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Thread: New Forum Rules

  1. #16
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    I would like to see a very visible main page disclaimer for this site stating that the views of posters here are opinions only and are in no way financial advice.
    Technically stating "DYOR" is giving someone advice do to their own research........ which is still advice.....

    Most important rule for the internet:
    Do not be offended if someone disagrees with you on the internet.





    However , when understand that disagreeing with someone there is a very fine line between personal criticizing and criticizing an idea / statement.
    Most of the time even if you are criticizing and idea, and saying eg; "idea x is stupid" , then a person who believes idea x will probably think you are actually saying that they are stupid for believing idea x.

  2. #17
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    To keep the ball rolling.....
    Quote Originally Posted by BIRMANBOY View Post
    A few more thoughts/ideas into the cauldron
    In the spirit of keeping it simple here are my thoughts on the golden rules.
    (1) No personal abuse either direct or implied.

    more an Admin issue - but the only person who can complain about rule one is the aggrieved person - not a
    bystander

    (2)
    No direct (personalised ) aggressive criticism or belittling of other investors methodologies. (This is not supportive of our shared goals and is not welcomed or encouraged. Countering posts should be polite, civilized and framed in such a way that they don’t leave individuals feeling belittled or perceived as idiots.)
    Kinda the same as rule 1? and will perhaps makes things a bit sterile

    (3)
    All posters should have to disclose positions if they are employed by a Share market listed/associated company. If they are in a “top ten shareholder” position this should also be detailed. This, along with list of all shareholdings should be set as a “signature” for all posters and then is visible on all posts. I don’t believe this is asking too much and also adds some relevance andor questions as to posters motivation in posting.
    No I am against this one. My shareholdings are my personal business. This is a forum, not an investment advice seervbice so any views, unrestrained should be welcome


    I think that any reported post should be measured and could be judged as being one of following.
    (a) Not contrary to rules
    (b) Contrary but minor or first offense..equals warning
    (c) Contrary but serious escalation , even if first offense, equals one week ban
    (d) Contrary and second offense on same subject..equals one week ban
    (e) Contrary and third offense on same subject..equals 3 month ban
    (f) Contrary and 4th offense on same subject ..permanent ban from forum
    Agreed, but how a bout a bit simpler.
    Moderators cannot contribute to treads
    Complaints can only be made against a rule and by a participant in that thread
    Upheld complaint earns a "warning (wee red light thing that goes next to the Green light Reputations) that lasts say 6 months."Mods decide first 2 red lights
    Three red lights (on any threads combined) earns say a one week ban. Next ban is for say one month, next six months next one year.
    Decision on third red light decided by Jury of peers, not a Moderaotr

    Regards trolling, spruiking, downramping, pumping,dumping and associated endeavours. Since these are hard to prove and extremely open to interpretation, maybe let these be dealt with in the normal interaction of day to day posting. Being questioned by fellow posters should be sufficient to keep it under control. Its hard to draw a line between natural enthusiasm and pumping so let it go and let posters enjoy their wins and moan about their losses. It becomes obvious to most posters in any case
    Agreed - rules need to be simple and objective. Dont make the Mods job harder by allowing subjectivity.

    Oh, and another bit of admin rule.
    - Posters are solely responsible for opening, amending , deleting pasts. Admin reserves the right to add a footnote (eg "this post has earnt a warning"". None of this wholesale deletion of all posts when a Member spits the dummy. No deleting of posts by Mods. Flag it as a rule breaker sure, but move on.
    Last edited by minimoke; 13-12-2015 at 06:30 AM. Reason: quotes

  3. #18
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    No direct (personalised ) aggressive criticism or belittling of other investors methodologies.QUOTE

    I agree with your ''aggressive'' and ''belittling'' but I believe its fair game to question other methodologies--how else do we learn?

