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  1. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Hi Blackcap, you may already have done so, but can you post a link to the Autobild article? I don't think it is a reasonable argument to say that very new EV increases the coal use at Huntly. A working assumption would be that EVs, like everything else, are running on 80% renewable electricity. In reality it is probably better than that as most EV owners are probably charging overnight taking advantage of off-peak discounts. I've had my EV for more than a year now and it is on target to be cost-effective as a commuter car
    Hi Biscuit, article is here: https://www.autobild.de/artikel/co2-...h-3729677.html

    Tis in German you may have to do a translate on it and see if it still resembles some sense. German grammar is different to English.

    Yes agree working assumption, but the more EV's that run the more that 80% goes to 79 and or 78 etc. Even using at night increases the night load which means more water gets used at the dams.

    I am sure my ICE vehicle will be more cost effective than your EV for some years to come if you calculate all costs including the depreciation. If you did an honest DCF over the lifetime of the vehicles I am not sure who is better off. I suspect myself. (I drive about 10k a year so drive less than most)

    Once RUC or other charges hit the EV's they will become horrendously expensive. I am not switching to an EV as long as I do not have to. (Especially since they are worse for the environment. EV drivers should be ashamed of themselves! )

  2. #1112
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    yes I think a few companies that switched to Prius's have now moved on from them. Might be that they were not as cost effective as first thought and/or discovered they were not so "green" after all. WPac seemed to have moved to Mondeo's and ASB Mazdas or Hyundai's

  3. #1113
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Hi Biscuit, article is here: https://www.autobild.de/artikel/co2-...h-3729677.html

    Tis in German you may have to do a translate on it and see if it still resembles some sense. German grammar is different to English.

    Yes agree working assumption, but the more EV's that run the more that 80% goes to 79 and or 78 etc. Even using at night increases the night load which means more water gets used at the dams.

    I am sure my ICE vehicle will be more cost effective than your EV for some years to come if you calculate all costs including the depreciation. If you did an honest DCF over the lifetime of the vehicles I am not sure who is better off. I suspect myself. (I drive about 10k a year so drive less than most)

    Once RUC or other charges hit the EV's they will become horrendously expensive. I am not switching to an EV as long as I do not have to. (Especially since they are worse for the environment. EV drivers should be ashamed of themselves! )
    Thanks for the link. When I bought the EV, I calculated cost assuming 5 year life-time and 100% depreciation. I do 30K pa commute. If it lasts longer than 5 years or still has some resale, I reckon I will be better off than any other reasonable alternative. Five year life time not so environmentally friendly. However, I like the economy and the technology which is obviously vastly superior to ICE technology.

  4. #1114
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Hi Biscuit, article is here: https://www.autobild.de/artikel/co2-...h-3729677.html

    Tis in German you may have to do a translate on it and see if it still resembles some sense. German grammar is different to English.

    Yes agree working assumption, but the more EV's that run the more that 80% goes to 79 and or 78 etc. Even using at night increases the night load which means more water gets used at the dams.

    I am sure my ICE vehicle will be more cost effective than your EV for some years to come if you calculate all costs including the depreciation. If you did an honest DCF over the lifetime of the vehicles I am not sure who is better off. I suspect myself. (I drive about 10k a year so drive less than most)

    Once RUC or other charges hit the EV's they will become horrendously expensive. I am not switching to an EV as long as I do not have to. (Especially since they are worse for the environment. EV drivers should be ashamed of themselves! )
    I'm not convinced the German research would be relevant for NZ as our power generation and climate is quite different. There are other articles that point out NZ is the perfect country to have EV because of our mild climate and high renewable energy source. I couldn't find if that German article mentioned the carbon cost (if for NZ's case) of fossil fuel in NZ ? I'm talking the tanker transportation of fuel, trucking and delivering to the retail pump stations. Then factor the cost where commuters have to drive to the petro station to fill up vs the EV you charge at home? Even the time factor alone (increase human productivity can be measured).

    Night rate prices for electricity is low for the simple reason the hydro dams can't be turned off. The shift of night rate charging would be minimal. Sure there will be a slight increase in price of electricity, but when you add up the cost associated to bringing fossil fuel to the car? on a total 'SUM', going to EV should reduce the carbon emission impact.

    Labour Party won't kill the goose by hiking up RUC to the extreme on EV. Their approach is to penalise those that with activities that emit carbon while trying to incentivise activities that reduce carbon. Perhaps the $ collected from carbon tax would go towards industry (Ardern mentioned planting trees, cleaning up industry that emits too much carbon, etc).

  5. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Hi Biscuit, article is here: https://www.autobild.de/artikel/co2-...h-3729677.html

    Tis in German you may have to do a translate on it and see if it still resembles some sense. German grammar is different to English.

    Yes agree working assumption, but the more EV's that run the more that 80% goes to 79 and or 78 etc. Even using at night increases the night load which means more water gets used at the dams.

