Pie funds

[Joshuatree]

Click here to download the April newsletter (http://piefunds.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=466e5bf0449e5633d9d8e9a36&id=6c5e80bbc9&e=93f5614bd1)

[NZSilver]

cheers JT good read

[Joshuatree]

Thanks Silver it is indeed. Im constantly seeing and hearing comments re what PIE is buying/holding/selling; Mike and co are frontrunners and have a lot of kudos. I have 3 of their 4 funds and have just checked their performance. They are

Pie Emerging .....held for re 9.5 months; Gain 67.3% as of today
Pie Div fund........held for re 9 months;Gain 14.5%
Pie Global fund....held for re 6 months; Gain 5.2% still re 40% in cash. cheers JT

[Grimy]

I must have bought in about the same time JT and the same funds. More than happy so far.

[Joshuatree]

PIE FUND Performances Annualised Return since inception
AGF 20.4%
ADF 27.8%
AECF 75.1%
GSCF 11.1% (newest fund under 1 year ols , re 40% in cash)

[bull....]

Hes got a pretty good performance, nearly as good as me...... anyway do you think hes the best in nz if the measure of success is your performance?

[Joshuatree]

Don't know Bull , they must be right up there surely. Here's the latest returns which are getting harder to come by atm.

PIE Australasian growth fund 224% return from Dec 2007

PIE Australasian div fund 88.9% return since Dec 2011

PIE Australasian emerging co fund 69.2% since april 2013

PIE Global small companies fund 6% return since sept 2013 ' still sitting on some cash i think. All funds returns up to April 2014

I hold 3 funds

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Hi Joshuatree.

I am curious, are you the Joshua that won their share contest and went to Omaha ...

Please do not feel that you have to answer ...

[winner69]

Bit of stuff behind the man who started Pie

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11313943

[Lizard]

Does he mention the great education he received from ShareTrader??? :D

[bull....]

Anyone else noticed they just sent out their October newsletter announcing how they have just taken a big stake in REF because its such a bargain "deep value investment" - then on the 1st of Oct a SSH notice appears detailing a 1% sell down of the stake (which followed from an earlier sell down of the stock in late August). They must be taking lessons from HotCopper in pumping while dumping! :ohmy:

Yea had a look , isnt that a bit dodgy pumping a stock while they are selling on the other hand?

also read on the asx page they hold ttn so be interested to know what they did with there stake considering it fell 70% yesterday.

[stoploss]

Volume was up massively today on REF, so wonder if everyone who got the newsletter rushed out to buy it. As for their TTN stake, they will let unit holders know in November. Probably crossing their fingers and hoping for a miracle recovery between now and then, so they dont have to explain how their indepth analysis and all those meetings with management meant they didnt see that result coming!

I was at a PIE investor meeting and someone quizzed him on that holding ( about 18 months ago ) bearing in mind the mining scene was done and dusted then .... he said pretty much - we are comfortable with the investment
and in contact or regular contact with the management .... sounds like been led up the garden path by the Aussies ... but KW as you have alluded to mining services been in the too hard basket for a while now . I see AMP dumped a million shares yesterday, be ugly for PIE ( and I am in a few of the funds ) if they are still in , or in fact if they only pulled the trigger today . Who knows maybe they will see this as " deep value " and Double Up , ...brings to mind
that great quote " ballsiest move I ever saw Maverick "
Bottom line is you can't win em all and I am not bagging him , have a great deal of respect for what he and the whole team at PIE have achieved so far .

[777]

Funds down from yesterdays unit prices by....

ADF -2.99%
AECF -5.08%%

Don't have info for AGF.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

So if you are in ADF on a $40k investment then down $1196

If you are n AECF on a $40K investment then down $2032

As PIE probably include TTN in their Global fund within the AU component and a smaller % invested so less impact

[noodles]

It's nice to know that even the best make mistakes. I benchmark my performance against them. Of course, I have a big advantage as I can liquidate relatively easily if I make a mistake.

I went to the piefunds conference in Feb where Jim Sturgess (CEO of Titan) spoke. He gave a very compelling investment case. I spoke to him personally afterwards. Perhaps I'm not a good read, but he certainly spoke confidently about future profits.

It is refreshing to see a fund manager be so open about their trading. They spend a good deal of time explaining their investment decisions and give that info away for free.

This month, they are donating their new entry fees to charity. Nice guys!

DISC:I do not own any pie funds, but do hope to get invited back to their conference next year!

[Joshuatree]

Fortunately PIE had halved their investment in TTN before the hit. Im still happy having funds with them.
Not sure about the phone call message today though wishing me happy birthday!!!. Luckily i wasn't answering or acknowledging hitting 60. The Gin and frozen raspberries is being a bit kinder atm tho lol.

[peat]

I see my Doctor is on the investment committee.
He did mention something about this to me a year or so ago.

I would point out that the funds are all very recent and, with the possible exception of one, only short term results are available - all drawn from a bull market.

[stoploss]

I see my Doctor is on the investment committee.
He did mention something about this to me a year or so ago.

I would point out that the funds are all very recent and, with the possible exception of one, only short term results are available - all drawn from a bull market.
What's " all very recent " the Aust Growth was established Dec 2007, 100k now 350 K ....
from memory 2008 wasn't a bull market .........

[bull....]

We all make investment mistakes its part of the game

[bull....]

Indeed we do all make mistakes. But one would expect that someone who is managing other people's money would have learnt not to make the most basic mistakes by now. Its quite different being hammered by a company whose downgrade comes out of the blue (eg. McMillan Shakespeare), and another to be buying a small company trading in one of the most difficult industry environments in decades. Ditto for cutting your losses quickly. Titan had been in an obvious downtrend since December last year (they had six months to exit around $2.20).

One of the supposed benefits of this type of fund is that the managers are in "constant contact with company management", and they have done "rigorous due diligence" on their investments. Things that I as, as a retail investor, am unable to do. Thats why you pay them lots of fees (far higher than an equivalent small cap index fund). But if these benefits are merely illusory, and the manager is unable to see the writing on the wall that me, blind freddy, can see simply by looking at a chart, then what is the point of their existence and what value are they providing?

As the old wall street adage goes "if you want to get rich, invest other people's money not your own". Its far easier to make money from fees than from picking stocks.

Yes I do find it very hard to disagree with you.

Good markets since end 2008 make most of us look like gurus, when the party ends we will see the real gurus! quote by bull

[Harvey Specter]

Call me a cynic but I also think the donation of fees to charity this month is designed to deflect attention from the funds performance.Maybe a bit cynical. They were very public awhile ago donating to kidscan on the Cambell Live show. Given his funds are all effectively full, there is no real need for him to do marketing so I think he has a real charitable nature.

[bull....]

This is why index funds are recommended over active funds. Lower fees, and the index beats out the majority of active fund managers (which is to be expected as an index automatically dumps losers and adds winners, so you are always on the right side of the rebalancing).

Sure during a bull market, but in any other market active managers may do better.

Pie funds I believe may be one of the best performing managers over the last 5 yrs but like I say lets see amoung all the fund managers when it ends

Good markets since end 2008 make most of us look like gurus, when the party ends we will see the real gurus! quote by bull

[Bilbo]

This is why index funds are recommended over active funds. Lower fees, and the index beats out the majority of active fund managers (which is to be expected as an index automatically dumps losers and adds winners, so you are always on the right side of the rebalancing).

Wow, very broad generalization there. PIE funds have smashed the indexes, Milford are well ahead too. Saying index funds are recommended over active funds is way too simplistic. The key is asset allocation. If you are in the wrong indexes then you might outperform an active manager in a fund for that asset class/subclass, but you most likely will not outperform a skilled active manager that is investing across different asset classes/subclasses and actively adjusting exposure to asset classes, geographic regions, FX etc. The key is picking the right manager. I use both PIE and Milford and am very happy, but they only manage <20% of my holdings as their NZ/AU focused funds invest in a small part of the investment universe.

Here is a counter argument to you sating "an index automatically dumps losers and adds winners". Look at when XRO was added to the MSCI global index, most of the index funds tracking that index bought at $35+ and will now need to sell at half that when/if XRO drops from the index this month (an will also have an FX loss too as the NZD has fallen >10% since then). The smart active managers (e.g Milford) bought XRO at $1-$4 well before it appeared in any index, and have sold down after it was bought by index tracking funds at 10+ times the price. PIE Funds are a small cap specialists and will be buying future winners well before they are large enough to enter most indexes.

[Harvey Specter]

Call me a cynic but I also think the donation of fees to charity this month is designed to deflect attention from the funds performance.I also note that they did well at the Fast 50 awards* last night with Revenue up over 1000%.

* not a fan of the Fast 50's as it focuses only on revenue and favours small companies - 25 of the 50 have revenues under $5m

[ruaboy]

I have held both index and managed funds. According to my very rough records 100k invested in MZY, OZY and Pie's AGF in 2007 has been turned into MZY 77k, OZY 120k and Pie's AGF 351k. No dividends included in this very simple calculation. I no longer hold index funds and am a very happy Pie holder.

[Bilbo]

The difference is that XRO would make up a miniscule % of the total index (<1%) so any loss from the entry/exit would not be noticeable. An active manager who is a substantial shareholder may well have 5-7% of the portfolio in XRO. The losses are of a much greater magnitude. In order for an active manager to outperform an index with several hundred components they would have to take bigger bets and BE ALWAYS RIGHT. Which they are not.

Yes of course XRO is a minuscule % of the total index, but how many other stocks in that index have also been bought high and sold low by the passive manager being required to follow the index? But I know I can not argue with a passive index convert so will not waste my breath. All I can speak of is personal experience, having had a large chunk of my portfolio managed by a passive manager and having totally outperformed with my own investments and with investments with (carefully selected) passive managers.

Indexes and passive managers will give you the average and for some people that is acceptable. I have been raised to not be content with being average and will always strive to far exceed the average. I pick active managers that share the same philosophy and passion for being the best, not just average. I liken passive managers to the students I went to school/university with who were happy to get 50% in an exam and that was their target. My target has always been 100%

[D. Fender]

All Pie's Australasian funds are closed.

[D. Fender]

Fortunately PIE had halved their investment in TTN before the hit. Im still happy having funds with them.

The share price halved (from a high of $3.70 down to $1.70 the day of the profit warning). 500,000 more shares in TTN were purchased earlier this year and close to 10% of the equity was still held.

[bull....]

I could never understand the holding in TTN, but then again im a person who believes no company can defy macro headwinds

[D. Fender]

Anyone else noticed they just sent out their October newsletter announcing how they have just taken a big stake in REF because its such a bargain "deep value investment" - then on the 1st of Oct a SSH notice appears detailing a 1% sell down of the stake (which followed from an earlier sell down of the stock in late August). They must be taking lessons from HotCopper in pumping while dumping! :ohmy:

I see the same.

[Schrodinger]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102157205

Thought you guys might find this useful.

[Bilbo]

I'm sure they are awesome if you are one of the lucky ones who picked a fund manager from the winning 4%.

But don't you think it weird that Warren Buffet wants all his money to be put into index funds when he dies. He must know every single high performing fund manager in the entire world, and still, he doesnt trust any of them with his own money.

I guess it is all about risk and the investment horizon. Endowment funds etc have a 100 year plus investment horizon and need to be low risk. Index funds are perfect for them. But even they usually have a portion in core satellite investments. Like most things in life where there are two opposing views at opposite ends to the scale, the prudent approach is usually a hybrid one. Having a small portion of funds in something like PIE's emerging companies fund or Aus small cap growth as part of a balanced and diversified portfolio can generate returns above the market. To write them off as you did is short sighted.

[bull....]

I see the same thing happening in VTG this month...big positive write up in the newsletter, while selling 3 million shares in the last month.

must be a lot of people who get the newsletter but dont have funds invested with them a

[Joshuatree]

Sounds like you're chomping at the bit to start a "KW Nimble Superior Fund" let me know:)

[stoploss]

Maybe VTG becoming too big in the portfolio at that price , they did buy sub 25 cents .Might be forced due to cap on stake size , or could be lesson learnt on being a major shareholder in a small cap .I say feed the dogs when they are barking ....

[D. Fender]

Maybe a bit cynical. They were very public awhile ago donating to kidscan on the Cambell Live show. Given his funds are all effectively full, there is no real need for him to do marketing so I think he has a real charitable nature.

The Global Fund is still raising money and it is investments into the Global Fund where the first year's fee is paid to charity.

[stoploss]

No, the Global Fund is still raising money and it is only investments into the Global Fund where the first year's fee is paid to charity. At the minimum $25K investment it means $250 will go to charity. All the performance fees (10% of all gains) and annual fees from year two go to Pie Funds.

Or you could just donate $250 to the charity of your choice and invest the other $24,750 in a good fund.

All Pie's funds are closed, unless you can afford to lock away $250K for 2 years, in which case you might get an invite to invest in the new Pie Chairman's Fund, which is a fund of the other Pie funds with a $50K annual fee and with a max. 50% into any single Pie fund.

I would prefer to see any CEO's charitable giving done with his/her own money. Pie Funds made $7m in fees in the year to 31 March 2014, of which I am sure a very decent chunk went to the CEO personally.

It makes no difference to an investor if he chooses to pay the performance fees to Charity , it's money his company has earned not investors money . Also all staff are in PIE funds , so it is an incentive for them not to make
too many TTN's .

[Toulouse - Luzern]

My periodic analysis shows:

If you do a NZ Investment funds review for all funds over $10 using fund finder search on the www.morningstar.co.nz site by 6 month % performance then PieFunds have three funds in the top 9 .

AMP have three funds in the top 9 and Niko, PPS and One Answer have one each.

AMP is 1st, 2nd and 4th.

PieFunds is 3rd, 7th and 9th

Note that PieFunds have a total of just four funds and AMP have 33 funds.

AMP performance over 6 months ranges from their top fund at 17.06% to the low of 1.77%.

PieFunds range is from 14.3% to 4.12% for their four funds.