    I think most can tell when posts are starting to turn negative and even abusive (a sure sign is when those adjectives start popping up)

    I agree about not deleting posts of departing members--when we make comments -they should stay IMO

    I suppose we need to get clear whether its fair game to question company's performance or even motivation (leaving comments about posters out of the mix aside from disagreeing)--(obviously repeated remarks one way or the other should be minimized)

    It would be interesting to know whether posters feel that the rules are to strict or to lax at present

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Respectfully disagree.Unfortunately this hasn't worked in the past hence a recent ban. Relentless spruiking is very different to promoting a stock as is continuous bagging is different to choosing to sell or not buy a stock and giving reasons. Its the mods job and guidelines need to be clear for all imo..
    Thanks Vince for giving us the opportunity to comment on new rules.

    There isn’t much to add as other posters have come up with a fairly comprehensive list. My view is in line with what minimoke, Black Peter, Lizard and Birmanboy have posted.

    I do not like the thumbs up thumbs down idea. We already have a facility to agree or disagree with posts and these are now open to anyone to look at. I think that is sufficient.

    I do agree with Birmanboy about the pumping, dumping downramping etc, leave it to be dealt with in he normal interaction of day to day posting. Posters can easily put those they don’t like on the “ignore” function
    Last edited by iceman; 13-12-2015 at 09:29 AM.

  5. #20
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    Probably posted this own wrong thread previously. Short summary - probably existing rules are enough.

    What is the purpose / objective of Sharetrader? Without knowing this what's the point if having 'enforceable' rules beyond those of common decency, politeness and some legal protection constraints. These seem to be in place?

    From the owners perspective t is probably a means to reach out to many like minded people so they can make money (advertising, direct marketing etc). Your details are valuable to them.

    But what about us?

    The owners tout - www.sharetrader.co.nz - the only on-line communityfor share traders in NZ

    The header on this page says - NZ's number one share market forum for investors

    The NZX Forum is - Your place to discuss the instruments listed on the NZX

    So it seems we are a community where we have forums to discuss things.

    Communities are what participants want to make it. A Forum by definition is a public place for people to hold open discussions (ie have a conversation).

    It seems that what can be discussed is the root if the current discontent on ST.

    It seems some want a regimented disciplined approach to what is said on a topic - like strictly on topic and no real constructive discussion on pro and cons or whatever on a stock. That seems a sterile boring place to be.

    Communities thrive by open discussion (sometimes vigourous / sometimes unpalatable to some). It is the members themselves who generally control how far these discussions go .....without the need torun of to the referee if one is not happy. This creates vibrant community and not a disciplined regimented one.

    I prefer the latter model. If that means people aren't happy with me saying on the Scales thread that my home baked apple turnovers (on topic) they can either ignore it or pull me into line in a nice sort of way - but such is not red flags or banning material.

    Too many rules and too much disciplinary actin and this this forum is stuffed - stuffed by the collective us and probably to the dismay of the owners.

    Just my rave on a Sunday morning after the AC DC gig last night. In spite of wind and rain and technical difficulties a really spectacular event, great show. Betcha the residents of Thorndon didn't appreciate the cannons booming out at 11.30 - they were loud, really loud.
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  6. #21
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    Personally I think its fraught to try and over simplify anonymous internet conduct, behaviours, moderation, consequences etc. It is complicated, and subjective. But other sites have developed guidelines, there are numerous examples, ST needn't re-invent them imho.

    The following (links below) work OK in most cases, the Mods (individual Id's) are quite active on the very busy threads and generally consistent in applying the rules. There are some 'features' which may not be able to be implemented on ST but imo work very well, the thumbs up/down, and the forced disclosure in particular.

