their first home. It’s part of my plan to help New Zealanders get ahead and why – unlike John Key – I’ll put first home buyers before property speculators.
http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/wlmailhtml:{859F7BC3-BC06-49EC-89C0-293E8B5037B7}mid://00000001/!x-usc:http://www.labour.org.nz/sites/labour.org.nz/files/shearer-signature_0.jpg
David Shearer
Leader of the Labour Party

iceman
24-07-2013, 08:00 PM
Hi Craic, that's quite different, I don't see an issue with that. You probably saved them a lot of transport costs, so it was a sensible transaction.

Regarding cheaper housing, I don't see too much wrong with this message from our leader: :)


The last line from your Leader is a blatant lie. The independent Reserve Bank is talking about introducing LVRs. So Labour intends to take away its independence and run monetary policy themselves! Thank God this guy will never be a PM

elZorro
24-07-2013, 08:16 PM
The last line from your Leader is a blatant lie. The independent Reserve Bank is talking about introducing LVRs. So Labour intends to take away its independence and run monetary policy themselves! Thank God this guy will never be a PM

Technically you are probably correct, Iceman. But Labour's opinion is that John Key set this likely policy from the Reserve Bank in motion, by being lazy about their policy settings, and not thinking it through.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/07/16/key-handed-loaded-lvr-gun-to-reserve-bank/

craic
25-07-2013, 08:37 AM
Interesting article/comment on line on the TV3 News site about Shearer and surely it must be obvious, even to the most ardent party fan that he is never going to get off the ground as a leader. National has decided that Winstone Peters is no longer the Devil Incarnate and for that reason, the Greens have lost ground. If the TAB are offering any odds around two-two-one-on on a National led government after the next election, I will have a few G,s on it.

elZorro
25-07-2013, 01:47 PM
I partly agree Craic, there is a general theme about comments on David Shearer, regardless of political persuasion.

What does he stand for? What is he enthusiastic about? Is he naturally a bit right-leaning or not? When is he going to let rip with something?

Labour stalwarts want a return to the older party rules and policies, but Shearer is a new breed that has been concerned right from the start with press connections rather than getting in there and doing something practical in his electorate. Or so Chris Trotter reckons, who is becoming vitriolic about Shearer. I think Shearer will need to prove himself pronto, or stand down.

Putting this aside, I still think Labour has some great policies that will do a lot of good for NZ, if they are voted in.

By comparison, John Key is so concerned with becoming one of a few PMs who has served three consecutive terms, that he is even prepared to welcome Winston Peters back into the fold. Just a few short months after he completely ruled this out. The only reason he's changing his tune, is because Winston is likely to again hold the balance of power in 2014.

POSSUM THE CAT
25-07-2013, 03:01 PM
elZorro Key will not get his wish. Winston will demand the job of Prime Minister.

fungus pudding
25-07-2013, 03:18 PM
elZorro Key will not get his wish. Winston will demand the job of Prime Minister.

Minister of anything at all will buy Winston. Baubles are baubles - no point in being fussy. Biggest problem will be keeping him alive until after the election.

neopoleII
25-07-2013, 06:51 PM
one point of note with winston is that he was the only person of power at the time that tried to expose the crap rules and backhanders of the "winebox" fiasco.
and he got punished for it via the media via political maneuvering.
this guy is more honest for NZ than most politicians...... but he has had to sell his soul to stay in the play...... as all pollies have to do.
the big fish hate him for exposing them..... the small fish...... the public...... got sucked in by the BIG media.
compared to norman, shearer, key, helen, english, king, sharple, malard, and all the other bit players....... you have to admit....... he is a statesman.
and the simple fact is.......... he was right in his argument.
but winning an international legal point of view is nothing to being scorned by public media.

elZorro
25-07-2013, 08:07 PM
one point of note with winston is that he was the only person of power at the time that tried to expose the crap rules and backhanders of the "winebox" fiasco.
and he got punished for it via the media via political maneuvering.
this guy is more honest for NZ than most politicians...... but he has had to sell his soul to stay in the play...... as all pollies have to do.
the big fish hate him for exposing them..... the small fish...... the public...... got sucked in by the BIG media.
compared to norman, shearer, key, helen, english, king, sharple, malard, and all the other bit players....... you have to admit....... he is a statesman.
and the simple fact is.......... he was right in his argument.
but winning an international legal point of view is nothing to being scorned by public media.

I agree with that NeopoleII, it would have taken a lot of guts to be involved in the winebox enquiry as an MP. I'm certainly warming to him, looking back on what he's achieved. I'd far rather see him working with Labour though. He's keen on fair play, well, so is Labour.

slimwin
25-07-2013, 08:10 PM
Stay at school,work hard,get taxed more. Doesn't sound fair=Labour.

craic
25-07-2013, 10:39 PM
Labour wants the Maoris back and that rules Peters out. National needed Sharples and his crew so he had to rubbish Peters. Now it seems that JK has added the numbers and will stay on side with Peters - for a while. How Labour deal with Shearer is the next big challenge.

elZorro
26-07-2013, 07:02 AM
Stay at school,work hard,get taxed more. Doesn't sound fair=Labour.

Labour understands that thriving businesses employ other people, Slimwin. We can't all be self-employed or be at the heads of businesses. There are a lot of jobs that need large teams working on them. I know a very good painter who is very capable with a paintbrush. He has a family to help support, and he's out of work over Hamilton's winter. He won't start up his own business to get work that I suspect is out there, because he doesn't have the skills for that (or he doesn't think he could do it). So he's sitting at home, waiting for bigger firms to employ him at a rate that is usually under $20 an hour, casual.

The main reason he's out of work is that everyone's a bit tight at the moment. Industry is trending down, manufacturing is dropping back. The money's not flowing around in all the normal places. Dairy farmers are doing OK, and will have a good year. But they are not big employers, and they're not great payers on an hourly rate either.

Chris Trotter has a more positive slant on Labour today.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/opinion/8966918/Creating-jobs-is-what-Labour-needs-to-do

Just after the NBR Richlist comes out, we have this:

http://www.interest.co.nz/kiwisaver/65569/quarter-new-zealanders-would-burn-through-their-savings-within-month-if-their-main-s

Bill English being obtuse about a CGT. It does make sense to exclude CGT on a modest family home. By saying it's not possible, they have a good excuse not to bring one in.


English indicates a sweeping role if capital gains applied26 July 2013
Finance Minister Bill English has taken a political warts and all approach to discussing the scope for a capital gains tax.
He told the New Zealand Herald yesterday that a capital gains levy on property makes little sense unless it also applies to the family home.
He was speaking at yesterday's Mood of the Boardroom event in Auckland, where he told business leaders the Government was maintaining its “clear position” on the capital gains tax debate.
“We're not supporting the extension of the current capital gains tax," he said.
"The overseas experts who tell us we need it all say that it should be comprehensive on all capital gains. And if you don't do the whole thing then it probably doesn't make much difference.”
The NZ Herald's 2013 Mood of the Boardroom CEOs Survey, showed just under half of leaders supported introduction of a capital gains tax in some form.
Labour’s finance spokesman David Parker told the same meeting the Government had backed itself into a corner over its refusal to budge on the matter.
There was a clear need for such a tax, given the "rampant house price inflation in Auckland", but National could not risk getting offside with its voters, Parker reportedly said.
"They're allied with the interests of the minority who would pay most of the capital gains tax and whose financial interests it's in to oppose a capital gains tax. They've got themselves in a corner."
Parker said Labour favoured excluding the family home. House prices continued to rise because speculators were buying more and more houses, making a tax free capital gain "at the expense of first home buyers and people who (then) can't even afford one house.”
Source: nzherald.co.nz

Major von Tempsky
26-07-2013, 12:23 PM
el Zorro "Labour understands that thriving businesses employ other people".

Pardon? That has always been Labour's problem. Tax them, regulate them, confiscate the goose's golden egg, harass them out of business, until the voters mercifully throw them out.

elZorro
26-07-2013, 01:58 PM
el Zorro "Labour understands that thriving businesses employ other people".

Pardon? That has always been Labour's problem. Tax them, regulate them, confiscate the goose's golden egg, harass them out of business, until the voters mercifully throw them out.

When you say "tax them" do you imply that because they are running a business and employing people, paying in PAYE, ACC for employees as part of that, employers shouldn't have to pay any tax on their own account? Or do you mean "overtax them"? And who does that apply to? Farmers, landlords, commercial property owners for example?

iceman
26-07-2013, 02:59 PM
When you say "tax them" do you imply that because they are running a business and employing people, paying in PAYE, ACC for employees as part of that, employers shouldn't have to pay any tax on their own account? Or do you mean "overtax them"? And who does that apply to? Farmers, landlords, commercial property owners for example?

EZ it surprises me how much you have it in for farmers, for someone living in a region that would be dead without them. I lived in Hamilton for 10 years so speak from some experience. You never miss an opportunity to slag farmers !

On the taxing front, this is one clear difference between National and Labour. National stands for and implements a low rate and simple tax system, but Labour stands for high tax rates with complex rules full of exemptions (holes) that are cumbersome, ineffective and expensive for all involved to administer.

We don't have to look far back to remember Clark/Cullen winning an election on a promise to tax the rich. They then brought in a 39% envy tax on "the rich bastards", which included the likes of my wife, a primary school teacher. Not sure if that's what the teachers and others in similar positions expected when they voted for Cullen's slogan !

In the very recent past or the present we see the half arsed ideas about removing GST from fruit & vegies and now an ill thought out CGT full of holes and exemptions.

Majority of voters see this clear difference and are afraid of what Labour might do in office.

elZorro
26-07-2013, 09:28 PM
EZ it surprises me how much you have it in for farmers, for someone living in a region that would be dead without them. I lived in Hamilton for 10 years so speak from some experience. You never miss an opportunity to slag farmers !

On the taxing front, this is one clear difference between National and Labour. National stands for and implements a low rate and simple tax system, but Labour stands for high tax rates with complex rules full of exemptions (holes) that are cumbersome, ineffective and expensive for all involved to administer.

We don't have to look far back to remember Clark/Cullen winning an election on a promise to tax the rich. They then brought in a 39% envy tax on "the rich bastards", which included the likes of my wife, a primary school teacher. Not sure if that's what the teachers and others in similar positions expected when they voted for Cullen's slogan !

In the very recent past or the present we see the half arsed ideas about removing GST from fruit & vegies and now an ill thought out CGT full of holes and exemptions.

Majority of voters see this clear difference and are afraid of what Labour might do in office.

I disagree on a lot of your post Iceman. I have a lot of time for farmers, personally. But farmers are a big force behind National, many MPs are also farmers, their constituencies are Blue voting strongholds, and we are constantly being told how important farm outputs are to NZ. Yet as a group we can see that they tend to get an easy ride through the common tax burden, while using vast tracts of the countryside in a reasonably inefficient process destined to be competed with overseas, and employing relatively few staff. It's a holier-than-thou parochial attitude out here in the provinces, and I see it as a weakness in National's basic argument for the trickle-down theory.

Your expressions of envy tax, (add fart tax) rich bastards, man ban etc, are mostly pithy, short slogans thought up by the National Party think-tanks. They have their own effective propaganda machine. Sure, Labour get their policies partly wrong sometimes, but the general idea is correct.

We will soon be needing a government that is capable of redirecting more productive effort into smarter products to export. This is a sea-change for the economy, but one that doesn't have to hurt like Rogernomics. National doesn't look like getting close to this. Already the buzz from the Callaghan Innovation CEO, is that NZ firms should back themselves and get investment capital in to do their R&D, don't expect full funding from the government. Newsflash: NZ firms never got full funding, maybe CRIs did, for some projects.

But this is also a clear message: there is a much smaller kitty for funded R&D, and I predict once again that many staff are about to be removed from Callaghan Innovation (http://sticknz.net/2013/07/09/callaghan-innovation-to-reveal-its-scientists-fate-today/)by National. It's a new name stuck onto a CRI job-slashing machine.

Far from an ad-hoc system, Labour's R&D proposed tax credits are universal, simple to audit, and can be accessed by many businesses. A CGT is also easy to apply with clear rules, as almost every other country already has it in place. These are the sorts of policies I think NZ will flourish with. National has been trying for five years just to get back into a budget surplus, they don't have a clue what to do.

iceman
27-07-2013, 12:31 AM
Your expressions of envy tax, (add fart tax) rich bastards, man ban etc, are mostly pithy, short slogans thought up by the National Party think-tanks.

But this is also a clear message: there is a much smaller kitty for funded R&D, and I predict once again that many staff are about to be removed from the Callaghan Institute by National. It's a new name stuck onto a CRI job-slashing machine.

Far from an ad-hoc system, Labour's R&D proposed tax credits are universal, simple to audit, and can be accessed by many businesses. A CGT is also easy to apply with clear rules, as almost every other country already has it in place. These are the sorts of policies I think NZ will flourish with. National has been trying for five years just to get back into a budget surplus, they don't have a clue what to do.

"rich bastards" came from Michael Cullen.
""Man ban" coined by media to describe a nutcase idea from the Labour Party excecutive

For clarification, I am not opposed to a good CGT, one with a reasonable tax rate (10-12%) applied equally to ALL investments (yes including the home) and payable only on realised profits that are not invested again within a certain time frame.
We will see one day what it is exactly that Labour is proposing regarding CGT but it will not be comprehensive and it will be full of exemptions, not at all the "clear lines"you envisage. Therefore it will not work.

NZ is now forecast to be the first developed country to raise OCR after the world recession, due to its good economic indicators and steady growth ahead with the Government books in surplus. Not bad for a Government that hasn't "got a clue what to do".

elZorro
27-07-2013, 09:47 AM
"rich bastards" came from Michael Cullen.
""Man ban" coined by media to describe a nutcase idea from the Labour Party excecutive

For clarification, I am not opposed to a good CGT, one with a reasonable tax rate (10-12%) applied equally to ALL investments (yes including the home) and payable only on realised profits that are not invested again within a certain time frame.
We will see one day what it is exactly that Labour is proposing regarding CGT but it will not be comprehensive and it will be full of exemptions, not at all the "clear lines"you envisage. Therefore it will not work.

