Where have all the share punters gone?

[Major von Tempsky]

Judging by the paucity of comments on, for example the FBU, TEL and CNU results one has to ask the questions

(a) why so little interest and by so few people? (another reason why the NZX is so much smaller than the ASX than you would expect on a population adjusted basis?)

(b) is there another site with a lot more comment and discussion?

(c) is this the result of too many terms of Labour government and welfare payments/Nat Super sapping people's initiative and energy and imagination?

(d) or is it the result of too many scams, frauds and crashes starting with 1987 and progressing through to the near total wipe-out of NZ's Finance company sector?

(e) NZ has over 4.5million people - number who have entered Paper Tiger's share competition (which costs nothing) from the whole of NZ - about 140..... quoi?

[voltage]

moosie 900 you are quite right, everyone thinks property. NZX can take some blame few products and very little education in promoting shares as a way of gaining wealth. You can only buy a few global products on the nzx. There have been scams but also in property which seems to make little difference. Many NZ shares give a yield above 5% where you are lucky to find any auckland property that will yield a greater yield.

[RazorX]

I agree moosie. I am the only interested party from my mates also in the same age bracket. I try and talk to them about investments etc and its like talking to a brick wall. One of them wants to know the best term deposit rate but thats it.

[JBmurc]

Yeah I do think many Kiwi just have far to much FEAR and miss-understanding on the share-markets many will put the likes of the recent Financial companies crashing in the same league as Shares etc ....got a couple mates that are into shares but every time there's a major pullback they do worry and think about removing all there funds ....I just have to keep reminding them to #1 keep diverse in investments #2 Sharemarket are very unloved on many historic levels .....

[Hoop]

......... When the property market capitulates, expect everyone and their dog to start trading shares again......
trading with what? ...all the money is lost due to property capitulation..
Greece Spain good examples..

[Hoop]

Well obviously the property market will lose favour as the markets do when they implode. There is nowhere else that will make "real" money as the markets. Nothing to shake the confidence of people with a massive blowout!

You have to have money before you can make money. Markets can only move upwards when there is enough money to create buying demand and if the markets are spooked then don't expect demand.

Also You have to think about both sides of the market equation Moosie ..you are thinking only the bullish side.

[Dej]

Same as moosie with me - if any of my friends are interested they invest in US rather than here, and then they all lose their money (one friend lost 75% of initial investment in under 6 months) they dont even think to look at the NZX which is a shame.

[Dej]

Yes the US market is very trader heavy and a totally different ball game to the NZX. I tell my father constantly to stop buying there and just invest here as he is awake at 4am some times in order to buy/sell at market time. He insists on playing biotech stock as well, which is utterly cut-throat. Even a young one like me refuses to get embroiled in that sector with the insane levels of risk they have!

A lot of people get caught up in the hype of massive returns by just doing very rudimentary TA (literally look if a graph is going up) and invest in it - never ends well! I like the NZX because it actually has a good balance between traders and fundies and isnt dominated by one. So you get a good education (we are always learning) from both sides of the coin.

[troyvdh]

Dear Major...me thinks is "D"...how many so called "pillours" of our society (more recently Banks/Brash) have found themselves deep-in-it.I do not blame folk avoiding financial mkts like the sharemarkets.
I/we have had a foot in both camps (prop-shares) for over 30 years.

Im surprised that some of the above continue to slag off property..there is probably a 50-100 property mkts out there....Moosie I do not think that people who are purchasing property (in more recent times partcularly in Auckland) can be seen as being property investors...more like reef fish.....

Sure property (res anyway) takes a bit of effort....but my ride with property in CHCH ..aint been bad at all....

[Under Surveillance]

I blame the fine weather. For some silly reason people want to be out in the fresh air, swimming, walking or whatever and making the most of it. Tends to help them clear their brains, see wood for trees. Maybe also to place an appropriate weight on the worth of views exchanged on this site, compared to doing their own thinking.

[CJ]

I do wonder what impact Kiwisaver is/will have. In its current form, people may consider their future is being looked after and there is nothing they need to do.

Self managed fund (like in Australia) could help as it gives an incentive to get involved.

[BIRMANBOY]

SO are you talking "punters" as in gamblers or are you talking investors? This site and forum has a heavy leaning to the trader/punter and lets be realistic most people are not astute enough to trade successsfully continually..neither do they have the time/experience necesserry to do it with any chance of beating the odds....result is they come and go. Maybe the Shareholders Assn has more going on? Shares and investings always has been restricted to those with money or an interest developed through uni studies as an example.. How do you grow that...has to be introduced into the secondary school curriculum so at least kids are exposed to the basics and how to avoid scams etc. The second element that could drive more interest is something that I experienced in the the US. Some companies have programs where you can register with them and bypass brokerages and just send in $50 or whatever when you like. So you buy 1.234 shares of Coca Cola as an example. The company keeps a track of all the details and adds in dividends as per usual. All at no charge. Benefits for the company is it makes their shares more widely accessible and little accorns grow into big trees. I had Central Maine Power and drip fed bits as I could afford it...2 years later had 200 odd shares. The last most important aspect is making sure new investors have success....nothing dries up interest faster than losing a heap on some mining spec stock. So training people as to the % probability of success being increased by CONSERVATIVE choices has got to be driven home.
Judging by the paucity of comments on, for example the FBU, TEL and CNU results one has to ask the questions

(a) why so little interest and by so few people? (another reason why the NZX is so much smaller than the ASX than you would expect on a population adjusted basis?)

