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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    I reckon the most expensive drive you will ever do is driving a new car off the car yard to home.
    I agree wholeheartedly.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Improvements are coming fast so why wait.Acting now is paramount to help stem global warming; thats why electric cars are here; you can now choose to help or hinder the health of the world going forward. I went to a local council meeting recently; they acknowledge global warming and are working on an 80cm sea rise in our district. Another speaker said hybrid cars are good but no better than small engined cars and Electric is the way to go. Never a better than now imo.I applaud your wife and am sad at your all consuming attitude.
    Pollution takes many forms Joshuatree. Without me bringing up the subject three people at the SUM annual meeting this week remarked about how a certain poster on here takes every possible apparent opportunity to maintain an often antagonistic approach toward another poster on here. Sometimes people need to move on and try and learn to put past grievances behind them and get on with everyone for the sake of others so the forum isn't polluted.

    As far as my V8 Chrysler is concerned it does have cylinder deactivation so that only four cylinders operate at low level throttle inputs which gives fuel economy level's not dissimilar to a V6 engines car. We have heaps of trees on our 1 acre property and own a number of other properties also with heaps of trees many of which we planted ourselves. I am more than satisfied we are carbon neutral overall as a family and therefore make no apology for driving a fantastic high performance car as my daily driver. When Tesla or someone else makes a car with about 500 horsepower a range of at least 500 km's in the real world, (not according to some theoretical lab experiment) and can guarantee only moderate range degradation over a ten year period and sell me a car like that for the $72,000 I paid for that one I'll be happy to sign up.

    In terms of why not immediately move to a full electric vehicle as a replacement for my wife's hybrid vehicle. Some good reasons appear:
    1. A 30 kwh Nissan Leaf, (practically the only vehicle available at present on the N.Z. market at a similar price point to a standard hatchback) still cannot do a 250 km's trip my wife regularly does to attend to one of her property interests without the hassle of stopping for a recharge.
    2. Vehicles with the necessary 250km range are significantly more expensive that a 30 kwh Nissan leaf.
    3. The proven technology of her Honda Civic hybrid, (nickel metal hydride batteries appear to be experiencing better longevity that Lithium ion ones) gives her unlimited range and is already very fuel efficient
    4. Depreciation. Her car at nine years old has already suffered the vast bulk of the depreciation it will suffer in its life but has only done 85,000 km's so probably has at least another 100,000 km's in it.
    5. Its cheap to service
    6. Battery replacement is cheap, (according to Honda a brand new replacement is only $900) How much will it cost to replace the lithium ion batteries in a Nissan Leaf when its range becomes compromised. Talk overseas seems to be about $12,000, what does Nissan N.Z. charge ?
    7. We are seeing extremely steep depreciation rates on all electric vehicles.
    8. By ~2020 there will be a significantly more electric vehicles available on the market, probably with better range and at a better price point.
    9. Electric vehicle battery technology and cost is evolving positivly at a very rapid pace
    10. Our kids and grandkids have knocked the interior of her car around to the point where our perception of its current trade-in value is very low and it has far more value to us to run it into the ground.

    Depreciation is something all consumers need to keep in mind. What's that fancy bell and whistles Tesla with an asking price of circa $150,000 Kiwi (depending upon model and spec) going to be worth in five years time when the range starts to gradually degrade and newer and greater range vehicles are available as technology evolves rapidly ? From what I have read depreciation rates on electric vehicles generally have been vastly higher than for similar cost internal combustion engine cars.

    All that said I do think the current Nissan Leaf 30 kwh vehicles for about $30,000 are something of a price inflection point in the N.Z. market.
    My concern is that they only have a whole of life role as a local runabout. Whilst the published range of up to 200 km's may be possibly attainable in ideal conditions with a brand new battery, I think in the real world operated in a real world manner their effective range is more likely to be 120-150 km's when new.

