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elZorro
22-08-2014, 08:06 AM
The title of this thread is a very important question - one which journalists have been too scared to ask of John Key.

Why is it so important? Because Crosby-Textor are neo-liberal campaign strategists based in Australia, and their pervasive techniques have been well described in Nicky Hager's earlier work, "The Hollow Men".

Helpfully, Mr. Hager's book contains an index, so pages 157-167 contain the techniques from the 2004 period, when National certainly used them heavily. These ideas have not changed much by the look of it.

I think it's likely that the two-pronged strategy of promoting National as an easy-going government not going too far into gutter politics, while passing some of the damaging internal information of government onto right-wing bloggers, came from Crosby-Textor. Just the idea (originally from the USA), and then some people in the top National circle had to implement it. Looks like they did this with a passion.

Meanwhile, the core work that Crosby-Textor would have given John Key's team, would be to take those nagging doubts that many of us have about, say, Labour and the Greens, amplify them so they are almost ridiculous, and then repeat them on every occasion until they become "real".

By belittling and challenging every step the opposition took using the social and press media, the National Govt have been able to implement some neo-liberal agendas like selling off state assets, borrowing heavily on behalf of the state, while ensuring high-wealth individuals do better than average, and that inequality tends to increase. They have reinforced themselves with positive messages, but all the while the Statistics office and Treasury have recorded (but not generally exposed) some damaging-looking metrics.

This has worked for National, up until now.

It must have worked, because many people think that Labour put us in a hole (very untrue), that National has achieved greatness in pulling us out of the GFC so quickly (untrue), that we are now a rock-star economy (untrue).

The "Dirty Politics" book was a rushed affair, not as many pages. I'm sure Nicky Hager would have liked to add more background research into it. But I think that in the interests of democracy, he needed to get the book out before the election.

It details some of the scurrilous activities of top National identities and bloggers. So far john key has emerged relatively unscathed. But since Crosby-Textor have made frequent visits to NZ in the past, and their advice is generally given verbally, there's a good chance that John Key would have been privy to these discussions. They could well have been called on in the aftermath of the "Dirty Politics" book, for advice.

I want some member of the press to stand up for the rest of us, and ask the simple question.

Have the National Party used Crosby-Textor in this election campaign?

Joshuatree
22-08-2014, 08:22 AM
Great thread elzorro; . Chances are this will be picked up anyway or you could flick it thru to John Campbell for example he wouldn't hold it back. Looks like Mr Smarmyte (Key)is digging a deeper hole for himself as well.

Harvey Specter
22-08-2014, 08:55 AM
The "Dirty Politics" book was a rushed affair, not as many pages. I'm sure Nicky Hager would have liked to add more background research into it. But I think that in the interests of democracy, he needed to get the book out before the election.
in the interest of democracy or the interest of selling as many copies as possible?

It would have been a much better book if researched properly but instead it appears to rely solely on the emails with no external research. Whale Oils ability to be crass and repugnant is only matched by his ability to talk absolute sh!t.

craic
22-08-2014, 09:26 AM
The bottom line is that the public are turned off by the crap that is going on and hacking into emails will always be a turn off. I mix with a lot of people, mostly middle or older age and they have little or no interest in what is going on between Hager , Whaleoil and Dotcom - it is the sort of rubbish that accompanies elections exacerbated by the inclusion of fat European criminals who think they have enough money to buy the world. If you really want to know about Labours promise to extend free health to young and old, Read a book "Honour a Physician" if you can find a copy. I can't remember the Author but it was many years ago and relates to the introduction of National Health in the UK. Free medicine is the hypochondriacs dream and unfortunately there are many elderly hypochondriacs - I know several - their main topic of conversation is their bodily functioning.

artemis
22-08-2014, 09:42 AM
..... Free medicine is the hypochondriacs dream and unfortunately there are many elderly hypochondriacs - I know several - their main topic of conversation is their bodily functioning.

I know some too, very sad lives. Some are basically lonely, looking for someone - anyone - to talk to. And before anyone weighs in with - where is the family etc -just because people are old does not mean they are nice or treated their family well.

Agree that when the policy was announced my first thought was 'floodgates'. There are already parts of the country which have too few doctors. Many but not all areas with shortages are rural. Couple
of years ago there as a lot of media overage about people in the urban areas of Kapiti and Hutt Valley unable to find a remotely local GP as practices were full up. BTW, Kapiti has a large older population. Just sayin'.

Banksie
22-08-2014, 10:14 AM
The bottom line is that the public are turned off by the crap that is going on and hacking into emails will always be a turn off. I mix with a lot of people, mostly middle or older age and they have little or no interest in what is going on between Hager , Whaleoil and Dotcom - it is the sort of rubbish that accompanies elections exacerbated by the inclusion of fat European criminals who think they have enough money to buy the world.

My unscientific, quick pub survey got similar results. The older voters haven't really been following the story and don't care, the "thinking" left are all over it and the few people I know that actively don't vote cited it as just "one more reason not to vote".

