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Thread: Power shares

  1. #721
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    Using Green Energy to produce more useful less Green Energy?

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU20...September+2020

  2. #722
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    Onslow is crazy money looking for a home.
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  3. #723
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    Onslow is probably economic in that it will reduce the need for a lot of transmission ,$1-2B, AND further more it will reduce spot prices and hence Electricity prices substantially . The Industry will be against it and I hope it is run by the Govt not an existing generator.
    It is not silly.

  4. #724
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    It will probably be price neutral. While it will cap the high spot prices, it will also put a floor on extremely low prices. Below is a graph I did looking at the effect on prices on a fairly volatile price day back in February.

    Picture1.jpg

  5. #725
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    Taking out the high prices will really affect returns.

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by horus1 View Post
    Taking out the high prices will really affect returns.
    As Jantar's graph shows (and he stated), Lake Onslow will produce a ceiling but also a floor, making it more likely to be a neutral gain. The winner's will be wind farmers and geothermal operators.

    For wind farm's, it optimises all potential generation as there is always someone to buy the power. Drastically reducing the potential for curtailment and therefore maximising output. Meaning, if the winds blowing, the operators are generating and likely making money.

    For geothermal operators, they'll get better prices for all their extra power being generated at 3am that few people want. Generally during the night the HVDC is reversed to supply the south island because of geothermal over supplying the north island's power at that time of the day, slashing the spot price so a lot of other generators shut down. Rather than killing the spot price, Onslow could set the minimum price. Guaranteeing margins for gentailers.

    It would also allow the base generation to be increased without the need for immediate demand. Of course there will be limitations but definitely doesn't directly mean returns will be affected in the way you'd initially think.

    Onslow could limit the peak demand pricing but peaker plants are more expensive to run so furthermore, I think we will find that the effect is actually lesser than you'd think.

  7. #727
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    you forget the multiplier that the market clears for the highest price to all.By reducing the highs you really affect the total return of generators.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by horus1 View Post
    you forget the multiplier that the market clears for the highest price to all.By reducing the highs you really affect the total return of generators.
    Setting a higher floor also raises the price received by all generators. The closer price limits than we see now may also encourage generators to offer closer to SRMC rather than throwing in a huge offer at $0.01 and waiting for some other market participant to set a marginal price.

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    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/technolog...box=1600228943

    Microsoft to invest $100M in a cloud system in Auckland. Does anyone have some idea's on power demand from such a project? Will it be significant to consider?

  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by gains View Post
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/technolog...box=1600228943

    Microsoft to invest $100M in a cloud system in Auckland. Does anyone have some idea's on power demand from such a project? Will it be significant to consider?
    not significant energy usage on a national scale.
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  11. #731
    Junior Member teabag's Avatar
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    Does anyone know rough figures for the efficiency of the Onslow scheme - In the sense of the ratio between running the surplus water directly through a generator, compared to pumping it to Onslow and then out again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teabag View Post
    Does anyone know rough figures for the efficiency of the Onslow scheme - In the sense of the ratio between running the surplus water directly through a generator, compared to pumping it to Onslow and then out again?
    Yes, I can answer that. The Roxburgh generators are currently 90% efficient, but that will increase shortly due to new runners being installed in 4 of the 8 generators. New average efficiency is likely to be 91%. K14 may be able to give better numbers on that if he sees this post.


    Depending on whether Onslow uses variable speed turbines, reversible turbines, or fixed pump turbines, Onslow will be around 88% pumping and 91% generating for a combined efficiency of 80% in the best case or around 75% if the cheapest option is taken. This decision would be part of the $70 M investigation.

    Of course I am pushing for the most efficient variable speed, reversible turbines.

  13. #733
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    thx Jantar, that is a lot better than I would have initially guessed

  14. #734
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    AGL expands 'virtual power plant' beyond South Australia

    https://www.afr.com/companies/energy...0200921-p55xth

    maybe jantar , horus1 etc could comment on how or if this type of virtual operation could potentially impact on power companies here ?
    bull
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  15. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by gains View Post
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/technolog...box=1600228943

    Microsoft to invest $100M in a cloud system in Auckland. Does anyone have some idea's on power demand from such a project? Will it be significant to consider?
    Agree with Peat's comment.

    Would just add modern server farms use highly efficient PSU's (85%+) and strong power management techniques to reduce load. Cooling will draw significant current, but over all power consumption will be a tiny blip on NZ's electricy radar.

    Economically there's not a lot in a data centre for NZ as very few jobs are created outside of the initial construction, but data sovereignty might be one big advantage, as long as the US courts don't continue their attempts to chip away at that.

  16. #736
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    I think that this makes sense BUT in NZ the generators are trying to stop new entry and with Tiwai leaving will not do anything to increase distributed generation but bleed the NZ domestic consumer.So it will not happen here.

  17. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by bull.... View Post
    AGL expands 'virtual power plant' beyond South Australia


    https://www.afr.com/companies/energy...0200921-p55xth

    maybe jantar , horus1 etc could comment on how or if this type of virtual operation could potentially impact on power companies here ?
    I am not sure about how AGL's scheme will work. I do know that in Queensland my SIL received a huge subsidy to install solar panels on her roof, and she receives 40c per unit that she feeds back into the grid. That scheme is now halted for new customers, but she is grandfathered and so still receives that income until such times as her installation is paid for.

    The economics for solar do not really stack up for NZ as a whole, but for some areas it can be worthwhile. Anywhere north of 32 deg latitude should certainly be on solar, between 32 and 45 deg check with the available sunshine hours and do your sums, it could be beneficial. South of 45 deg, don't even consider it.

    Add in the battery, and the economics do improve a bit, but be aware that the battery does degrade over time, just like an EV car battery does.

    Having a very large number of installations in an area could work like a virtual power station, but spread over the whole country, would require a massive dismantling of our electricity market.

  18. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jantar View Post
    I am not sure about how AGL's scheme will work. I do know that in Queensland my SIL received a huge subsidy to install solar panels on her roof, and she receives 40c per unit that she feeds back into the grid. That scheme is now halted for new customers, but she is grandfathered and so still receives that income until such times as her installation is paid for.

    The economics for solar do not really stack up for NZ as a whole, but for some areas it can be worthwhile. Anywhere north of 32 deg latitude should certainly be on solar, between 32 and 45 deg check with the available sunshine hours and do your sums, it could be beneficial. South of 45 deg, don't even consider it.

    Add in the battery, and the economics do improve a bit, but be aware that the battery does degrade over time, just like an EV car battery does.

    Having a very large number of installations in an area could work like a virtual power station, but spread over the whole country, would require a massive dismantling of our electricity market.
    thanks jantar economics of solar not very good in nz without govt subsidy makes sense so virtual power plant like you say probably not as feasible at the moment. but interesting development in aus.
    guess the economics of getting customers to connect solar and then a power company doing a virtual setup would be far cheaper than paying for a onslow hydro maybe ? or does the peaking capacity of these virtual setups not be capable of doing the same job?
    bull
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