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Thread: Brexit

  1. #1241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    It has always been the case that the older generations end up sending the young men (and women) to fight their battles. So it will be with Brexit.

    It is the young who are feeling the effects of inflated house prices. It will be wth the young who have to cope with climate change. In the UK, It will be the young (& subsequent generations?) who will disproportionately feel the effects of having their EU citizenship taken away from them and the loss of freedom of movement and study with the rest of the EU. It will be the young who will have to cope with the economic disruption from Brexit.
    Oh dear. Every generation has it's issues. The much maligned boomers in Europe had a small thing called communism and a Cold War to cope with. Add to that the oil shocks of the 70's, rampant inflation and unemployment. But that doesn't fit the narrative does it?

  2. #1242
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Oh dear. Every generation has it's issues. The much maligned boomers in Europe had a small thing called communism and a Cold War to cope with. Add to that the oil shocks of the 70's, rampant inflation and unemployment. But that doesn't fit the narrative does it?
    Every generation has a range of problems bequeathed to them. However Mostly the subsequent generations are richer in purchasing power than previous generations. It seems the generations after the boomers may be poorer though. Even tougher luck for the post-Brexit generations in the UK trying to rebuild international relationships.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/millenn...nts-data-show/

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    You are right, most peers would disagree with me. I guess it might be because I didn't have that benefit of privileged boomer first world upbringing.
    I thought you were young and from the EU. Most EU countries are first world. The former communist countries may be regarded as ex-Second World? I was referring to the young voters in the UK. A majority of them would not be privileged. They are not baby boomers

    You got me, there was couple of elections in last 2-3 years where conservative and "populist" and "alt-right" parties won. Now I've been put into my place. It doesn't matter that EU is trying to force socialist policies as long as there is more allegedly conservative politicians in EU parliament.

    Anyway. I say Brexit will actually not hurt GB economy in long term. So let's revisit this topic in 5 and 10 years and see who was right.
    You are welcome to counter points made with your own facts and arguments.

    Jeremy Corbyn of UK Labour is a good old socialist and would only have been able to introduce much of his platform when the UK has left the EU.

    You are optimistic for the UK's long term economic prospects outside of the EU. Even many Brexiters consider there will be an economic hit from Brexit, but treat it as a price worth paying. Even Johnson has said that he will pursue Brexit, come what may, whatever the consequences. On what do you base your opinion?

    Johnson has refused to have comprehensive costings on his deal. However Economists from the UK Government predicted a scenario very similar to Johnson's Brexit, and ambitions for future relations with the EU, will likely make Britain about 6.7% poorer by 2034. Theresa May's Brexit would have left the UK about 2.1% poorer. So PM Johnson's deal will leave the UK poorer according to the UK government itself

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/18/john...-suggests.html
    Last edited by Bjauck; 16-12-2019 at 08:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Liberal Democrat leader whose party got 11.6% of the vote, up from 7.4% in 2017. Yet they have fewer seats in the new parliament.

    So he will no longer need to act unlawfully to try to get his way as he did with the previous parliament?

    Is the FPP system really fit for purpose in a supposed democracy in the Twenty-first century?
    They need MMP

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    You got me, there was couple of elections in last 2-3 years where conservative and "populist" and "alt-right" parties won. Now I've been put into my place. It doesn't matter that EU is trying to force socialist policies as long as there is more allegedly conservative politicians in EU parliament.

    Anyway. I say Brexit will actually not hurt GB economy in long term. So let's revisit this topic in 5 and 10 years and see who was right.
    Well, yes - the last 2-3 years brought more right wing populists into many European parliaments, but just remind me how socialists and communists controlled the EU 3 years ago as you claim? I can't find any evidence for that.

    As well - could you just point us to some of the "socialist policies" you claim the EU is "trying to force" upon its members? I guess sure - some people call anything left of Le Pen (France) / AFD (Germany) / Five Star Movement (Italy) or the US Republicans as socialist and / or communist. Is this where you are coming from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Every generation has a range of problems bequeathed to them. However Mostly the subsequent generations are richer in purchasing power than previous generations. It seems the generations after the boomers may be poorer though. Even tougher luck for the post-Brexit generations in the UK trying to rebuild international relationships.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/millenn...nts-data-show/
    Have you considered the poor sods who staggered out of WW1, finally got to their feet to be whacked by the Great Depression? To struggle through that and then see their children sent off to WW2. Starting to sound like a Monty Python sketch...."When I were young we were murdered in our beds every night."

