Labour / NZ First Government

[Balance]

..and yet for some the financial rewards have often come more from the increase in the equity of their own home, as result from falling interest rates boosting valuations. Yet it is their hard work, physical and mental, that is taxed.

Oh - but for a CGT.

[Stumpynuts]

Of course there will be additional costs and inconveniences!

Plus, it is impossible to believe that there are no unemployed individuals within driving distances to the orchards and gardens. I know for a fact that farms in Pukekohe and Henderson in Auckland are screaming out for workers and the only ones they can get are Indian students* and seasonal workers. Some of the farms provide vans to pick up the workers in the mornings and drop them back after work.

Many of my fellow university friends decamped to Central Otago to tend orchards and pick fruits over the summer holidays, staying in rooms in boarding houses so they can save money for the year ahead.

How's this for an out of left field idea to get the fruit picked for a lower cost (or for free?) - I'm not sure if it even happens already?

Get high school aged students to take up the orchard fruit picking by having it as part of class work towards NCEA credits (Science and PE subjects mainly)
Even if it's only half a day actually picking, and the other half sitting down on site with some related class lessons ie. Science students working towards Agriscience, or biology - They get to learn about planting, crop maintenance etc.
PE students learn about body physical fatigue, muscle recovery or what not.

Students wouldn't get paid, but they would get a day/s out of the classroom and the orchard company would pay for food and provide a portacom building for students to sit down.

[fungus pudding]

..and yet for some the financial rewards have often come more from the increase in the equity of their own home, as result from falling interest rates boosting valuations. Yet it is their hard work, physical and mental, that is taxed.

It seems you agree that a fair and effective CGT would tax owner occupied homes, which will never happen because it would be political seppuku.

[westerly]

It seems you agree that a fair and effective CGT would tax owner occupied homes, which will never happen because it would be political seppuku.

I suppose the proceeds from the sale of most owner occupied houses would be used to purchase a new place to reside. This would adsorb most if not all the capital gain.
A prime reason to not tax the family home. Hit them with death duties.

westerly

[dobby41]

I suppose the proceeds from the sale of most owner occupied houses would be used to purchase a new place to reside. This would adsorb most if not all the capital gain.

And that is certainly an issue.
Some years back I built a house for $300k.
I sold it 8 years later for $650k and built a very similar house (same spec and size etc) and it cost me ---- $630k.
So no real capital gain there!

[justakiwi]

OK, I am going to ask you a question I have resisted the urge to ask you before ...

Have you ever been on the unemployment benefit?

As you already know, I have. Twice. I have tried and tried to provide you with some insight into the realities of being unemployed and reliant on government assistance, but you seen incapable or unwilling to even attempt to look at things from any perspective other than your own. Yes, I know there are some people who take advantage of the “system” which is probably more to do with their family situation and less than ideal role models when they were growing up, than it is to do with simple laziness. But you have to stop treating all unemployed people as if they were in this category. They are not. People become unemployed all manner of reasons. My ex was made redundant many years ago and spent a short period of time on the dole out of necessity. I had four children to support post our separation so yes, I had to suck it up and go on the DPB. For a great deal longer than I ever anticipated because jobs were hard to get where I lived and finding one that works for you when you are raising four kids on your own, is bloody difficult! I did work part job in a furniture factory for 3 months, but at $10/hr and a distance to get to and from work, I ended up with literally nothing in my hand. I also ended up with RSS in my elbows and shoulders which has never gone away. My second experience was much later in life - before I got my current job. I had a part time job for several months, but my job was terminated because I developed a chronic cough. Yep, a freaking cough. Apparently working on reception at a medical centre, with a cough, wasn’t a good look. So due to no fault of my own, I found myself unemployed. It took me almost two years to get the job I have now. Do you have any idea what that was like? The only reason WINZ didn’t get on my case about it, was because they could see just how much effort I was putting into finding a job. Application after application. Many interviews. But rejection after rejection. Ageism is rife in the admin field. Do you seriously believe that I chose this for myself? And don’t tell me I’m the exception to the rule because that’s total BS. There are plenty of people in the same position I was in.

Yes, working gives you a huge sense of self satisfaction and personal motivation and achievement, but you can’t pay your bills and feed your kids with it. Money isn’t just important to people in your position Balance. People at the bottom of the scrap heap need it even more than you do. So yeah, the costs involved with doing seasonal work are relevant and cannot simply be ignored.

