http://www.nz.finance.yahoo.com/news...024346563.html
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And on top of all that they do all three companies in the same morning (notice how the NZX announcements come out at the same time for all three Caramel companies) so the two 'Independent' directors are actually hauling in the dosh and just rubber stamping things across all three companies.
Looks like the shareholders decided then.
Best laugh of the month :
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/166044.pdf
MLN - Determination of Directors Independence
11:50am, 2 Nov 2012 | DIRECTOR
2 November 2012
Determination of Directors Independence
Listing Rule 3.3.2
The Marlin Global Limited Board has determined that the following directors are independent directors per listing rule 3.3.2:
Alistair Ryan – Chairman
Carol Campbell – Chair of Audit & Risk Committee
The following director is not independent due to “Disqualifying Relationships” as defined in the Listing Rules:
Carmel Fisher
Ben Doshi
Chief Financial Officer
Marlin Global Limited
Excerpt from an interview : "we have a very similar approach to Warren Buffett."
Guess who said the above?
Thanks for another good laugh this morning :
Underperforms stated benchmark by a staggering 42.1% (more if you use share price performance) so "independent" chairman changes the performance benchmark for comparison purposes to try and divert attention away from what an appallingly bad performance Fisher Fund has delivered.
Remember that the performance is from a manager who markets herself as someone who invests as in the Warren Buffett mould!
I think I will send the article to Warren Buffett so he can have a good laugh as well about the pretenders who use his name to get money in from investors but make all kind of excuses when they cannot deliver like Warren does.
********* Excerpt : "Chairman Alistair Ryan admitted that Marlin's recent performance had been unsatisfactory but he highlighted a graph showing it had outperformed the MSCI Global Small Cap Gross Index (in NZ dollar terms). A release to the NZX in July showed that Marlin's NAV had risen by a total of 7.9 per cent since November 2007 whereas the MSCI index was down 10.5 per cent over the same period. However the company's benchmark, which is the NZX bank bill rate plus 5 per cent, has appreciated by over 50 per cent since inception, well above Marlin's 7.9 per cent." *******
And here comes the best part - Fisher Fund is doing its best so it does not matter that the performance is bad! Wonder how many brokers and financial planners read that and explained that to their clients before putting money into Marlin. Or was it the juicy brokerage that they received and the yearly monitoring fee they receive from their clients which motivated them to put their clients' money with the Warren Buffett disciple?
******Excerpt : "The problem with this process is that the manager is only required to "do its best to achieve a return on the portfolio which meets or exceeds the benchmark rate over the medium to long term".*******
Good Sept quarter update ......love it when things like Tom Tailor are up 27% for the quarter
No doubt Carmel gets the shareholder discount
SP continues to head South....down nearly 10% from where it was when Elevation were causing Caramel some problems.
Brent Sheather points out a few issues with MLN and Caramel.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10847181
"Votes in favour [of Elevation] accounted for fewer than 8% of total shares on issue, Marlin said." Doesn't sound like much. But the flip side is that only 31% of total shares on issue actually voted to support Fisher Funds. Hardly a resounding endorsement.... I'm not a Marlin or Elevation investor but I do admire Chris Swasbrook's audacity/nous."
Marlin shareholders deserve the contempt shown to them by Carmel Fisher and her team.
Caramel and Swashbuckler sounds like a partnership made in heaven
Maybe they should join up ... the mind boggles
I have been a Marlin shareholder for almost 2 years and I think their performance has been piss poor.
I voted for Elevation Capital to wind this crappy fund up so I can get my money back, so I'm disappointed this didn't happen. Perhaps the ones who voted against Elevation are seduced by Carmel... I admit I was back when I first bought, maybe I still am for still holding.
I'll take a bit of a loss if I sold now, so I'm just gonna sit on these crappy units for a long long time and hope Carmel and her team of men can turn it around.
The loss is a sunk cost. If you were to invest money now, would you choose marlin. If not, sell.
Sound advice Sparky and CJ.
The team including a Chairman, Alistair Ryan, who is "not afraid" of her?
I saw Mr Ryan in action when he was CFO and director at Sky City. When Evan Davies told him to jump, he asked how high. That's how Sky City got into the mess they got into, loading up on debt and acquiring all kinds of operations - Canbet, Entertainment Centre, Adelaide Casino etc. Starved Auckland casino until dealers in the Auckland main dealing room had to wear flea collars to ward off fleas as the place was so badly ran down and maintained!