    All is relative. There is good reason why older generations have by and large run things and told younger ones to be quiet and listen. The oldies have something called experience. Not to say they can't muck things up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Have you considered the poor sods who staggered out of WW1, finally got to their feet to be whacked by the Great Depression? To struggle through that and then see their children sent off to WW2. Starting to sound like a Monty Python sketch...."When I were young we were murdered in our beds every night."

    All is relative. There is good reason why older generations have by and large run things and told younger ones to be quiet and listen. The oldies have something called experience. Not to say they can't muck things up.
    I am not sure how my previous post could be interpreted as lacking in recognition the problems encountered by previous generations such as those who lived through WW1 and WW2 - and of course all the other wars over the years.

    Boomer standard of living is higher than both the WW2 and WW1 generations. Millennials have a lower standard of living and home ownership than Boomers, when boomers were of a similar age. Millennials wil have to divert more of their income to cope with the globally warming that Boomers have to a large part ignored. Anyway this thread is about Brexit - an additional problem faced by young Brits and Europeans and the rest of us to lesser extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    I am not sure how my previous post could be interpreted as lacking in recognition the problems encountered by previous generations such as those who lived through WW1 and WW2 - and of course all the other wars over the years.

    Boomer standard of living is higher than both the WW2 and WW1 generations. Millennials have a lower standard of living and home ownership than Boomers, when boomers were of a similar age. Millennials wil have to divert more of their income to cope with the globally warming that Boomers have to a large part ignored. Anyway this thread is about Brexit - an additional problem faced by young Brits and Europeans and the rest of us to lesser extent.
    My point was, today's young, (I detest the term Millennial as much as I do Boomer) aren't the first to have it tough. Millennial vs Boomer is just another sad splinter of Identity Politics; assuming someone who can be pigeon-holed into a group. This is why Identity Politics is so dangerous and ridiculous at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Well, yes - the last 2-3 years brought more right wing populists into many European parliaments, but just remind me how socialists and communists controlled the EU 3 years ago as you claim? I can't find any evidence for that.

    As well - could you just point us to some of the "socialist policies" you claim the EU is "trying to force" upon its members? I guess sure - some people call anything left of Le Pen (France) / AFD (Germany) / Five Star Movement (Italy) or the US Republicans as socialist and / or communist. Is this where you are coming from?
    EU subsidies is probably the biggest and the worst one. Then market production quotas per country(destroyed some profitable companies i know of). Ignoring laws and legitimizing illegal immigration. Forcing multiculturalism on countries that have no interest in it. Creating regulations on how straight or round the cucumbers and bananas should be.
    Last edited by peetter; 16-12-2019 at 10:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    My point was, today's young, (I detest the term Millennial as much as I do Boomer) aren't the first to have it tough. Millennial vs Boomer is just another sad splinter of Identity Politics; assuming someone who can be pigeon-holed into a group. This is why Identity Politics is so dangerous and ridiculous at the same time.
    I am amused by Bjauck trying to convince me how hard I have it, even though I know it's not true at all...

    I came to this country 4 years ago with enough money to buy old Honda Odyssey which I lived in for 4 months while working and traveling. Now I make enough money to save for house deposit in Auckland in 3 years. My partner started working as a waitress, now(4 years later) she is charging $65 per hour as personal trainer. There is plenty of opportunities if people actually want to work.

    Bjauck, you are an example of a Boomer who is failing the new generation... You live with an idea that everybody should be able to get anything. Newsflash. Life is hard and unfair. Deal with it.
    Last edited by peetter; 16-12-2019 at 10:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    I am amused by Bjauck trying to convince me how hard I have it, even though I know it's not true at all...
    Bjauck is pretty amusing with his spinning. Gives me a chuckle too

