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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    I may seem very "pro China", actually I can see some horrific things they have done in the world and call them out on it (the Cultural Revolution, the theft of IP from developed countries, the horrific court system not separate from politics, some of their trade policies in Africa, their continued claim of being a "developing country" when clearly they are not etc etc). Really, I just think I understand the history and motivations of the people there having lived and studied there for quite a few years. This gives me a much more balanced perspective, not one heavily influenced by western bogeymen and completely misunderstanding western media/opinions.
    Likewise.

    It gets tedious to read, hear and see the one-sided 'China is evil' pronouncements & commentary from Western media/opinions, many with no perspective whatsoever on how the colonial powers of Britain, France and Denmark (add on Japan) systematically undermined, promoted factions (divide & rule), looted the Asian & African countries and destroyed whole economies and communities. If you did not like what they did, you better be ready to swallow bullets and cannon balls. In the case of China, opium after the bullets and canon balls.

    I was in Laos and was rather very alarmed at the very high level of China commercial presence in Vientiane - high rises, shopping malls, factories etc. Anyway, I asked a few locals what they thought and their replies were rather telling. They were all very happy and relieved to have the investments from China pouring in as nobody else (especially the West) has showed any interest whatsoever in helping them to lift their economy and improve their living conditions since their war ended 30 years. Most of their youth have/had to move to Thailand and Vietnam to be exploited. Now they have a chance to work and stay in Laos.

    Similar thing happened when I was in Fiji recently. Plenty of China investments around and while there's disquiet from NZ & Oz governments about China influence, it is interesting that the locals are welcoming of the investments. As one businessman said to me over kava (evil stuff), Fiji has gone nowhere in the last 20 years except become servants to the tourists from Australia, US & NZ. Of course the West would like Fiji to remain like that - a tourist paradise for their winter holidays - but where's the future in that for their children?

    Biggest problem with the China investments is acknowledged in both Laos and Fiji as corruption. Now where do we start to debate corruption?
    Last edited by Balance; 03-09-2019 at 08:18 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    Likewise.

    It gets tedious to read, hear and see the one-sided 'China is evil' pronouncements & commentary from Western media/opinions, many with no perspective whatsoever on how the colonial powers of Britain, France and Denmark (add on Japan) systematically undermined, promoted factions (divide & rule), looted the Asian & African countries and destroyed whole economies and communities. If you did not like what they did, you better be ready to swallow bullets and cannon balls. In the case of China, opium after the bullets and canon balls.

    I was in Laos and was rather very alarmed at the very high level of China commercial presence in Vientiane - high rises, shopping malls, factories etc. Anyway, I asked a few locals what they thought and their replies were rather telling. They were all very happy and relieved to have the investments from China pouring in as nobody else (especially the West) has showed any interest whatsoever in helping them to lift their economy and improve their living conditions since their war ended 30 years. Most of their youth have/had to move to Thailand and Vietnam to be exploited. Now they have a chance to work and stay in Laos.

    Similar thing happened when I was in Fiji recently. Plenty of China investments around and while there's disquiet from NZ & Oz governments about China influence, it is interesting that the locals are welcoming of the investments. As one businessman said to me over kava (evil stuff), Fiji has gone nowhere in the last 20 years except become servants to the tourists from Australia, US & NZ. Of course the West would like Fiji to remain like that - a tourist paradise for their winter holidays - but where's the future in that for their children?

    Biggest problem with the China investments is acknowledged in both Laos and Fiji as corruption. Now where do we start to debate corruption?
    Although one must question with Laos - what is better? Malls/apartment/factories/debt from China or indiscriminant carpet bombing killing thousands, destruction of important cultural sights perpetrated by the West? Don't worry though, Kissenger - the man responsible for such mass destruction and near genocide, received a nobel peace prize in the same conflict. Shows you how much they are worth when mass murderers receive it and are heaped with praise... I suspect his guilt over this had a lot to do with him returning it. He should be done for crimes against humanity IMO.

    The issues with Fiji and China are exactly why "self determination" is sometimes problematic. We have been allowing Fiji and all the other islands the freedom of self determination for decades... has it worked? There is a real tension which is problematic for the locals - do we accept foreign power/money/influence and make our economy strong or go down the route of Western style "self determination" and remain a back water with a weak economy, feeding off the scraps of the rich West? It's a tough line to walk and hard decisions will have to be made every step of the way... one thing for sure though - they are very unlikely to be able to outmanoeuvre either side politically.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    ". . . you will realise they could have had near autonomy anyway". . . . .
    Sorry to truncate your reply so much, but that seems, to me at least, to be the main point.

    Would you settle for "near autonomy" for your country"?

