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Thread: Direct Broking

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    Send all the principal's a link to this thread.
    Great, lets hope DB will step up to the mark improve their systems and participate in the discussion.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by forest View Post
    DB used to get orders to market within 1 or 2 minutes. Now at times it can take the best part of an hour.
    I even have had an Buy order partly filled, and the balance of the order not showing up on the debt. Subsequent transactions were lower than my buy order which was being ignored, then the price jumped and I had to increase the buy offer to get it filled.
    I suspect that they tried to fill the order in house.

    On top of that it seems returning e-mails is not a priority, still waiting for an answer of an e-mail send in December.
    Yesterday and today I tried to get hold of Aaron McGrath, the Client Experience Manager by phone no luck.
    I am not impressed.
    Sad sad way how direct broking seem to be loosing the plot.
    They probably do not care. No money in the traditional retail client side of things anyway. So they can ignore you and hope you go away. And if they do they go great, that's another customer that makes us no money that we do not have to worry about. Maybe a bit cynical or sarcastic maybe, but I wonder if there is any money in making $30 a trade with NZ retail punters with all the costs involved. Real money to be made elsewhere of course.
    So why did FNZC purchase Direct Broking off ANZ? Probably for the database of clients to be able to sell their IPO's and other products to. And after a year when brokerage may go up, plenty may leave and try ASB out for size. Not sure if I even am correct here but that is how I see it.
    If there was real money to be made in NZ selling brokerage at $30 a pop there would be more operators out there. But there are not. Access could not do it back in the day and went under and Direct back in the day was not a cash cow. It did ok but that was about it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    They probably do not care. No money in the traditional retail client side of things anyway. So they can ignore you and hope you go away. And if they do they go great, that's another customer that makes us no money that we do not have to worry about. Maybe a bit cynical or sarcastic maybe, but I wonder if there is any money in making $30 a trade with NZ retail punters with all the costs involved. Real money to be made elsewhere of course.
    So why did FNZC purchase Direct Broking off ANZ? Probably for the database of clients to be able to sell their IPO's and other products to. And after a year when brokerage may go up, plenty may leave and try ASB out for size. Not sure if I even am correct here but that is how I see it.
    If there was real money to be made in NZ selling brokerage at $30 a pop there would be more operators out there. But there are not. Access could not do it back in the day and went under and Direct back in the day was not a cash cow. It did ok but that was about it.
    Hi Blackcap,
    I use a site in the USA for US stuff and they are trade commission free.
    Check out Firstrade.
    Regards,
    -dodgy

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.rexjr View Post
    It's straight out hopeless for trading. The data is live. Your orders simply aren't placed until the broker is back from their coffee/toilet break. Took them 41 minutes to place a market sell once. I now only use them for my looooong term investments where it's unlikely that I'll need to take hasty action.
    Sorry but on my PC and their platform the data isn't live,on my TA platform (tradingview)the data is live and changes as price and volume changes,it isn't on direct broking unless you refresh.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.rexjr View Post
    Is CHI-X no longer quoted in the depth and sales?

    (Answer yes it does but not until market open it would seem)
    Thats simply because CHI-X don't run pre-open and close auction processes

    I had always found ANZ SEC order processing appalling, but it seems it's got even worse. I have never had a problem with ASB, as they use Straight through Order Processes, but their exchange rates are usurious
    Last edited by Xerof; 19-02-2019 at 05:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    They probably do not care. No money in the traditional retail client side of things anyway. So they can ignore you and hope you go away. And if they do they go great, that's another customer that makes us no money that we do not have to worry about. Maybe a bit cynical or sarcastic maybe, but I wonder if there is any money in making $30 a trade with NZ retail punters with all the costs involved. Real money to be made elsewhere of course.
    So why did FNZC purchase Direct Broking off ANZ? Probably for the database of clients to be able to sell their IPO's and other products to. And after a year when brokerage may go up, plenty may leave and try ASB out for size. Not sure if I even am correct here but that is how I see it.
    If there was real money to be made in NZ selling brokerage at $30 a pop there would be more operators out there. But there are not. Access could not do it back in the day and went under and Direct back in the day was not a cash cow. It did ok but that was about it.
    Make no mistake they will be making money with a lot of ability to match orders in house and double clip the ticket.

