Co-Op Bank New zealand

[percy]

Hi winner69,your own thread,go for it.
lol.

[Snow Leopard]

So you can't buy shares in it and they don't do share brokerage.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[percy]

So you can't buy shares in it and they don't do share brokerage.

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

I feel the same,it is a waste of time talking about them,yet winner69 finds plenty to talk about them on HNZ thread.I just wonder who owns them.If it is a true Co-Op ,will members have deep enough pockets to recap it should they run into trouble> ? I would expect the risks would be a lot greater than a listed Bank such as ANZ,Westpac or Heartland who have shareholders they can call on.

[winner69]

Only mention them now and again because they compete with Heartland for retail investors deposits - both using a NZ ownership / local message

Can 'invest' in them by lending them money .... a coop model that has some empathy with the concept that the worlds problems today are caused by greedy capitalists

[percy]

Only mention them now and again because they compete with Heartland for retail investors deposits - both using a NZ ownership / local message

Can 'invest' in them by lending them money .... a coop model that has some empathy with the concept that the worlds problems today are caused by greedy capitalists

Yeah Right.!!!

[winner69]

I think this could more comfortably sit in the NZDX thread, as it is more a discussion over debt than equity (even if it can't be traded)

Seems like the appropriate palce for comment is actually the HNZ thread after all .... keeping an eye on the competition

Like will the Bank of India have any impact on Heartland

Or is our thinking about Heartland so blinkered there is only one story

[Lizard]

If it is a true Co-Op ,will members have deep enough pockets to recap it should they run into trouble> ? I would expect the risks would be a lot greater than a listed Bank such as ANZ,Westpac or Heartland who have shareholders they can call on.

Yes, I too would like to hear Winners comment on this, as it has been what has put me off investing there.

[percy]

Seems like the appropriate palce for comment is actually the HNZ thread after all .... keeping an eye on the competition

Like will the Bank of India have any impact on Heartland

Or is our thinking about Heartland so blinkered there is only one story

I think HNZ have a history of working with other banks such as Robo Bank,and would think Bank of India would gain more working with them than against them.
Not the only story on NZX,but never-the-less a very successful one.Great to see a NZ listed Bank serving NZders.
Sorry to be talking about HNZ on this thread.!! lol.

[percy]

Yes, I too would like to hear Winners comment on this, as it has been what has put me off investing there.

Haven't had a reply from winner yet?

[winner69]

Haven't had a reply from winner yet?


Didn't want to be seen talking to myself me old mate percy

[percy]

Didn't want to be seen talking to myself me old mate percy

Going by your posts on Dulux thread I thought you would be used to it.
Don't worry I always read your posts,in particular your "memos to myself."
Not like you not to reply to a question.

[p2r]

I use them and they are ok, they used to do stuff through BNZ in PSIS days. They have a branch in this provincial town which HNZ and ASB don't and sometime they will pay members a dividend, or not but I can't see them asking members for money otherwise. Kiwibank might be another in this group and does have a local branch.

[winner69]

Going by your posts on Dulux thread I thought you would be used to it.
Don't worry I always read your posts,in particular your "memos to myself."
Not like you not to reply to a question.

Was waiting for a char with the C-suite

Sometime over the weekend then ... from a 'homeworkist' sngle rather than a 'balance sheetist' angle ha ha .... but then again maybe from a 'generalist' angle - like just ramble on.

[Halebop]

...gut gazing...

Ahh, the thing that happens when I try to look at my feet.

[winner69]

Main attraction to Coop Bank to put some term deposit money with is that I have a certain empathy with the coop model. That empathy derived from what has happened to many building societies and insurance companies (globally) that have demutualised and then run into the ground by growth orientated and greedy bankers driven on by shareholders who want more and more.

So in some respects it is a protest against the way is run today. A coop I believe may be run more along the line of old fashioned values. And being owned locally is also an attraction.

To be honest I don’t even know what I might get out of it from an owner perspective – one day they may give me a dividend or rebate or however they handle it. If that ever happens that will be a bonus,

Balancesheetist it looks OK. Equity/owner ratio not as high as Heartland. Assets slightly less than Heartland. But at the end of the day one needs to have trust and confidence in management to do the right things. In Coop’s case they may have to be (and seem to be) more ‘prudent’ than shareholder owned banks.