The 4.12% is for the new global fund with a higher than usual cash component as it invests over time...

Selecting a suitable fund from the PieFund range using a dart gives a high % of being on the right side as there are just 4 segments on the PieFunds fund selector dartboard I have drawn below.

6448

[D. Fender]

My periodic analysis shows:

If you do a NZ Investment funds review for all funds over $10 using fund finder search on the www.morningstar.co.nz (http://www.morningstar.co.nz) site by 6 month % performance then PieFunds have three funds in the top 9 .

AMP have three funds in the top 9 and Niko, PPS and One Answer have one each.

AMP is 1st, 2nd and 4th.

PieFunds is 3rd, 7th and 9th

Note that PieFunds have a total of just four funds and AMP have 33 funds.

AMP performance over 6 months ranges from their top fund at 17.06% to the low of 1.77%.

PieFunds range is from 14.3% to 4.12% for their four funds.

The 4.12% is for the new global fund with a higher than usual cash component as it invests over time...

Selecting a suitable fund from the PieFund range using a dart gives a high % of being on the right side as there are just 4 segments on the PieFunds fund selector dartboard I have drawn below.

6448

I think you need to compare apples with apples - the table you refer to shows all types of funds, from global equity to emerging markets to fixed interest.

The performance data on Morningstar is to the 30th September.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Hi Homzen,

Thanks for your reply and in particular "Finally, the performance data on Morningstar is to the 30th September, so it doesn't include the impact of Titan on Pie's numbers".

For me this is a revelation.

I have always assumed that Morningstar data would update weekly and therefore be up to date as at 31 October 2014.

I expected the performance % shown would include recent TTN ASX announcements eg 15 September 2014 (Astra Drilling acquisition) no change to EBITA at $21M and 2 October 2014 RCH contracts impact EBIT now $10 to $12M.

Thanks

[stoploss]

I think you need to compare apples with apples - the table you refer to shows all types of funds, from global equity to emerging markets to fixed interest. Also 6 months is too short a period to make any meaningful conclusions, in my view. Look at the 12 month numbers to get a better picture.

Bear in mind that in the last 2.5 years Pie's total FUM has gone from $30m to $190m. It's almost inevitable that performance numbers will be harder to generate going forward than when the funds were small, if for no other reason than Pie isn't 'under the radar' any more. Just look at how many substantial shareholder filings Pie does these days. And it will only get harder because despite saying the funds are closed, they keep taking in more money. Check out the last annual accounts on the Companies Office website. The Dividend Fund took in $4m more than was withdrawn in the year to 31 March 2014, and the Emerging Fund also took in more than was withdrawn.

Finally, the performance data on Morningstar is to the 30th September, so it doesn't include the impact of Titan on Pie's numbers.

I think the "still taking in money " Is investors in the fund who choose to reinvest the dividend in more units as opposed to taking the cash .....?

[D. Fender]

I think the "still taking in money " Is investors in the fund who choose to reinvest the dividend in more units as opposed to taking the cash .....?

Maybe that accounts for it.

[peat]

What's " all very recent " the Aust Growth was established Dec 2007, 100k now 350 K ....
from memory 2008 wasn't a bull market .........

yeh I said with the exception of one fund ...which is obviously the fund that existed during 2008
very recent effectively means 'one market cycle'
I do accept the results look good but my point is they haven't really been tested through downturns or even long stagnant phases.

[D. Fender]

I just checked the 2014 reports and accounts. You can find these on the Companies Office website, look under 'Search Other Registers' the look for Unit Trusts, and search on Pie Australasian Dividend Fund.

[Harvey Specter]

Really, they are taking 10% in performance fees? And this is on top of the annual fees which I assume are around 1-2%?
And the new fund is $50k a year so 20% of your capital goes to Pie each year?

This is hedge fund pricing - not a mutual fund. And if they consider themselves a hedge fund, then I assume Pie comes with hedge fund type risks.Hedge fund pricing is 2 and 20, though 1.5 and 15 is getting close. I assume the performance fee only cuts in above the index return so not as bad as a hedge fund.

Not sure where your 20% of capital comment comes from?

Edit: the global is 1 and 10 but I assume there are also additional fees by the funds they invest in.

[D. Fender]

Really, they are taking 10% in performance fees? And this is on top of the annual fees which I assume are around 1-2%?
And the new fund is $50k a year so 20% of your capital goes to Pie each year?

This is hedge fund pricing - not a mutual fund. And if they consider themselves a hedge fund, then I assume Pie comes with hedge fund type risks.

Hi KW,

The fee structures are:

Australasian Growth, Dividend and Emerging Companies Funds: 1.5% p.a plus 15% performance fee on all gains (subject to high water mark).

Global Small Companies Fund: 1% p.a. (plus underlying managers fees as this is a fund of funds, including full fees on investments into Pie's own funds) plus 10% performance fee on all gains (subject to high water mark).

Pie Chairmans Fund: $50K per annum (this is on the whole fund, not per investor), plus Pie's normal fund fees. So if the Chairman's Fund raises $5m, the fee is 1% p.a., plus 1%-1.5% p.a. and 10% -15% performance fees on the underlying funds (plus underlying manager fees on the Global Fund, including fees on investments into Pie's own funds).

Hope that's clear!

[D. Fender]

I assume the performance fee only cuts in above the index return so not as bad as a hedge fund.

Hi Harvey, the performance fee is on ALL gains, there is no benchmark/hurdle.

[Harvey Specter]

Hi Harvey, the performance fee is on ALL gains, there is no benchmark/hurdle.Surprising. I think Fisher funds and Milford have a hurdle, though I think Fishers use the bond rate.

[D. Fender]

All I see is fees, fees, fees and more fees LOL

Morningstar performance numbers should be out soon.

[stoploss]

All I see is fees, fees, fees and more fees LOL

That Wall St adage really is true - if you want to be rich invest other people's money! Its far easier to pick up millions $ per year in fees than actually build a portfolio of stocks. What's the bet an IPO is in the wings, so the founders can rake even more money in?

KW , I have been to a couple of investor meetings with PIE. In particular Mike the CEO . I personally think you might be being a little unfair on him / PIE . I understand he has no direct shareholdings ....all money in the market is in his funds. All staff are invested in the funds . Closing the funds at 50 Mio , does not look like someone who is just after fees. I appreciate other posters have pointed out that he has taken on some more money , plus reinvestments. However the flood gates are not open .Seems like the great knocking machine is having a bit of a go here. One f up ( and we all have them ) and the wolves are at the door.
He set this company up , and I think it is on their website as he was not happy with the way other fund managers operated .....
DISC : I hold a number of the funds , as part of my portfolio .( very happy with the performance)

[Joshuatree]

Growth fund 251% return since inception; 2007; 7.7% ytd.

Aust Div fund 102% since inception ,2011 10.3% ytd

Pie emerging Australasian 82.4% since inception 2013 ytd 13%

Pie Global 10.4% since inception 2013 7.6% ytd still sitting on some cash

[Joshuatree]

Not in their list of substantial holdings so heres hoping.Sold INA as well.

[stoploss]

Maybe. But then I have high expectations of people who hold themselves out as "experts" and take on the responsibility for other people's money. But a question, if he does not own any shares personally, and the funds are all closed, what has he been doing with all his $millions he's earned from fees? How is he investing his own money these days?

Maybe that accounts for the fund inflow over and above the dividend reinvestment ???

[D. Fender]

growth fund 251% return since inception; 2007; 7.7% ytd.
Aust div fund 102% since inception 10.3% ytd 2011
pie emerging australasian 82.4% since inception ytd 13%
pie global 10.4% since inception 2013 7.6% ytd still sitting on some cash


bbbbbbbbbb

[stoploss]

I'm not into bagging anyone for the sake of it. But the above numbers kind of prove a point. Did anyone else notice that back in March, Pie changed the way it reported performance numbers? They used to show 12 months, 3 yrs p.a, 5 yrs p.a and since inception. From March they changed to showing individual calendar years since inception plus year to date. Why? I suspect it is to try and mask short term performance. The YTD numbers above are OK, but the 12 month numbers will be a lot lower as the last 3 months of 2013 were flat/down.

Also note the Global Fund chart in the newsletter is from 1st Jan this year, although the fund launched on 1 September last year. The numbers show the fund underperformed the index from launch. All the other funds show performance since launch. Why is this one different? Because if they showed since launch the chart wouldn't look anything like as good. Naughty.

Pie has been a phenomenally good performer in the past when the funds were smaller. But taking in more money when the funds are supposed to be closed is not the way to treat exisiting investors, imho.

Now with the new fund, if you're rich enough you get access to the closed funds, even though many investors have stayed loyal to Pie for a long time but don't have the $250K needed to buy access.

In regard to the global fund .I would imagine only a small % was invested Sept/Dec 31 so it was probably really a Global "cash fund" as opposed to global small co's . They were still trying to appoint managers for it . Anyway i am not going to sit here all day and wonder/ try and defend I don't have any concerns at this stage with them as a manager of my money . . When I have had a problem I have called, emailed and he has responded immediately. So if you are an investor I would advise you do the same if you have an issue with it .

[Toulouse - Luzern]

I expect one PieFunds fund, the Australasian Dividend Fund, will not be affected as I see AZV doesn't pay a dividend so I assume AZV will not be in the ADF portfolio.

[D. Fender]

In regard to the global fund .I would imagine only a small % was invested Sept/Dec 31 so it was probably really a Global "cash fund" as opposed to global small co's . They were still trying to appoint managers for it . Anyway i am not going to sit here all day and wonder/ try and defend I don't have any concerns at this stage with them as a manager of my money . . When I have had a problem I have called, emailed and he has responded immediately. So if you are an investor I would advise you do the same if you have an issue with it .

All other funds are shown from inception.

[Joshuatree]

Growth fund 251% return since inception; 2007; 7.7% ytd. Averaged out say 7 complete years =re 36 %per annum ;FANTASTIC

Aust Div fund 102% since inception ,2011 10.3% ytd Averaged out say 3 complete years= 34% per annum AWESOME

Pie emerging Australasian 82.4% since inception 2013 ytd 13% Averaged out say 2 years = re 41 % SHOW ME BETTER!

Certainly better than my own returns .
Longer term I'm thinking the returns will drop as i guess they prob have already from the first year or so.But this simplistic averaging is fine by me ; kudos to Mike and management.As part of my diversified portfolio ; mainly NZ and Aus stocks with some bonds etc I'm so happy that i took a friends advice and bought in.

Pie Global 10.4% since inception 2013 7.6% ytd still sitting on some cash Don't hold this one atp.

Not sure what the motive is from a few posters; proof is in the PIE:t_up:

[777]

Remember at one stage an offer was made that if you invested in the global fund you were able to invest some in the earlier funds. That would account for some inflow to those funds.

Missed out on the 1st fund but hold the next three. Offered the Chairman's fund but decided against it as decided I had enough invested there. Also a little concerned at possible doubling of fees with a fund of funds arrangement. Or are non Chairman Fund investors paying the total fees from the individual funds being covered.

Happy as an investor.

[stoploss]

I think PIE are good for people who know nothing about investing, its probably the only way that those people will have exposure to the share market, that and maybe some Telecom/Utility shares they got in a public float. So all good. But as an experienced investor, I am merely expressing my surprise at some of their investment decisions (selling early, selling late) as I would have thought they would know better being "eggspurts" and all. Especially concerned by the big write ups they do in their newsletters to promote a stock they have bought, saying what a wonderful investment opportunity it is, while simultaneously selling it on market. Its unfortunate if those great returns are coming at the expense of naive investors sucked in by a pump and dump operation - if the funds are closed, how many of the people who get those newsletters rush out to buy whatever stock PIE is promoting that month, only to find out the next month that PIE have conveniently exited leaving them holding the dud investment.

KW I don't agree.I see this as a good balance to my own investing .You say you are surprised by their investment decisions . However even the Buff makes mistakes ...it's impossible to sell them all at the top ......Everyone makes mistakes, but surely their performance speaks volumes . Honestly how many people would put their hand up and say they can beat them ? Looking at the sharetrader ASX comp not many ..........
I have invested money in the market for my family as an education fund . The admin etc was a bit of a nightmare, investing it with PIE funds has simplified it and been very profitable.

[D. Fender]

Remember at one stage an offer was made that if you invested in the global fund you were able to invest some in the earlier funds. That would account for some inflow to those funds.

Missed out on the 1st fund but hold the next three. Offered the Chairman's fund but decided against it as decided I had enough invested there. Also a little concerned at possible doubling of fees with a fund of funds arrangement. Or are non Chairman Fund investors paying the total fees from the individual funds being covered.

Happy as an investor.

Re the Chairmans Fund, you pay the Chairmans Fund fee and the underlying manager fees.

[Harvey Specter]

Mike will probably have a good chuckle at this thread when he finishes his morning swim in his pool of gold coins.

[Joshuatree]

I think PIE are good for people who know nothing about investing, its probably the only way that those people will have exposure to the share market, that and maybe some Telecom/Utility shares they got in a public float. So all good. But as an experienced investor, I am merely expressing my surprise at some of their investment decisions (selling early, selling late) as I would have thought they would know better being "eggspurts" and all. Especially concerned by the big write ups they do in their newsletters to promote a stock they have bought, saying what a wonderful investment opportunity it is, while simultaneously selling it on market. Its unfortunate if those great returns are coming at the expense of naive investors sucked in by a pump and dump operation - if the funds are closed, how many of the people who get those newsletters rush out to buy whatever stock PIE is promoting that month, only to find out the next month that PIE have conveniently exited leaving them holding the dud investment.

I believe many professionals/high net worth people invest through PIE for the great returns and quality of the funds one at least has a five star rating.Some of them are too busy to have time for research etc.

I know something about investing and i know i have areas of weakness too so PIE is a great way of diversifying mitigating and making up for some of my mistakes; Gold stocks being one of them at this moment in time.Their time will come but at an opportunity cost :(

As you yourself say KW anything can happen in a month or so esp with small caps so PIE selling something does not mean they are doing a pump/dump on us small retail investors, something has intrinsically changed in their investment.