Fat hope of turning things around in my strong opinion.
Took the institutional shareholders to force a change in directorship, and then management before Sky City started turning around.
All those lost years and lost opportunities - because Evan Davies and his lackey, Alistair Ryan, were too busy empire building and destroying value for shareholders.
It is going to take the same sort of changes before Marlin will stop being a dog.
Woof woof - from overseas.
Funny.? I went to a SKC presentation given by Alistair Ryan a couple of years ago,put on by local broker Hamilton Hindin and Greene.I only went along to hear Mark Waller from Ebos speak.Anyhow Alistair Ryan so impressed me I brought some SKC shares.He out lined their future plans for all of their Casinos.All made good sense to me.He knew the business inside out.
How did you know that " he knew the business inside out ".. Percy.. .. Do you have some experience in the running of casino's.. :-))
Or was he just a good talker ??
Not picking on you .. Simply trying to identify which of the impressions given on here ( Balances or Yours ) are closer to the truth..
Disc.. Not a visitor to SKC or holder.. Not a holder of Marlin .. Thank goodness.
Really the way he answered questions from the floor.
The direction the SKC SP took once they drifted away from the core asset of Auckland suggest that Mr Market eventually took a dim view of the expansion no matter how well management might have been at explaining it. If I had 50c for every time SKC management had said in meetings that Adelaide was a great buy and it would soon start to turn around, that they were now getting the right response from the State authorities re expansion, that the carpark was the answer and construction would soon begin.....I would have a lot of $$$ to spend at SKC in the fancy high rollers room.
But he did (and continues to) show a great ability to portray calm and knowledge of a situation that others are orchestrating. Mr Evans was the man making the big moves at SKC with regard to expansion etc that got SKC into trouble, however it was Mr Ryan who told investors that they knew what they were doing and everything was going to be OK.
Now we have Ms Fisher making the decisions and Mr Ryan telling us they know what they are doing and everything will be OK. Sound familiar!
I note with some interest (and again missed by the financial press) that the main stock Marlin wanted to talk about at the AGM was the fund deciding to invest in VW. After the big deal they made about how this illustrated the smarts and new direction of the investment team I find two points interesting.
1. VW does not feature in the top stock holdings in the latest report from MLN
2. When Marlin floated (and most reports I have read from them ever since) they talk about being a small to medium cap company investor. VW I think in most investors minds is anything but a small cap. Does this mean that by stealth Marlin is no longer following the mandate for investment that it has claimed for all these years?
Thanks for the advice Sparky and CJ. You've given me some things to think about.
I did have a larger MLN holding earlier in the year, and I sold about 70% of it in May.
I thought I'd hold on to a few in case markets rise, but somehow MLN has fallen in a rising market.
Out as of today. That will be the last time I invest in a fund with the Fisher name attached.
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/172426.pdf
That Carmel performs wonders, doesn't she?
In 3 years, MSCI index up 21.9% but Marlin's NAV is down 3.8%, and shareholders' returns up 2.0%.
But her management returns = 2.0%+ so unit holders, no smoked marlin for you - only canned mackerel (used by date 15 March 2010).
You put in the money, you take the risk and she eats the crayfish and caviar with champagne, irrespective!
Marlin looking a bit better?
Price picked up the last few days and currently 75cps against NAV hitting 90cps. Given they still pay out 2% of NAV per quarter as div, then it's good to see NAV also rising. I have been buying at 70-73cps over past few months, as the regular high yield, 17% discount to NAV and additional diversification (i.e. exposure to markets I'm not interested in investing in directly) are all pluses for the long-term, income generating portfolios.
I probably not - the discount to NAV changes all the time for some reason that I don't know of. The large 17% discount to NAV indicates people aren't very confident in the managers re Marlin - and for good reason. There may be upside potential if confidence is restored through some solid and consistent performance - then not only the NAV will be higher, but should trade at a narrower discount also.
But at the same time, the large discount will mean the yield is better, since the quarterly div/distribution is based on the higher NAV rather than the share price. So as an income stock it should be quite good.
