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  1. #1246
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Who can afford that kind of money - only teh virtuous rich. Enriched by subsidised road taxes and shortly they will get purchase subsidies as well.

    In the mean time us hard working Kiwi Battler taxpayers have to continue in our economical ICE's while respecting the scarcity of rare resources and vulnerable / exploited labour.
    From what I recall, the push for EV was never aimed at the middle class affordability. No new tech is done this way, as an example look at the evolution of smartphones. I remember buying a plain Nokia cellphone for around $100 (for which at the time everyone used the same model). Then all of a sudden, makers like Apple came out with their tech phones and as each year went buy, so did the prices of their products. iPhone 10 for $1000. I see the EV will eventually go that way ; ie there's hoards of cheaper Chinese or Indian brand smartphones that sell for $200+ range or less but who's buying them? I guess my point is, the coming of the EV is not a matter of affordability but rather, a matter of time.

    I must say during my talk with the man on the ferry boat (we spoke for well over 3 hours), i've learned a new perspective on why he's so hip with the Tesla EVs. On the topic of affordability he said one's person ability to realise their dream car comes at making the right decisions in life. I talked how when I was in my highschool teens I saw friends buy brand new V8 powered Mustangs and Camaros all on max loan rate paying the minimum monthly amount. Their habits never changed and as we grew older, the more in debt they became and eventually, never ever owning the house they live in or paying rent. Of course we're not saying eveyrone should be like this 84 old senior but he was saying that affordability comes with making the right decision.

    As far as absolute cost figures on the EV and how they were simply so out of reach for the masses. He agreed but an interesting aspect he brought up was the 'time factor' because everyone seems to be quick to point out how costly the EV cars are but not looking entirely the benefits. He worked out some figures that how much time does a person have to go to the petro station to fill up their car? Once a week? How much time you spend to drive to the petro station from home if you forgot to do so coming from work (or decided not to fill up after seeing a large line up at the petro station)? So you have transit time + the time it takes to fill the tank, and if you were not savy enough, you spent even more time to go in and pay (line up?) instead of using the credit card at the pump. So what he was getting at is, don't just look at the price tag of the EV or the petro cost you don't have to pay. You also have to consider how 'valuable' your time is by having the petro filled all the time vs simply plugging you EV at home to charge.

  2. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    As far as absolute cost figures on the EV and how they were simply so out of reach for the masses. He agreed but an interesting aspect he brought up was the 'time factor' because everyone seems to be quick to point out how costly the EV cars are but not looking entirely the benefits. He worked out some figures that how much time does a person have to go to the petro station to fill up their car? Once a week? How much time you spend to drive to the petro station from home if you forgot to do so coming from work (or decided not to fill up after seeing a large line up at the petro station)? So you have transit time + the time it takes to fill the tank, and if you were not savy enough, you spent even more time to go in and pay (line up?) instead of using the credit card at the pump. So what he was getting at is, don't just look at the price tag of the EV or the petro cost you don't have to pay. You also have to consider how 'valuable' your time is by having the petro filled all the time vs simply plugging you EV at home to charge.
    This was coming from a guy who was driving around town trying to find engineering places with enough amps to charge his car!

    We could do the numbers on it I guess. It takes me about 5 minutes once every two week to pump and pay for 40L which sees me good for 700km. I could reduce this significantly if I went to a pay and pump rather than full service station with a real person to serve me. Lets say it takes 30 seconds to plug in an EV each night thats 7 minutes of time used up.

    Total Cost of Ownership should always be looked at. Since he was in America heres a bit of a study (which indicates subsidies are necessary to make EVs fly) https://insideevs.com/news/339465/ne...ce-challenges/

  3. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    This was coming from a guy who was driving around town trying to find engineering places with enough amps to charge his car!

    We could do the numbers on it I guess. It takes me about 5 minutes once every two week to pump and pay for 40L which sees me good for 700km. I could reduce this significantly if I went to a pay and pump rather than full service station with a real person to serve me. Lets say it takes 30 seconds to plug in an EV each night thats 7 minutes of time used up.

