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duncan macgregor
31-03-2013, 08:02 AM
Companies tell lies before going belly up with little warning making share investing a risky business at times. Govts get into wars, and take your bank deposits giving in return worthless bonds. The new one is to stop the country going bankrupt as in Cyprus at the moment, they only take 37.5% of the money above100,000 thousand Euros giving in return worthless bank bonds. It might sound extreme but stacking your money under the mattress might not be as stupid as it sounds. The hate thing the GOVT has about property is they havent found a legitimate way to steal it when it all hits the fan. I really think the system will hit the fan in the next couple of decades with massive financial upheaval during the process. The safest way out is property where the GOVT cant get their greedy hands on it to redistribute it to the masses rioting in the streets. Will it happen here or not?,time will tell but we are hurtling down that track right now so buy that property. Pay the house off, get away from the danger area which is money speculated or sitting in the bank like a big ripe juicy apple waiting to get pinched by the kid next door. Macdunk

fungus pudding
31-03-2013, 08:15 AM
Companies tell lies before going belly up with little warning making share investing a risky business at times. Govts get into wars, and take your bank deposits giving in return worthless bonds. The new one is to stop the country going bankrupt as in Cyprus at the moment, they only take 37.5% of the money above100,000 thousand Euros giving in return worthless bank bonds. It might sound extreme but stacking your money under the mattress might not be as stupid as it sounds. The hate thing the GOVT has about property is they havent found a legitimate way to steal it when it all hits the fan. Macdunk

Oh yes they have. Your fee simple title can be changed making all freehold property leasehold with a mere stroke of the political pen, legitimately.

JBmurc
31-03-2013, 11:46 AM
Don,t forget rates / property tax ....bullion is my fave form of savings

Stranger_Danger
01-04-2013, 06:57 AM
The key take away from Cyprus is not bank account bad/property good.

The key take away is that desperate Governments will go after whatever the deepest pool of capital is, as we continue to pretend that the current system isn't morally and practically bankrupt.

In Cyprus, that was cash in banks held due to it's tax haven status.

In Australia, it is the superannuation funds - which is why debate has started about more taxes on the "wealthy" in this regard.

And in New Zealand? Why, it is residential property, which is why we're hearing things about land taxes, which is why Central Govt wants more control over Local Govt and its rating powers and why National started to tinker with property taxation.

The Cyprus situation is worth paying attention to, but don't learn the wrong lesson! Governments will go after the biggest and easiest to get pools of wealth to solve their problems.

In NZ that is illiquid, immobile residential property. Just watch.

minimoke
10-04-2013, 08:48 PM
hope your right but at this stage they have with the red zoning of sections (bare land) and then paying 50%.
Thats not right. Owners have the option of not selling. I've lost a couple of red zone properties so am a bit biased I reckon 50% for land is not a bad offer given the alternative. Your argument probably has more substance for the properties in The Frame which are likely to be compulsory acquired.

Casa del Energia
16-04-2013, 04:19 PM
Companies tell lies before going belly up with little warning making share investing a
[sic}
danger area which is money speculated or sitting in the bank like a big ripe juicy apple waiting to get pinched by the kid next door. Macdunk

Property is an abstract concept (whereas Land is not abstract). Ownership of property is not in law of nature. It’s an agreement between two parties to act in a defined manner with that property. This is exactly the same as a bank deposit, company share or a bar of gold.
Any government can change any agreement by fiat – and they often do. SO..it is wrong to pronounce ‘property’ as inherently inalienable due to some intrinsic residual particular to property because, as I have shown, there is nothing in the right of property ownership that is different.

Only a hermit that is successful can be certain of never being taxed.

Vaygor1
16-04-2013, 04:47 PM
Don,t forget rates / property tax ....bullion is my fave form of savings

I prefer diamonds.
Less fungible by miles, but far more transportable.
There is a catch though... with diamonds, you need to know your stuff.

BIRMANBOY
16-04-2013, 08:29 PM
When you get an hour or two..could you translate that into something understandable to the average citizen. I fear any points of intelligence have been lost among unconnected and suspect thinking. E.G. property is not abstract..its defineable and identifiable. ETC.
Property is an abstract concept (whereas Land is not abstract). Ownership of property is not in law of nature. It’s an agreement between two parties to act in a defined manner with that property. This is exactly the same as a bank deposit, company share or a bar of gold.
Any government can change any agreement by fiat – and they often do. SO..it is wrong to pronounce ‘property’ as inherently inalienable due to some intrinsic residual particular to property because, as I have shown, there is nothing in the right of property ownership that is different.

