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  1. #6811
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    No, but you’ll meet plenty of orchard owners who are. Fruit picking is also not as simple as you would like to make out. Again, it is physically demanding with long hours, on your feet or up a ladder all day. My previous comments about farming and caregiving apply equally to orchard work. Yes, there will be some unemployed people who are able and capable to do it, but there will be some who are not. Try getting up and down a ladder a zillion times a day if you have a dicky knee. You have to remember that not everyone who is unemployed is in their 20s or 30s. Many are my age, and I can tell you now, I couldn’t pick fruit all day. The job I have is physically challenging enough at the age of 60.

    It is not always about laziness and unwillingness to work. That is the point I am trying to get you to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    You'll never meet an apple that's fussy about who picks it.

  2. #6812
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    The vast majority of fruit is exported and the consumer will pay for it. As far as I am concerned every person working in this country should be paid a living wage. Currently that is considered to be $22.10/hour. Pay people what they damned well need to live on and support their families and you will find people are much more willing to take up a job that might be inconvenient/not ideal, than they would at the minimum wage.

    Employers need to get with the programme and treat employees as a valuable asset. We all know full well that many big companies in particular are making ****loads of profit every year. They can afford to treat their workers better than the currently do. For the smaller businesses who can’t I have no problem with the government topping their wages up to the living wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    How much over the minimum wage should they offer, given the number available to work? How much more will consumers pay to eat fruit? The problem is - the growers have to compete with the dole.

  3. #6813
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    How much over the minimum wage should they offer, given the number available to work? How much more will consumers pay to eat fruit? The problem is - the growers have to compete with the dole.
    Exactly. Where will the new post-COVID equilibrium settle if you take foreign migrant workers out of the mix. Post COVID, will there be Higher or lower wage rates, greater or reduced social welfare, lower or higher agricultural land prices, lower or higher profits? Will wealth and income become more or less divergent?

  4. #6814
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    The vast majority of fruit is exported and the consumer will pay for it. As far as I am concerned every person working in this country should be paid a living wage. Currently that is considered to be $22.10/hour. .
    You do realise that that is a whole lot of nonsense. It may be $22.10 per hour in some places, but if you want to be equitable you really have to adjust it for regional differences and costs. I would wager that a wage of $15 per hour is better for a person living in Southland than a $25 per hour wage for someone living in Auckland. But this whole "living wage" movement is BS predicated on nothing. If you do bring in a "Living wage", all it will do is raise all other wages relative, costs will increase, and no one will be better off. It will also just expedite the automation of low skilled jobs such that they rapidly disappear.

  5. #6815
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    No, but you’ll meet plenty of orchard owners who are. Fruit picking is also not as simple as you would like to make out. Again, it is physically demanding with long hours, on your feet or up a ladder all day. My previous comments about farming and caregiving apply equally to orchard work. Yes, there will be some unemployed people who are able and capable to do it, but there will be some who are not. Try getting up and down a ladder a zillion times a day if you have a dicky knee. You have to remember that not everyone who is unemployed is in their 20s or 30s. Many are my age, and I can tell you now, I couldn’t pick fruit all day. The job I have is physically challenging enough at the age of 60.

    It is not always about laziness and unwillingness to work. That is the point I am trying to get you to understand.
    Well, believe it or not, I do understand that. Just as not everyone can be a dressmaker or a telephonist.

  6. #6816
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    You do realise that that is a whole lot of nonsense. It may be $22.10 per hour in some places, but if you want to be equitable you really have to adjust it for regional differences and costs. I would wager that a wage of $15 per hour is better for a person living in Southland than a $25 per hour wage for someone living in Auckland. But this whole "living wage" movement is BS predicated on nothing. If you do bring in a "Living wage", all it will do is raise all other wages relative, costs will increase, and no one will be better off. It will also just expedite the automation of low skilled jobs such that they rapidly disappear.
    Spot on comments.

  7. #6817
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    The 'living wage' was based on a whole lot of research by some Christian social policy group. It costed in a wide range of items including a Sky dish, the occasional overseas trip. The second year the same 'basket of goods' was applied but the new amount was considered too high to be palatable so it was immediately adjusted down.

    Anyway, the whole exercise was based on a household of two adults and I think two children, one adult working full time and the other working part time. The Treasury reported at the time that those households comprised only about 6% of those who could expect to be on the living wage, and that those who most benefited were young single workers and the government through increased tax revenue and decreased transfers.