    Codes Guidelines http://hotcopper.com.au/help/code
    Terms of Use http://hotcopper.com.au/help/terms
    Privacy Policy http://hotcopper.com.au/help/privacy
    Defamation Guide http://hotcopper.com.au/help/defamation

  7. #22
    Advanced Member BIRMANBOY's Avatar
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    So re your responses to my post # 1...actually anyone can report a post not solely the aggrieved person. Simply click on icon at bottom left of post.
    #2 similar but different...its possible to rubbish someone elses choices and investing style and not be abusive, but at the same time make them feel bullied. There is a way of doing it which can be constructive and supportive which is surely more productive.
    #3 not to question your motives ..but whats the harm in disclosing your (our) interests. Personally I feel it adds to the weight of the post/poster if I see they have skin in the game. its too easy to be critical when you don't have anything to lose or gain. Also its all anonymous anyway so I don't see the issue.
    #4 details obviously need to be hammered out but ultimately once set should be easy to follow and understand.
    Which posts to delete and when and can mods do it or posters are another discussion in my view. what we should be focussing on first is the rules and whether they are fair , manageable and easily administered. I'm assuming the moderators don't get paid for what they do so lets make their job easier and less tiresome and less time absorbing.
    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    To keep the ball rolling.....
    more an Admin issue - but the only person who can complain about rule one is the aggrieved person - not a [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]bystander
    [FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
    Kinda the same as rule 1? and will perhaps makes things a bit sterile

    [FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3] No I am against this one. My shareholdings are my personal business. This is a forum, not an investment advice seervbice so any views, unrestrained should be welcome

    Agreed, but how a bout a bit simpler.
    Moderators cannot contribute to treads
    Complaints can only be made against a rule and by a participant in that thread
    Upheld complaint earns a "warning (wee red light thing that goes next to the Green light Reputations) that lasts say 6 months."Mods decide first 2 red lights
    Three red lights (on any threads combined) earns say a one week ban. Next ban is for say one month, next six months next one year.
    Decision on third red light decided by Jury of peers, not a Moderaotr

    Agreed - rules need to be simple and objective. Dont make the Mods job harder by allowing subjectivity.

    Oh, and another bit of admin rule.
    - Posters are solely responsible for opening, amending , deleting pasts. Admin reserves the right to add a footnote (eg "this post has earnt a warning"". None of this wholesale deletion of all posts when a Member spits the dummy. No deleting of posts by Mods. Flag it as a rule breaker sure, but move on.
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  8. #23
    Advanced Member BIRMANBOY's Avatar
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    Its great to see people giving assorted opinions and contributing ideas...this is how products and services keep getting better. Also kudos to ST and moderators for allowing the discussion take place. Most of us, if we are honest with ourselves, are probably not perfect (or even close) when it comes to our reactions when our processes are being criticized and or called into question. In the end, any product is generally always better when the intellectual resources of many individuals co-operate. The posters gain by exchanging ideas and systems and the forum owners/operators gain by building size and credibility. A forum without enthusiastic and engaged participants is going nowhere and will in fact create openings for others to provide similar but improved services. So again great that ST is keen to see and implement positive changes. I'm not a big or even medium poster but I do like efforts being made to assist and enhance everyone's enjoyment.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIRMANBOY View Post
    #3 not to question your motives ..but whats the harm in disclosing your (our) interests. Personally I feel it adds to the weight of the post/poster if I see they have skin in the game. its too easy to be critical when you don't have anything to lose or gain. Also its all anonymous anyway so I don't see the issue..
    Still not sure what value this adds. And fraught with difficulty. For example I've posted on the RIS thread. What do you want to know. That I am a holder, how many I own (couldn't tell you - no idea), How much I paid for them (no idea - came from some convoluted backdoor process), How much are they worth now (no Idea since I dont know how many I hold)

    Say I want to contribute to PEB of which I hold none. So I'm going to tell you I hold 20,000. Happy now?

    Having or not having skin in the game I dont think adds anythng other than nosey parkers seeing what I hold. It doesn't enhance my ability to analyse the issues and have an opinion. Its a forum afterall. The most respected opinions ought to be the ones backed by evidence

    And Rule One - I guess it gets up my nose when people take offence on behalf of others. For example I have been called all sorts of things in threads. I've a thick skin and dont take offence. I'd be mortified if someone complained on my behalf - I'm quite able to do it myself. I accept there are some thinner skinned people. This is a sharetrader forum not some nancy world where we need to be looking after the vulnerable - they should stay on the TradeMe message boards. If a person cant take a bit of stick being in the sharemarket probably isn't for them - and if they are upset they ought to have a free call to the Mods to call a halt.