NZ is now forecast to be the first developed country to raise OCR after the world recession, due to its good economic indicators and steady growth ahead with the Government books in surplus. Not bad for a Government that hasn't "got a clue what to do".

I might have to concede one or two of the quotes, Iceman. But National are very good at using any sound bites that come along.

In the Times today, some real numbers on the SkyCity convention centre deal. SkyCity will have a monopoly extension to their Auckland licence right through for another 35 years. This is worth between $200mill to $265mill, based on Aussie deals that can be compared. The new pokies and tables are worth about $35mill of extra profit a year, setting a capital valuation of another $340mill. So the intangible assets for SkyCity will have increased by up to $600 million. They don't necessarily have to show up on the balance sheet, but they could be factored into the share price. Against this, SkyCity's costs for the convention centre are factored at $402 million, an amount that could be borrowed for say 5%, or $20mill a year in interest, and it should pay its way considering the older centre might be turned into extra accommodation.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8970513/A-licence-to-print-money

A CGT on all family homes: everyone knows how unpopular that would be, and with good reason. It would only accelerate the trend away from home ownership, making our society less robust. CGT can be levied on homes that are above a certain sliding capital valuation, that would be a lot fairer on ordinary families living in modest homes. This would remove the bulk of families from any contact with a CGT.

The CGT only applying if funds are not reinvested within a certain timeframe: here is the opportunity to have funds being invested in more productive assets, how that could be arranged is for policymakers. But Labour's R&D tax credits for SMEs point to one small carrot that should work.


Iceman: NZ is now forecast to be the first developed country to raise OCR after the world recession, due to its good economic indicators and steady growth ahead with the Government books in surplus.


The OCR needs to be raised to cool a damaging house price blowout in Auckland, probably due to faulty macro settings by National. The National govt's budget is still in deficit, they have stretched out the timeline for it to return to surplus to be sometime in 2014-2015 (i.e. after the next election), and it will be a tiny surplus.

fungus pudding
27-07-2013, 09:51 AM
"rich bastards" came from Michael Cullen.
""Man ban" coined by media to describe a nutcase idea from the Labour Party excecutive

For clarification, I am not opposed to a good CGT, one with a reasonable tax rate (10-12%) applied equally to ALL investments (yes including the home) and payable only on realised profits that are not invested again within a certain time frame.


Spot on. It's that repatriation of funds being exempt is the thing that makes CGT schemes good or bad. Vital to include the family home or it's just nonsense. If that's all done it's at least fair, although it would have no effect on real esatate prices but would knock hell out of the NZ share market.
P.S. Cullen called the rich bastards rich pricks.

elZorro
27-07-2013, 10:18 AM
Spot on. It's that repatriation of funds being exempt is the thing that makes CGT schemes good or bad. Vital to include the family home or it's just nonsense. If that's all done it's at least fair, although it would have no effect on real esatate prices but would knock hell out of the NZ share market.
P.S. Cullen called the rich bastards rich pricks.

Why would it be nonsense to exclude a modest family home from a CGT FP? That's even and fair. Why would a CGT wreck the sharemarket? According to these views, a CGT can't be implemented by any govt wanting to stay in power. Yet it has been done most other places. You are simply scaremongering, which is the National Party way of ensuring the status quo.

You are also misquoting Cullen. He was being harassed by John Key in parliament, and the unintended mike pickup was directed only at him, and was not meant to be heard by anyone.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/2329749/Regrets-I-ve-had-a-few-Michael-Cullen-reflects

I've just started having a quick look at the new $500mill p.a. business R&D grants on offer from the offices of Steven Joyce. A quick look is all it takes. The previous criteria was $3mill turnover for the last 2-3 years. Now it's $300,000 of R&D expenditure for the last two years, plus other criteria and hoops, the funding being 20% of R&D costs. Grants can then be added for a joint venture project once one of the firms has this first tier grant, total funding up to 40% of the costs.

http://www.callaghaninnovation.govt.nz/news-events/new-criteria-business-rd-grants-now-available

So these grants would only apply to big businesses, they are not generous by any means, and the hoops are set up so that not much of the $500mill funding will be allocated anyway. Looks good to the public though - see- National is doing something about R&D.

westerly
27-07-2013, 06:46 PM
Why would it be nonsense to exclude a modest family home from a CGT FP? That's even and fair. Why would a CGT wreck the sharemarket? According to these views, a CGT can't be implemented by any govt wanting to stay in power. Yet it has been done most other places. You are simply scaremongering, which is the National Party way of ensuring the status quo.

You are also misquoting Cullen. He was being harassed by John Key in parliament, and the unintended mike pickup was directed only at him, and was not meant to be heard by anyone. .

It is the "rich bastards " who are against CGT. NZ is one of the very few countries in the OECD not having a CGT. The family home should be exempt but it soon won,t matter anyway because the average worker cannot afford a family home and National certainly won't do anything to assist first home buyers.
Once upon a time NZ had the State Advances as a source of low interest for first home buyers and the MOW built subdivisions with reasonably priced sections which were balloted. Bishopdale in CH CH for example.
But the market now is much more efficient and solves all problems and the rich get richer. And Labour once the workers party seems to have lost it's way.

Westerly

iceman
27-07-2013, 07:04 PM
[QUOTE=elZorro;418740]Why would it be nonsense to exclude a modest family home from a CGT FP? That's even and fair. /QUOTE]

EZ, by that, do you mean a modest $600,000 family home in Remuera or a $ 600,000 mansion in Invercargill ? The idea of excluding the family home is absurd on any investigation and impossible to implement fairly. And why not then also exclude a "modest" share portfolio to encourage investment in productive assets as you often mention, or a "modest" bach to preserve the kiwi lifestyle ?

Or is the idea for you just to achieve what Westerly wants, to have no "rich pricks" (got it right this time FP) in NZ. Would that make everyone better off ?

NZ is right smack bang in the middle of OECD countries for inequality so we don´t really have a massive problem in that regard, but need to do better in lifting up those lower down by education, attitude change and jobs availability.

slimwin
27-07-2013, 10:01 PM
Great post Iceman. Have to say Labour just seems to be it's old, nasty, hate the other bloke, self at the moment. They just seem so bigoted against anybody that's not thinking like them. How's that going to win over the people that actually want to be governed and that vote?

fungus pudding
28-07-2013, 08:44 AM
Excluding the family home from CGT is a little bit like saying income from your primary job is tax free and they'll only tax your second and third jobs.

Excluding the family home will encourage a number of undesirable economic distortions, e.g. over investment in the family home, renting the family home rather than selling, a workforce tied to the family home, the land under family homes not being freed up for better uses, etc.

Keep it simple. And keep the tax only payable when cash is available - otherwise its just a land tax.


Exactly - an exit tax removes much of the downside of CGT. i.e. it is less likely to stop things happening or slow commercial activity. According to Goff, their CGT would apply per transaction, but other than that I have not been able to get details of their proposed scheme. Mind you, it will be quite a while before they get near the treasury benches, so whatever they say now will hardly be final policy. You are quite right about more money going into luxury homes/mansions. Less development of rental accomodation also as developers run scared of being able to sell to an investor. Developers who build to hold will dry up for a few years - all these things have happened in other markets. Labour should dust off their history books and look at what happened when Rowling came up with his Speculation tax back in the seventies. The market dried up overnight and prices skyrocketed. Those he tried to help were severely thrashed, and the naughty people (rich pricks) Rowling rallied against made fortunes.
Thinking back, he used to squeak in a very similar fashion to David Parker. Bob Jones nicknamed him the mouse, and on one occasion while Rowling was being interviewed on TV by Brian Edwards, Jones managed to get into the studio and ran across the set in a mouse suit.

elZorro
28-07-2013, 09:14 AM
Who's to say that if a CGT was applied excluding the family home up to a value of say $600,000, that in later years it might be applied to all property? By then a CGT will be in place and more acceptable. Maybe then National voters will say "that's better" when in fact they hoped it would never be brought in. A flat $600,000 cutoff might buy a lot more property down south, but it's all related to the capital gain someone would achieve. It's cold down there, generally fewer options for work. If the CGT is light enough, I can't see why levying the tax at the sale process wouldn't accelerate the very reason for having the CGT. The property owner made a capital gain from the sale. Now, with most of that gain still in their possession, where should it be invested next? In another property, or in a business say, which will hopefully return much more on an annual basis, and as an offshoot, employ people?

Now we see the real rationale behind National's voters - can they handle the idea of paying more tax each year, if they earn more on paper?

POSSUM THE CAT
28-07-2013, 09:56 AM
elzorro In Australia you also have to think about Work Done on rental Properties. As to the fact that you have to choose (on all work done to class it as repairs & maintenance (instantly tax deductable or capital work & allowed as a deduction from the capital gains tax liability on sale.)) But bring it on at least you know exactly where you are. The tax department cannot come at you years later & say something you classed as capital gains they say was revenue & hit you with massive penalties. Still think it is a necessity for a modern progressive country. Have dealt with capital gains tax during seven years resident in Australia.

Hoop
28-07-2013, 10:55 AM
Applying CGT in a deflationary world..???????..

fungus pudding
28-07-2013, 11:34 AM
elzorro In Australia you also have to think about Work Done on rental Properties. As to the fact that you have to choose (on all work done to class it as repairs & maintenance (instantly tax deductable or capital work & allowed as a deduction from the capital gains tax liability on sale.)) But bring it on at least you know exactly where you are. The tax department cannot come at you years later & say something you classed as capital gains they say was revenue & hit you with massive penalties. Still think it is a necessity for a modern progressive country. Have dealt with capital gains tax during seven years resident in Australia.

The tax dept. there are exactly same as here. They set the rules differentiating between capital and r+m. If they disagree with you they sure as hell can come back and bite you later on in Australia or here. Having a CGT makes no difference to capital and r+m definitions. There is no problem in NZ. If you are unsure what to class work as - ask them. (There can be confusion on major works for a property recently acquired.) I have found them sensible and quite helpful on this point.

elZorro
28-07-2013, 06:09 PM
Thanks, yes, I see the point that some capital gain might be made up of R&M work that provided an appreciation when it came time to sell. But R&M costs have already been claimed against taxable income in the year they were incurred, for commercial property and rental housing. Given the big advantage those already in the property sector had over the boom times, it would be churlish to bring in a CGT that immediately stopped new homeowners from getting a tax-free capital gain on work they carried out on their own homes, up to a certain capital limit. That would be easy to keep current with annual house sales data.

FP, you would be interested to note that John Banks and Russel Norman were on Radio NZ today, and John complimented Russel on being the most influential MP outside the government. And he said he wasn't being paid to say that. From the sound of it, Russel Norman places highly, their policy ideals, and to join National and then forgo some of those ideals, would be very hard for the Greens.

elZorro
28-07-2013, 07:06 PM
Exactly - an exit tax removes much of the downside of CGT. i.e. it is less likely to stop things happening or slow commercial activity. According to Goff, their CGT would apply per transaction, but other than that I have not been able to get details of their proposed scheme. Mind you, it will be quite a while before they get near the treasury benches, so whatever they say now will hardly be final policy. You are quite right about more money going into luxury homes/mansions. Less development of rental accomodation also as developers run scared of being able to sell to an investor. Developers who build to hold will dry up for a few years - all these things have happened in other markets. Labour should dust off their history books and look at what happened when Rowling came up with his Speculation tax back in the seventies. The market dried up overnight and prices skyrocketed. Those he tried to help were severely thrashed, and the naughty people (rich pricks) Rowling rallied against made fortunes.
Thinking back, he used to squeak in a very similar fashion to David Parker. Bob Jones nicknamed him the mouse, and on one occasion while Rowling was being interviewed on TV by Brian Edwards, Jones managed to get into the studio and ran across the set in a mouse suit.

But this time the speculation tax is being countered with 10,000 new affordable houses each year, so Labour have learned, FP. That housing construction will mop up a lot of unemployed people too, and provide job training. The new Labour policy announcement restricting overseas buyers except Australians (with whom we have reciprocal arrangements) from buying existing homes, is another good idea. Nothing to stop overseas people building new houses here, which adds to the housing pool. Smart policies from Labour.

slimwin
28-07-2013, 07:27 PM
Actually I do like that one. I tried to buy a house in Thailand a while back and wasn't allowed. It seemed fair to me at the time. Hopefully National steal Labours thunder and do it first!

iceman
28-07-2013, 07:37 PM
The devil will be in the detail. Data suggests that the biggest groups of foreigners buying in NZ are Australians, new residents or residents to be. None will be covered under this policy so it is unlikely to have any real effect.
I think most investors that live overseas and are interested in speculative investment in NZ residential property, are thinking of NZ only because they know someone living here. They will simply buy in the names of friends and family if these types of restrictions will be implemented.
I don´t disagree with what they are trying to do, just don´t think it will work to make any difference. It will just complicate property transaction for no gain. Like most of the other desperate ideas Shearer has come up with.

iceman
28-07-2013, 08:04 PM
I see Shearer is saying the policy will be identical to the Australian policy, which has produced Brisbane being named as the most "overvalued city in the World", followed closely by Sydney, Melbourne and Perth !

UK also has a similar policy and I think its clear it hasn´t really kept house prices down much over there.

elZorro
28-07-2013, 10:13 PM
Actually I do like that one. I tried to buy a house in Thailand a while back and wasn't allowed. It seemed fair to me at the time. Hopefully National steal Labours thunder and do it first!

I thought you didn't favour either main party, Slimwin? :)

Iceman, the complementary building of a lot of lower-priced housing stock and more dense planning in inner-city areas, will help the policy work.