(b) is there another site with a lot more comment and discussion?

(c) is this the result of too many terms of Labour government and welfare payments/Nat Super sapping people's initiative and energy and imagination?

(d) or is it the result of too many scams, frauds and crashes starting with 1987 and progressing through to the near total wipe-out of NZ's Finance company sector?

(e) NZ has over 4.5million people - number who have entered Paper Tiger's share competition (which costs nothing) from the whole of NZ - about 140..... quoi?

[Blendy]

excellent post.

[voltage]

birmanboy
Well put.
Just out of interest, how do you send money to the states? do you buy USA shares thru a NZ broker or other. interested if there is a straight forward way of doing this.

[BIRMANBOY]

I used to live over there..20 years one stint and 6 years another. Sold all my US shares when I left last time. Apart my "trader stock" which was a penny dreadfull ..Sooner farms Pork Bellies ...ho ho...That along with my Oil futures...cough cough!! If you are enquiring to hook up with companies that do this form of investor support..unfortunately i cant help you. However if you do some diligent googling and patient emailing you should get some results. As I said Central MAine Power did it... PS this was long time ago but have no reason to suspect still not being done.
birmanboy
Well put.
Just out of interest, how do you send money to the states? do you buy USA shares thru a NZ broker or other. interested if there is a straight forward way of doing this.

[ENP]

Judging by the paucity of comments on, for example the FBU, TEL and CNU results one has to ask the questions

Because FBU, TEL and CNU are rubbish companies that I wouldn't ever invest in.

So why should I discuss them?

[BIRMANBOY]

Thank you for sparing us from your comments...thats a win win all round.
Because FBU, TEL and CNU are rubbish companies that I wouldn't ever invest in.

So why should I discuss them?

[troyvdh]

Gee ENP....I sort of like comments like that...however....equally.....what companies do you like to invest in.....

I admit I have not viewed previous posts from you...so if you have posted companies that you would invest in I apologies....cheers...

[Major von Tempsky]

The 'splainin' is spelt T.R.O.L.L.
He's one of those people, like graffiti "artists", who go around seeking to elicit an angry reaction so they can chuckle to themselves and rejoin with an even more inflammatory response such as "all NZ shares are rubbish", or "all NZ is rubbish", or the "whole English speaking world is rubbish". The only solution is totally ignore and boycott them, they thrive on attention like some horrible cancer.

[troyvdh]

....Dear Major...I believe you need to be more direct/explicit...its obvious that you savour having a good "blow out"...bit like me really.
Please (like I do) go for a walk a ride perhaps....reflect....walk on a wet lawn...tread on some dog **** between the toes and rejoice you do not have a business/live in Cairo or Damascus....cheers barry

[BIRMANBOY]

Whats your secret? Being able to post (and Piss) whilst apparently claiming not to be alive.:ohmy:
To a great extent I agree with the poster. Im invested in one of them, FBU and am looking for a side door cause it is poorly managed,the other two i wouldnt piss on if i was alive.

[BIRMANBOY]

Whats that old saying...misery loves company?
Gee ENP....I sort of like comments like that...however....equally.....what companies do you like to invest in.....

I admit I have not viewed previous posts from you...so if you have posted companies that you would invest in I apologies....cheers...

[Stranger_Danger]

Troll or no troll, I have to agree with ENP.

Measured almost any way, TEL, CNU and FBU are crap companies.

Large, slow moving, being run to benefit management etc. The only upside is when a "rising tide" lifts them, which we've seen recently.

However if you're fairly young (I'm mid 30's, I suspect ENP is younger still) the job is to try and buy things at a low valuation that - all things being equal - you can hold for 10 or 20 years and they go up between 10 and a 100-fold. This isn't trading or flip flopping - I'm talking about trying to identify a good business, with good management, in a good industry, that can consistently allocate capital correctly and execute.

I'd be interested to hear which of TEL, CNU and FBU are a chance to achieve this in the coming decade?

[macduffy]

Getting back to the subject of the thread.

In a perverse sort of way, Kiwisaver has the unintended effect of lessening direct investment in the sharemarket by individuals. Why bother when using the Kiwisaver route attracts the govt subsidy and on-going employer contributions are added to the pot? The Aussies system of allowing self-managed schemes for those able to participate directly, may be worth considering.

[Major von Tempsky]

Well, none of FBU, TEL or CNU will be 10 baggers or 100 baggers. I don't hold FBU, did once, but its hopelessly overvalued at a P/E of well over 31 and its gross dividend yield is somewhat sickly. I have two friends who hold FBU, one bought at over $12, neither of them ever talk about FBU now ;-) Beats me how the price keeps going up - must be in response to momentum investing and all that crap charting stuff.

But if you are looking for sustainable very high gross dividend yields then TEL is your man and CNU maybe also, will be seen later this year, even better than TEL and with government protection against a downside...

[iceman]

Recent ASB survey said investors rate attractiveness of investments roughly as follows:
Direct share investments 7%
Rental property 17-24% depending on where in the country respondents lived
Managed funds 16%
Kiwsaver 15%
Term deposits/ other bank accounts 23%

There has been a slight increase in funds towards Kiwisaver and Managed Funds in the last couple of years so probably people have become a little less risk averse but still prefer someone else to manage share investments for them. That would be one factor in why so few seem interested in forums like this one.

