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  1. #1521
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Yeah I am just talking about "total" EV registrations in NZ. New may be increasing slightly but total is going no where.
    The issue is price and range. Kiwi are not idiots and generally won't accept second rate cars at premium prices no matter what propulsion system they have.
    The truth that no EV buyer wants to admit is that it still makes far more compelling logic to buy a very good ICE car at a sensible price and plant a few trees that will still be making an enduring difference for the environment long after an EV owner has scrapped their vehicle. The lovely fat pair of wood pigeons that have taken up residence in the trees around our house seem to really appreciate the trees
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  2. #1522
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    @Beagle:

    If quality was a problem, then answer why so many Tesla cars have been sold? It's not rocket science. Here's the other problems that competing EV makers need to realise. Once people have bought their EV, they're not going to buy another for some years meaning, what other brands need to realise is the only way they can sell their EV is to take away the sale of a Tesla EV ; but we're not seeing that happen.

    I had initial interest in a Model X but it won't fit in the garage easily. Will wait and will have no concerns on a Made in China Model Y. At best RHD version in 2023? Not holding my breath for any of the other car makes to produce a decent EV despite having a better build quality. I have 2 messy children so ice cream on seats and interior is expected.
    Don't kid yourself. They only make up a tiny percentage of vehicles sold for the reasons posted directly above.
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  3. #1523
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    Going by what Fish has said, may be range is not such an issue,but then again how others may be in the queue if you time it wrong on a longer journey, as I was discussing with a mate recently it is still not a 5 minute job to 'fill' up. Price is a main factor for the 'average' kiwi/resident, Has been mentioned before you can get a brand new similar or slightly bigger ICE vehicle for about half the price (or less) of a new Leaf - a lot of motoring to make up the difference, and if want/need bigger vehicle then probably still about 1/2 the price of an equivalent

  4. #1524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Going by what Fish has said, may be range is not such an issue,but then again how others may be in the queue if you time it wrong on a longer journey, as I was discussing with a mate recently it is still not a 5 minute job to 'fill' up. Price is a main factor for the 'average' kiwi/resident, Has been mentioned before you can get a brand new similar or slightly bigger ICE vehicle for about half the price (or less) of a new Leaf - a lot of motoring to make up the difference, and if want/need bigger vehicle then probably still about 1/2 the price of an equivalent
    Range has not ever been an issue for me and its good not to have to call into petrol stations.
    My wife has found concerns which she will master-eg about to go on a long journey this monday-thought she had charged it but had not-panic phone call-100k range but 150 k journey-check on i-phone-local fast charger free as always-charge from 40% to 80% took 16 minutes only cost $6.
    So problem solved at minimal cost and she used the 16 minutes productively in town.You cannot walk away whilst an ice car is to be filled

  5. #1525
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    It took me 3 minutes to add 600 km's range to my German assembled 2019 Holden Calais V the other day, one that's about the same size as a Tesla Model S that sells for 3 times the price. Hmmmm
    Last edited by Beagle; 10-01-2020 at 10:27 AM.
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  6. #1526
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    You mean you gave the fuel companies and the Govt another $150.. As you will every week or two for the next x years, costing you more than what you paid for the car.

  7. #1527
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    On average based on 12,000 km's per annum I use about 1,300 liters costing after discount about $2,800 = ~ $54 per week. A lot of that is actually me paying for my fair share of road maintenance.

    If I had of pulled an extra $100,000 out of the market to buy a Tesla Model S I would likely incur an extra $15,000 - $20,000 per annum in depreciation costs and lost the opportunity to earn an extra $100,000 x 10% = $10,000 per annum, (very conservatively) in investment income and thus be about ($17,500 + $10,000) - $2,800 = $24,700 worse off per annum.

    Then there's the cost to charge the Tesla, (its not free to run), and there is likely to be road user charges as well from 2022 so average forecast cost per km to run the Tesla in the years ahead is about 10 cents per km, (certainly not free as you imply), or about $1,200 per annum average based on 12,000 km's per annum over its life including most of it including years when road user charges are applicable.

    I have run the numbers on a Model 3 and they don't work either. I think its quite clear for me, (at this stage) its a lot cheaper to plant a few trees for the wood pigeons and Tui's to enjoy.