Yes some risk with depositing with them, as there is with any financial institution. I don’t even know what happens what they do if they need more capital. Yes they nearly went broke zonks ago, And I wouldn’t put all my money into them and I don’t intend using them as my main bank. Rates have only been slightly above the main banks but heck these days that seems the norm.

I have an acquaintance who works there, not C-suite but part of senior management. From what he tells me I am quite impressed as to what they want to do over the next few years. They admit to not having done much to get new depositors since they became a bank. However they are about to start a new ad campaign touting the coop model and the NZ / you own story to increase the number of depositors / customers / owners. Whether that comes with buying some with high deposit rates or lower mortgage rates I don’t know. They do need more customers to provide greater scale to do some of things they want to do … and no doubt spread the costs a bit. Watch this space. (Yes a competitor to Heartland and Kiwi). Great culture in the place as well.

The coop v big corporate is an interesting topic. I am doing a long term study on Foodstuffs (the coop) v Progressive (owned by that greedy Woolworths) and on Mitre 10 (the coop) v Bunnings (the big corporate from Australia).

Woolworths when they took over Progressive were going to kill Foodstuffs and knock them out of the market or something like that. The owner operated supermarkets just couldn’t cope with the power and might and bottomless pockets of the giant corporate Woolworths. Many years on Foodstuffs are still there and at last count still #1 – Woolworths not made much ground up at all. The owner operators are doing OK

Again Bunnings were going to sink Mitre 10, The bottomless pockets of the giant corporate was going to be just too much for owner operators to handle during the roll out of the big box hardware concept. Ten years on Mitre 10 are still comfortably #1, been more nimble and put down 34 Mega stores v Bunnings 22. Bunnings have invested over half a billion dollars and still to make any money. Again the owner operator with real skin in the game has held off the giant corporate with plenty of shareholder money (millions of Aussies with part their super money invested in them).

Told you it would be a bit of a ramble but banks like Coop need supporting for a variety of reasons – even if it is only for the reason that such models to me a lot more attractive than models where shareholders demand more and more growth. One day with all the generational changes that are evolving and the changing values that are coming with it there may be more and more of these sort of businesses operating as the populous want to get back to basics and stay local.

[percy]

Thanks winner69.
When the Coop ran into trouble I think the govt bailled them out.I am sure there is no govt guarantee now.
So balance sheet and prudent lending is important.
People who use Coop bank speak very highly of it.
Your reasons for using the coop are both honest and good.
The Foodstuffs verses Woolworths models I find very interesting.I think of Placemakers model which is half owner operator and half Fletchers.
Also Mainfreight with owner drivers.The little guy with a lot of skin in the game can take on the big boys,and often beat them.The Woolworths manager just does not have any skin in the game.The way Woolworths treat their suppliers makes me think they would not be great people to work for.
With the Coop I don't know if the managers have a lot of skin in the game or not.Heartland directors and managers have.You were going to look into that at one time,as I couldn't understand it.
I see Heartland and the Coop having bright futures as they are owned and run for NZders.Both seem want to stay close to their customers.
Competition between them should see both of them increasing market share.

[p2r]

Interesting thoughts Winner...I don't think Coop bank branches are owner operated though. I don't know how much skin staff have in the bank.

I have noticed some of the local lines companies eg Scanpower , Electra that have stayed trust owned have been quite innovative, and investing in businesses that need some capital, later selling some etc, showing initiative in services and generally being a real community benefit & asset at a community & business level. They are probably more along the lines of Coop bank. Come to think of it Foodstuffs are a community asset in that way too & allowing local producers a toe in the door. Coops possibly better to work for? SOEs are theoretically coops owned by all NZers but for some reason they don't really benefit the community so much in these ways... maybe Meridian more than most. Some companies are better though - Sanitarium, Hubbards have done some good stuff...

