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  1. #1121
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    A second vaccine, 20m available by the end of the year, I’m sure vaccine alternatives will start popping up all over the world. NZ just became a less desirable haven, wonder if this may solve the housing crisis, and of course the border issues.

  2. #1122
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    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...rantine-breach

    Yet another quarantine breach or failure - this time in South Australia, a state which has had no community spread since April.

    It is unfathomable that governments are still not taking really tough & restrictive quarantine measures & putting in place quarantine regimes to ensure water tight containment from incoming travellers & returnees. Billions of dollars of economic damage & horrendous imposition of personal freedoms for the total population from the lockdowns but governments are too timid to impose what must be military camp type quarantine centres?
    Last edited by Balance; 17-11-2020 at 07:25 AM.

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    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe...-tests-suggest

    Meanwhile, the history of how the pandemic could have started may just have to be rewritten and re-examined as evidence of the virus has been found in Italy from September 2019.

    To properly control the virus and how it spread, it is critical to trace its origins and subsequent spread & obviously, how different countries responded to contain its spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    We have seen over and over again mistakes and maybe I seem cynical however my opinion is based on over 40 years of working in the field-and I am shortly off to work and it is likely Covid will be one of the topics I discuss with my colleagues .

    She went to work with a sore throat/cold.
    No she didn't Fish. The sore throat had gone. At least that is according to the corrected story as related by her employer's lawyer.

    -------------

    In a statement issued by her employer's lawyer, the woman said: "On the evening of the 9th [November] | had a sore throat, but I did not think much of it. I contacted my GP on the 10th over the phone as I thought I may have a cold."

    "I did not think I met the symptoms of coronavirus but my GP recommended that I get a test just to be sure. On the 11th my sore throat had gone and I did not feel any discomfort, so I went to work."

    "I wore a mask just to be safe. My employer has instructed us to wear a mask whenever possible. It is not unusual for us to wear masks at work, so my manager, co-workers, and customers thought nothing of it. I did not think there was any chance that I had coronavirus.

    "I did not tell my boss or manager of the above and did not request leave at any time. | did not think it was a big deal."

    "On the morning of the 12th I learned I tested positive and was very shocked and upset."

    ------------

    I do understand your cynicisim about reported facts. It is very rare, for instance, that I have had a cold with symptoms of a sore throat. Then woken up the next day and all symptoms of that cold were gone. But this was Covid-19, not a cold. I understand that many Covid-19 carriers are asymptomatic. So isn't it possible that a fit young healthy woman did have a sore throat one day and make a complete recovery the next?

    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Do not always believe what Politicians and Lawyers tell you and instead listen to people in the field (just my opinion of course). Remember the discussion we had about aerosol transmission and the worker who they still tell us likely caught it from a lift button. I do not believe it as there was another more likely fault in the quarantine system that allowed transmission.
    Surely the lift button case is tangential to the 'Defence Cluster Contact D' case for two reasons.

    1/ 'Defence Cluster Contact D' was not in quarantine when all this happened.
    2/ The issue is about how the test procedure was handled. Exactly how 'Defence Cluster Contact D' got Covid-19 in the first place has nothing to do with the testing procedures.

    It is the testing procedure and 'Defence Cluster Contact D''s responses that are under scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    I do believe my cynicism is more appropriate than overly .

    As to the truth of what she was told by her GP we do not know because we are not being told.
    As to if the student suspected Covid it is highly likely otherwise why did she phone her GP? and why did the GP tell her to have a test?
    I know a lot of GPs who deal with Covid and they tell me they always tell a patient with symptoms having a test must self-isolate until the test result is known-it is on the guidelines and it is a shame that Hipkins has not clarified this.
    .

    'Defence Cluster Contact D'' may have phoned her GP to get some sore throat medicine on prescription. She said when she got the positive test result she was 'shocked'. That doesn't sound like someone who believed they had Covid-19. But you are telling us she would not have been shocked because she suspected covid-19 all along?
    It seems like you have rewritten the narrative: changed what the patient said and felt to suit your version of events. That doesn't mean you are necessarily wrong. Both the young woman and the employer could be lying. But without any real suggestion of an alternative narrative, shouldn't you take what was said by the employer and the young woman at face value?

