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  1. #1291
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    Have you explained to the various manufacturers who collectively are pouring billions into EV research and development, that they are wasting their time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    "....And a big IF we did end up short of electricity we have Tiwai point to give a long notice to to reduce usage from the current re 610 MW (about 15%) of NZ power.
    Have you considered the downside of shutting down Tiwai? Even so, how do you propose to transport that electricity to the North Island where most of it is needed.

    The argument that the R&D must be justified if there are millions being poured into it is just a red herring.

    The equivalent of billions (in todays dollars) was poured into the titanic... obviously money well spent.

    And these R&D funds come predominantly from governments (consolidated funds with no ownership), the odd individual wealthy nutter, and from the same type of people wise enough to invest long-term in companies like European Pacific Investments and Judge Corp etc.

  2. #1292
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    Reducing Tiwai i said.
    This looks great
    Report calls for accelerated electrification to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, saying a shift to achieve 100% renewable electricity by 2035 is too costly
    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/1007...s-saying-shift

  3. #1293
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    Tagged along with a friend to test drive a Nissan Leaf ( 2016 i think) with a 30KW battery. Both enjoyed the experience. Certainly was a lightbulb moment when accelerating swiftly and quietly(so quiet we were doing 120 when it felt like 80Km!) realising that no pollution was coming out the back.

    Talking to the dealer who has had a lot of experience with hybrids previously and upon my asking re the future cost for replacing /renovating EV batteries he said Nissan(Hybrid) Prius batteries used to cost up to $10,000 to replace whereas now about $2000 and surmising cost reduction for Leaf batteries in future. Havn't tried to verify those Prius figs atpit.
    Last edited by Joshuatree; 16-07-2019 at 07:09 PM.

  4. #1294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaygor1 View Post
    Yeah, so far off the pace, it's not even debatable.

    https://www.instituteforenergyresear...esel-vehicles/
    You quote a reference to an article on the German market? What percentage of renewable power is generated in Germany? I don't know the answer. But in NZ the answer is about 85%. And that means your picture of a Leaf plugged into Huntly is spurious.

    SNOOPY
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  5. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    Interesting theory, but no. The weight difference is small, couldn't find the weight figures for the models above, but for the previous generation corollas the hybrid is only 80kgs heavier than the non-hybrid. 1285 vs 1365kgs = 6% heavier.
    It doesn't matter what the weight difference is. I am aware that batteries are getting more energy dense and the size of an electric motor is getting smaller for the same power output. The fact is that a hybrid is carrying around an extra motor and battery pack that a pure ICE car isn't. The lighter that electric motor and battery pack is, the better. But it is still extra weight nevertheless.

    You have to be careful with comparing specs too. In the current model Corolla Hybrid, the spare wheel, which is still in the ICE version, has been deleted. So you can't be sure that the difference in weight of both versions is solely due to the hybrid powertrain and battery. Sometimes the tyres are different, with those standard on the hybrid geared towards minimising rolling resistance at the expense of ultimate grip. Sometimes the hybrid car uses a smaller lighter ICE engine to partner with the electric drive. The 80kg difference may not be an apples with apples comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    As for your turning corners/hills etc.. its the exact same scenario for the ICE vs the hybrid, the physics of going round corners don't change with fuel type.
    Correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    So again, we are down to a 6% weight difference. And as you can see from the figures, the difference is way more than 6%.
    But you are assuming the EPA highway test is a realistic representation of real highways. I doubt that very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    What the hybrid loses on the way up the hill it gains some/most of back on the way down. What the ICE loses in fuel economy (and gains in Grav potential energy) on the way up.. it mostly wastes on the way down.. everytime you come to a corner on the way down where you have to brake the ICE loses momentum as heat via the brakes, while the hybrid (potentially) charges the battery and then uses that energy to accelerate out of the corner while the ICE has to burn gas to accelerate out of the corner.
    Yes, hilly terrain is where hybrids should be at their best fuel savings wise compared with a pure ICE car. But without hills you have more weight to accelerate in both changes in speed and changes in direction. If the weight is higher then, everything else being equal, you must use more fuel in the hybrid. The laws of Physics allow no other outcome.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 16-07-2019 at 08:39 PM.
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  6. #1296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaygor1 View Post
    What Vag fails to recognise is that for a similar weight (even assuming the source of his/her figures have an ounce of credibility), the e-vehicle doesn't have the distance.

    I could strip the motor out of any type of vehicle and then get the missus to push it.
    The theory falls over because, even though it is so much lighter, and as such much more efficient, the distance the car would travel is about 4cm before the energy source needed significant time to recharge... running into hours if not days or weeks.