[winner69]

I say it was a ramble and I did stray a bit with the Foodstuffs/Mitre 10 bit

Yes Coop Bank branches are operated by the bank, not owner operated. So different type of 'coop' structure eh

Maybe the attraction then to these types of ownership models is sort of anti corporate - easy for corporates to spend and play with shareholders money v those that have a bit more to lose of their own money

[percy]

I just wonder who owns them.If it is a true Co-Op ,will members have deep enough pockets to recap it should they run into trouble> ? I would expect the risks would be a lot greater than a listed Bank such as ANZ,Westpac or Heartland who have shareholders they can call on.

The higher risks remain as it still appears that "the members" are the owners [shareholders] .
I can not see them being willing or capable of contributing to a recap should Coop ever need one.
A save business is a profitable business.It is therefore important that "the members" should know how profitable the Coop is, and what is done with the profit.To live in hope of an extra rebate or dividend may be morally fine, but in reality of a bank looking after deposits does not add up to prudent care of ones money or savings.

[craic]

I have been a customer of PSIS/ Co-Operative bank since about 1968. My son, who is an exec. in Bank Of America, London, has his NZ account there. I am more than happy with them. My share dealings go through BNZ only for convenience of a full bank before co-op bank changed over.

[percy]

I have been a customer of PSIS/ Co-Operative bank since about 1968. My son, who is an exec. in Bank Of America, London, has his NZ account there. I am more than happy with them. My share dealings go through BNZ only for convenience of a full bank before co-op bank changed over.


I know Coop customers are "more than happy" with them.
What does interest me is if should things should, in the unlikely event,go wrong again,what guarantee do depositor's have?
As the model is coop I doubt it could survive another "black swan" event.
Can trustees of a trust deposit trust funds with them?.
Are lawyers allowed to deposit funds with them?.
Would a trustee be liable "as a prudent" person for not checking Coop guarantee?.
A listed bank does have shareholders to fund a recap if needed.I just do not see PSIS/Coop members being in a position to fund a recap, as they would have lost their deposits at at the Coop bank.
I know you and winner69 have shares and capital,yet I cann't see most Coop members being able/willing to fund a capital raising.Too late to shut the gate after the horse has bolted.
Would you run the question of Coop guarantee past you son.

[winner69]

Coop banks / credit unions / building societies have been around for zonks. In Britain the likes of Halifax Building Society were the backbone of the countries home lending market for over 150 years - gathering deposits from small savers and lending the proceeds to house buyers. The good old fashioned way. They survived world wars, periods of high interest rates, periods of falling house prices, credit crunches and all sorts of things because they had a simple business model.

Sadly a lot of these organisations don't exist anymore - they demutualised or whatever the word is and turned depositor owners into shareholders and tried to be a real bank. They forgot about what the business was all about and started gambling with shareholders monies to extract higher and higher returns for demanding shareholders (who were not the original depositors).

So talking of black swan events etc and the need for recap is not really relevant to coops/building societies etc. Their 'shareholders' do not demand excessive returns which lead to 'black swan' events.

So as long as Coop Bank sticks to the old fashioned way of doing things but in the modern world they should be OK. Look after the customers (depositor/shareholders) but offering them the services they need and acting prudently is the name of the game for them.

Like craic and his son I don't see Coop Bank as more risky than the likes of Heartland ... maybe less risky.

One thing I know that if the **** really hit the fan in the world I'd rather be with Coop than likes of HNZ. In HNZ case the likely outcome of a disaster for them is recap from a big player leaving existing shareholders out in the cold.

Nothing is safe eh Percy. I wouldn't put all my deposit money in them but for the reasons I outlined earlier I am more than happy to be a depositor with them

I think we will continue to disagree though Percy .... your glasses are more rose tinted than mine I fear

[percy]

Although I agree with a lot of what you say, it must be rememdered PSIS has been in big trouble.
I think govt bailled them out.This is no longer an option.
Hopefully neither Coop or HNZ will ever hit the wall,however it is reassuring to know where you stand.
I think Coop depositors would be in the far que.!
I think facts make my vision clearer.