Only a hermit that is successful can be certain of never being taxed.

BIRMANBOY
16-04-2013, 08:43 PM
Good thinking Vaygor however Technology is advancing fast and synthesized diamonds are being produced in more locations and larger sizes so as a long term investment would need some care. There is every chance at some point the cost of manufacturing will substantially fall due to scientific advances. On the other side the costs of naturally mined diamonds are gradually rising. At the moment Synthetic Diamonds are available and marketed as such. Questions have to be asked as to how long the ethics of the sellers will remain. Extremely difficult to separate synthetic from natural unless you have a lab, specialized training and expensive equipment. But as an easily stored, readily transportable and stable storage of value they have always been appreciated.
I prefer diamonds.
Less fungible by miles, but far more transportable.
There is a catch though... with diamonds, you need to know your stuff.

Casa del Energia
17-04-2013, 02:46 PM
When you get an hour or two..could you translate that into something understandable to the average citizen. I fear any points of intelligence have been lost among unconnected and suspect thinking. E.G. property is not abstract..its defineable and identifiable. ETC.

Apart from my grammar errors – I thought it was reasonably crystalline. Nevertheless – here’s a clarification:

Firstly definitions..

“Property” - A piece of real estate, Something tangible or intangible to which its owner has legal title.
‘Land’ - The part of the earth's surface that is not covered by water.

And then a climb up the logic tree...

Land can be defined by measuring it directly – e.g. surface area, altitude, soil composition.
Property (in this case) is land to which someone has ownership rights. The attributes of ‘Land’ are tangible and can be measured with instruments (e.g a tape measure). The attributes of ‘property’ includes LEGAL TITLE – which is an agreement between two parties.
An agreement is an abstract concept – a legal tile is therefore abstract, and since legal title is an attribute of ‘property’ – it then becomes abstract itself.

Now for the rave from the pulpit..

AND so.. this is the point to my argument countering that Property is ‘safe’ because you have title to it and therefore can’t be taken away (easily, but then talk to NA Indians and see how that doesn’t really work). There is a MISCONCEPTION out there that because ‘Property’ = ‘Land’ and is as ‘safe as houses’ and is somehow completely immune to anything others can do. This is just plain illogical and woolly thinking.

Let's go one step further ..

In the final wash up and when you boil it all down – there is no difference between cash (bank deposits, pound notes, Dong, ding ding, duro effectivo, lucre etc. and so on, etc. etc.) and property (!). Money is TRUELY and irrefutably abstract is it not ? (If it isn’t then try explaining how it is created – or even better get a banker to explain how it’s created (and I bet you they don’t know)). So at a fundamental level – there is no difference in ‘safety’ between ‘Property’ and Cash as an asset class. Both are agreements between people – both are abstract.

Still not convinced?..

Go to Google maps, get the sat image of your house up on the screen. Who owns it? What is the mortgage?, how much are the rates? Is that driveway cross leased? Can’t tell? Well, that is because satellites only photograph the tangible and cannot record an ABTRACT CONCEPT.
And that is where the whole argument turns – the next time that satellite passes over, if the owner been biffed out by way of a mortgagee sale (or people’s revolution – please pick your favourite way of being dispossessed) – the satellite image will not change because the LAND will be the same ( but the PROPERTY will be in different hands).

BIRMANBOY
17-04-2013, 03:59 PM
You seem to be under the impression that the more you write, the more valid it becomes. A good arguement/debate should not be measured in words expended but in attempting to compress ideas and concepts into the most compact readily understood format. Your attempt to prove that property is abstract fails because your logic tree is trying to draw a direct line where none exists. i.e. Property to land to legal title to agreement..are all real not abstract. An agreement is enforceable by law and only your definition would call it abstract. BY "calling" it abstract you then allow yourself to go back up your tree so you can call property "abstract". As they say...No way Jose...El casa del Energia no tiene sufficiente gasolina para este exposicion.
Apart from my grammar errors – I thought it was reasonably crystalline. Nevertheless – here’s a clarification:

Firstly definitions..

“Property” - A piece of real estate, Something tangible or intangible to which its owner has legal title.
‘Land’ - The part of the earth's surface that is not covered by water.

And then a climb up the logic tree...

Land can be defined by measuring it directly – e.g. surface area, altitude, soil composition.
Property (in this case) is land to which someone has ownership rights. The attributes of ‘Land’ are tangible and can be measured with instruments (e.g a tape measure). The attributes of ‘property’ includes LEGAL TITLE – which is an agreement between two parties.
An agreement is an abstract concept – a legal tile is therefore abstract, and since legal title is an attribute of ‘property’ – it then becomes abstract itself.

