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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    But
    "However, the Bluetooth tracking and alert solution requires notifications be sent by a local health authority - in our case the Ministry of Health - and the MoH says it's still in a testing phase."
    We shall wait and see...I would happily be part of their testing phase but not at a high cost.

    In just a 2 day period during which I did not actively use the app (it runs in the background) it was the biggest consumer of battery power. It comprised 50% of the battery consumption during a period in which I actively used the camera, emailed and web browsed.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 16-09-2020 at 12:05 PM.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    In just a 2 day period during which I did not actively use the app (it runs in the background) it was the biggest consumer of battery power. It comprised 50% of the battery consumption during a period in which I actively used the camera, emailed and web browsed.
    That has been a complaint elsewhere.
    One of the reasons people have to be careful about touting the usefulness of these sort of solutions.

  3. #1003
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    Another reason why I think the dedicated covid-card makes much more sense.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
    Another reason why I think the dedicated covid-card makes much more sense.
    Yip - may head that way.
    I can see a lot of people deciding not to wear it as they don't want the Govt tracking their movements.
    But that's no worse than those who refuse to download the current app.
    On balance, assuming it works as stated on the box, a covid card has more pluses than minuses I think.

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    y.

    But that's no worse than those who refuse to download the current app.
    .
    Or just not have the bluetooth on. Or leave the phone in the car etc etc.

  6. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    Yip - may head that way.
    I can see a lot of people deciding not to wear it as they don't want the Govt tracking their movements.
    But that's no worse than those who refuse to download the current app.
    On balance, assuming it works as stated on the box, a covid card has more pluses than minuses I think.
    Any level of uptake in using a card or an app is better than not having the option.

    No, coronavirus apps don’t need 60% adoption to be effective
    https://www.technologyreview.com/202...cent-download/

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Any level of uptake in using a card or an app is better than not having the option.
    Not if you spend $100mil for 5million of the things and people don't use them.
    Or they don't do what they say on the box.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    Not if you spend $100mil for 5million of the things and people don't use them.
    Or they don't do what they say on the box.
    Well of course if an app/card is defective it is a waste of money.
    If uptake is low there is still effectiveness. But yep you are right everything comes with diminishing returns for your money.

  9. #1009
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    Another escape. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12365751
    I've said it before. The only way to be sure is give them a one use only electronic unlock key so they are locked in their room, an exercycle plenty of food, broadband and sky T.V. access. They also have access to mental health helpline support. If you don't like those conditions, pretty simple really, don't bother coming back.

    Better still, go with the Okahea airbase thing and upgrade perimeter fences to full razor wire standards.
    People need to get a grip on reality. Asking people to behave and stay confined for just 14 days is not a life sentence for goodness sake and an incredibly small price to pay to come back to a (relatively speaking), very safe country.
    Last edited by Beagle; 17-09-2020 at 11:34 AM.
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  10. #1010
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    The South Auckland primary school pupil with Covid visited the school while waiting for the Covid test result. Is it that some from this Auckland cluster acted recklessly or were they not clearly informed of the appropriate steps to take?
    Last edited by Bjauck; 17-09-2020 at 04:12 PM.

  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Is it that some from this Auckland cluster acted recklessly or were they not clearly informed of the appropriate steps to take?
    How more informed do people have to be. It is a well known fact that you stay put while waiting for test results. It's the old she'll be right attitude.
    chippy52

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    One of the remarks made by a church member were telling: God will look after us. I wonder if that's what the parents assumed when sending their child to school? We'll probably never know.

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by chippy52 View Post
    How more informed do people have to be. It is a well known fact that you stay put while waiting for test results. It's the old she'll be right attitude.
    But that isn't the current advice https://www.healthinfo.org.nz/index....19-testing.htm and https://www.healthinfo.org.nz/index....19-testing.htm.

    If you are considered low-risk then you don't need to self-isolate after testing according to that detail

  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmsnz View Post
    But that isn't the current advice https://www.healthinfo.org.nz/index....19-testing.htm and https://www.healthinfo.org.nz/index....19-testing.htm.