(Sorry my pub doesn't carry many/any Nat supporters, so I couldn't canvas them :))

craic
22-08-2014, 10:15 AM
I know some too, very sad lives. Some are basically lonely, looking for someone - anyone - to talk to. And before anyone weighs in with - where is the family etc -just because people are old does not mean they are nice or treated their family well.

Agree that when the policy was announced my first thought was 'floodgates'. There are already parts of the country which have too few doctors. Many but not all areas with shortages are rural. Couple
of years ago there as a lot of media overage about people in the urban areas of Kapiti and Hutt Valley unable to find a remotely local GP as practices were full up. BTW, Kapiti has a large older population. Just sayin'.
I was coming from the same angle about the elderly and the lonely. I had a lot of dealing with the elderly, mostly females ,who had a desperate need to talk to someone. One elderly lady waited at her gate each evening to chat to the paperboy. Several phoned a probation officer on a daily basis just to chat about anything end everything. It may be necessary to have a triage? system like my current doctors practice where people who come in off the street are interviewed by a nurse in the first instance. Years ago, many would shoplift small items, quite unconciously, to gain attention, hence my involvement but that process died with police diversion years ago. Money spent on the social health of the elderly would be much better than on free doctors visits. The lucky ones are the ones that become involved with groups like the RSA and other clubs.

slimwin
22-08-2014, 01:21 PM
Who talks politics in the pub anyway.

GTM 3442
22-08-2014, 02:31 PM
. . . criminals who think they have enough money to buy the world.. . .

Oh, you mean the banks?

We will pay $x billion with no admission of culpability, and you will not proceed with the charges against us.

Sgt Pepper
22-08-2014, 04:52 PM
I was coming from the same angle about the elderly and the lonely. I had a lot of dealing with the elderly, mostly females ,who had a desperate need to talk to someone. One elderly lady waited at her gate each evening to chat to the paperboy. Several phoned a probation officer on a daily basis just to chat about anything end everything. It may be necessary to have a triage? system like my current doctors practice where people who come in off the street are interviewed by a nurse in the first instance. Years ago, many would shoplift small items, quite unconciously, to gain attention, hence my involvement but that process died with police diversion years ago. Money spent on the social health of the elderly would be much better than on free doctors visits. The lucky ones are the ones that become involved with groups like the RSA and other clubs.

Craic
I have been delivering meals on wheels for several years, and I am sure for many of the elderly I am probably the only person they have spoken to that day. Its very sad.

elZorro
22-08-2014, 07:07 PM
Cheer up you guys, watch social media at work on National's ad. These words are also true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37vxczp5hwY

Major von Tempsky
23-08-2014, 11:11 AM
The strange thing is that El Zorro allegedly believes in democracy, we will have the election, National will win and suddenly he won't believe in democracy, he won't accept the result and he will display all the traits of a BAD LOSER.
Sad.

Banksie
23-08-2014, 11:59 AM
The strange thing is that El Zorro allegedly believes in democracy, we will have the election, National will win and suddenly he won't believe in democracy, he won't accept the result and he will display all the traits of a BAD LOSER.
Sad.

Has this happened previously with El Zorro? Or is this just an assumption you are make MVT?

craic
23-08-2014, 02:01 PM
Read post number 19 and a couple later on the "If National Wins " thread. You might get your answer there.
Has this happened previously with El Zorro? Or is this just an assumption you are make MVT?

Banksie
23-08-2014, 04:00 PM
Read post number 19 and a couple later on the "If National Wins " thread. You might get your answer there.

Well not exactly a tantrum...but yeah they will be winners and losers, and I hope both the winners and the losers will be mature about it.

Edit: Reading the early posts I do wish MVT would debate the issues like he used too, rather than just popping in and sniping off a negative post. But I guess he has been round this block before and is feeling a little jaded.

elZorro
23-08-2014, 04:23 PM
Well not exactly a tantrum...but yeah they will be winners and losers, and I hope both the winners and the losers will be mature about it.

Edit: Reading the early posts I do wish MVT would debate the issues like he used too, rather than just popping in and sniping off a negative post. But I guess he has been round this block before and is feeling a little jaded.

Yes, I'm sure MVT has a lot of experience in politics, from the gist of some of his posts. But I have been able to pull him up on one or two comments in the past. Anyway, a lot of what I said in post #17 came to pass. Manufacturing jobs kept dropping, nothing much of note changed for the positive. National were lucky to see a big dairy cheque while the NZ$ was high.

I've been out helping canvass, a mix of comments, some greenies out there looking to vote strategically, some Labour, and of course a few National households. And this was in a relatively tidy street.

craic
23-08-2014, 04:24 PM
problem is trying to know what to debate. Both major parties will offer rewards/bribes to electors to support them and only so much will be delivered. All sorts of excuses are offered like "Well, we didn't realise the problem until we opened the books" "we hope to make a start on that in the next term when we sort out this/that problem" There is nothing on the block at present that excite me one way or another. As a pensioner, I certainly don't need any more than I am getting now - as a sometimes customer of the health system I am quite happy with their performance - as a taxpayer, a bit more or less wouldn't bother me. As to the minor parties, they are effectively absorbed into the left or right in due course. I do expect that when the election is over and the dust settles, one large interloper will be removed from the site quickly by whichever side wins, probably with the collusion of the opposition.

elZorro
24-08-2014, 12:40 PM
Lynton Crosby tried suing Nicky Hager over a radio interview in 2008. Here's what happened, Hager won.

http://www.nickyhager.info/crosby-v-hager-defamation-proceedings-as-political-weapon/

What's important to note is that John Key said he wouldn't use the same advisers Brash used. But he did. He was furious that someone leaked this information. Now if you look on google to see if National are using Crosby-Textor in more recent years, there is no official confirmation. That's because an admission of that kind would be embarrassing.

slimwin
24-08-2014, 02:37 PM
Thought you'd be happy if he used them. Look where Brash is now.

