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Thread: Brexit

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    He lies all the time.
    So do most leaders-Trump and Putin for instance.
    Mankind is in a very dangerous place .
    Many Politicians do present just one side of the story - the side that will support their point of view or interest. So perhaps a lie by constructive omission?

    Then you have the blatant liars who deliberately fabricate and embellish to garner support.

    PM Johnson has stated that he intends to deliver Brexit "do or die" and "come what may". So Brexit will trump Britains parliamentary democracy and the Hard Brexiters will use all tactics to delver their particular interpretation of Brexit, as it will be a life and death struggle for them. PM Johnson has given licence to them to get Brexit done "come what may".
    Last edited by Bjauck; 14-08-2019 at 06:52 AM.

  2. #1022
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    He did it - BoJo managed to suspend parliament. This is something tyrants and dictators do. The aging monarch (93 years old) might have been too tired or distracted to stop him.

    I am wondering whether it felt much different in 1933 Germany when an aging Hindenburg (86 years old at that stage) was too tired to stop Hitler's takeover.

    Democracy is dying - the people clearly tolerated too many lying politicians in office. BoJo is one of the worst living examples - though arguably not the worst of his kind.

    We clearly live in interesting times ... lets hope it ends this time with less fatalities than last time when the extreme right raised their ugly head.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eculation-live
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  3. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    He did it - BoJo managed to suspend parliament. This is something tyrants and dictators do. The aging monarch (93 years old) might have been too tired or distracted to stop him.

    I am wondering whether it felt much different in 1933 Germany when an aging Hindenburg (86 years old at that stage) was too tired to stop Hitler's takeover.

    Democracy is dying - the people clearly tolerated too many lying politicians in office. BoJo is one of the worst living examples - though arguably not the worst of his kind.

    We clearly live in interesting times ... lets hope it ends this time with less fatalities than last time when the extreme right raised their ugly head.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eculation-live
    Yes the parallels with aspects of Weimar Germany are becoming more horrifying.

    Brexiters misled the voters in their campaign by saying that a Brexit deal would be easy to achieve. Instead, what the UK is being given is a PM elected by the Conservative party members suspending "the mother of parliaments" in order to give him free reign to force his will on to the UK even if that means a No Deal.

    The UK constitution has not been broken - the monarch is obliged to accept her PM's advice. However it does show the glaring inadequacies in the UK constitution especially with respects to ensuring the supremacy of parliament. Also the place of referenda within the workings of the constitution need to be clarified!

    The one bright spot is that despite many problems, the EU is still remaining remarkably unified. A UK spiralling out of control with self-inflicted wounds will probably not engulf the continent in War.

  4. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    The UK constitution has not been broken - the monarch is obliged to accept her PM's advice. However it does show the glaring inadequacies in the UK constitution especially with respects to ensuring the supremacy of parliament. Also the place of referenda within the workings of the constitution need to be clarified!
    True - similar to Hindenburg appointing chancellor Hitler. Hindenburg acted quite within the rules of the Weimar republic.

    However - he had discretion and would have had a choice - and (I think) so would have had the Queen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post

    The one bright spot is that despite many problems, the EU is still remaining remarkably unified. A UK spiralling out of control with self-inflicted wounds will probably not engulf the continent in War.
    I think we share this hope - though as I learned in a different context ... hope is not a strategy - and if we forget about the UK, Italy might soon follow a similar political path.

    We need to see the situation as well in a global context.

    We do have a shattered Western alliance (thanks Donald and his friend Vladimir), with more and more of their members actively weakening their democratic systems (starting with Trump-land and now Johnson-land). Their populist leaders act only in selfish personal interest hidden behind populist blurbs and lies.

    We do have a strengthening China with a ruthless strong man at the top - and Russia (not much better to say about their strong man) clearly enjoys the current mess it helped to create.

    We do have any number of middle class tyrants running their countries (like Turkey, Philippines, Brazil and many others) - all controlling huge armies and operating without democratic control with main focus of strengthening their power position and the finances of their family clans and friends.

    We do have a Middle East on fire - and populist politicians supporting murderers running countries.

    War and / or suppression is an inevitable consequence where corrupt liars and populists govern - though hopefully not in Europe (and - god forbid - not here!). But again - hope is not a strategy.

    Question is - what can right minded people do to stop this lunacy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    True - similar to Hindenburg appointing chancellor Hitler. Hindenburg acted quite within the rules of the Weimar republic.

