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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    You left out one very important statistic Ferg.

    https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/new-z...wing-diversity

    Maori make up 16.5% of the NZ population in the 2020 census verses European at 70.2%. (4.2 times as many as Maori). So on a per population basis, Maori do seem heavily over represented, both in Cannabis charges and convictions.

    SNOOPY
    Thanks Snoopy. I did consider that but that does not take into account usage of cannabis for which I couldn't find a link or source. If usage stats are the same then it is relevant, if they aren't then the population stats would need to be amended for usage rates. Also keep in mind, that 84% of convictions by ethnicity include other offences, so these are not just "cannabis only" offences.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    You can't vote on a referendum if the people "don't really know what the gov't is proposing". Voting yes to allow the gov't to form a bunch of new laws around cannabis isn't going to cut it. Making it legal to have so many plants allowed to be cultivated in a home again, doesn't cut it if these plants are grown and consumed in a home where children live. There needs to be more guidelines ; not just a silly indication for the gov't to get talking about making cannabis legal.

    When John Key had the NZ flag referendum, it was clear cut ; people understood what they were voting for. It's very simple to keep flag or change it. But with the area of drugs, despite how alcohol having a bad track record (fault of not enough regulations? etc??), the gov't really needs to be sure what they're proposing.
    The vote was a Yes or No to the bill. Cant get any more clear cut than that mate. It was structured exactly like that to stop criticisms like yours. So what is your problem again?

    Re growing cannabis at home, - do you think the children will 'catch' the THC or something? Its a plant. only psychocative when decarboxylated which is usually smoked. your criticisms are ridiculous.
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by peat View Post
    The vote was a Yes or No to the bill. Cant get any more clear cut than that mate. It was structured exactly like that to stop criticisms like yours. So what is your problem again?

    Re growing cannabis at home, - do you think the children will 'catch' the THC or something? Its a plant. only psychocative when decarboxylated which is usually smoked. your criticisms are ridiculous.
    The bill was structured very poorly. Maximum limits on THC levels, little wording on the distribution chain, how will it be managed at the retail and commercial level (how will it be managed at school?). These issues have been widely debated by Mike Hosking on talk radio. The one that stuck out in my mind was the commercialisation of cannabis making it too easy for children and pre-teens to have access to it. If the parents are dumb and careless, and their children end up consuming cannabis without their care - then who's fault will it be and will the gov't pick up the tab?

    As for growing cannabis at home ; the issue is how responsible will parents be? During my primary school years back in Canada, i've experience friends whom their parents consumed cannabis. Their parents weren't so much the responsible kind and those friends ended up smoking cannabis in excess levels. Sure not every family ends up this way but i've seen enough over the years to know (and many will agree), these parents can't be so trusting & responsible. Of those in primary school I can't recall any that finished highschool. Again each situation to their own but the vote for the Cannabis Referendum is a vote on asking, 'how responsible will adults be around the young?'

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    The bill was structured very poorly. Maximum limits on THC levels, little wording on the distribution chain, how will it be managed at the retail and commercial level (how will it be managed at school?). These issues have been widely debated by Mike Hosking on talk radio. The one that stuck out in my mind was the commercialisation of cannabis making it too easy for children and pre-teens to have access to it. If the parents are dumb and careless, and their children end up consuming cannabis without their care - then who's fault will it be and will the gov't pick up the tab? [snip] the Cannabis Referendum is a vote on asking, 'how responsible will adults be around the young?'
    You're mistaken imho, based on your anecdotes.

    The ACT (not bill) is very well structured, to decriminalise marijuana. Shift it from a criminal matter to a health matter, then the 'treatments' across the whole supply chain can also shift from punitive to supportive.

    "Little wording on the distribution chain" - you realise it's already 'distributed' in vast quantities, but that's criminal as is buying and using.
    "How will it be managed at the retail and commercial level" - it already is sold at both levels, by criminals, bought by criminals buying and using.
    "how will it be managed at school" - it is not managed at school already, it is distributed, bought, used all by criminals, child criminals.
    "parents are dumb and careless" - they are already careless, it is illegal, there are growers, sellers, buyers and users, they are all criminals.