    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Criteria for testing has changed many times for many reasons-one of these being alert levels
    How has the criteria for testing changed with alert levels? I am genuinely interested to find out more about this.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 17-11-2020 at 12:06 PM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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    It seems that the Swedish experiment might be changing tack.
    More restrictions as cases soar.
    ""It is a clear and sharp signal to every person in our country as to what applies in the future. Don't go to the gym, don't go to the library, don't have dinner out, don't have parties - cancel!" he said during a press conference." - Sweden's PM
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world...trictions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    No she didn't Fish. The sore throat had gone. At least that is according to the corrected story as related by her employer's lawyer.

    -------------

    In a statement issued by her employer's lawyer, the woman said: "On the evening of the 9th [November] | had a sore throat, but I did not think much of it. I contacted my GP on the 10th over the phone as I thought I may have a cold."

    "I did not think I met the symptoms of coronavirus but my GP recommended that I get a test just to be sure. On the 11th my sore throat had gone and I did not feel any discomfort, so I went to work."

    "I wore a mask just to be safe. My employer has instructed us to wear a mask whenever possible. It is not unusual for us to wear masks at work, so my manager, co-workers, and customers thought nothing of it. I did not think there was any chance that I had coronavirus.

    "I did not tell my boss or manager of the above and did not request leave at any time. | did not think it was a big deal."

    "On the morning of the 12th I learned I tested positive and was very shocked and upset."

    ------------

    I do understand your cynicisim about reported facts. It is very rare, for instance, that I have had a cold with symptoms of a sore throat. Then woken up the next day and all symptoms of that cold were gone. But this was Covid-19, not a cold. I understand that many Covid-19 carriers are asymptomatic. So isn't it possible that a fit young healthy woman did have a sore throat one day and make a complete recovery the next?



    Surely the lift button case is tangential to the 'Defence Cluster Contact D' case for two reasons.

    1/ 'Defence Cluster Contact D' was not in quarantine when all this happened.
    2/ The issue is about how the test procedure was handled. Exactly how 'Defence Cluster Contact D' got Covid-19 in the first place has nothing to do with the testing procedures.

    It is the testing procedure and 'Defence Cluster Contact D''s responses that are under scrutiny.


    .

    'Defence Cluster Contact D'' may have phoned her GP to get some sore throat medicine on prescription. She said when she got the positive test result she was 'shocked'. That doesn't sound like someone who believed they had Covid-19. But you are telling us she would not have been shocked because she suspected covid-19 all along?
    It seems like you have rewritten the narrative: changed what the patient said and felt to suit your version of events. That doesn't mean you are necessarily wrong. Both the young woman and the employer could be lying. But without any real suggestion of an alternative narrative, shouldn't you take what was said by the employer and the young woman at face value?



    How has the criteria for testing changed with alert levels? I am genuinely interested to find out more about this.

    SNOOPY
    I just cannot take what the lawyer states at face value.
    The narrative has been carefully crafted to defend the employer.
    It does not ring true .
    It appears to me that the truth is not going to be disclosed .
    To prevent further ambiguity over requirements there is a simple answer which we use for most medical procedures-a signed consent form -for covid testing-it should include responsibility to self-isolate where appropriate .
    I discussed this with my colleagues today-the belief is that our local testing station gives those who have symptoms an instruction sheet stating they must self-isolate until a negative result is received.
    I do not know if this is a national practice but clearly it should be-and it would be good if a journalist asked Hipkins this question.

  7. #1127
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    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...ce-trail-italy

    So Italy could actually be the source of the Covid 19 virus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...ce-trail-italy

    So Italy could actually be the source of the Covid 19 virus.
    That's what I was wondering - rather than the China Virus it is the Italian Virus.
    Trump won't like that!

  9. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    That's what I was wondering - rather than the China Virus it is the Italian Virus.
    Trump won't like that!
    No worries, facts never changed Trumps dirty little phantasies ... he lives in an alternate universe where only his lies are factual.
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    Compulsory mask wearing on airplanes looks to be a highly successful move.

