AIR - Air NZ.

[iceman]

That would mean fare increases to cover the seats that were sold and then passengers did not turn up. The reasons for not fronting are numerous . The airlines only overbook to a point that these situations shouldn't occur but do get caught out occasionally. The offer of money usually solves the situation.

With this United incident and the AIR one, it wasn't the fact that it happened but how it was handled from the start until the end.

And with airfares specials very low, we will see more of this. I have just had to change a domestic airfare and could simply book a new ticket online for $59 whereas I phone call to Air NZ to change the old ticket would have cost $50 service fee. So my previous booking is still active and I have no intention of using it. Airlines simply have to overbook to take advantage of this situation but as you point out 777, how they do it is paramount to how the customers feel about it

[Baa_Baa]

There is a difference between overbooking passenger seats and then having to kick one/some off when they can't seat all the bookings ... and fully booking a flight with passengers and having to kick one/some off when they have to transport staff.

It seems both United and AIR were not overbooked per se, they were fully booked and then had to transport staff, probably unexpectedly, which took precedence over paying passengers.

[percy]

And with airfares specials very low, we will see more of this. I have just had to change a domestic airfare and could simply book a new ticket online for $59 whereas I phone call to Air NZ to change the old ticket would have cost $50 service fee. So my previous booking is still active and I have no intention of using it. Airlines simply have to overbook to take advantage of this situation but as you point out 777, how they do it is paramount to how the customers feel about it

Iceman,
What is your opinon of these $50 "service fess" to change a booking?
I would point out the rental car firm I use, let me transfer my deposit to another trip,if used within a year.
Why do airlines have to be so user unfriendly?
In my modest school library supply business, I tell librarians to deduct any book they don't want, from the invoice and post it back to me.If I give them what they want,I get what I want.

[Beagle]

It isnt better than being on the flight that you have bought a seat for. Seems a terrible practice no matter how long it has existed.
The airlines need to end it, and stop overbooking.

I know its been going on for a very long time in the U.S. but the case we saw with AIR N.Z. was with regard to the (presumably unscheduled due to unforeseen events, either weather or mechanical related), need to transport a crew to another point in their network. Aircraft are extremely complex with for example around 30,000 individual parts in a single Rolls Royce Trent engine powering one of AIR's dreamliners. You will get engineering issues from time to time, this is an inescapable reality of operating a fleet of highly complex aircraft. Another fact is the older the aircraft are, generally the less reliable they are which is why I won't fly in any of Jetstar's relics.
What separates airlines in terms of their standards is how they treat passengers when the inevitable unforeseen circumstances crop up. Its no surprise that Jetstar cop a lot of flak for their cavalier attitude.
From time to time AIR will cop some flak because one of their staff could have done better. One person was seriously inconvenienced so 171 people the next day wouldn't be. It could have been handled better. That happens from time to time when you employ a workforce of ~ 11,000 people. I have yet to see any genuine evidence of a systemic issue of overbooking with AIR just for the sake of maximizing their profit.

There is a difference between overbooking passenger seats and then having to kick one/some off when they can't seat all the bookings ... and fully booking a flight with passengers and having to kick one/some off when they have to transport staff.

It seems both United and AIR were not overbooked per se, they were fully booked and then had to transport staff, probably unexpectedly, which took precedence over paying passengers.

United do overbook on a regular basis but as you say in this instance that wasn't the case.
I have no issues with over-booking provided its handled in a professional way. I like Delta's approach where at the point of making your booking you are asked at what price you are prepared to be re-accommodated. You can tick boxes $200, $300, $400 or $500 or name your own price in a blank space. If you fill in $10,000 in the blank space you are very unlikely to ever be asked to give up your seat

[Robomo]

I suspect there is some double dipping by AIR and other airlines with bookings.

Low cost basic airfares are generally non-refundable so if you don't turn up you forfeit your fare, regardless of whether you cancel it or not. As iceman says why bother cancelling if there is absolutely no advantage to the customer? If the airline can sell a 'last minute' or 'standby' fare, then they have sold the seat twice.

High cost fully refundable fares have a premium built-in to cover the cost of a 'no show'. In the great majority of cases the 'no show' will simply be travelling on a later flight, still at that premium fare. The airline can still sell the seat to 'last minute' or 'standby' customers once the check-in time time has passed.

I almost always travel domestic AIR on a flexi-plus fare as my timetable can often change at the last minute. I need the flexibility so I pay more, but that's just the cost of business. If I turn up at the airport well before my booked flight I can transfer to an earlier flight if a seat is available at no extra cost. If the plane is fully booked then I just go on 'standby' and in most cases someone does not turn up so I get their seat and the airline can then sell my vacated seat on the later flight - profitable double selling of that seat if it's sold. Anecdotally from conversations with check-in staff the no-shows are split between high-paying business/govt people who lose nothing and people with a really cheap fare who simply cancelling - they don't get their money back so why bother?

I've flown more than a thousand sectors over the past 15 years and only been denied boarding once because of overbooking (might have been urgent dead-heading crew for all I know). Got on the next flight, 3 hours late and was well compensated.

Denied boarding is not a great problem in this part of the world. The airlines do quite well with being able to 'double sell' at least some no-show seats so I don't think they suffer financially from it.

Nevertheless, given what has happened with United it would be a good question to put to AIR at the next AGM what the financial impact is!

[iceman]

Iceman,
What is your opinon of these $50 "service fess" to change a booking?
I would point out the rental car firm I use, let me transfer my deposit to another trip,if used within a year.
Why do airlines have to be so user unfriendly?
In my modest school library supply business, I tell librarians to deduct any book they don't want, from the invoice and post it back to me.If I give them what they want,I get what I want.

I find them quite excessive Percy but I do understand that they are all part of the business of super low airfares. I hardly ever book anything other than fully-flexi tickets due to the nature of my travel being such that they regularly change at short notice. This time I didn't. The downside for the airlines themselves from these high service fees is that the incentive for people to cancel tickets they don't intend to use is largely gone and the airlines respond by overbookings !!

[Zaphod]

Late last year Air NZ trialled an invitation only domestic flexible travel booking service that allowed you to change flights regardless of the fare class booked, all for a one-off membership fee. This was very useful for seat-only fares which traditionally couldn't be changed without paying more in change fees than the fare was worth, however I haven't heard whether the system is going to be formally launched subsequent to this trial.

[RTFQ]

Changing the subject slightly. Talked to an engineer recently and he advised that airlines are now using 3D printers to manufacture parts. Rather than keep a large parts inventory all that is required is an IP approval, software loaded into machine and presto a part is made. This includes complex engine parts. Times are a changing.

[Beagle]

Changing the subject slightly. Talked to an engineer recently and he advised that airlines are now using 3D printers to manufacture parts. Rather than keep a large parts inventory all that is required is an IP approval, software loaded into machine and presto a part is made. This includes complex engine parts. Times are a changing.

Breath of fresh AIR, yes we need a topic change. Its amazing this whole 3D printer thing and I know AIR are using them now for parts and saves a lot on logistical problems too in terms of production time and shipping. Russians even 3D printing entire low cost homes with a 3D printer in about 24 hours now for only $10K. Maybe this is a way to ease Auckland's accommodation crisis ?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...02C4&FORM=VIRE

[RTFQ]

From a TA perspective a tri-angle has formed and breakout eminent, hopefully up. Historically, last 5 yrs Oct to Apr has seen an up tick then a decline.