Regarding arguments that this dividend is actually a capital redistribution - does it matter at all? From the finance perspective where it focuses on cash flows: cash flows are cash flows regardless of where this comes from.
I've never actually considered Marlin since I don't really know anything about their investments (and too lazy to). I've always considered KFL to be the better of the three brothers.
I have been picking up these from time to time as a divvy stock and from that end they have preformed very well . 10% plus PA, and a pie divvy to boot.
Now I dont care if the boss wears a skirt or not, so long as I get to ride the gravy train.
Now I and wondering if it's the skirt thingy thats got some posters getting the pricker here.
Or is just coz MLN is not in the NZX50 so not getting the exposure ??
cheers BB:)
MLN have more than recovered the NAV lost in paying out a 2% dividend last month, despite turbulence in global markets. They are still trading at a 20% discount to NAV (at 71cps). I think they make a logical addition to a diversified portfolio at current prices, particularly for those requiring regular income from their investments.
They usually trade at a discount, but 20% is at the extreme end! There are always some closed end funds that trade at a premium - e.g. MFF:ASX currently trading at $1.39/unit, but with only $1.19 of NTA (or $1.26 allowing for deferred tax). Some more illiquid investment trusts on the NZX secondary listing can be picked up at odd discounts occasionally after taking account of currency translation, but I still think 20% discount is a bargain.
Additionally, the PIE structure may be tax efficient for some investors and the relative liquidity over unlisted funds can also be an advantage.
My first post
Have been following the fisher funds discounts for some time, and have Marlin for divvie (effectively 10% after tax) plus currency effect as our dollar falls. I think the discount will shrink if the NTA gets back above a $1 - it certainly did with Kingfish fund since it moved above the issue price in october last years - even traded a premium briefly for a day or two recently.
Welcome gorn! :)
One of the most challenging positions in investment is those people who rely on their portfolio for income, but whose portfolio is relatively small and who struggle to generate an excess of income - may even need to erode capital.
These people cannot afford to lose capital or erode it too quickly, as they have very few good options for rebuilding that capital and therefore require a low risk approach. Normally, that would mean diversification or safe low-returning investments such as term deposits. However, these folk also rely on the income (preferably spread across the year) and the lower the return, the higher the likelihood they will need to eat into capital. Their portfolio is probably also too small to diversify at a stock-specific level. I am guessing there are quite a few retirees with $50-$200k in savings on top of the family home who would be in such a position.
Faced with such a situation, I personally would try to put 60-80% in rolling term deposits and then look for opportunities with the potential for some capital growth for the remainder, aiming for a lower risk end of spectrum and good liquidity. Right now, I would probably choose a selection of secondary market bonds with resettable rates, property trusts and share funds. This is where I think MLN has a niche - providing exposure to offshore markets and currency movements while still paying regular, large dividends in a tax-favourable structure. It is also liquid, has low exit/entry costs (brokerage) and covered by local regulation. At 20% discount, the downside seems capped to a degree.
I would be interested in hearing from posters who can identify other investments that meet these criteria.
Not exactly a great record.Raised something like $1 per share.NTA now 89cents?
That is not a good "funds under management record."
Maybe the SP discount to NTA is a true indicator.
Avoid.
PIEFUNDS :Thanks for your earlier tip Lizard :)
Avoid ??? really !!!
I have a 6 figure holding here, returning 9%+ (pie), at 20% dis to NTA I Feel quite secure.
Read their balance sheet. They dont have any debt etc.... Doing a steady buyback etc.
The Great "Checker uppera", Do they answer your emails... Ans., Yes. And on one occasion
they rang me with an explanation.
" Maybe the SP discount to NTA is a true indicator."
No it's not. But the fundamentals are. The SP can stay as low as it likes coz I love to
accumulate at these levels.
Cheers BB;)
MLN listed in October/November 2007.NTA at time was .9721 cents, and the SP was about the same..
Now nearly 6 years later the NTA is 89cents,and the SP is 73 cents.
In the meantime look what other companies' share price have done; EBO from $4.82 to $9.60,TUA from $1.12 to $1.80,POT from $6.76 to $14,RYM from $2.07 to $6.76,SKL from.96 to $1.38.
While MLN SP has gone from .97cents to .73cents.