    As the battery condition gradually deteriorates over its useful life I expect the real world range to deteriorate into the 70-100 km's range.
    Is that enough for anything other than a local commuting runabout ?
    Last edited by Beagle; 30-04-2017 at 12:50 PM.

  3. #33
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    A whole floor full of electric vehicles at the MTA Car Show at Wellington's TSB Arena. The very popular Nissan Leaf was no a non-show however, presumably because it is now longer sold new by Nissan in NZ.

    There was even the Rinseed Budii, a car with a dancing steering wheel and Knightrider-style lights at the front an back (but in colour). A very peculiar car, the steering wheel can move from left hand drive to right hand drive (plus have a little boogie to it self) even if there are only LHD pedals fitted.

  4. #34
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    I would be interested in an electric run about as soon as the distances are better.

    Not all cars depreciate, my father made quite a bit on a Boxer Ferrari over the years and he had the pleasure of driving it.... sadly I didn't but got to take a couple of Lambo's for a bit of a squirt (the depreciation on these more than wiped out the gains of the Boxer though haha)

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    Guys ;there are bigger 40kwh batteries here now with longer range; read the threads back and you will see this. but $42 k i think for the renault zoe is a big ask for many.
    The Govt are doing diddly squat about incentivising electric cars ; very dissapointing; i mean allowing electric cars to go in the bus lane for a few weeks is pathetic and did anyone know it was on?. In some countries you get a decent % of the purchase price back. The Govt really do need to step up their game as understandably many folks have to look at the cost to go electric. Im sure pricing will drop as takeup increases. Hydrogen is the other possibility thatToyota , Mitsi and i think Fuji heavy industry are going hard on.

    All the taxis here are Prius's and they do really high mileages no prob. One can get batteries "renovated" too is another option.

    Yes Roger someone has to monitor the pollution on here i agree there is far too many attempts to influence people; there are a few here who think they are a big fish in a small pond and present opinions as facts; bully and have superiority ego probs is all i can think of; i mean what motivates them to do this when they could share with all? .Good point.

  6. #36
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    Joshuatree - Thank you for highlighting the benefits of the Renault Zoe. I hadn't even heard of them.
    [22kwh models (2015 year on Trade me for as little as $25,000 with rapid charge capability).
    40 kwh one for under $40K http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...1257021672.htm
    Last edited by Beagle; 01-05-2017 at 11:11 AM.

  7. #37
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    The BMW I3 looks pretty cool and has a 300km range maybe .Also Kia soul and Hyundai Ioniq

    http://evcentral.co.nz

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    http://evcentral.co.nz/vehicle/hyund...-premium-2017/

    I have heard that Hyundai think their lithium - ion polymer battery has superior longevity to a standard lithium-ion battery.

    Not a bad looking bit of kit for the money.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    http://evcentral.co.nz/vehicle/hyund...-premium-2017/

    I have heard that Hyundai think their lithium - ion polymer battery has superior longevity to a standard lithium-ion battery.

    Not a bad looking bit of kit for the money.
    I think the issue with the full-electric cars, so far, for many folks is the cost for what is in all honesty a pretty average and typically boring car. It is for me anyway. Maybe that depends on ones means are and what they can afford or see as good value for money, but in my book anything above $20-30k for a car is big money poorly invested.

    As backdrop, I would typically buy every 4-8 years a luxury car that some sucker lost a $100+k on and has done bugger all miles. One of them for example (my best buy ever) was an immaculate BMW525i M series, 19k on the clock!, $27k drive home. Another was the BMW535i for $35k with 80k on it (there's cracker driving car) and drove that beauty to 345km on the clock before someone took it off me for silly money. There was also the BMW540i 4.0l V8 for $21k with 80k on the clock (what a honey that was), which got flicked at 280k for about half what I paid for it. Yes I like my BM'rs, including my motorbike, but won't be selling that anytime soon. Before you say it, my experience with maintenance costs for all those BM'rs is all of them cost way less than my early days Ford Fairmont V8's and Fairmont 302's, but thats another story.

