Harmoney

[Cool Bear]

You can get the individual charge off dates for each loan in the report section. It is time consuming but I transcribe the charge off dates for all the loans charged off in each month at the end of the month into a spreedsheet. I will work on a graph later and post it here.

This is my chart as promised. I have been in for just over 39 months (so in my 40th month). The chart shows that most of my charge offs are after 8 months (i.e. in its 9th month). So if you are in for only 1 year and assuming you invested gradually, your average age of your loans is only 6 or 7 months. So your charge off will not be that much yet.

[humvee]

This is my chart as promised. I have been in for just over 39 months (so in my 40th month). The chart shows that most of my charge offs are after 8 months (i.e. in its 9th month). So if you are in for only 1 year and assuming you invested gradually, your average age of your loans is only 6 or 7 months. So your charge off will not be that much yet.

I see the Charge off date in the web page now, Why can they not just include that in their data export ?

Ive got 420 Charged off and sold loans so it would take along time to do all of these manually

[Cool Bear]

I see the Charge off date in the web page now, Why can they not just include that in their data export ?

Ive got 420 Charged off and sold loans so it would take along time to do all of these manually

Yes, investing in Harmoney does take more time than other investments. But alot of it is to get information that is good to know, not all essential.

I used to update my main spreadsheet every week but now only once a month.

More on my 377 defaults in the chart above, the average is 13.26 months from date of loan and that will grow much more the longer I am in. At the moment, I am in for only 39.1 months and my oldest is 36.8 months.

The median is 11.81 months and I expect this to eventually settle at just about 12 months.

[bung5]

Wow I had a loan written off and now I see 100% of it has been recoverd. Great success !

[beacon]

The current approx. 25%/75% retail/wholesale volume split means the loans we are getting are all the loans that we will get. The only way to increase loans to retail, at that split ratio, is to increase the total number of loans, which just don't seem to be available at the moment.

Let us say there are 4 loans on the market. In separate markets, retails only see 1 loan, wholesalers see only 3 - both lose. Alundracloud proposed Harmoney went back to its previous practise (my understanding) of listing all 4 on retail market first, some of which came through autolend, giving retail some time to peruse and buy them before they all unfilled portions got filled at various times (like 3pm) during the day by wholsesale. In that scenario, yes some loans were filled by retail more than 25%, but both markets had more loan volume to participate in. Thus increasing choice/diversification for both.

Allowing the retail market to cherry-pick all loans before they go to wholesale would be unfair on the wholesale lenders, who already clearly take on the lower end of the loans. i.e. average retail RAR is around 12.2% vs average wholesale RAR around 9%.

Unfair? This is P2P space. No wholesaler should be here by definition. While the borrowers should be grateful the wholesalers fill them here which they would not necessarily have done in traditional banking space, and the lenders should be grateful that wholesalers ensure more loans get filled/ get filled quicker, wholesalers should be grateful they are allowed to be in this space at all. The lending requirements are much more stringent for them in their own space. Surely, TSB et al have no cause to cry unfair when they are making a 9+% return to date on diversified lending without a dollar spent on infrastructure. Wholesalers cherry pick too through filters, albeit in a more limited way than retail, but shouldn't it be like this anyway in this asset class? At least they have a table here. The small guy doesn't even get to sit at the high tables...

they appear to have been 'protecting' retailers to some degree, hence the higher average RAR of retail lenders.

Appearances can mislead. Harmoney is a business, and they do what is viable. Without retailers, they wouldn't be in the P2P space at all. It should be in their best interest to arm investors with better information to increase their RoI, but they hide behind 'can't advice'. It should be in their best interest to help answer investor queries promptly at least about book-keeping and data reporting anomalies but one has only to read this thread to see how much lender angst and concern has been aired in more than 200 of those pages. Most of the retail lenders, including me, are still here because they have limited alternative investment choices, but a hope that with time spent here to pick loans individually there is a fair chance that they can reduce risk and lift their RAR here. In reality, in the first few years, they are really getting paid for their time, without which they will have a RAR no better than the wholesalers (who by the way, I believe spend no time loan picking).


I think Harmoney will benefit immensely if they list all loans on retail market first, and can sort out their bookkeeping and data reporting errors. Interest credited to account gets reduced the next day, defaults are added to default columns in data months after the loan has been paid off, paid off loans are still shown as current months after outstanding principal becomes 0, there are gaps/errors in loan information when they are listed, filters could be improved still, and I doubt their payment protect calculations make sense to any more than 1% of their lenders. They certainly don't balance in my books, so I hope their auditors are paying special attention to payment protect.