Now for the rave from the pulpit..

AND so.. this is the point to my argument countering that Property is ‘safe’ because you have title to it and therefore can’t be taken away (easily, but then talk to NA Indians and see how that doesn’t really work). There is a MISCONCEPTION out there that because ‘Property’ = ‘Land’ and is as ‘safe as houses’ and is somehow completely immune to anything others can do. This is just plain illogical and woolly thinking.

Let's go one step further ..

In the final wash up and when you boil it all down – there is no difference between cash (bank deposits, pound notes, Dong, ding ding, duro effectivo, lucre etc. and so on, etc. etc.) and property (!). Money is TRUELY and irrefutably abstract is it not ? (If it isn’t then try explaining how it is created – or even better get a banker to explain how it’s created (and I bet you they don’t know)). So at a fundamental level – there is no difference in ‘safety’ between ‘Property’ and Cash as an asset class. Both are agreements between people – both are abstract.

Still not convinced?..

Go to Google maps, get the sat image of your house up on the screen. Who owns it? What is the mortgage?, how much are the rates? Is that driveway cross leased? Can’t tell? Well, that is because satellites only photograph the tangible and cannot record an ABTRACT CONCEPT.
And that is where the whole argument turns – the next time that satellite passes over, if the owner been biffed out by way of a mortgagee sale (or people’s revolution – please pick your favourite way of being dispossessed) – the satellite image will not change because the LAND will be the same ( but the PROPERTY will be in different hands).

JBmurc
18-05-2013, 06:52 PM
I prefer diamonds.
Less fungible by miles, but far more transportable.
There is a catch though... with diamonds, you need to know your stuff.

As too why i like bullion esp. ....for a metal to be bullion it must be made by a registered refiner/mint & pure 999%

Not a fan of diamonds as a investment at all,,,, but whatever floats your boat

duncan macgregor
24-05-2013, 09:04 AM
Property is always sold as the size with the words more or less added, simply because farm size properties cant be accurately measured. Ex being, a large size flat property with a hill in the middle is bigger than a similar property without a hill. The people buying property before GST have got a 15% bonus. We now have the most ridiculous building standards and rules in place that including GST, has raised the cost of building a house up at least 25% higher than the early seventies. Why did it all go wrong?. The simple answer is the people making the rules know nothing about the subject. It used to amuse me to see before leaky homes become the big thing, the house of the year awards going to what I considered very suspect homes. No leaky homes before the early seventies before building codes were changed for the worst. The govt in its wisdom dare not steal your property the way it steals money from your bank interest, or nationalise your company in the so called interest of the community. Property might not be as safe as before, but it still beats your other investments in the expected financial turmoil in the future. Macdunk

Skol
13-08-2013, 07:22 AM
As too why i like bullion esp. ....for a metal to be bullion it must be made by a registered refiner/mint & pure 999%

Not a fan of diamonds as a investment at all,,,, but whatever floats your boat

Auckland property beats bullion, easily, and will continue to do so. And you get rent!


http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9032745/Three-more-years-of-housing-heat-tipped

STRAT
15-08-2013, 01:59 PM
You seem to be under the impression that the more you write, the more valid it becomes. A good arguement/debate should not be measured in words expended but in attempting to compress ideas and concepts into the most compact readily understood format. Your attempt to prove that property is abstract fails because your logic tree is trying to draw a direct line where none exists. i.e. Property to land to legal title to agreement..are all real not abstract. An agreement is enforceable by law and only your definition would call it abstract. BY "calling" it abstract you then allow yourself to go back up your tree so you can call property "abstract". As they say...No way Jose...El casa del Energia no tiene sufficiente gasolina para este exposicion.Hi Birmaboy. I thought Casa del Energia gave a decent summery of just how abstract a Deed/Title to a bit of dirt and what sits on it actually is.

Let me tell you about my investment property in Syria :eek2:

BIRMANBOY
15-08-2013, 04:52 PM
Syria huh? This is what Eric the clapper said about it.
Eric Clapton (July 1985, Guitar Player):
When asked whether the Gibson is still his ‘blues’ guitar: “In some respects, yeah. When I get up there onstage, I often go through a great deal of indecision, even while I’m playing. If I’ve got the black Strat on and I’m in the middle of a blues, I’m kind of going, ‘Aw, I wish I had the Les Paul.’ Then again, if I were playing the Les Paul, the sound would be great, but I’d going ‘Man, I wish I had the Strat neck.’ I’m always caught in the middle of those two guitars. I’ve always liked the Freddie King / BB King rich tone. At the same time, I like the manic Buddy Guy / Otis Rush Strat tone. You can get somewhere in the middle, and that’s usually what I end up doing, trying to find a happy medium. But it’s bloody anguish.”

