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Thread: AIR - Air NZ.

  1. #13521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    Makes you wonder if these engines will always have a weakness even when patched up and also whether the so called newer Ten version will be durable.
    I see AIR's problems with these engines stretching well past this winter.
    Its not a given that they will get their 330 mins ETOPS rating back either.
    I'm much more optimistic. As I wrote in a previous post I well remember the unreliability of the early 747 engines and planes having to transport spare engines in a '5th engine' manner' all over the world to rescue stuck planes. They eventually fixed all the problems and the 747 eventually became one of the most reliable aircraft ever.

    I suggest that the first iteration of any new technology, be it planes boats trains or phones, will have unforeseen problems. They all get fixed eventually.

  2. #13522
    always learning ... BlackPeter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robomo View Post
    I'm much more optimistic. As I wrote in a previous post I well remember the unreliability of the early 747 engines and planes having to transport spare engines in a '5th engine' manner' all over the world to rescue stuck planes. They eventually fixed all the problems and the 747 eventually became one of the most reliable aircraft ever.

    I suggest that the first iteration of any new technology, be it planes boats trains or phones, will have unforeseen problems. They all get fixed eventually.
    Well, I could think about a number of examples where this theory didn't hold water. Problem is just - given that they are unsuccessful they don't stay for long in peoples minds ...

    Remember the good old W-a-n-k-e-l engine (btw this censor program around here is really stupid ...) which not just (the inventor) NSU but neither GM, Mercedes Benz nor Citroen or Mazda managed to make reliable?

    A little bit further back - remind me when they turned the Zeppelin into a reliable and trust worthy mode of transport?

    Ah yes - and closer to home - what about the Stirling engine?

    I guess it is fair to say that many engine and transport concepts never get off ground, some do but never become reliable and a few mature and succeed. History will tell us into which of these categories the latest RR engines belong. I don't hold my breath.

    Discl: happy non-holder ;
    Last edited by BlackPeter; 12-06-2018 at 07:37 AM.
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  3. #13523
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Well, I could think about a number of examples where this theory didn't hold water. Problem is just - given that they are unsuccessful they don't stay for long in peoples minds ...

    Remember the good old W-a-n-k-e-l engine (btw this censor program around here is really stupid ...) which not just (the inventor) NSU but neither GM, Mercedes Benz nor Citroen or Mazda managed to make reliable?

    A little bit further back - remind me when they turned the Zeppelin into a reliable and trust worthy mode of transport?

    Ah yes - and closer to home - what about the Stirling engine?

    I guess it is fair to say that many engine and transport concepts never get off ground, some do but never become reliable and a few mature and succeed. History will tell us into which of these categories the latest RR engines belong. I don't hold my breath.

    Discl: happy non-holder ;
    1991 Le Mans 24 hour winner was a rotary engine . That’s a race that breaks a lot of engines... so arguably it can be made reliable .

  4. #13524
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoploss View Post
    1991 Le Mans 24 hour winner was a rotary engine . That’s a race that breaks a lot of engines... so arguably it can be made reliable .
    Well, RR better hope it doesn't take 50 years with their new turbines to get one of them accidentally reliable . And BTW - one engine surviving one race does not prove that it is possible to manufacture a reliable rotary engine in volumes ...
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  5. #13525
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robomo View Post
    I'm much more optimistic. As I wrote in a previous post I well remember the unreliability of the early 747 engines and planes having to transport spare engines in a '5th engine' manner' all over the world to rescue stuck planes. They eventually fixed all the problems and the 747 eventually became one of the most reliable aircraft ever.

    I suggest that the first iteration of any new technology, be it planes boats trains or phones, will have unforeseen problems. They all get fixed eventually.

    A fleet of 787's operating properly would be a very good thing where fuel prices are now because that's when I believe the capex invested in them gives proper payback in terms of operational efficiency but the key question is how long does this whole fleet overhaul process take ? Let's not kid ourselves, all those engines will need to be overhauled.
    Air announcing 3-5% international fare increases and holding an institutional investor day on 14th. We are seeing very little transparency from AIR on how long they expect the process to take. Maybe they'll give us some clue during the forthcoming investor day or maybe they really have no idea and are at the mercy of limited RR overhaul capability and massive worldwide demand ?
    Last edited by Beagle; 12-06-2018 at 09:55 AM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:2: “Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
    Ben Graham - In the short run the market is a voting machine but in the long run the market is a weighing machine

  6. #13526
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    ...
    Remember the good old W-a-n-k-e-l engine (btw this censor program around here is really stupid ...) which not just (the inventor) NSU but neither GM, Mercedes Benz nor Citroen or Mazda managed to make reliable?......
    Not quite true. When Suzuki developed the ****le engine for their motorcycles, they did overcome the seal reliability issue by using carbon seals and a fusion coating in the chamber. they sold this design to Mazda for use in the 13 series engines.

    What they could never overcome were the economy and emission issues. ****les are thirsty, and could never meet any of the imposed emission standards.

  7. #13527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jantar View Post
    Not quite true. When Suzuki developed the ****le engine for their motorcycles, they did overcome the seal reliability issue by using carbon seals and a fusion coating in the chamber. they sold this design to Mazda for use in the 13 series engines.

    What they could never overcome were the economy and emission issues. ****les are thirsty, and could never meet any of the imposed emission standards.
    Thanks for confirming my point ... but yes, I know the W_ankel-engine always had its fans. Interesting technology as well. And this is absolutely o.k. as long as I don't need to drive (or fly ) with it or pay the bills ... Same thing with the RR engines ...
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  8. #13528
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    whilst you all chat about wankel rotary engines RR have announced that they have now discovered a "similar" issue [to the one in Package C] in the Package B engines.

    Probably does not make AirNZ woes any worse (I think they have non of these)!

    I also hear that AirNZ are upping their international fares
    om mani peme hum

  9. #13529
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    Quote Originally Posted by greater fool View Post
    Interesting - so how are they fixing and at the same time redesign all their broken engines when they make at the same time 10% of their staff redundant because they can't afford to pay their salaries anymore?
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  10. #13530
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Interesting - so how are they fixing and at the same time redesign all their broken engines when they make at the same time 10% of their staff redundant because they can't afford to pay their salaries anymore?
    Apparently they have increased staff numbers 300% in the engine overhaul division repairing these faulty engines.
    Ecclesiastes 11:2: “Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
    Ben Graham - In the short run the market is a voting machine but in the long run the market is a weighing machine

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