    The vote was not at all about "how responsible will adults be around the young". They are already irresponsible, criminals even. Like many parents, they probably have no idea whatsoever what their kids are doing. How is criminalising marijuana possibly helping resolve this timeless detachment of parents from their childrens behaviour.

    The vote was simply about whether personal marijuana growing and usage should be treated as a health matter rather than as a criminal matter.

    You have completely missed the point. Marijuana cultivation, distribution, sales, purchase, usage is endemic in New Zealand and has been for decades, but the LAW treats it as a criminal matter which advantages the criminals on the supply side and criminalises the users on the buy side, the current law is an ass.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    You're mistaken imho, based on your anecdotes.

    You have completely missed the point. Marijuana cultivation, distribution, sales, purchase, usage is endemic in New Zealand and has been for decades, but the LAW treats it as a criminal matter which advantages the criminals on the supply side and criminalises the users on the buy side, the current law is an ass.
    I'm not convinced making Cannabis legal in NZ will make the shift from keeping cannabis away from the criminals and instead, a move towards legal. This has NOT been the case in Canada and they've been 2+ years in the working. Their black market of cannabis supply has done nothing but grown larger as the legal cannabis is truncated in quality and in THC amount, and thus can not compete against the much higher quality (and faster delivery service) that the black market cannabis can offer.

    You would be a fool to believe the NZ black market will simply disappear. I'm also not convinced the quality of NZ cannabis can beat Canada's low cost, black market productions. No one grows it outdoors, the science behind it far more advanced than in the 70s ; the primary input of production is electricity. For which in Canada, electricity prices are less than 1/3rd of what NZ residents pay here. Even in legal cannabis production, there's no way NZ can be competitive to Canada. But don't stop there, just look at the listed public N. America cannabis companies with their share prices at around 80% off their highs, proves that the demand is not there as expected. They're cutting back on production while their legal product sits on shelf. In Canada, you're not wise to pay for the legal cannabis with Eftpos in risk of the transaction showing up when you cross to the US border. There's a lot of issues that the NZ Cannabis referendum makes no mention.

    And I reiterate - how is legal cannabis going to flush out the black market weed? All I see that will happen as a benefit is the courts and police will not have to deal with it. Oh and for more than a decade, in Canada the RCMP has always treated cannabis possession (in small quantities) as a nothing and don't bother arresting because it's a waste of time. The real effort should be focused on the environment to deter more cannabis demand in the wrong hands. A tough job if the drug is legal.
    Last edited by SBQ; 16-11-2020 at 07:16 PM. Reason: spelling mistakes

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    I'm not convinced making Cannabis legal in NZ will make the shift from keeping cannabis away from the criminals and instead, a move towards legal. This has NOT been the case in Canada and they've been 2+ years in the working. Their black market of cannabis supply has done nothing but grown larger as the legal cannabis is truncated in quality and in THC amount, and thus can not compete against the much higher quality (and faster delivery service) that the black market cannabis can offer.

    You would be a fool to believe the NZ black market will simply disappear. I'm also not convinced the quality of NZ cannabis can beat Canada's low cost, black market productions. No one grows it outdoors, the science behind it far more advanced than in the 70s ; the primary input of production is electricity. For which in Canada, electricity prices are less than 1/3rd of what NZ residents pay here. Even in legal cannabis production, there's no way NZ can be competitive to Canada. But don't stop there, just look at the listed public N. America cannabis companies with their share prices at around 80% off their highs, proves that the demand is not there as expected. They're cutting back on production while their legal product sits on shelf. In Canada, you're not wise to pay for the legal cannabis with Eftpos in risk of the transaction showing up when you cross to the US border. There's a lot of issues that the NZ Cannabis referendum makes no mention.

    And I reiterate - how is legal cannabis going to flush out the black market weed? All I see that will happen as a benefit is the courts and police will not have to deal with it. Oh and for more than a decade, in Canada the RCMP has always treated cannabis possession (in small quantities) as a nothing and don't bother arresting because it's a waste of time. The real effort should be focused on the environment to deter more cannabis demand in the wrong hands. A tough job if the drug is legal.
    As usual you dive down rabbit holes that other posters have not not even mentioned. The referendum is not about marginalising the black market, it is not about beating Canada, it is not about how best to grow the crop, etc ... it's not about anything you bring up here. It is just about whether marijuana should be treated under criminal law or as a health matter.