    So anecdote is fraught.

    But why would I pay $60k new or $45k used (for what looks like a demo being sold off) for an EV, even with only 4.5k on the clock? That's a heck of a lot of dosh for a bloody boring mid range car that will depreciate just as fast as anything else, maybe faster.

    I also worry about how fast the technology is advancing, just take the battery for example, this year you say 'awesome', 44kwh doubles the range and sure enough next year it will be 88kwh and your poor 44khw is worth sh1te. The year after and after that, technology improvement will smash the residual value of your EV even though it's got virtually no miles on it and is in mint condition, because it just doesn't perform like a 'modern' one does.

    These things seem to come up time and time again. For example, I'm looking at a starter car for my daughter, we can buy a small contemporary petrol car with all the safety features and only 50-80k on the clock for between $4-8k, good nick etc, and still achieve very modest fuel costs, low maintenance and bugger all depreciation. Even she knows that she's at the end of the drivers curve, where her future will be EV's and autonomous drivers, but in the meantime she wants transport that is effective, cost efficient, maintenance minimal, safe to drive, and get something back for it in the future when she sells it .. and oh, that someone actually wants to buy it.

    Until those boring EV's are truely cost competitive against other smaller to mid sized boring petrol cars which cost bugger all to buy and run, and retain their value, I don't think much will change expect for the Joshuas who have another, albeit sound, motive. Certainly it's not going to change quickly imho.
    Last edited by Baa_Baa; 01-05-2017 at 08:24 PM. Reason: typos

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    I think the issue with the full-electric cars, so far, for many folks is the cost for what is in all honesty a pretty average and typically boring car. It is for me anyway. Maybe that depends on ones means are and what they can afford or see as good value for money, but in my book anything above $20-30k for a car is big money poorly invested.Depends on your perspective. I get a LOT of pleasure from my daily driver a 2014 Chrysler SRT8 which cost $72K discounted fairly heavily as a demo with 500 km's on the clock. Very similar performance level's with 470 horsepower to a current model BMW M5 or Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG but about one third of the price and parts are cheaper too. With the big 6.4 liter Hemi being a naturally aspirated engine rather than twin turbo like the aforementioned comparable cars it should in theory give a lot less grief over the long haul.

    As backdrop, I would typically buy every 4-8 years a luxury car that some sucker lost a $100+k on and has done bugger all miles. One of them for example (my best buy ever) was an immaculate BMW525i M series, 19k on the clock!, $27k drive home. Another was the BMW535i for $35k with 80k on it (there's cracker driving car) and drove that beauty to 345km on the clock before someone took it off me for silly money. There was also the BMW540i 4.0l V8 for $21k with 80k on the clock (what a honey that was), which got flicked at 280k for about half what I paid for it. Yes I like my BM'rs, including my motorbike, but won't be selling that anytime soon. Before you say it, my experience with maintenance costs for all those BM'rs is all of them cost way less than my early days Ford Fairmont V8's and Fairmont 302's, but thats another story.BMW's drive very well in my opinion but parts prices can be a real shocker. I had a pretty good run when I drove several FPV's including F6 and supercharged GT-P but the latter drank fuel and ate a bit of oil too

    So anecdote is fraught.

    But why would I pay $60k new or $45k used (for what looks like a demo being sold off) for an EV, even with only 4.5k on the clock? That's a heck of a lot of dosh for a bloody boring mid range car that will depreciate just as fast as anything else, maybe faster.

    I also worry about how fast the technology is advancing, just take the battery for example, this year you say 'awesome', 44kwh doubles the range and sure enough next year it will be 88kwh and your poor 44khw is worth sh1te. The year after and after that, technology improvement will smash the residual value of your EV even though it's got virtually no miles on it and is in mint condition, because it just doesn't perform like a 'modern' one does.I think you're right to worry about very steep depreciation rates on electric cars. Just ask anyone who bought a brand new Nissan Leaf from Nissan N.Z. a few years ago for $59,995, not even worth one quarter of that four years later. Same thing for a Holden Volt which if my memory serves me correctly was $80K N.Z. a few years ago, probably lucky if you could sell one for $20K second hand now if you could sell it at all.