Sgt Pepper
24-08-2014, 02:55 PM
The strange thing is that El Zorro allegedly believes in democracy, we will have the election, National will win and suddenly he won't believe in democracy, he won't accept the result and he will display all the traits of a BAD LOSER.
Sad.

MVT
Should the left manage to cobble together a government I suspect I know who will be the sore loser, it wont be EZ! Although the Waitemata Trust may want its money back.

craic
24-08-2014, 03:38 PM
Todays elevation of Dot Com To the level of NZ's super hero at the meeting up north today makes me sick - and I have a strong stomach. His version of his criminal history was a joke but some will believe it. If they manage to get enough votes to cobble together a couple of seats and offer their support to Labour in a Balance-of-power situation, I will be hiding up in the scrub for the next three or four years or however long it takes. If he came to an agreement with National, I would exercise my right to UK citizenship within days. But I think JK's housing policy will drag back a few stray voters.

fungus pudding
24-08-2014, 04:30 PM
Todays elevation of Dot Com To the level of NZ's super hero at the meeting up north today makes me sick - and I have a strong stomach. His version of his criminal history was a joke but some will believe it. If they manage to get enough votes to cobble together a couple of seats and offer their support to Labour in a Balance-of-power situation, I will be hiding up in the scrub for the next three or four years or however long it takes. If he came to an agreement with National, I would exercise my right to UK citizenship within days. But I think JK's housing policy will drag back a few stray voters.

You should hear Laila Harre in full flight. That would make you sick. Just nonsense promises to a gullible audience. JK's housing policy is nonsense too. I expect better from National.

Banksie
24-08-2014, 04:44 PM
If they manage to get enough votes to cobble together a couple of seats and offer their support to Labour in a Balance-of-power situation, I will be hiding up in the scrub for the next three or four years or however long it takes. If he came to an agreement with National, I would exercise my right to UK citizenship within days.

I actually think they might just end up with enough votes to get someone in parliament - because I expect they are scooping up quite a few voters who wouldn't have otherwise bothered.

I don't agree with Dotcom and the way he has bought himself a political party, but at the end of the day I am not sure they will have much influence. What is the best the can hope for? A re-jig of the digital bill of rights? cheaper internet for everyone?

Basically they can promise what they want, cos they really don't have a hope of getting it passed.

Don't go bush craic, your mates will miss the firewood ;).

fungus pudding
24-08-2014, 05:26 PM
I actually think they might just end up with enough votes to get someone in parliament - because I expect they are scooping up quite a few voters who wouldn't have otherwise bothered.

I don't agree with Dotcom and the way he has bought himself a political party, but at the end of the day I am not sure they will have much influence. What is the best the can hope for? A re-jig of the digital bill of rights? cheaper internet for everyone?

Basically they can promise what they want, cos they really don't have a hope of getting it passed.

Don't go bush craic, your mates will miss the firewood ;).


As long as Harawira wins Te-Tai-Tokarau Internet/Mana will get certainly more than 2 in. Possibly a lot more. Minto, Beyers, Harre, Sykes, Harawira of course.

A vote for Labour or the Greens is a vote for this lot. I don't want that on my conscience.

Joshuatree
24-08-2014, 07:26 PM
Sounds a little disingenuous fp, If you're a national supporter i can understand it ; otherwise a bit nonsensical imo; no offence intended . Disclose ; Labour/Greens supporter.

Banksie
25-08-2014, 12:09 AM
A vote for Labour or the Greens is a vote for this lot. I don't want that on my conscience.
Here is kiwiblogs analysis of the voting:


So here’s how the voting will work. Assume Hone will win Te Tai Tokerau

Below 0.4% – seat is an overhang
0.4 – 1.1% – 1 MP – Hone Harawira
1.2% – 1.9% – Internet Party leader gets in [Laila Harre]
2.0% to 2.7% – Annette Sykes gets in
2.8% – 3.5% – John Minto gets in
3.6% + – a second Internet Party MP [Chris Yong]

i must admit I don't quite get it, how much damage do you think this bunch can do if they get into a ruling coalition?

elZorro
25-08-2014, 06:05 AM
To be fair, I don't have much background research on the top four, just some protest type old images in my head, but Laila Harre seemed perfectly sensible when she was an MP, most of the time, and was in demand for TV spots. The youth vote could put the top 2 or 3 in. It sounds like they would not form part of a formal coalition with Labour, but they could be called on to help with confidence and supply votes in the house.
(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10353381/Labour-cool-on-Internet-Mana-deal)
NZResources' Dene Mackenzie admits that the Dirty Politics questions will probably follow National to the election date. Looking forward to the debate on Thursday.