Oh, and just so you know Balance, I achieved my Diploma in ICT via the government. Yep, social assistance in the form of a Study Incentive Allowance (or whatever it was called back then). But guess what? I don’t feel bad about that - not one little bit. I needed help to do it and it got me my job at CYF for 8 years. I couldn’t have done it without that assistance. I’m sure you will be pissed that your tax dollars went to help me with that, but now that I am employed again, I am more than happy for mine to help someone else.

Of course there will be additional costs and inconveniences!

What is unquantifiable are the huge & extremely uplifting benefits of being in gainful employment providing a purpose in life, being in the company of like minded hard working people and being in the fresh air - more than compensating for the additional costs and inconveniences.

Plus, it is impossible to believe that there are no unemployed individuals within driving distances to the orchards and gardens. I know for a fact that farms in Pukekohe and Henderson in Auckland are screaming out for workers and the only ones they can get are Indian students* and seasonal workers. Some of the farms provide vans to pick up the workers in the mornings and drop them back after work.

*Incidentally, notice how fast food places and supermarkets are staffed in the main by overseas workers (as in *Indian & Asian students) these days in Auckland? Because they have and are willing to work while NZers are at home because they can and are on the dough.

Just so you know, justakwi - I put myself through university working at three places during the week while studying, putting in at least 30 hours a week over 3 years (2 restaurants & a wood work factory) so I do not have much sympathy or empathy for anyone who thinks that life should be easy and moan about the benefits not being enough. Many of my fellow university friends decamped to Central Otago to tend orchards and pick fruits over the summer holidays, staying in rooms in boarding houses so they can save money for the year ahead.

[moka]

If a currently unemployed person were to take up some of the seasonal work what happens when it ends (it is seasonal after all)?
Can they go straight back on the benefit or is there a 13 week stand down?
If there is a stand down then that doesn't really work does it?
So, maybe they can tweak the system to allow for this.
Also, when I travel from Hamilton to the Hawkes Bay to do some pruning, picking or whatever I've got to find accommodation as well as continue to pay the accommodation for my family left in Hamilton.
A few fish hooks that need to be worked through.

Another fish hook is accommodation – housing shortage. If you are single, rent in Hamilton do you give up your flat, move, sell, store your furniture and hope you can find suitable short term accommodation in say Nelson (pay a bond for a flat?), and then hope you can find another flat when you move back to Hamilton. The costs involved do not make economic sense in many cases.

Also many unemployed live payday to payday with no back up savings, so no money for travelling. I was going to go fruitpicking back when I was in my twenties (1970s), and I had savings, a vehicle, and no concerns about accommodation, so it seemed like an adventure to me. I didn’t do it as I went overseas instead.

[moka]

If the family home was taxed under capital gains it would deter people from moving to another job in another city because they would not be able to purchase an equivalent home, which would not be good for the employee, the business, the economy and NZ as a whole.

[moka]

Heather du Plessis-Allan says Isn’t the problem really that this work (fruitpicking) is seasonal. It's gig work. It’s not year round.
So it’s always only ever going to attract the likes of students, backpackers, and international workers. People who only need short stints of work. People who don’t mind hostel-like accommodation because it’s for a short period of time.
That’s not going to work for kiwis with families is it? You can hardly move your family to Hawke’s bay for a few weeks’ worth of work can you?

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/...it-pickers-in/

[justakiwi]

Depending on how long the temp work was for, their benefit would be suspended every week they earned more than their usual benefit payment. Problem with that is, you declare your earnings in the week you earn it not the week you get paid for it, so someone could potentially find the self/their family, with no income at all for two weeks (or more depending on timing and pay schedule of orchard etc).

If a currently unemployed person were to take up some of the seasonal work what happens when it ends (it is seasonal after all)?
Can they go straight back on the benefit or is there a 13 week stand down?
If there is a stand down then that doesn't really work does it?
So, maybe they can tweak the system to allow for this.
Also, when I travel from Hamilton to the Hawkes Bay to do some pruning, picking or whatever I've got to find accommodation as well as continue to pay the accommodation for my family left in Hamilton.
A few fish hooks that need to be worked through.