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cheers JT good read
Thanks Silver it is indeed. Im constantly seeing and hearing comments re what PIE is buying/holding/selling; Mike and co are frontrunners and have a lot of kudos. I have 3 of their 4 funds and have just checked their performance. They are
Pie Emerging .....held for re 9.5 months; Gain 67.3% as of today
Pie Div fund........held for re 9 months;Gain 14.5%
Pie Global fund....held for re 6 months; Gain 5.2% still re 40% in cash. cheers JT
I must have bought in about the same time JT and the same funds. More than happy so far.
PIE FUND Performances Annualised Return since inception
AGF 20.4%
ADF 27.8%
AECF 75.1%
GSCF 11.1% (newest fund under 1 year ols , re 40% in cash)
Hes got a pretty good performance, nearly as good as me...... anyway do you think hes the best in nz if the measure of success is your performance?
Don't know Bull , they must be right up there surely. Here's the latest returns which are getting harder to come by atm.
PIE Australasian growth fund 224% return from Dec 2007
PIE Australasian div fund 88.9% return since Dec 2011
PIE Australasian emerging co fund 69.2% since april 2013
PIE Global small companies fund 6% return since sept 2013 ' still sitting on some cash i think. All funds returns up to April 2014
I hold 3 funds
Hi Joshuatree.
I am curious, are you the Joshua that won their share contest and went to Omaha ...
Please do not feel that you have to answer ...
Bit of stuff behind the man who started Pie
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11313943
Does he mention the great education he received from ShareTrader??? :D
I was at a PIE investor meeting and someone quizzed him on that holding ( about 18 months ago ) bearing in mind the mining scene was done and dusted then .... he said pretty much - we are comfortable with the investment
and in contact or regular contact with the management .... sounds like been led up the garden path by the Aussies ... but KW as you have alluded to mining services been in the too hard basket for a while now . I see AMP dumped a million shares yesterday, be ugly for PIE ( and I am in a few of the funds ) if they are still in , or in fact if they only pulled the trigger today . Who knows maybe they will see this as " deep value " and Double Up , ...brings to mind
that great quote " ballsiest move I ever saw Maverick "
Bottom line is you can't win em all and I am not bagging him , have a great deal of respect for what he and the whole team at PIE have achieved so far .
Funds down from yesterdays unit prices by....
ADF -2.99%
AECF -5.08%%
Don't have info for AGF.
So if you are in ADF on a $40k investment then down $1196
If you are n AECF on a $40K investment then down $2032
As PIE probably include TTN in their Global fund within the AU component and a smaller % invested so less impact
It's nice to know that even the best make mistakes. I benchmark my performance against them. Of course, I have a big advantage as I can liquidate relatively easily if I make a mistake.
I went to the piefunds conference in Feb where Jim Sturgess (CEO of Titan) spoke. He gave a very compelling investment case. I spoke to him personally afterwards. Perhaps I'm not a good read, but he certainly spoke confidently about future profits.
It is refreshing to see a fund manager be so open about their trading. They spend a good deal of time explaining their investment decisions and give that info away for free.
This month, they are donating their new entry fees to charity. Nice guys!
DISC:I do not own any pie funds, but do hope to get invited back to their conference next year!
Fortunately PIE had halved their investment in TTN before the hit. Im still happy having funds with them.
Not sure about the phone call message today though wishing me happy birthday!!!. Luckily i wasn't answering or acknowledging hitting 60. The Gin and frozen raspberries is being a bit kinder atm tho lol.
I see my Doctor is on the investment committee.
He did mention something about this to me a year or so ago.
I would point out that the funds are all very recent and, with the possible exception of one, only short term results are available - all drawn from a bull market.
We all make investment mistakes its part of the game
Sure during a bull market, but in any other market active managers may do better.Quote:
This is why index funds are recommended over active funds. Lower fees, and the index beats out the majority of active fund managers (which is to be expected as an index automatically dumps losers and adds winners, so you are always on the right side of the rebalancing).