They have destroyed shareholders wealth.Your money is better invested elsewhere to obtain dividends and SP growth.
I repeat avoid MLN,as they are a serial under performer.
"MLN listed in October/November 2007".... yup
Then came the big financial crunch 2008.
MLN, KFL,BRM took a hit as did most other coy's
The LPT's did also. Those who got in on the low levels
are Smiling today, Divvies in the 9 -10% (PIE)
I think Percy we are not on the same wave length.
You are talking mainly growth stocks, while I follow
divvy stocks, mainly.
I think these ETF's will hold in until overseas markets find
their feet. Those holding at 72 -74c will be in a nice position.
"In the meantime look what other companies' share price have done; EBO from $4.82 to $9.60,TUA from $1.12 to $1.80,POT from $6.76 to $14,RYM from $2.07 to $6.76,SKL from.96 to $1.38."
Nice going for a bit of hind sight and I would make the point.
(no offence) You are a trader and as such do not make your money until you sell.
I am an invester, I hate selling shares. And do so only as a portfolio management tool.
Therefore my portfolio returns 10.43% over all (mostly PIE) and , oh yes there is
quite a cap gain in there. But if i was to sell, then I would only have to put the
money somewhere else. And in this market climate ??. No I will just keep pulling
the interest and reinvesting into divvy stocks, my style you see.
You off course make a lot more money than me coz you trade Short/ medium term
and you understand the market forces much better than me.
so all in all.... each to their own
BB
MLN.... SShhhh else they will all know
Totally agree BB, especially the SShhhh part. ZZ
EBO. used to hold & sold... mug me
HNZ. .... tks for the tip I will put on watch list and do some study
cheers BB
Percy, your points are valid for a knowledgeable investor. Less so for an inexperienced retiree with a limited sum of capital from which they require income and don't want to have to regularly liquidate small parcels of shares to get it.
RYM never paid a high % yield. SKL fell a long way from its $1.15 issue price and stopped divs completely before things finally turned around for it. And, if we are talking of an investor with just $50k- $200k in savings in retirement, who wants to add $3-5k in income per year to their super, how many shares are you going to suggest they take a risk on to get some diversification? Especially if they only plan to review their portfolio once or twice a year...
I guess I should probably have started a new non-MLN-specific thread re suitable investments for this type of "challenging" portfolio.
I know that the dividend comes out of capital and that it is debateable whether 8% of NAV is sustainable without eroding NAV, as it requires them to achieve at least 8%pa net return - a difficult level for most funds to average through good and bad. However, if they can achieve a 6% return, they will still erode capital relatively slowly and will be returning a better income than a term deposit presently does... and if the NTA gap closes, there is some capital gain to be had as well. There are also some possible macro winds in their sales as NZ currency has been trading at historic highs and now trending back down. That means, that for now at least, they appear to be achieving returns greater than div payout, as the last series of ex-div NAV read as follows:
Dec 2012: 0.8068
Mar 2013: 0.8627
Jun 2013: 0.8815
Lizard,I have been trying to find the thread "where would you invest" where I stated about 6 stocks,can't find it.
So here is a new list of 6 stocks [plus a spare] which will give growth and dividends,which should not need any adjustments for 5 years.
EBO $9.65 , CEN $5.36 ,HNZ .82cents, POT $14.01, SUM $2.92, TUA $1.80 and spare one SKL $1.29.
You have described me and my Family Trust very well.
I do nearly all my fiscal transactions through my Family Trust,
and use this income source to top up my pension.I search for
Divvy Stocks for the above reason(s). The years excess is returned
back into divvy investments.
Must admit I bought heaps of FBU when they were ~$6.00 , still have them.
Cheers and Thanks for your posts
BB:)
MLN have put on a pretty good showing in recent months, with increased NAV, divs and s.p.
Currently trading at 78cps and has paid a 1.77cps div since July post, for a total shareholder return of 23.5% in 4 months. Next div 1.81cps (up 8.4% from the 1.67cps in Dec 2012). Discount to NAV has dropped back to more typical levels of 16-18%, but could still close the gap further if they can convince the market that they have improved their form.
Discount to NAV has reduced considerably in the last few weeks and is now around 10 or 11%. I suspect buying in their own shares is a major part of the reason.