    All that said, I can understand Fish's position of investing in a late model Nissan Leaf for low $40's. That makes sense.

    What might make sense for me is if BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar or Audi build a high end luxury sedan EV that's no more expensive than their current high end ICE powered cars. i.e. if I am going to get slammed with depreciation I expect to be driving a true high quality luxury vehicle, an electric S Class Mercedes-Benz would be nice.
    Last edited by Beagle; 10-01-2020 at 10:45 AM.
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  8. #1528
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    $15-20k a year in depreciation? So in a year or two I'll be able to pick up a Model S 75D with ~50kms on the clock for $30-40k? Cool!, I await this moment.

  9. #1529
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    https://www.tesla.com/en_NZ/inventor...h&zip=&range=0
    Plainly obvious I was talking about like for like, a brand new car and yes if you wait, the poor sucker who pays $150K for a brand new Model S is likely to struggle to get $120K back after 2 years.

    If you use a 10% diminishing value depreciation model as a general guide for a car that's already 5 years old, you might be able to buy this one for about $63,000 when its seven years old https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/use...50c0797752-002 and good luck with the battery longevity...
    Last edited by Beagle; 10-01-2020 at 03:31 PM.
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  10. #1530
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    And a 75D was a brand new car 2-3 years ago at about $125k new IIRC, so if your $20k pa depreciation figure wasn't total bollocks, they would be down to about $40k in two years time. Pity the cheapest one on trademe (the one you linked) at the moment is a 5 year old Model S 85kWhr (old ugly, pre facelift model, predates and is inferior to the 75D) for $77k.. And the cheapest and only 75D on trademe is closer to three years old, and still asking $97K.

    "an extra $15 to 20k per annum depreciation" over your Buick.. nah, you're dreaming.
    Last edited by Vagabond47; 10-01-2020 at 05:31 PM. Reason: typo

  11. #1531
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    I will try and keep this simple so you can follow along. $125,000 less 10% depreciation = $112,500 after year one.
    $112,500 less 10% depreciation = $101,250 after year two...keep repeating 10% per annum depreciation on the diminishing value each year and you arrive at $73,800 after 5 years, which is approximately the price of the car I provided a link for.

    Of course some other dealers will "have their hand on it" when it comes to asking prices, they're car dealers lol

    If you do the same exercise on a $150,000 Tesla, you'll lose $15,000 in the first year, e.t.c. and end up at $88,500 after 5 years losing $61,500 in 5 years which is considerably more than the total cost of my "Buick"

    As for the extra $100,000 I might have invested in a Tesla model S last year and pulled it out of the market to do so, well the NZX 50 was up 30% in 2019 so the opportunity cost, (surely you don't need me to explain the term opportunity cost, if so please google it and try and keep up, there's a good chap), of doing so would have been $30,000 in 2019 alone let alone what it might be in all future years.

    All of this shows how much money, cost, depreciation and opportunity cost one incurs owing an expensive car. The cost is absolutely HUGE. One can make some sort of spurious argument that the cost is worth it if the car is something exceptional like a Mercedes-Benz S Class for example, but a Tesla Model S is not in that league, not anywhere remotely close.

    If you can't understand my perspective by now you're not going to so I think I'll leave it there with you.
    Last edited by Beagle; 10-01-2020 at 08:14 PM.
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  12. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    I will try and keep this simple so you can follow along. $125,000 less 10% depreciation = $112,500 after year one.
    $112,500 less 10% depreciation = $101,250 after year two...keep repeating 10% per annum depreciation on the diminishing value each year and you arrive at $73,800 after 5 years, which is approximately the price of the car I provided a link for.

    Of course some other dealers will "have their hand on it" when it comes to asking prices, they're car dealers lol

    If you do the same exercise on a $150,000 Tesla, you'll lose $15,000 in the first year, e.t.c. and end up at $88,500 after 5 years losing $61,500 in 5 years which is considerably more than the total cost of my "Buick"

    As for the extra $100,000 I might have invested in a Tesla model S last year and pulled it out of the market to do so, well the NZX 50 was up 30% in 2019 so the opportunity cost, (surely you don't need me to explain the term opportunity cost, if so please google it and try and keep up, there's a good chap), of doing so would have been $30,000 in 2019 alone let alone what it might be in all future years.