[CJ]

Yes, very interesting. I have a Kiwisaver growth account (dedicated as much as possible to shares) and I use that as my conservative hedge investment (so these will be dedicated to the likes of TWR, FBU, CNU etc.). All my "free" money I have control of is dedicated to more risky/growth oriented ventures. A good combination I believe.I am starting to take this approach,moving away from safer shares in my personal portfolio as they are covered in the kiwisaver fund.

[BIRMANBOY]

"""The Aussies system of allowing self-managed schemes for those able to participate directly, may be worth considering.""" Yes but this relies on a certain amount/level of financial knowledge...good for those who are familiar with investing etc. Still needs to adress all those individuals who have no knowledge or desire to become self managed. HAs to be approached from a grass roots base....part of school curriculum as side issue in maths or accounting for example, brokerage houses and advisory firms should be ofering free/low cost night classes and on-line tutoring etc, etc. Has to be driven (or should be) by those who will benefit from advances in literacy. This means someone with some foresight and vision.
Getting back to the subject of the thread.

In a perverse sort of way, Kiwisaver has the unintended effect of lessening direct investment in the sharemarket by individuals. Why bother when using the Kiwisaver route attracts the govt subsidy and on-going employer contributions are added to the pot? The Aussies system of allowing self-managed schemes for those able to participate directly, may be worth considering.

[Hoop]

A quick summary from the todays NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10867745)
Quarterly ASB Survey Article

660 online interveiws aged 18 and over
Where to invest your money

Rental property 19%
Kiwisaver and Managed Funds 14%
Term Deposits ??%
Publicly Listed Shares 7%
Bank savings account 6%

Radio NZ news (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/129083/investors-maintain-confidence-asb-survey):...ASB's latest quarterly investor confidence survey shows sentiment unchanged for the last three months of 2012 from the September quarter, when confidence was at a net 13 points - the most optimistic it had been since 2010.

[Zaphod]

Getting back to the subject of the thread.

In a perverse sort of way, Kiwisaver has the unintended effect of lessening direct investment in the sharemarket by individuals. Why bother when using the Kiwisaver route attracts the govt subsidy and on-going employer contributions are added to the pot? The Aussies system of allowing self-managed schemes for those able to participate directly, may be worth considering.

In addition to the relatively attractive taxpayer subsidy, there also appears to be a complete misunderstanding amongst many in the populace who think that there money is 100% safe because Kiwisaver is a Government scheme.

Contrast that with the general views held about the stock market - a gamblers paradise.

[BIRMANBOY]

Putting aside your emotional and (incorrect) measurement of Tel anyway, the point which I would question in your post is your expectation that a "good" company will go up between 10 and hundred fold over a period of 10 or 20 years. What is missing is some recognition as other factors such as (1) what has inflation done to the relative worth of your capital in the meantime (2) Looking for high capital growth in shares will always produce some losers along with a few winners...so how does that help if you go up 10 fold in one and stay static in others and lose on a couple more? (3) over 10/20 years or so everything will go in cycles which will means some crashes probably. Agree with you about identification of good company and buying as low as possible etc but an investor would have to be a lucky, lucky supreme optimist to see your expectations realized.
Troll or no troll, I have to agree with ENP.

Measured almost any way, TEL, CNU and FBU are crap companies.

Large, slow moving, being run to benefit management etc. The only upside is when a "rising tide" lifts them, which we've seen recently.

However if you're fairly young (I'm mid 30's, I suspect ENP is younger still) the job is to try and buy things at a low valuation that - all things being equal - you can hold for 10 or 20 years and they go up between 10 and a 100-fold. This isn't trading or flip flopping - I'm talking about trying to identify a good business, with good management, in a good industry, that can consistently allocate capital correctly and execute.

I'd be interested to hear which of TEL, CNU and FBU are a chance to achieve this in the coming decade?

[macduffy]

"""The Aussies system of allowing self-managed schemes for those able to participate directly, may be worth considering.""" Yes but this relies on a certain amount/level of financial knowledge...good for those who are familiar with investing etc. Still needs to adress all those individuals who have no knowledge or desire to become self managed. HAs to be approached from a grass roots base....part of school curriculum as side issue in maths or accounting for example, brokerage houses and advisory firms should be ofering free/low cost night classes and on-line tutoring etc, etc. Has to be driven (or should be) by those who will benefit from advances in literacy. This means someone with some foresight and vision.

Of course!

I put that point forward as a possible contributing reason for the apparent lack of interest in direct equity investment in NZ. And to bring the discussion back to the point of the thread!

[BIRMANBOY]

Noble cause but ultimitely doomed for failure given the number of posters who have a propensity to change tack here and there. But a good thread and certainly worthy of channeling back. Obviously helps us all with greater numbers participating in share market. One thing I would be interested in is what level of overseas involvement is present in NZX. Anyone have that info?
Of course!

I put that point forward as a possible contributing reason for the apparent lack of interest in direct equity investment in NZ. And to bring the discussion back to the point of the thread!

[Stranger_Danger]

Birman - To answer your post, I have had many (double figures) investments go up more than 10 fold over the years.

However, you are dead right that sometimes there is very little difference between a superstar and a dud - I have probably had just as many fall by over 50%!

The appeal from my point of view is +1000%, -50%, +1300%, - 85%, +900%, -90% etc etc works out to be a hell of a lot more than buying large cap no growth dogs.

I take your point regarding risk - the risks are very real, but, I much prefer visible, honest risks I can see.