    This past week I was in a few airports around the country and noted:
    1. The vast majority did not wear masks until just passing through the door into the airplane, despite lining up to board in very close proximity
    2. Constant itching and fiddling UNDER the mask during the flight
    3. Regular removal of masks to eat and drink, touching the face regularly or to undertake picking of the nose (unsure whether any snacking occurred)
    4. Wearing a mask apparently means you do not need to sneeze or cough into your elbow, or to maintain any social distancing at all

    One women boarded the plane eating an ice-cream (dripping onto the floor) and stated to the FA "don't worry I have mask" pointing to her pocket. The FA's response was "Well it needs to be on your face to work, and will be there before you walk down the back to your seat"
    Last edited by Zaphod; 21-11-2020 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
    Compulsory mask wearing on airplanes looks to be a highly successful move.

    This past week I was in a few airports around the country and noted:
    1. The vast majority did not wear masks until just passing through the door into the airplane, despite lining up to board in very close proximity
    2. Constant itching and fiddling UNDER the mask during the flight
    3. Regular removal of masks to eat and drink, touching the face regularly or to undertake picking of the nose (unsure whether any snacking occurred)
    4. Wearing a mask apparently means you do not need to sneeze or cough into your elbow, or to maintain any social distancing at all

    One women boarded the plane eating an ice-cream (dripping onto the floor) and stated to the FA "don't worry I have mask" pointing to her pocket. The FA's response was "Well it needs to be on your face to work, and will be there before you walk down the back to your seat"
    As you have observed Zaphod, enforcing the 'wearing of masks' and enforcing 'the correct protocol of mask wearing' are two different things. If masks are not used or stored or washed correctly, the result can be that mask use increases the risk of transmission of Covid-19. Then there is the 'perceived public merit' of the mask wearer, causing mask wearers to be less vigilant about hand washing and social distancing. It could be a case of the cure being worse than the disease. I wouldn't be surprised if mask use was eventually banned in New Zealand. I don't think the Covid-19 infection rate would go up if they were.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 21-11-2020 at 04:12 PM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    As you have observed Zaphod, enforcing the 'wearing of masks' and enforcing 'the correct protocol of mask wearing' are two different things. If masks are not used or stored or washed correctly, the result can be that mask use increases the risk of transmission of Covid-19. Then there is the 'perceived public merit' of the mask wearer, causing mask wearers to be less vigilant about hand washing and social distancing. It could be a case of the cure being worse than the disease. I wouldn't be surprised if mask use was eventually banned in New Zealand. I don't think the Covid-19 infection rate would go up if they were.

    SNOOPY
    I have never seen any evidence that using a mask increases the risk of transmission-only circumstantial evidence to the contrary .
    Mask use will always be part of PPE .

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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    I have never seen any evidence that using a mask increases the risk of transmission-only circumstantial evidence to the contrary .
    The problem fish is that almost all the evidence is circumstantial on virus transmission between humans. And that is because doing a 'controlled experiment' of sticking humans in an atmosphere of high virus concentration or alternatively getting them to touch surfaces with significant virus concentration and get them to transfer that virus to their nose and mouth are both unethical. Even those with animals are flawed. Take the one with Covid-19 affected ferrets.. They are in a confined environment with a high concentration of atmospheric Covid-19. But they also rub against each other and groom themselves. The same trial can be framed as 'proof' that the virus is transmitted by coming by contact with a virus infected surface, and also proof that the virus is transmitted through the atmosphere - depending on the bias of the researcher,

    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Mask use will always be part of PPE .
    Yes and those wearers of PPE will be instructed how to put it on, how to behave with it on, how often it should be changed and how to properly dispose of the gear afterwards. None of that applies to the general public There are lots than can go wrong with improper use and disposal of gloves. There is even more that can go wrong with masks because their use involves moving contaminated hands up to the nose and mouth area.

    SNOOPY
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    The problem fish is that almost all the evidence is circumstantial on virus transmission between humans. And that is because doing a 'controlled experiment' of sticking humans in an atmosphere of high virus concentration or alternatively getting them to touch surfaces with significant virus concentration and get them to transfer that virus to their nose and mouth are both unethical. Even those with animals are flawed. Take the one with Covid-19 affected ferrets.. They are in a confined environment with a high concentration of atmospheric Covid-19. But they also rub against each other and groom themselves. The same trial can be framed as 'proof' that the virus is transmitted by coming by contact with a virus infected surface, and also proof that the virus is transmitted through the atmosphere - depending on the bias of the researcher,



    Yes and those wearers of PPE will be instructed how to put it on, how to behave with it on, how often it should be changed and how to properly dispose of the gear afterwards. None of that applies to the general public There are lots than can go wrong with improper use and disposal of gloves. There is even more that can go wrong with masks because their use involves moving contaminated hands up to the nose and mouth area.