I know a lot of savvy investors keep up with what PIE and The Boat Fund etc are buying into (looks like you too ehh:)

I suppose its natural you set the threshold/bar as high as what you say you achieve your self ; you're in a league on your own and you share lots of great advice from hard earned experience.

[D. Fender]

I believe many professionals/high net worth people invest through PIE for the great returns and quality of the funds one at least has a five star rating.Some of them are too busy to have time for research etc.

I know something about investing and i know i have areas of weakness too so PIE is a great way of diversifying mitigating and making up for some of my mistakes; Gold stocks being one of them at this moment in time.Their time will come but at an opportunity cost :(

As you yourself say KW anything can happen in a month or so esp with small caps so PIE selling something does not mean they are doing a pump/dump on us small retail investors, something has intrinsically changed in their investment.

I know a lot of savvy investors keep up with what PIE and The Boat Fund etc are buying into (looks like you too ehh:)

I suppose its natural you set the threshold/bar as high as what you say you achieve your self ; you're in a league on your own and you share lots of great advice from hard earned experience.

I think there are some good points on both sides of this debate.

[bull....]

The funds are soft closed I believe if they continue to take funds in.

Good markets since end 2008 make most of us look like gurus, when the party ends we will see the real gurus! quote by bull

[D. Fender]

Are the returns shown before or after all the fees (annual and performance) are taken into account?

And can someone explain what happens with taxes? Who pays what?

Hi KW, all fund returns are net of fees (annual and performance).

In a P.I.E. (as in Portfolio Investment Entity, not the fund manager), there is no CGT payable either within the fund or on sale of the units. Income (i.e. dividends) is taxed but at reduced rates compared with normal PAYE rates (e.g. the top rate in a PIE is 28%) and is paid direct from the fund to the IRD via cancellation/sale of units.

[Joshuatree]

I think there are some good points on both sides of this debate. But I've done my research and here are my final thoughts on the matter:



6. Focus - not only is the CEO running Pie Funds (now with 5 funds and $190m FUM) and managing 8 employees, he's also running (and writing) a financial/lifestyle magazine and flying round the world doing manager research. Compare this to 2.5 years ago when it was 2 funds, $30m FUM and 3 employees.

The track record is beyond reproach, but it is past performance. The big question is where it goes from here.

Thanks for your post's the homzen. I would be surprised (pleasantly) if they could keep similar performance up. When it was as you describe above ,small , simple low cost structure and more nimble ; it was kinda perfectly formed but alas nothing stays the same. Really happy to hold for now.

[D. Fender]

Fortunately PIE had halved their investment in TTN before the hit.

Hi JT, just been looking back at the newsletters. TTN was in 'Energy' in the fund sector breakdowns in the newsletters.

[Joshuatree]

From their latest slice of PIE

"Prior to Titan’s downgrade, Pie had been reducing,and its weighting in the funds had halved from12 months earlier. It was no longer a top 5 stockin Growth and Dividend and our plan was tohave exited by March 2015. In recent times I’d hadgrowing concerns about the robustness of theirbusiness model. That said, the team clearly gotthis one wrong and for that I will admit we madea mistake. "

[Joshuatree]

From their latest slice of PIE

"Prior to Titan’s downgrade, Pie had been reducing,and its weighting in the funds had halved from12 months earlier. It was no longer a top 5 stockin Growth and Dividend and our plan was tohave exited by March 2015. In recent times I’d hadgrowing concerns about the robustness of theirbusiness model. That said, the team clearly gotthis one wrong and for that I will admit we madea mistake. "

[D. Fender]

From their latest slice of PIE

"Prior to Titan’s downgrade, Pie had been reducing,and its weighting in the funds had halved from12 months earlier. It was no longer a top 5 stockin Growth and Dividend and our plan was tohave exited by March 2015. In recent times I’d hadgrowing concerns about the robustness of theirbusiness model. That said, the team clearly gotthis one wrong and for that I will admit we madea mistake. "

Pie is now out of TTN completely.

[Joshuatree]

ihave no need or interest in doing that but maybe you do:)

[D. Fender]

ihave no need or interest in doing that but maybe you do:)

OK. It's up to you.

[D. Fender]

What happened with TTN was the number of shares held reduced by 7% in the 12 months prior to the profit warning on 2nd October.

[kiora]

I think there are some good points on both sides of this debate. But I've done my research and here are my final thoughts on the matter:

1. Pie Funds Board - there have been a number of changes to the board in the past 2 years, especially for such a small company. The current board is Mike Taylor, Richard Avery-Wright, Steve Nichols and Roy Knill. Richard Avery-Wright is also the sole shareholder in Castle Point (a new NZ/Aust fund manager) so is in almost direct competition with Pie Funds. Steve Nichols used to work with Mike Henry, who was also on the Pie board. Mike Henry is Mike Taylor's father in law. Roy Knill is an Auckland doctor (GP) with no fund management experience. He owns 5% of Pie's equity and is also on the investment committee. My concern: who on that board is going to stand up to Mike Taylor as a truly independent director?

2. Investment Committee - includes Mike Taylor, Mark Devcich, Chris Bainbridge and Roy Knill. Mark and Chris work at Pie Funds, have been trained by Mike Taylor and have never worked anywhere else in fund management, and Roy is a GP as outlined above. There is not a single independent voice on this committee. Again, who's going to stand up and ask the hard questions on stocks like TTN?

3. Capacity - if a fund is closed, it should be closed. In this type of concentrated small cap strategy, fund size is the enemy. Letting in more money is detrimental to existing investors. If the Pie Funds directors/staff want to invest more, they should take capacity as investors withdraw, not keep adding more on top of that.

4. Transparency - or lack of it. Sure, some stocks get written up in the newsletters, and some mistakes get discussed. But what about stocks like TIL (Ecoya), ECV, PSZ and CGO, on all of which Pie has filed substantial notices? Note that in the sector breakdown in the newsletters, TTN was classed under 'Energy'. It's not an Energy stock.

5. Changes to performance reporting/being selective with dates - when a fund manager changes the way it reports performance with no explanation, it throws up a few questions. As does changing the dates on charts to make the story look better.

6. Focus - not only is the CEO running Pie Funds (now with 5 funds and $190m FUM) and managing 8 employees, he's also running (and writing) a financial/lifestyle magazine and flying round the world doing manager research. Compare this to 2.5 years ago when it was 2 funds, $30m FUM and 3 employees.

The track record is beyond reproach, but it is past performance. The big question is where it goes from here.

OR the contrarian view regarding the board could be DON'T elect an independent accountant/lawyer/fund expert as then Piefunds performance is MORE likely to revert to an average fund performance ?

[D. Fender]

The performance numbers to 31 October are now available from Morningstar.

[bull....]

The performance numbers to 31 October are now available from Morningstar. There are 20 funds in the Australasian Equity PIE fund category.

Pie Growth is last place with a return of 3.92% for the 12 months to 31 October. Pie Dividend is 17th out of 20 with a return of 5.04% for the last 12 months. Pie Emerging is in 10th place with a return of 13.55% for the last 12 months.

The top performing funds all achieved returns of 15%-19% over this period.

Maybe one year is too short a period to judge a trend, but let's see how things play out from here.

Interesting, I find most fund managers stated returns on websites as potentially misleading as they tend to display a rolling 12mth return, I would prefer calendar yr return.

[D. Fender]

Interesting, I find most fund managers stated returns on websites as potentially misleading as they tend to display a rolling 12mth return, I would prefer calendar yr return.

I'm not sure how 12 month rolling numbers are misleading. I think they're useful. Calendar year returns don't help an investor see what their own returns have been, whereas rolling 12 month/3 year/5 year numbers give a better idea, because at least once a year you see these numbers from the month you invested. The vast majority of managers show rolling numbers rather than calendar year returns.

[D. Fender]

Are all the PIE funds limited to only buying small cap companies? (Although surely the Dividend Fund would not be small caps but REITs?). That would explain a lot. Its getting much harder to find any value in the small cap space, most are now fully valued, if not over-valued. Anything that is cheap is cheap for a good reason, and the market seems to be quickly trimming the over-valued stocks like RFL and AZV. With Australia staring down the barrel of a recession, the small caps are usually the first to suffer (and the last to recover which is why 2011 - 2013 were such great years in this sector) so its going to be tough going in this space from here. Unemployment is rising in Australia, the heat is coming out of the property market, consumer confidence is down to GFC levels. I have found myself buying into big cap stocks, for the first time in a few years (eg. LEI, COH) - if you don't have the flexibility to change your style of investing because you are locked in to a fund mandate you can be stuck in an underperforming sector for the entire length of time it takes to come out of the cycle.

They usually invest in the small end of small caps (typically up to $300m market cap) and concentrated (max. 15 stocks per fund for the Australasian funds). The Dividend Fund is small cap equities too, just ones that pay dividends.

The Global Small Cap Fund is a global small cap fund of funds, but they manage the Australasian allocation both direct and via their own funds.

They can go to 100% cash in all funds.

[D. Fender]

This is so true. Those outsized portfolio returns of 250%+ are not the result of every company you buy appreciating by 35% a year. Its the result of one of those companies appreciating by 300%+ a year. And being in that "lift" is something you would not have been able to pick beforehand. Its luck that you got in early, and good fortune that the company did so well. In my case, I had two stocks doing the heavy lifting, INA and MNF. INA managed to survive the GFC and went on to recover (although its still not back at its pre-GFC levels) and MNF was a tiny little niche VoIP provider that no-one could see turning into the serious telco it is today. I've only ever had one other big lifter in my portfolio and that was during the 2000's when ALL went from 88c to $11 - and again no-one expected it to go to such lofty heights, let alone surpass them and head to $17, before crashing and burning again back to $1.88.

So yeah, we all look like geniuses, but when you look deeper and realise it is more the case of striking it lucky once or twice, then those years when you don't have one of those stocks in your portfolio the "real" returns come out. Problem then is that people get desperate for the next big 10-20 bagger in order to keep up their portfolio performance, and they take on more risk in the search for it, buying things that they normally wouldnt touch in the hope that it will be a huge turnaround, discover the cure for cancer, strike oil, or ride an industry boom etc - anything that will see the company's share price soar. But the increased risk usually results in reduced returns, not greater ones.

That is why you should always beware past performance, as its no guarantee of future performance.

Outstanding post KW. Worthy of inclusion in a Warren Buffet shareholders letter.

[D. Fender]

Castle Point is 100% owned by RAW Capital Partners NZ Ltd. Richard Avery-Wright is a 49% shareholder (via RCP Holdings Ltd in Guernsey) in RAW Capital Partners NZ Ltd.

[kiora]

This is for y'all invested in the Australian residential property development sector - no excuses if you later say you didnt see this one coming.
http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/house-price-growth-to-decrease-markedly-says-saul-eslake-20141117-11nysw.html

Is Australia any different from NZ in this ?

[D. Fender]

Pie Funds December newsletter just out.

[D. Fender]

According to the Sub notices filed by Pie Funds, since August 2014 Pie Funds has reduced its stake in RHP from 8.31% to below 5%, with the last sub notice being issued on 7th October.

[bull....]

yes definately a pattern from what ya say, must need some mugs to bid the price up to sell into a?

[NZSilver]

interesting to see they bought dil for USD exposure. But hard to tell what these guys are really up to.

[D. Fender]

Latest Morningstar results are out (to 30 Nov).

[Lizard]

Oh well, I can recommend the Devonport Chocolate freebies that arrived from Pie for Christmas... :)

[Lizard]

Pie Funds December newsletter just out. Mildly positive for most funds. Interesting to note though that by my calcs around $3m of new money was added to the 'closed' funds last month, while Pie continues to claim it's all about client returns and not gathering assets.

I think what you calculate might just be short-term fluctuations. The earliest I could get back to was the April Newsletter and, by my calculations, I think there were more fund units held then than in November, so the increase in December may have been replacement business for those that investors got the jitters in September/October?

Still think it is a brave move trying to operate a capped boutique fund in a tough space and that Mike deserves some respect for what he has achieved. I'm certainly happy with my investments and relaxed about keeping money with them through what must have been a disappointing year for them.

As for the newsletter timing versus the date of their actions, perhaps we could also assume that Pie Funds is writing the newsletters to entertain, educate and provide a level of connectedness with the investors in their funds, NOT writing the newsletters as a share-tipping service?

[D. Fender]

I think what you calculate might just be short-term fluctuations. The earliest I could get back to was the April Newsletter and, by my calculations, I think there were more fund units held then than in November, so the increase in December may have been replacement business for those that investors got the jitters in September/October?

Still think it is a brave move trying to operate a capped boutique fund in a tough space and that Mike deserves some respect for what he has achieved. I'm certainly happy with my investments and relaxed about keeping money with them through what must have been a disappointing year for them.

As for the newsletter timing versus the date of their actions, perhaps we could also assume that Pie Funds is writing the newsletters to entertain, educate and provide a level of connectedness with the investors in their funds, NOT writing the newsletters as a share-tipping service?

I know the track record.

[Lizard]

Well, I guess you would know better than anybody on here what the challenges are operating in this space.

1. Don't take new funds to keep the boutique approach = risk a sudden redemption run and forced to sell at lows. Answer - take in more cash when it is available and keep some aside for redemptions + attempt to ensure there is a waiting list for units when a current holder wants out.

2. Trade in the small/micro-cap space to get high returns = risk of having to hold large positions with associated liquidity risks and the inevitable difficulty in managing the confounding factors of time, price and market sentiment. Should you manage this for best long-term gain or least short-term volatility? No right answer.

3. Keep investors confidence through disclosure = run the risk of further confounding your own trades or being judged as misleading. Or of competitors using it against you - particular since the larger ones could delight in pushing your NAV around with their pocket money and undermining the very confidence you wish to create. No right answer.

