National - FFS!

[Bjauck]

Point is that this government has lost credibility with this second stuff up with keeping our borders safe from another virus outbreak.

Testing all frontline workers regularly is basic precaution - not rocket science.

Keeping quarantine facilities secure is basic - not military grade requirement.

You can only fool all of the people some of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

Mind you, I will concede that this government can still fool some of the people all of the time.

I am sure Simon Bridges would have done a better job sorting out and overseeing government departments. Yeah right!

[Balance]

I am sure Simon Bridges would have done a better job sorting out and overseeing government departments. Yeah right!

Nobody could possibly have done worse than this government - it had one job which is to protect our border and they have fallen flat on their faces, twice!

Why? Because this government has not got a clue how to govern beyond locking us all down, it looks like their only strategy.

And spare us your pathetic trick of deflecting - it confirms you as one of the ‘some’ people who is happy to be fooled all the time.

Or are you one of those trying to fool all of the people all the time?

[jonu]

I cannot explain the exit strategy because I don’t know and nor does anyone else including the politicians who will make the decisions. I don’t even know which politicians will be making those decisions after the election. They will be reacting to events as they happen. Will we contain this outbreak and if we do when will the next one be? The government knew the chance of a resurgence was likely but it didn’t know when or how many people would be affected.

So jonu lots of uncertainty. You are wanting certainty and answers in uncertain times. We are living in unpredictable times. We are in uncharted territory, we live in interesting times. A policy statement could be derailed at any time by the virus.
I don’t believe there will be a vaccine within the next 12 months

So you agree we have a government that has budgeted 150 BILLION dollars of our descendants money, on a plan with no definable exit strategy other than a vaccine which may never arrive. At what stage do we reopen the border? Are we to be forever locked into a revolving door of alert levels? Sounds a tad irresponsible to me. I wouldn't spend 1k without thinking through whether it was a sustainable model.

[blackcap]

So you agree we have a government that has budgeted 150 BILLION dollars of our descendants money, on a plan with no definable exit strategy other than a vaccine which may never arrive. At what stage do we reopen the border? Are we to be forever locked into a revolving door of alert levels? Sounds a tad irresponsible to me. I wouldn't spend 1k without thinking through whether it was a sustainable model.

I think Moka thinks that money comes from the money tree. By the looks of his/her posts thats what it seems like.

[Balance]

I think Moka thinks that money comes from the money tree. By the looks of his/her posts thats what it seems like.

Tax & Spend

Borrow & Hope

Labour reverting back to its 'core values' - impoverish all to create an equal society

[Bjauck]

Nobody could possibly have done worse than this government - it had one job which is to protect our border and they have fallen flat on their faces, twice!

Why? Because this government has not got a clue how to govern beyond locking us all down, it looks like their only strategy.

And spare us your pathetic trick of deflecting - it confirms you as one of the ‘some’ people who is happy to be fooled all the time.

Or are you one of those trying to fool all of the people all the time?

I am not sure why you expect a perfect response to this epidemic. Has any democracy achieved that? Anyway good on you if you expect that National would have done better. Perhaps even if they may have ignore government department heads’ advice? That is democracy.

[Balance]

I am not sure why you expect a perfect response to this epidemic with allowance for human errors. Anyway good on for you if you expect that National would have done better. Perhaps even if they may ignore government department heads’ advice? That is democracy.

Nobody is expecting a perfect response but failing spectacularly on the basics of protecting NZers at the border - twice?

To be blunt, it is an insult to the intelligence of those of us attempting to discuss the election & the serious implications of policies when all we get are excuses and deflections as responses of Labourite posters.

I apologize for getting aggro so let's try again:

This government has failed spectacularly twice in its one job of keeping our borders secure against the enemy - its election platform by its own admission.

Why has it not learnt from the first debacle?

It is not rocket science to require testing for all frontline staff & to provide adequate PPE so why not?

And please, spare us whether National or Simon or John or David can do better ir worse - let's discuss this government of the here and now.

Fair enough?

[BlackPeter]

Nobody is expecting a perfect response but failing spectacularly on the basics of protecting NZers at the border - twice?

To be blunt, it is an insult to the intelligence of those of us attempting to discuss the election & the serious implications of policies when all we get are excuses and deflections as responses of Labourite posters.

I apologize for getting aggro so let's try again:

This government has failed spectacularly twice in its one job of keeping our borders secure against the enemy - its election platform by its own admission.

Why has it not learnt from the first debacle?

It is not rocket science to require testing for all frontline staff & to provide adequate PPE so why not?

And please, spare us whether National or Simon or John or David can do better ir worse - let's discuss this government of the here and now.

Fair enough?

To be fair - we don't know yet, how this second out brake came into the country (or whether it was always here), maybe we still might all learn something new about the virus?

Having said that, I agree - not regularly testing border staff (despite claiming that they do) is a spectacular failure. Management 101 is checking instead of trusting that something might happen ... and they haven't been very good doing that. They failed in this category not once, not twice, but many times. They didn't even learn that they can't trust our officials. Point taken.

Not sure though why you don't want a comparison with what National would have done. Unfortunately the election (whenever it might happen) is not an academic rating exercise - it is the attempt to pick the better candidate out of a quite limited candidate pool (i.e. Labor led government or National led government - that's it).