[myles]

I know some won't agree, but I think the definition of Peer to Peer Lending is not what some think it is.

Peer to Peer Lending is more about doing away with the middle man i.e. the Bank. (Same as P2P file sharing - doing away with the central server)

All the meaningful definitions of Peer to Peer Lending that I have seen, describe a Peer as an individual or business (yes typically a small business, but businesses none-the-less). Harmoney's model, in my view, is still Peer to Peer, it just includes some very large business peers as investors. Quite a few of the borrowers are businesses, possibly not all small, depending on your definition.

There are some platforms that are more focused on the individual/small business only model, but from my experience they are very difficult to invest in and have significantly less loan volume. It has been suggested that some of these platforms are considering allowing 'larger' investors in to 'grow' their business model.

I think it is fairly obvious that Harmoney would not be the size that it is without Wholesale investors.

Like it or not, Harmoney's model is working for Harmoney, borrowers and and most investors.

[beacon]

Peer to Peer Lending is more about doing away with the middle man i.e. the Bank.

I agree. And TSB is a Bank! Mind you, I have no problem with Banks playing here (see my previous post), so long as they do not disadvantage the native players in the P2P space. At 85% wholesale, especially when retail investors are complaining about the lack of loans and fall in loan quality, Harmoney is really not in the P2P space. P2P was supposed to disrupt the banking industry to the advantage of small players on either side of the middleman. That advantage is all but gone for retail investors (in an environment of diminishing investment returns and investment options in the country) when Harmoney becomes wholesale funded to such a large extent.

There are some platforms that are more focused on the individual/small business only model, but from my experience they are very difficult to invest in and have significantly less loan volume. It has been suggested that some of these platforms are considering allowing 'larger' investors in to 'grow' their business model.

I think it is fairly obvious that Harmoney would not be the size that it is without Wholesale investors.

Agree. I welcome wholesale funders to come and help grow this alternative industry through all platforms mulling their involvement, so long as they do not disadvantage their smaller peers, who by the way have no entry in the lending sector otherwise...

Like it or not, Harmoney's model is working for Harmoney, borrowers and and most investors.

Ignorance is bliss. Harmoney (and all P2P platforms) have a promising role to play in our society, and profit should not blindside us into letting them become mere fronts for big institutions. This industry should strive to become what it could be. A booster to all factions of local economy from the grassroots up. And that includes the small guys...

[beacon]

There are some platforms that are more focused on the individual/small business only model, but from my experience they are very difficult to invest in.

Agree. Shows more unsatisfied small investor demand. And it would become even more difficult for the small guy to invest in them if the big institutions started sweeping away in bulk what little was out there currently...

[myles]

Twisting my word a bit: "middle man i.e. the Bank.", is nothing like TSB investing as a peer.

There is no such thing as a 'native player' - nothing stopping an individual or small business becoming a wholesale investor (provided they have whatever the minimum buy in is?) - a group of peers could do it...but the returns are currently not as good. Same goes for a 'wholesale' type business investing as an individual - but paying someone to invest in loans or rely on auto-invest would likely have a poorer outcome.

What any borrower does with the money/where any investor gets the money, has little to do with it. Nothing stopping me taking out a loan from a bank and investing it in Harmoney... Nothing stopping me taking out a loan with Harmoney and investing it in a bank... For that matter, nothing stopping me taking out a loan with Harmoney and reinvesting it in Harmoney (Money for nothing - playing in the background).

The traditional savings process in a Bank *is* a form of lending i.e. you give the bank your money, they invest (lend) it however they see fit, they give you pittance back (middle man takes too much).

The only way you will dictate terms of a P2P business is to create one yourself, or convince borrowers to demand non-wholesale peers - neither, I suspect, is likely to happen. Borrowers already have that option with other platforms (though they may not know it?).

Harmoney, as far as I can tell, are still in the red, so need to make some headway to be around for the longer term - wholesale lenders contribute to that.

The most likely mechanism to attract more loans is to reduce interest rates - as an investor, that's not what I want to see...

[beacon]

nothing stopping an individual or small business becoming a wholesale investor (provided they have whatever the minimum buy in is?) -

There are millions of reasons (dollars) stopping the small guy from becoming a wholesaler. And then there's Harmoney. Try calling them about it Myles.