Heres another one should hold its value better than Syria.
You Can Buy Land in Scotland & Become a Lord or Lady From £29.99http://www.highlandtitles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/photo-map.jpg (http://www.highlandtitles.com/your-plot/)Scottish landowners have long been called Lairds (Lords) and Ladies, and now you can become a titled landowner (http://www.highlandtitles.com/buy-your-plot/) too with plots starting at £29.99 for one square foot.
You can also buy much larger plots of land – the perfect gift for someone with Scottish ancestry or for those who are passionate about conservation.
You can see what our customers think by reading our reviews (http://www.trustpilot.co.uk/review/www.highlandtitles.com) on Trustpilot. As you will see, our gift packs are as beautiful as the land we sell!
Click here to read a list of FAQ’s (http://www.highlandtitles.com/faqs/)


Hi Birmaboy. I thought Casa del Energia gave a decent summery of just how abstract a Deed/Title to a bit of dirt and what sits on it actually is.

Let me tell you about my investment property in Syria :eek2:

STRAT
17-08-2013, 09:01 AM
Hi B
Scottland. eh?
Of course you do realize a Title is an abstract concept and only of value if there are other people around who will accept and adhere to it.

Eric C. Hmmm.
Not sure what this has to do with Syria or abstract concepts but get him to click on the link at the bottom of my posts and all doubt will leave him. He will slip into his next blues solo relaxed and sure his tone is crisp powerful and full of soul.

Disc : Do love the Les Paul.

PS a bit worried as to the value of the deed to my bungalow in Egypt too.

BIRMANBOY
17-08-2013, 10:15 AM
I'm a bit worried about your choice of investment property Strat..next you'll be telling me you own a condo in Fukashima, apartments in Bopal, residential complex in low-lying ground in New Orleans and a four star luxury property in Chernobyl. All of little value but probably with valid title. Gibson EB3 bass was my weapon of mass destruction many moons past... (68) Fenders frets were too long for agile movement. Fender probably would have deflected more tear gas canisters in Egypt however since the Gibson was hollow. Now theres a good investment ...forget shares and property..classic guitars and musical instruments would be the way to go. Bought my Gibson for 200 odd (us) and sold it 5/6 years later for 500 Nz as I recall. Probable lost on the exchange rate but its a good story anyway.
Hi B
Scottland. eh?
Of course you do realize a Title is an abstract concept and only of value if there are other people around who will accept and adhere to it.

Eric C. Hmmm.
Not sure what this has to do with Syria or abstract concepts but get him to click on the link at the bottom of my posts and all doubt will leave him. He will slip into his next blues solo relaxed and sure his tone is crisp powerful and full of soul.

Disc : Do love the Les Paul.

PS a bit worried as to the value of the deed to my bungalow in Egypt too.

Valuegrowth
31-08-2013, 03:30 PM
Globally property prices in some cities are overvalued now. Some of the cities having over priced properties are leading cities in India, London, Hong Kong Singapore, and Auckland, leading cities in Australia such as Sydney, Melbourne, Leading cities in Canada such as Toronto, Ottawa and leading cities in China. Remember still property prices will go up in the above cities and it will lead to next asset bubble.

My ideas are not a recommendation to either buy or sell any security, property, commodity or currency. Please do your own research prior to making any investment decisions

janner
31-08-2013, 09:04 PM
Globally property prices in some cities are overvalued now. Some of the cities having over priced properties are leading cities in India, London, Hong Kong Singapore, and Auckland, leading cities in Australia such as Sydney, Melbourne, Leading cities in Canada such as Toronto, Ottawa and leading cities in China. Remember still property prices will go up in the above cities and it will lead to next asset bubble.

My ideas are not a recommendation to either buy or sell any security, property, commodity or currency. Please do your own research prior to making any investment decisions

Thank you MARKETWINNER for that timely warning..

Will now focus on buying up all the available property in Nightcaps.. Southland.. Must be on a MARKETWINNER with those prices ..

Might even be able to get percy to oversee and take care of my interests.. Seeing that Christchurch is such a depressed area..