    As said, you completely miss the point. At the bottom of your rabbit hole, do you choose the red pill or the blue pill, Alice?

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    The vote was simply about whether personal marijuana growing and usage should be treated as a health matter rather than as a criminal matter.
    This was the Helen Clark line and why I was originally going to vote yes in the referendum. But then I thought what does making marijuana growing and usage a health matter actually mean? In the lead up to the 2017 election I attended an election meeting where Andrew Little was very outspoken on the poor state of mental health support in New Zealand. In 2020 and after three years of a labour lead government what had changed? There were a whole lot more massacre victims and extended family of those people to counsel. There was no significant increase in professional health support for these people. So what to do? Let's keep the resourcing the same and add a whole lot of cannabis sufferers into the picture too. That should work really well (not)!

    As far as my research went, I found a couple of 'weed anonymous' groups in Auckland (not funded by the government I might add) and that was it. For the rest of the country: no structure, no funding, no plan. At that point I realised the 'make cannabis a health issue' statement was just a slogan. I was being asked to vote for a non-existent health response, a crock, a fraud, which I just could not do. What does making marijuana use a health matter actually mean in an NZ context? Ten bonus points for anyone who can answer that one.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 16-11-2020 at 08:51 PM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

  8. #308
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    Then I go back to the previous quote you said:

    The vote was a Yes or No to the bill. Cant get any more clear cut than that mate. It was structured exactly like that to stop criticisms like yours. So what is your problem again?
    and you should be not surprised with the end result that the people of NZ have chosen against this 'overly simplistic' Yes or No to make cannabis legal (or how you put it, making it illegal or not or it's health issues). I ask, where are the guidelines? It seems so elementary (and for the voters that voted NO), that more information is needed before you expect people to vote YES.

    I do applaud NZ for putting such issues as a referendum as in Canada's case, cannabis legalisation was not put to the public. Instead, it was an easy issue for Justin Trudeau to do while more important issues sat aside.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    This was the Helen Clark line and why I was originally going to vote yes in the referendum. But then I thought what does making marijuana growing and usage a health matter actually mean? In the lead up to the 2017 election I attended an election meeting where Andrew Little was very outspoken on the poor state of mental health support in New Zealand. In 2020 and after three years of a labour lead government what had changed? There were a whole lot more massacre victims and extended family of those people to counsel. There was no significant increase in professional health support for these people. So what to do? Let's keep the resourcing the same and add a whole lot of cannabis sufferers into the picture too. That should work really well (not)!

    As far as my research went, I found a couple of 'weed anonymous' groups in Auckland (not funded by the government I might add) and that was it. For the rest of the country: no structure, no funding, no plan. At that point I realised the 'make cannabis a health issue' statement was just a slogan. I was being asked to vote for a non-existent health response, a crock, a fraud, which I just could not do. What does making marijuana use a health matter actually mean in an NZ context? Ten bonus points for anyone who can answer that one.

    SNOOPY

    Me too! I originally was going to vote yes and had long discussions about it with my wife (who is openly against it saying, "all drugs for recreational use are bad". I thought NZ would choose a way that fixed the mistakes Canada did in their legal free weed. But then like yourself, I dug and dug.... trying to find more information with not much results. Then add NZ's ability of handling mental welfare and awareness, "Why do we want to add more recreational drugs to the mix?"

    Perhaps put it another way, who are the ones that will benefit from legalising cannabis???

  10. #310
    ... Ferg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    For the rest of the country: no structure, no funding, no plan. At that point I realised the 'make cannabis a health issue' statement was just a slogan. I was being asked to vote for a non-existent health response, a crock, a fraud, which I just could not do. What does making marijuana use a health matter actually mean in an NZ context?
    And further to that point, what was preventing the Government from putting in place additional mental health resources without the proposed legislation? Nothing. It was not a case of getting both legalisation and extra mental health services or nothing at all.

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