The real risk of a Telecom is it politely, slowly, destroys shareholder wealth.

[BIRMANBOY]

No doubt there are a few hardy souls who do well with the type of investments you are talking about. I would bring you back to the original thread (note this MAcDuffy) as to why/how does one increase share market participation. This boom/bust "investing" is NOT something you would encourage new participants, beginners and neophytes (and especially troglodytes) to get involved in is it? For every success there will be three failures. This will drive interest away for all but the most stubborn and resilient person. I also would assume your 1000% and 1300% gains are not "mainstream" blue chip stocks that carry considerably less risk but will be specs and cheapy ASX wannabes. These by there very nature are much riskier and how the average consumer would see this risk is questionable. To nurture interest the first rule is dont let them bleed. TEL is my most successfull, consistantly high yielding and most reliable investment..its all about timing isnt it? If you get in at the wrong time its crap...the right time its gold. Dont blame the company for bad timing...thats just bad luck or bad decisions!.
Birman - To answer your post, I have had many (double figures) investments go up more than 10 fold over the years.

However, you are dead right that sometimes there is very little difference between a superstar and a dud - I have probably had just as many fall by over 50%!

The appeal from my point of view is +1000%, -50%, +1300%, - 85%, +900%, -90% etc etc works out to be a hell of a lot more than buying large cap no growth dogs.

I take your point regarding risk - the risks are very real, but, I much prefer visible, honest risks I can see.

The real risk of a Telecom is it politely, slowly, destroys shareholder wealth.

[Silverlight]

Where have all the share punters gone?

Most short term or long term investors don't have time to write 50 comments a day if we are to be successful. We don't read too much into other peoples opinions as following anothers opinion relies on their research, and medium term "tips" trading never works out.

To your title, "Punters" never win, they lose, Sky City's profits year in year out prove that. So where have they all the investors gone? The successful ones concentrate on bigger markets, and make few comments about NZ, because there is not much to be said.

Once you state your view, why re-state it 20 times other than to see your own post on a page?

[BIRMANBOY]

Most of what you said ..ok agree. I do take some issue with your claim that success has to be found in other locations as opposed to the NZX. How do you define success? What is your expectation when you think about "investing". That ultimately defines sucess. Speaking for myself I am quite happy with the results that I get from the NZX. Considerably up on term deposits...which is my definition. I do consider myself as a conservative investor however so can understand someone who is searching for the "big bang" dissing the NZX as being too small to be of worth. Remember the original question was oriented to an apparent lack of energy/interest and why. All of interest since a growth in activity helps us all...whatever our niche is. PS if someone has time to write 50 comments does that make them (a) obviously slacking off from the task at hand or (b) a smart investor who has everything under control? Sort of hard to know isnt it;)
Most short term or long term investors don't have time to write 50 comments a day if we are to be successful. We don't read too much into other peoples opinions as following anothers opinion relies on their research, and medium term "tips" trading never works out.

To your title, "Punters" never win, they lose, Sky City's profits year in year out prove that. So where have they all the investors gone? The successful ones concentrate on bigger markets, and make few comments about NZ, because there is not much to be said.

Once you state your view, why re-state it 20 times other than to see your own post on a page?

[Vaygor1]

A quick summary from the todays NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10867745)
Quarterly ASB Survey Article

660 online interveiws aged 18 and over
Where to invest your money

Rental property 19%
Kiwisaver and Managed Funds 14%
Term Deposits ??%
Publicly Listed Shares 7%
Bank savings account 6%



Very interesting result Hoop. I assume a mix of male/female? I assume all those asked live or have lived in NZ? These are probably questions you can't answer.

Shows how much more liquid all of our shares could be if there was a higher %age of players in the game.

One of the main barriers that a new potential investor/trader faces is the vast amount of paperwork and proof required these days to even open an account. There's enough involved to sink a ship and many would-be's I am sure take a look and file it under L for later.

Also, just like the weather, all the media report are extreme events and they love the spectacular company collapse, everyone losing their money stories. Enough to scare the living bejeezus out of anyone contemplating the sharemarket.

[janner]

Very interesting result Hoop. I assume a mix of male/female? I assume all those asked live or have lived in NZ? These are probably questions you can't answer.

Shows how much more liquid all of our shares could be if there was a higher %age of players in the game.

One of the main barriers that a new potential investor/trader faces is the vast amount of paperwork and proof required these days to even open an account. There's enough involved to sink a ship and many would-be's I am sure take a look and file it under L for later.

Also, just like the weather, all the media report are extreme events and they love the spectacular company collapse, everyone losing their money stories. Enough to scare the living bejeezus out of anyone contemplating the sharemarket.

So true Vaygor. Not much mention in the media that Mainzeal is not a majority NZ company..

The subbies suffer as usual though.. They will not be spreading the glories of working for the big boys..

[ENP]

Telecom 2004-
4576 million revenue
775 million net profit
30.75 EPS
0.87 Book value per share
Share price around $6

Telecom 2013-
4192 million revenue
420 million net profit
21.90 EPS
0.87 book value per share
Share price around $2.3

Fletcher 2004-
3934 million revenue
240 million net profit
50.90 EPS
2.47 book value per share
Share price around $5

Fletcher 2013-
8873 million revenue
318 million net profit
46.70 EPS
5.23 book value per share
Share price around $8.80

Contact 2004-
1169 million revenue
144 million net profit
24.58 EPS
5.10 book value per share
Share price around $6

Contact 2013-
2680 million revenue
169 million net profit
23.93 EPS
4.76 book value per share
Share price around $5.30

Need I say more? Compare this to Ryman Healthcare and you get the picture.

