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Thread: Power shares

  1. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by k14 View Post
    Approximately 17m more than current if the lake profile was uniform, in reality you could probably do it with 10m if you could submerge Taupo CBD and Turangi. Then you need to get the water from somewhere. In other words, not possible...

    You can't repurpose any of the existing hydro systems to achieve what Onslow would. You also can't pump water back up a river. You need a source of constantly available water (either lake or river with constant flow) and you need somewhere separate to pump it to. I agree it is not totally logical from a location point of view, but it ticks nearly every other box from geography (large basin with steep sides) and also in the middle of nowhere so lower NIMBY component. Still some significant environmental issues that would need to be considered though. Totally agree there should be more money spent on energy efficiency initiatives, that is supposedly the best bang for buck. But longer term Onslow is a reasonable proposition if the pricing works out at the current numbers being bandied about.
    I think it would be possible, not by raising the level and flooding Taupo, but by lowering the level capability of the existing outflow and channel.
    I suspect this could be done, without impacting on Huka falls, or the first dam on the Waikato.
    This would have the major advantage of having supply close to demand, and not need an expensive transmission rejig, and vulnerability to outage and line loss (resistance) of cable and lines all the way from the South Island.
    Be Much cheaper than Onslow!
    Something for the engineers, cost accountants, politicians to seriously consider before committing major capital to Onslow...
    Last edited by Getty; 01-08-2020 at 10:03 AM.

  2. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastbike View Post
    Back on the topic of smart meters, the open energy monitor project has some interesting kit and software, that would enable you to do real time usage monitoring along with reading the spot market API to get real time pricing.
    Here is the website for open energy monitor, all based in Snowdonia in North Wales

    https://openenergymonitor.org/

    How did you find out about these guys fastbike? Do you use any of their products?

    SNOOPY
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SylvesterCat View Post
    Thanks. That was interesting. Any thoughts on the future of NWF or TLT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SylvesterCat View Post
    Your articles are always interesting.
    Thank you for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    Thanks. That was interesting. Any thoughts on the future of NWF or TLT?
    Windpower from the article is costed at 90-105 mwh in 2016.
    I believe NWF having already paid for the infrastructure is making good profit at $90 mwh with their current contract.
    So it depends on what the value a gentailer will pay in the future for their generation.
    Clearly windpower knits well with large scale hydrogeneration so I see a good future with long-term increased NI demand .

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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Windpower from the article is costed at 90-105 mwh in 2016.
    I believe NWF having already paid for the infrastructure is making good profit at $90 mwh with their current contract.
    So it depends on what the value a gentailer will pay in the future for their generation.
    Clearly windpower knits well with large scale hydrogeneration so I see a good future with long-term increased NI demand .
    Even with proposed energy efficiency is electricity demand is going to keep growing so I imagine that any well run electricity supplier is going to do well. Genesis needs to sort out the Huntly powerstation but I gather they have plans for that which they will bring forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    Even with proposed energy efficiency is electricity demand is going to keep growing so I imagine that any well run electricity supplier is going to do well. Genesis needs to sort out the Huntly powerstation but I gather they have plans for that which they will bring forward
    My guess is that after the election the future possibilities and timescale will become clearer.
    Personally I would like to see more Geothermal and Wind generation in the NI which would reduce the massive transmission costs to bring power from the very south to the north.
    Coal needs to be banned and substituted with gas for when nature fails to provide power.

  9. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Getty View Post
    I think it would be possible, not by raising the level and flooding Taupo, but by lowering the level capability of the existing outflow and channel.
    I suspect this could be done, without impacting on Huka falls, or the first dam on the Waikato.
    This would have the major advantage of having supply close to demand, and not need an expensive transmission rejig, and vulnerability to outage and line loss (resistance) of cable and lines all the way from the South Island.
    Be Much cheaper than Onslow!
    Something for the engineers, cost accountants, politicians to seriously consider before committing major capital to Onslow...
    On reflection, I know there would be no impact on Huka.
    However, thinking deeper, I wonder why the power generating companies dont utilise Pelton wheels, and/or Archimedes screws inside the penstocks, so the water flow is better used on its gravity rush to the bottom generators.
    There would be some impedance, but I suspect a nett gain.
    This means more power is generated from the same water, which means less has to flow through the dam = more storage.
    Also, some power from the Pelt/Arcs could be used to then pump some water back up into the dam, thus giving a degree of perpetual motion.
    On the Waikato river dams, if they did a once only shutdown of the Aratiatia Rapids diversion, for as long as it takes to fill Aratiatia dam to the brim, then replicated this process to all other dams on the river, there would be no need to interfere with Lake Taupo at all, and river levels would restore to as present.
    This combination of Pelt/Arcs and pumped hydro can can be used in other places like Lake Waikaremoana dams, using existing infrastructure.
    Why not?
    Is it because of Max Bradford's power reforms, and we have a fragmented industry?
    Did you say they have been spilling water?
    Should this be an election issue?
    Last edited by Getty; 02-08-2020 at 12:47 PM.