It turns out that the Labour policy is strikingly similar to the Green Party policy, and this isn't a new thing.

http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/greens-welcome-labour-moves-housing-policy/5/162569

Right-wing Matthew Hooton talking about the NBR Rich List (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/celebrate-rich-listers-ck-143434). He trots out the one-sided argument about the top few percent paying most of the income tax, but forgets to mention GST, power surcharges, fuel, liquor excise taxes etc, that everyone else pays mostly.

A comment further down about the candidates on the list being discreet about their positions, partly because they might be checked out by IRD.

fungus pudding
29-07-2013, 07:38 AM
The devil will be in the detail. Data suggests that the biggest groups of foreigners buying in NZ are Australians, new residents or residents to be. None will be covered under this policy so it is unlikely to have any real effect.
I think most investors that live overseas and are interested in speculative investment in NZ residential property, are thinking of NZ only because they know someone living here. They will simply buy in the names of friends and family if these types of restrictions will be implemented.
I don´t disagree with what they are trying to do, just don´t think it will work to make any difference. It will just complicate property transaction for no gain. Like most of the other desperate ideas Shearer has come up with.

It's ill conceived. If they want to ban foreigners from ownership then include residentially zoned land - that's the shortage. As announced this policy would send new sub-division prices throught the roof (that is if foreign buyers are the problem in the first place) New housing development areas would become expensive and tenant dominated. Rental housing must be integrated to avoid social problems. A lesson learnt through housing schemes throughout the world. Vendors would demolish their houses and offer the site to a wider market. That simply makes for an expensive replacement to an existing property.
I can see some point in banning absentee house owners, but not in directing them to a limited sector such as residential sections - particularly when that is exactly where the shortage is. It would be a disaster to see undeveloped sections as the thing NZers would have to compete over.

slimwin
29-07-2013, 08:08 AM
Starting to trend towards national more than ever. You've probably been a contributer to that EZ!

CJ
29-07-2013, 08:11 AM
Big call by Labour and they now have 3 policies (kiwibuild, CGT and this ban) to address the problem. Whether it will work is another question but at least they are trying. National may get caught being in Govt for 6 years and not making any difference.

This is a risk for them that they need to address. Not sure how though as I dont think their increased housing policy is enough (not enough to spur building)

craic
29-07-2013, 09:18 AM
I live on a few acres with mature trees. I could go out tomorrow, cut down a tree or two, carve the logs up with my Granberg chainsaw mill, have the timber treated down the road at a CCA plant, take it home and build a standard NZ bungalow-style house myself. A few thousand borrowed from the bank would cover the electrician, the plumber and the connection to the mains. I would then have good quality home on a quarter acre section that would house any family. I would expect to owe under $30,000 to a bank and if I added $100,000 to that and sold it, I would be well rewarded. Why can't I do that? 1001 rules, regulations, charges, fees and the like from local bodies and agencies who will provide nothing but would charge all sorts of rates forever into the future. There is no sewerage, water supply or the like to the area. One local had a large implement shed to spare. He converted the inside to a desireable family residence - it still looks like an implement shed form the outside - but his tenants are more than happy with their rural home, fifteen minutes from town.

iceman
29-07-2013, 08:15 PM
Oops. Stephen Franks has pointed out that Labour´s new policy is in direct contravention of the NZ-China FTA by favouring Australian investors over Chinese investors.
I can see more meat and milk powder becoming stuck onboard ships in Chinese ports if we start breaching China´s first FTA with the Western world. It may well upset our biggest and fastest growing trading partner !

Is it worth it for no obvious gains ?

fungus pudding
29-07-2013, 10:41 PM
Oops. Stephen Franks has pointed out that Labour´s new policy is in direct contravention of the NZ-China FTA by favouring Australian investors over Chinese investors.
I can see more meat and milk powder becoming stuck onboard ships in Chinese ports if we start breaching China´s first FTA with the Western world. It may well upset our biggest and fastest growing trading partner !

Is it worth it for no obvious gains ?

Not if building sites are not included. The 'not obvious gains' will be very obvious problems in the making.

elZorro
30-07-2013, 05:48 PM
Fletcher Building are getting ready, in case Labour gets voted in. They don't want to miss out.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8978453/Building-company-plans-to-ramp-up-house-production

Liam Dann had a good set of comments today.


Lowering the cost of building a house in this country, opening up access to land and providing incentives to build low-cost housing are all crucial to solving this problem.

But there is a third dynamic. We could be trumpeting policies to encourage business growth and create more and better-paying jobs.

Both parties pay lip service to this but get distracted, playing for the polls. (Note Liam forgot about R&D tax credits!)

New Zealand politics (far from uniquely) is cursed with short sight. Transforming an economy to create long-term wealth improvements needs long-term vision.

The problem with house price growth is that it is typically the only thing in the New Zealand economy that is growing. If wage growth was keeping up with our house prices we wouldn't have a problem.

By Liam Dann (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/liam-dann/news/headlines.cfm?a_id=106) @LiamDann (https://twitter.com/LiamDann) Email Liam (http://dynamic.nzherald.co.nz/feedback/author/index.cfm?a_id=106&objectid=10904640)

NZ Herald article on Labour's side. Plenty of real estate brokers and bankers aren't.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10905060

westerly
30-07-2013, 07:08 PM
Fletcher Building are getting ready, in case Labour gets voted in. They don't want to miss out.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8978453/Building-company-plans-to-ramp-up-house-production

Liam Dann had a good set of comments today.

"Shearer is correct when he says the policy is not out of line with similar rules in Australia, China and Singapore. But New Zealand has - since 1984 at least - prided itself on being an open economy with a global outlook." from Liam Dann

What he is saying is NZ. is a soft touch we let anyone in especially if they have lots of money. Doesn't matter where it came from.
Families with children good . Their aging parents and grandparents, hard to see any benefit to NZ Most especially from Great Britain are basically refugees escaping the results of uncontrolled immigration.

Westerly

Major von Tempsky
30-07-2013, 08:43 PM
I have 1, and only 1, reason to see Labour voted in at the moment, and that's mainly in the UK.

I totally detest and abhor Prince Charles, he's a complete pillock. If he becomes King I shall join the NZ Republican Party the same day. It needs to pass to William or Royalty is dead.
I think the Queen is holding on as hard as she can since she knows what a complete and utter disaster Charles is and with any luck he will die or become incapacitated before she does.
One notes (ha! ha!) that in the Netherlands and Belgium the monarch had the good sense to abdicate in favour of a younger Royal before it was too late. With any luck when Labour eventually gets in in the UK or NZ or both it will vote a mandatory retirement age on monarchs of 65 and the dreadful Charles will be avoided.
Other than that, I was going to vote for Lianne Dalziell in Chch to dispose of the David Henderson/Tony Marryatt/Bob Parker scandals and still will as she is the best candidate and even other Tory councilors here are saying the same thing.

iceman
01-08-2013, 07:57 PM
Another proof that maybe, just maybe Labour hasn´t thought the restriciton on housing investment policy through very clearly

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/share-your-news-and-views/8986108/Labour-threatens-Kiwi-expat-community

elZorro
01-08-2013, 08:34 PM
Another proof that maybe, just maybe Labour hasn´t thought the restriciton on housing investment policy through very clearly

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/share-your-news-and-views/8986108/Labour-threatens-Kiwi-expat-community

The policy is still in draft form, surely they'll have an exception for ex-pats. They certainly won't force existing stock to be sold. So this ex-pat is making good money overseas presumably, and is at the same time hoping for a nice capital gain back home. The investment could have been made in a NZ business, although the leverage would have been a lot smaller. It has been an easy and relatively safe way to leverage 10-20 thousand dollars of savings, if the rental covered most of the mortgage. NZ parents are often roped in to maintain the property when required. Great for the investors involved, but I doubt if this practice contributes much to the tax base, or generates any exports or GDP.

craic
04-08-2013, 09:25 AM
It must be very frustrating to be on the losing side - especially when the "tidal wave of sensible thinking" has plonked you on the losing side two elections in a row and is almost certainly going to do so again in about fifteen months and all you have left is the urge to insult those who disagree with you.

elZorro
04-08-2013, 10:54 AM
It must be very frustrating to be on the losing side - especially when the "tidal wave of sensible thinking" has plonked you on the losing side two elections in a row and is almost certainly going to do so again in about fifteen months and all you have left is the urge to insult those who disagree with you.

Craic, National need some partners by the next election if they want to hold office.


Colin James's Management Magazine column for August 2013

National's highs and complex lows

National is the usual party of government. Since its first win in 1949 it has been in office 42 of 63 years -- two-thirds of the time.

Moreover, there is reason to hope for four years more. The annual conference this month will be buoyed by polling averaging 45 per cent-plus. Ministers have been delivering business-friendly policy with vigour.

But in the history lurks a warning: National's vote share since 1949 has averaged only 1.3 per cent higher than Labour's.

National's predominance during the first-past-the-post period was in part because it had fewer votes stacked up in safe seats than Labour, so it got more of a seat for each vote. That delivered governing majorities in 1978 and 1981 even though Labour got more votes.

Under MMP the calculation is very different.

By election time in 2014 National and Labour will have had nine years each in office under MMP.

To take that to 12-9 in a third term, National has to fix its fraying support.

In 2011 ACT and United Future each kept a seat only because National persuaded enough of its voters to vote for them. Even then, the peculiarities of the St Lague system of apportioning list seats means only one of the two actually added a seat to National's tally. Had neither of them been there, National would have had one more list seat.

Peter Dunne's embarrassments over his email blitz with Andrea Vance make him an unlikely candidate next year and even more unlikely to be indulged by National voters. John Banks' antics over Kim Dotcom's donations to his 2010 mayoral campaign probably wipes him in Epsom, which is why ACT insiders want young David Seymour instead, if they can retire Banks. (Actually, National's Epsom candidate, Paul Goldsmith, is ideologically more ACT than ex-National Banks.)

At least one of the Maori party's three seats is vulnerable, not just because of weak membership and its split with Hone Harawira's Mana party but because (as Labour and Mana point out) it is seen as positioned alongside National on mainstream socioeconomic issues. In 2011 Labour got four times as many party votes as National in Maori seats.

If National is relying on its existing support parties in 2014, even repeating its 2011 vote of 47.3 per cent would miss a majority unless New Zealand First bombed out. National cannot expect 47 per cent when Labour is recovering and the Greens are still strong. Even 2008's 45 per cent is a big ask.

Moreover, the Maori party has voted against much of National's policy thrust and its retiring co-leaders have not made a convincing case of their wins for Maori. The value to National has been the transfer of some votes National cannot win itself. They are not soulmates.

That pushes National towards Colin Craig's Conservatives and towards Winston Peters if he clears 5 per cent.

Craig could be given a carefully chosen safe National seat where National voters could be persuaded to vote for him. He is a moral conservative and opposes asset sales. But he would be manageable if the Conservatives have, say, three seats. Helen Clark's management of Dunne's Christians in 2002-05 is a pointer.

To get Peters, John Key would have to smooch away Peters' deep resentment at Key's denigration of him in 2008. And some concessions would be needed to Peters' economic and demographic nationalism.

The danger in such deals is that National could irritate its rank and file, as happened after 1996 when Jim Bolger shacked up with Peters. Demands to be "blue" not "gray" got Bolger sacked, then Peters. There might be fertile territory for agitators like far-right-winger Simon Lusk who wants an ACT-like National and has mentored some MPs.

Put all that together. National's conference has cause to celebrate an in-charge, policy-friendly, high-polling government. But take away the celebration tinsel and there is not much sparkle.
--
Colin James, Synapsis Ltd, P O Box 9494, Wellington 6141
Ph (64)-4-384 7030, Mobile (64)-21-438 434, Fax (64)-4-384 9175
Webpage http://www.ColinJames.co.nz

slimwin
04-08-2013, 11:12 AM
Interesting to hear Aunty Helen didn't have a bad word to say about our govt when probed on Q & A this morning. He He.

elZorro
04-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Interesting to hear Aunty Helen didn't have a bad word to say about our govt when probed on Q & A this morning. He He.


I didn't see it this morning, but I read the text for that interview. Reading between the lines, Helen Clark thought that more proportional representation of women as MPs would be a good idea and worth pursuing. National would be well behind in this area. She also mentioned more innovation and not letting things slide in comparison with other countries. Those could be taken as mild reproaches for the current government. She's not PM now, so was never going to be very controversial in the interview.

It sounds like she's really enjoying her UN job, and her outlook was positive.

elZorro
06-08-2013, 06:48 AM
John Key has been reported as saying that the story from Fonterra about the bacteria scare in whey product, keeps changing. This of course is a big issue, and may have some months to run yet. The technical details on the bacteria don't make for pleasant reading.


http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/aut-prof-outlines-real-and-justified-botulism-concern-ck-143872

Steven Joyce is out there helping to sort it all out, as per usual. I just hope that everyone involved is being well briefed.

CJ
06-08-2013, 07:48 AM
Interesting to hear Aunty Helen didn't have a bad word to say about our govt when probed on Q & A this morning. He He.


I didn't see it this morning, but I read the text for that interview. Reading between the lines, Helen Clark thought that more proportional representation of women as MPs would be a good idea and worth pursuing. National would be well behind in this area. She also mentioned more innovation and not letting things slide in comparison with other countries. Those could be taken as mild reproaches for the current government. She's not PM now, so was never going to be very controversial in the interview.

It sounds like she's really enjoying her UN job, and her outlook was positive.I thought it was a very impressive interview. She was very diplomatic in her responses but overall, even reading between the lines, she wasn't bagging National. I've read a couple of other interviews she has done, and her responses on the GCSB were also supportive. One point she did make is that all parties should try to reach agreement on this issue - its a shame she isn't opposition leader at the moment as I think her diplomatic approach would be beneficial, rather than the approach taken by Labour and especially the Greens to critises and protest against everything National does. National is a very Center government so with a few concessions, it shouldn't be hard to find a middle ground, at least on some issues.

