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  1. #3921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    You mean you hunt for something to complain about because that is your nature , that of a critic.Have a pint and say 10 hailmarys then do a ministry of silly walks, laugh your head off , its good medicine
    It's not that I don't have a sense of humour, it's just that we are dealing with the fundamentals of our society here. And a government that is prepared to run up intergenerational debt.

    Any casual observer can spot the ever increasing amounts of spin that accompany Ardern's briefings. (The briefings she said she was going to personally cut down on...until she realised what a golden propaganda opportunity they are).

    We have a bunch of incompetents running roughshod over everything Westen Democracy holds dear. It's easy to to shut everything down. Far harder to actually plot a course that balances Health vs Economy. This is where they are incompetent. How many lives will be lost over the next 5 years when Health and Social Services Budgets will be constrained by debt?

    It feels like they were still tweaking these Level 2 rules this morning. 6+ weeks after the levels system was announced. If I was running a 100 billion dollar business I sure as hell wouldn't put Cindy in charge. She'd make a handy PR spin doctor though.

  2. #3922
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    Tweaking is the norm in this super fast changing world, flexibility and adapting to constant change is vital, thank dog we have had such a responsible logical proactive govt. So far ,So very good...........

  3. #3923
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    If you seriously believe your human rights are being denied, I pity you. There are people all over the world who live with no human rights. They would swap places with you in a heartbeat. This is what is wrong with Western Society - everyone has this ridiculous sense of entitlement and think their throats are cut when are are a little inconvenienced. Your life in NZ is a life of luxury compared to those who genuinely have their human rights ignored. Girls being mutilated by forced circumcision, children being exploited in the sex industry, human trafficking and many, many other unconscionable acts of cruelty/exploitation. There is no comparison to what you are “being denied.’

    But God help Jacinda for locking you down for a few weeks.
    Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

  4. #3924
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    This comment is just a cop-out and shows how ignorant you are on the issues of human rights. Your assumption that these things only happen in so-called “Banana Republics” is incorrect. Maybe do some homework on the subject.

    BTW, there is a very big difference between imposing temporary restrictions on people, for the good of the wider population, and a government that exploits their power just because they can. The two scenarios are poles apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.

  5. #3925
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    This comment is just a cop-out and shows how ignorant you are on the issues of human rights. Your assumption that these things only happen in so-called “Banana Republics” is incorrect. Maybe do some homework on the subject.

    BTW, there is a very big difference between imposing temporary restrictions on people, for the good of the wider population, and a government that exploits their power just because they can. The two scenarios are poles apart.
    The nature of those restrictions, how they are imposed, for how long etc must always be up for debate. As for exploiting their position...Labour have been at that for weeks, with ever lengthening spin being applied by Ardern. The leaked email from her office over the weekend confirms how manipulative the inner sanctum is, and also spells out her lack of confidence in her Cabinet. That's something Ardern and I agree upon.

  6. #3926
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.
    The primary duty of any govt. should be protection of its citizens, and while the methods they chose will be debated for years, they honoured their duty. Inarguable.
    Last edited by fungus pudding; 11-05-2020 at 07:16 PM.

  7. #3927
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    Wtf do you guys actually want then? You whinge about absolutely everything the government does. You are never happy about anything. Would it hurt you to express even a modicum of appreciation for something? Youíre like a freaking bunch of 3 year olds.
    My guess is that most of the people on this forum are naturally right-leaning, capitalist types which probably explains some of it (certainly covers me off), but I think most of the unhappiness and discontent stems from the fact that very few mainstream commentators/journalists have appropriately held the Government to account.

  8. #3928
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    The primary duty of any govt. should be protection of it's citizens, and while the methods they chose will be debated for years, they honoured their duty. Inarguable.
    And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.

  9. #3929
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    It is so easy for you (and others) to put forward the “at what cost?” argument from the safety of your armchair. But I suspect that you might have a different perspective if you had lost a loved one to this virus, or had personal experience of being hospitalised with it. I expect the government of the day to do what they need to do to protect me, my family, and my fellow Kiwis. I don’t give a **** what that costs. Yes, I get that the economy is affected and I understand the consequences of that, but it will never come before the lives of human beings for me. Never. I am so grateful that we have a government that was not prepared to sacrifice lives. Thank God we don’t have a blithering idiot running the country, suggesting that scientists can pump us full of disinfectant, or claiming “a great result!” When 80,000 human beings are dead. I sometimes wonder if some people here are just so attached to wealth/financial security in one way or another, that they can no longer see beyond financial considerations. Makes me glad I’m poor because the day I start putting money ahead of human life, is the day you can put a bullet between my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.

  10. #3930
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.
    Not much point in ranking the the things we need to be protected from when obviously you see something else as their main duty. You seem to have fired off a strange response to my simple statement. I can't imagine what you have read into it. Good luck.
    Last edited by fungus pudding; 11-05-2020 at 07:27 PM.

  11. #3931
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    And what is the next thing we need protecting from? And what methods will they use? And how will it be paid for? And at what cost of lives in subsequent years? Specious argument, I think Fungus.
    Fundamentals of our society, Western democracy being ignored, inter generational debt. My fundamental human rights are being interfered with. My god, next we will have jack booted storm troopers marching down the main streets of NZ. People will be locked up for not keeping 2 metres apart.
    Get real you don't have human rights, you have obligations to family,society, and your country. You only have rights when someone forgets their obligations. The Govt has as has been suggested an obligation to protect itís citizens
    The word could is the most used word at the moment. This could happen and so on. Come back in 2 years and in hindsight tell us where they went wrong.

    westerly

  12. #3932
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.
    I agree with you on this point. Western Society has developed along a twin track of enabling safety, order & prosperity along with personal liberty & human rights. The argument that you should not worry as others have fewer freedoms or rights, would tend to reduce the vigilance to maintain - and improve - existing rights.