  7. #27
    Senior Member kizame's Avatar
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    I think there are a lot on here that maybe havn't paid $30 for a trade for a long time,myself included,because they trade bigger quantities,I actually tried to get my brokerage dropped without any luck, because I did think with the antiquated system they have,and with the extra pain of not knowing for ages whether your trade has gone through or not,it was just such easy money for them.And lets remember that's in and out, of a trade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by couta1 View Post
    Make no mistake they will be making money with a lot of ability to match orders in house and double clip the ticket.
    How is that double clipping the ticket? There is a buy order, yours, and a sell order someone else's. If they match you both off in house its $30 bucks a pop or $60. If they buy yours on market and sell the other order on market its still $30 each. So not really double clipping is it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    How is that double clipping the ticket? There is a buy order, yours, and a sell order someone else's. If they match you both off in house its $30 bucks a pop or $60. If they buy yours on market and sell the other order on market its still $30 each. So not really double clipping is it.
    Your assuming that both buyer and seller are DB clients yet a lot of the time they are only gaining the $30 from one side of the transaction unless both buyer and seller are DB clients.They have a far wider matching ability now with FNZC on tap and a much bigger pool of easily accessible clients for matching orders.
    Last edited by couta1; 19-02-2019 at 10:45 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by couta1 View Post
    Your assuming that both buyer and seller are DB clients yet a lot of the time they are only gaining the $30 from one side of the transaction unless both buyer and seller are DB clients.They have a far wider matching ability now with FNZC on tap and a much bigger pool of easily accessible clients for matching orders.
    You right Couta and that I think works in DB clients disadvantage.
    It seems when a order is placed that FNZC is trying to trade the order in house, this can give time delays maybe an hour or so.
    They are creating 2 problems with that, firstly the market can move agains you. But of even more concern is the extra time spend wondering if the order has been actioned on and /if the order is completed or needs adjusting.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by couta1 View Post
    Your assuming that both buyer and seller are DB clients yet a lot of the time they are only gaining the $30 from one side of the transaction unless both buyer and seller are DB clients.They have a far wider matching ability now with FNZC on tap and a much bigger pool of easily accessible clients for matching orders.
    no disagree. FNZC owns DB (DB is FNZC) so still no double clipping as you had put it. Sorry but the only reason I can think of for matching in house is to get better outcomes for both sets (or at least one) of clients.

    Ie you say sell my TRA down to 2.28 for an order or 100k. FNZC know they also have a buyer wanting to buy x amount that day at all sorts of prices ranging from 2.30 to 2.33. They might then fill your sell order at 2.31 with the client so that you get a better deal and the client picks up some at a good price too.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    no disagree. FNZC owns DB (DB is FNZC) so still no double clipping as you had put it. Sorry but the only reason I can think of for matching in house is to get better outcomes for both sets (or at least one) of clients.

    Ie you say sell my TRA down to 2.28 for an order or 100k. FNZC know they also have a buyer wanting to buy x amount that day at all sorts of prices ranging from 2.30 to 2.33. They might then fill your sell order at 2.31 with the client so that you get a better deal and the client picks up some at a good price too.
    We will agree to disagree, we seem to be looking at things very differently, regardless they are making heaps.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by couta1 View Post
    We will agree to disagree, we seem to be looking at things very differently, regardless they are making heaps.
    Fair enough.

    What I am not happy about with DB is the amount of time it takes to get the order to market. And there are no excuses for that whatsoever.

    When I used to work for DB as a broker (long time ago now) when an order came in you were supposed to get it to market within 30 seconds. See the order, check if there are other DB orders it could be matched with, if so, do the match, if not, execute the order on screen.
    I am guessing that since most FNZC orders will not be on the screen to start with it can be a complicated mess asking all the other brokers "do you have a buyer for xxx" or does anyone have a seller for "xxx". Especially if said broker is out to lunch or on a call.
    At DB we did have institutional brokers but they usually told us what they were looking for to buy or sell so you had a pretty good idea of what could be in house matched. Sometimes I did put something on the screen (executed a trade) to have a broker angrily come and say "i had a client who wanted those" but generally it worked fine.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Fair enough.

    What I am not happy about with DB is the amount of time it takes to get the order to market. And there are no excuses for that whatsoever.

    When I used to work for DB as a broker (long time ago now) when an order came in you were supposed to get it to market within 30 seconds. See the order, check if there are other DB orders it could be matched with, if so, do the match, if not, execute the order on screen.
    I am guessing that since most FNZC orders will not be on the screen to start with it can be a complicated mess asking all the other brokers "do you have a buyer for xxx" or does anyone have a seller for "xxx". Especially if said broker is out to lunch or on a call.
    At DB we did have institutional brokers but they usually told us what they were looking for to buy or sell so you had a pretty good idea of what could be in house matched. Sometimes I did put something on the screen (executed a trade) to have a broker angrily come and say "i had a client who wanted those" but generally it worked fine.
    You describe mechanisms that computers do very well very quickly.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
    Fair enough.

    What I am not happy about with DB is the amount of time it takes to get the order to market. And there are no excuses for that whatsoever.
    It is very concerning. I am also deeply concerned with the cultural difference between how ANZ securities ran the business and FCNZ.
    FCNZ take an extremely liberal approach to using their market discretion. Let me post a good example. The other day I placed a small top up order for 1500 Synlait with a $9.68 limit. There were several thousand on offer at that price. It did not appear to be processed for about 10 minutes so I phoned to find out what was going on.
    Best bid was $9.62 and the previous days close was $9.56 (down 32 cps). I was told the didn't want to hit the bid at $9.68 because that would involve an untoward movement in the share price.
    They want stability and order in the market, or words to that effect. This seems bizarre given the previous days share price decline. I hardly think a trade that adds 12 cents to the share price after a 32 cents per share decline the day before is disorderly or inappropriate in any way.
    My response. Well if the share price runs away north I expect you have a legal obligation to fill my order at $9.68 and I'll be looking to enforce that obligation. As long as its clear the risk is on FCNZ that's fine. The order was filled at $9.65 about 2 hours later but the point is I placed an order at a price limit for immediate execution and they delayed it for reasons that I think are unreasonable.
    This discretion thing they have and use is really getting on my nerves.
    Solomon actually left us with some investment advice about proper diversification in Ecclesiastes 11:2: Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth. Proverbs 27:12 "The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty".