Re the #Manban, I think everyone is in agreement that they went about it the wrong way (helped a bit by right wing bloggers) and Helen seemed to agree with that. There are ways to increase women in parliament, there is the list after all. Its a shame Helen's job isn't closer to home as it would be great if she could mentor some of the rising female stars - the best way to ensure more females is to ensure they are the best candidate.

slimwin
06-08-2013, 12:20 PM
Me too CJ. My estimation of her as a diplomat went up considerably.

In fairness, with her current job she cant be seen to make opinions on countries political affairs. Her job is to side with democracy as a tool for countries to develop. If she were in opposition her job would be to get in power. And there in lies the problem with politics, it certainly isn't about the good of the country,it's about the good of the party.

Belg,belg,belg. So full of hate...:)

iceman
06-08-2013, 09:11 PM
Belg,belg,belg. So full of hate...:)

Give them a break slimwin. You´d be peeved off as well being on such a hopeless losing side. All these ill thought out ¨popular¨ policy ideas lately and still has no effect on polls.
I just can´t believe how long it is taking them to realise that a vast majority of NZ voters are centrists. Labour has moved away from the centre to meet Belg and EZ on the edge of the loonie Green Party, but have left majority of voters with nowhere to go but to a very centrists National ;)

elZorro
07-08-2013, 06:43 AM
Give them a break slimwin. You´d be peeved off as well being on such a hopeless losing side. All these ill thought out ¨popular¨ policy ideas lately and still has no effect on polls.
I just can´t believe how long it is taking them to realise that a vast majority of NZ voters are centrists. Labour has moved away from the centre to meet Belg and EZ on the edge of the loonie Green Party, but have left majority of voters with nowhere to go but to a very centrists National ;)

The public just take a while to shift, Iceman.. Labour might get there yet.

Interesting editorial on the Fonterra scare. It raises the point that the Government shouldn't overstep the mark here.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10909145

craic
07-08-2013, 07:10 AM
Interestingly, the plant contaminated was an Australian plant in todays Herald? Also Sri Lanka have banned Fonterra. I toured Sri Lanka couple of years ago and will not be going back. Apart from the coastal tourist hotels, the place is a disguisting mess of filth and poverty. As my wife often tells me, NZ politics is a pendulum, each side gets in with a hiss and a roar, then two or three terms and its back to the other side. Very little to do with the quality of governance. Most politicians are like everyone else, trying to keep their jobs at any cost. Just imagine if dentists were elected to a strictly controlled number of positions - or doctors for that matter? Fees would drop, receptionists would serve coffee in air conditioned rooms with this years magazines on the tables and even a play area for children.

elZorro
07-08-2013, 09:04 PM
Not hate. Just disappointment and a huge sense of wasted time.

Belgarion, what do you think of Andrew Little? A sample of his views.

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/debates/debates/speeches/50HansS_20130710_00001172/little-andrew-gambling-gambling-harm-reduction-amendment

elZorro
09-08-2013, 06:39 AM
On the face of it, the National Govt has helped keep the smelter open with a $30mill sweetener. Taxpayers will need to keep paying top dollar for power, but at least the Meridian asset sale can go ahead. Terrific. I'm all for a big business being able to carry on employing down there though, and there are other businesses up here making products from the cheap aluminium.

But this new deal also makes it easier for Rio to soon sell the plant to a smaller firm, who might not have the deep pockets required to tidy up the site at the inevitable end of operations.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9020341/Rio-tipped-to-fast-track-smelter-sale

elZorro
11-08-2013, 03:13 PM
Interesting perspective from the press gallery. National are openly talking about courting Winston Peters.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9027528/Nats-take-hurdles-in-stride

elZorro
12-08-2013, 06:30 AM
Welcome back Rod Oram. Always good for an article.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/9023041/Rod-Oram-NZ-Inc-must-start-delivering-on-its-promises

A comment from Shorty11.


Good to see some of these points spelt out here by Rod Oram. Of course he'll get the usual "loony left" rubbish from the Key/English acolytes, who seem to lack any perspective on what's going on around them, but hopefully some will take the time to think about the perils of the short-term focus that permeates policy-making under this government, and which simply reflects and encourages that same short-term focus within the modern corporate model, with shareholders continually calling for ever-increasing, and excessive profits.
We all know that John Key made his (smallish) fortune speculating in forex in a time of speculation, and excessive growth in the financial markets. We have all seen (although not all recognised) where that got us, globally. Unfortunately we have not learnt the lesson. The current Key-led government seem to have one over-riding principle: short term economic gain at the expense of long-term sustainability. This is partly illustrated by the electricity sector selloff, which virtually nobody believes is actually a good thing, but which is being allowed to happen. This can only have the following outcomes: inability, long term, to balance the books as the loss of income from these SOEs makes a $1-2billion hole in annual income, every year; higher electricity prices as the generator shareholders demand those ever-increasing super-profits we were talking about; and lack of investment in new, cleaner capacity as like Telecom, their boards turn them into cash cows for the hungry shareholders.
And now, belatedly, even as we are selling off our oceans to proven polluters, allowing frackers to pollute our aquifers, allowing uncaring dairy farmers to pollute our waterways, we are suddenly worrying about our "clean green" brand? Sorry, but it is becoming increasingly obvious that we are almost too far down the path towards destroying that image forever, with our Key-led focus on short-term growth, at all costs.
JK, like Muldoon, will enjoy the ride as he dictates the course of life in NZ over this short period, but if, like Muldoon, he aspires to "leave NZ no worse off than when he started", I'm afraid that he is deluding himself.

iceman
12-08-2013, 07:55 AM
Welcome back Rod Oram. Always good for an article.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/9023041/Rod-Oram-NZ-Inc-must-start-delivering-on-its-promises

A comment from Shorty11.

I will miss the much more interesting, sensible and balanced writings of Michael Wilson and wish they hadn't let Oram back !

Fred114
12-08-2013, 08:06 AM
Good interview with Michael Peters explaining neo-liberalism. Oddly the interview didn't get to education, in which he is some kind of professor at Waikato. Basic point was that governments are beholden to a set of ideas that replaces their influence with corporate influence in our society

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2565230/wayne-brittenden%27s-counterpoint

Another thinker referred to in the programme
http://mondediplo.com/1998/12/08bourdieu

elZorro
12-08-2013, 10:22 AM
Good interview with Michael Peters explaining neo-liberalism. Oddly the interview didn't get to education, in which he is some kind of professor at Waikato. Basic point was that governments are beholden to a set of ideas that replaces their influence with corporate influence in our society

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2565230/wayne-brittenden%27s-counterpoint

Another thinker referred to in the programme
http://mondediplo.com/1998/12/08bourdieu

Very interesting, Fred114. Puts a new light on the American think-tanks. We can see this sort of thing happening here in NZ. The financial sector, and the banks in particular, have a lot of power. There are some great pithy statements in the second article.

An army of unemployed ready to take anyone's waged position. That's a major clamp on pay rates, ensuring profits for shareholders at the expense of those doing the work.

iceman
12-08-2013, 11:25 AM
I hope we do not get this http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9030355/Murdoch-wages-media-war-against-Rudd here in NZ or when it happens, voters of all persuasions will see through it and find it abhorrent.
This sort of stuff would make my vote go Rudd's way if I was an Australian voter, on principle, against media moguls trying to tell us how to vote rather than feed us the information we need to make up our own minds.

elZorro
13-08-2013, 06:12 AM
I hope we do not get this http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9030355/Murdoch-wages-media-war-against-Rudd here in NZ or when it happens, voters of all persuasions will see through it and find it abhorrent.
This sort of stuff would make my vote go Rudd's way if I was an Australian voter, on principle, against media moguls trying to tell us how to vote rather than feed us the information we need to make up our own minds.

Yep, that's a bit OTT from Rupert Murdoch, and it sounds like he's doing that all the time. Similarly, Fairfax had a big mining owner weighing in on the board.

Colin James is today singing from the same songsheet as Fred114 about redistribution favouring big business.


Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 13 August 2013

Too big to fail -- so the buck stops with you

Too-big-to-fail turned up in New Zealand this month -- in triplicate.

Too-big-to-fail was the reason governments in the United States and parts of Europe gave for hosing taxpayers' money into banks which had gone bust after reckless, deceptive and in some cases criminal behaviour.

The reason given for the bailouts was that to do nothing would have piled severe economic damage on the serious economic damage the banks had already done.

This social welfare (for that is what it is) is widely applauded, even though it is a transfer from the deserving -- the taxpayers -- to the undeserving, a neat inversion of values usually applied in debates on social and moral issues.

New Zealand bailed out the too-big-to-fail Bank of New Zealand when it went bust in 1989 and 1990. The Treasury believed that to let it stop trading would have deeply damaged the financial system and the economy. In the 2000s our banks, mainly Australian-owned, did not go feral like those in the United States, Iceland, Ireland, Britain and other parts of Europe. So they didn't go bust.

But this month New Zealand has had its own examples of too-big-too-fail in three different forms.

First, Fonterra. It dominates the dairy industry which is about a quarter of merchandise exports. If Fonterra slips, the economy falters. If Fonterra fails safety tests, that damages the fresh/safe/natural country brand.

The cabinet is critically conscious of that and dispatched tough guy Steven Joyce to Fonterra to make the point.

The cabinet is discomforted -- to use a modest word -- by what it sees as Fonterra's "inward-looking", self-absorbed, self-important positioning as a self-contained farmer cooperative. Ministers grump that Fonterra does not know how to talk to the public, as its economic, brand and safety importance requires. Read that as also saying Fonterra now does not know how to talk to the cabinet.

Add in likely attacks from the Greens (babies versus a big, bad company) and Labour (desperate for traction) as the immediate crisis unity dissipates. Then add questions about the lack of science and external voices on the board and relevant rigour at executive and board level on safety (shades of the disgraced Pike River board). Then note its special regulatory status.

A cabinet frost now covers Fonterra's iconic status. That frost will also cover Federated Farmers if it tries to bluster about dairy farmers' importance to the economy.

It doesn't help Fonterra's relationship with ministers that a core part of the government's infrastructure programme is building dams for water storage, much of it for more cows.

Remember also that the government's part in this project is funded by proceeds from the Mighty River Power and Meridian Energy sales.

Which takes us to the second too-big-to-fail: Pacific Aluminium and its Tiwai Point smelter.

Pacific Aluminium is owned by Rio Tinto, a global giant well able to absorb Tiwai's (temporary?) losses. Nevertheless, New Zealand taxpayers, courtesy the cabinet, are to graciously dole out $30 million to this latest welfare beneficiary -- your gift to Rio Tinto's shareholders.

There is some offset news. Tiwai's employees and local contractors get time to adjust. The handout buys time for Transpower to fully link Manapouri into the national grid so others can use the power Rio Tinto relinquishes when it scarpers. And, for the asset-sales-fixated cabinet, Meridian's prospective share sale price lifts a bit.

Behind-scenes, the cabinet is no less grumpy about Rio Tinto than about Fonterra. But the commercial -- and political -- reality is that Tiwai Point is for now and a while longer too big to fail.

Chorus is, too, for yet another reason.

Chorus has found the cost of rolling out fibre for ultra-fast broadband (UFB) is higher than it projected when pricing its contract bid. Since Chorus is doing most of the roll-out, if it fails, so does the roll-out, which is a too-big-to-fail project. So: a cabinet minimum price deal on the copper network, UFB's competition.


Other players like Vodafone don't like this sudden change of rules for one player -- a practice now not unusual in the Key era when a Warner Brothers or a Sky City can pitch for special treatment. Special responses to special pleading are not what the 1980s designers of the level-playing-field market-led economy intended.

To be fair, there is again an offset: by also bringing forward the review of the post-UFB-rollout rules, there might be earlier certainty of the post-rollout environment. Players not in the Prime Minister's ear value regulatory certainty.

But here is the Key rule: get so big ministers will fear your failure, as a reliable exporter or big power-eating plant or big infrastructure provider or in another niche, especially if also a political bother. The rules are different for big fellas, just as for the northern hemisphere banks.

It is the small people, stuck with the rules, who pay. That's the 2010s business version of social welfare.

--
Colin James, Synapsis Ltd, P O Box 9494, Wellington 6141
Ph (64)-4-384 7030, Mobile (64)-21-438 434, Fax (64)-4-384 9175
Webpage http://www.ColinJames.co.nz

craic
13-08-2013, 08:01 AM
So the government makes the rules, as it was elected to do. And the government alters and adjusts the rules in the national interest as it was elected to do and the nation remains solvent and the people keep their jobs. And the Colin Jamses and other commentators fossick around in the mud for angles to keep their followers happy and maintain their own income at a level they think they deserve and the poor old opposition leader can only repeat his mantra "follow me lads, I'm right behind you" The wily Winston waits in the background until the battle is over, when he will step forward and back the winner, regardless of who it is.

craic
13-08-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't think that the Southland workers who will keep their jobs could be seen as a large block of National voters Nor the many who will be working on the SC Casino extensions. Governments are elected by the voters in accordance with agreed rules and if the left cannot scrape up enough support, don't blame the National voters, they know what they want and go out and get it..

westerly
13-08-2013, 06:49 PM
I don't think that the Southland workers who will keep their jobs could be seen as a large block of National voters Nor the many who will be working on the SC Casino extensions. Governments are elected by the voters in accordance with agreed rules and if the left cannot scrape up enough support, don't blame the National voters, they know what they want and go out and get it..

The lower South Island is all National apart from 2 Dunedin seats held by Labour. Of course it is a political decision, the workers at Tiwai Point may be Labour but the
Invercargil electorate held by National could easily change to Labour if the smelter closed. Whereas the 2 Dunedin seats are Labour and not supporting the Hillside workshops won,t do National any harm. Just National knowing what they want and going for it
As for the AK convention centre that is just John as Minister for tourism doing deals nothing to do with workers jobs.

westerly.

JBmurc
14-08-2013, 10:03 AM
On the face of it, the National Govt has helped keep the smelter open with a $30mill sweetener. Taxpayers will need to keep paying top dollar for power, but at least the Meridian asset sale can go ahead. Terrific. I'm all for a big business being able to carry on employing down there though, and there are other businesses up here making products from the cheap aluminium.