    Obviously from above, the recharge time is very important because if she could recharge in 1/10,000 of a second then the above might still be viable.
    Even for going half the distance, if an e-vehicle could recharge from empty in just 15 minutes, that is still 200% longer than filling up with petrol... 400%++ if you take the distance per refill into account.
    I think it very unlikely that an EV will ever be able to compete in a road race from one end of NZ to the other. The refuelling time will sink the EV's race pace , no matter how ludicrously fast that EV is when driving. But that isn't the point. Most people do not drive more than 500km in a day. I think that a range of 200km would suit most people 95% of the time, provided you had your own charger to top up from at the end of the day. And such cars are available second hand, for under $50k now: e.g. Nissan Leaf mk2

    SNOOPY
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  7. #1297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    But you are assuming the EPA highway test is a realistic representation of real highways. I doubt that very much.
    The epa tests were updated several times to make them more realistic of real world use.
    Regardless, both the ICE and hybrid data is obtained from the same test cycle,

    Yes, hilly terrain is where hybrids should be at their best fuel savings wise compared with a pure ICE car. But without hills you have more weight to accelerate in both changes in speed and changes in direction. If the weight is higher then, everything else being equal, you must use more fuel in the hybrid. The laws of Physics allow no other outcome.

    SNOOPY
    You have completely overlooked that the hybrid runs its more efficient motor (atkinson cycle) only at a carefully engineered load point for maximum efficiency, while the otto cycle engine in the pure ICE is run at whatever load the driver demands at that moment.

    And i'm not sure hilly terrain is where a hybrid would be at its best, stop start city traffic seems like a far better candidate, the more often you are braking the more often the hybrid can recover energy, and the more time the ICE spends running at almost zero efficiency then wasting all its momentum as heat.

    Also noticed that in the new european corolla range the 2L hybrid motor is the highest performance option (180 hp, vs the 1.6L pure ICE 132hp option ) and even in the european WLTP test cycle (newest and based on real world driving) it gets 3.7l/100km vs the best of the ICEs 5.2L/100km (from a 1.2L turbo making a paltry 114hp ).

    Sorry boys, the pure ICE is a dying breed, and rightly so.

  8. #1298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    The epa tests were updated several times to make them more realistic of real world use.
    Regardless, both the ICE and hybrid data is obtained from the same test cycle,



    You have completely overlooked that the hybrid runs its more efficient motor (atkinson cycle) only at a carefully engineered load point for maximum efficiency, while the otto cycle engine in the pure ICE is run at whatever load the driver demands at that moment.

    And i'm not sure hilly terrain is where a hybrid would be at its best, stop start city traffic seems like a far better candidate, the more often you are braking the more often the hybrid can recover energy, and the more time the ICE spends running at almost zero efficiency then wasting all its momentum as heat.

    Also noticed that in the new european corolla range the 2L hybrid motor is the highest performance option (180 hp, vs the 1.6L pure ICE 132hp option ) and even in the european WLTP test cycle (newest and based on real world driving) it gets 3.7l/100km vs the best of the ICEs 5.2L/100km (from a 1.2L turbo making a paltry 114hp ).

    Sorry boys, the pure ICE is a dying breed, and rightly so.
    Indeed. Compared to an EV an ICE is an overweight hunk of junk. Admittedly it served us well for more than a century, but it's time to bury it.

  9. #1299
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    Indeed. Compared to an EV an ICE is an overweight hunk of junk. Admittedly it served us well for more than a century, but it's time to bury it.
    No, EVs still have a long way to come to completely displace ICEs. In fact in some countries you'll never get rid of ICEs, they'll be the powerplants generating the electricity to charge the EVs. And overweight is definately not the tag to apply to an ICe compared to an EV. Its the EV that needs the jenny craig membership.

    The hybrids will be the stop-gap measure that is better than both a pure ICE and a pure EV for a few more years at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Tagged along with a friend to test drive a Nissan Leaf ( 2016 i think) with a 30KW battery. Both enjoyed the experience. Certainly was a lightbulb moment when accelerating swiftly and quietly(so quiet we were doing 120 when it felt like 80Km!) realising that no pollution was coming out the back.