4. Keep the fund small = costs have to be high relative to FUM and therefore the fund is going to look a shocker if the comparison is all about fees. Answer = the proof of the pudding is in the eating - and the long-term return to the investors matters more. (Maybe some investors here should try adding up their time cost and brokerage and trying to calculate the effective "fees" on their own portfolios).

Only the naive would expect Pie to be able to keep churning out the historic returns with an increasing FUM - and most of that increase comes from growth, not new investors - but it doesn't mean they can't still be a good investment for the future or should be considered "dodgy" in the way you seem to imply.

Looking forward to your analysis on MINT, the homzen. :)

[D. Fender]

I'm certainly not implying anyone is 'dodgy'.

[percy]

The homzen.
Have you ever worked for Pie Funds.?
Are you anyway connected with any Fund manager?
Disclosure.I enjoy reading The Pie Fund newsletter.They follow small cap companies I also follow.I find their commentaries refreshingly honest.

[Joshuatree]

Touche.....The question i was asking....myself;)

[1leon]

Touche.....The question i was asking....myself;)
Funny that. Usually you come out swinging for PIE and I might have wondered if you were on the payroll. I wonder why there is query of a poster's work rather than the points being made. It seems to me if people were to disclose their employer by name/ identify themselves this site would dry up and I suspect many would be embarrassed to associate their names to their boasts and trivia.

[dingoNZ]

Their newsletters are fantastic, I actually have found a number of companies I wasn't aware of which once I researched I have bought into. Look forward to getting their updates monthly!

[Joshuatree]

Funny that. Usually you come out swinging for PIE and I might have wondered if you were on the payroll. I wonder why there is query of a poster's work rather than the points being made. It seems to me if people were to disclose their employer by name/ identify themselves this site would dry up and I suspect many would be embarrassed to associate their names to their boasts and trivia.

Hi 1leon.Yes i started the thread and disclosed my int in 3 funds and have enjoyed the gains I've made. Be good to get a disclosure from The homzen; int that all but one of his/her posts have been only on PIE. I have enjoyed some of homs informative facts.

[1leon]

I find it refreshing to have someone limit his field--much more informative than someone who feels qualified to scatter him/her/it self all over the site! If you have found the posts informative it won't help anyone if Percy's question shuts him up!

[D. Fender]

We're all anonymous here.

[noodles]

The job of a fund manager is to grow FUM and fees. Its not to deliver returns to investors.
There are a couple of things about piefunds that make them a little different from the average fund manager:
1. All employees invest in their own funds
2. They get performance fees. So they are motivated to outperform.
3. But more importantly, I think Mike and his research staff are passionate stock pickers. The fact that they run a Fund Management business is probably secondary. Their prime motivation would be to out pick their peers.

Their pump and dump approach is to the benefit of their investors. They have no responsibility to the investing public whose choose to read their newsletter. The newsletter is to inform their investors.

[noodles]

That's the funniest thing I've read on ST for a long time. You meant it to be funny, right?

I was not meant to be funny. In retrospect, I suppose it does sound a little silly. Just my impressions after dealing with them.

[Beagle]

Latest Morningstar results are out (to 30 Nov). The 12 month returns (and position vs other Australasian equity funds) are:

Pie Growth: +8.31% (14th out of 19)
Pie Dividend: +8.16% (15th out of 19)
Pie Emerging: +13.67% (10th out of 19)

Pie Global: +9.51% (22nd out of 28 global equity PIE funds)

NZX 50 is up 17% this year...do they add any value ?..you guys be the judge.

[noodles]

NZX 50 is up 17% this year...do they add any value ?..you guys be the judge.
They are predominately an ASX investor. The ASX200 is flat for the year.

[noodles]

I mentioned to Liz that I dont think small caps are a place for fund managers. The market is too volatile, too illiquid, and too high risk to effectively enter and exit in a timely manner. First rule of thumb is to protect your investors capital - and you can't do that when small caps dive 20-50% in a few days and you have 10%+ of the company you need to sell. Look at TTN, AZV, RFL, GLH, and any number of other small companies that have disappointed this year and had their market caps halved or quartered by the market. In a bull market the returns are easy to come by, as the rising tide floats all boats, and towards the end of the bull run the riskier the growth the better. But in a bear market those same companies are going to get caned. Next year should be a shocker on the ASX as all the FY income downgrades hit the media in February. A fund manager is not truly tested until they meet a market downturn. PIE has yet to prove itself a stayer in bad times. What happens to the "stock pickers" when the safest place to be is in cash? (preferably US$ :-)
Agreed.
It will be interesting to see how they tackle the next crisis.
I note that their funds allow for shorts.

[BIRMANBOY]

So let me see if I got this straight...How many passionate pie stock pickers does it take to outpick a pack of prime peer pickers?:p


There are a couple of things about piefunds that make them a little different from the average fund manager:
3. But more importantly, I think Mike and his research staff are passionate stock pickers. The fact that they run a Fund Management business is probably secondary. Their prime motivation would be to out pick their peers.

[noodles]

Most of the Australian indices have performed poorly because of the predominance of mining stocks in both the top and bottom parts of the market. If you try to take them out, by looking at the MidCap 50 index for instance, its actually up 11% this year. Likewise if you wanted to compare the income oriented A-REIT index which is up 15% this year. Healthcare up 22%, Telecoms up 16%, Utilities up 10%, Financials up 8%. So basically if you had avoided any mining related stocks on the ASX and invested elsewhere you would have done just fine.

Perhaps not for this thread, but what do you see rolling over next? Perhaps the Banks? I note NAB is about to break through to fresh lows.

[DarkHorse]

So let me see if I got this straight...How many passionate pie stock pickers does it take to outpick a pack of prime peer pickers?:p LOL - very witty Birmanboy! :t_up:

[Toulouse - Luzern]

By my calculations (E&OE)
With a day or two to go Pie are likely to post results circa

AU Dividend Fund + 0.4% for the month
Global Small Companies Fund + 2.5% for the month

and for the year:

AU Dividend Fund + 8.96%
Global Small Companies Fund + 8.29%

[stoploss]

By my calculations (E&OE)
With a day or two to go Pie are likely to post results circa

AU Dividend Fund + 0.4% for the month
Result = + 1.8 %
Global Small Companies Fund + 2.5% for the month
Result= +0.6%

and for the year:

AU Dividend Fund + 8.96%
Result = 13.4 % ( benchmark XSOAI - 3.8%)
Global Small Companies Fund + 8.29%
Result =8.5% (benchmark 0% S&P GSCI)
Source piefunds Jan Newsletter

[brent]

Any ideas who this maybe? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11397159

[Joshuatree]

Click here to download the February newsletter (http://piefunds.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=466e5bf0449e5633d9d8e9a36&id=acca4feb89&e=93f5614bd1)

Global Fund 1.5% ytd
Emerging 3.2% ytd
Growth 2.6% ytd
Div fund 1.7% ytd

[Fisherking]

What would make you post that on this forum?

[Joshuatree]

Yes maybe brent didn't mean to but it comes across as mudslinging and innuendo with no proof/backup what so ever.
Be good to here from you, brent ..... sheather ? lol

An example like yours.

[stoploss]

There is a NBR article ( paid I don't have access)
sounds like 3 fund managers have denied it is them .

[fungus pudding]

What would make you post that on this forum?

What would make you post comment on this forum without reference to the post you mean?

[Fisherking]

1 too many wines!

Thought i'd clicked reply but clearly didn't.

I was referring to Brent's comment 1 above mine.

[Fisherking]

What would make you post comment on this forum without reference to the post you mean?

i really gotta stop drinking

[fungus pudding]

i really gotta stop drinking

You seem to be getting the hang of it. Been watering it down?

[bull....]

Academies Aus Grp down 31% ouch, looks like they may have been reducing sold 300k back in aug but still had over %5

[bull....]

Pie could be in trouble as they are heavily exposed to the private education sector, and reading the AKG report it would appear that the problems with cuts to govt spending and visa restrictions will be industry wide, not just an AKG problem.

yes big concentration in the sector, a high conviction they have obviously but with vocation and now akg are these warnings signs for the sector?

[Joshuatree]

Just checked my returns
PIE Australian 33% , gain bought 14/5/13
PIE Aust Emerging 100% gain ,bought Feb 2013
PIE Global smaller companies 16.66% gain ,bought sep 2013.

[percy]

Just checked my returns
PIE Australian 33% , gain bought 14/5/13
PIE Aust Emerging 100% gain ,bought Feb 2013
PIE Global smaller companies 16.66% gain ,bought sep 2013.

Excellent returns.
You will be very pleased with them.

[noodles]

I read in their latest newsletter than they are now buying put options to protect their portfolio from market downside risk. I wonder if they will be as good at picking the market top as they are at picking small caps. I guess they consider this as insurance, rather than a specific trading strategy.

Certainly made me consider my mostly unprotected long position in the market

[Joshuatree]

Pleased with one ; other two pretty ordinary.

[noodles]

Well Pie are "revisiting the strategy for the Australasian growth fund". What's the bet that it involves re-opening the fund, incorporating in Australia, maybe listing on the ASX - after all, there is now $3 Billion of Chinese money that needs to be deployed into the small cap sector by Chinese investors seeking a VISA - who wouldnt want a slice of that Pie (pun intended). Think of the fees, the fees!!!!
I think they want to become a Kiwisaver provider

[stoploss]

PIE will be taking a bath on CGO as well - with a 6.27% shareholding. The share price has lost more than half their value since August last year.

"CPT Global announces that the expected return to profitability in the second half of FY2015 included inthe outlook in the 31 December 2014 Half-Year Report has not eventuated.The issues CPT Global experienced in the first half of FY2015 have continued throughout the financial yearand the loss in the second half of the financial year will exceed the half year net loss after tax of $0.3m"

Fund performance is better than the average bear ...... remember he does buy puts as well ......

http://www.piefunds.co.nz/performance.html

[Entrep]

PIE is launching a 2nd growth fund - http://www.piefunds.co.nz/pdf/Pie_Growth2-Fund.pdf

[Harvey Specter]

PIE is launching a 2nd growth fund - http://www.piefunds.co.nz/pdf/Pie_Growth2-Fund.pdfCan anyone work out how it is different to the first one?

[stoploss]

Can anyone work out how it is different to the first one?

Unlisted equities and med sized companies as opposed to just "small cap "

[Harvey Specter]

Unlisted equities and med sized companies as opposed to just "small cap "
That explains the higher fund size as didn't he top the first one out at $50m.

[stoploss]

That explains the higher fund size as didn't he top the first one out at $50m.
Dividend is around 57 mio, growth 66 mio. The Global small cap unlimited .

[1leon]

Unlisted equities and med sized companies as opposed to just "small cap "
Actually wider than that--- PREDOMINANTLY smaller and medium sized companies AND OTHER TYPES OF FINANCIAL PRODUCTS SUCH AS CASH AND UNLISTED EQUITIES.
Financial products might give enormous range of frightening possibilities!

[Entrep]

I think they are going to focus on $500m to $1B companies

[Entrep]

Anyone think performance will start suffering? Happens all the time, the bigger a manager gets, the worse the performance. They just become asset gatherers living off management fees. 1.5% is high as well, those are hedge fund fees.

[bull....]

index funds and etf.s way to go if you can access them thru a broker in the us and agree the fees payable on funds in nz is just pure robbery so I can see why fund managers become asset gatherers not just pie all of them actually siphons off billions in the long run from consumers pockets

[Joshuatree]

Performance to March 15th from Annual Report in my mailbox today.

Pie Aust Growth Fund from Dec 07 302.9% gain outperformed XSO benchmark by 348.7% Top performing fund out of ALL funds in Australasia 5 star Morning Star rating

Pie Aust Div Fund from Sep 2011 113.3% gain outperformed XSOAI by 113.6% 5 star Morningstar rating

Pie AustEmerging Fund from April 2013 102.3% gain outperformed XEC by 115.4%

Pie Global Fund from sep 2013(fully invested Dec 2013) 16,4% since inception under perform GSCI by 1.1%

Growth Fund still out on its own.Be int to see how well the other 3 compered with other Australasian Funds; ignoring the benchmark indexes above.

[pennyacw]

Love the propaganda but come on. It is the 4th working day of the month and you are talking about a manager that is growing - resulting in a high likelihood that processes will take longer. Milford, Harbour, Elevation Capital, Castle Point etc has not released their returns either.

Your damned if you do and damned if you don't. Others have critised Pie for discussing stocks they invest in, due to concern of talking up stocks and sectors.

[Bilbo]

Anyone else noticed the Pie newsletters are getting sent out later and later? Pay attention to AKG down 25%, VSC down 31% and MNY down 22% over the last month. Not very helpful when you are trying to increase your fee generating funds under management is it?

Also, I notice that Pie have stopped telling investors what the top holdings are in their portfolio, (other than a couple that they choose to share the good news on). Seems transparency has gone by the wayside as soon as performance started slipping. Not very honest is it?

KW - they show the top 5 holdings in each fund on the fund fact sheet but not in the newsletters (but both are included in the monthly email I receive). You can view the fact sheet for each fund on the website too.

Pay attention also to the good results from the likes of VTG which is a top 5 holding in 4 of the funds and is up from 76c to $2.05 in the last 12 months. Rhipe has also doubled in the ;at 12 months. There are always swings and roundabouts in the investing game and you can't focus just on the winners or losers, you need to look at the overall return which for PIE has been more than acceptable over the last 5 years.

[Entrep]

Coincidentally applications for PIE Growth #2 were sent out today.

I am attracted to it. I am pretty hopeless as an individual stock picker on my own and need some professional help. Have been thinking of ETFs, but I think they are too boring. I think PIE Funds Growth is a good mix, for me, of being hands off/I can forget about it, but also involved in investing in stocks that have a reasonable chance of doubling etc.

I like the thrill, but think hands off is the way to go for me. Otherwise to be honest I'm just gambling.