25/8/2014 — Economics, Politics and Government
Thursday challenge for both Key and Cunliffe
By Dene Mackenzie
Prime Minister John Key must be hoping when he campaigns in Auckland today that the horrors of the last 12 days have been put behind him and the National Party.
Answering questions after launching the party's election campaign in Manukau's Vodafone Events Centre yesterday, Key refused to answer questions regarding the future of Justice Minister Judith Collins, telling reporters “we have moved on from that.”
Unfortunately for Key, many people have not moved on from the allegations contained in investigative journalist Nicky Hager's book Dirty Politics in which it was alleged Ms Collins expedited official information requests for right-wing blogger Cameron Slater.
It seems unlikely media trailing after the Prime Minister will stop asking questions about Ms Collins, and other allegations contained in the book including those involving National Party staff member Jason Ede, before the September 20 election.
Key is conducting a campaign by photo opportunities which involves one 15-minute to 20-minute media stand-up a day. The one time slot gives him, and his staff, no time to spin the message into policy.
The first debate between Key and Labour leader David Cunliffe is scheduled at 7 pm on Thursday on TV One. Both leaders need to be completely focused on the debate.
John Key destroyed former prime minister Helen Clark in 2008 and got the best of former Labour leader Phil Goff with one devastating line “show us the money” during a 2011 debate.
With National, and Key, showing some slippage in support in a recent poll, both men know they need to be at their best on Thursday as they present to voters.
Labour support continued to slide in a poll last week, despite the furore about Hager's book. However, Cunliffe showed an improvement in the poll for preferred prime minister and he will be seeking to improve again on Thursday.
Also, both men have refused to take part in a debate with small parties, attracting some criticism but showing they intend to be the ones deciding the make-up of the next government.
Key warned supporters yesterday there was still a chance, despite being low in the polls, that Labour could cobble together a government with the Greens, Internet Mana and others because that was how the maths might work.
With 26 days to go to the election, Messrs Key and Cunliffe both need to start the week strongly and continue building momentum towards the election.
*Dene Mackenzie is political editor of the Otago Daily Times.

craic
25-08-2014, 07:46 AM
I am still confident of a win for the right but I believe that the results for the minors might be a surprise. I think NZ First will miss out with quite a bit of their support going to the Conservatives and the Conservatives will get a higher than predicted vote. They have two or three very high profile candidate including the leader of the Criminal Bar Assn.? and a prominent scientist and Garth McVicar will bring quite a bit to the Table - I personally know several police personell who will be giving their support and that will spread through to many who are frustrated with the "soft" criminal system but all that probably wont get them over the 5% threshold. Inyernet/Mana will get quite q few but many of the rabid "F###k John Key" will not get out of bed or will spoil their votes by writing their mantra on the form. Labour seems to be losing ground to the Greens.The Maori Party took a hit with the resignation of Peter Sharples and I haven't seen a lot of sparks fly from his replacement. I look forward to opening a bottle of rum on the night, about 5PM and Win, lose or draw I wont be saving much, if any for Christmas.

fungus pudding
25-08-2014, 07:58 AM
I am still confident of a win for the right but I believe that the results for the minors might be a surprise. I think NZ First will miss out with quite a bit of their support going to the Conservatives and the Conservatives will get a higher than predicted vote. They have two or three very high profile candidate including the leader of the Criminal Bar Assn.? and a prominent scientist and Garth McVicar will bring quite a bit to the Table - I personally know several police personell who will be giving their support and that will spread through to many who are frustrated with the "soft" criminal system but all that probably wont get them over the 5% threshold.

National still have the option of promoting Conservatives/Rankin in Epsom. they'll be watching the polling closely. That would bury Winston First and Act of course, but it might be the best outcome possible, and would certainly boost the numbers. The ridiculous binding referendum bottom line would need to be watered down.

Joshuatree
25-08-2014, 08:16 AM
elZorro i tried to email TV3 re your question using "contact us" but an error kept coming up so don't know if it was sent or not..

craic
25-08-2014, 08:47 AM
The referendum factor would have to be similar to the very effective Swiss System. The current silly rules that anyone can force a referendum if they can get X number of signatures on paper could never work. As far as I know, the Swiss government simply put two or three contentious issues up to the public every few months and the voters - those who can be bothered - go to a permanent polling place, like their local post office and vote. This could easily develop into a more effective system of voting at elections as a bonus.Just as an aside. We hear of tin-pot politicians from here there and everywhere all the time - Has anyone ever heard of the Swiss Prime Minister or any of his leading minister, without having to look it up?
National still have the option of promoting Conservatives/Rankin in Epsom. they'll be watching the polling closely. That would bury Winston First and Act of course, but it might be the best outcome possible, and would certainly boost the numbers. The ridiculous binding referendum bottom line would need to be watered down.

