Black Monday

[Joshuatree]

Have appreciated your contrary and big picture posts Bull.My memory and tech skill set isn't up to owning bitcoin directly,sounds like a dumb question but are there any/many listed companies that invest in bitcoin etc?

[Snoopy]

Programmable Digital Currencies Are Coming - Here's What That Means

This Fed-enabled digital dollar will also be designed with an ability to bypass the banking system

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/prog...ans-2020-08-18

Interesting new take on Bitcoin, to be positioned as the digital currency 'outside of the system' while the government controls their own digital currency and through it their citizens.

There are a few leaps of logic though, that I don't follow.

Why would any government force everyone to use a digital currency to 'control' you when they can effectively do that already? Tax is already deducted from bank accounts. If you refuse to pay your tax, the IRD can already go into your bank account and seize the money they consider they are owed. The government can already do all the other things mentioned in that article. That means distribute money based on income level, employment status, and geographical location. There are already tax payments at the point of sale (GST). Loan to value ratio lending is already done by the current system. There is nothing in that article that isn't already being done by the existing FIAT currency system. So in that policy sense the whole argument for a separate government mandated digital currency falls flat.

EFTPOS is already 'spying' on all transactions. So a simple police warrant for your bank and mobile phone records will give a very complete picture of your movements. Short of speeding up transactions, which will mean less chance for the government to halt illegal transactions, I can't see any benefit in going to a mandated digital currency, except that it will be less trusted by some members of the public.

Ahah, you say! That is the perfect trigger to turbocharge Bitcoin. The problem with that is that if you have a Bitcoin account you would be crazy to make your physical purchases with that, if you considered it was very likely to go up in value. Every such transaction you made would be an almost certain compounding future loss through loss of investment opportunity. The only way Bitcoin could come into common use as an 'everyday purchasing tool' is if it stabalised in value. And if that happened an 'investment' in Bitcoin would never make the investor any money. The only way I can see Bitcoin stabilising is if it crashed in value, completely wiping out any chance of any future gains for investors. Such a crash would have to be severe and prolonged to get rid of the investment element from Bitcoin. If Bitcoin is to succeed as an 'outside of the system currency' it will have to lose at least 95% of its value and stay down. And because the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is zero, there is nothing to stop this happening. To satisfy the true Bitcoin believers tin a way that that will allow Bitcoin to fulfil its destiny, then such an event must occur. It is only a matter of when.

The old limited supply and demand argument doesn't hold water with Bitcoin either. Yes there is a limited supply of Bitcoin. But there is an unlimited supply of alternative cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin has no intrinsic advantage over an unlimited number of digital competitors. So the illusion of 'limited supply' facing an 'unlimited rising demand' is just that. Ultimately the value of an investment is determined by the discounted value of all its generated future cashflows. For all digital currencies the summed value of their future generated cashflows (of which there aren't any) is zero. That is where the investment value of all digital currencies is ultimately heading. That doesn't mean the value of Bitcoin and other digital currencies won't go up in the short term. But if you are an 'investor' in digital currencies, don't leave it too late to get off this particular investment bus.

SNOOPY

[bull....]

Have appreciated your contrary and big picture posts Bull.My memory and tech skill set isn't up to owning bitcoin directly,sounds like a dumb question but are there any/many listed companies that invest in bitcoin etc?

OTC market in the US is where you will find many. there are some crypto funds that invest in a basket of crypto's as well. naturally crypto would be positioned in the speculative part of your portfolio

[winner69]

ASX off to great start to the year

Good sign for us

[causecelebre]

Have appreciated your contrary and big picture posts Bull.My memory and tech skill set isn't up to owning bitcoin directly,sounds like a dumb question but are there any/many listed companies that invest in bitcoin etc?

https://etfdb.com/themes/blockchain-etfs/

[Joshuatree]

Thanks. I also saw on CNBC this morn that an actual Bitcoin ETF is on the way ,maybe this year as it goes through all the regulatory requirements.

[causecelebre]

Thanks. I also saw on CNBC this morn that an actual Bitcoin ETF is on the way ,maybe this year as it goes through all the regulatory requirements.

There has been attempts for Bitcoin ETF for years. Recent changes in the SEC and greater institutional involvement may see one come up. There are plenty of derivative instrument's that can be settled in fiat avail if you don't want to physically hold

[bull....]

NZD up strong again 74c looks like next resistance.

dont forget the georgia senate election results might be around 1pm nz time may have an effect on markets

[Leftfield]

NZD up strong again 74c looks like next resistance.

dont forget the georgia senate election results might be around 1pm nz time may have an effect on markets

Indeed.... interesting week in the USA.

[Timesurfer]

Interesting new take on Bitcoin, to be positioned as the digital currency 'outside of the system' while the government controls their own digital currency and through it their citizens.

There are a few leaps of logic though, that I don't follow.

Why would any government force everyone to use a digital currency to 'control' you when they can effectively do that already? Tax is already deducted from bank accounts. If you refuse to pay your tax, the IRD can already go into your bank account and seize the money they consider they are owed. The government can already do all the other things mentioned in that article. That means distribute money based on income level, employment status, and geographical location. There are already tax payments at the point of sale (GST). Loan to value ratio lending is already done by the current system. There is nothing in that article that isn't already being done by the existing FIAT currency system. So in that policy sense the whole argument for a separate government mandated digital currency falls flat.

EFTPOS is already 'spying' on all transactions. So a simple police warrant for your bank and mobile phone records will give a very complete picture of your movements. Short of speeding up transactions, which will mean less chance for the government to halt illegal transactions, I can't see any benefit in going to a mandated digital currency, except that it will be less trusted by some members of the public.

SNOOPY

I believe you will find that there is still a significant amount of trade being conducted for cash.
No need to legalize dope to cash in on the tax if you switch to digitial currency.
Money laundering will be significantly more difficult prospect.
Federal systems finally woke up to the threat that Bitcoin and the likes of Zuckerberg, Bezos, and co are if they get established as a global currency. No control, no clipping of the ticket as money moves between borders.
I think you will find the digital war will heat up over the next 12 months as muscles are flexed.

(Not currently a player .. just watching with interest)