[Bilbo]

I wasnt looking at the last 12 months but the last ONE month. Just highlighting the volatility of a small cap fund, and showing that past performance (ie. 12 months) can be undone by a single month when a whole bunch of stocks hit the skids. And if you want to talk 12 months performance then we can add in AKG (down 60%) and CGO (down 52%) and CGR (down 32%) and adjust VSC to down 45%. And MNY has lost all its gains for the year.

Its going to be an interesting year for small cap funds - they wont have the benefit of a rampant bull market to make them look good. As Buffet famously said, when the tide goes out you get to see who is swimming naked :-) And considering the fees Pie charge, hope they have their togs on LOL

Are you a client or just having a crack? To suggest these guys are swimming naked is crazy and if your focus is one month then get out or invest in the cash fund. Their equity funds are classified as high risk with investment timeframes of 5 years not 1 month. AND you have not mentioned and do not know the weighting of each of those stocks you list in the funds. From my sharesight reports the 3 Pie funds I am invested in are all up for the last month (although that is 7 july to 7 aug).

Growth investing is not for everyone and makes up only part of my portfolio. The day I met Pie Funds and Mike for the first time I was buzzing because I had finally found an investment manager who shared my beliefs instead of the overly conservative investment advisers I had dealt with previously. Some people are so scared of losing money they end up not making money.

Happy client invested in 3 funds.

[couta1]

Yes Bilbo and reading posts from some posters on other threads I don't know why they bother getting out of bed in the morning after all it's a risky activity.

[Harvey Specter]

The day I met Pie Funds and Mike for the first time I was buzzing because I had finally found an investment manager who shared my beliefs instead of the overly conservative investment advisers I had dealt with previously. Do you think he has changed over time. His funds are getting bigger so it is harder for him to still apply his original strategy.

I know this is something Milford struggled with as their FUM increased. Likewise Kingfisher. Any decision is pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy when committing a lot of money because as you deploy funds, the price will drift up and as you withdraw funds, the price will drift down.

[Joshuatree]

[QUOTE=KW;584817]Anyone else noticed the Pie newsletters are getting sent out later and later? Pay attention to AKG down 25%, VSC down 31% and MNY down 22% over the last month. Not very helpful when you are trying to increase your fee generating funds under management is it?

quote KW.Also, I notice that Pie have stopped telling investors what the top holdings are in their portfolio, (other than a couple that they choose to share the good news on). Seems transparency has gone by the wayside as soon as performance started slipping. Not very honest is it?

14/12/14 KW [/QUOTEThose companies you are buying into are the same ones Pie has deemed to be rubbish enough that they have actually exited them by the time you get that newsletter. Still think those newsletter tips are fantastic? More fool you.

No pleasing you i know KW.Managed funds are a button pusher for you.I think they have their place and also that the industry has cleaned up alot;its not the Rort it used to be; however there still are legacy things like trailing fees which aint good.Many of us don't have your confidence and skills in managing all our picks.
Its possible PIE aren't so generous with their stocksharing (and transparency)now because of criticism like yours above14/12/14.Which is a shame. The boat fund and a number of my sophisticated faves on H/C rate PIE highly and are often in/talking about their picks(or were when PIE were more open.

They aren't a passive fund btw, active in fact and cash up when necessary.

Hey Entrep i thought it was the gambling that created the THRILL , initially anyway:)

[Bilbo]

Do you think he has changed over time. His funds are getting bigger so it is harder for him to still apply his original strategy.

I know this is something Milford struggled with as their FUM increased. Likewise Kingfisher. Any decision is pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy when committing a lot of money because as you deploy funds, the price will drift up and as you withdraw funds, the price will drift down.

Yes valid point. He has committed to keeping the fund size small and has talked about returning funds to investors when fund size gets too large. They have been able to grow total FUM by adding new funds rather than letting existing funds get too large, but more funds will spread the focus of the key staff more thinly.

My biggest concern with small companies is the effect of buy/sell decisions of the fund on the underlying sp and maybe selling down by Pie is some of the reason the shares mentioned previously have dropped in value. I think Pie may be much more active in taking profits than most of the Milford funds.

[1leon]

Yes valid point. He has committed to keeping the fund size small and has talked about returning funds to investors when fund size gets too large. They have been able to grow total FUM by adding new funds rather than letting existing funds get too large, but more funds will spread the focus of the key staff more thinly.


My biggest concern with small companies is the effect of buy/sell decisions of the fund on the underlying sp and maybe selling down by Pie is some of the reason the shares mentioned previously have dropped in value. I think Pie may be much more active in taking profits than most of the Milford funds.

But it seems to me that with several Funds including holdings in the same companies the idea that the individual Funds are kept small is becoming increasingly meaningless. The new Fund will exacerbate that situation.

The combined holding over several Funds plus the new super sized Fund might seem to have greater liquidity problems.

As I posted earlier the new Fund extends beyond small caps to mid caps and other financial products. The investment statement gives no indication of any intended split. Given also Taylor has always only claimed specialty in small caps the rationalisation of moving to other fields isn't obvious.

[stoploss]

Anyone else noticed the Pie newsletters are getting sent out later and later? Pay attention to AKG down 25%, VSC down 31% and MNY down 22% over the last month. Not very helpful when you are trying to increase your fee generating funds under management is it?

Also, I notice that Pie have stopped telling investors what the top holdings are in their portfolio, (other than a couple that they choose to share the good news on). Seems transparency has gone by the wayside as soon as performance started slipping. Not very honest is it?

Hot off the press !!!
http://www.piefunds.co.nz/newsletters/PieFunds_Newsletter_August_2015.pdf?utm_source=Pie +Funds+Newsletter&utm_campaign=8815dcb168-Slice_of_Pie_August+_Newsletter_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_caf8d1b289-8815dcb168-346237729

[Bilbo]

I'd love to know how Pie managed to get a 50% increase on YTD returns for the Growth Fund in the single month of July (going from 9.9% end of June to 15.1% end of July), considering the performance of the stocks I mentioned. Seems suss to me. Anyone got an explanation?

My thoughts: The stocks you mentioned have a low weighting in the fund, they may even have sold out of those stocks. Other stocks, e.g TIL more than made up for the weakness in the stocks you mentioned.

[Bilbo]

I'd love to know how Pie managed to get a 50% increase on YTD returns for the Growth Fund in the single month of July (going from 9.9% end of June to 15.1% end of July), considering the performance of the stocks I mentioned. Seems suss to me. Anyone got an explanation?

Also, data is for July. MNY tanked after 31 July, and was actually up for July. Likewise VSCs big fall happened after July month end.

[stoploss]

I'd love to know how Pie managed to get a 50% increase on YTD returns for the Growth Fund in the single month of July (going from 9.9% end of June to 15.1% end of July), considering the performance of the stocks I mentioned. Seems suss to me. Anyone got an explanation?

KW correct me if I am wrong but I think Trustees Executors do all the calculations on performance of the funds etc , so unfair of you to be saying this is "suss" and fingering PIE imo.
I am pretty sure as of June this was around 25 % Cash , so could have been paring back the losers over July and riding the winners like VTG ?? Don't know but the valuations etc are out of their hands , so think they can be relied upon .

[Snoopy]

I think the newsletter demonstrated the problems with small cap fund managers - exiting poorly performing stocks. PIE are quite good stock pickers (except for those TTN and WDS picks) but its foolish to think that small caps are a buy and hold position. Its extremely hard to get out of them when you need to, its hard enough for people with small individual holdings to exit due to the lack of liquidity, so trying to exit a substantial shareholding without dragging the price down substantially, is nigh on impossible. And in that case, the actions of funds like PIE drag everyone's returns down as well.


KW has articulated very well why small cap shares are difficult to book trading profits with. This is quite a well documented effect, where profits on paper suddenly disappear due to liquidity problems when a fund that owns the small cap shares in question tries to sell. However, I do disagree with the bit I have emboldened.

It is precisely this poor liquidity that makes small caps a buy and hold proposition. You have to buy in full knowledge that you will very likely not be able to get out in a hurry. That means you have to do very good due diligence knowing that if your small cap does have issues it will more than likely get over those issues eventually.

SNOOPY

[Snoopy]

Even if you were in a position to do due diligence (SGH anyone?)


Due diligence is not an automatic step that will approve any investment. You may find that a company fills all legal requirements and is very meticulous about reporting their affairs over several years. Yet all that information might not be enough for someoine such as myself as an investor.



changes in the macro environment are usually unseen, and will impact on a company's prospects regardless of how good management are. Witness collapsing commodity prices (mining services), changes to govt healthcare funding (diagnostic companies), changes to immigration policy (education providers), bank lending decisions (money transfer, payday lending), enviornmental policy (solar providers), tax changes (salary packagers), technology changes (IT providers) - the list goes on and on.


My bold highlighting is important. I would only invest in a company that an idiot can run, because once current management move on you might find that an idiot is running it! The most important thing for the companies I invest in is resilience. Macro events do change (and throw up all sorts of investment opportunities in the process). The real question is does your target investment have the resilience to handle such macro interruptions. If it doesn't, then don't invest in it.

SNOOPY

[Snoopy]

I am not sure if any company is really resilient to macro interruptions. If there are any, they are few and far between. It is far easier to learn when to sell out once a profitable trend is over.


If a say a company is resilient I don't mean it is unaffected by macro events. I mean there is an excellent chance it will bounce back in the medium term. If you know that, then there is no need to sell when the trend is over. Because you know down the track there will be another trend which you can surf and sell out of, if you want to. Just relax! Far better than being glued to your cellphone in a constant degree of nervousness, at the whim of Mr Market.

Yet if the company is resilient, why would you want to sell? I guess to optimise portfolio performance? But even then, there are very few companies that are either 100% bad or 100% good. So all buy sell decisions are really grey, even if you can make up statistics based on moving averages to prove to your self that any buy sell decision is otherwise.

I have a company that I am looking to sell out of soon. It is currently plumbing new market lows. But dividends are good and it is not overvalued. I don't need to add to my 3% cash fund. The company is not overvalued on a fundamental basis. So for the forseeable future I may just keep it.

SNOOPY

[Bilbo]

Well, yes. Isnt that exactly what you are paying an active fund manager to do? If they are doing nothing but buying and holding regardless of performance, then you would be better off in a passive index fund with low fees. I keep saying that buying shares is easy - selling them is the hard part. But knowing when to sell is equally (if not more) important than knowing when and what to buy. If you cant get a handle on it, you will incur capital losses (or will watch your profits disappear) and worse, the opportunity cost of not being invested in something profitable while you are stuck in a dud stock for months/years. If you want to buy and hold you are better off in bigger companies which are more stable, and as Snoopy says, more resilient. Small caps are not resilient - one hiccup and their working capital requirements are buggered, and their share price crashes. One earnings miss and you can kiss goodbye to 20-30% of your capital. So any small cap fund manager should be very active - far more so than if they were managing a mid-cap portfolio. That's the nature of the game.

I think some fund managers think that every small cap they buy is going to turn into a mid cap then a large cap company, so all they have to do is buy it and wait. It doesnt work like that in this space. Very few small cap companies go on to become mid caps, and only a tiny handful become large caps. Most of them simply muddle along with some good years and some bad, and a large percentage disappear altogether.

KW, have you ever invested with PIE?

I have and are very happy with their performance. I don't understand why you are so negative about them or is it just small cap in general that you have an issue with?

My investment horizon is 50+ years, and small cap, early stage and growth stocks make up a small to medium but very important part of my portfolio. They are what have and will continue to provide the outperformance over the longer term. I used to own my own small business which I grew and sold, now I invest some of my savings in other small businesses which I expect to grow and see this as a similar strategy to being an owner of my own business. Part of my exposure to this sector is via PIE because I see them as experts in the sector in NZ/AU and trust their expertise in selecting similar managers for the global fund.

[Bilbo]

Its with active fund managers in general - study after study has proven that the vast majority of them are useless, and all they do is rake in fees for themselves while pretending to be in it for the investors.

And I think the Australian/NZ small cap space is too small for multiple fund managers to play in - it just leads to everyone chasing the same stocks, pushing up the share price to over valued levels, which results in massive losses of capital to investors when the price eventually crashes, and unnecessary volatility in the marketplace. Just think about what happens when 3 or 4 funds all pile into a stock wanting 5-10% positions (they all need large positions in order to make the investment meaningful) then think about what happens when those same funds decide they want to sell. You better hope you beat them to the exit.

It seems like every man and his dog is setting up small cap funds at the moment - and it will be worse once the SIV money starts flowing. Its going to make a high risk sector even riskier.

I've been down the passive route and decided it's not for me although I use ETFs when appropriate. I've never been one to accept being average in any aspect of my life so why would I take the average returns of a passive index approach.

[Snoopy]

Well, yes. Isnt that exactly what you are paying an active fund manager to do? If they are doing nothing but buying and holding regardless of performance, then you would be better off in a passive index fund with low fees.


I would pay a fund manager to execute a strategy. Some strategies underperform during the growth phase and outperform in any subsequent consolidation phase, and outperform overall. Value investment is one such strategy. Following such a strategy will see you underperform the index during boom times. The fact that my own share portfolio underperforms during boom times is not a defect of my strategy. It is exactly what I expect to happen. The fact that I have outperformed the index significantly in down times is also what I expect.

In short, if I follow a strategy that outperforms the index by 4-5 percentage points per year over the long run (many years), then I am satisfied. The fact that I underperfom the index for some periods (maybe even two years) is not even on my radar. I don't care what the index does, because at any time my investment sail boat wil be on a different course, looking for different benchmarks. I have missed every single boom on the market since I can remember. But I have also escaped every bust. And it is actually that last bit that is the key to not blowing all the build up work you have done.



I keep saying that buying shares is easy - selling them is the hard part. But knowing when to sell is equally (if not more) important than knowing when and what to buy. If you cant get a handle on it, you will incur capital losses (or will watch your profits disappear) and worse, the opportunity cost of not being invested in something profitable while you are stuck in a dud stock for months/years.