    SNOOPY
    Agreed snoopy
    So you must have circumstantial evidence or examples of it being spread through incorrect mask use ?
    As you know personally I think mask use is important in high risk situations-something Trump did not have the intellectual power to understand but the Chinese,koreans etc did and at last our cabinet has grasped .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post

    Yes and those wearers of PPE will be instructed how to put it on, how to behave with it on, how often it should be changed and how to properly dispose of the gear afterwards. None of that applies to the general public There are lots than can go wrong with improper use and disposal of gloves. There is even more that can go wrong with masks because their use involves moving contaminated hands up to the nose and mouth area.

    SNOOPY
    So what you are saying is that NZers have become such a nation of morons that they cannot be taught or trained or educated to use masks properly?

    Seems like the social media in Taiwan is correct then - that NZers have to be locked up (locked down) like sheep in pens because they are incapable of basic hygiene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Yes and those wearers of PPE will be instructed how to put it on, how to behave with it on, how often it should be changed and how to properly dispose of the gear afterwards. None of that applies to the general public There are lots than can go wrong with improper use and disposal of gloves. There is even more that can go wrong with masks because their use involves moving contaminated hands up to the nose and mouth area.

    SNOOPY
    I think you missed that the main reason for wearing facemasks in public is to protect the general public, not to protect yourself.

    Even a not properly fitted facemask is likely to reduce the stream of droplets coming from a virus carrier, which will reduce the R0 rate.

    Only if you want to protect yourself as well against the virus coming from others is it important to adhere to proper mask fitting instructions and mask hygiene.
    ----
    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (Niels Bohr)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    So what you are saying is that NZers have become such a nation of morons that they cannot be taught or trained or educated to use masks properly?
    There have been instructions from on high on when to wear a mask. But what about mask use protocol? There have been no guidelines on how to put on a mask, like ensuring your hands are property washed before you do it. There has been nothing said about what to do when you take your mask off. My mask came with a special 'mask pouch'. They means when I put it in there, the mask doesn't contaminate anything else in my carry bag. If I had just taken my mask off and stuffed it in my pocket however.....

    Nothing has been said about how long you should wear a mask before you throw it away (disposable) or change the filter. Nothing has been said about mask quality. Wrapping a silk scarf over your nose and mouth is just as good as wearing a hospital quality PPE N95 mask apparently.

    I am not saying all NZers are morons. But surely if you give people a new tool to use (i.e. a mask) , you have to give out some instructions as to how to use it safely? You can't train someone if you don't supply a training course, or any 'how to do' guidelines at all.

    Zaphod has given his observations on mask use protocol at airports and on aeroplanes. These correspond to my own observations on public buses. I think there is a real danger that mask wearing will do for stopping Covid-19 spread, what ABS brakes have done for safety in cars. Namely people take more risks driving because they know they have better brakes if they get into trouble - net result, no reduction in road crashes. Likewise people put on a mask and consider they are doing their bit. But mask use is not a substitute for hand washing and spatial distancing. Remember we eliminated Covid-19 in New Zealand without the use of masks.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 22-11-2020 at 09:12 AM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    So you must have circumstantial evidence or examples of it being spread through incorrect mask use ?
    As you know Covid-19 is not rampant in the population, so currently mask indiscretions go unpunished (by that I mean even people who get it wrong are unlikely to be infected). But imagine for a moment that Covid-19 was about in the population. For circumstantial evidence, I refer yo to Zaphod's recent aeroplane experiences (post 1130). And I reprise below my 'September experience' on a bus in Christchurch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    I donned my mask and braved the bus today in Christchurch, and there were plenty of miscreants. One older guy spent the entire bus trip with his mask lowered abound his neck while he was blowing into a handkerchief. Another woman put masks on her two children but then proceeded to breathe all over the driver while diving into her purse for the bus card, and only put on her mask after that Another young guy got on the bus well masked, but then proceeded to take it all off while he put in this ear plugs and linked it up to his I-Phone before putting on his mask again. Another young woman lowered her mask to have a drink of water. A dad had his daughter about 8 masked up, but did not appear to have a mask for himself. The whole bus trip was a master class in what not to do.