    However - he had discretion and would have had a choice - and (I think) so would have had the Queen.

    ...
    The Queen has absolute power "de jure". However by convention she is apolitical and follows the advice of the PM.If she refused the advice of the PM to prorogue parliament she would be becoming political as opposed to functionary. I think MPs will need to move a vote of no confidence in the PM and show the queen that another MP has the confidence of parliament.

    I don't know the details of the constitution of the Weimar Republic but I think Hindenburg's post was elected and his position was more political than that of the Queen.

    The World in 2016 when they held their referendum was a more stable place. Three years hence, Brexit seems a more reckless course of action to voluntarily undertake.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 30-08-2019 at 06:39 AM.

  6. #1026
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    Interesting week in the British parliament. Boris removes the whip from Torys who only did what he did all the year - not supporting their PM. Difference is - May was clueless as well, but compared to BoJo she still had some honour and competence.

    BoJo loses the majority in parliament on the first attempt (one could argue - he never had it) and after gambling with the fortunes of the country it is only fair that he now burns the future of the Conservatives.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-first-hurdle

    Pity that Corbyn is not a much better man ... but hey - in the land of the blind the one-eyed is king.

    Poor England ... I am pretty sure the other parts of the untied kingdom will soon look after themselves ...

    Love this opinion piece:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rebel-alliance

    But then - the danger is not over yet ... there will be a general election coming. I hope the UK passes the cup Germany which took in the 1930'ies.
    Last edited by BlackPeter; 04-09-2019 at 04:48 PM.
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    The Kingdom is in the process dis-uniting! The trouble is Boris will have a good go at trashing it first in the name of upholding whatever he thinks the Brexit referendum gave him licence to do, with scant regard to the delicate peace that prevails in the North of Ireland.

    Fintan O’ Toole has a good piece:
    Fintan O’Toole: Welcome to the United Kingdom of Absurdistan

    Britain’s democracy is built on feudalism and its unwritten constitution is feeble

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/f...stan-1.4005396

    A message too for NZ and the parts of its constitution that remain unwritten, like the UK’s.

  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    ...
    But then - the danger is not over yet ... there will be a general election coming. I hope the UK passes the cup Germany which took in the 1930'ies.
    I see there is a tv program being broadcast on the BBC In the UK...very timely...https://inews.co.uk/culture/televisi...-time-tonight/

    It is unlikely that even a bad deal with the E.U. would be as debilitating as the Treaty of Versailles was on Germany in the inter-war period.

  9. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    I see there is a tv program being broadcast on the BBC In the UK...very timely...https://inews.co.uk/culture/televisi...-time-tonight/

    It is unlikely that even a bad deal with the E.U. would be as debilitating as the Treaty of Versailles was on Germany in the inter-war period.
    You are right and pointing in my view at the major difference. One of the triggers in the 1930'ies for the far right to take over (not just in Germany ...) was a terrible economic crisis. This we didn't had so far in the UK, and I agree - BREXIT alone (no matter how hard it will be) is unlikely to make the situation worse enough.

    However - if you look at the overall picture - it is not that far fetched that we might have in the years to come a similar economic depression like in the 1920'ies in the wings. Just give the Trump's and Putin's of the world another handful of years to blow up the federal deficits in order to make themselves and their rich friends richer. One day these debt bubbles will blow and pension schemas will crumble. As soon as this happens, the world economy will collapse - and than right wing people (not just in Britain) will find rich grounds for their populist ideas and ideology.

    I am not saying it must go this way, but people like Johnson and Farage are clearly preparing the way ... and it will certainly not be their respect for the constitution which will stop them.
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  10. #1030
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    "The emperor wears no clothes": BoJo vs Corbyn

    https://youtu.be/IUsrV4uKXeA

    Compared to BoJo does even Corbyn look like PM material - doesn't he?
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  11. #1031
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    Very appropriate words and a stark warning from Sir John Major (one of the previous PM's who still deserved the word "Prime" in the job title:

    Anti-Europeans may cheer, but a weaker Europe leaves the UK more at the mercy of decisions taken by a – I hope temporarily – dysfunctional United States, and a long-term autocratic China.

    It also leaves the UK more vulnerable to Putin’s aggressive and assertive Russia. None of that will be welcome, but it is the inevitable legacy of Brexit.

    Our new UK government knows this to be true. Yet they ignore it – and pursue our exit from Europe on an artificial date, without a deal. Some do so for ideological reasons. Others for political and personal advantage. Neither the ideologue nor the self-interested Brexiteer appears to put our national wellbeing first.