  10. #25
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    Everyone entitled to an opinion...Seeing that a poster is a holder is sufficient ...anything else is just unnecessary unless they are substantial (top ten) holder or they are somehow connected to the company. Both of these elements should be disclosed in my view. In fact I believe that this is presently in the rules somewhere. As for whether or not one is a holder doesn't stop anyone from posting. How much weight is put on the post is as you say based mostly on the content and its relevance, However I personally believe that comments coming from holders or previous holders carry a bit more weight. Others may not but living through an experience surely should carry some meaning? Re your second point as to "nosey parkers", you are obviously a thick skinned person who can deal with a bit of grief..that's great but its not all about you here. Unfortunately some people a easily put off and can be adversely affected by something you would just shrug off. I don't mind being labelled a "nosy parker" if by reporting a post it shows some solidarity and sensitivity to someone who has been embarrassed and or humiliated. Unfortunately we are not all created equal in our ability to withstand hardships so I believe we should not assume that everyone will "harden up". I guess that makes me a "nancy boy" LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Still not sure what value this adds. And fraught with difficulty. For example I've posted on the RIS thread. What do you want to know. That I am a holder, how many I own (couldn't tell you - no idea), How much I paid for them (no idea - came from some convoluted backdoor process), How much are they worth now (no Idea since I dont know how many I hold)

    Say I want to contribute to PEB of which I hold none. So I'm going to tell you I hold 20,000. Happy now?

    Having or not having skin in the game I dont think adds anythng other than nosey parkers seeing what I hold. It doesn't enhance my ability to analyse the issues and have an opinion. Its a forum afterall. The most respected opinions ought to be the ones backed by evidence

    And Rule One - I guess it gets up my nose when people take offence on behalf of others. For example I have been called all sorts of things in threads. I've a thick skin and dont take offence. I'd be mortified if someone complained on my behalf - I'm quite able to do it myself. I accept there are some thinner skinned people. This is a sharetrader forum not some nancy world where we need to be looking after the vulnerable - they should stay on the TradeMe message boards. If a person cant take a bit of stick being in the sharemarket probably isn't for them - and if they are upset they ought to have a free call to the Mods to call a halt.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Still not sure what value this adds. And fraught with difficulty. For example I've posted on the RIS thread. What do you want to know. That I am a holder, how many I own (couldn't tell you - no idea), How much I paid for them (no idea - came from some convoluted backdoor process), How much are they worth now (no Idea since I dont know how many I hold)

    Say I want to contribute to PEB of which I hold none. So I'm going to tell you I hold 20,000. Happy now?

    Having or not having skin in the game I dont think adds anythng other than nosey parkers seeing what I hold. It doesn't enhance my ability to analyse the issues and have an opinion. Its a forum afterall. The most respected opinions ought to be the ones backed by evidence

    And Rule One - I guess it gets up my nose when people take offence on behalf of others. For example I have been called all sorts of things in threads. I've a thick skin and dont take offence. I'd be mortified if someone complained on my behalf - I'm quite able to do it myself. I accept there are some thinner skinned people. This is a sharetrader forum not some nancy world where we need to be looking after the vulnerable - they should stay on the TradeMe message boards. If a person cant take a bit of stick being in the sharemarket probably isn't for them - and if they are upset they ought to have a free call to the Mods to call a halt.
    I agree--Some have been involved with a share ,have bought and sold for a very good reason--there is no reason why they shouldnt be able to voice that reason--It may save someone elses skin---We all like good things to happen--and we dont like bad things to happen--but when bad things happen ,learning damage control is a valuable asset.

