ACT's David Seymour - i like his style.

[davflaws]

It is sick. It is wrong. If you are a democratic socialist, and you are working away to usher in a pure socialist system to replace our (psuedo)capitalist society, that should preclude you from standing for Parliament. Why do we allow people who want to destroy us the means to take power? It's insane.

Because thus far (at any rate) ACT's crypto fascist dogwhistling has not convinced more than a small proportion of the citizenry to abandon our broadly liberal democratic system and our generally centrist policies. That may be about to change. I hope not, because the more unequal society that will result will make everyone less healthy and happy.

Your sharing about your exhaustion, dissatisfaction, and general disillusion with the "rat race", and your resentment of the beneficiaries whose lives you see as better or more plasant and satisfying than your own, makes some of your postings more understandable and human, and I .encourage you to say more about that

[Logen Ninefingers]

You, as usual, are making huge assumptions about people you don't even know. Who exactly is labelling working people as 'selfish', 'greedy', 'privileged?" Not the majority of beneficiaries that's for sure. Beneficiaries have many obligations and responsibilities, that you are obviously unaware of as clearly you have never found yourself in the position of needing temporary assistance. Job Seekers in particular have ongoing obligations to not only meet with case managers regularly, but to declare income from all sources as they earn it. Yes, people on JS (and supported living benefits) are often working part time, and are only being "topped up" by WINZ, to ensure they can put food on the table. They have training obligations if relevant to their situation, and have to demonstrate they are looking for work (and provide proof of that).

Black Peter is 100% correct in everything he said above. STOP lumping all beneficiaries into the same "bottom feeder" bucket of disgust! Nobody is disputing the fact that some people exploit the system, but the vast majority do not! The comments made here by some of you, say far more about you than they do about us, and your comments demonstrate your own entitlement, and feelings of superiority.

You people rant and rave about co-governance and racist policies blah blah blah - yet you contribute just as much to the division in this country, with your narrow minded, ignorance about how the other half lives.

There, but for the Grace of God go I. Remember that.

I haven't called beneficiaries 'bottom feeders'. You are taking aim at the wrong person. I am saying it is entirely right and appropriate that they should have to meet with case managers & declare extra income. If you think that is some sort of incredibly harsh and draconian position to take, then I think that is indicative of just how skewed some perspectives are becoming.

I have found myself in the position where I could seek 'temporary' assistance from the state. I have been at the WINZ office but I couldn't go through with the application. In my heart of hearts I know that I can always find a job, and it is simply a matter of perserverance. The more interviews a person attends, the luckier they get. These days if I have a period where I don't work, I live off my savings. I am simply not going to go onto a benefit. It is not something I want for myself. I want to go through my entire life without going into a benefit. If others want to go on it 'temporarily', good on them I guess. Personally, I won't be doing it.

I don't get this 'but for the Grace of God go I' stuff.

There are people with mental health issues & neurodivergence who get up every day and go to work. It is a matter of self discipline and self respect.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Because thus far (at any rate) ACT's crypto fascist dogwhistling has not convinced more than a small proportion of the citizenry to abandon our broadly liberal democratic system and our generally centrist policies. That may be about to change. I hope not, because the more unequal society that will result will make everyone less healthy and happy.

Your sharing about your exhaustion, dissatisfaction, and general disillusion with the "rat race", and your resentment of the beneficiaries whose lives you see as better or more plasant and satisfying than your own, makes some of your postings more understandable and human, and I .encourage you to say more about that

I still fail to see where the 'resentment' of beneficiaries is that you are claiming. I've said that it is entirely appropriate that beneficiaries meet with case managers and declare extra income. I've said that I don't think that - in a country crying out for workers - it is acceptable that some people are on benefits year in and year out. None of this is 'crypto fascist'.

There is exhaustion and dissatisfaction with the rat race, but Marxists have never come up with anything better. Their system is supposed to all for 'the worker', yet in any country it was tried the worker ended up working twice as hard for a much reduced standard of living & an oppressive totalitarian state. If anyone out there thinks that the Left are good and uncorruptable people then they should think again after reviewing history & the application of the adage 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

The fallacy and failure of the Left is their dunderheaded belief that they can make life 'fair'. All they will do is destroy our living standards, there is nothing surer.