Sell then, and put your cash in a 3% account. I would rather retain my capital in good dividend paying shares earning twice as much as that and ride out the investment cycle thanks.



If you want to buy and hold you are better off in bigger companies which are more stable, and as Snoopy says, more resilient. Small caps are not resilient - one hiccup and their working capital requirements are buggered, and their share price crashes. One earnings miss and you can kiss goodbye to 20-30% of your capital. So any small cap fund manager should be very active - far more so than if they were managing a mid-cap portfolio. That's the nature of the game.


I think that depends on the definition of small. I would define 'small' in relation to the target market a company operates in. Some small caps could be very predictable if they operate in a clearly defined niche.



I think some fund managers think that every small cap they buy is going to turn into a mid cap then a large cap company, so all they have to do is buy it and wait. It doesnt work like that in this space. Very few small cap companies go on to become mid caps, and only a tiny handful become large caps. Most of them simply muddle along with some good years and some bad, and a large percentage disappear altogether.


Very true. I concur with your broad opinion on 'small caps' and investment funds designed to chase returns from them. The trick of starting several funds in the same space then quietly closing down the non performers while hailing the success of the best that remains because of the fund manager's incredible skill is another trick to watch out for.

SNOOPY

[stoploss]

I'd love to know how Pie managed to get a 50% increase on YTD returns for the Growth Fund in the single month of July (going from 9.9% end of June to 15.1% end of July), considering the performance of the stocks I mentioned. Seems suss to me. Anyone got an explanation?

KW this might answer your question , he mentions holding shorts on the market in this interview ....
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Mike-Taylor-Managing-Director-PIE-Funds/tabid/506/articleID/94869/Default.aspx

[Joshuatree]

Mike Taylor in Juno mag today extolling XERO; promoting it heavily without quite recommending it; sounds like he has been hooked by seemingly serial spinmesiter Rod Drury(who is also interviewed) .The mag has been binned.

[stoploss]

Mike Taylor in Juno mag today extolling XERO; promoting it heavily without quite recommending it; sounds like he has been hooked by serial spinmesiter Rod Duke (who is also interviewed) .The mag has been binned.

Rod Duke really ?????

[Joshuatree]

Rod Duke really ?????

Whoops it is of course Rod Drury ;also interviewed at the back, thanks stop loss.. Laying it on thick eh. If PIE have bought in and it looks likely from this article; they will be in the RED today but i guess thats just one point in time.

ps the mag is out of the bin as there are a few decent articles.

[stoploss]

Whoops it is of course Rod Drury ;also interviewed at the back, thanks stop loss.. Laying it on thick eh. If PIE have bought in and it looks likely from this article; they will be in the RED today but i guess thats just one point in time.

ps the mag is out of the bin as there are a few decent articles.

Finally got out of the bunker and found my copy in the mail . A dollar or two in the red won't worry them , they rode TIL all the way down and are looking good now :)

[stoploss]

Well August should be a ripper for them if they are short the market LOL

Newsletter is out so performance for Month of Aug 2015, Growth -2.8%, New Growth +2 % ( fund size 10.4 mil ) Global Fund -2.4 %, Emerging Fund - 0.9 % , Dividend Fund - 4 %

[Joshuatree]

Maintaining High hedging cover with put options and selling futures and holding cash.

Also Buying wit their ears pinned back (12 stocks mentioned)taking advantage of the worst month on the ASX since oct 2008. Still have plenty of dry powder remaining. Thats confidence for you. We will see if their timing has been ok.

[Felonius]

Oh dear, sounds like XRO is a foundation stock of their new growth fund

My reading of this article is quite different to yours. Sure Mike Taylor is impressed with Xero and Rod Drury's entrepreneurial ability, and rightly so. However he stated quite clearly that the business is difficult to value even for him. In my view there is absolutely NO indication that Mike is buying the stock for any of his funds. Sorry Joshuatree but I think you should read the article again very carefully.

[Joshuatree]

Don't be sorry:). 98% of it is positive and promoting of XRO and Mike sensibly covers himself by telling "you" to do your own research. Its a great spruik, with lots of admiration with numerous lines i could quote but just one from me , below.I agree there is no proof PIE is buying/has bought Xero.But more likely than not going on the "glow" and 5 mins with Rod Drury a few pages further on. PIE have avery good track record and i have holdings in 3 of their funds.

Mike Taylor " In summary I think Xero has all the ingredients necessary to become New Zealands largest company and be recognised as a top 100 Global company"

[bull....]

I imagine its only a matter of time when technology catches up ( bit like the Netflix of funds model accessable to everyone eventually) and nz's hedge fund like fee structure becomes a dinosuar

[Harvey Specter]

I imagine its only a matter of time when technology catches up ( bit like the Netflix of funds model accessable to everyone eventually) and nz's hedge fund like fee structure becomes a dinosuarYes - something like https://www.wealthfront.com/ would be great. NZX has brought out some great low cost index funds but unfortunately added their only layer of fees.

[Joshuatree]

I agree that owning fund managers shares rather than their funds is prob a better strategy :), thinking Aus ones.. Owning some PIE funds fits within my personal portfolio structure atp ; but may well change at any point e.g. if health issues aren't resolved, portfolio takes a hit; i score a massive win etc. Diff for everyone on their situ and skill sets.

[Joshuatree]

Skimming through latest newsletter. VTG is there first 10 bagger stock. Completely exited IQE last month.

Performance annualised since inception
PIE GROWTH 20.7%P/A
PIE DIV 20.5%P/A
PIE EMERGING 41.9%
PIE GLOBAL8.6% P/A
PIE CASH 3%
PIE GROWTH 2 14.1%

[Fisherking]

I agree that owning fund managers shares rather than their funds is prob a better strategy :), thinking Aus ones.. Owning some PIE funds fits within my personal portfolio structure atp ; but may well change at any point e.g. if health issues aren't resolved, portfolio takes a hit; i score a massive win etc. Diff for everyone on their situ and skill sets.

Totally agree JT, I also have $ in 2 of the PIE funds and am very impressed with the returns they've been delivering. It's a pity to lose KW but he did seem to have some grudge with this fund.

[bull....]

interesting article by brent sheather

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11599449

so true, all the new fmc act has done and the new financial advisor laws is try to give the same old rorts a look of respectability as far as fees go, also have pushed the small financial advisors out of business and sent the business to the sales people at the big end of town

[Joshuatree]

What fees does brent sheather charge and does he invest your hard earned in funds which take fees as well?

[Toulouse - Luzern]

[QUOTE=Joshuatree;602595]

"Skimming through latest newsletter"

April 2016 Newsletter Update and Quick Analysis:

Looking at performance for one month (March):

PIE GROWTH 5.7%
PIE DIV 4.0%
PIE EMERGING 2.6%
PIE GLOBAL 2.1%
PIE CASH 1.0%
PIE GROWTH2 5.1%

PieFunds comment re Global.

* Underweight US stocks.
* US DOW rallied 7.0% in March.
* 35% of fund is in cash.

Looks like PieFunds are waiting for better US opportunities and stayed out to avoid the US carnage in January - February.

Comparatively:

Out of 40+ Rabodirect managed funds

* 15 did better in the month than the best PieFund
* 16 did worse than the worst PieFund.

I think further comparison is not worth my time.
EG. % pa.

PieFunds or Rabo making all the hard decisions will suit many.

[Joshuatree]

Its been well worth my time not having to put any time into this investment.
It will be 3 years next month and I'm 75% plus up. Not bad for a sleep easy passive (for me)investment; bound to be better ones though; i d like to hear about anyones similar or better.
The PIE Growth fund ,7th out of 250,000 Funds Globally.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Hi

Anybody else going to the Pie Funds ANZ Auckland Viaduct Conference on 21 March 2017

[brend]

Hi

Anybody else going to the Pie Funds ANZ Auckland Viaduct Conference on 21 March 2017

Roger and I are both registered for the afternoon one.

However I see they have a conference in the morning aimed more towards financial advisors and is worth 5 CPD hours....not sure if Roger is hungry for some free CPD.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Hi,

I am going to the afternoon one.
I have met Roger at a Summerset AGM, with Couta and others.
See you there

[Beagle]

Roger and I are both registered for the afternoon one.

However I see they have a conference in the morning aimed more towards financial advisors and is worth 5 CPD hours....not sure if Roger is hungry for some free CPD.

Sick of CPD and have a full compliment of hours already this year but thanks for pointing it out.

[bull....]

guess pie will be playing down there difficult year to you all at the conference. There not alone most nz fund managers are finding it tough the last 6 mths .

[Sideshow Bob]

Have some of the Global Fund. Done OK but nowhere near some of the others, and looking to exit soon. Hope some of the current USD strengthening can tweak up the price.

[bull....]

Have some of the Global Fund. Done OK but nowhere near some of the others, and looking to exit soon. Hope some of the current USD strengthening can tweak up the price.

Global where the action has been for sure, I see the head guy of pie gave up as portfolio manager of nz and aus portfolios ( another baling at the top?) to go to the portfolio where the action is. wonder why?

[Sideshow Bob]

Global where the action has been for sure, I see the head guy of pie gave up as portfolio manager of nz and aus portfolios ( another baling at the top?) to go to the portfolio where the action is. wonder why?

unfortuntely need the money elsewhere. Our builder needs a new ute

[777]

Global where the action has been for sure, I see the head guy of pie gave up as portfolio manager of nz and aus portfolios ( another baling at the top?) to go to the portfolio where the action is. wonder why?

You can only spread yourself so far.

[bull....]

pie has been doing alot of selling in some core holdings recently if the less than flattering comments about them on hotcopper are to be believed.

[Joshuatree]

What thread/stocks so i can have a look; thanks.

[Beagle]

Does anyone else think a 1.5% base management fee and 15% performance fee is a little over the top ?

[Joshuatree]

Last i looked i had a 75% return in 3 years up to may 2016 in the growth fund so fees certainly wern't over the top for that fund. I keep thinking the performance will revert to the norm at some stage and better update myself .If it does yes those fees will then look exorbitant but then they are in a higher risk small/micro cap zone with its own inherent risks. It has been a successful part of my diversified portfolio (PIE)but yes i do need to update where its at. I understand some of the other funds have had more "normal" returns.

[stoploss]

My "Emerging Fund" investment is more normal 30.6 % Pa since inception Apr 2013 ......

[bull....]

What thread/stocks so i can have a look; thanks.

i was checking the mny,eml thread and saw the comments

example peterdoobes says
I know everyone likes to talk up their book but this is pretty blatant. Extract from newsletter emailed on 7 Feb:

"EML is our largest position at Pie because we believe the
market will eventually ignore the distractions and resume
its focus on the rapid earnings growth."

From 8 Feb to 23 Feb - holding reduced by 3.83m shares...

I myself was eluding to the possibility on this thread back in 2014 they maybe possibly doing pump and dumps? thru newsletters

[Beagle]

Last i looked i had a 75% return in 3 years up to may 2016 in the growth fund so fees certainly wern't over the top for that fund. I keep thinking the performance will revert to the norm at some stage and better update myself .If it does yes those fees will then look exorbitant but then they are in a higher risk small/micro cap zone with its own inherent risks. It has been a successful part of my diversified portfolio (PIE)but yes i do need to update where its at. I understand some of the other funds have had more "normal" returns.

Not trying to antagonize you Joshuatree but a genuine question, is this the fund you're invested in ? The one that's had a net return before tax of only 1.4% over the last year vs a market index return of 13% ?
https://www.piefunds.co.nz/assets/Fact-Sheets/Growth.pdf

One of the main advantages / disadvantages managed funds that chase large shareholdings in illiquid stocks like TIL have is that while they're building a large stake they can enjoy significant market outperformance (earning very substantial performance fees) simply through the weight of their money driving up the share prices of the companies they invest in.
However the opposite is equally true, once they have a large position they can easily find they've dug themselves into an intransigent position that's extremely difficult to extricate themselves from without inflicting a lot of pain on their investors. "Strange" that they never refund those performance fees when the very shares that created those performance fees go into meltdown isn't it.
Just thinking out loud here does that explain why they've closed this fund and opened a growth fund MK2 ?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to update us on your 3 years 10 months performance and share your thoughts on how well you feel they handled the TIL share price meltdown ?
Do you remain confident going forward in their ability to outperform the market after their management fee and performance fees and tax especially taking into account the sort of fiasco TIL turned out to be ?

Emerging Market fund has also dramatically underperformed the relevant index in the last year...more examples of TIL out there ?

While it is fair to say their new growth fund Mk2 has slightly outperformed, (before tax) the relevant index in the last year, after tax investors still would have been better off with the index return with no tax.

I am not convinced and the old investor adage of "past performance is no guarantee of future performance" springs readily to mind.
Disc No advice here, just plenty of food for thought and good banter.

[Joshuatree]

i was checking the mny,eml thread and saw the comments

example peterdoobes says
I know everyone likes to talk up their book but this is pretty blatant. Extract from newsletter emailed on 7 Feb:

"EML is our largest position at Pie because we believe the
market will eventually ignore the distractions and resume
its focus on the rapid earnings growth."

From 8 Feb to 23 Feb - holding reduced by 3.83m shares...

I myself was eluding to the possibility on this thread back in 2014 they maybe possibly doing pump and dumps? thru newsletters



Thanks ,yes i remember KW suggesting the same when she was around.

[Joshuatree]

Will get back to you when i update myself. As i said i keep expecting the fund to revert to the norm as its pretty hard to keep outperforming as they have/had and when /if it does i will reassess.