    If you are considered low-risk then you don't need to self-isolate after testing according to that detail
    I hope people are clearly told if they are high risk or not...e,g if they are a close contact of a positive case that they are high risk.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 18-09-2020 at 10:33 PM.

  15. #1015
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    Outstanding idea coming from Indonesia:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ef=recommended

    Get the anti maskers to help dig graves for the Covid deaths. Might get them thinking ... and relieves the grave diggers.
    ----
    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (Niels Bohr)

  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Outstanding idea coming from Indonesia:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ef=recommended

    Get the anti maskers to help dig graves for the Covid deaths. Might get them thinking ... and relieves the grave diggers.
    Maybe you should buy a ticket for Ashley Bloomfield and send him up to Indonesia for a bit of spadework Blackpeter. I seem to recall he was ambivalent about masks during the first lock down. Yet somehow without masks we managed to eliminate the virus. Of course 'the science' is evolving as science always does and yesterday's heresy can become today's common knowledge. The problem with 'mask science' is, the more you look at it you would have to conclude the evidence is pretty weak. And I mean that both ways. There is little solid evidence that masks do in fact slow the infection rate of the Covid-19 disease, and there is little clear evidence they don't slow the infection rate of Covid-19. The problem is that experiments to prove the point are actually unethical. You can't put healthy people into a Covid-19 droplet filled atmosphere, both with and without masks, and see what happens. The 'experiments' have to be more subtle and are of necessity historical treatises on a gathering that happened, with a story to explain what disease event happened constructed 'after the event'. And the 'believers', on whatever side of the fence they sit, simply construct an explanation to fit their biased already entrenched narrative of the situation.

    When we have a pandemic there is a temptation, which is completely understandable, to 'fast track' the science, which has the unfortunate consequence of making it less rigorous. In such situations it is often wise to apply the 'precautionary principle' and adopt changes in behaviour early, which may turn out to be life saving, to avoid losing lives while the science is proved beyond doubt. I would put mask use currently in this category. If it does no harm, and there is a chance it will stop the spread of infection, then we should all do it. But does mask use do no harm? Probably not if it is done right, but do the public do it right? I have lost count of the number of times I have seen 'disposable' masks stuffed into someones pocket or bag as soon as they get off the bus. If that mask was infectious the accumulated virus particulates would be concentrated in peoples pockets and be ripe for cross infecting their hands and increase the chance of virus transfer going forwards. Of course one way to avoid this is to discard your virus infested mask straight on the street. I have seen that done too! There are no design standards for the masks that the public are encouraged to use and there are certainly some that redirect the nasal spray rather than stopping it. Then there is the natural reaction some people just can't stop to reach up and make slight adjustments to how a mask sits on one's face. So I think there is an, admittedly weak, case to be made that masks are harmful and will increase virus spread. This would suggest to me that fining someone for not wearing a mask would be 'getting ahead of the science' and would be pandering to the opinions of certain outspoken public figures in a way that is not justified.

    It is extremely important in experiments to be able to control for other possible explanations of the outcomes you are observing. In the United States Boston choir super-spreader event, as an example, the authors noted that there was touching of common objects and the sharing of food both of which could have been alternative vectors for virus spread. Yet the study was written up in a way that this was definitive proof that the virus spread by suspended droplets in the atmosphere.

    I did notice that the much feared north shore gym sessions where a Covid-19 positive care worker was supposedly pumping vast quantities of virus into the atmosphere of their fellow gym class workers has so far lead to zero new infections (touch wood). This would suggest to me that:

    1/ If suspended droplets are a real cause of virus spread, then the dilutionary effect of social distancing between gym class members and having good ventilation in the gym building are enough to offset the chance of such a transfer happening in practice. OR

    2/ It could be the care worker was not infectious at the time they attended the gym session.