[BIRMANBOY]

The side issue in the media reports has to be the lack of comment, positive spin and general good news that should be coming out of the NZX. Do they have a media officer? What are they doing? Its as quiet as the grave and just as compelling. Where is the NZX? I think its in Wellington but do they have open days? Who knows. Very little reaching out to community or potential customers that I'm aware of.
Very interesting result Hoop. I assume a mix of male/female? I assume all those asked live or have lived in NZ? These are probably questions you can't answer.

Shows how much more liquid all of our shares could be if there was a higher %age of players in the game.

One of the main barriers that a new potential investor/trader faces is the vast amount of paperwork and proof required these days to even open an account. There's enough involved to sink a ship and many would-be's I am sure take a look and file it under L for later.

Also, just like the weather, all the media report are extreme events and they love the spectacular company collapse, everyone losing their money stories. Enough to scare the living bejeezus out of anyone contemplating the sharemarket.

[janner]

They are taking a quiet approach. I like the quiet, confident ones. They are the best.


No ... No.. Do not be drawn in by any one..

The one recurring problem of lost money in the market is because people like the quiet confident ones IMO..

Drongo.. Do not be one... Do Your Own Research.. Look at this site for at least for at least three months of intensive reading.. Before you invest a dollar..

[BIRMANBOY]

Moosie, moosie, moosie....that sounds slightly salacious..but I'm not sure. Whats "flamingo-out" mean? Is that a Canuck indigenous term? I'm afraid to google it in case i end up on one of those sites that we shouldnt visit?

QUOTE=moosie_900;395054]I like loud, boisterous ones that like to flamingo-out... Oh wait, are we still talking about stocks???[/QUOTE]

[BIRMANBOY]

Could be Sparky..but I think you may be clutching at long hollow drinking accessories?

Could be a typo? "Flame-and-go-out?....[/QUOTE]

[BIRMANBOY]

Who would have thought...You learn something new each day on this forum. I remember seeing flocks of pink flamingos on some salt/lake flats in Bonaire in the Netherland Antilles. Beautifull gracefull creatures. But I'm diverting from the thread again...thanks for the new addition to my antiquated phrase book.
lol, if you Flamingo-out you are acting like a giant pink bird we all know too well. Loud and bright!

[Minerbarejet]

Think I'll flaming go out and beat my head against a brick wall.

[Minerbarejet]

Aah! Thats better. Walls in bad shape though.:ohmy:

MVT it looks like all the punters are out chasing flamingos ATM
They are around but struck with torpor due to the heat. Funny things going on with HNZ, PGW, CAV, AWE, but all great to watch unfold. Patience. Sold CAV. No div and up 8%

[BIRMANBOY]

I think these guys were at the same wall Major.
http://bammbamm.org/Visual/EVGA/Pink-Flamingos-35830.jpg


Aah! Thats better. Walls in bad shape though.:ohmy:

MVT it looks like all the punters are out chasing flamingos ATM
They are around but struck with torpor due to the heat. Funny things going on with HNZ, PGW, CAV, AWE, but all great to watch unfold. Patience. Sold CAV. No div and up 8%

[Minerbarejet]

I think I'll stick my neck out and say this is another Iranian Intelligence Photoshop stuffup. What it is actually is their latest drone for spying on Israel. Did you know the maker went round the bend trying to get it to flaming go.

[BIRMANBOY]

By this point MVT will have cleared the morning phlegm-ingoes from his throat and will be shaking his head at us hijacking his thread (again). Good laugh to start the day.
I think I'll stick my neck out and say this is another Iranian Intelligence Photoshop stuffup. What it is actually is their latest drone for spying on Israel. Did you know the maker went round the bend trying to get it to flaming go.

[Minerbarejet]

By this point MVT will have cleared the morning phlegm-ingoes from his throat and will be shaking his head at us hijacking his thread (again). Good laugh to start the day.
Have been ROFL since 10.42. MVT would probably expect a certain amount of off the cuff banter especially when things get a bit slow or uncertain - which gets us back to the market ( such as it is)
and I agree there doesn't seem to be much happening at NZX. I suppose they are hoping the IPOs from the Government will liven things up. What worries me is where are all the so called Mums and Dads going to find the dough for these offerings or any other IPO for that matter.

[BIRMANBOY]

Oh God another acronym whats ROFL? You can tell I'm not up with the play.. The money for the new IPO"s will come from the same old pool of people currently involved in investing.....they'll sell something and buy into these would be my guess. My earlier point was that there needs to be a concerted grass roots propaganda/education campaign waged by the NZX and the investment community to bring new blood into the field. Things like...10 reasons why investing in the share market/funds/ipo's will give you better returns/ more control/more flexibility as opposed to property/ racehorses/ etc.etc. At the moment all the media you see is negative. In my opinion the NZX should be driving this hard along with the brokerages. They are the ones who will benefit.
Have been ROFL since 10.42. MVT would probably expect a certain amount of off the cuff banter especially when things get a bit slow or uncertain - which gets us back to the market ( such as it is)
and I agree there doesn't seem to be much happening at NZX. I suppose they are hoping the IPOs from the Government will liven things up. What worries me is where are all the so called Mums and Dads going to find the dough for these offerings or any other IPO for that matter.

