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  1. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by bull.... View Post
    AGL expands 'virtual power plant' beyond South Australia


    https://www.afr.com/companies/energy...0200921-p55xth

    maybe jantar , horus1 etc could comment on how or if this type of virtual operation could potentially impact on power companies here ?
    I am not sure about how AGL's scheme will work. I do know that in Queensland my SIL received a huge subsidy to install solar panels on her roof, and she receives 40c per unit that she feeds back into the grid. That scheme is now halted for new customers, but she is grandfathered and so still receives that income until such times as her installation is paid for.

    The economics for solar do not really stack up for NZ as a whole, but for some areas it can be worthwhile. Anywhere north of 32 deg latitude should certainly be on solar, between 32 and 45 deg check with the available sunshine hours and do your sums, it could be beneficial. South of 45 deg, don't even consider it.

    Add in the battery, and the economics do improve a bit, but be aware that the battery does degrade over time, just like an EV car battery does.

    Having a very large number of installations in an area could work like a virtual power station, but spread over the whole country, would require a massive dismantling of our electricity market.

  2. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jantar View Post
    I am not sure about how AGL's scheme will work. I do know that in Queensland my SIL received a huge subsidy to install solar panels on her roof, and she receives 40c per unit that she feeds back into the grid. That scheme is now halted for new customers, but she is grandfathered and so still receives that income until such times as her installation is paid for.

    The economics for solar do not really stack up for NZ as a whole, but for some areas it can be worthwhile. Anywhere north of 32 deg latitude should certainly be on solar, between 32 and 45 deg check with the available sunshine hours and do your sums, it could be beneficial. South of 45 deg, don't even consider it.

    Add in the battery, and the economics do improve a bit, but be aware that the battery does degrade over time, just like an EV car battery does.

    Having a very large number of installations in an area could work like a virtual power station, but spread over the whole country, would require a massive dismantling of our electricity market.
    thanks jantar economics of solar not very good in nz without govt subsidy makes sense so virtual power plant like you say probably not as feasible at the moment. but interesting development in aus.
    guess the economics of getting customers to connect solar and then a power company doing a virtual setup would be far cheaper than paying for a onslow hydro maybe ? or does the peaking capacity of these virtual setups not be capable of doing the same job?

    for peoples interest agl in australia is doing a virtual power station

    A virtual power plant, or VPP for short, is sometimes used to refer to a network of connected solar batteries that can be managed as one.

    The idea is that individual batteries can be coordinated, and in doing so become a pop-up power plant. So small amounts of energy stored in individual batteries can become a large amount of controllable energy. This can help avoid power outages and contribute to making energy more affordable in the future.
    Last edited by bull....; 23-09-2020 at 10:32 AM.
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  3. #733
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    I know no details re the AGL battery link but my first thought is if I had a battery why would I release control of it to the power co. Just when I need it - I wouldnt have it, they would commandeer it to boost their supply (to provide to other people). If my battery was fully charged then I would already have security.
    (I probably have this all wrong)
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  4. #734
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    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo.../#1823b9667f74

    I guess this might trickle down to home storage batteries as well and make off-grid more viable.

  5. #735
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    ...........................opps wrong thread. While I'm here, GNE's yield looks fantastic at around 7.8% gross, although I might have mentioned that already
    Last edited by Beagle; 23-09-2020 at 03:40 PM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:2: “Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
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  6. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by gains View Post
    As Jantar's graph shows (and he stated), Lake Onslow will produce a ceiling but also a floor, making it more likely to be a neutral gain. The winner's will be wind farmers and geothermal operators.

    For wind farm's, it optimises all potential generation as there is always someone to buy the power. Drastically reducing the potential for curtailment and therefore maximising output. Meaning, if the winds blowing, the operators are generating and likely making money.

    For geothermal operators, they'll get better prices for all their extra power being generated at 3am that few people want. Generally during the night the HVDC is reversed to supply the south island because of geothermal over supplying the north island's power at that time of the day, slashing the spot price so a lot of other generators shut down. Rather than killing the spot price, Onslow could set the minimum price. Guaranteeing margins for gentailers.

    It would also allow the base generation to be increased without the need for immediate demand. Of course there will be limitations but definitely doesn't directly mean returns will be affected in the way you'd initially think.

    Onslow could limit the peak demand pricing but peaker plants are more expensive to run so furthermore, I think we will find that the effect is actually lesser than you'd think.
    Or it could be a white elephant
    The government’s pursuit of a $4 billion-plus pumped hydro scheme in Central Otago is a “disturbing blast from the past” and the idea that it will deliver lower power prices is something from “dreamland,” Mercury NZ shareholders heard today.

    Director Patrick Strange, a former chief executive of national grid operator Transpower, said the government “completely lacks” any discipline as an investor.

    Australia’s energy sector shows what a “shambles” government intervention can create and he said it was disturbing to see the Onslow scheme being promoted.

    New Zealand is a challenging geography to supply with energy and it would benefit from additional winter storage, he said.

    But the government’s idea that $5 billion to $10 billion could be spent at Onslow without raising power prices “is dreamland.”

    Even spending $100 million to investigate the option “to my mind is mind-boggling,” he said in a brief comment as part of his re-election to the board.

  7. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Or it could be a white elephant
    The government’s pursuit of a $4 billion-plus pumped hydro scheme in Central Otago is a “disturbing blast from the past” and the idea that it will deliver lower power prices is something from “dreamland,” Mercury NZ shareholders heard today.

    Director Patrick Strange, a former chief executive of national grid operator Transpower, said the government “completely lacks” any discipline as an investor......
    Patrick Strange is probably basing his claims on Transpower's 2018 report. In it they just looked at Onslow as dry year reserve without factoring in that it can also be a buffer for intermittent generation. Under that scenario it would never pay for itself, and the Capex cost alone would add around $250M per annum to be spread among all electricity users, or an increase of around $15 per month on the average power bill.

    However using it to buffer additional wind generation allows it to be treated just like any other power station and enables more wind and solar generation onto grid in a ratio of 2:1. I.e 2 MW of wind for every MW at Onslow.

    I also do not know where he gets his $5B to $10B figures from. Majeed costed it at $3B but allowed $3.5B to cover contingencies. The Government took Majeed's $3.5B and increased it to $4B to cover contingencies. Now Strange has strangely taken that number and more than doubled it.
    Last edited by Jantar; 24-09-2020 at 01:39 PM.

  8. #738
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    I would not believe everything Mercury say. Dr Strange built a 400KV line to AK which has never been used.

  9. #739
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    Yes it sounded very biased .
    I like the idea of pumped hydro storage.
    However by the time it i could be in operation can we be sure it will still be needed?
    My installation date for solar is 2 weeks away .
    I am holding off installing battery storage as batteries are forecast to be half the cost and a longer life in 3 years.
    Bi-directional charging is still not sorted but I can see it happening long before Onslow could function .
    Sufficient solar in the future could mitigate against a dry year .
    To me it would make sense to explore other options for pumped hydro on a smaller scale and preferably mid-North Island to reduce risk of transmission failure across cook strait .
    Last edited by fish; 24-09-2020 at 03:48 PM.

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    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...n-negotiations

    Labour policy promising to keep Tiwai around for a few extra years, at a cost to Transpower..

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