But this new deal also makes it easier for Rio to soon sell the plant to a smaller firm, who might not have the deep pockets required to tidy up the site at the inevitable end of operations.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9020341/Rio-tipped-to-fast-track-smelter-sale

$30mill is peanuts ...Labour gave 30mill to the rich boys to play in their sail boats ...had National not done anything round the problems with tiwai i.e to high costs to profits ...and they had closed the looney lefties would be crying out on all the job losses which fact is more round 3000 than the direct 700-800 people....property prices would also have dived overnight ....fact is within only a few years the TAX received from the workers at the plant will payback the 30mill ....

iceman
14-08-2013, 02:06 PM
Agree JBMurc. I don't necessarily agree with all of Key's decisions but I think he is a real pragmatist and gets on with it to make things happen. For the advancement of the country and I struggle to disagree with that.. I think that's why he is here. He wants to make a difference and he is. The Left side of the argument, like our Leftie mates on this forum, get pushed further and further into the left irrelevance and they don't know how to deal with it. You can see how confused they are when they start fighting against industry/employment support like the Tiwai deal like they're doing on this forum!!!!!

POSSUM THE CAT
14-08-2013, 02:16 PM
ICEMAN Then why did he not do the same thing for the Dunedin Railway Workshops. If Labour had suggested it you would lambasted the hell out of them. Please make up your mind are you for the free market or not. Or are you just to busy kissing J Key's rear end.

fungus pudding
14-08-2013, 04:22 PM
ICEMAN Then why did he not do the same thing for the Dunedin Railway Workshops. If Labour had suggested it you would lambasted the hell out of them. Please make up your mind are you for the free market or not. Or are you just to busy kissing J Key's rear end.

Are you familiar with Dunedin's Hillside workshops?

POSSUM THE CAT
14-08-2013, 06:03 PM
Very familiar Buildt, some of the best locomotives in the world, Most over thirty years old and still going strong. As Toll Holdings told the Labour Govt. If you do not pay our price we will put the locomotives & rolling stock up for international tender as they are some of the best in the world. And reboggieing is very simple. Also they can fit new Caterpillar Diesel Engines to them in less than 24 hours. What other locomotives in the world can you repower in less than 24hours. If you can subsidise an Aluminium Smelter to keep jobs you can do the same for other projects to keep jobs. National only favours big overseas companies. So one eyed.

elZorro
14-08-2013, 07:32 PM
$30mill is peanuts ...Labour gave 30mill to the rich boys to play in their sail boats ...had National not done anything round the problems with tiwai i.e to high costs to profits ...and they had closed the looney lefties would be crying out on all the job losses which fact is more round 3000 than the direct 700-800 people....property prices would also have dived overnight ....fact is within only a few years the TAX received from the workers at the plant will payback the 30mill ....

I agree $30mill is peanuts, and in one year the income tax and GST from 3,000 employed people will be a lot more than $30mill. Plus they won't be unemployed and costing the state. But is $30mill as a blank topup cheque too easy? Their power price has been dropped by 20%, and it was already at a price most of us could figure out some way of making a dollar or two out of it. About a quarter of the domestic price.

There's a good chance the exchange rate and/or the aluminium price will change favourably and they'll be back in profit down there. I've no doubt they have booked some great profits over the years. But big businesses seem to require good ROI's every year, so at least they haven't sacked most of their staff in the meantime. The power contract and operational agreement is possibly the only thing stopping them, that plus the costs and energy needed to restart the potlines.

Looking at it the other way, keeping NZAS going keeps the domestic power prices higher. Govt is the major income earner from that, plus the GST on it. Add in the 49% Meridian sell-off (and everybody seems to be wanting a piece of that slush fund) and there is a clear income intent behind getting the smelter deal sealed early. No new strings attached. Joe Public will be paying yet again. If National are lucky, the annual budget deficit will be a lot less, come election time. Well done.

JBmurc
14-08-2013, 07:52 PM
4708

I have heard that round from many Aucklander types ....who cares about Southland jobs we want cheap power ...fact is Manapouri power station was built and designed to feed Tiwai ..not Auckland spa's so would need massive capital to redirect power transmission lines
to feed the hungry north...I don't know if your've seen the Tiwai power lines before here's the pic above ....currently these run to Tiwai fro the power plant

elZorro
15-08-2013, 08:08 PM
Yep, fair enough JB. Manapouri was built to run Tiwai. Looking at the average aluminium price over the last 20 years or so, it has been increasing, but perhaps not as quickly as inflation. There is reasonable hope that the Alu price at 83c/lb is below what it should be, more like $1 a pound. At that price they'd be making money again. The GFC scared the hell out of aluminium buyers. The slow trend down mirrors the gold issue. Maybe manufacturing margins in general are being squeezed, and of course China now has its own efficient aluminium smelters.

Would it be too much to hope for that some government would work the levers to buy the smelter at some point, establish a manufacturing base big enough to use all of the smelter production in NZ factories, most of which would then be exported as higher value finished goods, with other gear included? This would take some of the pressure off the profit requirement at the plant, and keep a Think-Big project running for a lot longer, while employing thousands of NZers in manufacturing. Sooner or later, the costs to import raw aluminium billets by sea will start to mean that local production can be at a higher price. And let's face it, Meridian are still making a good profit at 5-6c per kWHr. Privatise half of Meridian, and this sort of a win-win deal will be impossible.

elZorro
16-08-2013, 06:46 AM
More mining/manufacturing jobs disappear in the Waikato. Ruakura Research Station looks like being disassembled within 2 years. Things are not looking too bright in the provinces.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9048964/Miners-screwed-at-the-coalface

craic
16-08-2013, 07:51 AM
Had the misfortune of visiting Huntley two or three times when I owned a car that could not make it to Auckland on a full tank of gas. Now I have a Suzuki, I can get there and back to Cambridge on a tank. Now in all my travels, I would have to rate that coal town as one of NZ's least lovely. It rivals Tokoroa in this respect but Tokoroa has toilets and leafy park seats for the traveller. Maybe the National Party has a devious plan to clean out this place, bulldoze it, build a casino and a water park for Chinese tourists? Pokeno could develop a line of rice sausages, guaranteed not to contain milk powder, and Mercer could come up with a line of Melamine cheese. All the existing Huntley residents would be encouraged to move to New Zealand.

JBmurc
16-08-2013, 09:33 AM
Yep, fair enough JB. Manapouri was built to run Tiwai. Looking at the average aluminium price over the last 20 years or so, it has been increasing, but perhaps not as quickly as inflation. There is reasonable hope that the Alu price at 83c/lb is below what it should be, more like $1 a pound. At that price they'd be making money again. The GFC scared the hell out of aluminium buyers. The slow trend down mirrors the gold issue. Maybe manufacturing margins in general are being squeezed, and of course China now has its own efficient aluminium smelters.

Would it be too much to hope for that some government would work the levers to buy the smelter at some point, establish a manufacturing base big enough to use all of the smelter production in NZ factories, most of which would then be exported as higher value finished goods, with other gear included? This would take some of the pressure off the profit requirement at the plant, and keep a Think-Big project running for a lot longer, while employing thousands of NZers in manufacturing. Sooner or later, the costs to import raw aluminium billets by sea will start to mean that local production can be at a higher price. And let's face it, Meridian are still making a good profit at 5-6c per kWHr. Privatise half of Meridian, and this sort of a win-win deal will be impossible.


I understood locally we use round 5% of Tiwai aluminium production ...I work on a Fishing Vessel made from Tiwai aluminium ...NZ makes some of the best alumunium(and other material) boats in the world ..

craic
18-08-2013, 09:45 AM
Who we are helps to determine what we believe the facts to be, says Michael Blastland. He and his Norm Chronicles co-author, DavidSpeigelhalter cite academic David Kahn as noting that people tend to assimilate knowledge that confirms their emotional and cultural predispositions. In other words,we filter to suit our beliefs and instincts; for example , where we sit on the"individualist" to "communitarian continuum"...........................................
.........Cultural Cognition is Kahns term for how we filter out our uncongenial evidence or expert witness,for people whose habits, appearance, cultural disposition, politics and so on appear more akin to our own. And we give more credibility to their views. He notes that everyone thinks that the true consensus among reliable witnesses is with them.

The middle bit of this article is still on page eighteen of the Listener, dated August 10 2013.

elZorro
18-08-2013, 10:13 AM
Had the misfortune of visiting Huntley two or three times when I owned a car that could not make it to Auckland on a full tank of gas. Now I have a Suzuki, I can get there and back to Cambridge on a tank. Now in all my travels, I would have to rate that coal town as one of NZ's least lovely. It rivals Tokoroa in this respect but Tokoroa has toilets and leafy park seats for the traveller. Maybe the National Party has a devious plan to clean out this place, bulldoze it, build a casino and a water park for Chinese tourists? Pokeno could develop a line of rice sausages, guaranteed not to contain milk powder, and Mercer could come up with a line of Melamine cheese. All the existing Huntley residents would be encouraged to move to New Zealand.

Firstly Criac, I have to amend your spelling, it's HUNTLY. No "e".

Huntly's Main street was bypassed as part of the deal for building the power station, in the 70s. If you had travelled into the main street you'd have seen that the shops are generally tidy, not as flash as in Napier but then it's always been a small town of about 5,000 to 7,000 people. The local council has refurbished the amenities in the recent past. It has no port, just a railway line and a legacy of coal mining and farming. It could be argued that not enough of the income made from these operations, and the power station, makes its way back to the local community or retailers.

People are now doing what you're doing, travelling further for shopping, despite the price of petrol. They want more choice, leaner margins. So Huntly is now more of a service centre for the locals, than a retail destination. Huntly used to have more manufacturing, more industry. You should have seen the businesses popping up out of nowhere to fill contracts for the power station in the 70s construction. It had a heyday, now it's a symptom of what can happen if locals cannot make a decent dollar out of industry, or are not encouraged to give it a go.

craic
18-08-2013, 12:25 PM
The only reason, apart from petrol, that we stopped and entered Huntly was a Bendon Factory Shop that my wife spotted. Last time we noted the decrepid DEKA sign on the outskirts only to read shortly afterwards that it is being preserved as part of the cultural heritage. There are many Huntlys around NZ. For years, I had to spend a day or three each month in Wairoa as part of my criminal justice career and that had its peculiarities. Before that I had a few Southern Hawkes Bay Brigadoons on my visiting list with the NZ Forest Service.

Major von Tempsky
18-08-2013, 07:54 PM
Nice one John Key :-)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10913783

elZorro
18-08-2013, 08:23 PM
The only reason, apart from petrol, that we stopped and entered Huntly was a Bendon Factory Shop that my wife spotted. Last time we noted the decrepid DEKA sign on the outskirts only to read shortly afterwards that it is being preserved as part of the cultural heritage. There are many Huntlys around NZ. For years, I had to spend a day or three each month in Wairoa as part of my criminal justice career and that had its peculiarities. Before that I had a few Southern Hawkes Bay Brigadoons on my visiting list with the NZ Forest Service.

Someone has written a thesis on Huntly after 1987, (http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/4873/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf) when the coalmining workforce was chopped in half by Rogernomics.


In 1987 the Huntly retail area provided a wide range of goods and services and
encouraged the community to shop locally. There was no need to travel through to
Hamilton as almost everything could be locally sourced. The main street was anchored by
two department stores, Farmers and Deka, which were at opposite ends of the retail area.
Other retailers situated on the main street included electrical appliance stores, hardware
shops, clothing stores, gift shops, a jewellers, a carpet and soft furnishings store, a fabric
shop, three takeaway bars, hair dressers, two chemists, a shoe shop, a bookstore, two
butchers, a greengrocer, along with a cafe and the local hotel.
The Bendon factory was
at the southern end of the retail area, opposite the Huntly Hotel.



I think now there's no Farmers, no Deka, no Bendon factory, no furniture/carpet store, no appliances, but some of the old general stores are still hanging in there.

MVT, I saw the John Key interview. He certainly is slick, and with no notes, he's a tough debater. Can we trust him though? Isn't this the same guy that said he'd never deal with Winston? What happened to that promise?

iceman
19-08-2013, 05:11 AM
More mining/manufacturing jobs disappear in the Waikato. Ruakura Research Station looks like being disassembled within 2 years. Things are not looking too bright in the provinces.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9048964/Miners-screwed-at-the-coalface

EZ, however much the Left goes on about and tries to manufacture a manufacturing crises in NZ, the facts just don't support it. The latest BNZ PMI (Performance of Manufacturing Index) survey from BNZ published last week, has the PMI itself as well as EMPLOYMENT, new orders and deliveries, at their highest (or near) level since the survey started in 2002. Overall, manufacturing in NZ is in relatively good shape.
Maybe that's why we don;t really hear much about the waste of time and money Manufacturing Inquiry the Opposition (to everything) ran a few months back. Maybe the only thing that silly inquiry achieved was to show the opposition politicians how wrong they were, hence the silence since.

elZorro
19-08-2013, 06:43 AM
Iceman, you're possibly quite right. BusinessNZ is fairly tightly aligned with the National party or right thinking (http://www.3news.co.nz/BusinessNZ-slams-RMA-reform-plans/tabid/421/articleID/292986/Default.aspx), but I'm sure that will have no effect on what they publish on their website. They have helpfully supplied some manufacturing surveys from 2004 as a reference. Anything happened in the meantime?

http://www.businessnz.org.nz/surveys/502

Since then, they have pasted up the BNZ PMI surveys, and I haven't been able to find out just how representative they are. NAB is the bank that sponsors and comments on the survey after BusinessNZ has collected the data, (not a registered NZ bank, it says on the bottom of the report). No error margins on the data. Inside the report, you may have missed that elaborately manufactured goods probably took a dive, as exports to Aussie dropped by 9% last year. Dropped by 9% overall.