[janner]

Nope.. thats it.. I will have to flamin go if this is the best quality accepted ..

[janner]

Having said that..

WHAT WAS THE THREAD :-))

[Minerbarejet]

Oh God another acronym whats ROFL? You can tell I'm not up with the play.. The money for the new IPO"s will come from the same old pool of people currently involved in investing.....they'll sell something and buy into these would be my guess. My earlier point was that there needs to be a concerted grass roots propaganda/education campaign waged by the NZX and the investment community to bring new blood into the field. Things like...10 reasons why investing in the share market/funds/ipo's will give you better returns/ more control/more flexibility as opposed to property/ racehorses/ etc.etc. At the moment all the media you see is negative. In my opinion the NZX should be driving this hard along with the brokerages. They are the ones who will benefit. ROFL has been around a while-rolling on floor laughing usually .
Agree with most of this. One obvious point though is that if there is a large concerted effort that ends up being driven by a frenzied media, shoeshine boys and taxi drivers then it could appear that " the trumpets are blaring" and a lot of sellers will show up driving everything down again. Funny place the market - how many times has it done the opposite to what you think even taking the contrarian view.:(

[BIRMANBOY]

Thanks..one more factoid to add to my slowly expanding text speak. Yes good point. 1987 crash was a good example of unrestrained and uneducated enthusiasm. KEY has to be a focus on conservative as opposed to "fast buck" investing. If you look at all the online ads associated with "investing sites" buzz words of huge profits, massive growth, undiscovered gold mine. trade you way to millions...etc etc.. are the focus. We need to offer a more believable and credible alternative and hammer home the fact that the best investments typically grow slowly and reliably and are not to be found at the end of a "click here for overnight winners".
ROFL has been around a while-rolling on floor laughing usually .
Agree with most of this. One obvious point though is that if there is a large concerted effort that ends up being driven by a frenzied media, shoeshine boys and taxi drivers then it could appear that " the trumpets are blaring" and a lot of sellers will show up driving everything down again. Funny place the market - how many times has it done the opposite to what you think even taking the contrarian view.:(

[janner]

"click here for overnight winners".

Oh **** !!.. Are you telling me that I am not the only one on the entire internet privy to these exclusive messages ???

Would never have thunk that !!.. !!.. !!....

[BIRMANBOY]

oooh I can use it.....ROFL well for me that would be LOFL (lie)..I dont roll that well..dodgy knees, hips and shoulder!! Hey how can we as responsible citizens resist that sparkly, flashing neon call to riches. The present day sirens to the despairing and hopefull sailors that we are.
"click here for overnight winners".

Oh **** !!.. Are you telling me that I am not the only one on the entire internet privy to these exclusive messages ???

Would never have thunk that !!.. !!.. !!....

[janner]

oooh I can use it.....ROFL well for me that would be LOFL (lie)..I dont roll that well..dodgy knees, hips and shoulder!! Hey how can we as responsible citizens resist that sparkly, flashing neon call to riches. The present day sirens to the despairing and hopefull sailors that we are.

Dispairing Sailor.. ??.. Hahahaaa.. No.. I am not.. I never dispare.. Boy Seaman .. Royal Navy.. 936774.. Entry 15 years old..

Boy Seamen Ended in 1956... To brutal..

The then entry became JUNiOR SEAMEN.. age 17..
To late for me to carry on Burmaboy.. I have to appear at work 5.00am

I have mixed emotions.. The dams power lines were built on borrowings.. Pay them off move on for goodnes sake..

This was not a .. " move on " on advertisement paid for by the UN..
"

[Minerbarejet]

sparkly, flashing neon call to riches.
What - like Moosies flamingoes
:D

[CJ]

Back on topic, the SOE floats will be positive. All those property investors would be dumb not to throw $5k at it. They will see the nice pop and start doing a bit more research.

They won't dump property but a bit of diversification has to be a good thing. They may even see the NZX as a good way to enter commercial property.

[BIRMANBOY]

Yes good point...property shares sector were returning decent yields so some exposure might convert actual ownership to "proxy" ownership. Capital is certainly more liquid that way with less hassles I would imagine.
Back on topic, the SOE floats will be positive. All those property investors would be dumb not to throw $5k at it. They will see the nice pop and start doing a bit more research.

They won't dump property but a bit of diversification has to be a good thing. They may even see the NZX as a good way to enter commercial property.

[CJ]

Yes good point...property shares sector were returning decent yields so some exposure might convert actual ownership to "proxy" ownership. Capital is certainly more liquid that way with less hassles I would imagine.Yip - they could even gear up using the spare capacity in the Revolving Credit loans. Borrow at 5%, and get a 7%+ yeild plus capital growth - sounds like free money to me. Imputation credits will be a bit of a hassle unless they are making a taxable profit but with no depreciation on buildings, they should be now. Remember the good property investors are geared no more than 50% so have lots of capacity to have a play.

[Vaygor1]

FlamingO - Otherwise known as the 'Bird of the Burning Circle" according to RWH the now deceased historic Listener Cryptic Crossword writer.

More like too many burnt fingers according to the media releases re shares & stocks. 'Good news stories welcome' to all you Journo's out there. My ears are burning.

[BIRMANBOY]

Thats certainly cryptic..would have furrowed a few brows no doubt. Why are your ears burning? Guilt of some kind? Repent now and in public before you furrow mine any deeper than they already are.
FlamingO - Otherwise known as the 'Bird of the Burning Circle" according to RWH the now deceased historic Listener Cryptic Crossword writer.