What say you percy ??.. Commission !! 2.5% of 5 eigths of F@£% A*& :-))

Skol
10-09-2013, 07:03 AM
Figures released by Quotable Value today show that Auckland house prices are up 13.1% in the past year and 34.6% since the last market trough in March 2009. That compares with a 1% decrease in the median family income in Auckland in the past year and an 8% increase since 2009. House prices in Auckland continued to accelerate in the last month despite the Reserve Bank’s announcement of the introduction of Loan-to-Value Ratios.
-------------------------------------------

Just out today. The usual BS from Labour and the Greens how they're going to control the housing market with a CGT. No one ever put a tax on anything I know of that drove the price down.

duncan macgregor
17-09-2013, 07:53 AM
Wheeler is hoping his bag of tricks is going to bring house price inflation down to 4-5%, not to mention the OCR rising sooner than thought and banks cherry-picking who to lend to. The bubbles going to start slowing down soon. Sad I am much too young to have bought in at the bottom, but there is always money to be made elsewhere. Hope selling out when the market slows down/goes down works out for ya Skol ;) The people that waited on the bubble bursting before buying in have all died of old age. If the economy collapses and money is worth nothing then property is one of the few assets worth owning. The reason house prices are so high is GST first of all followed by the ridiculous cost of compliance which adds at least 30%on top of the 1960 level of a new home. The cost of houses in my experience goes up on average 10% a year regardless of short term trends. I expect the people waiting to time the market will remain without a property and die of old age as they have always done. Short term solution for first home buyers let them claim back the GST on their first home to add to the deposit payable back on the sale. macdunk

skid
29-12-2013, 09:18 AM
Everything goes up and down--so far Auckland has been doing well (location-location-location)-some other parts of the country-not so well.
Then of course theres equity-If you are up to your eyeballs in debt-leveraging a string of houses on the one before--you could be on dangerous ground.
Cant complain though-i bought(when you could)for affordable prices mostly because aside from the necessary need of a roof over your head,you can put energy into a house and increase its value,Then saved-saved and bought another with big deposit,fixed up,etc. and now almost accidentally Im doing ok--IMHO whether you buy now and save or save and buy -saving is an important factor--PAY DOWN THAT MORTGAGE

In4a$
30-12-2013, 07:32 AM
Auckland property beats bullion, easily, and will continue to do so. And you get rent!


http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9032745/Three-more-years-of-housing-heat-tipped
Problem with property and rent, is every one you buy, you prevent some young family and or first home buyer from buying. Then you try and make money from charging them rent. To much like taking advantage of those less fortunate than yourself. Best have a clear conscience and invest in shares, and then you are helping the country grow.

couta1
30-12-2013, 09:28 PM
A friend of mine suggested I buy a rental after hearing of my Chorus loss, I told him I can get a much better return from Summerset and Ryman without the hassle of worrying about tenants oh and I don't live in Auckland

In4a$
31-12-2013, 08:19 AM
I was seeking advice on property investements from my old boss in the 80's (very succesful farmer & businessman) and he said,
" it's much better to loan a man the money to buy a house than have him as your tenant. You'll get a bigger return financially and mentally". "Or put your money into a business and create wealth and jobs, creating something will give you bigger rewards".

iceman
04-02-2014, 09:02 AM
Problem with property and rent, is every one you buy, you prevent some young family and or first home buyer from buying. Then you try and make money from charging them rent. To much like taking advantage of those less fortunate than yourself.

That's nonsense In4a$. A rental property is a legitimate and good part of an investment portfolio alongside shares, bonds and TDs.
For an example, I have rental properties and use one of them to provide housing for newly arrived refugee families, who can not afford to buy their own homes. I feel good about it and not at all like I am "taking advantage of those less fortunate" ! Quite to the contrary actually.

fungus pudding
04-02-2014, 09:33 AM
I was seeking advice on property investements from my old boss in the 80's (very succesful farmer & businessman) and he said,
" it's much better to loan a man the money to buy a house than have him as your tenant. You'll get a bigger return financially and mentally". "Or put your money into a business and create wealth and jobs, creating something will give you bigger rewards".

Nobody can be right all the time.

In4a$
07-02-2014, 03:34 PM
Nobody can be right all the time.

He was right that time,

fungus pudding
07-02-2014, 03:45 PM
He was right that time,

Such a wide and wild generalisation could hardly be right as often as it is wrong.

In4a$
07-02-2014, 04:18 PM
Such a wide and wild generalisation could hardly be right as often as it is wrong.
Oh to true, but for me it was right. And for many others to, i bet.
To many NZ,s been sucked in by the banks & real estate agents saying residential rental properties are the only way to go. Sure many have done ok but many have suffered, particuarly 1st home owners, and it hasnt been good for the economy as a whole. IMHO
Morally i think my old boss,s comment remains valid,. He invested in commercial property as have I. Leave the houses to homeowners.