    From Magna Carta, habeas corpus, through to Bill of Rights and Race Relations Act, these should all be jealously protected from Executive Incursion - even in and perhaps especially in a crisis. Government should be held to account. Executives would otherwise tend to prefer to act with impunity and without scrutiny.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 11-05-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  13. #3933
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    Well of course the rules have to be changed as circumstances change. We haven't had this situation before; there's no "user guide" for handling a pandemic, the characteristics of which are still not fully understood. Just be thankful that we don't have the UK's problems - four countries, four different ideas as to the next step to take; announcing an arrivals quarantine, eventually, details and timing yet to be determined! Fred Dagg was right, we don't know how lucky we are!

  14. #3934
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Happily we in this country value the principles that keep our democracy stable and working. Comparing it to a Banana Republic and telling me I'm lucky doesn't cut it. Even seemingly benign governments will impose as much power over the individual as they can. To lazily give up Human Rights is a very dangerous thing to do.
    Yup - notice how the narrative from Cindyís apologists is always to compare with the worse, rather than the best?

    Oh, we are doing so well In containing the virus compared to the US or the UK but letís not compare against Taiwan, HK etc.

  15. #3935
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    Why do we have to compare to anybody? Why can’t we simply accept and be be grateful for the fact that we have averted a potential disaster? And don’t try to tell me we would have achieved that without our government’s lockdown actions because that is just a fantasy. As with any project, task or whatever - there is always more than one way to skin a cat. As others have said, there is no rule book for covid19. Every country in the world was flying blind. Every country in the world had to formulate a plan of action for their citizens. Our plan might have been different from some other country’s, but it worked. Read my lips .... it worked!

    Things will be tough for a while - everywhere. We do not have that on our own. But we will get through it, like every other difficult situation NZ has been through. Your negative, constantly pessimistic attitude helps nobody. Least of all you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    Yup - notice how the narrative from Cindy’s apologists is always to compare with the worse, rather than the best?

    Oh, we are doing so well In containing the virus compared to the US or the UK but let’s not compare against Taiwan, HK etc.

  16. #3936
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    "It was also disappointing to hear the Prime Minister say she's worked with the hospitality association to come up with these guidelines and that's not true at all. We were told about the rules about an hour before. Telling someone what the rules are isn't working with the sector."

    Hospitality NZ Wellington branch's Matt McLaughlin quoted in Stuff.

    Level 2 rules made up on the hoof after having 6+ weeks to prepare. But don't worry...Cindy doesn't have to justify...she can dismiss. At least according to her own office.

  17. #3937
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    Its a job done well in incredibly fast evolving, first time circumstances cant you acknowledge that reality.
    Whats apologising got to do with anything, you're barking up a wilding pine there.

  18. #3938
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Level 2 rules made up on the hoof after having 6+ weeks to prepare. But don't worry...Cindy doesn't have to justify...she can dismiss. At least according to her own office.
    I can imagine the bitching if they have made the L2 rules 6 weeks ago and stuck to them without looking at what has happened since then.
    The understanding of how covid-19 works and what measures work and don't is continually evolving.
    Wait until the L2 rules change again in the next few weeks as they learn what is good and what needs work.
    It is a good thing that they aren't wedded hard to one stance and are willing to learn as they go. There is no manual for this!

  19. #3939
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    Quote Originally Posted by justakiwi View Post
    Why do we have to compare to anybody? Why can’t we simply accept and be be grateful for the fact that we have averted a potential disaster? And don’t try to tell me we would have achieved that without our government’s lockdown actions because that is just a fantasy. As with any project, task or whatever - there is always more than one way to skin a cat. As others have said, there is no rule book for covid19. Every country in the world was flying blind. Every country in the world had to formulate a plan of action for their citizens. Our plan might have been different from some other country’s, but it worked. Read my lips .... it worked!

    Things will be tough for a while - everywhere. We do not have that on our own. But we will get through it, like every other difficult situation NZ has been through. Your negative, constantly pessimistic attitude helps nobody. Least of all you.
    Pessimistic? Have a read of what I wrote when the market fell out of bed and crashed in March - I dare you to find anyone else on this forum with the optimistic conviction I wrote then.

    https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showth...-gets-it-right

    Point that it worked is great - nobody disagrees with it.

    But did NZ need a hammer to crack the nut, when other countries like Taiwan, HK, Australia and South Korea to name 4 showed we did not to.

    The wasteland of joblessness and unemployment which Cindy & her incompetents bequeath from the hammer blows will reverberate in depression, hopelessness, debt burden and suicides for years to come.

    That is the point which you miss - you don't need a hammer to crack a nut.

  20. #3940
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    No, this is the point you are missing. You can only make the comment below based on hindsight. Until the various countries enacted their respective plans of action, nobody knew what would or would not work. That is the reality. Nobody had the benefit of hindsight when they were making those decisions, so you are being totally unfair by continuing to use those comparisons as your “proof” that our government “screwed up.” They did not.

    Btw, you need to stop referencing suicide in your arguments - seriously. Mental health experts were talking about this just the other day. When people like you constantly use “there will be an explosion of depression and suicides” propaganda, it has the potential to negatively influence people who may be struggling. Those people need positive messages from the rest of us, not doom and gloom messages that make them believe life is no longer worth living. There is currently no evidence that your claims are even correct. It is nothing more than scaremongering that you have adopted to support your arguments. I am sure even you, do not want blood on your hands. And just so you know, I am deadly serious about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    That is the point which you miss - you don't need a hammer to crack a nut.
    Last edited by justakiwi; 12-05-2020 at 10:43 AM.

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