The people I reserve my contempt for are the chardonnay socialists and the ivory tower intellectuals and the union officials. The parasites who feed off division and lies. The people who wouldn't be paid tuppence in a 'workers paradise' like North Korea, but grow fat and loud in a capitalist society. They are the latent Napoleons and Snowballs of our erstwhile Animal Farm, the ones who preach hate the entirity of their lives & will never do a single days hard work so long as they live.

[Entrep]

You people rant and rave about co-governance and racist policies blah blah blah - yet you contribute just as much to the division in this country, with your narrow minded, ignorance about how the other half lives.

Not really - we're not on the news telling the country that all violence is because of white males, or that Pakeha are responsible for Maori domestic abuse (Marama Mugabe). I'd argue she has had a far larger impact than random posters on a small investment forum.

This is just another spin on the "if you question it you're racist". If you question it, your divisive.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You can see how certain posters - filled up with Left wing dogma - patronise others and parade their supposed moral superiority. They are the foot soldiers of the Left, the ones that put democratic socialist fanatics into position of power where they can wreck our country.

[moka]

I know a bloke who purchased a nearly new fridge and washing machine from a beneficiary family who were moving from Rotorua to Hamilton. He made some ridiculously low offer for the appliances which was accepted. The lady just laughed and said they’d get new ones from WINZ.

Fact Check You have to pay the money back when Work and Income helps you buy a new fridge.

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/urgent-costs/whiteware.html

We may be able to help you buy a new fridge, freezer, combined fridge-freezer or washing machine if you’re on a low income or a benefit.
You don't have to be on a benefit to qualify for this help.
You'll have to pay the money back.

[Balance]

Fact Check You have to pay the money back when Work and Income helps you buy a new fridge.

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/urgent-costs/whiteware.html

We may be able to help you buy a new fridge, freezer, combined fridge-freezer or washing machine if you’re on a low income or a benefit.
You don't have to be on a benefit to qualify for this help.
You'll have to pay the money back.

Which they never do.

[BlackPeter]

I don't know if Davflaws is being facetious or not. All I want is for beneficiaries to have the same sort of obligations and oversight that working people do. It's pretty simple really. I'm sick of seeing working people labelled as 'selfish', 'greedy', 'privileged' when in reality they are getting milked by the state while frantically going round on round on the hamster wheel of life. We are all working and paying taxes hoping for a great country where hard work is rewarded and people take the opportunities that are available. In my opinion we are all being betrayed by the Left, we are being betrayed by people who literally hate our system and society and make no secret of it, people who will gladly borrow $100 billion and spend it wastefully to undermine our country and saddle it with an onerous burden. It is sick. It is wrong. If you are a democratic socialist, and you are working away to usher in a pure socialist system to replace our (psuedo)capitalist society, that should preclude you from standing for Parliament. Why do we allow people who want to destroy us the means to take power? It's insane.

Well, I don't know that either. Lets hope, he was ...

Not sure though, I can understand your hate on anything left-wing. And no, just to clarify - that's not me - I consider myself a conservative liberal.

Society is spread across many dimensions. One dimension is political left to the political right ... and if we forget about the extremes on both sides, all political views are valid and necessary.

The extreme right wants a small state and everybody fighting for themselves, which taken to the extreme leads to failed states (like Somalia). No taxes, no police, no education system, no justice system, no welfare.

The extreme left wants a nanny state which takes responsibility of the individual from birth to grave, which leads obviously to extreme inefficencies and lack of incentives to perform for individuals (high taxes).

Both sides of the political spectrum taken to their extreme are highly undesirable and - frankly - don't work.

So - I guess we need to work it out where we as society see the sweet spot between these extremes, and this (working out) works better if you respect the other side instead of demonizing them and just shouting at them.

The Left-wing camp is morally neither better nor worse than the conservative camp ... and both camps have their fair share of liars, corrupt politicians and plain incompetent politicians.

And while you are right that the most recent Labour government was not very efficient, neither was the Key government before. If you want to know how they blew our hard earned tax dollar, than read the "Billion Dollar Bonfire" from Chris Lee. No fun to read, but lots of useful data in it.

So - lets agree on facts, lets help us to see each others goals - and hopefully move the country together into a better future. Calling the other side names and presume they want to damage society results only in further radicalisation on both sides of the political spectrum ... and if you want to see what comes out of that, than just study the European history of the early 20th century. No need to repeat this chapter.

[justakiwi]

I haven't called beneficiaries 'bottom feeders'. You are taking aim at the wrong person.