    I was the only one wearing gloves and I noticed almost everyone grabbed the vertical hold rail just to the right of the rear door as they went out. So plenty of opportunity for Covid-19 to spread, Oh, and social distancing seemed to have been forgotten when getting off the bus as well.

    Was there anything good to report? One your girl travelling on her own probably no more that 10 or 11, possibly on her way to ballet class, had a mask and also a little bottle of hand sanitiser I saw here use. The only sensible passenger on the bus, so kudos to her parents for giving her the right gear. Even I wasn't 100% sensible as I found an itch on my nose that I had to raise my hand to to deal with by rubbing the outside of the mask. I left the bus wondering how many times the disposable masks used by most passengers would be used before they were thrown away. From what I observed the mask wearing behaviors of the Christchurch public looked like a 'healthwash' to me. An exercise in going through the motions but not using the gear properly and forgetting about the hand sanitation and social distancing measures that dealt to Covid-19 in the first lock down. The one piece of comfort that I drew from my bus trip was that that were so many ways a virus could be spread, Covid-19 almost certainly is not in Christchurch right now!
    I wouldn't want to have to introduce Covid-19 into the NZ population to 'prove my point'. But I hope you can now see the virus transmission pathways that incorrect (or even correct mask use, accompanied by a false sense of security) could bring.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 22-11-2020 at 09:28 AM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    I think you missed that the main reason for wearing facemasks in public is to protect the general public, not to protect yourself.

    Even a not properly fitted facemask is likely to reduce the stream of droplets coming from a virus carrier, which will reduce the R0 rate.

    Only if you want to protect yourself as well against the virus coming from others is it important to adhere to proper mask fitting instructions and mask hygiene.
    I take your point BP, and at the same time your post has suggested to me an interesting thought experiment.

    --------

    Suppose a person was to travel to Auckland and wished to use public transport to get around the city. A public bus pulls up, scattered with a whole lot of passengers not wearing masks, in amongst others who are wearing masks. As the person at the bus stop, do you get on that bus? Explain why or why not, as you justify your decision.

    ---------

    SNOOPY

    PS. This question as posed doesn't have a right or wrong answer (although other circumstances may determine that) and is open to anyone to answer. Not just BP!
    Last edited by Snoopy; 22-11-2020 at 09:49 AM.
    Industry shorthand sees BNZ employees still called 'bankers' but ANZ employees now called 'anchors'. Westpac has opted out of banking industry shorthand...

  20. #1140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    There have been instructions from on high on when to wear a mask. But what about mask use protocol? There have been no guidelines on how to put on a mask, like ensuring your hands are property washed before you do it. There has been nothing said about what to do when you take your mask off. My mask came with a special 'mask pouch'. They means when I put it in there, the mask doesn't contaminate anything else in my carry bag. If I had just taken my mask off and stuffed it in my pocket however.....

    Nothing has been said about how long you should wear a mask before you throw it away (disposable) or change the filter. Nothing has been said about mask quality. Wrapping a silk scarf over your nose and mouth is just as good as wearing a hospital quality PPE N95 mask apparently.

    I am not saying all NZers are morons. But surely if you give people a new tool to use (i.e. a mask) , you have to give out some instructions as to how to use it safely? You can't train someone if you don't supply a training course, or any 'how to do' guidelines at all.

    ...
    SNOOPY
    I see where you are coming from - and sure, you are absolutely right - proper education on hygiene (not just Covid-19 related) and mask wearing would clearly do a lot of good in this country.

    Nothing wrong with reminding our politicians and health officials from time to time.

    It is just important not to throw out the baby with the bathwater ... and some of your previous posts could read like not wearing masks is better than wearing them and this would be water on the mills of the anti maskers (a dangerously dumb group of people closely related to the anti vaccers and the flat earth conspiracists ...).

    So - wearing masks is good in all situations where there is an infection risk (but sort of pointless if there is not), but sure - wearing them using the appropriate fitting guide lines is still better ; Ah yes - and appropriate hygiene is always a good idea, no matter whether related to fitting masks, wearing masks, cooking your chicken or washing your hands ...
    ----
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