TPP Trade Agreement

[skid]

A bit off topic but it really affects all of us and is being negotiated mostly in secret
If we join we would then be open to all sorts of suits in the international courts.
It really gets up my nose when things that involve our everyday freedoms get decided outside the light of day:mad ;:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/selling_out_nzs_democracy_c/?bYjaJbb&v=31965

[Mista_Trix]

Intellectual property and Copyright law and pharmaceuticals are my two largest worries.
The US is far more heavy handed than anyone else who is looking to sign. Look whats it done to Hollywood, they haven't had an original idea in years, just sequels and remakes, everyone's too worried about stepping on someone elses idea and getting taken to court by the big boys.

[skid]

Yes,the whole thing became far more ominous since the US has become involved, mostly because the really big multinational corp are based there.
Australia has been taken to the international court and sued for lost profits by Philip Morris for passing legislation to try to stem tobacco use in teenagers---Our Pharmac would be out the door as big pharmaceutical co. sue-IMO we would become economically subservient to them.
At least we can sign and hope it makes a difference.

[blobbles]

Doesn't make sense to me, we would become a proxy economic state of the USA from what I have read. Beholden to another countries laws means we lose our sovereignty.

Plus we would get pummelled into protecting their industries at the expense of our own. It's a trade agreement where it doesn't pay to be the small guy.

[skid]

Ive made sure my whole family has signed the petition-No one can say we have'nt tried

[Mista_Trix]

It's my understanding its a reassertion of the Clinton knowledge economy push of the 90's. They positioned themselves (and their laws) to advantage themselves in the future, and they did well, they got some massive companies out of it.

However, they failed to see the digital revolution which would ultimately undermine their current copyright models, and the reverse engineering capabilities (and disregard) of Intellectual Property laws en mass in countries like China.

[Santiago]

Hang on- didn't we sign an FTA with China (somewhat larger than NZ), as well as with Australia... and ASEAN... and Singapore, Brunei and Chile, oh and Thailand... Hong Kong... Taiwan... And if you look at trade flows, it looks like we, the small country, have done very well. Indeed, you could even say that the China FTA is what saved NZ through the GEC. I think the idea of these agreements is that they actually give small countries like NZ a level playing field, rather than submitting ourselves to the sovereignty of someone else. That's why "small guys" like NZ go for these things- mutually agreed rules are far better than the law of the jungle. Be careful what you wish for- countries that haven't pursued this approach aren't places where you'd want to invest (Venezuela, North Korea, Nicaragua etc).

[Mista_Trix]

Have you seen the leaked bits and commentary around them?

Its pretty clear its to reassert its dominance in areas it is currently struggling or unable to.

[skid]

Hang on- didn't we sign an FTA with China (somewhat larger than NZ), as well as with Australia... and ASEAN... and Singapore, Brunei and Chile, oh and Thailand... Hong Kong... Taiwan... And if you look at trade flows, it looks like we, the small country, have done very well. Indeed, you could even say that the China FTA is what saved NZ through the GEC. I think the idea of these agreements is that they actually give small countries like NZ a level playing field, rather than submitting ourselves to the sovereignty of someone else. That's why "small guys" like NZ go for these things- mutually agreed rules are far better than the law of the jungle. Be careful what you wish for- countries that haven't pursued this approach aren't places where you'd want to invest (Venezuela, North Korea, Nicaragua etc).

Santiago-I believe its gotten out of hand since the USA has gotten involved.That is where most of the mega corp.are based.
Have you taken the time to read through the information available.
I believe the game has changed.
Its the free trade agreement with the states that is looking dangerous.
The name of the game there is that, alot of the time ,the corporations with power prosper, at the expense of the people.
This kind of agreement would IMO bring that game here-We would have then signed a contract that would be enforceable in the international court--Do some research on Monsanto-do you want to be taken to the international court and sued for legislating against some of their disastrous Genetically modified products(dairy included) At this point your grandmum can still get the medication she needs
because of Pharmac ,the gov set up that makes these things affordable. Do you want that to be at risk because some of the huge pharmaceutical co. suing for lost profits. .
We are moving away from the states and have closer relationships with Asia anyway.Do we really want to be closely associated with a regime that relies so heavily on secrecy(who feels they need to tap phones of European leaders)
Have a good look at the info available and decide for yourself if its worth the risk--If you still believe it is for a few more $$ then dont sign the petition.