Banksie
25-08-2014, 09:22 AM
The referendum factor would have to be similar to the very effective Swiss System. The current silly rules that anyone can force a referendum if they can get X number of signatures on paper could never work. As far as I know, the Swiss government simply put two or three contentious issues up to the public every few months and the voters - those who can be bothered - go to a permanent polling place, like their local post office and vote. This could easily develop into a more effective system of voting at elections as a bonus.Just as an aside. We hear of tin-pot politicians from here there and everywhere all the time - Has anyone ever heard of the Swiss Prime Minister or any of his leading minister, without having to look it up?

The swiss can initiate referendums for constitutional amendments. In 2009 they initiated a referendum, and were successful, in banning the construction of minarets. (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_popular_initiative_%22against_the_construc tion_of_minarets%22)). This highlights one of the dangers of q binding referendum, the majority can impinge on the rights of minorities.

Did you know: Switzerland only introduced universal suffrage at the federal level in 1971, and in 1991, following a decision by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, Appenzell Innerrhoden became the last Swiss canton to grant women the vote on local issues.

craic
25-08-2014, 10:09 AM
The majority can impinge on the rites of the minority? Isn't that what elections are for and what they do? As to the erection of minaretes, go to any muslim country and see what you can do as a Christian or a Jew. You will be surprised. My point is that the Swiss are a very successful as an economy and in most ways withou the circus of politicians who parade in front of the world. Putting minarets up in Switzerland would be like drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa
The swiss can initiate referendums for constitutional amendments. In 2009 they initiated a referendum, and were successful, in banning the construction of minarets. (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_popular_initiative_%22against_the_construc tion_of_minarets%22)). This highlights one of the dangers of q binding referendum, the majority can impinge on the rights of minorities.

Did you know: Switzerland only introduced universal suffrage at the federal level in 1971, and in 1991, following a decision by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, Appenzell Innerrhoden became the last Swiss canton to grant women the vote on local issues.

elZorro
25-08-2014, 03:09 PM
elZorro i tried to email TV3 re your question using "contact us" but an error kept coming up so don't know if it was sent or not..

Thanks for that Joshuatree, have you tried googling National & Crosby Textor? It comes up with this thread on page one, did it the day after I started the thread. But maybe I should be more proactive.

Sgt Pepper
25-08-2014, 03:37 PM
The majority can impinge on the rites of the minority? Isn't that what elections are for and what they do? As to the erection of minaretes, go to any muslim country and see what you can do as a Christian or a Jew. You will be surprised. My point is that the Swiss are a very successful as an economy and in most ways withou the circus of politicians who parade in front of the world. Putting minarets up in Switzerland would be like drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa

Craic
Another interesting fact is in Switzerland, at the Federal Level, the Grand Council ( equivalent of the Cabinet) has seven members AND they pay for their own accommodation, no Ministerial Housing entitlements there.
In contrast we at moment have 23 Cabinet Ministers both in and out of cabinet with associated Salaries and entitlements to match. It now costs us $130 million to run Parliament per year. Add that to the cost of Regional Councillors, Health Boards, City Councillors etc the cost of " governance " has rapidly escalated. Until the late 60s councillors received only meeting fee expenses, are really better governed today??

elZorro
04-09-2014, 06:55 AM
Mark Textor was the co-founder from Crosby-Textor who has been talking with John Key's office in the past. In recent times, he has been listed as one of the 10 most powerful people in Australia.

From Wikipedia, which is usually right..


Commentary and evaluationsBusiness Review Weekly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Review_Weekly) (BRW) included Textor in its list of Australia's 50 Most Influential People in Australian Business (2000). The Australian Financial Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Financial_Review) (AFR) also named him as one of the 10 most powerful people in Australia in 2007. He was the youngest figure honoured in both the BRW and the AFR lists in 2000 and 2002. These publications recognised Mark's ability to delve deeper into the critical factors that drive consumer, investor and voter behaviour; and devise strategies and tactics to influence it.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Textor#cite_note-9)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Textor#cite_note-10)
In 2012, Crikey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crikey)'s The Power Index described Mark as "the most domineering, divisive pollster this country's ever seen - and the most powerful... He's a genius at transforming raw research into compelling communication  —  someone who presses people’s emotional buttons, identifies points of division, and boils complex issues down to their core”.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Textor#cite_note-power-11)
In November 2013 he attracted attention in Australian media for a series of controversial tweets directed at Indonesian Foreign Affairs Minister Marty Natalegawa, whom he likened to a 1970s Pilipino [sic] porn star, also questioning his ethics. Mr Textor, who has been described as one of the most influential people in Australia, has himself advocated the use of Twitter by prospective employers as a way of gauging a person's true character. Claiming have received death threats, he deleted the tweets and then the twitter account.


So that's the question, has John Key or the party continued with contracting Mark Textor and his team in the leadup to the 2014 election? Is that the source of the party slogans "Working For New Zealand" and "Keep the Team That's Working" when the stats say otherwise?

elZorro
14-09-2014, 07:28 PM
Found this website that poses some interesting thoughts on National links to Crosby-Textor.

https://boonman.wordpress.com/category/crosby-textor/

nextbigthing
14-09-2014, 08:54 PM
Vote positive.