    These things seem to come up time and time again. For example, I'm looking at a starter car for my daughter, we can buy a small contemporary petrol car with all the safety features and only 50-80k on the clock for between $4-8k, good nick etc, and still achieve very modest fuel costs, low maintenance and bugger all depreciation. Even she knows that she's at the end of the drivers curve, where her future will be EV's and autonomous drivers, but in the meantime she wants transport that is effective, cost efficient, maintenance minimal, safe to drive, and get something back for it in the future when she sells it .. and oh, that someone actually wants to buy it.Time tested, well proven way for parents to help their kids make a sensible start with vehicle ownership. I cannot fault your logic.

    Until those boring EV's are truely cost competitive against other smaller to mid sized boring petrol cars which cost bugger all to buy and run, and retain their value, I don't think much will change expect for the Joshuas who have another, albeit sound, motive. Certainly it's not going to change quickly imho.
    Hard to make a compelling argument against what you've said. When we bought the Mrs Honda Civic hybrid in 2008 which is an old tech hybrid now it was $7,000 more than a regular Honda Civic of exactly the same shape. I worked out the payback period based on the fuel economy savings and it was 7 years. After holding it for nine years now we're definitely in the money with plenty more years of savings still to come on that vehicle if we choose to run it into the ground. Until that sort of equation presents itself again, its doubtful we'll change that horse anytime soon.
    Last edited by Beagle; 01-05-2017 at 11:34 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    Hard to make a compelling argument against what you've said. When we bought the Mrs Honda Civic hybrid in 2008 which is an old tech hybrid now it was $7,000 more than a regular Honda Civic of exactly the same shape. I worked out the payback period based on the fuel economy savings and it was 7 years. After holding it for nine years now we're definitely in the money with plenty more years of savings still to come on that vehicle if we choose to run it into the ground. Until that sort of equation presents itself again, its doubtful we'll change that horse anytime soon.
    Aside from the economics, has it been a good thing?

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    Honda Civic 1.4 litre hybrid emits re 109 g/km which is very low. Compare that what other std car you would have otherwise bought and X by km she has done ,subtract the diff and see the tangible reduction she has made in CO2 reduction alone and present her with a bottle of bubbly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    Aside from the economics, has it been a good thing?
    Not my cup of tea mate but my wife likes it. Simple integrated motor assist (IMA) system Honda calls it that adds 15 kw's of electric power when going up hills, (of which there are plenty around here), and collects the energy during coasting or through regenerative braking. Makes a bit more torque than the regular Honda Civic of that model and age so that's helpful on the hills. Ideal around town vehicle, not so good on the open road. 85 kw's and 170 nm's of torque so no rocket ship but its light and fuel efficient and easy to park and has all the modern safety systems so she and our grandkids are nice and safe. The old tech nickel metal hydride battery seem to be a proven stayer in terms of longevity, although I think its past its prime now. It was pretty much state of the art nine years ago, very old tech now but still works okay.
    Edit - Just saw your post Joshuatree. Thanks, yes good idea about the bubbly.
    Last edited by Beagle; 02-05-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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    Say a 2009 Honda Accord Vtec 2.2 tourer which is 173g/km. Say she has done 15000 km a year for 9 years= 135,000 km. 173gm - 109gm =64gm x135,000=8,640,000gm or 8640 kilos of CO2 she has stopped spewing into our atmosphere

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    Entertaining and factual history of batteries. Two things stand out to me ; game changers don't actually come around that often and sheer economies of scale is teslas approach to bringing down costs.

    Battery bonanza: From frogs' legs to mobiles and electric cars

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