[stoploss]

Not trying to antagonize you Joshuatree but a genuine question, is this the fund you're invested in ? The one that's had a net return before tax of only 1.4% over the last year vs a market index return of 13% ?
https://www.piefunds.co.nz/assets/Fact-Sheets/Growth.pdf

One of the main advantages / disadvantages managed funds that chase large shareholdings in illiquid stocks like TIL have is that while they're building a large stake they can enjoy significant market outperformance (earning very substantial performance fees) simply through the weight of their money driving up the share prices of the companies they invest in.
However the opposite is equally true, once they have a large position they can easily find they've dug themselves into an intransigent position that's extremely difficult to extricate themselves from without inflicting a lot of pain on their investors. "Strange" that they never refund those performance fees when the very shares that created those performance fees go into meltdown isn't it.
Just thinking out loud here does that explain why they've closed this fund and opened a growth fund MK2 ?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to update us on your 3 years 10 months performance and share your thoughts on how well you feel they handled the TIL share price meltdown ?
Do you remain confident going forward in their ability to outperform the market after their management fee and performance fees and tax especially taking into account the sort of fiasco TIL turned out to be ?

Emerging Market fund has also dramatically underperformed the relevant index in the last year...more examples of TIL out there ?

While it is fair to say their new growth fund Mk2 has slightly outperformed, (before tax) the relevant index in the last year, after tax investors still would have been better off with the index return with no tax.

I am not convinced and the old investor adage of "past performance is no guarantee of future performance" springs readily to mind.
Disc No advice here, just plenty of food for thought and good banter.

Hi Roger ,
If you take a read of the March newsletter they acknowledge that mistakes have been made and they have had a review .So some soul searching going on.....
https://www.piefunds.co.nz/assets/newsletters/PieFunds-Newsletter-March-2017/Monthly-Newsletter-March2017.pdf?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Slice%20of%20Pie%20-%20March%202017&utm_content=Slice%20of%20Pie%20-%20March%202017+CID_6d8c0fb8e68a068c145c351239e668 e5&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=Click%20here%20to%20view%20the%20monthly% 20newsletter%20httpswwwpiefundsconzassetsnewslette rsPieFunds-Newsletter-Februrary-2017Monthly-Newsletter-Februarypdf
As an investor I never expect them to win all the time and we all know nobody does .So if they have learnt from the TIL experience that's a bonus , I take your point about funds driving up the price of an asset . However I think a lesson might have been learnt here re position size . PIE would have realised they are no longer a boutique with a capped pool of funds @ 50 mio ......being a mini tanker still takes some turning around .... Just remember the PIE staff don't want the funds to be losing money " Staff , Directors and shareholders have $ 65 mio invested in PIE funds "
Lastly re the emerging fund "dramatically under performing the index
1 year return of the xec 14.43 %
Pie says the emerging fund is up 9.5 % in the past year .
5 year return of the XEC is - 5.36 % PA vs Pie since April 2013 ( inception ) + 184 % 30.6 % PA
I think these numbers speak for themselves .
http://us.spindices.com/indices/equity/sp-asx-emerging-companies-index

[Beagle]

Hi Stoploss

Thanks for those links, looking forward to reviewing that info tomorrow and discussing further.

[Joshuatree]

Thanks stoploss for the facts.:t_up:
Just checked my own holdings and yes after expenses/fees
Australasian Emerging is up 173% since 14/5/13 roughly 45.5% per annum
Australasian Div Fund is up 60.3% since june 2013 roughly 16% per annum
Global Small companies the laggard up 32.32% since Sept 2013 roughly 8.94% per annum.

​Not sure where i got the 75% from previously but have double checked these figs above, this time.

[TJP]

Any Pie Hole-ders (ha excuse the dad joke) noticing the pie performance recently? pretty crappy (across several funds). Pie aren't very transparent about what is going on behind the scenes. Any thoughts? Imagine that TIL was a super bad investment for them. But what other lemons?

disc. holding

[percy]

Any Pie Hole-ders (ha excuse the dad joke) noticing the pie performance recently? pretty crappy (across several funds). Pie aren't very transparent about what is going on behind the scenes. Any thoughts? Imagine that TIL was a super bad investment for them. But what other lemons?

disc. holding
I was at a HBL presentation last Wednesday night, and spoke to a very highly regarded ChCh fund manager.I told him I always read his news letter,and watched what he invested in.He said "I hope you are doing better than us this year".
I also follow a small cap Australian fund which has had two bad months.
So I don't think Pie are alone.

[Sideshow Bob]

Recently sold out as needed the money elsewhere, but wasn't disappointed to withdraw funds. I only rate the return as average at best, given the market it had been riding.

[TJP]

I was at a HBL presentation last Wednesday night, and spoke to a very highly regarded ChCh fund manager.I told him I always read his news letter,and watched what he invested in.He said to "I hope you are doing better than us this year".
I also follow a small cap Australian fund which has had two bad months.
So I don't think Pie are alone.

Yea, I guess so far I've been put some interest into shares like GTK, ATM and FPH and seen better returns in the past couple of months that in Pie. Wondering if I can do better on my own. I know the suggested investment window is 5 years, but I get a little impatient knowing my money could be working harder for me. I mean these guys are meant to do this stuff for their day jobs, should do better than your average schmo.

[Felonius]

Pie Funds first invested in Ecoya in April 2012 at 90 cents per share, alongside Milford Asset Management and before the company changed it's name to Trilogy. By Sept '15 or thereabouts Pie were extremely bullish about Trilogy's prospects and had started buying heavily from $1.00 per share or less. Despite having paid too much for their last holdings, I believe Pie Funds will have made good money from investing in this company.

[TJP]

Recently sold out as needed the money elsewhere, but wasn't disappointed to withdraw funds. I only rate the return as average at best, given the market it had been riding.

Yea I am feeling you there too Bob, starting to get a little ansy and thinking about a withdrawl myself...

[stoploss]

Any Pie Hole-ders (ha excuse the dad joke) noticing the pie performance recently? pretty crappy (across several funds). Pie aren't very transparent about what is going on behind the scenes. Any thoughts? Imagine that TIL was a super bad investment for them. But what other lemons?

disc. holding

If you don't think they are being transparent, why not call them and ask some questions ... I have always found they will answer a straight question with a straight answer .
If you look back on this thread you will see I have defended them a number of times .
How about you give them a call and post some answers , after all it is Your Money they are managing , if you are unsure about anything you deserve an answer .

[TJP]

If you don't think they are being transparent, why not call them and ask some questions ... I have always found they will answer a straight question with a straight answer .
If you look back on this thread you will see I have defended them a number of times .
How about you give them a call and post some answers , after all it is Your Money they are managing , if you are unsure about anything you deserve an answer .

Good call stoploss, and a fair one. I'm not bagging them at a personal level, only wondering how in such a bullish market, things are drifting so slowly.

[stoploss]

Good call stoploss, and a fair one. I'm not bagging them at a personal level, only wondering how in such a bullish market, things are drifting so slowly.
It's not a bullish market for small caps and they are a small cap fund manager ......

[stoploss]

Pie Funds first invested in Ecoya in April 2012 at 90 cents per share, alongside Milford Asset Management and before the company changed it's name to Trilogy. By Sept '15 or thereabouts Pie were extremely bullish about Trilogy's prospects and had started buying heavily from $1.00 per share or less. Despite having paid too much for their last holdings, I believe Pie Funds will have made good money from investing in this company.

Problem is the fund revals everyday , so sure they might still be up on TIL @ 2.30 but nowhere near as much as they were when they were $ 4.80 and the fund price reflects this ....

[Felonius]

Problem is the fund revals everyday , so sure they might still be up on TIL @ 2.30 but nowhere near as much as they were when they were $ 4.80 and the fund price reflects this ....

For sure, they have taken a hiding on this investment in the last 12 months. (And so have I).

[777]

Next Wednesday night if you can make it. If not then send them questions to answer.


DATE
Wednesday 14 June 2017
VENUE
Pie Funds Office, Level One, 1 Byron Avenue, Takapuna
ARRIVAL
6.00pm onwards - Drinks & nibbles served
PRESENATIONS & Q&A
6:30pm – 7:30pm

[h2so4]

Problem is the fund revals everyday , so sure they might still be up on TIL @ 2.30 but nowhere near as much as they were when they were $ 4.80 and the fund price reflects this ....

.....ang so as these funds fall in price they get forgotten about closed or buried or put into funds that are doing well. Meanwhile new funds are started and promoted along with the funds that are doing great. Heads you lose tails we keep on making money.

[777]

.....ang so as these funds fall in price they get forgotten about closed or buried or put into funds that are doing well. Meanwhile new funds are started and promoted along with the funds that are doing great. Heads you lose tails we keep on making money.

Why so bitter?

[bull....]

most of you seem to not relise the best place to have parked money the last while ( probably yrs ) has been low cost index funds:) active managers have really struggled to beat index funds and it is really showing up in the last year with there underperformance not just pie but most.

Anyway maybe pie should have invested in bitcoin :t_up: its hot at the moment

[h2so4]

Why so bitter?

Ha! Merrily merrily merrily merrily...

[h2so4]

......why so many funds?
Row row row your boat...

[777]

......why so many funds?
Row row row your boat...

Well those were two non sensical posts. Would you explain them for us. Nursery rhymes are so long in my past I have no recollection of their meaning.

[h2so4]

Well those were two non sensical posts. Would you explain them for us. Nursery rhymes are so long in my past I have no recollection of their meaning.

What do you want 777?

[percy]

I have checked my wife's and my own portfolios.
Since 31st March this year both portfolios are down 0.08%, ie less than 1%.
This is in some ways immaterial, as our dividends are increasing.
In NZ I am now taking cash dividends while in Aussie where possible I still take drp.
I would also point out that over the past 4 years, the value of our portfolios have increased substantially.

[jmsnz]

Any Pie Hole-ders (ha excuse the dad joke) noticing the pie performance recently? pretty crappy (across several funds). Pie aren't very transparent about what is going on behind the scenes. Any thoughts? Imagine that TIL was a super bad investment for them. But what other lemons?

disc. holding

Well, I have 4 different Pie holdings that collectively (according to Sharesight) been
Up 17.83% pa for the past 5 years
Up 10.91% pa for the past 2 years
Up 3.35% in the last year
Down 0.68% for the past 6 months
Down 0.89% for the past 3 months

My rag-tag collection on NZ shares have collectively (according to Sharesight) been
Up 18.62% pa for the past 5 years
Up 16.17% pa for the past 2 years
Up 8.69% in the last year
Up 6.81% for the past 6 months
Up 0.65% for the past 3 months

So, in theory at least I would have been better just with more money in my dartboard selections.

But on the other hand, it isn't quite that simple:
- Their performance collectively hasn't been quite as bad as some would suggest here though some funds are down significantly
- They seem to be one of, maybe the only, fund manager discussed here - why is that?
- In my dealings with them they have always been very approachable and direct with their answers
- I think that their marketing is very slick, which always makes me a bit nervous to be honest
- I can't see how their business model is truly sustainable. Their niche should always mean they are of a small size, and if they move away from that they are just another fund manager
- For me having money in funds like Pie is a risk management issue, I don't have the time or skill to deploy those funds elsewhere

Disc: Holder, and not disappointed with my long term return from them

[J9jcm50]

TJP,

Obviously funds go up and down. Some funds have taken a downward lately but mainly in Aussy and they mostly all have but they have recently recovered and long term look ok. PIE just explained it to me when I enquired with them. A very transparent company and they are very open and easy to communicate with. My friend has been with them for 4 years now and his results are excellent. I followed them for 2 years then got in and am happy with results to date. Money in banks here in NZ @3% and Aussy @ 2% don't exactly set the world alight and that's before tax . PIE results since inception and if you kept them in there are amongst the very best anywhere in the world. I think in 2016 were the 16th best fund in the world with thousands of funds so a slight downturn is ok especially as they are always sitting on large amounts of cash. If they need to get out of a stock they can as their positions are never that big just like their funds are maxed at $50M. So TJP who would you rather be with?

[stoploss]

Good post , but the fact remains that I think they held maybe 12% of TIL . That position was too big to get out of .They own more than 10% of KME.ax , do you think they could liquidate that in a hurry if there was a profit warning for instance ? Not sure where you get the 50mio figure from .... they have over 600 mio across Funds , some are way bigger than 50 .....,

[J9jcm50]

What fees does brent sheather charge and does he invest your hard earned in funds which take fees as well?

Don't worry about the fees if the funds return the $$$. Will always be better than the bank. Often people go for the smallest fees in the kiwsaver providers but they are the worst performers. Stars need to be paid. Happy with them.

[stoploss]

TJP,

Obviously funds go up and down. Some funds have taken a downward lately but mainly in Aussy and they mostly all have but they have recently recovered and long term look ok. PIE just explained it to me when I enquired with them. A very transparent company and they are very open and easy to communicate with. My friend has been with them for 4 years now and his results are excellent. I followed them for 2 years then got in and am happy with results to date. Money in banks here in NZ @3% and Aussy @ 2% don't exactly set the world alight and that's before tax . PIE results since inception and if you kept them in there are amongst the very best anywhere in the world. I think in 2016 were the 16th best fund in the world with thousands of funds so a slight downturn is ok especially as they are always sitting on large amounts of cash. If they need to get out of a stock they can as their positions are never that big just like their funds are maxed at $50M. So TJP who would you rather be with?

From the Pie July Fact sheets - Fund sizes
Growth $ 72.6 mio
Growth 2 $ 128.3 Mio
Dividend $ 87 mio
Emerging $ 86 mio
Global $ 73.5 mio
UK & Eur $ 75.9
Cash plus $ 12.4 mio

So j9jcm50 it would seem the 50 mio max is not correct ....

[777]

From the Pie July Fact sheets - Fund sizes
Growth $ 72.6 mio
Growth 2 $ 128.3 Mio
Dividend $ 87 mio
Emerging $ 86 mio
Global $ 73.5 mio
UK & Eur $ 75.9
Cash plus $ 12.4 mio

So j9jcm50 it would seem the 50 mio max is not correct ....

They stop accepting money into the funds at 50m in general. They are allowed to grow though. (smilie face).

[stoploss]

Growth 2 and Dividend are still open to funds along with Global and Europe ,....