    All of this shows how much money, cost, depreciation and opportunity cost one incurs owing an expensive car. The cost is absolutely HUGE. One can make some sort of spurious argument that the cost is worth it if the car is something exceptional like a Mercedes-Benz S Class for example, but a Tesla Model S is not in that league, not anywhere remotely close.

    If you can't understand my perspective by now you're not going to so I think I'll leave it there with you.
    If any of that worries you, just go and buy a Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai or Kia.

  13. #1533
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    If any of that worries you, just go and buy a Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai or Kia.
    ...or a Holden

    I don't mind incurring big costs if you're getting something truly special.

    A client of mine has one of these and he loves it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc7zQGUdp_g
    Last edited by Beagle; 10-01-2020 at 08:38 PM.
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  14. #1534
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    Yeah, you're just all over the place aren't you..

    First it was "an extra $15-20k per annum depreciation" over the holden, now you've been called on your BS, and you are down to $12.5k Total depreciation in the first (worst) year..

    Not to mention your complete history of pissing on about how the jag etc are so great, but obviously since they are more expensive than the Tesla you were never actually interested in buying one. Should've just got a corolla and been done with it.

  15. #1535
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    ………..…………………….
    Last edited by Beagle; 10-01-2020 at 10:34 PM.
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  16. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    ...or a Holden

    I don't mind incurring big costs if you're getting something truly special.

    A client of mine has one of these and he loves it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc7zQGUdp_g
    For me, reliability and minimum servicing is number one. That pretty much rules out anything European.

  17. #1537
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    For me, reliability and minimum servicing is number one. That pretty much rules out anything European.
    Yes, for the majority of people a vehicle is simply a mobile appliance and a means to get from A to B and back in which case they are well catered for by the mainstream Japanese and Korean manufacturers. The recently released Kia Seltos got a huge write up in the current edition of N.Z. Autocar and for many families wanting a cheap SUV at just $26K its looks like its well worth a test drive. No idea how you build a case for buying one of the EV brands from the same manufacturer, say a Kia Niro for ~ $70K. I wonder how many trees could be planted for the $44,000 price difference ?
    Last edited by Beagle; 11-01-2020 at 11:47 AM.
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  18. #1538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    I wonder how many trees could be planted for the $44,000 price difference ?
    That's a very good point you make. I laugh every time I see a leaf with the "zero emissions" branding on it. Such blatant BS. EV's are more damaging to the environment, especially in countries where energy is not from sustainable sources. I will continue to drive my ICE vehicle guilt free and save a packet of money in the mean time thank you very much.

  19. #1539
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    That's a very good point you make. I laugh every time I see a leaf with the "zero emissions" branding on it. Such blatant BS. EV's are more damaging to the environment, especially in countries where energy is not from sustainable sources. I will continue to drive my ICE vehicle guilt free and save a packet of money in the mean time thank you very much.
    Mrs Beagle gets a kick each time she buys a reliable new Honda as she knows the tree fund they have soaks up any of the CO2 the dozens of trees on our property might have somehow missed. She gets a really good quality brand new car with 5 years unlimited mileage warranty at a sensible price and is still doing her bit for the environment. https://www.honda.co.nz/about-honda/environment/
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  20. #1540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond47 View Post
    Yeah, you're just all over the place aren't you..

    First it was "an extra $15-20k per annum depreciation" over the holden, now you've been called on your BS, and you are down to $12.5k Total depreciation in the first (worst) year..

    Not to mention your complete history of pissing on about how the jag etc are so great, but obviously since they are more expensive than the Tesla you were never actually interested in buying one. Should've just got a corolla and been done with it.
    Beagle is a rare dodo. We have a simple situation where demand for Tesla's are high worldwide but for every alternative EV he considers as being better (because the fitting and build quality is better? like like all those Tesla owners are crying over it), he fails to recognise the little demand for such EVs - despite how some plain Jo gives some raving review. Really, if the car reviews meant anything, how come we're not seeing the Jag EV or Porsche EV selling like hot cakes? and then I see Beagle's post about Mercedez's EQC which is a total flop in Germany.

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