Labour / NZ First Government

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

Not all that different to what your party proposed.

“Pre-election, National said it would increase the 18 week paid entitlement to 22 weeks”

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Arguably, one reason National got the boot was because they were getting too good at spending other people's money. Labour is sure to outspend them no matter what.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

Not all that different to what your party proposed.

“Pre-election, National said it would increase the 18 week paid entitlement to 22 weeks”

Labour is set to do that next year but the increase to 26 weeks does not happen until 2020. I think thats an acceptable time frame and probably one National would have eventually adopted themselves.

As the article states, we currently have one of the lowest entitlements in the OECD. It is an improvement that has long been overdue.

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Personally I don't think there should be any parental leave. People should plan their life to pay for kids if that's what they wish to have. Just like buying a car or a house. Why should we all contribute. Personal responsibility..

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Originally Posted by minimoke

Arguably, one reason National got the boot was because they were getting too good at spending other people's money. Labour is sure to outspend them no matter what.

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The Government (regardless of which party) is in the business of spending “other people’s money.” Thats how it works. You are right in expecting that Labour will probably outspend National - in some areas. Parental leave being one of them. I’m fine with that. National spent a huge amount of money restructuring a well known Ministry, which shall remain nameless. I used to work for said Ministry and over the 8 years I was there theychased their tail round in circles, going from one episode of restructuring to the next, each round of restructuring costing the tax payer millions of dollars (don’t even get me started on the exorbitant payments to so-called consultants). Never really listening to the people working on the coal face who knew better than anybody what was wrong (and what was right) with the organisation. And this was only one government department. They did the same thing with several others and achieved zilch.

I might be wrong but I suspect you are a diehard National supporter who votes National every election because thats what you’ve always done. Apologies if I am wrong about that, but that kind of voting is one of the things wrong with this country. The fact that the majority of voters voted for a party other than National was a vote for change. People now need to suck it up and give the new government a chance to prove themselves. Instead of National voters/supporters being the voice of doom, how about just letting it all pan out for a bit before reserving judgement.

I like this idea of doubling the number of Labour Inspectors

That’ll sort out the delinquent horrible employers who don’t do things properly.





bugger - I’ve misplaced a month of employee tinesheets. Hope the business who I do the books pro bona doesn’t get caught out by one of these new inspectors and heavily fined.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

The Government (regardless of which party) is in the business of spending “other people’s money.” Thats how it works. You are right in expecting that Labour will probably outspend National

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Actually no - though I appreciate as a government public servant you might think that way. The government is in the business of protecting the lives and liberties of its citizens. That of course takes money to do which is rightfully extracted from those citizens.

To that list i can concede it is also there to provide a hand up for those that cant help themselves in times of need. And again it takes some of its citizens money to achieve that as well.

And in some case where economic economy of scale makes sense government may play a part in other activities.

Government is not in the business of procreation or domestic subsidies - or at least it shouldn't be.

The only reason it strays from its core responsibilities is self interest - that is to use other peoples money to win and secure votes.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

I might be wrong but I suspect you are a diehard National supporter who votes National every election because thats what you’ve always done. Apologies if I am wrong about that, but that kind of voting is one of the things wrong with this country.

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Its that kind of wooly thinking that makes us tax payers shudder every time we see some of our hard earnt money disappear into government departments - we just know we aren't going to get good value.

Firstly, I no longer work for the government department in question, and will hopefully never have to work for another one.

Secondly, when I said governments are in the business of “spending other people’s money” I was referring to the fact that you and I pay taxes and have an expectation that the government of the day will use that money wisely to provide us with quality education and health services, a social welfare service to assist those who (as you said) need a hand from time to time, and an infrastructure in terms of reading, essential services etc. Pretty much on the same page as you in that respect. I’m not going to bother trying to explain the huge benefits of the parental leave entitlement because I seriously doubt you are interested. Let’s just agree to disagree on that one.

Finally, your closing comment about my “wooly thinking” was unjustified. I apologised in advance if my assumption about your voting was incorrect. I based that assumption on the comments you have made during this discussion and on the many discussions I have had with staunch National supporters who have always voted National without ever questioning why they do that. My own son is one such voter. He votes National because he works in farming and “farmers always vote National.”