[J9jcm50]

Yes I stand corrected

[TFA]

PIE multi strategy fund being launched. They can short markets etc. These guys Australasian funds have done very well. International and UK/euro have done ok but underperformed against various benchmarks to date, so a bit unproven in other markets. At this stage therefore unsure about supporting this one, but could be a good time to be launching a fund of this type

[1leon]

Pie was founded on small caps expertise. The latest creation seems to extend to every type of investment known to man viz included but not limited to •Equities long or short•Fixed interest•Cash – multi-currency•Unlisted investments•Property•Derivatives such as equity options, futures, ETF’s and CFD’s. Seems a rather bold claim to have that expertise.

[Entrep]

PIE multi strategy fund being launched. They can short markets etc. These guys Australasian funds have done very well. International and UK/euro have done ok but underperformed against various benchmarks to date, so a bit unproven in other markets. At this stage therefore unsure about supporting this one, but could be a good time to be launching a fund of this type

I have some term deposits coming up that I was going to put into p2p lending, however that is proving time consuming in itself. I have looked at Pie a lot in the past but now could be the time to pull the trigger. Unsure about this latest fund but might see if they have others open.

[stoploss]

I have some term deposits coming up that I was going to put into p2p lending, however that is proving time consuming in itself. I have looked at Pie a lot in the past but now could be the time to pull the trigger. Unsure about this latest fund but might see if they have others open.

Cash,Global,UK & Europe are still open plus the new fund . If you want to go in the others just let them know and they will put you on a wait list .

[bull....]

brave shorting in this market , but guess from all the bears that used to be on black monday thread there be plenty of takers

[Thor]

These guys Australasian funds have done very well.

While their funds have done quite well in the past, recent (last 3 years) performance for most of their funds is poor. Their clients and funds under management (FUM) have grown significantly over the last few years, on the back of good prior performance. Every year they seem to open a new fund with a slight tilt, but its just a disguise to increased their FUM while still keeping the fund sizes small enough to retain their "boutique" look. They even stated during a recent roadshow their goal is 1 billion FUM.

I am a PIE client, however I am very aware of the very high risks of their investments. Highly concentrated investments in 10-15 stocks, most of which are highly illiquid. During the next bear market their funds will get crushed, unable to sell their huge holdings in companies with no liquidity. You only need to look at their TIL investment as one example.

Disc: PIE Funds client, but considering selling soon.

[777]

While their funds have done quite well in the past, recent (last 3 years) performance for most of their funds is poor. Their clients and funds under management (FUM) have grown significantly over the last few years, on the back of good prior performance. Every year they seem to open a new fund with a slight tilt, but its just a disguise to increased their FUM while still keeping the fund sizes small enough to retain their "boutique" look. They even stated during a recent roadshow their goal is 1 billion FUM.

I am a PIE client, however I am very aware of the very high risks of their investments. Highly concentrated investments in 10-15 stocks, most of which are highly illiquid. During the next bear market their funds will get crushed, unable to sell their huge holdings in companies with no liquidity. You only need to look at their TIL investment as one example.

Disc: PIE Funds client, but considering selling soon.

They would only need to sell if clients wanted their money back. Bailing after the turn in the market is stupidity.

[Entrep]

Thanks Stoploss

To Thor and 777, aren't these all reasons why the new fund might be a good option (with the ability to go short)?

[Thor]

To Thor and 777, aren't these all reasons why the new fund might be a good option (with the ability to go short)?

Maybe, but as 1leon said, their entire history has been small cap long investors. So with no history (and limited experience?) the new strategy may not work out as planned - only time will tell.

[Fisherking]

I have some term deposits coming up that I was going to put into p2p lending, however that is proving time consuming in itself. I have looked at Pie a lot in the past but now could be the time to pull the trigger. Unsure about this latest fund but might see if they have others open.

P2P is good diversification but the return is not that great. I'm at ~15% but this is gross of tax. I'm on a similar return TY from money in Pie Funds but the return is tax paid so ~50% higher.
Mixed results from PF this year, last year was stronger, however there are a few months to go.

[Snow Leopard]

They would only need to sell if clients wanted their money back. Bailing after the turn in the market is stupidity.

Well, bailing before the market turns is also 'stupidity', if not more so.

I believe Peter Lynch actually said that many people who invested in the funds he managed lost money despite his out-performance of the market precisely because they gave him their money when the market was hot and took it back when it was down.

[Lewylewylewy]

Well, bailing before the market turns is also 'stupidity', if not more so.

I believe Peter Lynch actually said that many people who invested in the funds he managed lost money despite his out-performance of the market precisely because they gave him their money when the market was hot and took it back when it was down.

I've made this mistake, when starting out. New I think if I'm not riding it out, I'll profit take when I think my stock is over valued. Still learning here.

[Sideshow Bob]

While their funds have done quite well in the past, recent (last 3 years) performance for most of their funds is poor. Their clients and funds under management (FUM) have grown significantly over the last few years, on the back of good prior performance. Every year they seem to open a new fund with a slight tilt, but its just a disguise to increased their FUM while still keeping the fund sizes small enough to retain their "boutique" look. They even stated during a recent roadshow their goal is 1 billion FUM.

I am a PIE client, however I am very aware of the very high risks of their investments. Highly concentrated investments in 10-15 stocks, most of which are highly illiquid. During the next bear market their funds will get crushed, unable to sell their huge holdings in companies with no liquidity. You only need to look at their TIL investment as one example.

Disc: PIE Funds client, but considering selling soon.

I sold out recently, for similar reasons. Needed the funds elsewhere but first choice of what to go.

Was in the global fund since inception, and while the return was OK, was nothing to match the marketing spin. Went to one of their presentations and was distinctly unimpressed with their presentations and didn't instill me with confidence. Of course they can't cover the globe, but to invest in a fund to invest in other funds left me a little uninspired.

[Dust]

I sold out recently, for similar reasons. Needed the funds elsewhere but first choice of what to go.

Was in the global fund since inception, and while the return was OK, was nothing to match the marketing spin. Went to one of their presentations and was distinctly unimpressed with their presentations and didn't instill me with confidence. Of course they can't cover the globe, but to invest in a fund to invest in other funds left me a little uninspired.

What percentage of their global fund are invested into external fund managers roughly? For PIE fund's small AUM I would understand the use of external funds to gain the global exposure.

[Schrodinger]

Why pick Pie over Superlife? Return for a mix of ETF's look similar between both. 2 day withdrawl liquidity v 1 month? I have assessed this recently.

Not convinced they can outperform the market in a meaningful way over 10 years to justify risk v reward.

As mentioned above by SBob the liquidity risk of their smaller Mcap holdings will be exposed in a downturn when investors pull funds from stocks +Pie due to their requirement to meet commitments. Hanging on a knife edge for 20 working day days (i.e. 1 month) if PIE became insolvent (and you find out later while waiting) might justify a 5%+ out performance premium over Superlife ETF's.

Might be worth it if they added a portfolio insurance product that guarantees withdrawl payouts (first rank priority over IRD etc).

[bull....]

Why pick Pie over Superlife? Return for a mix of ETF's look similar between both. 2 day withdrawl liquidity v 1 month? I have assessed this recently.

Not convinced they can outperform the market in a meaningful way over 10 years to justify risk v reward.

As mentioned above by SBob the liquidity risk of their smaller Mcap holdings will be exposed in a downturn when investors pull funds from stocks +Pie due to their requirement to meet commitments. Hanging on a knife edge for 20 working day days (i.e. 1 month) if PIE became insolvent (and you find out later while waiting) might justify a 5%+ out performance premium over Superlife ETF's.

Might be worth it if they added a portfolio insurance product that guarantees withdrawl payouts (first rank priority over IRD etc).

superlife returns look much better in the last yr as well , better than most fund managers in nz at a quick glance

https://superlife.co.nz/investments/investment-returns-after-tax

[PLYNCH]

Not so good the Geminio fund.

[Entrep]

Thanks for the Superlife links I will check them out

[Toulouse - Luzern]

[QUOTE=Schrodinger;690315]Why pick Pie over Superlife? Return for a mix of ETF's look similar between both.

2 day withdrawal liquidity v 1 month? I have assessed this recently.

I am not convinced they can outperform the market in a meaningful way over 10 years to justify risk v reward.


I too have been considering this fund...

Agreed, the various points by posters about outperfomance, and fees and withdrawal issues and timing are factors to consider ...

The investment statement has the broadest investment options.

I understand the view that diversification of energy at PF into many areas may impact results.

Pie track record in the new areas is unknown and a learning curve is possible.

That said fluid situations may mean greater opportunities and the world markets are cuurently impacted by change and uncertainty:

As examples
NZ new govt
AU High Court - MPs etc being forced to resign
Japan Election
Germany Election
Spain Catalan
Other elections in Eurozone
UK & Euro - Brexit
US Unpredictable

I will attempt to post later my Excel analysis (E&OE and DYOR caveats) of some Pie Funds recent performance.
Source PF newsletter and Morningstar current data.

[Toulouse - Luzern]

92619261

Observations
1 High amounts of cash for equity funds
2 Some funds underperformance over many months


Interested in comments

[Joshuatree]

How many funds are there?
Ive got the below and know the best returns were in the first years not sure what return has been in last 1 and 2 years.

Pie Australasian Emerging fund up 206% since May13 = 47% av year
Pie australasian divi fund up 76% since july 2013=17.55 av year
Pie Global smaller cos up 47% since sep 2013=12% av year

[Fred114]

Agree with many of the recent sentiments in this post, attempting to find their focus as fund managers. Attracted at the beginning to risk of small caps, but performance has lagged in recent years, for risk and comparable fee. Confirm that they are open to discuss. I dislike their exuberant marketing, but downed the chocs as a tempter for their latest open fund that arrived by courier last month. Will probably decline the offer to enter the new fund.....

Figures I have from sharesight.....



1 mth
6 mth
1 yr
2 yr


Growth fund
1%
3.87%
-15%
1.39%


Dividend
1.8%
7.23
2.48
17


Small companies
3.89
7.73
18.3
11.26


Emerging
7.71
11.7
3.27
18.4


Growth 2
3.03
15.39
7.11
19.24



Comments welcome.......

[Toulouse - Luzern]

Thanks JT and Fred114 for your comments.

From mid September to the present I note that all the PF funds I analysed have increased steadily to reach all time highs.

This may be due in part to the election process and falling NZ $.
If so thank you Winston, Miss Adern and Grant.
(PF hedging policy is unknown to me)

In my previous post I showed September one month % gains.

Looking at the results for October month to date - from 30 September 2017 valuations to 26 October 2017 (25 October for Global) gives these % increases.

(E&OE)

AU Dividend 1.83%
Global 3.74%
AU Growth 2 2.28%
UK Euro 3.95%

In a few days PF will update these with the official results.

[bull....]

Name
Date
6 Month
1 Year
3 Year
5 Year
10 Year


Milford NZ Equities Wholesale Fund
30-09-17
13.59
13.74
18.69
20.61



Harbour Australasian Equity
30-09-17
13.32
15.93
15.59
17.76



Asteron Superplan 2000 Trans Tasman Fund
30-09-17
12.91
11.53
16.68
17.31
7.46


Harbour Australasian Equity Focus Fund
30-09-17
12.7
21.12
15.3




Asteron Superplan Trans Tasman Fund
30-09-17
12.56
10.79
15.93
16.57
6.74


Castle Point Ranger Fund
30-09-17
11.94
14.45
10.46




Pie Growth 2 Fund
30-09-17
11.63
5.39





Forte Equity Trust
30-09-17
11.23
31.03
11.94




OneAnswer KiwiSaver-Australasian Share
30-09-17
9.38
6.33
12.61
15.78
7.39


Mint Australia NZ Active Equity
30-09-17
9.01
9.7
14.66
18.07
10.32


Nikko AM Concentrated Equity
30-09-17
8.92
14.18
17.65
16.87
9.61


BT PS Australasian Diversified Share
30-09-17
8.86
7.78
13.25
16.52



Pie Australasian Emerging Companies
30-09-17
7.96
1.65
16




Pie Australasian Dividend
30-09-17
7.9
1.33
10.42
16.28



Milford Trans-Tasman
30-09-17
7.39
13.87
12.28
14.03



Booster KiwiSaver Socially Rsp Inv Gr
30-09-17
5.5
11.05
9.65
9.52



AMP ARS-NZ & Australian (Value)
30-09-17
5.09
0.38
10.21
14.68



OneAnswer SAC Equity Selection
30-09-17
4.6
1.03
7.69
12.21
5.51


AMP Prem PSS OnePath NZ Shares
30-09-17
4.59
0.99
7.8
12.67
6.45


AMP Prem PUT OnePath NZ Shares
30-09-17
4.44
0.72
7.68
12.65
6.32




This snapshot from https://www.morningstar.com.au/Tools/NewFundScreener ranked in 6mth performance for australasia equity funds based from nz.
quite a difference in some funds from 6mths to 1yr

[Fred114]

The chart shows that exceptional returns from the exposure to risk that Pie Funds adheres to is under question......

[Sideshow Bob]

Digression - One thing that does highlight is how average AMP is. While not the same funds, I was in their KiwiSaver for too long. While gave them the benefit of the doubt for a while, was pretty woeful in the end.

[stoploss]

PIE Funds have finally branched out into Kiwisaver under the Juno brand , official start date 1 August.
http://investmentnews.co.nz/

Anyone interested can go here for further info upon launch .

https://www.junokiwisaver.co.nz/

DISC: Invested in their funds , no other interest.

[bull....]

PIE Funds have finally branched out into Kiwisaver under the Juno brand , official start date 1 August.
http://investmentnews.co.nz/

Anyone interested can go here for further info upon launch .

https://www.junokiwisaver.co.nz/

DISC: Invested in their funds , no other interest.

branching out into everything these days.

fees are very much weighted to high fees for less money , low fees for lots of money at a quick glance also will the kiwisaver funds be concentrated funds? and similar to there other funds which spread the same stock over a few funds? small cap kiwisaver?

https://www.goodreturns.co.nz/article/976506835/pie-funds-joins-kiwisaver-market.html