There's lots I don't like about the way this 'share' is run but do like its exposure to Europe at the moment and did like the discount to NAV when it was around 18% - I have to say though that if the discount gets below 4% I'd sell and move the money to a properly run overseas European Investment Trust.
Was I the only STer at Marlin AGM yesterday? They put on a good lunch. Roast beef & pork etc.It was a mirror lunch to Brm Lunch a week before. Nice view of Ellerslie race course. A very relaxed meeting and not too many questions asked.
Whats the thoughts on MLN lately?
That sounds better!
Capital gains and plunged in capital are quiet different.
777, what about your thoughts on the effect of fx on them? I haven't looked at unit trust in depth and don't know if they hedge their dividend income streams or even if they can? My only thought is that as the nzd is low, naturally these securities value denominated in NZD would be high and vice versa?
So Brian Gaynor was also scaremongering?
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ma...FKfu8wegtrD4BA
Excerpt : "Marlin paid a 7.43c per share dividend in its June 2012 year even though it reported a loss of $12 million. These dividends were paid out of capital and the company now has an accumulated earnings deficit of $11 million. These dividends are counter-intuitive because one of the advantages of a closed-end fund is its ability to retain financial resources in a market downturn so that it can fully participate in a market recovery. Marlin's dividend payments negate one of the clear advantages of a closed-end fund."
The sp is well below $1.00 issued price so how can there be capital gain (losses obviously exceeds gains) to distribute from? Logic alone tells you that Marlin is creating dividends by giving back the punters their capital back!
777 sounds like a plant by Fisher Funds to keep the good times going by posting what are blatantly misleading comments - just as Fisher Funds create the illusion of profitability by distributing 'dividends'.
Actually, it's about management fees for eternity? Heads they win, tails you lose.
Believe what you like Balance. Your negativity on most threads is boring. You can return to my ignore list. Bye
And no, I am not as plant by anyone. Just a happy shareholder who has done well out of these funds by buying at the right time and selling occasionally when they close in ion their NTA. The warrants have also been a successful play.
Haha - facts are facts. Not nice being caught out?
And the fact is that Fisher Funds create the illusion of dividends by paying unit holders back their capital - meanwhile earning management fees every year, come sunshine or as in the case of Marlin and Barammundi, come hail as that has been the case with NTA still below IPO price.
Well there is a bias when you are anti something all together. You have to give a full picture.
I cant be bothered in going into detail as to why for some (in my opinion everyone should have a percentage of their portfolio) should be in managed funds.. specially closed ones as well, but il just give a quick view as to why.
First - If you try to time the market (like in another post somewhere i saw someone mentioning Martin Hawes is selling down his portfolio), in my opinion that's stupidity, because timing the markets are for gamblers and speculators.. no one can claim that they have and won.. yeah you might get lucky, but luck isn't an investment strategy.
Second - I completely believe in being able to pickup on technical and fundamental analysis to have good trades and to change holding levels and composition, but if you think that alone is enough then also its a stupid move.. after all again and again it has shown FOR MOST (and im talking about atleast 95% of all sophisticated investors) that you can not beat the market, so don't rely on your awesome picking skills.
Not going to go into TONS of other reasons, but the point i want to make is this, you have to allocate a percentage of your overall holding to be dedicated to managed funds.. and if MLN isn't the greatest in your opinion, then should diversify that percentage of holdings into many funds, because during major events you would be almost certain the managers aren't going to sell down the shares at cheap price (the holders of the shares in the fund might) but you if you don't, unrealised losses won't occur..
So its not about beating the market, you have to think of it as an insurance policy. The key is to figure out the number of funds to hold in, the % of your portfolio in funds, the markets you are gaining exposure to and the levels of dividends paid as a % of your portfolio you wish to acheive..
finally though to get back to your main point.. MLN has been paying on average 7cents per share per year over the past 10 years.. so 70 cents Plus as off this week around 80 cents is the price per share.. that's 1.5 dollars per share total since inception.. if you look at any hedge fund manager, the number one rule is guard your capital first by tweaking this "ALL WEATHER PORTFOLIO" and then go ahead with perhaps 20% of your portfolio on "GAMBLING" or taking bets - A.K.A to pick certain stocks, do trades, or use your magic ball to forecast the next crash like Martin Hawes
:t_up:
Bonds should be held all the time as a % of your holding.. so is cash precisely for a crash (assessed & adjusted from time to time depending on certain measures you take into account such as VIX etc. and your macro economic outlook) but you still need a % explicitly for funds (a combination of them to have a balanced exposure across continents, markets, industries, cycles & securities[including funds that primarily deal with bonds]) .. you need that for a balanced portfolio..