More like too many burnt fingers according to the media releases re shares & stocks. 'Good news stories welcome' to all you Journo's out there. My ears are burning.

[Vaygor1]

My ears are burning for some Good News media stories concerning the Stockmarket.

Here is the general flavour of the press on the subject:

"Blah Blah Blah NZ stock XXX rises for YYY reason - What a Disaster."
"Blah Blah Blah NZ stock XXX falls for YYY reason - The sky has fallen too."
"Blah Blah Blah NZ stock XXX unchanged for YYY and ZZZ reasons - Doom."

They generally only report on the indices, or if it is on a specific Share, the movement or non-movement is put down to some vague overarching reason like "Due to Profit Taking" or "On the latest news regarding the Euro" etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... ad nauseam.

[BIRMANBOY]

Ahah..so you are yearning for the good news and burning at the lack of it. If you want to see some good comprehensive business and financial reporting have a look at the Wall St. Journal some time. Of course they have the benefit of scale. Must admit I have been impressed by the Sunday Star Times Business segment. HAve you seen that? The issue is of course ...these things are directed to those already participating. Also need to get it crossed over into standard news portions so reaches new ears (burning or not).
My ears are burning for some Good News media stories concerning the Stockmarket.

Here is the general flavour of the press on the subject:

"Blah Blah Blah NZ stock XXX rises for YYY reason - What a Disaster."
"Blah Blah Blah NZ stock XXX falls for YYY reason - The sky has fallen too."
"Blah Blah Blah NZ stock XXX unchanged for YYY and ZZZ reasons - Doom."

They generally only report on the indices, or if it is on a specific Share, the movement or non-movement is put down to some vague overarching reason like "Due to Profit Taking" or "On the latest news regarding the Euro" etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... ad nauseam.

[BIRMANBOY]

Yes exactly ...although I question how knowledgeable Moosie is about them...dont recall seeing flocks of them in The Canadian lakes.. He's probably better with beavers.
What - like Moosies flamingoes
:D

[Vaygor1]

Ahah..so you are yearning for the good news and burning at the lack of it. If you want to see some good comprehensive business and financial reporting have a look at the Wall St. Journal some time. Of course they have the benefit of scale. Must admit I have been impressed by the Sunday Star Times Business segment. HAve you seen that? The issue is of course ...these things are directed to those already participating. Also need to get it crossed over into standard news portions so reaches new ears (burning or not).

Your definition of Burning Ears might be different from mine, but I thought ears could burn for any reason... good, bad, or indifferent.

I don't live in NZ and are currently switching countries so no access to Sunday Star Times.. (internet edition available?). Although, I did land in NZ last night and here for almost a month so is nice to be in the same timezone as the majority of forum contributors.

Not too many beavers in this part of the world.

[BIRMANBOY]

Oh..a real live jet-setting international or returning home? Interested if you are active in NZ market or scoping out possibilities? And how does it compare to your "normal "country of residence in regards to Share/stock markets? Sunday Star Times has digital down load available and they have a seven day trial subscription before they want money. You have to sign up. http://fairfaxmedia.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx


Your definition of Burning Ears might be different from mine, but I thought ears could burn for any reason... good, bad, or indifferent.

I don't live in NZ and are currently switching countries so no access to Sunday Star Times.. (internet edition available?). Although, I did land in NZ last night and here for almost a month so is nice to be in the same timezone as the majority of forum contributors.

Not too many beavers in this part of the world.

[Minerbarejet]

Your definition of Burning Ears might be different from mine, but I thought ears could burn for any reason... good, bad, or indifferent.

I don't live in NZ and are currently switching countries so no access to Sunday Star Times.. (internet edition available?). Although, I did land in NZ last night and here for almost a month so is nice to be in the same timezone as the majority of forum contributors.

Not too many beavers in this part of the world.
First of all its flamingoes and now its flaming beavers. We wont go into that.:D
Whats with this thread?

[Major von Tempsky]

The Sunday Star Times financial section is ....variable.
There are some very good contributors and some very bad contributors (Rod Oram - a paid up member of the Labour Party and it colours every thing he writes, luckily they have now permanently consigned him to the back page - just after the ads). Overall the emphasis is on frauds, scams, bankruptcies, liquidations - all negative things and in the past.
I'm looking how to make money and the future and only secondarily how not to lose money and the I think the vast majority of readers have got enough between the ears to look at all the frauds, scams, bankruptcies and liquidations with open disbelief - how could anyone be so stupid? And why do they take up most of the financial section?

[BIRMANBOY]

Thats the nature of reporting/journalisn..focus is on what has already happened and the analysis of it and not prepared to speculate on future. I dont know whether any of the writers are full time business analysts and putting in 40 hours or are they just paid by the article or nuimber of words they write. I would imagine to gain or get what you want would require firstly considerable experience and a generous amount of time and lastly lack of fear from "calling it wrong". That may be too much to ask. Someone said..if you want to sell lots of newspapers have a disaster on page one and some tits on page three. Take your point however if its any consolation The Sunday Star Times business section is way better than the Dom Post here in Wellington.
The Sunday Star Times financial section is ....variable.
There are some very good contributors and some very bad contributors (Rod Oram - a paid up member of the Labour Party and it colours every thing he writes, luckily they have now permanently consigned him to the back page - just after the ads). Overall the emphasis is on frauds, scams, bankruptcies, liquidations - all negative things and in the past.
I'm looking how to make money and the future and only secondarily how not to lose money and the I think the vast majority of readers have got enough between the ears to look at all the frauds, scams, bankruptcies and liquidations with open disbelief - how could anyone be so stupid? And why do they take up most of the financial section?