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    I am amused by Bjauck trying to convince me how hard I have it, even though I know it's not true at all...
    My comments were general. I know many financially struggling hard working young adults.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    My point was, today's young, (I detest the term Millennial as much as I do Boomer) aren't the first to have it tough. Millennial vs Boomer is just another sad splinter of Identity Politics; assuming someone who can be pigeon-holed into a group. This is why Identity Politics is so dangerous and ridiculous at the same time.
    Totally agree with you on identity politics, which was in large part behind the push for Brexit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Bjauck is pretty amusing with his spinning. Gives me a chuckle too
    Examples of my spin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    EU subsidies is probably the biggest and the worst one.
    There are clearly Pro's as well as Con's for agriculture subsidies in the EU, but I agree that the whole system grew sort of out of control. However - These subsidies have been supported by generations of conservative, liberal as well as social democratic governments and there is absolutely nothing socialist / communist about them. If you look at the US of A .... Trump is heavily subsidizing his farmers. Is Trump a communist as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    Then market production quotas per country(destroyed some profitable companies i know of).
    Not quite sure what you are talking about ... can you point to any market production quota per country within the EU? Which companies did these quotas destroy?

    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    Ignoring laws and legitimizing illegal immigration.
    Again - would you mind to provide any evidence for your claim? If you are referring to the refugees in Europe - most civilised countries do acknowledge a right of asylum for people whose human rights are in danger in the countries they come from - and this is good so.

    And again - what has the welcoming of refugees to do with socialism or communism? It is just something any decent human being (no matter which political colors) would do.


    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    Forcing multiculturalism on countries that have no interest in it.
    Want to come up with an example where the EU forced multiculturalism on any country? I guess sure - there are some basic human rights which EU countries accepted (if they don't, they won't be accepted into the EU) Nobody forced them to join the EU and commit to these human rights. I think however that ratbags like e.g. the populist Hungarian autocrats liked very much the EU subsidies but want to avoid the human rights act. Shame over them.

    But again - what has this to do with socialism or communism?

    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    Creating regulations on how straight or round the cucumbers and bananas should be.
    Typical Brexit B/S - debunked hundreds of times.

    However - there are some EU standards related to fruit size and similar to allow the classification of fruits to make it easier for consumers to compare (not just) apples with apples. If you don't like these standards, fine - but what exactly do they have to do with communism or socialism?
    Last edited by BlackPeter; 16-12-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    EU subsidies is probably the biggest and the worst one. Then market production quotas per country(destroyed some profitable companies i know of). Ignoring laws and legitimizing illegal immigration. Forcing multiculturalism on countries that have no interest in it. Creating regulations on how straight or round the cucumbers and bananas should be.
    Hardly a socialist country, the USA subsidises too. The EU certainly is not perfect - Right Wing Viktor Orbán misuses EU farm subsidies for his allies.
    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/e...9-11?r=US&IR=T
    https://www.downsizinggovernment.org...ture/subsidies

    Cannot comment on the forcing upon all EU members of multi-culturalism. Many member states are historically multi-cultural anyway. For example, Belgium has Walloons and Flemish; The UK has Celtic Irish,Welsh Scots and English. The UK opened its doors voluntarily to immigrants from the recent accessions of Eastern European member countries. The EU did not force it. The UK has a considerable number of migrants from non-EU states. The EU did not force it to open its borders.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 16-12-2019 at 11:18 AM.

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    The thing is, it's not just agriculture. There are private companies getting subsidies from EU in markets where there is no need for it. Like hotels, bakeries etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Not quite sure what you are talking about ... can you point to any market production quota per country within the EU? Which companies did these quotas destroy?
    http://cius.org/the-eu-sugar-market/...d-information/

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Again - would you mind to provide any evidence for your claim? If you are referring to the refugees in Europe - most civilised countries do acknowledge a right of asylum for people whose human rights are in danger in the countries they come from - and this is good so.
    Yeah, good old calling illegal economic migrants refugees. Then calling anyone who points to the truth racist...