The strongest component of the PMI increase was foodstuffs. Fine if you're into that area, not so good for high-added-value exports.

iceman
20-08-2013, 05:57 AM
And now the BNZ/Business NZ survey on the services sector has come out and bingo, at one of the highest levels ever ! Stephen Topliss from BNZ says we may be experiencing a GDP growth of 4-5% p.a.
Oh but that's right, the sky is falling because a couple of people in Ruakura lost their jobs !

elZorro
20-08-2013, 06:13 AM
Iceman, I had a really good look last night, to find out the number of respondents in the survey. BusinessNZ compile the data for these surveys from their members, and the BNZ sponsor that work and provide the commentary. The number of respondents isn't available on the web. I thought that would be a big no-no for any professional survey. It's always there, along with the standard deviation or margin of error, in the bigger surveys. What if it's just a survey of 100 optimistic NZ businesses? The other interesting thing I saw was a big spike in perceived negative data every time an election was due, if Labour were in power. So to some extent, the PMI survey mimics voting behaviour among business owners. This is not a quantified survey, it asks for perceptions, or moods. It's not statistically robust. If that is all we have to go on regarding the manufacturing economy of NZ, then pity help us.

Colin James on the RMA, more changes being railroaded through, another mess in the making. Those who want to change or use the local environment for profitable ends, should pay the fees and enter the due process. In almost all cases it has worked out fine.


Colin James's Otago Daily Times column for 20 August 2013

One hundred per cent pure Š economic growth

Amy Adams: "An effective and efficient resource management system is an important part of our business growth agenda." So, change the law "to ensure that our planning and resource management law enables economic growth as well as providing good environmental outcomes".

Those comments underline that GDP growth is the cabinet's dominant priority. When the cabinet has completed its extensive legislative programme on resource planning and use, the balance between environmental protection and economic development will have shifted significantly towards the latter.

Adams' comments were in a booklet launched at the National party conference detailing the third phase of changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA). This follows a bill passed in the first term and one now in the House and is alongside a bill passed, one in the House and one to come on local government and legislation to come on water.

Put that legislative torrent in the context of reforms of the state sector and its financial management, of labour and health and safety law, of mining law, of welfare law, of education, of the financial sector, of regulatory principles and practice and much else. John Key's government is the most active since the radical deregulations of the 1984-88 Lange-Douglas era.

Within that programme the RMA and local government changes constitute major reform in themselves.

The RMA governs the allocation and use of land and affects property rights and the preservation of the environment, amenities and heritage -- matters so central to our way of life that the RMA is almost an element of the constitution. Major changes to the RMA are significant changes in our governing arrangements.

Councils are to have imposed on them a framework for the single plans which will replace the present multiple plans. Councils will be able to tweak the content but only within the framework rules. The framework will include more national policy statements and environmental standards, including ones targeted to specific regions, to which councils will have to conform.

"Communities", in other words, will have much less local sovereignty. Coupled with the extensive specific council legislation, this amounts to a significant shift in power from local government to central government. That is constitutional change.

This centralisation is at odds with neoliberal principles and with the principle of subsidiarity which says that, as between central and local government, decisions should be made at the level closest to those most directly affected by the decisions.

Is this centralisation so bad? A suite of rules in Adams' forthcoming bill aims for more efficient and less petty and meddlesome rules on building and resource use and more consistency across councils. Many who have bumped up against the system will applaud.

Many, notably in business and among economic analysts, will also back the reweighting in favour of economic development. Bryce Wilkinson of the New Zealand Initiative said it will deliver greater wellbeing. Arguably, a voter majority would side with Wilkinson.

Still, hefty minorities disapprove of the development tilt. They link it to ministers' enthusiasm for mining as a get-rich-quick path and to its timidity on climate change, illustrated on Friday when it reset the 2020 climate change target at a net 5 per cent below 1990 levels, which means we can go on emitting more greenhouse gases provided trees are planted or firms buy enough foreign "units". Neither is exactly "clean-green" or "100 per cent pure".

There may also be perverse results from Adams' RMA changes. The new settings will be tested in court so could set a feast for lawyers. As a result, some projects may take longer than under current well-established case law, which does address economic factors.

Local Government New Zealand (LGNZ) is not happy.

LGNZ endorsed Adams' aim of greater consistency across councils and changes aiming to reduce complexity and cost and said that "if the government works with the sector and other key stakeholders, this can be achieved".

But it said the timeframes for implementing the changes are not workable, "particularly given the significant requirements to amend council plans to reflect the new principles of the act". It said some changes "will not deliver the outcomes intended" and added tartly: "We're keen to work with the government in a more constructive way than has occurred to date to get this right." Then, ominously: "We will work with stakeholders and foster media and public understanding of the consequences of a number of the issues."

Might councillors' grumpiness spill over into a voter backlash against Adams and Co 15 months from now?

Most likely not. The political calculation inherent in ministers' standoff with councils is that voters rank the value of goods and services above the value of localised decisions and above the value of the environment.

And in that calculation Key's vigorous reformers are probably right.
--
Colin James, Synapsis Ltd, P O Box 9494, Wellington 6141
Ph (64)-4-384 7030, Mobile (64)-21-438 434, Fax (64)-4-384 9175
Webpage http://www.ColinJames.co.nz

iceman
20-08-2013, 07:15 AM
Iceman, you post a very forward looking set of crystal ball gazing as fact. Nice try - but you make a fool of yourself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9061427/Indicators-forecast-economic-growth

The opening para ....New Zealand's strongest service sector performance since October last year could signal falling unemployment and economic growth of as much as 5 per cent in the next year, according to the latest BNZ-BusinessNZ survey.

And BNZ senior economist Craig Ebert? ...

"The bigger point is if we can believe the GDP stuff and if we trust the usual lags to employment then the size of the jobs growth might put more obvious downward pressure on the unemployment.

"So instead of going down by decimal points it might go down by bigger and bigger chunks."


Keep on with the happy pills ... This poster isn't fooled by feel good puff pieces.

Belg, I am not reporting anything as fact. I am simply saying that the constant negativeness from the Left, both politically and on this forum, about everything that is happening in the country isn't supported by what is happening around us. NZ is actually doing very well compared to most other countries so why the need to be so negative ?
But like you said, you will not be "fooled"by the constant flow of good data as it pains you too much to acknowledge it !

elZorro
20-08-2013, 09:02 PM
Actually I think the 'barrage from the left' has been far too timid Iceman, it's generally swamped by PR. You can't ignore the long tail forever.

Some signs that the public are starting to see some issues that they care about, in the Roy Morgan poll out today. A big shift towards a Labour-Green voting pattern. They would win the seat of power if voting was held today.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5113-new-zealand-voting-intention-august-2013-201308200137

elZorro
22-08-2013, 06:40 AM
Gary Taylor and the EDS do a good job of keeping all businesses that could affect the environment, on the straight and narrow. I'm vague as to how they are funded. But they do respond to emails with good advice, and they appear to keep tabs on many projects. Like these proposed salmon farms, from a company majority owned by a Malaysian family.

http://www.sharechat.co.nz/article/b3580c92/nz-king-salmon-faces-supreme-court-bid-from-environment-group.html

They have also kept an eye on the recently renewed water and air discharge permits from Huntly power station, owned by Genesis.

Good to see they are not being railroaded by a fervent National Party.

iceman
22-08-2013, 07:12 AM
Agree with that EZ that it is extremely important to ensure high environmental considerations on all major projects. King Salmon did have parts of their application turned down and received only permission for the 4 farms mentioned here if I remember correctly.
King Salmon, majority owned by a Malaysian family as you point out (not sure why that is important) is a large good employer and exporter in exactly the type of business I thought you would be supporting !

iceman
22-08-2013, 12:16 PM
So here we go http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11112726

Shearer gone

fungus pudding
22-08-2013, 02:00 PM
So here we go http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11112726

Shearer gone

Gone and will be quickly forgotten. Here's hoping they have the good sense to once again reject Cunliffe.

winner69
22-08-2013, 02:06 PM
So the IF National wins has become a WHEN National wins ....certainty now

fungus pudding
22-08-2013, 02:38 PM
So the IF National wins has become a WHEN National wins ....certainty now

It was certain before. The Greens will be the loser out of this.

iceman
22-08-2013, 02:43 PM
The most ridiculous thing in all of this is their new rules about Leadership election. They will now go through a month with no Leader, 15 months out from an election and during which time the Government will list Meridian. During this month there will be severe infighting and not enough time before the next election to heal the wounds.
Great for National !

Major von Tempsky
22-08-2013, 05:39 PM
Loved the Twitter comments "Shearer is reducing the amount of fish in his diet due to all the dead rats he has had to swallow". :-)

Xerof
22-08-2013, 05:45 PM
It's now obvious what this stunt was all about.....


4737

Shearer was calling for a SNAPPERLECTION

iceman
22-08-2013, 07:13 PM
Loved the Twitter comments "Shearer is reducing the amount of fish in his diet due to all the dead rats he has had to swallow". :-)

Loved Chris Finlayson when he said to media, with his deadpan face, "he is experienced in dealing with civil wars in 3rd world countries and despots in Africa, but nothing could have prepared him for this lot"

But where are Ez, Belgie and the rest of the Lefties on this thread ? Conspicuous by their absence. Maybe making sure their Leadership vote gets counted !

elZorro
22-08-2013, 07:24 PM
Loved Chris Finlayson when he said to media, with his deadpan face, "he is experienced in dealing with civil wars in 3rd world countries and despots in Africa, but nothing could have prepared him for this lot"

But where are Ez, Belgie and the rest of the Lefties on this thread ? Conspicuous by their absence. Maybe making sure their Leadership vote gets counted !

I was looking for a measured response Iceman, now we've lost our leader temporarily. I did have an inside(outside?) tip that Andrew Little may be favoured. FP will be happy about that (ABC). Although the press always say Little's an ex-unionist. I think in fact that he's a lawyer, and worked for a union. A big difference. He's also been more active lately.

I thought the snapper Shearer tabled was a good use of props. He's just not quick enough off the mark to beat John Key. Most of us wouldn't be.

iceman
22-08-2013, 07:36 PM
I was looking for a measured response Iceman, now we've lost our leader temporarily. I did have an inside(outside?) tip that Andrew Little may be favoured. FP will be happy about that (ABC). Although the press always say Little's an ex-unionist. I think in fact that he's a lawyer, and worked for a union. A big difference. He's also been more active lately.

I thought the snapper Shearer tabled was a good use of props. He's just not quick enough off the mark to beat John Key. Most of us wouldn't be.

Welcome back. I hope you are OK. I watched Question Time on TV on Tuesday. I was aghast when Shearer stood up and asked Key why they had not contacted Labour about GSCB bill and Key stood up and asked Shearer if he was sure he wanted to ask that question. Sheared uncomfortably repeated the question and Key let rip about their confidential meetings and Shearer sneaking down the backstairs etc etc to avoid Norman, I thought, he is finished. Key was a master politician in that episode (Shearer a puppet) and I think history will say that was the moment Shearer fell.

I hope you are right about Andrew Little being the next Leader. Another inexperienced politician as Labour leader is exactly what National needs.

Major von Tempsky
22-08-2013, 07:52 PM
Actually, the Roy Morgan poll has always been well known since arriving from Australia about 5 years ago for producing results to the Left of any other poll.
If you can quote some mainstream polls with the same results I'd take more notice....

janner
22-08-2013, 08:28 PM
It's now obvious what this stunt was all about.....


4737

Shearer was calling for a SNAPPERLECTION

FFS :-)) Good one..

janner
22-08-2013, 08:37 PM
Will rest on my laurels.. Always said ( on record ).. Shearer did not have the stamina..

Who will be next ???.. No names no pack drill.. Whom ever it is ..

Will be cut to pieces by.... Winstone.. In his push for power !!..

John Key knows this.. Thus the ... Defrosting of relations between them.

elZorro
24-08-2013, 07:48 AM
Will rest on my laurels.. Always said ( on record ).. Shearer did not have the stamina..

Who will be next ???.. No names no pack drill.. Whom ever it is ..

Will be cut to pieces by.... Winstone.. In his push for power !!..

John Key knows this.. Thus the ... Defrosting of relations between them.

Defrosting of relations? Or do you mean "Hold onto power at all costs"? Winston has been fairly derogatory of National's policies in the last few months or more, and has scored some good hits. If he has matured enough to follow his sense of fair play when choosing political partners, he must side with the Labour-Greens.

slimwin
24-08-2013, 10:32 AM
Fair play? Winston is all about Winston. Always has been and always will be. He's getting very old too. Health will be an issue before much longer,

janner
24-08-2013, 07:16 PM
Defrosting of relations? Or do you mean "Hold onto power at all costs"? Winston has been fairly derogatory of National's policies in the last few months or more, and has scored some good hits. If he has matured enough to follow his sense of fair play when choosing political partners, he must side with the Labour-Greens.

If Winstone has matured even a little .. He would certainly realize that Liabour and the gweens do not understand " fair play "

Their way or no way !!..

Oh !!!.. Are you talking about " Same size shower heads for all " ??... that's FAIR.. Maybe one type of soap ??.. If it is available !!.

Queue here for left shoes.. come back next week for your FAIR ration of right shoes.. If they are available..

In the mean time .. Whilst waiting in the queue.. Please be entertained by the writings of Aunty Hulun..

Pass the TUI please..

elZorro
25-08-2013, 09:39 AM
I just had a look at Winston Peter's Wikipedia pages. Reminded me of a few things, but he has much to be proud of too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Peters

It's true that he has previously slated the National Party (the first one he joined) but still went into coalition with them. But he was offered substantial rewards for that. Surely this time John Key couldn't offer Treasurer and Foreign Affairs roles as payment. On the other hand National is unlikely to stay in for over three terms. I'd like to see them stopped at just two. Winston distrusts big business. He might be socially conservative like his followers, but the last term in particular has seen a lot of power and wealth being transferred to big corporates and the already wealthy.

The state has also been reduced in size, even though its costs have not reduced much. Unemployment is a growth industry. Many of our school leavers and graduates cannot find their first jobs. The govt budget is still in deficit, has been in deficit since National came to power. These are damning results.