Oh, and by the way, the government departments that cause you to shudder, have been run for the past 9 years by the National government. The one that can do no wrong. Funny that. Why do you think I left.

It's a terrible conundrum to be a business owner and balance the hiring decisions between honest diversity, even choosing the best young lady for the job and whether you be paying that young lady for half a year off work, and the additional salary for the backfill hire, when she has a baby.

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Originally Posted by Baa_Baa

It's a terrible conundrum to be a business owner and balance the hiring decisions between honest diversity, even choosing the best young lady for the job and whether you be paying that young lady for half a year off work, and the additional salary for the backfill hire, when she has a baby.

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I get it. There is no easy answer. But at the same time I think the “if you can’t afford to have kids you shouldn’t have them” argument, is oversimplifying things. For most low and middle income earners the reality is if they wait until they can afford to have kids, they would never have them. At the same time, we need a certain level of population growth. So, either we are a nation where only the rich have babies, or we face the fact that we as a country need to be willing to offer some financial support to parents along the way. As a mother of four now grown children I was fortunate to be raising them at a time when we could afford to live off one income, so I was able to be at home and focus on raising our children. That is no longer the norm.

I’m not saying this government will get it all right. No government would. But I think they are smarter than many believe, and I think we have every reason to feel optimistic. Rome wasn’t built in a day however so lets just see how things pan out over the next 6 months before writing them off.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

I get it. There is no easy answer. But at the same time I think the “if you can’t afford to have kids you shouldn’t have them” argument, is oversimplifying things.

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No, not really. It is as simple as that. If people don't get that the first responsibility of a parent is to look after your child then so many other lessons will be lost

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

For most low and middle income earners the reality is if they wait until they can afford to have kids, they would never have them.

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Having children is a privilege not a right. To enjoy that privilege sometimes sacrifices may need t0 be made. And perhaps some people (or at least their offspring) are better off not reproducing. (i wont even go into the argument of limited families depending on socio-economic status)

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

At the same time, we need a certain level of population growth.

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Do we? Really!. People cant argue the need to take money off us to prevent global warming on one hand and then take money off us to keep the population growing on the other. That just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

So, either we are a nation where only the rich have babies, or we face the fact that we as a country need to be willing to offer some financial support to parents along the way.

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You are self limiting your argument by suggesting only the rich will have children. It is always possible for others to have and raise families - it just needs to be within their means.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

As a mother of four now grown children I was fortunate to be raising them at a time when we could afford to live off one income, so I was able to be at home and focus on raising our children. That is no longer the norm.

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Mortgage/interest rates, inflation and unemployment rates are all at historic levels. This is as good as it gets.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

I’m not saying this government will get it all right. No government would. But I think they are smarter than many believe, and I think we have every reason to feel optimistic. Rome wasn’t built in a day however so lets just see how things pan out over the next 6 months before writing them off.

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It is far too early in this governments cycle to even think that they might be smart - only time will tell

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Originally Posted by Baa_Baa

It's a terrible conundrum to be a business owner and balance the hiring decisions between honest diversity, even choosing the best young lady for the job and whether you be paying that young lady for half a year off work, and the additional salary for the backfill hire, when she has a baby.

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Don't worry. Equity legislation will come that will require you to report on your gender / pay balance and if the numbers don't suit you can expect a visit from an Inspector.

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

The fact that the majority of voters voted for a party other than National was a vote for change.

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justakiwi this is a ridiculous statement. That means every single election is a "vote for change" in your books as we have never (and probably never will) had a party gain more than 50% of the popular vote under MMP !

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

I was referring to the fact that you and I pay taxes and have an expectation that the government of the day will use that money wisely

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You have me confused for another poster - I have no (that is zero) expectation that a government will use my money wisely. Instead I think it will go to their "pet projects"

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Originally Posted by justakiwi

Oh, and by the way, the government departments that cause you to shudder, have been run for the past 9 years by the National government. The one that can do no wrong. Funny that. Why do you think I left.

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I have no idea.

More excellent wise money spending ideas from our Government. First year tertiary education free - for Australians!

Time for me to bow out of this “discussion”, not because I feel I am beaten but because I realise that these kinds of debates, especially political, really achieve nothing. They also create stress that serves no good purpose. Besides which its past my bedtime. In the words of Douglas Adams “So long and thanks for all the fish.” :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

The old ones are always the best!