Never really caught on did it.

elZorro
15-09-2014, 06:21 AM
Vote positive.

Never really caught on did it.

NextBigThing, generally David Cunliffe has been on message, and it is up to outsiders like me to point out the duplicity in John Key's camp. I think Labour could have made more mileage out of the "Dirty Politics" book, and in particular the public have a right to know if Crosby-Textor are still being used by National as their campaign advisors.

Note that no-one in the press - not one person - has been brave enough to ask John Key that question yet. They all know that it's at the heart of the National Party behaviour we are seeing.

John Key is already prepared to divulge former GCSB secrets in the wake of the DotCom press release tonight. Who do you think gave him enough clues to be ready for all this? To be brave enough to bluff his way out of the earlier blogger debacle? He has been advised by people who know how populations behave, how they are resistant to change, don't want to know too much at once, would rather have the status quo. Crosby-Textor are cynical experts in this area.

Now we have a National government who are simply promising more of the same, but they are not saying that there will be no new policies sprung on NZ after the election, should they get back in. Crosby-Textor are most likely being paid handsomely to lead this, the neo-liberals from Australia.

Where do you think we are going?

fungus pudding
15-09-2014, 06:43 AM
NextBigThing, generally David Cunliffe has been on message, and it is up to outsiders like me to point out the duplicity in John Key's camp. I think Labour could have made more mileage out of the "Dirty Politics" book, and in particular the public have a right to know if Crosby-Textor are still being used by National as their campaign advisors.

Note that no-one in the press - not one person - has been brave enough to ask John Key that question yet. They all know that it's at the heart of the National Party behaviour we are seeing.

John Key is already prepared to divulge former GCSB secrets in the wake of the DotCom press release tonight. Who do you think gave him enough clues to be ready for all this? To be brave enough to bluff his way out of the earlier blogger debacle? He has been advised by people who know how populations behave, how they are resistant to change, don't want to know too much at once, would rather have the status quo. Crosby-Textor are cynical experts in this area.

Now we have a National government who are simply promising more of the same, but they are not saying that there will be no new policies sprung on NZ after the election, should they get back in. Crosby-Textor are most likely being paid handsomely to lead this, the neo-liberals from Australia.

Where do you think we are going?

eZ, I doubt that many people give two hoots about which PR firm any of the political parties use, unless they are particularly impressed with their advertising and would like to engage them for their own publicity. However it's certainly got you exercised, so rather than post a series of messages that I doubt are of interest to anyone else, why don't you email National and ask them! They have a heap of contact numbers on their web-site.

nextbigthing
15-09-2014, 04:24 PM
NextBigThing, generally David Cunliffe has been on message, and it is up to outsiders like me to point out the duplicity in John Key's camp. I think Labour could have made more mileage out of the "Dirty Politics" book, and in particular the public have a right to know if Crosby-Textor are still being used by National as their campaign advisors.

I don't feel Labour could have made any more mileage. The public were sick of hearing about it and many don't care, feel it's a part of politics from all parties anyway and didn't feel that name calling made in PRIVATE emails were a big deal. That's probably not how you feel, but it's how the majority of NZers feel - backed by the polls.


Note that no-one in the press - not one person - has been brave enough to ask John Key that question yet. They all know that it's at the heart of the National Party behaviour we are seeing.

John Key is already prepared to divulge former GCSB secrets in the wake of the DotCom press release tonight. Who do you think gave him enough clues to be ready for all this? To be brave enough to bluff his way out of the earlier blogger debacle? He has been advised by people who know how populations behave, how they are resistant to change, don't want to know too much at once, would rather have the status quo. Crosby-Textor are cynical experts in this area.

I don't think the majority of NZers care el Z. I'm not saying that's the correct view, I'm simply saying reporters aren't too scared to ask, they just realise 90% of NZers couldn't care less who National use. It's their choice.
As for being prepared for Dotcom, wouldn't you prepare if someone was attempting to take you down? Yes someone might have tipped him off. Someone tipped off Nicky Hager too. Pot calling the kettle black.



Now we have a National government who are simply promising more of the same, but they are not saying that there will be no new policies sprung on NZ after the election, should they get back in. Crosby-Textor are most likely being paid handsomely to lead this, the neo-liberals from Australia.

Where do you think we are going?

Yes, but Labour aren't saying they don't want to kill everyone over 60 after the election. Perhaps that's their policy? My point being any party can do what you're suggesting, not announce a policy. That's not limited to National. What are you conspiring National want to do but aren't telling us about?

Where do I think we're going? Well depends on the numbers. But if National get a majority I think we may see some unfairly harsh Labour laws come through (which will be repealed with vengence in three years anyway) but otherwise nothing of concern. But I kind of like the fact National has cut 1000 managers but added 2000 doctors (or whatever the numbers are) in the health system. Getting socialist stuff done better than the socialists. I kind of like the fact they're going to try and reduce taxes as they can so I can choose how to spend my money on what I like, instead of taxing me more and giving it to some chap who's short of work because he only wants to work as a musician. I hate the fact kids are going hungry but IMHO Labour had nine years to sort that out and achieved relatively nothing in that regard given the boom we had and I don't believe they have anything that will fix it this time. Targeted private work by socialists would be far more effective.