You are correct in pointing out that the current government made a number of mistakes ... however - lets not forget that the previous National government made as well a number of capital mistakes in the execution of their crisis management (like GFC, ChCh earth quakes) at the time. It is like checking and comparing the eye sight of people with severe eye sight impairments.

Looking forward the only relevant question would be whether for the next three years a Labor government (standalone or supplemented by Green) be a better choice for New Zealand than a National government supplemented by ACT, Maori and NZ First)?

Looking at the values / policies and the leadership qualities of their respective leaders I think for most Labor / Green will stand out (unless you like a bully in the top job and are a fan of Trumpesk justice and gun policies).

Looking at the respective management outcomes I agree both "candidates" demonstrated at different points in times that there is huge improvement potential.

Lets not forget - successive National as well as Labor governments

• have been responsible for running down our health system.
• have been responsible for running down our environment, allowing that our once clear lakes and rivers are now sewage and that our drinking water in most parts of New Zealand is polluted.
• screwed up our justice system (lock them up and throw the key away) and created that way a society with the highest number of incarcerated people outside the Trumpesk States of America.
• moved our education system for what used to be in the 1950 ..ies the envy of the developed world to something quite mediocre. Interesting that many of our prisoners are not even able to read and write ... maybe there is a link between poor education and high incarceration?

So - yes, they both have a terrible track record, but at least with Labor / Green it appears they want to move into the right direction.

[fungus pudding]

To be fair - we don't know yet, how this second out brake came into the country (or whether it was always here), maybe we still might all learn something new about the virus?

Having said that, I agree - not regularly testing border staff (despite claiming that they do) is a spectacular failure. Management 101 is checking instead of trusting that something might happen ... and they haven't been very good doing that. They failed in this category not once, not twice, but many times. They didn't even learn that they can't trust our officials. Point taken.

Not sure though why you don't want a comparison with what National would have done. Unfortunately the election (whenever it might happen) is not an academic rating exercise - it is the attempt to pick the better candidate out of a quite limited candidate pool (i.e. Labor led government or National led government - that's it).

You are correct in pointing out that the current government made a number of mistakes ... however - lets not forget that the previous National government made as well a number of capital mistakes in the execution of their crisis management (like GFC, ChCh earth quakes) at the time. It is like checking and comparing the eye sight of people with severe eye sight impairments.

Looking forward the only relevant question would be whether for the next three years a Labor government (standalone or supplemented by Green) be a better choice for New Zealand than a National government supplemented by ACT, Maori and NZ First)?

Looking at the values / policies and the leadership qualities of their respective leaders I think for most Labor / Green will stand out (unless you like a bully in the top job and are a fan of Trumpesk justice and gun policies).

Looking at the respective management outcomes I agree both "candidates" demonstrated at different points in times that there is huge improvement potential.

Lets not forget - successive National as well as Labor governments

• have been responsible for running down our health system.
• have been responsible for running down our environment, allowing that our once clear lakes and rivers are now sewage and that our drinking water in most parts of New Zealand is polluted.
• screwed up our justice system (lock them up and throw the key away) and created that way a society with the highest number of incarcerated people outside the Trumpesk States of America.
• moved our education system for what used to be in the 1950 ..ies the envy of the developed world to something quite mediocre. Interesting that many of our prisoners are not even able to read and write ... maybe there is a link between poor education and high incarceration?

So - yes, they both have a terrible track record, but at least with Labor / Green it appears they want to move into the right direction.

I agree that both parties have made their mistakes over the years, and always will. Equally they have both done good and worthwhile things, leaving NZ as a highly desirable country in which to live. As a swinging voter I always vote in the most effective way to block my lowest preference. This election my least preferred party will be Labour. They certainly can provide us with the best Prime Minister - but they are short of talent with the exception of a small handful of others. National is the opposite. A reasonably competent bunch - but I'm not impressed with the leader. But overall they offer more talent than Labour, and the best way to get Nat winning, thereby denying Labour, is to vote Act. That's looking like my likely vote for 2020.

[Bjauck]

Nobody is expecting a perfect response but failing spectacularly on the basics of protecting NZers at the border - twice? ...

And please, spare us whether National or Simon or John or David can do better ir worse - let's discuss this government of the here and now.

Fair enough?

Obviously the border must improve. Let’s hope that there is someone with expert advice as to how this can be put into effect.

You had previously said that “nobody could possibly have done worse than this government” so that implied you had been making a comparison assessment with other people. However now you say that comparisons are not valid!

If you make posts condemning the current government on the National Party forum, you are presumably inviting discussion as to how the National Party handling of the situation may compare?

Former National leader Simon Bridges was the MP who could well have formed the government after the last election, if Peters had swung his way. So he is the most apt person to consider how his handling of coronavirus may have differed from Ardern’s.

Now we must consider Fletcher and how she would perform. So far my assessment is that she has taken a leaf out of Trump’s playbook. I understand that for some people that is not a bad thing.

Nobody could possibly have done worse than this government - it had one job which is to protect our border and they have fallen flat on their faces, twice! ...

Obviously in an election year (probably although that may change!) comparisons of whom you think may do the best are vital! Who would do the better job? Tbh I do not know....although by a thin margin At the moment TOP followed by ACT may get my tick.

Luckily we have a (mostly) independent public service who are responsible for the day to day running of government departments and for giving effect to policy administration.