This week our local National MP sent my now voting-age daughter a form to fill out, a tick box of which issues were most important to her. This was not really a chance to comment on National policies, more they are hoping to hear that they are on the right track regarding hoardings and law changes. Some of the issues sounded OK, but many I think have double meanings. This is National, there's always the spin.

1. Returning to surplus by 2014/2015 (and they helped out with record deficits)
4. Tougher sentencing, parole, and bail laws (but leave all the bottle stores and pubs open all hours, don't work on retaining positions or new jobs in SMEs)
5. Reforming local government (because we all know they rip people off)
6. Reducing long-term welfare dependency, with a focus on work (the dole a small factor in our costs, and where are these jobs in manufacturing? National clobbered them even within their own businesses)
8. Partial share sales in energy SOEs and AirNZ (because we need the cash that badly, and can think of no other way to find it)
9. Raising achievement and accountability in schools (because they are no better than local bodies, ditto)
11. Practical environmental policies supporting growth (We're going to stomp on the RMA because it costs big businesses)

There is no place to comment of the policy directions, only to state which party you always, or usually, support. So they're trying to gauge how many are swinging voters, and how to target them.

I'm not sure how many of these policies would appeal to Winston personally, but a few will interest his supporters. I agree that he will most likely have a pivotal role in the 2014 elections. He could be a true statesman if he holds big business to account once again, does not accept the baubles of office, but works with a Labour-Greens coalition to restore some of the integrity of NZ.

777
25-08-2013, 09:48 AM
The trouble is there will be no NZ at the end of a Labour/Green 3 year term. What then? 20 or 30 years to get back to where we are now. Labour on their own but not with the Greens. Especially while Norman is there.

elZorro
25-08-2013, 10:46 AM
The trouble is there will be no NZ at the end of a Labour/Green 3 year term. What then? 20 or 30 years to get back to where we are now. Labour on their own but not with the Greens. Especially while Norman is there.

777 and Janner, you seem about as scared of Labour-Green policies as I am of National policies. Except that on track records, Labour does a better job of keeping people employed and productive (excusing Rogernomics) than National does. The country will survive no matter who gets into power. But NZ as a country that is known for fairness, a right to work, a decent pay, and yet encouraging of small startups, these are core Labour policies, not those of the National Party. If you reject the 'trickle down' theory for the lie that it is, then all the spin-doctoring from National can be seen for what it really stands for: Big business is in control here, and profits are the only name of the game.

We elected a government that is meant to be protecting our rights, increasing our chances of success in every area of our lives. All of us, not just the top few percent.

Major von Tempsky
26-08-2013, 08:03 PM
777 and Janner, you seem about as scared of Labour-Green policies as I am of National policies. Except that on track records, Labour does a better job of keeping people employed and productive (excusing Rogernomics) than National does. The country will survive no matter who gets into power. But NZ as a country that is known for fairness, a right to work, a decent pay, and yet encouraging of small startups, these are core Labour policies, not those of the National Party. If you reject the 'trickle down' theory for the lie that it is, then all the spin-doctoring from National can be seen for what it really stands for: Big business is in control here, and profits are the only name of the game.

We elected a government that is meant to be protecting our rights, increasing our chances of success in every area of our lives. All of us, not just the top few percent.

You live in a dream world El Zorro. It's not the Labour Government, when its in power, "that employs people and makes them productive". That's the private sector, companies firms and self-employed and they do it in spite of a Labour Government and not because of it.

"A right to work and a decent pay". There are no such rights, they have to be enterprised, educated for, planned for, strived for. If you are stupid, lazy, a gang member, choose to live way out in the wop wops and/or spend your time surfing there is no such right. Nobody owes you a living, you have to get it for yourself.

elZorro
26-08-2013, 09:07 PM
You live in a dream world El Zorro. It's not the Labour Government, when its in power, "that employs people and makes them productive". That's the private sector, companies firms and self-employed and they do it in spite of a Labour Government and not because of it.

"A right to work and a decent pay". There are no such rights, they have to be enterprised, educated for, planned for, strived for. If you are stupid, lazy, a gang member, choose to live way out in the wop wops and/or spend your time surfing there is no such right. Nobody owes you a living, you have to get it for yourself.

No, I think you are in a dream world MVT. The private sector, as evidenced by many taking potshots at us lefties, would rather never employ anyone. In this Nirvana, easy capital gains and income are made by leasing properties to the masses. Warehouses are filled with imported goods, and then spun on to the public with no added value. Manufacturing ceases because there is no point from NZ. There will never be any problems sourcing stuff from overseas, this model is perfect. Therefore as some business structures become less profitable, it makes sense to just do away with them altogether. When the state buys goods, price should be everything, and whether or not local goods and services could be used, it has to stack up on initial cost alone. If the resultant policy reduces the public sector, terrific. While we're at it, sell off everything except maybe the hospitals and the defence/police forces. Keep a strong lid on wages, and if those in the long tail don't find a job, then make it difficult for them. Money doesn't grow on trees to pay for these dole bludgers.

Is that about it? How many people do you employ MVT? If you know something about that, then try to remember that when Labour were in office, they achieved a very low unemployment rate (almost the best in the world), increasing numbers of SMEs and tax income, great budget surpluses. They also made a lot of good changes around NZ.

National: so far has been hopeless. Record budget deficits, higher unemployed, aimless control of the economy. They told us that there would only be a cap on the public sector, that they were for a 'brighter future'. They are hoping like hell that everything will work out in the next year or two, that's what they're doing. Marking time by selling off state assets.

Until the rest of the world finds cheaper energy, nothing great is going to happen, it might just get worse. We need some thinkers in govt, not dyed-in-the-wool National MPs.

elZorro
27-08-2013, 06:42 AM
Here's an article by Chris Trotter just before nominations closed, FP, and I think I can see why you're not so keen on the last candidate to put himself forward. We know Trotter has been backing Cunliffe for a long time. Both were on TV this morning, giving good, lucid interviews. It'll be an interesting few weeks. Since Andrew Little is out of the running, and Cunliffe looks perfectly at home in front of the camera, with heaps of political skills, you have to give him every chance of becoming the Labour leader.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/08/23/crossing-the-fault-line-making-the-case-for-a-cunliffe-robertson-unity-ticket/

iceman
27-08-2013, 07:24 AM
The next 3-4 weeks of Labour further destroying themselves with infighting, broadcasted live on our TV screens and radio, will be interesting. I think Cunliffe is indeed a formidable opponent for Key. I thought so last time as well and never understood why Labour selected Shearer. But he went down in my estimations yesterday with his US Presidential style launching of his campaign. He also promised to tax the rich, like Clark/Cullen did, so it will be interesting to see that new policy. Watch out the middle class and professionals like teachers, nurses etc, which is what happened with last clever tax the rich policy.
Grant Robertson hasn't really got a chance outside of Labour's insiders and Wellington. Shane Jones might be the surprise in this fiasco. I loved Shane's response a couple of days ago on radio when asked whether his now infamous (ridiculous that media continues bringing it up) XXX video watching would hurt him, he said "I'm not running to be the Pope" .
He could bring back some real Labour voters, that have been left out by the rainbow faction running Labour for the last 10 odd years. I think he would be a lot more worrying for National than Cunliffe is.

Major von Tempsky
27-08-2013, 03:51 PM
So, after Cunliffe bombs with his tax the rich approach (anyone with a bach, a few shares, some money in the bank, some money overseas, a second job - which includes most of the Labour force), just watch him crash in the polls, who will be the next Labour leader? Maybe Tony Blair is free...

elZorro
27-08-2013, 06:12 PM
So, after Cunliffe bombs with his tax the rich approach (anyone with a bach, a few shares, some money in the bank, some money overseas, a second job - which includes most of the Labour force), just watch him crash in the polls, who will be the next Labour leader? Maybe Tony Blair is free...

MVT, you could have a better look at Labour's policies. What could Labour do about the bach that National hasn't already? Now you can't advertise it at a high rental, never rent it out, but yet claim all the costs for the entire part of the year that you don't use it yourself. That was a big tax dodge that should never have been allowed anyway. Labour will be trying to get increased investment in enterprises, rather than in unproductive property investments.

National of course says they are doing the same thing, it's just that their policies say the opposite. Like allowing more people to use their KiwiSaver accounts to buy their first house from (existing cheaper) stocks. Hardly likely to bring down house prices is it? And who are the people sitting there ready to sell those spare houses?

iceman
28-08-2013, 03:47 PM
Key turned up to Q&A time with a pre-canned set of jokes.

Shame most on them tanked.
Shame Key and the Nat govt - once again - turned Q&A time in a very poor facsimilie of an intermediate school comedy production
Shame the Speaker is such gutless wimp

Shame on NZ'ers letting Key play the un-funny "class clown" on our national (and international) stage.

When the F##k is this going to stop! (Yes - belgie's angry)

Hard to disagree with that belg. It was a circus indeed. Then Trevor Mallard turned to disgusting gutter politics today. He is a desperate man completely void of any scruples !

blackcap
29-08-2013, 04:15 AM
Its interesting to see the debate between right and left and to see where people stand. Sometimes I think its not the end result we are differing on its the way to get there. Also a lot of people have entitlement issues when it comes to politics. I feel the catch cry "the government should provide jobs" is weak and redundant. It is in my opinion not the governments "job" to provide jobs, rather create a regulatory and fiscal framework that promotes and encourages growth and entrepreneurship. Blaming a government for your own situation is deflecting responsibility from where it really lies.
I see Labour are self destructing at present but any of the 3 will provide Key with stiffer opposition. I think Key can be smug at times and I do not like his seemingly going with every whim. Next years election may yet be exciting but who to vote for....... undecided at present.

elZorro
29-08-2013, 07:21 AM
Its interesting to see the debate between right and left and to see where people stand. Sometimes I think its not the end result we are differing on its the way to get there. Also a lot of people have entitlement issues when it comes to politics. I feel the catch cry "the government should provide jobs" is weak and redundant. It is in my opinion not the governments "job" to provide jobs, rather create a regulatory and fiscal framework that promotes and encourages growth and entrepreneurship. Blaming a government for your own situation is deflecting responsibility from where it really lies.
I see Labour are self destructing at present but any of the 3 will provide Key with stiffer opposition. I think Key can be smug at times and I do not like his seemingly going with every whim. Next years election may yet be exciting but who to vote for....... undecided at present.

Appreciate the post, Blackcap. I for one, don't expect the government to provide jobs. But on the other hand I don't expect a government to go out of their way to remove jobs under their watch.

The railway workshops in Dunedin were one such business that National scuttled, after a proud history. I can tell FP will prepare a missive about the ugly workshops that had done their time. It's a lot easier to tidy up a building and ensure jobs are secured with state contracts, than to pay for the difference between tax income and new unemployment benefits. That decision alone shows the faulty logic of this government. Not much capital cost was saved in the purchase, many jobs here were lost, when more could have been created, new skills learnt. The new gear was faulty (brakes etc) and had to be repaired, and buying it all in from overseas simply worsened the balance of payments. Who knows how long the new rolling stock will be useful for, would it have lasted longer if it was built here, and the questions go on.

Housing is another area where the govt is two-faced. Not prepared to let their investor mates take a hit in Auckland, they are trying to talk down the market while feeding it cash from the super fund. Interest rates are low, and even with a paltry yield of about 4% at best, more investors are piling in.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9099200/Auckland-house-market-risky-NZIER

We'll know the govt is serious about Auckland house prices, when they start leading the market just enough to begin building some lower cost infill housing. That won't happen with National, but Labour will do it. I can't see anything wrong with this proposal.

Blackcap, National came into power in 2008 and within days had removed R&D tax credits for SMEs, an easily accessed carrot for small business that could have worked wonders by now. It wasn't even expensive, as initial takeup was low. They effectively said that small businesses should leave the entrepreneurial work to a few bigger businesses. This is a strange policy, when it is known that big businesses always start out small.

National is smug all right, but when the rhetoric doesn't at all match what their policies are doing to NZ, we should be very worried.

Major von Tempsky
29-08-2013, 11:36 AM
Shame we have a democracy in NZ.
That's why people have their own opinions and in the secrecy of the ballot box and scientific opinion polls they keep voting for John Key and Belge keeps losing.
Shame really....

janner
29-08-2013, 09:32 PM
[QUOTE=elZorro;424545]Appreciate the post, Blackcap. I for one, don't expect the government to provide jobs. But on the other hand I don't expect a government to go out of their way to remove jobs under their watch.

The railway workshops in Dunedin were one such business that National scuttled, after a proud history. "..

Yes .. Railways... A history that goes back to the 1800's..

A solution to transportation in the 1800's..

Costing more and more and more in subsidies as time went on..

Much cheaper to give every one a Segway !!.

Concrete over the railway lines .. Al La Quay street.. Used only at night time by rail.. for Freight ..

Used in day time for Segway's .. Or.. Cars.. No buses .. they remain on the highways and byways for people and used as now..

Beam me up Scotty.. ..

elZorro
30-08-2013, 06:39 AM
[QUOTE=elZorro;424545]Appreciate the post, Blackcap. I for one, don't expect the government to provide jobs. But on the other hand I don't expect a government to go out of their way to remove jobs under their watch.

The railway workshops in Dunedin were one such business that National scuttled, after a proud history. "..

Yes .. Railways... A history that goes back to the 1800's..

A solution to transportation in the 1800's..

Costing more and more and more in subsidies as time went on..

Much cheaper to give every one a Segway !!.

Concrete over the railway lines .. Al La Quay street.. Used only at night time by rail.. for Freight ..

Used in day time for Segway's .. Or.. Cars.. No buses .. they remain on the highways and byways for people and used as now..

Beam me up Scotty.. ..