    As for the seventeen point agreement, well the 1936 Soviet Union Constitution was also a wonderful, aspirational document.

    "Fine words butter no parsnips", as they say.
    Last edited by GTM 3442; 09-09-2019 at 02:12 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTM 3442 View Post
    Sorry to truncate your reply so much, but that seems, to me at least, to be the main point.

    Would you settle for "near autonomy" for your country"?

    As for the seventeen point agreement, well the 1936 Soviet Union Constitution was also a wonderful, aspirational document.

    "Fine words butter no parsnips", as they say.
    Near autonomy could describe in a nutshell the current and future status .
    I feel China has pushed too far which has ignited rebellious youth to get out on the streets and create fire and who knows what that fire will do.
    Excellent posts on this thread by Balance have helped my understanding(I never thought I would say this)
    Last edited by fish; 09-09-2019 at 06:00 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTM 3442 View Post
    Sorry to truncate your reply so much, but that seems, to me at least, to be the main point.

    Would you settle for "near autonomy" for your country"?

    As for the seventeen point agreement, well the 1936 Soviet Union Constitution was also a wonderful, aspirational document.

    "Fine words butter no parsnips", as they say.
    Absolutely. If a huge power which I had been a part of for 800 years and was on my doorstep, who was a very strong ally that would defend my interests, who I could have strong spiritual influence over, who would come and improve my peoples quality of life much more than I ever could... And who was threatening to invade me, which I knew I had no hope of repelling and my philosophy is one of strict non violence... Sure I will accept being an autonomous state. Particularly when my only interest is self enlightenment. Particularly if I recognised I am being used as a tool by people from the other side of the world for their own purposes.

    Do you think it's a very Buddhist thing to do to try to hold power (attachment), raise an army, plan and execute attacks?

  6. #26
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    Not directly about Hong Kong but this Bridges interview is a bit of a worry

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tFiaz4A9Ys
    “Just consider that maybe the probability of you being wrong is higher than you think.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    Absolutely. If a huge power which I had been a part of for 800 years and was on my doorstep, who was a very strong ally that would defend my interests, who I could have strong spiritual influence over, who would come and improve my peoples quality of life much more than I ever could... And who was threatening to invade me, which I knew I had no hope of repelling and my philosophy is one of strict non violence... Sure I will accept being an autonomous state. Particularly when my only interest is self enlightenment. Particularly if I recognised I am being used as a tool by people from the other side of the world for their own purposes.

    Do you think it's a very Buddhist thing to do to try to hold power (attachment), raise an army, plan and execute attacks?

    At risk of quibbling - autonomy and near-autonomy aren't quite the same thing.

    It certainly seems a very Finnish (indeed a very human) thing to do. Mind you, one suspects that the Finns didn't see themselves as having a strong spiritual influence over the Soviet Union.
    Last edited by GTM 3442; 11-09-2019 at 02:12 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTM 3442 View Post
    At risk of quibbling - autonomy and near-autonomy aren't quite the same thing.

    It certainly seems a very Finnish (indeed a very human) thing to do. Mind you, one suspects that the Finns didn't see themselves as having a strong spiritual influence over the Soviet Union.
    Of course it's not. And if you don't take in the context of the situation and apply Westernised idealism of freedom and liberty, it sounds horrific.

    But context is king. Given the context, is it smart to go against your religious beliefs, to ignore history, to ignore the minute likelihood of success, to remove a secure future for your people... all for what reasons? An ideal Westerners are whispering in your ear? All of which you (and many other Westerners) fail to recognise.

    Tibet simply goes down as yet another failed theocracy, of which there are not many left as they are usually poorly managed, just as Tibet was. Bhutan, Saudi Arabia (backed by oil and canny dictators) and Iran are pretty much the only ones left who can be considered successful. I doubt they will last long. (Sure, maybe the Vatican too, but it's hardly a state).

    It's strange that everyone would love for Tibet to be free. What would it look like if it was? Would you love the feudal society they had before full of corrupt and incompetent leaders as reported by Melvyn Goldstein? We can't wind back time and imagine what it would be like...

    But imagine what it would have been like if the Dalai Lama had welcomed China, let them run the country instead, signed up to the 17 point agreement with vigour and encouraged his people to practice both their traditional ways, but also learn the Chinese way (which is what happens all over China with many minorities). I suspect the repression wouldn't exist, the Dalai Lama would still be in charge (with Chinese "advisers" sure, but still the spiritual leader). Evidence? Every place I have visited in China with ancient culture/traditions speak their local dialect first, putonghua second. They all practice their local traditions, which are embraced by China for their diversity. And almost all of them have prospered - able to straddle the line between the cultures and utilise the benefits of both. They all get special attention by the government who really focus on their development. I know, this sounds like propaganda, but I encourage you to visit the Bai people, the Miao people or any of their other 57 or so minorities (most can be found in Yunnan) and see it first hand. Peaceful co-existence has resulted in shared development. In Tibet, active opposition has resulted in repression and violence. Which of the last two sentences sound more Buddhist?

