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  1. #21
    percy
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    I have just read the result announcement.It reads very well.
    Looks as though you are "well positioned."

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major von Tempsky View Post
    Agreed, but I have a feeling there won't be any dividends until they have exhausted using previous tax losses to maximise the rate of growth. Maybe 3 years...
    I think they have $8 mil in tax losses, quite a handy sum now that they are in profit !

  3. #23
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    You know when you go into Direct Broking, click on your watch list, then click on GFL (in blue) it then takes you into Quotes. If you then click on the little triangular thing ito gives you options of Quotes, blah blah, Depth, blah blah and lastly Reuters. The question is, the Reuters reports on GFL are 6 months plus out of date, when are they going to update them?

  4. #24
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  5. #25
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    7/1 cons ann today and poised for sustainable growth in my book.
    Only finance company from the GFC to survive and "do the right thing by all stake holders".

  6. #26
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Default Be Careful

    Quote Originally Posted by whatsup View Post
    7/1 cons ann today and poised for sustainable growth in my book.
    Only finance company from the GFC to survive and "do the right thing by all stake holders".
    Be VERY careful folks, this statement is very disingenuous. Some facts to consider
    1. Many finance companies survived the GFC.
    2.. First ranking debenture holders had to take 15% of their debenture value as shares at circa 35 cents per share, now worth a mere fraction of that.
    3. Millions of dollars was invested in unsecured subordinated notes and these investors were forced to take close to half of the value of their investment in shares at circa 35 cps, now only worth a fraction of that so have taken a very serious haircut.
    4. The company has an extremely chequered history and has made some very interesting calls on what loans are bad, doubtful and restructured in the past.
    5. I know for a fact that they used to use the old cleanse the balance sheet just before balance date by selling a lot of horribly overdue loans into their side company Stellar Collection at full face value rather than taking an appropriate write-off on those loans as a means of artificially propping up the profitability / minimising losses to paint a far more rosy picture of their financial performance than what would otherwise have been the case.

    I can't help wondering if they use the same old tricks to inappropriately avoid losses on bad / doubtful debts these days ? Does a leopard change its spots or a Tiger change its stripes ?.
    I see David OConnell was in charge back then and still is. Hmmm

    I put a LOT of stock on a companies track record in terms of assessing the credibility of management and the credibility of their "reported results". When looking at a companies track record I assess their entire track record not just the last year or two. Easy to manipulate one or two years financial results...anyone remember how Fay Richwhite manipulated the profit of Tranz Rail by doing grossly insufficient maintenance on the railway lines ?

    Reported results for bank and finance companies involved a whole lot of subjective assessment of loans in terms of what's overdue, past due, doubtful and truly bad debt and Geveva finance's track record in this subjective process is something investors might like to consider.
    Disc: Don't own, not to be considered professional advice or a recommendation, DYOR)
    Last edited by Beagle; 20-06-2016 at 10:18 AM.

  7. #27
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    A statement by Roger that is somewhat disingenuous in itself.
    David O'Connell was called in to turnaround the Farmers Finance Co before the GFC (Global Financial Crisis) which he succeeded in doing brilliantly which is why he was head-hunted to do the same for Geneva. Despite the impression given by Roger, David O'C is a relative newcomer to Geneva, basically post GFC. Before GFC there were 53 Finance Companies in NZ, now there are a handful who have survived 6? 7? And a few more who made compacts with their investors involving severe haircuts.

    Why did nearly 50 NZ Finance companies go down? Fairly simple, not malevolent black magic. Finance Companies borrowed from investors and the public and had very high gearings by the nature of the industry. They depended on being able to refinance their borrowings from investors and the public when they became due and for decades they did this. Come GFC and investors and the public took fright and refused to refinance NZ's Finance Co's and Boom, down they went like a set of dominoes except for the odd one owned/partly owned by supportive banks while Geneva made a compromise with it's investors which necessarily involved a heavy haircut for all. That is all now history except for Roger who is still trying to fight the Norman Conquest. A very few investors like myself (45 years experience with a double degree in Economics) spotted the turnaround situation, realised the GFC is now history and took a stake. My stake was bought at an average 4 cents a share, now worth about 6cps. So to Roger, WOLF! Update yourself.

    Maybe it is true some investors fear another GFC. I prefer to postulate that Central Banks and Governments and International Insitutions have learnt from the GFC. Some people are still dead scared of another Great Depression because they haven't studied Economics or Economic History. They are the basis for aspiring dramatic authors to come out with at least one new book each year with titles like "The Coming Great Crash" and make a killing from eager suckers.
    Last edited by Major von Tempsky; 21-06-2016 at 05:46 PM.

  8. #28
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Default Some more background and hard facts

    Geneva Finance likes to portray itself as a great corporate citizen for eking its way through years of the moratorium they creatively constructed.

    In 2008 investors were compelled to accept shares for a portion of their debenture stock. This portion was 15% for secured debenture holders and 45% for unsecured subordinated stockholders and shares were issued at 36.492 cents per share. An investor with $100,000 of unsecured subordinated notes received back $55,000 plus interest and 123,314 shares now worth the "penny dreadful" sum of only 5.6 cps each $6,905, thus a capital loss has been suffered of nearly $40,000 ! An investor with $100,000 of first ranking secured debentures received back shares and capital repaid of $87,301 if they were still holding the shares today.

    Its a very sad indictment on the company that they now have to do a 7:1 share consolidation so that the SP might theoretically exceed the price the shares were issued at eight years ago ! It almost goes without saying that no dividends have been paid on those shares in all that time.