The point i was making earlier was that a specific allocation for funds is necessary if you want a to safe guard your capital and have modest balanced return with less hands on approach. A combination of a few is best for risk management. MLN or other funds should be part of a balanced portfolio.
I love making bets.. picking stock or using other instruments, i'll win some and loose some, but i'll be naive to think i know best. And it will be only part allocated for my betting portion.. i'd like to know the rest of my holdings is balanced out to give me solid steady income stream overtime, with the upside of gains and the peace of mind that i can go on vacation and shut down my computers and get off the grid whenever i want :D
I held Kingfish for a reasonable while - mainly as a default holding for NZX and a place to park some money. Did quite well out of it between divvy reinvestment and market growth, however was always conscious that the divvy payout ratio wasn't sustainable, especially when look at the holdings. The divvies from these were not enough for the Kingfish payout - so coming from capital. Could argue whether capital vs capital growth is funding it - but essentially the same thing - as in the end it ain't from divvies received. A major downturn would see these majorly punished.....
Good case in point of what this fund is about :
Quarterly dividend of 1.72 cps.
https://www.nzx.com/companies/MLN/announcements/282841
But fund actually lost 6.2% in the quarter.
https://www.nzx.com/companies/MLN/announcements/282215
Dividend yield story? More like dividend yield fairy tale!
Amazing how many fall for this trick/illusion of 'performance' so manager can keep clipping the management fees etc.
Thanks for your concern but it is what it is - can understand your sentiment if you happen to be in shares and companies which I comment negatively on as I think they possess negative attributes and features.
I thought that's what this forum is about? Posters commenting on positives and negatives?
Absolutely correct positives and negatives ...and we know whats more likely to be coming from your end don't we? Thousands of satisfied shareholders, who probably cant be bothered countering your negativity, would in my view, outweigh your comments but by all means don't let me inhibit your posts. I think the problem lies in that your view of this, and the other Fisher funds, seems unable to understand or comprehend that good returns can be made in many shares given the right circumstances. You seem unable to see this..or choose to ignore it. Buy at the right time and even less than perfect situations can return well for you but a simplistic evaluation such as you keep pushing along ad infinitim is just that..simplistic.
Will make for a new definition in the Oxford English dictionary of the word 'satisfied'.
Reminds me of Fawlty Towers !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/li...ls-best-rants/
Have a look at the last video and ENJOY! :D :D :D
I wonder how many options will be taken up this week?The option exercise price is 81cents with the share price being 79/80.
The share price is about a 10% discount to NTA of 88cents.
This being a poorly performing fund I would have thought a discount of 15-20% would be more appropriate.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11723746
Excerpt : "Other examples of the worship of false gods abound: the NZX listed investment companies run by Fisher Funds long ago instituted a policy whereby each quarter the funds give shareholders back some of their capital.
Directors label this return of capital a dividend thereby giving investors the warm fuzzies. You can however see from the accounts of the Marlin Global Fund, for example, that most of the dividends are actually a return of capital.
For example Marlin Global pays a dividend of 6.88 cents per share which on a share price of 79 cents is a dividend yield of 8.7 per cent.
This of course looks fabulous to the naive yield crazed investor but the reality is that all of this "dividend" is actually a return of the capital of shareholders.
According to the Marlin profit and loss account for the year ended 30 June 2016 dividend and interest income of $966,000 doesn't even cover operating expenses of $1.65 million.
This latter figure is made up of a management fee of $880,000 and various other operating costs.
There is no actual earnings, in the conventional sense of the term, available to fund a dividend. One could take this capital distribution model to its ultimate conclusion by paying out all of the company's capital to shareholders thereby delivering a fabulous yield of 100 per cent."
FOOLS AND THEIR MONIES ARE ALWAYS PARTED.
Couldn't get that link to work?
Googled and got this ?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11723746