Power shares

[Jantar]

…. So it looks like your answer is that it isn't possible to calculate a monthly electricity netback figure from the other figures given in the monthly report. However I don't buy the argument that these 'few other items' are not known at the time of writing the report. …..

I didn't say they aren't known at the time of writing the report, but they are not known on a daily basis like all the other data.

[Snoopy]

Your retail price of 27.4 c/kWh is made up from roughly 1/3 (or 10c) for the energy, 1/3 (or 9 c) for the local network charges, and 1/3 (or 8 c) for Transpower charges, ancillary products, like spinning reserve and frequency keeping, and EA security charges. This is all lumped into a single bill for you.

I think (but dont really know for sure) you will find a modern system quite smart about how it uses the solar energy supply from your PV's on the roof and your Tesla battery. That said it may not be able to dynamically react to fluctuating prices on the grid.

I doubt you'll ever find it worthwhile storing power unless you're in the game of making it as well.

It is all coming back to me now from two years ago when my last power contract expired and I last thought about this issue in detail. Jantar has rightly pointed out the effect of line charges, both national and local, on my power bill. It is common to think of line charges as 'fixed' i.e. something you must pay to get the electron path to your house, no matter how many electrons you intend to draw over the wires. This myth is being reinforced by line charges being fixed as part of any 'big five' power bill. But this isn't really true.

The local line network has to be sized for peak loads. So if as a householder you could draw down all your power at night into a battery, for example, and use that power via your battery at peak local network times, then this benefits the lines companies. The benefit is that all the substations and switching gear and main trunk electricity conduits can be designed to be consummately lighter. The more households that use batteries taking their power 'off peak', the lesser the need to upgrade the local network in the future and the less stress put on the local network today.

Not Contact but Vector using batteries to lower need to upgrade network
https://www.vector.co.nz/innovation/...-at-glen-innes

In the story referenced by Kiora, lines company Vector has recognised this issue and are building their own larger scale battery to optimize the use of their existing network. But there is really no difference between Vector doing this and a whole lot of city residents doing this privately. It looks like it is a particularly helpful thing to do when in-fill housing takes foot. This is a good way to delay upgrading the whole local network to handle new peaks. If Vector are willing to do this with their own money, why can they not offer discounts to households that do the same? By my way of thinking it would actually make sense for local lines companies to offer power at night at very low cost (a few cents a unit) to encourage households to install batteries. Transpower would also benefit from this as their lines would not need upgrading to feed the peaks. Perhaps it is too difficult to bring the gentailer, local lines company and Transpower on board together to co-ordinate such a price signalling strategy? But to me it makes sense.

I had kind of assumed, probably naively, that one or more of these retail start ups that offer 'spot power', like Flick, might have convinced the local power companies to offer 'spot rates' on their network charges as well. Horus might know if such a deal was ever put on the table?

SNOOPY

[Zaphod]

The local line network has to be sized for peak loads. So if as a householder you could draw down all your power at night into a battery, for example, and use that power via your battery at peak local network times, then this benefits the lines companies.
SNOOPY

Slightly OT but relevant to the calculation: Our commercial development required the installation of a new 500KVa transformer and upgrades to the lines within a 400m radius of the local suburb which based on sizing for peak load as you mentioned. Obviously the upgrade benefitted more than just our site, especially since we paid 90% of the cost of the lines, transformer and labour for installation, with a paltry 10% contribution from the lines company. So the point is, when the lines company isn't even paying for the infrastructure but is charging the same as if it were, this would no doubt boost profits considerably.

[Cyclical]

If Vector are willing to do this with their own money, why can they not offer discounts to households that do the same? By my way of thinking it would actually make sense for local lines companies to offer power at night at very low cost (a few cents a unit) to encourage households to install batteries.

Back in the day when my father used to work for the local power board, he sold night store heaters for similar reasons....what ever happened to those? I guess the same applies to off peak hot water heating. Is EV recharging eligible for off peak rates? It used to mean two meters, but maybe not anymore with the smart ones?

[Jantar]

Back in the day when my father used to work for the local power board, he sold night store heaters for similar reasons....what ever happened to those? I guess the same applies to off peak hot water heating. Is EV recharging eligible for off peak rates? It used to mean two meters, but maybe not anymore with the smart ones?

Meridian have a night rate for EV charging. I think Mercury may have as well, but not sure that theirs is in all areas. Energy Online do have separate day/night rates as do Contact in some areas.