    Let the record correctly reflect the fact that investors did take a serious haircut on this company.

    The shares, (in any meaningful volume) never traded above 10 cps despite being issued at 36.492 cps based on management's assertions to a so called independent report on the moratorium.
    Managements assertions which this report were based upon, (but never adequately tested or audited) appear to have been grossly inaccurate in that the market immediately perceived the shares as being almost worthless.

    The company modelled itself on Instant Finance, in fact Glenn Walker the former CEO, (now an undischarged bankrupt) was the former CEO of Instant Finance and had ready access to all the intellectual property on how that highly successful company ran, (a company I might add that has run successfully right through the GFC without losing a cent of investors money) and yet managed to run this company in such an inept way as to destroy a significant portion of debenture holders and especially unsecured subordinated note holders investment.

    Mr Oconnell was on board and in charge of this company both before and during the moratorium when they were making extremely dubious transfers of millions of dollars of badly overdue debtors into their side company Stellar Collections at full face value. Through this process they disingenuously hid millions of dollars of bad loans, (write-downs) that should have been recognised in Geneva Finance itself.

    Just as well they didn't include a confidentiality clause in my settlement with them because that means someone can tell the awful truth about this companies grim history.

    I'm just putting their history out there so people can decide for themselves if they think the company has sufficient credibility for their own investment risk profile.
    (Disc: Don't own. Everything said is to the writers best recollection of events that occurred many years ago but should not be relied upon as investment advice or a recommendation. No responsibility whatsoever is accepted. DYOR). Absolutely not looking to buy if the SP goes down so my comments are based on a detailed involvement with the company and are not biased by having any current investment position with them but as always its up to people to decide for themselves who's posts have more credibility.
    Last edited by Beagle; 22-06-2016 at 09:29 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    Geneva Finance likes to portray itself as a great corporate citizen for eking its way through years of the moratorium they creatively constructed.

    In 2008 investors were compelled to accept shares for a portion of their debenture stock. This portion was 15% for secured debenture holders and 45% for unsecured subordinated stockholders and shares were issued at 36.492 cents per share. An investor with $100,000 of unsecured subordinated notes received back $55,000 plus interest and 123,314 shares now worth the "penny dreadful" sum of only 5.6 cps each $6,905, thus a capital loss has been suffered of nearly $40,000 ! An investor with $100,000 of first ranking secured debentures received back shares and capital repaid of $87,301 if they were still holding the shares today.

    Its a very sad indictment on the company that they now have to do a 7:1 share consolidation so that the SP might theoretically exceed the price the shares were issued at eight years ago ! It almost goes without saying that no dividends have been paid on those shares in all that time.

    Let the record correctly reflect the fact that investors did take a serious haircut on this company.

    The shares, (in any meaningful volume) never traded above 10 cps despite being issued at 36.492 cps based on management's assertions to a so called independent report on the moratorium.
    Managements assertions which this report were based upon, (but never adequately tested or audited) appear to have been grossly inaccurate in that the market immediately perceived the shares as being almost worthless.

    The company modelled itself on Instant Finance, in fact Glenn Walker the former CEO, (now an undischarged bankrupt) was the former CEO of Instant Finance and had ready access to all the intellectual property on how that highly successful company ran, (a company I might add that has run successfully right through the GFC without losing a cent of investors money) and yet managed to run this company in such an inept way as to destroy a significant portion of debenture holders and especially unsecured subordinated note holders investment.

    Mr Oconnell was on board and in charge of this company both before and during the moratorium when they were making extremely dubious transfers of millions of dollars of badly overdue debtors into their side company Stellar Collections at full face value. Through this process they disingenuously hid millions of dollars of bad loans, (write-downs) that should have been recognised in Geneva Finance itself.

    Just as well they didn't include a confidentiality clause in my settlement with them because that means someone can tell the awful truth about this companies grim history.

    I'm just putting their history out there so people can decide for themselves if they think the company has sufficient credibility for their own investment risk profile.
    (Disc: Don't own. Everything said is to the writers best recollection of events that occurred many years ago but should not be relied upon as investment advice or a recommendation. No responsibility whatsoever is accepted. DYOR). Absolutely not looking to buy if the SP goes down so my comments are based on a detailed involvement with the company and are not biased by having any current investment position with them but as always its up to people to decide for themselves who's posts have more credibility.

    Rog, I really feel sorry for you , yes you lost a heap of money along with plenty of others BUT there are thousands of "investors " who "invested " in a myrid of finance companies who lost everything, at least those previous Geneva investors have something not a lot but something , now for the rebuild just how the directors go about it will be the question mark.

  10. #30
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Thanks and agree. The apparently SIX BILLION dollars lost during the GFC by N.Z. investors has left many deep scars, some like my Uncle who lost almost everything he had in money managers, ($600K), (not advised by me to go into that). I would concede that at least David OConnel and some of the management team there tried their best in extremely difficult conditions, made all the more difficult by some very dubious lending decisions made by the former CEO Glenn Walker. They did better than most but its a sad indictment on the governance, Trustee's exercise of their ability to provide effective oversight, regulatory system and on auditing standards generally in N.Z. that things worked out as badly as they did for so many investors. I've spent enough time now and posted enough detail for people to now be aware of the background of Geneva so over and out on this one and good luck to investors.

    I learned a lot from this. Never ever put too much into any one thing. These days I reckon its best to have ten good investment idea's you really like and spread it around pretty evenly.
    If you can't find 10 good high conviction idea's just leave the rest in cash. (I haven't got time to follow more than 10 companies really closely)
    Last edited by Beagle; 22-06-2016 at 10:50 AM.

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