    Talking to the dealer who has had a lot of experience with hybrids previously and upon my asking re the future cost for replacing /renovating EV batteries he said Nissan(Hybrid) Prius batteries used to cost up to $10,000 to replace whereas now about $2000 and surmising cost reduction for Leaf batteries in future. Havn't tried to verify those Prius figs atpit.
    Sounds like you were impressed-they seem to cope fine with NZ highways.
    Tesla model 3 looks yet a lot more fun.Having seen on youtube what a small pothole can do to the performance model -narrow low profile tyres and a destroyed wheel . I wonder if anyone has experienced a drive in the model 3

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    Nope good luck there.Tesla not in my vision personally atpit But feedback driving one would be int for sure.. One annoying thing about the Leaf as others prob already know, there is no spare tyre .You spray tyre sealant in and use an electric pump(?), not sure if its provided.

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  13. #1303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    The epa tests were updated several times to make them more realistic of real world use.
    Regardless, both the ICE and hybrid data is obtained from the same test cycle,
    Yes, but the standards tend to be 'prescriptive' driving at different constant speeds for a set time, for example. If you look at the typical US road they are rather straighter than we get in NZ. Also the fact that the tests are prescriptive means that car makers can gear their cars to do well in the tests, whereas that same gearing might not be so clever in real world use. Cars sold on the basis of their economy, like hybrids, give makers a greater incentive to design the car to do well at a particular set of tests regardless of what their real world performance is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    You have completely overlooked that the hybrid runs its more efficient motor (atkinson cycle) only at a carefully engineered load point for maximum efficiency, while the otto cycle engine in the pure ICE is run at whatever load the driver demands at that moment.
    Very good point. The Atkinson cycle engine is designed to use different valve timing to allow engines to run leaner and so burn less fuel. The disadvantage is that such engines offer reduced low speed torque and that means less efficient acceleration. Pairing an Atkinson engine with an electric one, which has maximum torque available from a standstill, is an efficient combination.

    Of course you can have a hybrid that does not utilise an Atkinson ICE component. I see Toyota have used Atkinson engines in their hybrids from the beginning of the Prius in 1997. I see the latest generation 3 Honda Insight (2019 model) uses an Atkinson engine too. Not sure about the earlier Honda Insights though. Anyone know?

    I think Peugeot have produced a diesel hybrid. Not sure if they made use of Atkinson principles either.

    Nevertheless I would venture to suggest that a hybrid power train is still heavier than a lightweight ICE power plant or a modern EV power plant. The hybrid concept still means you have to cart around two motors to do the job of one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    And i'm not sure hilly terrain is where a hybrid would be at its best, stop start city traffic seems like a far better candidate, the more often you are braking the more often the hybrid can recover energy, and the more time the ICE spends running at almost zero efficiency then wasting all its momentum as heat.
    My comment on hilly terrain being the best relatively advantageous situation for a hybrid car was based only on open road use. You are right in that the biggest relative gain would be in stop start city driving, which I guess is why you see so many hybrid taxis these days.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 18-07-2019 at 08:37 AM.
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  14. #1304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Nope good luck there.Tesla not in my vision personally atpit But feedback driving one would be int for sure.. One annoying thing about the Leaf as others prob already know, there is no spare tyre .You spray tyre sealant in and use an electric pump(?), not sure if its provided.
    There are many thousands of cars carting spare wheels around, day after day - thousands of kilometres - for no real reason. Punctures are no longer common, and haven't been for the last fifty years. Most drivers have probably never experienced a puncture, yet if purchasing an import vehicle the first thing most do is throw away the lightweight emergency space-saver wheel and find a heavy, bulky spare wheel to drag about the place. Nearly everyone carries a mobile phone to organise repair if needed. Not only that - many modern motorists would have no idea how to jack a vehicle and change a wheel. It is some sort of paranoia that makes us drive around with a spare. When did you last have a puncture to be concerned about a spare wheel? I doubt if it would have been in the last twenty years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Yes, but the standards tend to be 'prescriptive' driving at different constant speeds for a set time, for example. If you look at the typical US road they are rather straighter than we get in NZ. Also the fact that the tests are prescriptive means that car makers can gear their cars to do well in the tests, whereas that same gearing might not be so clever in real world use. Cars sold on the basis of their economy, like hybrids, give makers a greater incentive to design the car to do well at a particular set of tests regardless of what their real world performance is.
    https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/ftp75.php
    https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/hwfet.php

    I don't see much constant speed in either of those test cycles. The old 1970s and 1980s EPA tests were, but like I said previously, they have been revised several times since then. (except for some reason they still use the old test for determining the CAFE level for a manufacturer)


    Nevertheless I would venture to suggest that a hybrid power train is still heavier than a lightweight ICE power plant or a modern EV power plant. The hybrid concept still means you have to cart around two motors to do the job of one.
    No, an ICE motor, and and Electric motor/generator. And the efficiency gains from using the generator function to be able to run the ICE more efficiently more than compensate for the minor extra weight.

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