[Snoopy]

Back in the day when my father used to work for the local power board, he sold night store heaters for similar reasons....what ever happened to those?

Four or five years ago I asked around and found someone bringing in nightstore heaters from England. The thing that killed them as a mainstream item was the rise of the heat pump. A heat pump with a performance coefficient of 3 will bang out 3kw of heat for every 1kw of electricity that powers it. For a nightstore to match that in terms of heat output per dollar, the nightstore power input price would have to drop to 1/3 of that of the daytime price. The night discount price offered by the gentailers today is something like 2/3 of the day rate price. Effectively that makes a nightstore heater cost twice as much in power input terms to deliver the heat output you want, compared to a heat pump.

Still, it isn't quite 'case closed' for nightstore heaters. The capital cost of a nightstore heater is much less, a few hundred dollars not a few thousand. And I am surprised at the relatively short service life of some heat pumps. Some can be done after five years. Also at very low temperatures, like below zero, some of that efficiency advantage of heat pumps disappears. And, of course, night rate heaters address the issue of shifting power peak demand in a way that heat pumps don't.

I guess the same applies to off peak hot water heating. Is EV recharging eligible for off peak rates? It used to mean two meters, but maybe not anymore with the smart ones?

I had two meters that were replaced by two 'smart' meters that could be read remotely. My hot water is heated at 'night rates'. And if I had an EV I could arrange to get that charged at night rates as well.

SNOOPY

[peat]

I see Craigs did a piece about Power shares

For the time poor - Do nothing at present - its all good medium term, buy dips.

For those wanting the longer summary
Should investors take any drastic action?We don't believe so. The nature of the announcement was a surprise, and shareprices across the sector were heavily impacted last week. Despite this, we see littleneed for any significant change in strategy. When the smelter closes in a little over ayear, there will be declines in earnings for some companies, and this could seedividends reduced accordingly, for a period. However, we would not expect thedeclines to be overly dramatic, with share prices already reflecting much of this.The future of Tiwai Point has clouded the electricity sector outlook for some yearsnow. With clarity over its future, the industry can move forward. The decks are nowcleared and there are no further major 'overhangs' for investors to deal with.Longer-term, we shouldn't forget that the companies in this sector have very highquality assets, and strong cash flows that allow for attractive, sustainable dividendsto be paid. Demand for electricity is resilient during recessions, and given its essentialnature the sector enjoys high levels of pricing power. As the industry (as well asfinancial markets) digests this news and contemplates how the next few years willlook, the electricity companies could exhibit more volatility than one would usuallyexpect from such a defensive sector.This could provide buying opportunities, although it may be a slightly bumpier ridethan usual. While an adjustment period will be required, our positive long-term viewon the sector is unchanged

(poor formatting my fault)

[fish]

Meridian have a night rate for EV charging. I think Mercury may have as well, but not sure that theirs is in all areas. Energy Online do have separate day/night rates as do Contact in some areas.

Mercury are doing a number of interesting projects using battery storage and encouraging solar.
They do have cheaper night rates for EV owners.
If on the vector network they will buy back excess solar at 12 cents.
They facilitate the installation of solar .
Information on vehicle to home-using an EV which has the facility to store and supply energy to the house is hard to find but I understand is being developed and may be in use now ,This coupled with home solar seems the obvious way to go in Northland with its abundant solar energy.
If anyone knows about this please let us know

[JeffW]

Is EV recharging eligible for off peak rates? It used to mean two meters, but maybe not anymore with the smart ones?

I'm with Mercury, and their off-peak rates for electric cars involves just 1 meter, and a 20% discount of all power (not just car charging) between 9pm & 7am. For us, we use most of our power between those hours anyway, it results in about nil or even slightly negative cost of car charging. Happy days!

[kiwico]

I had two meters that were replaced by two 'smart' meters that could be read remotely. My hot water is heated at 'night rates'. And if I had an EV I could arrange to get that charged at night rates as well.SNOOPY

We're one further step up on that. We had three meters, now as a single smart meter, with the system split as:
* one for day
* another for night with a timer on the main hot water cylinder to make sure it runs from 11pm to 7am
* a third for hot water (with ripple control) for the small hot water cylinder in the kitchen.

I occasionally have to 'boost' the hot water cylinder using day rates but otherwise works very well with keeping the power bills down.