    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Want to come up with an example where the EU forced multiculturalism on any country? I guess sure - there are some basic human rights which EU countries accepted (if they don't, they won't be accepted into the EU) Nobody forced them to join the EU and commit to these human rights. I think however that ratbags like e.g. the populist Hungarian autocrats liked very much the EU subsidies but want to avoid the human rights act. Shame over them.
    Actually there was a push form EU to force illegal immigrant relocation quotas. Countries that refused were supposed to be left without the subsidies... It didn't go through in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Typical Brexit B/S - debunked hundreds of times

    However - there are some EU standards related to fruit size and similar to allow the classification of fruits to make it easier for consumers to compare (not just) apples with apples. If you don't like these standards, fine - but what exactly do they have to do with communism or socialism?
    Actually the cucumber regulation was in place for almost 20 years. And how is it connected to socialism? Socialism usually goes with heavy market regulations as opposed to capitalism that is usually depending on market sorting itself out.
    Last edited by peetter; 16-12-2019 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Hardly a socialist country, the USA subsidises too. The EU certainly is not perfect - Right Wing Viktor Orbán misuses EU farm subsidies for his allies.
    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/e...9-11?r=US&IR=T
    https://www.downsizinggovernment.org...ture/subsidies

    Cannot comment on the forcing upon all EU members of multi-culturalism. Many member states are historically multi-cultural anyway. For example, Belgium has Walloons and Flemish; The UK has Celtic Irish,Welsh Scots and English. The UK opened its doors voluntarily to immigrants from the recent accessions of Eastern European member countries. The EU did not force it. The UK has a considerable number of migrants from non-EU states. The EU did not force it to open its borders.

    Yes the subsidies are misused in many countries, not just Hungary. I've seen subsidies used for some really stupid projects and not many smart ones. Also anything that is done under subsidies ends up way overpriced to normal market rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    …Actually the cucumber regulation was in place for almost 20 years. And how is it connected to socialism? Socialism usually goes with heavy market regulations as opposed to capitalism that is usually depending on market sorting itself out.
    I think Most societies are varying mixes of socialism-capitalism. It sounds like your capitalism is what some may call laissez-faire capitalism. Modern western countries have generally settled on a regulated capitalism - a mixed private-public economy with some state owned enterprises with varying overall regulations to ensure individuals have consumer protection and safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post
    The thing is, it's not just agriculture. There are private companies getting subsidies from EU in markets where there is no need for it. Like hotels, bakeries etc.


    http://cius.org/the-eu-sugar-market/...d-information/
    You don't seem to realize that sugar is an agricultural product ;

    You provided no evidence at all to support your claim. Trumpesk.

    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post


    Yeah, good old calling illegal economic migrants refugees. Then calling anyone who points to the truth racist...
    You seem to argue based on "alternative facts". Trumpesk.

    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post


    Actually there was a push form EU to force illegal immigrant relocation quotas. Countries that refused were supposed to be left without the subsidies... It didn't go through in the end.
    Nonsense. Some EU members proposed a scheme like that - and what would be wrong with this proposal? However - this was never official EU policy. Again - you are found short of truth and facts. Trumpesk.

    Quote Originally Posted by peetter View Post

    Actually the cucumber regulation was in place for almost 20 years. And how is it connected to socialism? Socialism usually goes with heavy market regulations as opposed to capitalism that is usually depending on market sorting itself out.
    Your argument does not compute. Trumpism goes with heavy market regulation as well. Just look at his trade taxes and subsidies. Is he a communist or socialist as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    You don't seem to realize that sugar is an agricultural product ;
    This was clearly an example of quotas that destroyed profitable industry in my country...


    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    You provided no evidence at all to support your claim. Trumpesk.



    You seem to argue based on "alternative facts". Trumpesk.



    Nonsense. Some EU members proposed a scheme like that - and what would be wrong with this proposal? However - this was never official EU policy. Again - you are found short of truth and facts. Trumpesk.



    Your argument does not compute. Trumpism goes with heavy market regulation as well. Just look at his trade taxes and subsidies. Is he a communist or socialist as well?
    I don't see anything alternative on most of the so called refugees being illegal economic immigrants. It is a fact most of them were coming from countries, where there was no war. They bypassed the system by claiming false age and country of origin. They also passed several safe countries on the way. Countries with similar cultural background as well. If you are refugee, you do not choose what country you want to live in based on social welfare system...

    And are you comparing regulation within country/union and imports to make a point regarding regulations? Apples and oranges...

    Anyway your argumentation ended up with calling me Trumpesk on all point, which is typical leftist reaction when no other arguments are left. So I won't really continue this. Let's agree to disagree.
    Last edited by peetter; 16-12-2019 at 02:33 PM.

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