Janner, your thinking is too localised. Up here Fonterra have saved heaps on strongly linking with a rail corridor in Te Rapa. I think the rail sidings go right into their coolstores. It has saved thousands of truck movements, unclogging the roads. Come back to me with some numbers that show how much the National Govt has saved overall by canning the Dunedin Workshops, over the next 20 years. You won't be able to find those figures, the national Govt didn't bother trying to calculate them either, because they'd have a fair idea on the result: this will be an extra expense for taxpayers.

Aaron
30-08-2013, 07:57 AM
Watched "Mind the Gap" on TV last night. not as interesting as I thought it would be. Trickle down is a crock I don't think anyone believes it anymore and national's privatisation in the face of public opposition especially as the power companies are making money rather than costing the taxpayer must be idealogically driven. I would have thought a program on the gap between rich and poor might have pointed out National has upped GST (a regressive tax) to 15% so it can drop the top rates of a progressive income tax system all the while refusing to consider a wealth tax(capital gains). We know where John Key stands but what I can't understand is that there aren't that many super rich people who can isolate themselves from the masses as the divide gets larger, why do national keep getting such a large chunk of the vote. I guess a directionless Labour and communist green alternative is just way more scary for a lot of people.
We have one of the most pure GST systems with minimal exemptions and it works well. the only downside is its regressive. Why not bite the bullet and introduce a pure capital gains tax without the exemptions for your own home etc. Keep it simple, it will never be fair to everyone but at least it will as easy as possible to understand.
Disclaimer I am happy to invest in privatised companies if the dividend is big enough and am probably leaning toward national at the next election with the losses I stand to make on my power company shares if labour/greens get in a major factor.

elZorro
31-08-2013, 07:26 AM
Aaron, you seem conflicted. You know the wool is being pulled over your eyes by the National Govt. However they are dangling a possible profit carrot in front of you, dividends from power company shares that you've effectively paid twice for. Put down on paper what the profits might be per year from those shares you own, and then value the other benefits that should accrue from a Labour-Greens govt. There will be more people employed, the minimum wage will go up, there will be more money flowing around, you will be more likely to profit from enterprise. Even property owners will benefit, with more looking to open up disused shops, others being able to leave the garage on the back of a section and rent a real house.

Janner, here's a background on the Fonterra coolstore at Te Rapa. What do you think of rail now?

http://www.fonterra.com/wps/wcm/connect/cef445d0-face-4182-b467-df4000d933f7/Fonterra+Crawford+St+-+site+Fact+Sheet_high+res.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=cef445d0-face-4182-b467-df4000d933f7

elZorro
01-09-2013, 08:21 AM
The voting papers for the new Labour Leader have arrived. Helpfully, a donations form was also provided in case I felt especially generous at this time, fairly normal for Labour, where I suspect a lot of small donations make up the bulk of their funding.

I need to rank all three candidates for a valid vote. Any ideas on this will be taken on board, except I have already formed an opinion, helped by Rod Oram this morning.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/9107225/Rod-Oram-Time-for-economic-leadership

winner69
01-09-2013, 09:25 AM
Ha ha ...you need to rank all three

So it's Cunliffe #1 for you eh

To make sure Robertson #2 and the movie watcher on tax payers money #3

Easy peasy but I don't get to vote mate ......but jeez with Cunliffe around your party not going anywhere which is a shame really cause for once Oram is right ..... Key and National are stuffing this country up

elZorro
01-09-2013, 10:05 AM
Ha ha ...you need to rank all three

So it's Cunliffe #1 for you eh

To make sure Robertson #2 and the movie watcher on tax payers money #3

Easy peasy but I don't get to vote mate ......but jeez with Cunliffe around your party not going anywhere which is a shame really cause for once Oram is right ..... Key and National are stuffing this country up

Yep, that's how I'll vote I think, fairly predictable. I don't think you can write off Labour's chances though, especially when you add in the Green vote from people who are disconcerted like yourself. Cunliffe seems to be the face of a step to the left, and after years of obstinate movements in the minimum wage, I think it was inevitable. There are a lot of commentators like Rod Oram, Chris Trotter and Colin James who will probably concur.

winner69
01-09-2013, 10:22 AM
A living wage of 18 bucks plus will do untold damage to the country though EZ

Thousands of small business closing down with thousands out of a job .....the things those people do well will just cost so much more ....and their customers will revolt

I mentor a small business, typical of a many in nz. They provide a needed service but labour intensive. some 40% of the costs are people, on low rates, Would need a 15% price rise to cover .....yeah right ...the punters packed a sad when prices went up 4% a while ago. Competition - all would be in same boat

Never mind ....just a rave and probably reflects the state of this once proud nation eh

elZorro
01-09-2013, 11:49 AM
A living wage of 18 bucks plus will do untold damage to the country though EZ

Thousands of small business closing down with thousands out of a job .....the things those people do well will just cost so much more ....and their customers will revolt

I mentor a small business, typical of a many in nz. They provide a needed service but labour intensive. some 40% of the costs are people, on low rates, Would need a 15% price rise to cover .....yeah right ...the punters packed a sad when prices went up 4% a while ago. Competition - all would be in same boat

Never mind ....just a rave and probably reflects the state of this once proud nation eh

I know what you mean, Winner69. Any move to $18 an hour would have to be gradual for some businesses. Employers showed what they thought of Labour's idea to remove the young adults lower wage rate - they employed older adults in those positions. And now, partly because businesses have not been incentivised with R&D tax credits, because the labour force is smaller, some good waged positions have been removed from the economy - more to follow - there is increasing pressure on input costs.

I make a loss on some of my business outputs, on the service side mostly. My customers think I'm mad, but I have strong profit centres in other lines that more than make up for it. And I'm always thinking about how I can generate new profits from a big, happy customer base with lots of goodwill, or from exporting our manufacturing. When Labour get in, I'll be accelerating those plans, and accessing the R&D tax credits. I hope a lot of other businesses will do the same.

Major von Tempsky
02-09-2013, 02:34 PM
"When Labour get in....".

You could take this coming weekend's election in Auistralia as an interesting straw in the wind for that EZ :-)

elZorro
02-09-2013, 02:44 PM
"When Labour get in....".

You could take this coming weekend's election in Auistralia as an interesting straw in the wind for that EZ :-)

MVT, National will be out in the cold again, either this election or the next one. That's the way it goes. In Aussie, Labor have been in for a while, time for a change. I think you underestimate the size of the long tail here, MVT. If Labour can get their attention, National will be in big trouble.

iceman
04-09-2013, 06:55 AM
And the winner from this garbage http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11119023 is ? JOHN KEY

Major von Tempsky
04-09-2013, 08:16 AM
Just reading through the extravagant and non-sensical list of promises in Iceman's NZH article (if they are promising at that rate now what would they do during a General Election campaign? The mind boggles!) I note one by Grant Robertson "to raise women MPs to 50% by.." some date (soonish).

He could consider similar quotas for gays and lesbians.
This would entail the expulsion of a number of gay and lesbian MPs as they are rather over quota now....

fungus pudding
04-09-2013, 08:33 AM
Just reading through the extravagant and non-sensical list of promises in Iceman's NZH article (if they are promising at that rate now what would they do during a General Election campaign? The mind boggles!) I note one by Grant Robertson "to raise women MPs to 50% by.." some date (soonish).

He could consider similar quotas for gays and lesbians.
This would entail the expulsion of a number of gay and lesbian MPs as they are rather over quota now....

Precisely. They should establish a quota for straights. That would entail a massive recruitment campaign.

janner
05-09-2013, 07:04 PM
Precisely. They should establish a quota for straights. That would entail a massive recruitment campaign.

NO !!.. They should leave selection up to " THE PEOPLE "..

Are we looking forward to more Ballot box Stuffing. a. La. Otahuhu..

How many were living at the address ??..

What ever happened to that bunch of corrupt Indians ??

Major von Tempsky
06-09-2013, 03:08 PM
NZ Finance Sector 4th Best in the World :-)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11120104

It says our market is very thin - yet in lunchtime radio news the NZ $ is the 10th most traded currency in the world, 2% of world markets and a significantly higher per cent of our economy than the Australian dollar is of theirs....

craic
08-09-2013, 08:47 AM
Oh Dear! Just back from Malaysia with the worst case of Delhi Belly ever experienced by anyone. But this morning I learn that we are one up in the America's cup and that Labour have bombed out badly in the election in Australia. Then I find out that HB have lost the Shield in record time and my beloved is down with the same DB that I am just getting over. If I can just get back to HB in one piece and sit under a pine tree for an hour or so with an axe in one hand and a chainsaw nearby, the world will right itself. I might even manage a pint or two of the Black Stuff down at the club. Very last trip to the East - its Australia from now on. P.S. Are there people out there who still believe that Labour can win the next election?

fungus pudding
08-09-2013, 09:16 AM
Oh Dear! Just back from Malaysia with the worst case of Delhi Belly ever experienced by anyone. But this morning I learn that we are one up in the America's cup and that Labour have bombed out badly in the election in Australia. Then I find out that HB have lost the Shield in record time and my beloved is down with the same DB that I am just getting over. If I can just get back to HB in one piece and sit under a pine tree for an hour or so with an axe in one hand and a chainsaw nearby, the world will right itself. I might even manage a pint or two of the Black Stuff down at the club. Very last trip to the East - its Australia from now on. P.S. Are there people out there who still believe that Labour can win the next election?

I suspect Lydia Coe generated quite a bit of publicity while you were over there. Golfers do get huge publicity and cost us almost nothing. I was in USA during one America's cup (about 1990?) NZ was doing well but it was nearly impossible to find out anything about it. Very few Americans had ever heard of it and there was no TV coverage other than the briefest mention when there was nothing else to talk about. I think it's pretty much still like that outside of San Diego and Rhode Island. Still - if we clean up this time there will be more notice taken because it's so much about technology now, and that's definitely a booster for lil ol' NZ. To your last question: Yes, but not many. They're a bit of a laugh at the moment. It seems there are several sets of policies. Cunliffe's, Jones', Robertson's and the party's.

Minerbarejet
08-09-2013, 09:33 AM
Oh Dear! Just back from Malaysia with the worst case of Delhi Belly ever experienced by anyone. But this morning I learn that we are one up in the America's cup and that Labour have bombed out badly in the election in Australia. Then I find out that HB have lost the Shield in record time and my beloved is down with the same DB that I am just getting over. If I can just get back to HB in one piece and sit under a pine tree for an hour or so with an axe in one hand and a chainsaw nearby, the world will right itself. I might even manage a pint or two of the Black Stuff down at the club. Very last trip to the East - its Australia from now on. P.S. Are there people out there who still believe that Labour can win the next election?Sorry to hear that- its awful isnt it. 2 up now in the AC. Sheild is getting around this year. And your p.s. With what? or should I say whom.

elZorro
10-09-2013, 06:40 AM
Craic, hope you are getting better fast.

Yesterday the June quarter manufacturing report came out, with a 3% or so average drop in sales and volume largely caused by the drought over summer. Stock have been sold off farm in the first quarter, and milk volume was down with herds drying off early. What I find interesting is that on average, the rest of manufacturing was flat. Not increasing because of clever National policies, just flat. And stocks of some outputs are building up, I guess because they are unsold. We are not hearing daily about how new businesses in NZ are exploiting new markets overseas with new products, because in the majority they are carrying on as before, in the hope that everything will come right. This is the National Party message too.

http://stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/industry_sectors/manufacturing_and_production/EconomicSurveyofManufacturing_HOTPJun13qtr.aspx

Major von Tempsky
10-09-2013, 07:05 AM
http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8720674/wealthy-norway-swings-right-in-election

It's the natural situation in efficient functioning democracies that all societies tend to in the long run .... :-)

craic
10-09-2013, 08:15 AM
Interesting assessment of the Labour leaders from Bob Jones in todays Herald. While Cunliffe seems to have the race won, he could prove to be the last thing that a fractured Labour party needs at this stage. Maybe they are going to repeat the errors of the Australian party and stuff up? Or maybe Cunliffe will sprout a halo and undergo a major personality change?

Minerbarejet
10-09-2013, 08:58 AM
Interesting assessment of the Labour leaders from Bob Jones in todays Herald. While Cunliffe seems to have the race won, he could prove to be the last thing that a fractured Labour party needs at this stage. Maybe they are going to repeat the errors of the Australian party and stuff up? Or maybe Cunliffe will sprout a halo and undergo a major personality change?maybe he needs Jacinda there as deputy to keep him under control.
quote: Bill Cosby: Behind every great man there is noone - the woman is three steps ahead.

fungus pudding
10-09-2013, 09:06 AM
Interesting assessment of the Labour leaders from Bob Jones in todays Herald. While Cunliffe seems to have the race won, he could prove to be the last thing that a fractured Labour party needs at this stage. Maybe they are going to repeat the errors of the Australian party and stuff up? Or maybe Cunliffe will sprout a halo and undergo a major personality change?

It will be interesting if Labour caucus have no choice but to appoint Cunliffe as leader, and that's looking likely. Will the party hold together trill the election under Cunliffe, or will there be too many MPs not willing to stand at next election under him as leader?

JBmurc
10-09-2013, 09:34 AM
It will be interesting if Labour caucus have no choice but to appoint Cunliffe as leader, and that's looking likely. Will the party hold together trill the election under Cunliffe, or will there be too many MPs not willing to stand at next election under him as leader?

yeah Labour parties on both sides of the tasman have turned into micky mouse operations

JBmurc
10-09-2013, 09:35 AM
It will be interesting if Labour caucus have no choice but to appoint Cunliffe as leader, and that's looking likely. Will the party hold together trill the election under Cunliffe, or will there be too many MPs not willing to stand at next election under him as leader?

yeah Labour parties on both sides of the tasman have turned into micky mouse operations

westerly
10-09-2013, 06:35 PM
Rather amusing how the far right posters line up to criticise the Labour leadership contenders. They should be more concerned with John Key's flow of "off the
cuff" comments continually illustrating his shallowness.
Perhaps they are worried thier taxes may increase after the next election.

Westerly

slimwin
10-09-2013, 07:58 PM
Far right? Yeah,right! Maybe if viewed from the extreme left aye.