  8. #6818
    Guru justakiwi's Avatar
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    I do realise that a “a living wage” figure would need to be relative to location, but that is no different to how the accommodation supplement currently works. I disagree however that $15/hr is even remotely appropriate for any location. Nobody in this country can live in that. I couldn’t live on that even with my minimalist lifestyle. People deserve to be paid enough, for the work they do, to do more than just survive. Low income workers are doing jobs that you and I need someone to do - someone has to do them. We can’t all be lawyers and doctors or accountants or contractors. It is time that society recognised this and stopped judging these people and having the attitude that are are doing menial, unimportant jobs because they are uneducated or unskilled. I know someone who worked for NIWA with a double degree in whatever, who is now driving buses in Auckland. I have the brains and ability to be a lawyer, a teacher, a social worker or whatever else, but here I am working as a caregiver. Somebody has to do it, and I’m good at it, so it might as well be me. But I’m worth more than what I am currently paid, regardless of what you believe. Why is it acceptable for an accountant to be paid significantly more than I am? We both provide essential and valuable services. Who gets to dictate that I am worth less than you (whatever you do for a living?)

    Some sort of living wage is necessary because without it, we will never pull Kiwis in poverty out of that situation.

    PS. just read your latest post - I am talking about a sensible living wage, based on normal, every day costs. Nobody needs SKY TV, or an overseas trip every year. Those are luxuries, not basic necessities. I am talking about paying people enough to pay their mortgage or rent, feed their family healthy, nutritious food, clothe them, be able to pay for school activities and camps etc, meet household expenses, and have a little left over to save for emergencies. I am not proposing that this should cover luxury expenses.

    It bothers me greatly that people no longer seem to have any compassion for their fellow Kiwis. There but for the grace of God go I.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    You do realise that that is a whole lot of nonsense. It may be $22.10 per hour in some places, but if you want to be equitable you really have to adjust it for regional differences and costs. I would wager that a wage of $15 per hour is better for a person living in Southland than a $25 per hour wage for someone living in Auckland. But this whole "living wage" movement is BS predicated on nothing. If you do bring in a "Living wage", all it will do is raise all other wages relative, costs will increase, and no one will be better off. It will also just expedite the automation of low skilled jobs such that they rapidly disappear.
    Last edited by justakiwi; 26-10-2020 at 06:55 PM.

  9. #6819
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    I do realise that a “a living wage” figure would need to be relative to location, but that is no different to how the accommodation supplement currently works. I disagree however that $15/hr is even remotely appropriate for any location. Nobody in this country can live in that. I couldn’t live on that even with my minimalist lifestyle. People deserve to be paid enough, for the work they do, to do more than just survive. Low income workers are doing jobs that you and I need someone to do - someone has to do them. We can’t all be lawyers and doctors or accountants or contractors. It is time that society recognised this and stopped judging these people and having the attitude that are are doing menial, unimportant jobs because they are uneducated or unskilled. I know someone who worked for NIWA with a double degree in whatever, who is now driving buses in Auckland. I have the brains and ability to be a lawyer, a teacher, a social worker or whatever else, but here I am working as a caregiver. Somebody has to do it, and I’m good at it, so it might as well be me. But I’m worth more than what I am currently paid, regardless of what you believe. Why is it acceptable for an accountant to be paid significantly more than I am? We both provide essential and valuable services. Who gets to dictate that I am worth less than you (whatever you do for a living?)

    Some sort of living wage is necessary because without it, we will never pull Kiwis in poverty out of that situation.

    PS. just read your latest post - I am talking about a sensible living wage, based on normal, every day costs. Nobody needs SKY TV, or an overseas trip every year. Those are luxuries, not basic necessities. I am talking about paying people enough to pay their mortgage or rent, feed their family healthy, nutritious food, clothe them, be able to pay for school activities and camps etc, meet household expenses, and have a little left over to save for emergencies. I am not proposing that this should cover luxury expenses.

    It bothers me greatly that people no longer seem to have any compassion for their fellow Kiwis. There but for the grace of God go I.
    I love your passion but your not seeing the whole picture re why an Accountant for example should be paid more than yourself, think about how many full time yrs it took to become one, add to that all the business expenses like office rental, receptionist wages etc etc you need to cover before you even get off first base, someone like a self employed Dentist would have even more yrs of full-time study and a whole heap more expenses to cover, at the end of the day the market decides what an occupation is worth just like the sharemarket decides what your chosen share is worth whether you agree with it or not(I've learnt that one the very hard way a few times)

  10. #6820
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    … But this whole "living wage" movement is BS predicated on nothing. If you do bring in a "Living wage", all it will do is raise all other wages relative, costs will increase, and no one will be better off. It will also just expedite the automation of low skilled jobs such that they rapidly disappear.
    I agree, wage relativity becomes like a dog chasing its own tail.

    It would be great if capital is invested so that The NZ labour force becomes more productive. Automation along with NZ concentrating on developing an educated and highly skilled population would be great. Also the ability to afford and.to quickly retrain and adapt to new technology would be helpful.

    Hopefully Investment that helps to lift productivity and does not mainly drive up the price of land will be possible.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 26-10-2020 at 07:38 PM.

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