[Santiago]

I fully understand where you're coming from. However, NZ hasn't exactly been the US's BFF over the last several decades. Don't you think our trade negotiators are pretty useful? I reckon if you go to Groser's ministerial we page and read some of his speeches (sounds boring, but if you're concerned about this stuff, makes sense), there are some interesting comments. We're in this for national interest, not to be anyone's friend. We nailed it with China and others. I reckon the opportunities outweigh the risks (market access to Japan, Mexico, the US, Canada...). No NZ govt is going to agree to anything that makes your granny pay more for her pills... We just wouldn't sign up. I think most of the other countries are in the same boat too. But I agree, healthy to debate this stuff and I fully back you for signing the petition- let them know you care so they can represent your views.

[skid]

With all due respect-I dont agree that no New Zealand government is going to agree to anything that makes your granny pay more for her bills.
Sometimes Gov, officials are either ill informed,or have other interests at heart.
I believe we still have plenty of opportunities that dont involve these kinds of risks.
The government was happy to let US agents come in and more or less run rampant on the Kim . com saga even though it was obviously illegal (whether you agree with . com or not is not the point)
There are alot of points in the Trade agreement that have not been exposed ,even to our gov.
Our gov. does not agree with some of the provisions ,but that doesnt mean they wont bow to pressure.
It comes down to where your values lie.
Is the fear of being a third world country greater than losing the things we value about the Kiwi way of life?
We have alot of things the world values and already have trade agreements.
Those things we have,we like to think are ours,but they will not necessarily stay ours with a few bad agreements-(even some are having second thoughts on some of our huge farms going to Chinese hands)
ATM that could be changed if the gov. or enough of we the people decide its better for the country.
But that may not be the case with this agreement. Its a balance between our quality of life and making a living.
Sometimes making a better and better living is not worth what we have to give up in the process.
NZ hasnt exactly been the US's best friend over the decades because a different government and most Kiwis decided there were things that were more important than snuggling up to the US-Lets hope common sense prevails this time around as well.

[Marilyn Munroe]

My biggest fear is the National Govt will end up in the same situation as John Howard the former Aussie PM.

Mr Howard became so politically committed to achieving a free trade agreement with the US that in the end he signed the deal without so much as a grain of Queensland cane sugar entering the land of the free and the home of the agricultural lobbyist.

Is it politically realsitic to expect US Congressional delegations from agricultural states to agree to unfettered access for NZ agricultural products?

Boop boop de do
Marilyn

[skid]

And would it be illegal to refuse the genetically enginered crops that Europe has banned

[skid]

This is one of the things that got me thinking
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-world-according-to-monsanto/

[skid]

For those that dont want to take the time to watch the documentary here's the basics in a nutshell.
Monsanto is a mega corp. that makes herbicides and genetically engineered food crops like corn and soybeans(they are working on virtually everything that grows for food -rice etc)
The seeds are genetically engineered to resist the herbicides monsanto produces(Roundup)
That means farmer joe can plant a field of GE soybeans and spray roundup and the weeds will die but the soybeans will not be affected.
So they sell the seeds and the herbicide--innovative thinking eh?---BUT heres where the story gets dark.
The plants are also genetically engineered so that the seeds will not grow the next crop. So you have to buy your next lot of seeds from Monsanto and so on.(the genetically engineered crops have also been shown to have health dangers-but thats another story)
So those that grow with Monsanto seeds are dependent on them from that point on.The seeds start out dirt cheap(highly subsidized)until they have widespread use and then they get hugely expensive.(In India they went up to 4X the price.
Once the GE crops get a foothold they cross pollinate with normal crops and the normal crops become the GE strain and ,you guest it ,the seeds wont produce another crop,so farmer john is now dependent on Monsanto.(There is evidence that Monsanto has smuggled in GE seeds to some countries in South America for this purpose)
Monsantos goal is to eventually have royalties on the entire worlds food source.
So why not just ban the GE seeds from coming into the country(like MAF does at the border)
We are about to sign a free trade agreement. Under that agreement, that would be considered a trade barrier and we would be taken to the international court and well and truly sued.
Starting to get the picture?---.....I can categorically deny that I have ever hugged a tree---but thats just dark---do some research and you will start to see the price we will pay for the ''free'' in Trade.

[skid]

http://www.ticotimes.net/More-news/News-Briefs/Infinito-Gold-to-move-forward-with-billion-dollar-lawsuit-against-Costa-Rica_Thursday-June-20-2013

[Scottman]

Scary stuff skid. The world going to hell in a hand basket at some stage.