    Total Cost of Ownership should always be looked at. Since he was in America heres a bit of a study (which indicates subsidies are necessary to make EVs fly) https://insideevs.com/news/339465/ne...ce-challenges/
    Did I not mention the vast array of Tesla Super Charging stations all over N. America? Granted that it would take time to charge plugging in, it does not mean the person has to put up with waiting. Consider those that don't require the use of a charging station by charging at home? The senior man was basically proving that as long as there's electricity to where you're traveling, owning an EV does not mean you're restricted to where you can travel.

    As for the link that subsidies are required to make EVs viable - sure there's no need to debate that EVs cost a hell of a lot more than the ICE variant. I don't think that's the point of why people buy EVs. The same can easily be said when building houses ; A person desires such and such features in a home like high performance windows, high levels of insulation and air tight construction methods, despite NONE of these methods will ever pay back in terms of $ savings. But it does not stop such people wanting to pay for such benefits. I myself when we built our home we had the highest spec double glazing in our PVC windows ; yes the builder said you'll never get your cost back in energy savings. True, but I do also enjoy the benefit of not worrying about condensation forming on the windows during winter. Can you amount a cost $ for that benefit? This is why i've been critical in the past posts that among all EVs being made, pretty much all of them are simply glorified electric golf carts because they offer no added features that the Tesla lineup has. Sure a lot of these features like automatic open and closing doors are a gimmick ; but to the person that appreciates such features, they justify the extra cost.

    The EV movement is inevitable. As long as the nations that have signed up with the Paris Agreemen Accord on Climate Change, you're going to find every country heading in the direction of reducing carbon emissions. The most common way to addressing it is through carbon taxation. Canada has it and NZ has similar forms in different ways (ie. higher tariffs on fuel imports). Pundits cry that all it does is it makes the poor or low income worse off. Perhaps so, or maybe the carbon taxation should elevate the cost of living so that people would be discouraged in having more children.

    One thing about Tesla that has made the auto industry so pessimistic is GM/Ford/FAU/+the European variants / Japan etc. is they never thought a Silicon Valley company could ever make a car to market. Because decades ago GM has tried to get a BEV to market at a low enough cost but failed (from what I hear, the Chev Bolt is a dunce of a car that no one talks or raves about). Now that Tesla has increased production levels to the point that almost everyone wanting a Tesla has got one (well at least in the US - there's still plenty of thirst for RHD nations wanting the Model 3). Those owners aren't going to be so quick at replacing their Tesla with who ever comes out with something comparable? Where's that Porsche Taycan? From what i've been hearing, the revised Model S & X in 2020 (or 2021?) will significantly be even better. If Porsche doesn't get their Taycan into production by this year... they might as well not make the car.

    I'll be eager to see if Ms Ardern will come out with an EV subsidy. Yeah yeah I know it still only the rich that will benefit but still, like many things, it's the wealthy folk that drive the innovation. People should be embracing that.

  4. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Did I not mention the vast array of Tesla Super Charging stations all over N. America? Granted that it would take time to charge plugging in, it does not mean the person has to put up with waiting. Consider those that don't require the use of a charging station by charging at home? The senior man was basically proving that as long as there's electricity to where you're traveling, owning an EV does not mean you're restricted to where you can travel.
    You posted "On his travels he would search out 'welding or mechanic shops' where he could plug into their high current outlet." I cant see the benefit of having to hunt out a welding shop when I can just turn of a servo and fill up with petrol. Surely if a person has to take time charging then they have to put up with waiting. I can spend five minutes filling up in Christchurch, drive down to Queesntown, turn around and get half way back before I need to spend my next five minues filling up. Bet that cant be doen with an EV.




    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    I'll be eager to see if Ms Ardern will come out with an EV subsidy. Yeah yeah I know it still only the rich that will benefit but still, like many things, it's the wealthy folk that drive the innovation. People should be embracing that.
    I'm not at all interested in seeing subsidies. This will inevitably be a further tax on the poor to help the rich. Just so they can virtuously driving around with their "I am saving the planet" superior than thou look upon their smug faces while drawing on our limited electrical generation resources.

    That said, I'm not such an old stick-in-the-mud dinosaur that I dont recognize that at some point we will see an EV tipping point. I have no difficulty with that. But lets not fool ourselves its going to "save the planet" (and thats without looking at the long term financial survivability of Tesla. Give them a few more years and I think we will find they are bankrupt and no longer able to support their vehicles.)

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