Pie funds I believe may be one of the best performing managers over the last 5 yrs but like I say lets see amoung all the fund managers when it ends
Good markets since end 2008 make most of us look like gurus, when the party ends we will see the real gurus! quote by bull
Wow, very broad generalization there. PIE funds have smashed the indexes, Milford are well ahead too. Saying index funds are recommended over active funds is way too simplistic. The key is asset allocation. If you are in the wrong indexes then you might outperform an active manager in a fund for that asset class/subclass, but you most likely will not outperform a skilled active manager that is investing across different asset classes/subclasses and actively adjusting exposure to asset classes, geographic regions, FX etc. The key is picking the right manager. I use both PIE and Milford and am very happy, but they only manage <20% of my holdings as their NZ/AU focused funds invest in a small part of the investment universe.
Here is a counter argument to you sating "an index automatically dumps losers and adds winners". Look at when XRO was added to the MSCI global index, most of the index funds tracking that index bought at $35+ and will now need to sell at half that when/if XRO drops from the index this month (an will also have an FX loss too as the NZD has fallen >10% since then). The smart active managers (e.g Milford) bought XRO at $1-$4 well before it appeared in any index, and have sold down after it was bought by index tracking funds at 10+ times the price. PIE Funds are a small cap specialists and will be buying future winners well before they are large enough to enter most indexes.
I have held both index and managed funds. According to my very rough records 100k invested in MZY, OZY and Pie's AGF in 2007 has been turned into MZY 77k, OZY 120k and Pie's AGF 351k. No dividends included in this very simple calculation. I no longer hold index funds and am a very happy Pie holder.
Yes of course XRO is a minuscule % of the total index, but how many other stocks in that index have also been bought high and sold low by the passive manager being required to follow the index? But I know I can not argue with a passive index convert so will not waste my breath. All I can speak of is personal experience, having had a large chunk of my portfolio managed by a passive manager and having totally outperformed with my own investments and with investments with (carefully selected) passive managers.
Indexes and passive managers will give you the average and for some people that is acceptable. I have been raised to not be content with being average and will always strive to far exceed the average. I pick active managers that share the same philosophy and passion for being the best, not just average. I liken passive managers to the students I went to school/university with who were happy to get 50% in an exam and that was their target. My target has always been 100%
All Pie's Australasian funds are closed.
I could never understand the holding in TTN, but then again im a person who believes no company can defy macro headwinds
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102157205
Thought you guys might find this useful.
I guess it is all about risk and the investment horizon. Endowment funds etc have a 100 year plus investment horizon and need to be low risk. Index funds are perfect for them. But even they usually have a portion in core satellite investments. Like most things in life where there are two opposing views at opposite ends to the scale, the prudent approach is usually a hybrid one. Having a small portion of funds in something like PIE's emerging companies fund or Aus small cap growth as part of a balanced and diversified portfolio can generate returns above the market. To write them off as you did is short sighted.
Sounds like you're chomping at the bit to start a "KW Nimble Superior Fund" let me know:)
Maybe VTG becoming too big in the portfolio at that price , they did buy sub 25 cents .Might be forced due to cap on stake size , or could be lesson learnt on being a major shareholder in a small cap .I say feed the dogs when they are barking ....
My periodic analysis shows:
If you do a NZ Investment funds review for all funds over $10 using fund finder search on the www.morningstar.co.nz site by 6 month % performance then PieFunds have three funds in the top 9 .
AMP have three funds in the top 9 and Niko, PPS and One Answer have one each.
AMP is 1st, 2nd and 4th.
PieFunds is 3rd, 7th and 9th
Note that PieFunds have a total of just four funds and AMP have 33 funds.
AMP performance over 6 months ranges from their top fund at 17.06% to the low of 1.77%.
PieFunds range is from 14.3% to 4.12% for their four funds.
The 4.12% is for the new global fund with a higher than usual cash component as it invests over time...
Selecting a suitable fund from the PieFund range using a dart gives a high % of being on the right side as there are just 4 segments on the PieFunds fund selector dartboard I have drawn below.
Attachment 6448
Hi Homzen,
Thanks for your reply and in particular "Finally, the performance data on Morningstar is to the 30th September, so it doesn't include the impact of Titan on Pie's numbers".
For me this is a revelation.
I have always assumed that Morningstar data would update weekly and therefore be up to date as at 31 October 2014.