    Im assuming BB you are referring to the Hot copper style with the holding or not holding tick--I personally dont have a problem letting people know if Im not currently holding--but while I dont like down rite meanness ,I also find that many things are becoming over regulated. I personally would not like to go further down that road.

    I guess many have noticed that there are some who have become more or less the official ''spokesman'' for a number of companies. Its an interesting phenomena and Im not going to comment on whether its a good or bad thing,except to say that with that much skin in the game it is possibly easier to take offense and many spats have originated from this situation. Thats a hard one because anyone who has put in so much energy is pretty extra ordinary if they are not more attached--guess its just good to bear that in mind.

    Sarcasm?--Well that would be pretty difficult to enforce but maybe a gentle reminder to habitual offenders?

    And lastly...Let's not forget the difference between guidelines and hard core rules

    PS-I hope the majority find playing the devils advocate sometimes and trying to think outside the box a bit is not to disruptive.
    Last edited by skid; 13-12-2015 at 03:35 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    OK. I'll get the ball rolling.

    No personal abuse of a Member including the use of expressions of bigotry, racism, sexism, hatred or profanity.

    No providing of information which could be construed as financial investment advice under (What ever Act)
    I don't think authorised financial advisers could ever post 'advice' on this forum. The simple reason is they have no idea who their 'client' is and what their client's circumstanes are: having an anonymous person on the internet as your 'customer' doesn't cut it.

    But as far as someone expressing their own opinion as to whether a particular stock or bond is worth buying selling or holding - -that shouldn't be classed as 'advice'. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is a core reason for the forum to exist. Merely stating an opinion though is not that useful on its own. Best you post why you think a certain way.

    No bringing the reputation of the Shareholder Forum, its owners, Members, Administrators Moderators etc into disrepute, including the making of defamatory statements
    As long as defamatory statements sanctions do not cover "In my opinion, ..... etc." IOW a defamatory statement is not defined as simply as something that the moderators just disagree with.

    No spruiking stuff
    I think there are enough members with common sense on the forum to point out when something is being spruiked. Ideally a poster should declare their own position (whether they are looking to buy or sell or hold for example) when they post. But such a rule would be unenforcable. Best just to rely on other members to police this one. I don't think a special 'no spruiking' rule is needed.

    No grumbling, moaning whinging about anything related to this forum.
    Well meaning, but far too general and subjective.

    SNOOPY

    PS

    The most important guideline of all should be.

    */ As a poster, don't regard yourself as too self important! You are only setting yourself up to be very easily offended if you do that! Maybe a minimum skin thickness should be required before posting?

    AND

    */ Make your point once and move on, accepting that others my disagree. No point in playing an endless ping pong game of disagreement over one idea.
    Last edited by Snoopy; 13-12-2015 at 03:53 PM.
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  13. #28
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    Im kinda confused--Is there only one moderator (Vince) or are there several?

  14. #29
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    Ignore list.
    Advise posters they have been placed on an ignore list and who the anonymous poster is that has done so.
    1. If a poster gets too many he may realise that he is not flavour of the month generally speaking and as a consequence may apply more thought to what he is saying.
    2. In order to prevent ongoing discourse and unwarranted ignore, ie ganging up, if a poster ignores someone it becomes valid for two weeks and the ignore cannot be removed.
    This stops you ignoring someone and then sneaking back for a look and carrying on as before.
    I am guilty of this.
    It would also make you think before ignoring someone in the first place which may make the ignoree in turn think about what he/she has said.
    Just a suggestion, ignore it by all means.

  15. #30
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    My opinion - No moderation other than deleting anything illegal or racist, sexist etc. Otherwise, free for all. If someone repeatedly posts like an idiot then hit the ignore button. If two grown men want to act like schoolgirls having a bunfight online then let them make fools of themselves, we can simply skip past it or enjoy it with some popcorn if you're that way inclined.

    Only exception, one day bans max for someone who clearly needs a cool down, like that time the Moose got drunk and started abusing a CEO

    And previously banned posters back and encourage those who have chosen to leave to come back (via email).

    Just my opinion.

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