    Our new Cabinet has no majority and no mandate ... It is not a Cabinet of all available talents. It is a faction of a faction, with no counter-balance of opinion to hold it back. Upon Brexit, the Cabinet non–believers are mere window dressing. They will not be listened to, and will always be out-voted.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Very appropriate words and a stark warning from Sir John Major (one of the previous PM's who still deserved the word "Prime" in the job title:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live
    Like Johnson, John Major was also a Conservative Party PM. What’s more he lead the Conservatives to a fourth consecutive victory in a general election. Johnson is PM because only Conservative members appointed him.

    There is nothing as damning as criticism from a former PM of the same party. So it is interesting to see how far to the populist hard right that Party has moved. From the same Politics Live column, I see that ex PM Major also said:

    The government must change its tone. Ministers routinely insult half the electorate as “Remoaners”. The surgeon who drew up the Yellowhammer risk register of epilepsy and neurology drugs is told he is a “fear-mongering Remainer”.Businessmen are warned that a negative attitude on Brexit will lead to their companies being frozen out of any future government consultation. This is behaviour I never thought to see from any British government, and it must stop.
    The abuse comes from Cabinet ministers; and the threats from No 10 special advisers. I repeat: it must stop.
    Ahead lie many challenges. If we are to meet them we need government of the highest quality, not government by bluster and threat in a climate of aggressive bullying”

    It sounds like Major is sounding the klaxon alarm against an emerging fascism starting to permeate UK public life. The Conservative Party need to be reminded that they can be right wing without being dictators. Scrutiny and critique may bring about better policy. However Johnson has made it clear that he does not mind if Brexit is underpinned with good policies or not. It is Brexit do or die, whether or not it degrades the good governance or welfare of the people.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 06-09-2019 at 02:25 PM.

  13. #1033
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    Default Dominic Cummings - the puppet player behind BoJo

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  14. #1034
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    Such fun!

    UK politics has long involved a left-right spectrum, with two main opposing parties.

    The question of Brexit is not a left-right party political issue, and so cannot be resolved in the current U.K. political system.

    So if the question (Brexit) isn't going away, then the answer is going to be change in the U.K. political system and environment.

    I wonder what those changes will be - but I doubt that they'll be for the better.

  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTM 3442 View Post
    Such fun!

    UK politics has long involved a left-right spectrum, with two main opposing parties.

    The question of Brexit is not a left-right party political issue, and so cannot be resolved in the current U.K. political system.

    So if the question (Brexit) isn't going away, then the answer is going to be change in the U.K. political system and environment.

    I wonder what those changes will be - but I doubt that they'll be for the better.
    Well yes, as a TV show without consequences it could be fun - but hey, I don't think it would be possible to make these things up! However - this is reality - and many generations will need to pay the bill for the havoc created by a bunch of dis-honest and irresponsible populists. This (in combination with the actions of the crook in the white house) is history in the making - expect the world order to look very different in 20 years from now, and I don't think it will feature the "English speaking world" as high in the food chain as it is still today, but maybe this is a good thing.

    Looking at the British system - I don't think Brexit is a question, and it certainly is not an answer. Brexit is a symptom of a broken system. It started as the protest vote of people who didn't bother to think their actions through (quite typical for any masses) - and by now it has been hijacked by a bunch of power hungry populists who don't care to leave scorched earth behind them on the way.

    I agree - the system needs change - it is very obvious that many countries (including the UK) are not very good in recruiting their leaders. It appears as well that many democratic systems find it difficult to control rogue leaders.

    But the bigger issue here is that today's systems are that complex that hardly anybody understands them fully. Most voters have neither the time nor the interest nor the capacity to think through complicated questions. A system which asked uneducated angry masses the BREXIT question (as part of the power game of one specific leader) is clearly broken.

    Many Brexiteer's have been brain dead enough to make their tick without even knowing what the EU is they ticked to leave. This was like asking a class of primary students without expert advise how to design the next rocket to Mars ... and following their majority decisions. I would not want to sit in that rocket - and I certainly would not want to live in a Brexiting UK. Same thing.

    How to change this system - I am not sure. A benevolent autocracy might be the best solution. The only problem is - there is no known method to pick benevolent autocrats and keep them benevolent.

    Maybe we just need to get through the current mess like the world went through the last populist outbreak in the 1930'ies and 1940'ies - though I hope there is a better solution.
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