No I'm not. I am responding to your post, and everything you said, implied that all beneficiaries are bottom feeders.

I am saying it is entirely right and appropriate that they should have to meet with case managers & declare extra income. If you think that is some sort of incredibly harsh and draconian position to take, then I think that is indicative of just how skewed some perspectives are becoming.

I agree with you. I was simply pointing out to you, that beneficiaries do have real obligations.

I have found myself in the position where I could seek 'temporary' assistance from the state. I have been at the WINZ office but I couldn't go through with the application. In my heart of hearts I know that I can always find a job, and it is simply a matter of perserverance. The more interviews a person attends, the luckier they get.

OK, so you felt uncomfortable applying for assistance so made a decision not to go through with it. That is fine, and your choice, but don't judge others for making a different choice. The fact that you have sufficient savings to do that, is admirable, but again, don't judge others for not having that ability. Some of us work hard (or have worked hard all our lives) but in jobs that do not pay even close to the average wage. Many of those people have minimal ability to save. The only reason I have been able to do that (and invest some of those savings) is because I made a decision to live full time in my caravan. I had spent years post divorce, working full time to pay rent (and raise kids) - I made zero headway. I have saved more money over the past five years since I moved into my caravan, than any other time in my life. But not everyone is in the position to do what I did, so they work their butts off and make very little financial headway. Some of those people are now the beneficiaries you so despise. You don't know other people's stories. I have put myself out there here at ST, from the day I first joined up. I basically laid all my cards o on the table and have been an open book. I did that for a reason. Firstly, because I am an inherently, and sickeningly, honest person. I over share personal information because I am a WYSIWYG kind of person. But I have also shared my **** here, as a way to (hopefully) educate people, and open their eyes to the fact that we are all different, we don't all fit the same mold, but we are all human beings with something of value to contribute. I have been a beneficiary in the past. I beat myself up constantly, feeling guilty and ashamed for being a solo parent raising four kids, struggling to put food on the table and having to accept help from food banks at times. Not being able to afford the cost of a school camp. Having to tell your kids you can't afford to buy milo this week. Feeling like the ****tiest parent when your youngest child points out that they never get new clothes - just their sisters' hand me downs. Do you have any idea what that is like? I swore I would never ever put myself through that again, yet here I am. Only able to work x amount of hours a week (due to health issues) and being "topped up" by WINZ. But you know what? This time I refuse to feel guilty, and I refuse to feel ashamed. Because social assistance is there for precisely this reason, and none of us should be made to feel worthless, for having to accept it.

These days if I have a period where I don't work, I live off my savings. I am simply not going to go onto a benefit. It is not something I want for myself. I want to go through my entire life without going into a benefit. If others want to go on it 'temporarily', good on them I guess. Personally, I won't be doing it.

I don't get this 'but for the Grace of God go I' stuff.

"There, but for the Grace of God" - is a timely reminder, that none of us ever know what is around the corner, or where our life will end up. There are no guarantees about anything - whether we will even wake up tomorrow. I am not religious myself, but I find the saying apt and relevant to many of these "discussions" - any one of you could suddenly find yourself in the position of needing government assistance. Yes, even you.

There are people with mental health issues & neurodivergence who get up every day and go to work. It is a matter of self discipline and self respect.

You have no idea mate. None.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Fact Check You have to pay the money back when Work and Income helps you buy a new fridge.

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/urgent-costs/whiteware.html

We may be able to help you buy a new fridge, freezer, combined fridge-freezer or washing machine if you’re on a low income or a benefit.
You don't have to be on a benefit to qualify for this help.
You'll have to pay the money back.

Obviously there are people out there who know how to game the system.

Special Needs Grants are paid for a variety of purposes and are available to non-beneficiaries as well as beneficiaries. There are both income-test limits and a cash-asset limit.

You usually don’t have to repay a Special Needs Grant. In some situations, both a Special Needs Grant and an Advance of Benefit (or Recoverable Assistance Payment) can be paid, if the Special Needs Grant is insufficient to meet the entire need.

Work and Income should deal with an application for a Special Needs Grant inside one working day. In some cases, you can apply by ringing Work and Income’s 0800 559 009 number, rather than having to apply in writing.

Payments can be made directly to suppliers, if they’re on Work and Income’s database, or through a payment card provided to you by Work and Income.