Labour / NZ First Government

[jonu]

Here is a link to a well thought out article. I agree with parts, disagree with others, but it might explain as to why debate is important.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/12-...s-contrarians/

[Balance]

Btw, you need to stop referencing suicide in your arguments - seriously. Mental health experts were talking about this just the other day. When people like you constantly use “there will be an explosion of depression and suicides” propaganda, it has the potential to negatively influence people who may be struggling. Those people need positive messages from the rest of us, not doom and gloom messages that make them believe life is no longer worth living. There is currently no evidence that your claims are even correct. It is nothing more than scaremongering that you have adopted to support your arguments. I am sure even you, do not want blood on your hands. And just so you know, I am deadly serious about this.

And I am deadly serious, having seen the devastating effect of high unemployment during the late 1980s & late 1990s, that this government better have good policies and help in place for the explosion of unemployment to come when the wage subsidy runs out.

You mean well, justakiwi, but read this article and you will see that there is a direct link between suicides & unemployment :

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...de-finds-study

No point having the head in the sand - acknowledge the problem and deal to it.

Cindy & her ilk:

- are very prolific with spending tax-payers' money recklessly,

- have had a charmed life, living off the taxes paid by those who take risks and employ NZers,

- have not got a clue about creating real jobs,

yet the many Mom & Dad self-employed & employers are the very people they are kicking in the teeth, offering zero direct help!

They have no idea of how terrible things are going to get for the many tens of thousands who are going to be unemployed due to the ham-fisted lockdown strategy.

Blood on my hands? I am making the obvious observation - blood is going to be on the hands of Cindy & her bunch of incompetent ministers if they continue to make policies with a socialist bent rather than help all NZers.

[fungus pudding]

No, this is the point you are missing. You can only make the comment below based on hindsight. Until the various countries enacted their respective plans of action, nobody knew what would or would not work. That is the reality. Nobody had the benefit of hindsight when they were making those decisions, so you are being totally unfair by continuing to use those comparisons as your “proof” that our government “screwed up.” They did not.

Btw, you need to stop referencing suicide in your arguments - seriously. Mental health experts were talking about this just the other day. When people like you constantly use “there will be an explosion of depression and suicides” propaganda, it has the potential to negatively influence people who may be struggling. Those people need positive messages from the rest of us, not doom and gloom messages that make them believe life is no longer worth living. There is currently no evidence that your claims are even correct. It is nothing more than scaremongering that you have adopted to support your arguments. I am sure even you, do not want blood on your hands. And just so you know, I am deadly serious about this.

If there is no evidence that Balances claims are correct as you claim, why do you think that positive messages, which you say are needed, would magically have an effect?
Can you not understand that the success of NZ's approach can-not be measured on the minute amount of evidence available? It may have been beneficial, but then it may prove to be disastrous. We just don't know. Lets see what the next ten to twenty years bring.

[justakiwi]

I didn’t say positive messages would have a magical effect. I said they would be preferable to Balance’s comments about the pending tsunami of suicides, which have the potential to do harm. It is the message being sent by mental health authorities - not just me.

Yes I do understand that we have limited evidence, but so is the evidence from the countries Balance thinks did a better job. Time will provide us with greater knowledge and down the track, if we ever face a situation like this again, the entire world may be better prepared. Or ... the next virus may be a completely different kettle of fish, and we may all have to start from scratch all over again.

If there is no evidence that Balances claims are correct as you claim, why do you think that positive messages, which you say are needed, would magically have an effect?
Can you not understand that the success of NZ's approach can-not be measured on the minute amount of evidence available? It may have been beneficial, but then it may prove to be disastrous. We just don't know. Lets see what the next ten to twenty years bring.

[justakiwi]

Don’t do that

You mean well, justakiwi.....

[Balance]

And I am deadly serious, having seen the devastating effect of high unemployment during the late 1980s & late 1990s, that this government better have good policies and help in place for the explosion of unemployment to come when the wage subsidy runs out.

And the explosion of unemployment continues (even before the wage subsidy runs out):

Bunnings - 170+ jobs

Sky City - 700+ jobs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121...f-seven-stores

[winner69]

And the explosion of unemployment continues (even before the wage subsidy runs out):

Bunnings - 170+ jobs

Sky City - 700+ jobs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121...f-seven-stores

Lot of Aussie based HQs taking the opportunity to tune up their NZ operations and squeeze as much as they can out if NZers wallets.

A few more to come I reckon ...after that NZ Steel pipe division, Hardies fibre cement, Bunnings etc etc

[Balance]

Lot of Aussie based HQs taking the opportunity to tune up their NZ operations and squeeze as much as they can out if NZers wallets.

A few more to come I reckon ...after that NZ Steel pipe division, Hardies fibre cement, Bunnings etc etc

Very pertinent observation of what is happening.

Unfortunately it happens every recession - the foreign companies will always preserve jobs in their home countries first.

Where are the replacement jobs going to come from?

[dobby41]

And the explosion of unemployment continues (even before the wage subsidy runs out):

Bunnings - 170+ jobs

Sky City - 700+ jobs

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121...f-seven-stores

I can understand Sky City - they don't have a business for a while - but Bunnings?
Using covid as an excuse.
Recently have a new, large, Bunnings on the south side of Hamilton, closer to Cambridge and Te Awamutu so I can understand those - not covid related.

[fungus pudding]

I didn’t say positive messages would have a magical effect. I said they would be preferable to Balance’s comments about the pending tsunami of suicides, which have the potential to do harm. It is the message being sent by mental health authorities - not just me.

Yes I do understand that we have limited evidence, but so is the evidence from the countries Balance thinks did a better job. Time will provide us with greater knowledge and down the track, if we ever face a situation like this again, the entire world may be better prepared. Or ... the next virus may be a completely different kettle of fish, and we may all have to start from scratch all over again.

And what do the mental health 'authorities' (whoever they are) say about not bringing out the data for the benefit of school teachers, social workers, parents, doctors , police, magistrates, the population at large etc? There are experts who point to the benefit of making such things completely open. Very hard to intervene in a problem if you are not aware of the wide extent of the problem. Think about it.