[Major von Tempsky]

I wonder why the NZX is crashing today? Dow Jones was up moderately overnight. Is the NZ dollar doing something startling today?
Have the people sipping lattes in cafes suddenly realised that NZ lives off its farms and there's a big drought on?

[Xerof]

Probably the punters selling up to be in on the Sky TV discount offer.....

[Major von Tempsky]

Or selling off so everybody has $2,000 in their little hot hand for the Mighty River Power float?

[macduffy]

Or selling off so everybody has $2,000 in their little hot hand for the Mighty River Power float?

I doubt that's the reason!

The Aussie market is also down 1.3%. The AFR put that down to a slide in commodities prices. NZ's a case of "follow the leader"?

:cool:

[Vaygor1]

Oh..a real live jet-setting international or returning home? Interested if you are active in NZ market or scoping out possibilities? And how does it compare to your "normal "country of residence in regards to Share/stock markets? Sunday Star Times has digital down load available and they have a seven day trial subscription before they want money. You have to sign up.http://fairfaxmedia.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

Thanks for the Sunday Star Times sign-up info BirmanBoy. Much appreciated.

This is an excerpt from one of my posts in Newbies Corner responding to a question regarding NZ vs AUS stocks/shares:
Exchange rate risk. Why take it? Unless you plan on retiring in Australia you will want to bring your money back one day. You might win on Forex or you might lose. For me, there are plenty of opportunities in NZ. If I can remove a risk then I remove it. Forex is one of those risks.

I fully intend to retire in NZ so for the above reason I stick to the stocks in the NZX. Frankly, I intensely dislike Forex risk. It gives me the screaming Jimmy Jams.

In terms of Jet-setting, yes I have been all over the planet. Left NZ for an (at the time) indeterminable time period kicking off with a 1 year world trip and it has dragged on now for the lions share of a decade, working in various countries and meeting all and sundry of the world's cultures... it has been a hell of a blast . Won't be away for much longer as my parents age/health are beginning to weigh more strongly on my ever increasing desire to come back to this wonderful country.

In line with the above, I have scoped out a fair number of companies listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange. I am quite keen on buying an apartment in a condo complex there and they don't come cheap. So strategically, may invest in SGX companies (already have funds in SGD from working there, and since Jan 2010 SGD has been pretty consistent as 1:1 with the NZD. Also SGD is tied 1:1 to the BND) and buy an apartment in Singapore. Forex risk nil (or minimal if I have to shift funds).

In comparison of NZX to other stock markets, I don't really look at it like that apart from the ease (or lack of ease) in setting up and transacting shares. I always look at individual companies that I might invest in and never invest in managed funds or indices so it all comes down to each country's ease of doing business. NZ and Singapore lead the world in this respect, seriously.

Currently on the move from the Middle East to South East Asia (not Singapore this time). In NZ for 28 days on holiday to see the parents and friends. First visit back here in 2 years. Can't complain about the weather but feel sorry for the farmers re such a long dry spell.

[BIRMANBOY]

Thats a great story and I hope inspiring for younger people. Wonderfull to get out and see the world, experience the different cultures and still remain rooted (in the literal sense) to NZ. You obviously have a vision and drive...good fortune for the rest of the journey
Thanks for the Sunday Star Times sign-up info BirmanBoy. Much appreciated.

This is an excerpt from one of my posts in Newbies Corner responding to a question regarding NZ vs AUS stocks/shares:
Exchange rate risk. Why take it? Unless you plan on retiring in Australia you will want to bring your money back one day. You might win on Forex or you might lose. For me, there are plenty of opportunities in NZ. If I can remove a risk then I remove it. Forex is one of those risks.

I fully intend to retire in NZ so for the above reason I stick to the stocks in the NZX. Frankly, I intensely dislike Forex risk. It gives me the screaming Jimmy Jams.

In terms of Jet-setting, yes I have been all over the planet. Left NZ for an (at the time) indeterminable time period kicking off with a 1 year world trip and it has dragged on now for the lions share of a decade, working in various countries and meeting all and sundry of the world's cultures... it has been a hell of a blast . Won't be away for much longer as my parents age/health are beginning to weigh more strongly on my ever increasing desire to come back to this wonderful country.

In line with the above, I have scoped out a fair number of companies listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange. I am quite keen on buying an apartment in a condo complex there and they don't come cheap. So strategically, may invest in SGX companies (already have funds in SGD from working there, and since Jan 2010 SGD has been pretty consistent as 1:1 with the NZD. Also SGD is tied 1:1 to the BND) and buy an apartment in Singapore. Forex risk nil (or minimal if I have to shift funds).

In comparison of NZX to other stock markets, I don't really look at it like that apart from the ease (or lack of ease) in setting up and transacting shares. I always look at individual companies that I might invest in and never invest in managed funds or indices so it all comes down to each country's ease of doing business. NZ and Singapore lead the world in this respect, seriously.

Currently on the move from the Middle East to South East Asia (not Singapore this time). In NZ for 28 days on holiday to see the parents and friends. First visit back here in 2 years. Can't complain about the weather but feel sorry for the farmers re such a long dry spell.