I expected the performance % shown would include recent TTN ASX announcements eg 15 September 2014 (Astra Drilling acquisition) no change to EBITA at $21M and 2 October 2014 RCH contracts impact EBIT now $10 to $12M.
Thanks
yeh I said with the exception of one fund ...which is obviously the fund that existed during 2008
very recent effectively means 'one market cycle'
I do accept the results look good but my point is they haven't really been tested through downturns or even long stagnant phases.
I just checked the 2014 reports and accounts. You can find these on the Companies Office website, look under 'Search Other Registers' the look for Unit Trusts, and search on Pie Australasian Dividend Fund.
Hedge fund pricing is 2 and 20, though 1.5 and 15 is getting close. I assume the performance fee only cuts in above the index return so not as bad as a hedge fund.
Not sure where your 20% of capital comment comes from?
Edit: the global is 1 and 10 but I assume there are also additional fees by the funds they invest in.
Hi KW,
The fee structures are:
Australasian Growth, Dividend and Emerging Companies Funds: 1.5% p.a plus 15% performance fee on all gains (subject to high water mark).
Global Small Companies Fund: 1% p.a. (plus underlying managers fees as this is a fund of funds, including full fees on investments into Pie's own funds) plus 10% performance fee on all gains (subject to high water mark).
Pie Chairmans Fund: $50K per annum (this is on the whole fund, not per investor), plus Pie's normal fund fees. So if the Chairman's Fund raises $5m, the fee is 1% p.a., plus 1%-1.5% p.a. and 10% -15% performance fees on the underlying funds (plus underlying manager fees on the Global Fund, including fees on investments into Pie's own funds).
Hope that's clear!
KW , I have been to a couple of investor meetings with PIE. In particular Mike the CEO . I personally think you might be being a little unfair on him / PIE . I understand he has no direct shareholdings ....all money in the market is in his funds. All staff are invested in the funds . Closing the funds at 50 Mio , does not look like someone who is just after fees. I appreciate other posters have pointed out that he has taken on some more money , plus reinvestments. However the flood gates are not open .Seems like the great knocking machine is having a bit of a go here. One f up ( and we all have them ) and the wolves are at the door.
He set this company up , and I think it is on their website as he was not happy with the way other fund managers operated .....
DISC : I hold a number of the funds , as part of my portfolio .( very happy with the performance)
Growth fund 251% return since inception; 2007; 7.7% ytd.
Aust Div fund 102% since inception ,2011 10.3% ytd
Pie emerging Australasian 82.4% since inception 2013 ytd 13%
Pie Global 10.4% since inception 2013 7.6% ytd still sitting on some cash
Not in their list of substantial holdings so heres hoping.Sold INA as well.
In regard to the global fund .I would imagine only a small % was invested Sept/Dec 31 so it was probably really a Global "cash fund" as opposed to global small co's . They were still trying to appoint managers for it . Anyway i am not going to sit here all day and wonder/ try and defend I don't have any concerns at this stage with them as a manager of my money . . When I have had a problem I have called, emailed and he has responded immediately. So if you are an investor I would advise you do the same if you have an issue with it .
I expect one PieFunds fund, the Australasian Dividend Fund, will not be affected as I see AZV doesn't pay a dividend so I assume AZV will not be in the ADF portfolio.
Growth fund 251% return since inception; 2007; 7.7% ytd. Averaged out say 7 complete years =re 36 %per annum ;FANTASTIC
Aust Div fund 102% since inception ,2011 10.3% ytd Averaged out say 3 complete years= 34% per annum AWESOME
Pie emerging Australasian 82.4% since inception 2013 ytd 13% Averaged out say 2 years = re 41 % SHOW ME BETTER!
Certainly better than my own returns .
Longer term I'm thinking the returns will drop as i guess they prob have already from the first year or so.But this simplistic averaging is fine by me ; kudos to Mike and management.As part of my diversified portfolio ; mainly NZ and Aus stocks with some bonds etc I'm so happy that i took a friends advice and bought in.
Pie Global 10.4% since inception 2013 7.6% ytd still sitting on some cash Don't hold this one atp.