Hope you think these points are fair el Z. I'm not trying to troll etc, just show you the way someone else and sometimes the NZ public view it.

Cheers,

NBT

elZorro
18-09-2014, 09:01 AM
I don't feel Labour could have made any more mileage. The public were sick of hearing about it and many don't care, feel it's a part of politics from all parties anyway and didn't feel that name calling made in PRIVATE emails were a big deal. That's probably not how you feel, but it's how the majority of NZers feel - backed by the polls.



I don't think the majority of NZers care el Z. I'm not saying that's the correct view, I'm simply saying reporters aren't too scared to ask, they just realise 90% of NZers couldn't care less who National use. It's their choice.
As for being prepared for Dotcom, wouldn't you prepare if someone was attempting to take you down? Yes someone might have tipped him off. Someone tipped off Nicky Hager too. Pot calling the kettle black.



Yes, but Labour aren't saying they don't want to kill everyone over 60 after the election. Perhaps that's their policy? My point being any party can do what you're suggesting, not announce a policy. That's not limited to National. What are you conspiring National want to do but aren't telling us about?

Where do I think we're going? Well depends on the numbers. But if National get a majority I think we may see some unfairly harsh Labour laws come through (which will be repealed with vengence in three years anyway) but otherwise nothing of concern. But I kind of like the fact National has cut 1000 managers but added 2000 doctors (or whatever the numbers are) in the health system. Getting socialist stuff done better than the socialists. I kind of like the fact they're going to try and reduce taxes as they can so I can choose how to spend my money on what I like, instead of taxing me more and giving it to some chap who's short of work because he only wants to work as a musician. I hate the fact kids are going hungry but IMHO Labour had nine years to sort that out and achieved relatively nothing in that regard given the boom we had and I don't believe they have anything that will fix it this time. Targeted private work by socialists would be far more effective.

Hope you think these points are fair el Z. I'm not trying to troll etc, just show you the way someone else and sometimes the NZ public view it.

Cheers,

NBT

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier NBT, but some of my other posts covered part of it. Asking about Crosby-Textor is a bit too deep for most voters, but I think it's very pertinent. David Cunliffe said in the Leaders Debate last night, that National only keeps ACT alive because that's a testing ground for neo-liberal and dubious right-wing policies that they wouldn't dare bring through as National policies, but they'd like to.

I hadn't thought of it like that before, I think he's dead right. If National has continued to engage Crosby-Textor, they are looking to take us in the ACT direction over time. The neo-liberal lobby is not so big over here, but it's huge in the USA. Entire states in the USA are Republican, and there are some questions NZers should not ask such people, as they'll only be offended by the answers. Nice people otherwise, but with this nasty neo-liberal streak. I don't want to see NZ heading that way.

FP, you suggested that I simply email John Key and ask if they're using Crosby-Textor. I did. No reply, except for an automated response from one of the addresses. I guarantee you that this information is virtually a state secret, and if the National Party helpers see the words Crosby-Textor, it'll be singled out for non-response. The only way we'd hear the truth (and that's a maybe), would be for a reporter to ask the question of John Key when he's in front of a camera.

If the reporter wanted to stay in contact with National MPs after an election (which it looks like they might win) they would not ask this question.

nextbigthing
18-09-2014, 09:21 AM
I mostly agree about that statement with ACT. However internet mana are exactly the same thing but on the other side. DC chooses his words very carefully around IM because he'd be happy to have their support. The two balance each other out IMHO.

elZorro
18-09-2014, 09:54 PM
I mostly agree about that statement with ACT. However internet mana are exactly the same thing but on the other side. DC chooses his words very carefully around IM because he'd be happy to have their support. The two balance each other out IMHO.

I guess we'll find out in a day or two NBT.

I have received this email via an anonymous but verified source. I wasn't the only one asking about Crosby-Textor, and it seems like FP's idea, the direct question, has been answered. Hats off to the National Party for at least being open about it, when asked. I won't say anything more until I've had a think about it.

Edit: The National Party is or was using Crosby-Textor as campaign advisors, at least up until the 2014 elections. The information provider, B Smith, stopped working as a manager in the Office of the Prime Minister in November 2014.

Edit: this email image was deleted by someone recently, (not me), so here it is again:

nextbigthing
18-09-2014, 10:09 PM
Sure. And?

elZorro
18-09-2014, 10:15 PM
Sure. And?

NBT, you need to read up on Crosby-Textor, and then you'll see that this is a pretty big deal for some NZ voters.

nextbigthing
19-09-2014, 06:50 AM
NBT, you need to read up on Crosby-Textor, and then you'll see that this is a pretty big deal for some NZ voters.

Fair enough el Z. I shall try and do that when I get a chance.

nextbigthing
19-09-2014, 06:54 AM
El Z, what do you think will happen to investor confidence if the center left manage to form a coalition after the election?

elZorro
19-09-2014, 07:41 AM
El Z, what do you think will happen to investor confidence if the center left manage to form a coalition after the election?