    I am sure my ICE vehicle will be more cost effective than your EV for some years to come if you calculate all costs including the depreciation. If you did an honest DCF over the lifetime of the vehicles I am not sure who is better off. I suspect myself. (I drive about 10k a year so drive less than most)

    Once RUC or other charges hit the EV's they will become horrendously expensive. I am not switching to an EV as long as I do not have to. (Especially since they are worse for the environment. EV drivers should be ashamed of themselves! )
    Its simply not believable that EV's can be worse for the environment in NZ.You are neglecting the health gains that will be a consequence of reduced toxic emissions that would result-particularly in cities/busy roads.
    The less petrol that has to be imported/manufactured and transported .The waste oil at servicing,cold starting and unburnt fuel from the exhaust.The cleaning of buildings in cities.
    We live in an ideal country for electric.
    As demand increases we will see more green generation in preference to burning fossil fuels.
    More solar panels will be fitted as costs decrease-and having an EV with solar panels will give free transport at the current time.
    I dont know about hydro dams spilling excess water at times and waste energy when thermal plants switch on and off but the Industry does give discounts for night use so must be gains in efficiency with more charging at cheap rates.
    I am really looking forward to investing in an EV when the time is right for me

  6. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Its simply not believable that EV's can be worse for the environment in NZ......
    The Autobild article doesn't say that EVs have a higher carbon footprint than ICE. In Germany they have 33% renewable and even then, EVs generally have lower lifetime CO2 emissions than ICE. The article is interesting in highlighting that every vehicle, even EVs, have a high lifetime carbon footprint. The footprint can be reduced by using smaller vehicles and keeping them longer whether EV or ICE. Also, obviously, having efficient renewable electricity supply combined with EVs is best.

  7. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post

    Night rate prices for electricity is low for the simple reason the hydro dams can't be turned off.
    They can certainly be throttled down to the minimum flow that the resource consent allows for the river, and if those consents are eliminated they probably could be shut right down overnight, this is why overnight in summer we ship north island power down south.. because the south island hydro plants have been throttled down to minimum to keep the limited amount of rain water in the lakes to use later, North island hydro doesn't have much storage.. between the high minimum flow required on the waikato river and the fact the storage lakes/dams simply can't store much (lakes too small, dams too low).
    Also, saying nz has a high renewable electricity generation doesn't actually matter, its where the marginal unit of power comes from that matters. We don't have enough renewable generation to meet our existing usage, so any additional electricity demand either needs to come from new renewables, or it comes from non-renewable sources.

    As for your commetns about the Labour party.. HA!
    [/QUOTE]

  8. #1118
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    Vagabond47:

    The cost of the network infrastructure and generation for electricity in NZ is driven none other than for "Peak Demand". So if EV owners are charging their cars in the DAYTIME, then yes that will cause a huge demand triggering fossil fuel generation. But that's not what EV owners do ; well at least not in Christchurch where the low night rate price is less than 1/2 the price of most day rates around NZ. You would be a fool to charge at peak day rates. But the real issue is how much uptake will EV be in NZ? In my opinion, the baseload supply at off peak night time is sufficient to charge future EVs that go on the road. Keep in mind, the change to EV will take many decades giving NZ plenty of time to ramp up more renewable electrical generation (ie. more windmills, homes with solar PV, etc).

  9. #1119
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    There are two seperate issues around Electricity. One is peak demand, which is about 7pm on a winters night. The other is total generation.. the lakes are a battery, once the water has gone thru the turbine, its gone, time of day or night doesn't matter. If we use that battery to charge EV batteries, we can't use it to power homes and industry later.. Hence my comment about marginal consumption.. its all fossil fuelled. EV adoption will probably result in more fossil fuels burnt in power stations, but hopefully less and burnt more efficiently than in cars. But don't fool yourself, we can't just magic up more electricity from our hydro system, and so far there is no new hydro generation planned thats going ahead.

  10. #1120
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    @ Vagabond47:

    From my basic observation, i'm seeing a major uptake of Solar PV use in NZ and as the years go by, more and more houses will have it. Consider the cumulative effect of solar PV all over NZ? It's a big one because it poses a threat to major electricity generators (in that the buy back rates are set so low that users would be better off wasting it or simply... put it in the EV battery. Just Google search and read why NZ is very ideal for EV adoption, and as I said before, it's not like all of a sudden every vehicle will be an EV because people don't change cars that often enough for EV adoption to occur quickly. When that moment comes, the price of fossil fuel will be so high (because of the carbon taxation) that it's only incentive for ICE vehicles is the long distance driving.

    I'm uncertain where this 'magic' up demand of electricity would come from. If T'wai Point aluminium smelter would to shut down, that would instantly give a 12% supply boost of power for all of NZ.