Not sure what the motive is from a few posters; proof is in the PIE:t_up:
Remember at one stage an offer was made that if you invested in the global fund you were able to invest some in the earlier funds. That would account for some inflow to those funds.
Missed out on the 1st fund but hold the next three. Offered the Chairman's fund but decided against it as decided I had enough invested there. Also a little concerned at possible doubling of fees with a fund of funds arrangement. Or are non Chairman Fund investors paying the total fees from the individual funds being covered.
Happy as an investor.
KW I don't agree.I see this as a good balance to my own investing .You say you are surprised by their investment decisions . However even the Buff makes mistakes ...it's impossible to sell them all at the top ......Everyone makes mistakes, but surely their performance speaks volumes . Honestly how many people would put their hand up and say they can beat them ? Looking at the sharetrader ASX comp not many ..........
I have invested money in the market for my family as an education fund . The admin etc was a bit of a nightmare, investing it with PIE funds has simplified it and been very profitable.
Mike will probably have a good chuckle at this thread when he finishes his morning swim in his pool of gold coins.
I believe many professionals/high net worth people invest through PIE for the great returns and quality of the funds one at least has a five star rating.Some of them are too busy to have time for research etc.
I know something about investing and i know i have areas of weakness too so PIE is a great way of diversifying mitigating and making up for some of my mistakes; Gold stocks being one of them at this moment in time.Their time will come but at an opportunity cost :(
As you yourself say KW anything can happen in a month or so esp with small caps so PIE selling something does not mean they are doing a pump/dump on us small retail investors, something has intrinsically changed in their investment.
I know a lot of savvy investors keep up with what PIE and The Boat Fund etc are buying into (looks like you too ehh:)
I suppose its natural you set the threshold/bar as high as what you say you achieve your self ; you're in a league on your own and you share lots of great advice from hard earned experience.
The funds are soft closed I believe if they continue to take funds in.
Good markets since end 2008 make most of us look like gurus, when the party ends we will see the real gurus! quote by bull
Hi KW, all fund returns are net of fees (annual and performance).
In a P.I.E. (as in Portfolio Investment Entity, not the fund manager), there is no CGT payable either within the fund or on sale of the units. Income (i.e. dividends) is taxed but at reduced rates compared with normal PAYE rates (e.g. the top rate in a PIE is 28%) and is paid direct from the fund to the IRD via cancellation/sale of units.
Thanks for your post's the homzen. I would be surprised (pleasantly) if they could keep similar performance up. When it was as you describe above ,small , simple low cost structure and more nimble ; it was kinda perfectly formed but alas nothing stays the same. Really happy to hold for now.
From their latest slice of PIE
"Prior to Titan’s downgrade, Pie had been reducing,and its weighting in the funds had halved from12 months earlier. It was no longer a top 5 stockin Growth and Dividend and our plan was tohave exited by March 2015. In recent times I’d hadgrowing concerns about the robustness of theirbusiness model. That said, the team clearly gotthis one wrong and for that I will admit we madea mistake. "
From their latest slice of PIE
"Prior to Titan’s downgrade, Pie had been reducing,and its weighting in the funds had halved from12 months earlier. It was no longer a top 5 stockin Growth and Dividend and our plan was tohave exited by March 2015. In recent times I’d hadgrowing concerns about the robustness of theirbusiness model. That said, the team clearly gotthis one wrong and for that I will admit we madea mistake. "
ihave no need or interest in doing that but maybe you do:)
What happened with TTN was the number of shares held reduced by 7% in the 12 months prior to the profit warning on 2nd October.
The performance numbers to 31 October are now available from Morningstar.
I'm not sure how 12 month rolling numbers are misleading. I think they're useful. Calendar year returns don't help an investor see what their own returns have been, whereas rolling 12 month/3 year/5 year numbers give a better idea, because at least once a year you see these numbers from the month you invested. The vast majority of managers show rolling numbers rather than calendar year returns.
They usually invest in the small end of small caps (typically up to $300m market cap) and concentrated (max. 15 stocks per fund for the Australasian funds). The Dividend Fund is small cap equities too, just ones that pay dividends.