I would think that they'll remember that the sky didn't fall in during Labour's last three terms. In fact I think most businesses made a lot of money, and we all got the place cranking.

nextbigthing
19-09-2014, 10:42 AM
I would think that they'll remember that the sky didn't fall in during Labour's last three terms. In fact I think most businesses made a lot of money, and we all got the place cranking.

Or maybe they'll remember that in nine years of pretty good global economic times, Labour failed to really achieve anything substantial and that this time the economic conditions aren't as rosy and they have a different set of economic ideas this time such as a capital gains tax

elZorro
19-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Or maybe they'll remember that in nine years of pretty good global economic times, Labour failed to really achieve anything substantial and that this time the economic conditions aren't as rosy and they have a different set of economic ideas this time such as a capital gains tax

NBT, if you forget about your own situation of perhaps having to pay back 15% of a capital gain on investments (otherwise not captured outside the family home) from a future point in time(set low so that it's fair). It's the message that it sends that is important. Like R&D tax credits. Or 10,000 affordable houses built a year on average. These are fair, good policies.

fungus pudding
19-09-2014, 11:32 AM
NBT, if you forget about your own situation of perhaps having to pay back 15% of a capital gain on investments (otherwise not captured outside the family home) from a future point in time(set low so that it's fair). It's the message that it sends that is important. Like R&D tax credits. Or 10,000 affordable houses built a year on average. These are fair, good policies.

Or another way of looking at it they are dopey unrealistic policies.

elZorro
19-09-2014, 11:36 AM
Or another way of looking at it they are dopey unrealistic policies.

You need to take those CT sunglasses off, FP. Try reading glasses, and have a look at StatsNZ.

elZorro
19-09-2014, 11:43 AM
Here's an older article from The Standard which I just found. It links Crosby-Textor to big mining interests, and back to John Key.

http://thestandard.org.nz/more-on-crosby-textor-mining-and-the-nats/


Nothing much has changed since this article.

http://www.crosbytextor.com/the-board/

fungus pudding
19-09-2014, 11:52 AM
You need to take those CT sunglasses off, FP. Try reading glasses, and have a look at StatsNZ.

You seem to be more worried about this PR outfit than you are about the election. Just so you know - they're not standing.

craic
19-09-2014, 12:32 PM
And why do Labour not use Crosby- Textor or some such unit to inflate their vote instead of some outdates philosophies from the depression?

elZorro
19-09-2014, 02:45 PM
And why do Labour not use Crosby- Textor or some such unit to inflate their vote instead of some outdates philosophies from the depression?

You're joking, right? CT would never help a party like Labour. And Labour wouldn't use them on principle. The CT people are neoliberals, they play hard and fast. That's not core NZ Labour Party culture.

But I get what you mean, Labour are going to have to foot it with the likes of CT in future. They appear to be here to stay, part of the political landscape. But I'll be helping to give National some grief about it, just the same.

blackcap
19-09-2014, 03:07 PM
Cut it out El Zorro, calling National a neo liberal party :) Your joking right? THe National party of NZ would sit to the left of the Democrats in the USA.

elZorro
19-09-2014, 03:13 PM
Cut it out El Zorro, calling National a neo liberal party :) Your joking right? THe National party of NZ would sit to the left of the Democrats in the USA.

National are trying to look like a centre right party, but are keeping alive ACT, to test a few policies out with, and they have been using CT for over ten years. They've sold off chunks of state assets several times, always have higher unemployment on average, always have higher crown debt relatve to GDP, don't mind helping to sack people to do that, and are keen on lower taxes for the well off. They increase taxes like GST, which favour the rich and penalise the poor. Sounds like neo-liberal policy to me.

craic
19-09-2014, 03:27 PM
Any sports team that worked on Labours philosophy would be blown off the park. If you wear a cloth cap and drive a car with a side valve engine you will lose your credibility and all that goes with it. Probably the first thing I would want to change would be the name, Labour - it has the wrong connotations in the modern world. Most of those who lived through the depression are dead or were too young to have any emotional hangover from the time.
You're joking, right? CT would never help a party like Labour. And Labour wouldn't use them on principle. The CT people are neoliberals, they play hard and fast. That's not core NZ Labour Party culture.

But I get what you mean, Labour are going to have to foot it with the likes of CT in future. They appear to be here to stay, part of the political landscape. But I'll be helping to give National some grief about it, just the same.

fungus pudding
19-09-2014, 03:51 PM
Any sports team that worked on Labours philosophy would be blown off the park. If you wear a cloth cap and drive a car with a side valve engine you will lose your credibility and all that goes with it. Probably the first thing I would want to change would be the name, Labour - it has the wrong connotations in the modern world. Most of those who lived through the depression are dead or were too young to have any emotional hangover from the time.

They'll no doubt rename soon to reflect the coming amalgamation - The Green something party.

Major von Tempsky
19-09-2014, 05:17 PM
The Green Monkey Disease Party; The Call the Midwife Party; Winston First; Craigslist; Caught in the Act Party (in flagrante delicto); The Harry Harawira Party; The MayOry Party; The Peters Done Party.