    Choose your own per-conceived position, then select the explanation 1/ or 2/ that fits your biased story. That seems to be how 'pandemic science' works.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 22-09-2020 at 11:02 AM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Maybe you should buy a ticket for Ashley Bloomfield and send him up to Indonesia for a bit of spadework Blackpeter. I seem to recall he was ambivalent about masks during the first lock down. Yet somehow without masks we managed to eliminate the virus. Of course 'the science' is evolving as science always does and yesterday's heresy can become today's common knowledge. The problem with 'mask science' is, the more you look at it you would have to conclude the evidence is pretty weak. And I mean that both ways. There is little solid evidence that masks do in fact slow the infection rate of the Covid-19 disease, and there is little clear evidence they don't slow the infection rate of Covid-19. The problem is that experiments to prove the point are actually unethical. You can't put healthy people into a Covid-19 droplet filled atmosphere, both with and without masks, and see what happens. The 'experiments' have to be more subtle and are of necessity historical treatises on a gathering that happened, with a story to explain what disease event happened constructed 'after the event'. And the 'believers', on whatever side of the fence they sit, simply construct an explanation to fit their biased already entrenched narrative of the situation.

    When we have a pandemic there is a temptation, which is completely understandable, to 'fast track' the science, which has the unfortunate consequence of making it less rigorous. In such situations it is often wise to apply the 'precautionary principle' and adopt changes in behaviour early, which may turn out to be life saving, to avoid losing lives while the science is proved beyond doubt. I would put mask use currently in this category. If it does no harm, and there is a chance it will stop the spread of infection, then we should all do it. But does mask use do no harm? Probably not if it is done right, but do the public do it right? I have lost count of the number of times I have seen 'disposable' masks stuffed into someones pocket or bag as soon as they get off the bus. If that mask was infectious the accumulated virus particulates would be concentrated in peoples pockets and be ripe for cross infecting their hands and increase the chance of virus transfer going forwards. Of course one way to avoid this is to discard your virus infested mask straight on the street. I have seen that done too! There are no design standards for the masks that the public are encouraged to use and there are certainly some that redirect the nasal spray rather than stopping it. Then there is the natural reaction some people just can't stop to reach up and make slight adjustments to how a mask sits on one's face. So I think there is an, admittedly weak, case to be made that masks are harmful and will increase virus spread. This would suggest to me that fining someone for not wearing a mask would be 'getting ahead of the science' and would be pandering to the opinions of certain outspoken public figures in a way that is not justified.

    It is extremely important in experiments to be able to control for other possible explanations of the outcomes you are observing. In the United States Boston choir super-spreader event, as an example, the authors noted that there was touching of common objects and the sharing of food both of which could have been alternative vectors for virus spread. Yet the study was written up in a way that this was definitive proof that the virus spread by suspended droplets in the atmosphere.

    I did notice that the much feared north shore gym sessions where a Covid-19 positive care worker was supposedly pumping vast quantities of virus into the atmosphere of their fellow gym class workers has so far lead to zero new infections (touch wood). This would suggest to me that:

    1/ If suspended droplets are a real cause of virus spread, then the dilutionary effect of social distancing between gym class members and having good ventilation in the gym building are enough to offset the chance of such a transfer happening in practice. OR

    2/ It could be the care worker was not infectious at the time they attended the gym session.

    Choose your own per-conceived position, then select the explanation 1/ or 2/ that fits your biased story. That seems to be how 'pandemic science' works.

    SNOOPY
    Et tu, Snoopy?

    I do see the discussion around masks similar to the discussion around safety belts in cars in the 1970 'íes. We are both old enough to remember the braindead idiots fighting for their "right" not to wear a safety belt. By the way - it was the same crowd who claimed in the 1990 'ies that the world will end when NZ (as last country in the world) removes the poisonous lead from petrol. Dumb people don't seem to die out. Well, we learned by now that society suffers significantly less road deaths by wearing safety belts, and the lead pollution in our cities did significantly drop. Nobody harmed, but much good done.

    The case for masks is still stronger than the case for safety belts (which in a very small number of cases actually can harm the wearer) - a correctly used masks hardly ever can cause harm - but sure, people are not perfect so problems might happen. Still - if a contaminated mask results in an infection (which is possible), than I am wondering why the person wearing it would not have been infected without wearing this mask - just a bit earlier?

    I think this is a good example for paralysis by analysis ... too much pondering and questioning of a sensible and at worst harmless habit will damage our society. We do know that mask wearing does not inflict harm on the society - just look at most east Asian countries where people with a cold tend to do that already for decades. Their societies are the better for that.