    If you want a short unabashed history, try this: http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html
    Last edited by blobbles; 12-09-2019 at 10:28 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Not directly about Hong Kong but this Bridges interview is a bit of a worry

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tFiaz4A9Ys
    Absolutely agree. He sounds like a sycophantic, brainwashed turd. I guess he was in their country so he had to say nice things only? Hmmm... maybe that is smart, but he comes across of a smarmy little fawner. He could have been a bit more forceful and quite a bit more thoughtful.

    Kevin Rudd is a great one to talk about China. He speaks the language and understands them well. A thoughtful and intelligent man. Not the best leader, but a good diplomat for China. Soimon should learn from him. Would be good to hear him talk about Hong Kong.
    Last edited by blobbles; 12-09-2019 at 10:39 PM. Reason: tense!

  10. #30
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    Changing tack,wasn't aware of this. Also mirror publication in China. Very pro police and counter protestors with misinformation , now debunked.The soft takeover creep.

    Chinese NZ Herald under Chinese state 'control' - expertshttps://www.newsroom.co.nz › 2019/09/23 › chinese-nz-herald-under-super...

  11. #31
    Doggedly sniffing out more food Beagle's Avatar
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    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/02/hong...ional-day.html

    I very much doubt that yesterday's shooting will be the last. Young people throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails are begging for big trouble and will probably get it soon.
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/02/hong...ional-day.html

    I very much doubt that yesterday's shooting will be the last. Young people throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails are begging for big trouble and will probably get it soon.
    Completely agree, they have gone too far, particularly when they won in their original fight (the withdrawal of the extradition bill).

    They have to accept that they will be part of China in the future and that it isn't actually going to be too bad. It WILL be bad if they keep up such aggressive resistance though (see Tibet for reference).

  13. #33
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    Mostly young students at Tiananmen square too. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...re-takes-place
    Maybe the current students haven't heard about what happened back then ?
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

  14. #34
    Legend Balance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    Mostly young students at Tiananmen square too. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...re-takes-place
    Maybe the current students haven't heard about what happened back then ?
    They certainly have heard of Tiananmen and that's exactly why they are involved in the violent protests.

    Sure fire way of getting refugee status in one of the gullible Western countries, and escape the hell hole of middle class nightmare living in the most expensive & densely populated city in the world.
    Last edited by Balance; 11-10-2019 at 08:07 AM.

  15. #35
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    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-...em-2019-10-10/

    US abandoning allies & their families to their deaths & destruction after they have served the US purpose, the protesting Honkies urging the US & Trump to support them better wake up and soon.

  16. #36
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    https://play.stuff.co.nz/details/_6105136085001

    Various media reports describing this as the worst violence since the protests began.
    What do protestors expect when they start throwing bricks and shooting police with arrows and using petrol bombs ?
    Frankly I am quite surprised that the Chinese haven't used the military already.
    Tiananmen square Mk2 looking increasingly likely by the day...
    This looks like ending very badly.
    Last edited by Beagle; 18-11-2019 at 11:31 AM.
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-...em-2019-10-10/

    US abandoning allies & their families to their deaths & destruction after they have served the US purpose, the protesting Honkies urging the US & Trump to support them better wake up and soon.
    It is the UK which has more of an obligation to Hong Kong. After all it was the British withdrawal from HK under the Sino UK Joint Declaration Treaty that brought about the One Country Two Systems until 2047.

    However the UK is preoccupied with their own withdrawal from Europe so their other international commitments have mostly been neglected.

    Also, I think the UK only introduced reforms towards the end of their period of sovereignty over HK.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 18-11-2019 at 11:24 AM.

  18. #38
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    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/17/hong...rotesters.html
    Updated 44 minutes ago. You play with fire, you get burned.
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

  19. #39
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    I was watching live streaming with multiple channels on Periscope last night.
    these days its straight from the dragons mouth.

    https://www.periscope.tv/search?q=Hong+Kong

    It just seems so pointless to be poking the Panda , never ever going to back down.
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  20. #40
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    Not much is said about or seen of the ‘civil disobedience’ in Paris and other parts of France these days

    The Gilets jaunes need to get a new PR company
    “Just consider that maybe the probability of you being wrong is higher than you think.”

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