[winner69]

the thing that far que'd PSIS is that they were into retailing in a biggish way as well .... learnt that lesson they did but like Smiths City the statutory Manager and Receivers got them over that hurdle

[craic]

I was a member then and they had a very broad retail base - I bought an electric sawbench, most of my household crockery and manchester from them - and they were big in home loans. When they looked to have overstepped the mark, Muldoon declared that he did not want to see so many public servants lose their savings and he appointed a statutory manager. Savings were frozen for a matter of months, then everything went back to normal. Remember, the Mighty Bank of NZ also came close to the precipice. All of this happened in difficult times with massive inflation and the rest going on.

[percy]

The old saying of "after all said and done, there is more said than done" is very true.
We are no nearer to answering the question."Who or whom would the Coop Bank turn to should they have troubles and need to recap."?
Can a trustee /lawyer have a trust a/c with Coop Bank?

[winner69]

The old saying of "after all said and done, there is more said than done" is very true.
We are no nearer to answering the question."Who or whom would the Coop Bank turn to should they have troubles and need to recap."?
Can a trustee /lawyer have a trust a/c with Coop Bank?

Maybe you can find out for us if it so important to you

I am not that interested in that sort of stuff.

Its a BANK, got a banking licence and good people run it so they must be OK

[Marilyn Munroe]

The safety of the Co-op bank depends on the sticking to what the Americans call 3-4-5 banking.

Borrow at 3%, lend at 4%, be on the golf course by 5.

In other words safe but boring. They should leave the "Master of the Universe" stuff to others.

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[percy]

Not too important to me as I have no risk there, as I don't bank with them.
And to think I thought you were our Coop expert.!! You have let yourself and us down>>!!!From your posts on HNZ thread, I thought you were very interested,particulary staff incentive schemes,and equity ratios.
I suppose South Canterbury Finance investors felt the same,great guy,great company,great record,[great loses,].
Yes, you can take comfort that they are a BANK,but there were banks in Cryprus and US that had people paid a bit more attention to equity and other ratios they may not have lost their savings.

[winner69]

http://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/65132/total-93335-or-76-co-operative-banks-customers-share-1-million-based-how-much

[janner]

Thank you winner for posting this..

I am all for Local Banks being supported by Local People.. NZ is being ripped off badly by overseas Banks..

All Local Banks in my opinion should be the focus of local support.. It will be one of the ways to stop the Financial drain of PROFITS going overseas..

Me ??.. I am supporting HNZ.. We have the same mantra !!.. Onward and Upward !!..


http://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/65132/total-93335-or-76-co-operative-banks-customers-share-1-million-based-how-much

[percy]

http://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/65132/total-93335-or-76-co-operative-banks-customers-share-1-million-based-how-much

I have been waiting all day for you to post this.Have you been out doing more community work?
Very positive,and good on them.
Trust you will spend your windfall wisely.!?

[karen1]

Trust you will spend your windfall wisely.!?

I know I will!

[percy]

I know I will!

I know you will.!??

[karen1]

Yep, I've spent it already!

[Daytr]

Hi all, looking at opening an account with this mob for my business account.
Relatively simple business as a contractor so just fortnightly revenue going in and car and other expenses going out.
Can anyone relate any experiences good or bad?
I assume they pay profits back to customers?
I assume the customers are the owners hence the name?
So that's some of the reason, but also half an eye on that one day they may float one day.

Welcome any thoughts.
Thanks Daytr

[Carpenterjoe]

Hi all, looking at opening an account with this mob for my business account.
Relatively simple business as a contractor so just fortnightly revenue going in and car and other expenses going out.
Can anyone relate any experiences good or bad?
I assume they pay profits back to customers?
I assume the customers are the owners hence the name?
So that's some of the reason, but also half an eye on that one day they may float one day.

Welcome any thoughts.
Thanks Daytr

Hey Daytr,

I use them to manage my NZ accounts.
Not Sure they are the cheapest or best.
But I really like when I'm back In NZ, I'm only dealing with the one person. Even front of house seem to never change.
Don't get too excited about profits coming back to you, think I received about fifty bucks last year.
But I don't pay account fees, I suppose that's a plus.

Good luck

[Daytr]

Appreciate it thanks.

[vorno]

Given it's been several years, how has the average return for you folk faired?