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    It is very concerning. I am also deeply concerned with the cultural difference between how ANZ securities ran the business and FCNZ.
    FCNZ take an extremely liberal approach to using their market discretion. Let me post a good example. The other day I placed a small top up order for 1500 Synlait with a $9.68 limit. There were several thousand on offer at that price. It did not appear to be processed for about 10 minutes so I phoned to find out what was going on.
    Best bid was $9.62 and the previous days close was $9.56 (down 32 cps). I was told the didn't want to hit the bid at $9.68 because that would involve an untoward movement in the share price.
    They want stability and order in the market, or words to that effect. This seems bizarre given the previous days share price decline. I hardly think a trade that adds 12 cents to the share price after a 32 cents per share decline the day before is disorderly or inappropriate in any way.
    My response. Well if the share price runs away north I expect you have a legal obligation to fill my order at $9.68 and I'll be looking to enforce that obligation. As long as its clear the risk is on FCNZ that's fine. The order was filled at $9.65 about 2 hours later but the point is I placed an order at a price limit for immediate execution and they delayed it for reasons that I think are unreasonable.
    This discretion thing they have and use is really getting on my nerves.
    they are following nzx rules , these very silly rules discourage trading hence why i do more overseas now than nz
    bull
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    It is very concerning. I am also deeply concerned with the cultural difference between how ANZ securities ran the business and FCNZ.
    FCNZ take an extremely liberal approach to using their market discretion. Let me post a good example. The other day I placed a small top up order for 1500 Synlait with a $9.68 limit. There were several thousand on offer at that price. It did not appear to be processed for about 10 minutes so I phoned to find out what was going on.
    Best bid was $9.62 and the previous days close was $9.56 (down 32 cps). I was told the didn't want to hit the bid at $9.68 because that would involve an untoward movement in the share price.
    They want stability and order in the market, or words to that effect. This seems bizarre given the previous days share price decline. I hardly think a trade that adds 12 cents to the share price after a 32 cents per share decline the day before is disorderly or inappropriate in any way.
    My response. Well if the share price runs away north I expect you have a legal obligation to fill my order at $9.68 and I'll be looking to enforce that obligation. As long as its clear the risk is on FCNZ that's fine. The order was filled at $9.65 about 2 hours later but the point is I placed an order at a price limit for immediate execution and they delayed it for reasons that I think are unreasonable.
    This discretion thing they have and use is really getting on my nerves.
    Frustrating, if the same happens with a sell order than your funds are locked up for this extra time, that can easily prevent you from timely putting the next buy order in.
    We are experience investors/traders, we are the market and we should decide if share prices are flat lining, go up or down slow or fast. We do not want baby sitting by our broker, full stop.

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    I would be surprised if it was NZX rules causing such extreme delays. Trades used to go to market within seconds. Read blackcap post, he is an ex DB broker employee.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by forest View Post
    Frustrating, if the same happens with a sell order than your funds are locked up for this extra time, that can easily prevent you from timely putting the next buy order in.
    We are experience investors/traders, we are the market and we should decide if share prices are flat lining, go up or down slow or fast. We do not want baby sitting by our broker, full stop.
    Exactly Forest. What on earth is wrong with a 12 cents share price rise on a $9.56 share, only a little over 1% when ATM the same morning was up 50 cents per share.
    Do they realise that these two companies fortunes are inextricably linked or don't they care about timely execution of orders ?
    Maybe its time to revisit the idea of dealing with ASB securities even though their brokerage rates are a bit higher...

    Agree with your last post too. Oder execution is extremely slow...not enough staff. They fully deserve to lose a significant amount of business if they continue to conduct themselves in this manner. No point emailing Fiona McKenzie their so called head of operations because she never replies or returns phone calls.
    https://www.fnzc.co.nz/direct-broking-team/
    Last edited by Beagle; 20-02-2019 at 11:11 AM.
    Solomon actually left us with some investment advice about proper diversification in Ecclesiastes 11:2: Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth. Proverbs 27:12 "The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty".

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    In ensuring their trading conduct promotes and helps maintain an orderly market, NZXParticipants consider a range of circumstances relevant to the current conditions of the marketfor any financial product. Accordingly, in allowing each Order to proceed through to the market,NZX Participants must first determine (among other things): Whether the execution of that Order is consistent with the recent trading activity in therelevant financial product; andGUIDANCE NOTE – TRADING CONDUCT – MARCH 2018 6 of 32 Whether the execution of that Order will materially affect the price or market for therelevant financial product.1

    https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws....ch_2018%29.pdf


    silly nzx rules discourage trading
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