The Global Small Cap Fund is a global small cap fund of funds, but they manage the Australasian allocation both direct and via their own funds.
They can go to 100% cash in all funds.
Pie Funds December newsletter just out.
According to the Sub notices filed by Pie Funds, since August 2014 Pie Funds has reduced its stake in RHP from 8.31% to below 5%, with the last sub notice being issued on 7th October.
yes definately a pattern from what ya say, must need some mugs to bid the price up to sell into a?
interesting to see they bought dil for USD exposure. But hard to tell what these guys are really up to.
Latest Morningstar results are out (to 30 Nov).
Oh well, I can recommend the Devonport Chocolate freebies that arrived from Pie for Christmas... :)
I think what you calculate might just be short-term fluctuations. The earliest I could get back to was the April Newsletter and, by my calculations, I think there were more fund units held then than in November, so the increase in December may have been replacement business for those that investors got the jitters in September/October?
Still think it is a brave move trying to operate a capped boutique fund in a tough space and that Mike deserves some respect for what he has achieved. I'm certainly happy with my investments and relaxed about keeping money with them through what must have been a disappointing year for them.
As for the newsletter timing versus the date of their actions, perhaps we could also assume that Pie Funds is writing the newsletters to entertain, educate and provide a level of connectedness with the investors in their funds, NOT writing the newsletters as a share-tipping service?
Well, I guess you would know better than anybody on here what the challenges are operating in this space.
1. Don't take new funds to keep the boutique approach = risk a sudden redemption run and forced to sell at lows. Answer - take in more cash when it is available and keep some aside for redemptions + attempt to ensure there is a waiting list for units when a current holder wants out.
2. Trade in the small/micro-cap space to get high returns = risk of having to hold large positions with associated liquidity risks and the inevitable difficulty in managing the confounding factors of time, price and market sentiment. Should you manage this for best long-term gain or least short-term volatility? No right answer.
3. Keep investors confidence through disclosure = run the risk of further confounding your own trades or being judged as misleading. Or of competitors using it against you - particular since the larger ones could delight in pushing your NAV around with their pocket money and undermining the very confidence you wish to create. No right answer.
4. Keep the fund small = costs have to be high relative to FUM and therefore the fund is going to look a shocker if the comparison is all about fees. Answer = the proof of the pudding is in the eating - and the long-term return to the investors matters more. (Maybe some investors here should try adding up their time cost and brokerage and trying to calculate the effective "fees" on their own portfolios).
Only the naive would expect Pie to be able to keep churning out the historic returns with an increasing FUM - and most of that increase comes from growth, not new investors - but it doesn't mean they can't still be a good investment for the future or should be considered "dodgy" in the way you seem to imply.
Looking forward to your analysis on MINT, the homzen. :)
I'm certainly not implying anyone is 'dodgy'.
The homzen.
Have you ever worked for Pie Funds.?
Are you anyway connected with any Fund manager?
Disclosure.I enjoy reading The Pie Fund newsletter.They follow small cap companies I also follow.I find their commentaries refreshingly honest.
Touche.....The question i was asking....myself;)
Funny that. Usually you come out swinging for PIE and I might have wondered if you were on the payroll. I wonder why there is query of a poster's work rather than the points being made. It seems to me if people were to disclose their employer by name/ identify themselves this site would dry up and I suspect many would be embarrassed to associate their names to their boasts and trivia.
Their newsletters are fantastic, I actually have found a number of companies I wasn't aware of which once I researched I have bought into. Look forward to getting their updates monthly!
I find it refreshing to have someone limit his field--much more informative than someone who feels qualified to scatter him/her/it self all over the site! If you have found the posts informative it won't help anyone if Percy's question shuts him up!
We're all anonymous here.
There are a couple of things about piefunds that make them a little different from the average fund manager:
1. All employees invest in their own funds
2. They get performance fees. So they are motivated to outperform.
3. But more importantly, I think Mike and his research staff are passionate stock pickers. The fact that they run a Fund Management business is probably secondary. Their prime motivation would be to out pick their peers.
Their pump and dump approach is to the benefit of their investors. They have no responsibility to the investing public whose choose to read their newsletter. The newsletter is to inform their investors.