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    Now you're thinking Getty

  11. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Getty View Post
    On reflection, I know there would be no impact on Huka.
    However, thinking deeper, I wonder why the power generating companies dont utilise Pelton wheels, and/or Archimedes screws inside the penstocks, so the water flow is better used on its gravity rush to the bottom generators.
    There would be some impedance, but I suspect a nett gain....
    The energy you take from the water with your wheels and screws means less energy for the turbines so overall no gain.

    I believe your other ideas may not be practible either.

    Now building a pumped hydro using the craters of the major north island volcanoes would be a different matter all together.
    om mani peme hum

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    Hows this?
    No power lines?
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/gre...mission-cables
    "A Kiwi technology start-up hopes its long-range wireless power transmission system will herald a brighter, cleaner future.

    Emrod has developed a system which converts electricity into electro-magnetic waves that can be sent wirelessly to receivers to be converted back into electricity for use in homes and businesses."

  13. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiora View Post
    Hows this?
    No power lines?
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/gre...mission-cables
    "A Kiwi technology start-up hopes its long-range wireless power transmission system will herald a brighter, cleaner future.

    Emrod has developed a system which converts electricity into electro-magnetic waves that can be sent wirelessly to receivers to be converted back into electricity for use in homes and businesses."
    I can see the anti-5G loons having a field day with this one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWH View Post
    I can see the anti-5G loons having a field day with this one!
    Hey I dont consider I am a loon, but I seem to have a small problem with this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiora View Post
    Wouldn't it be cheaper to pump water back up the mighty Waikato & deliver power closer to where its needed?
    Where would you suggest it be pumped from and where store this water?

    Edit: OK, now I have read the other replies and answers since reading your post.

    For Taupo to be used as pumped storage it would be possible by lowering the bed of the lake by around 12 m. I would love to watch the resource consent hearing for that one.

    Next is the supply of water would have to be the ocean, so that would mean a tunnel from the Mercer/Port Waikato area all the way to Taupo, and because of that distance it would need to be 3 times the diameter of the proposed Onslow tunnel. Cost would be around $120 B just for the tunnel.

    The environmental issues involved would be enormous, and not technically feasible to overcome.

    If Taupo was to be used for dry year back up, then that would mean the loss of generation from the current Waikato stations for most of the time. These stations cannot be retrofitted with reversible (pump) type turbines so it is not a matter of simply pumping water back up the line.
    Last edited by Jantar; 03-08-2020 at 09:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jantar View Post
    Where would you suggest it be pumped from and where store this water?
    Good and essential question.
    Is there a good location?
    Clearly the higher above sea level the more power can be stored .
    North Island is the best place to store power but I guess rainfall patterns and space may make the SI look better but leaves the transmission problems.
    Would a number of smaller schemes in the North Island reduce transmission costs-eg we could have more hydro in Northland down to Tongariro if state subsidises and resource consents overcome.
    Storage of winter rains in Northland would be great for the environment-less flooding in winter and better river flows in summer.

    It loos to me as if the $30 million will be spent mainly on looking at Lake Onslow whereas I feel we may miss other options .

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    Electricity 'beamed' to homes could do away with wire transmission cables

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/gre...mission-cables

    A great methodology to introduce vast inefficiencies, but still could find some niche market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    My guess is that after the election the future possibilities and timescale will become clearer.
    Personally I would like to see more Geothermal and Wind generation in the NI which would reduce the massive transmission costs to bring power from the very south to the north.
    Coal needs to be banned and substituted with gas for when nature fails to provide power.
    I read that contact and meridian were going to tip in $5 million each to help fast track the southern transmission lines but at a later date that was put on hold....why I,m not sure......as for huntly on gas sounds good but security of supply will be an issue with no more drilling allowed and also huntly has water temperature issues with regard to discharge back into the waikato river.?..maybe back to meremere and the rubbish boiler to generate electricity

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy415 View Post
    I read that contact and meridian were going to tip in $5 million each to help fast track the southern transmission lines but at a later date that was put on hold....why I,m not sure......as for huntly on gas sounds good but security of supply will be an issue with no more drilling allowed and also huntly has water temperature issues with regard to discharge back into the waikato river.?..maybe back to meremere and the rubbish boiler to generate electricity
    Drilling is still allowed (but no new permits-in fact more oil and gas have recently been discovered offshore Taranaki ) and do not forget existing onland pipelines/infrastructure could be used as current gas is depleted .
    If any goverment really wanted to change Huntly to Gas it could be done .
    The new gas baseload generation is highly efficient and should discharge water at lower temperatures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Good and essential question.
    Is there a good location?
    Clearly the higher above sea level the more power can be stored .
    North Island is the best place to store power but I guess rainfall patterns and space may make the SI look better but leaves the transmission problems......
    There is only one suitable North Island location, and even that would only be intra day storage, not dry year. That is Lake Otoaira above the Tokaanu Power Station. The permitted usable range is only around 30 cm and that gives 12 hours storage. If it could be permitted to go to 1 m it would then allow for intra day pumped storage.

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