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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Paying teachers based on performance rather than collective lowest common denominator seems like a good idea to me
    If you have excellent teachers but in an area of increasing poverty, increasing overcrowding and/or substandard housing and poor quality equipment, the chances are their performance will suffer. If some teachers increasingly have students who are inadequately nourished and clothed and the students continually fall ill, then some teachers have a deteriorating environment in which they try to teach
    Last edited by Bjauck; 03-09-2017 at 07:20 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    If you have excellent teachers but in an area of increasing poverty, increasing overcrowding and/or substandard housing and poor quality equipment, the chances are their performance will suffer. If some teachers increasingly have students who are inadequately nourished and clothed and the students continually fall ill, then some teachers have a deteriorating environment in which they try to teach
    You may find excellent teachers shine through in these areas

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    You may find excellent teachers shine through in these areas
    The ones who perhaps perform well in social work as well as teaching?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    The ones who perhaps perform well in social work as well as teaching?
    Depends on how excellence will be defined.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Depends on how excellence will be defined.
    Sure. And will it differ from rich to poor areas? So you think excellence for teachers in areas becoming more deprived will be constantly changing to include expertise in social work? Whilst those in continually prosperous areas will be judged on their ability to teach? So teaching ability will not necessarily mean teaching ability depending on where you teach?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Sure. And will it differ from rich to poor areas? So you think excellence for teachers in areas becoming more deprived will be constantly changing to include expertise in social work? Whilst those in continually prosperous areas will be judged on their ability to teach? So teaching ability will not necessarily mean teaching ability depending on where you teach?
    Question - are underprivileged kids going to be better off or worse off with teachers now being incentivised greatly for their performance and their rapport with students?

    Perhaps, teachers in a decile 1 school might find it more difficult to earn 80k a year under this scheme, but at least the opportunity is there and where there is opportunity there will always be those who rise.

    As it is now ( with 4 teachers in my family who obviously love this policy ) the only monetary reward teachers can hope for is a chance at moving into a leadership position - essentially the teachers who are performing well and are considered for a promotion can now, through this policy be rewarded without having to leave the classroom where the real work with students occurs...

    The opportunity to work 60 hour weeks and earn under 60k did not sell a lot of great candidates on the idea of going into teaching, perhaps this might?
    Last edited by hardt; 03-09-2017 at 10:12 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardt View Post
    Question - are underprivileged kids going to be better off or worse off with teachers now being incentivised greatly for their performance and their rapport with students?
    Are you expecting different things from teachers in different areas? My issue is mainly in assessing "performance" in areas and schools with changing circumstances. Will a good teacher one year, be deemed to be not so good in subsequent years because they do not have the social work skills needed to cope with increasing poverty? So would their salary be cut as result of inadequate funding of social work in the community with deteriorating living conditions?

    Question - is it easier to develop rapport with healthy children from stable backgrounds, from a warm dry house and who have been well fed?

    Perhaps, teachers in a decile 1 school might find it more difficult to earn 80k a year under this scheme,
    ...You teach in a privileged area with healthy well fed kids, you deserve an easier way to earn more money? Shouldn't teachers in underprivileged areas be paid higher salaries anyway, as not only do they need to be skilled teachers, they need to have greater skills in social work.

    but at least the opportunity is there and where there is opportunity there will always be those who rise....
    There are always some that shine no matter how grim the circumstances. Although the numbers who will be able to succeed become fewer and fewer as the circumstances become worse and worse.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Sure. And will it differ from rich to poor areas? So you think excellence for teachers in areas becoming more deprived will be constantly changing to include expertise in social work? Whilst those in continually prosperous areas will be judged on their ability to teach? So teaching ability will not necessarily mean teaching ability depending on where you teach?
    I think you arte taking an overall elitist view. Suggestign those in "poor" areas are trouble and those in "rich" areas aren't.

    Schools in poor areas turn out excellent students. Hoi polio private schools can turn out toe rags - though you wont see them in the NCEA stats as they are kept out of that part of the system.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post

    ...You teach in a privileged area with healthy well fed kids, you deserve an easier way to earn more money? Shouldn't teachers in underprivileged areas be paid higher salaries anyway, as not only do they need to be skilled teachers, they need to have greater skills in social work.
    Not every teacher is excellent. Therefore perhaps the top 20% in rich schools and the top 20% in poor schools would get the pay. Maybe the poor performing 20% in poor schools and rich schools get shown the door.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    I think you arte taking an overall elitist view. Suggestign those in "poor" areas are trouble and those in "rich" areas aren't.
    ...
    LOL but true we should not foreget the deprivation and challenges in high decile zones.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    LOL but true we should not foreget the deprivation and challenges in high decile zones.
    They certainly have access to a better class of drug and mental health issues of a much more privileged nature

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    They certainly have access to a better class of drug and mental health issues of a much more privileged nature

    Are you talking about the teachers?

  13. #58
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    Good post - sums it up nicely and probably about how it is too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    If you have excellent teachers but in an area of increasing poverty, increasing overcrowding and/or substandard housing and poor quality equipment, the chances are their performance will suffer. If some teachers increasingly have students who are inadequately nourished and clothed and the students continually fall ill, then some teachers have a deteriorating environment in which they try to teach

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    If you have excellent teachers but in an area of increasing poverty, increasing overcrowding and/or substandard housing and poor quality equipment, the chances are their performance will suffer. If some teachers increasingly have students who are inadequately nourished and clothed and the students continually fall ill, then some teachers have a deteriorating environment in which they try to teach
    The Ministry for Vulnerable Children should be knocking at those doors then, with a view to removing those children to a home where they will be fed, clothed, not overcrowded, get the health care they need, and be supported at school.

    That would remove the burden from teachers, who are supposed to be there to teach. And from parents who are not caring properly for their children,

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemis View Post
    The Ministry for Vulnerable Children should be knocking at those doors then, with a view to removing those children to a home where they will be fed, clothed, not overcrowded, get the health care they need, and be supported at school.

    That would remove the burden from teachers, who are supposed to be there to teach. And from parents who are not caring properly for their children,
    Exactly.
    Get the teachers teaching - and reward the good ones. Get the social workers social working - and likewise reward the good ones.

    Above all set some consequences for parents who aren't providing the basics and prefer to have their children in "poverty"

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