    Spreading the virus however does harm our society - and so do the smartars*s and antisocial elements who flout sensible rules for the sake of opposing.
    ----
    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (Niels Bohr)

  18. #1018
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    Still more to learn about Covid-19 with many preconceived ideas being challenged including transmission on a plane.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/healt...ses-discovered

  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by workingdad View Post
    Still more to learn about Covid-19 with many preconceived ideas being challenged including transmission on a plane.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/healt...ses-discovered
    "Three passengers, including a child, who were on a chartered flight (from Christchurch to Auckland on September 11) with a man who tested positive for coronavirus more than a week after leaving managed isolation have contracted the virus."

    I think it is known that there are some instances that the incubation cycle of Covid-19 is longer than 14 days. But this is a rare event. Are you suggesting that current quarantine procedures in NZ are not strict enough?

    "A girl aged between 1- and 4-years-old, a woman in her 20s and a man in his 30s, who are all part of the same family, were confirmed as having Covid-19 on Wednesday."

    If it was an Air New Zealand charter everyone would have been all masked up. So you are saying that masking was not effective in controlling the disease spread?

    SNOOPY
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    I do see the discussion around masks similar to the discussion around safety belts in cars in the 1970 'íes. We are both old enough to remember the braindead idiots fighting for their "right" not to wear a safety belt. By the way - it was the same crowd who claimed in the 1990 'ies that the world will end when NZ (as last country in the world) removes the poisonous lead from petrol. Dumb people don't seem to die out. Well, we learned by now that society suffers significantly less road deaths by wearing safety belts, and the lead pollution in our cities did significantly drop. Nobody harmed, but much good done.
    I see the seat belt comparison as quite a different thing. You can quite ethically put a belted crash test dummy in a car and simulate a car crash. You can them measure the intrusion of the crumpled car body into the passenger space and measure the g-forces on the dummy and look at the whole crash dynamics by filming the test.

    By contrast you can measure the concentration of Covid-19 virus in the atmosphere. But you don't know what proportion of the virus you can detect is viable. You don't know what atmospheric concentration of atmospheric viable virus is needed to infect a person. You can't 'see' what is happening dynamically as the virus is invisible to the naked eye. And it is unethical to put a person into a high concentration of atmospheric virus to find out these things.

    The case for masks is still stronger than the case for safety belts (which in a very small number of cases actually can harm the wearer) - a correctly used masks hardly ever can cause harm - but sure, people are not perfect so problems might happen.
    There are more things that can go wrong putting on a mask than putting on a safety belt.

    Still - if a contaminated mask results in an infection (which is possible), than I am wondering why the person wearing it would not have been infected without wearing this mask - just a bit earlier?
    The main issue I see with the mishandling of masks is that a mask having collected and concentrated the output of the wearers nose and mouth is then the perfect vector for transferring those contaminants to the wearers hands in a nice concentrated 'virus brew'. And from there...

    I think this is a good example for paralysis by analysis ... too much pondering and questioning of a sensible and at worst harmless habit will damage our society. We do know that mask wearing does not inflict harm on the society - just look at most east Asian countries where people with a cold tend to do that already for decades. Their societies are the better for that.
    I remember an interview with the British epidemiologist Doctor Chris Smith who on a visit to Japan, asked why all the Japanese on the trains and buses in Tokyo were wearing masks. It was explained to him that when you had cold/flu like symptoms that wearing a mask was a way to prevent the transfer of whatever bug you had to other people. His reply was:

    "So why are so many people wearing masks then?"

    Spreading the virus however does harm our society - and so do the smartars*s and antisocial elements who flout sensible rules for the sake of opposing.

    Et tu, Snoopy?
    You will be pleased to hear that I have bought a mask, one with adjustable straps and a wire in the nose bridge for best face hugging fit. I also bought a new supply of disposable woollen filters so I can minimise the pollution from my mask wearing.

    I expect that my mask will filter out certain particulates when I decide to take my bicycle out on high density traffic routes. I don't necessarily expect much protection from Covid-19. But I will take such protection if it happens.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 23-09-2020 at 06:59 PM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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