  11. #1121
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    Nice, close down Tiwai point so you can pretend to be green, while actually pushing aluminium production (to make lots of bits of your EV - inverter casing, motor and transmission casing, cooling system parts, etc) offshore to fossil fueled aluminium smelters, and put large numbers of people in Southland out of work.. then tax them for being too poor to afford an EV!

    Solar poses little threat to electricity generators until Solar PV + a battery big enough to power the house for a couple of days become cheap enough to make disconnecting from the grid an option.

  12. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    Nice, close down Tiwai point so you can pretend to be green, while actually pushing aluminium production (to make lots of bits of your EV - inverter casing, motor and transmission casing, cooling system parts, etc) offshore to fossil fueled aluminium smelters, and put large numbers of people in Southland out of work.. then tax them for being too poor to afford an EV!

    Solar poses little threat to electricity generators until Solar PV + a battery big enough to power the house for a couple of days become cheap enough to make disconnecting from the grid an option.
    I don't think you're giving EV a chance. But let me explain about Rio Tinto's TWai point aluminium operation. Their sole reason for the plant is access cheap renewable electricity. If they choose to close, it would be due to moving operations to a cheaper production in Asia where environmental laws are slack. Growing up in Canada, Alcan was a direct venture between Australia and Canada. Again in similar fashion the reason why Rio Tinto sends their bauxite to BC, Canada is none other.. CHEAP renewable electricity. Places like Kitimaat they built their own hydro dam for the sole purpose of aluminium production. If aluminium production is an issue for EV, then ICE is also guilty in steel production which is also highly energy intensive (mainly from coal burning).

    As for solar PV, no one is advocating it will 100% supply the power of a typical home. What solar PV does in NZ installations is it SUPPLEMENTS the power use so there's less demand on the grid. Even the Electricity Authority of NZ has come out to say with all the different retailers in NZ to supply electricity, a lot of them would be closed up if the solar PV uptake gain became mandatory. We know certain areas in NZ electricity retailers have imposed a "Solar Tax" for grid tied solar PV setups. The retailers get nothing from it and view it as more of an inconvenience.

    Again i'll reiterate, there's plenty of power generation in NZ for future EV. It just all depends on 'when' EV will be plugged in.

  13. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    I don't think you're giving EV a chance.
    Quite the opposite, I'm quite keen on an EV once they become more affordable and practical. At the moment they are either nissan leaf/I-miev rubbish, or have 6 figure pricetags attached like the Teslas. I was very keen on a Tesla model 3, even put a reservation down for one.. till I actually went and sat in one in the Hollywood Tesla store about a year ago (and the value proposition has just got worse since then) . Hopefully my next car will be an EV, (the current ICE is in for its last major service tomorrow, then hopefully 4 or 5 years of trouble free motoring again) but so far they are not cost effective and practical. A leaf is arguably cost effective depending on how long you think it'll last, but no range and no performance counts it out for me.

  14. #1124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    Quite the opposite, I'm quite keen on an EV once they become more affordable and practical. At the moment they are either nissan leaf/I-miev rubbish, or have 6 figure pricetags attached like the Teslas. I was very keen on a Tesla model 3, even put a reservation down for one.. till I actually went and sat in one in the Hollywood Tesla store about a year ago (and the value proposition has just got worse since then) . Hopefully my next car will be an EV, (the current ICE is in for its last major service tomorrow, then hopefully 4 or 5 years of trouble free motoring again) but so far they are not cost effective and practical. A leaf is arguably cost effective depending on how long you think it'll last, but no range and no performance counts it out for me.
    Kia Nero EV is expected to arrive this month.
    2019 Leaf Plus has 226 miles range coupled with improved performance(not sure when it will arrive here).
    I really need to test drive to see if they perform as good as the reviews.

    Just looked at installing solar this morning and will be having an installer visit soon.
    Final decision not yet made-as I live in Northland the economics hopefully may make investment sense(I dont need to borrow to do this)
    PS-I expect the gentailers will be increasing prices ,
    Last edited by fish; 01-03-2019 at 12:23 PM.

  15. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    yes I think a few companies that switched to Prius's have now moved on from them. Might be that they were not as cost effective as first thought and/or discovered they were not so "green" after all. WPac seemed to have moved to Mondeo's and ASB Mazdas or Hyundai's
    If you factor in the high initial capital cost for a Prius compared to a Mondeo, Mazda 6 or a Hyundai and then the FBT payable for the private use again based on that initial higher capital cost then it simply doesn’t work out any cheaper to operate for fleets (FBT also applies for leased vehicles). That applies to EVs as well but interestingly a Ford Ranger, Toyota Hilux or a VW Amarok may not be a passenger vehicle under FBT rules as it was primarily built for purpose of carting around goods (although you’d wonder with all these Merc X Class double cabs how much that really applies).

    Ergo lots of turbo diesel utilities not many Prius and EVs.

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