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Thread: Coronavirus

  1. #1161
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    What I read is that cotton masks protect the wearer not as good as medical masks against infection. Granted.

    However - it does not say anywhere that wearing a cotton mask does not provide any protection for the wearer nor does it say (as you claim) that it is worse for the wearer to wear a cotton mask than to wear no mask at all.

    I suggest you re-read and re-think your statement
    I may have skipped a couple of lines in my reasoning. So let me reprise what I have said in more detail.

    1/ An N95 mask has no hope of keeping out the Covid-19 virus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal-arti...2RQ1vyy3RKzwws

    Near the beginning of the article is the following quote

    "Preventing spread of this highly transmissible infection is challenging. The pandemic virus, SARS-CoV-2, replicates in the upper respiratory tract4 and the major routes of transmission are by larger particles (>5 microns; also referred to as droplets) and small particles (<5 microns; also referred to as aerosols) generated by breathing, talking and coughing."

    The article puts a size on 'droplets' and 'aerosols', which both potentially contain the much smaller virus strand. The numbers still don't add up though, when compared against the filter size in the masks. Droplets are described as having a minimum size only. Let's say we have a droplet that is ten times the minimum size, 50microns (or micrometres).

    If we look at point 2 under the section heading 'Science outside the COVID-19 context' in the reference below:

    https://www.health.govt.nz/system/fi...&ct=clnk&gl=nz

    "The pore size of masks ranged from 80 to 500μm (micrometres)"

    That means even the best masks won't be able to filter out a droplet that is ten times the minimum droplet size.
    However what I didn't know when I wrote that above post is that the Covid-19 virus spreads within atmospheric water vapour. So the situation is not as dire as I thought. Because masks are not keeping out (or in) the virus. They are keeping out or in the aerosol or droplet that contains the virus. And that may be considerably larger than the virus itself. That means 'most of the time' the N95 mask should work, although it is not fool proof.

    2/ Cotton as a material tends to absorb rather than repel water. So if you have Covid-19 and you are breathing through your cotton mask then that mask is absorbing your hydrated breath and hence concentrating Covid-19 virus particles and water vapour. That is fine, except at some point the virus concentration will get to a point where your normal breathing is expelling the absorbed virus particles in a concentrated way. That is because as the mask gets saturated, and in a well fitting mask the air that you breathe out has to go somewhere. So what started out as a 'breath filtering tool' has now turned into a 'virus concentration and distribution tool'.

    3/ I am unsure exactly what point the changeover point from filter to virus scattergun happens. No doubt it depends on the particular cotton mask design and the breath characteristics of the person wearing it. But if you consider the aerosol method of virus distribution to be a significant risk, you should consider a cotton mask as a vector for upping the odds on such a risk.

    4/ The whole process can work in reverse as well. After a time the tendency of cotton to absorb virus containing water vapour can concentrate the atmospheric virus to the point where the likelihood of infection by Covid-19 will increase.

    5/ All of points 1-4 are conjecture. However it is conjecture based on knowledge of materials, physics and biology. Such mechanisms and consequences should be considered when drawing up mask rules.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 28-11-2020 at 07:36 PM.
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  2. #1162
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    Good discussion Snoops
    Maybe the cotton mask is useful for reducing the social distancing required on the bus from coughs, sneezes and wheezes.

  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Are you sure about that? Here is what epidemiologist Janine Jagger has to say on the subject. It reinforces the point I have made before about the unregulated quality of masks deemed 'acceptable' for wearing by the wider NZ public.
    That compares a good mask with a bad mask.
    If the virus is around me and I wear the wrong mask I could catch it - if I don't wear a mask I could catch it.
    So, no real downside.

  4. #1164
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    To clarify one important point, which will no doubt cause even further debate, the rule is that masks or face coverings and mandatory on all flights to/from Auckland, and on public transport within or to/from Auckland.

    In practice I have seen many wearing scarfs over the face on planes/trains and buses. So while we argue the quality of masks, we're probably missing the bigger issue which is that even pieces of synthetic fibre used for garments have been deemed to be acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
    To clarify one important point, which will no doubt cause even further debate, the rule is that masks or face coverings and mandatory on all flights to/from Auckland, and on public transport within or to/from Auckland.

    In practice I have seen many wearing scarfs over the face on planes/trains and buses. So while we argue the quality of masks, we're probably missing the bigger issue which is that even pieces of synthetic fibre used for garments have been deemed to be acceptable.
    Which are still probably better than nothing at all.

  6. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    Which are still probably better than nothing at all.
    If the goal is to protect others, then we should be mandating the use of correct safety equipment to be used in an appropriate manner. Masks are readily available, and are more effective than face coverings. Hipkins is obviously happy with the way things are tracking so it's probably pointless debating the topic.
    Last edited by Zaphod; 01-12-2020 at 10:58 AM.

  7. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
    If the goal is to protect others, then we should be mandating the use of correct safety equipment to be used in an appropriate manner. Masks are readily available, and are more effective than face coverings. Hipkins is obviously happy with the way things are tracking so it's probably pointless debating the topic.
    As discussed, while readily available, some masks are better than others.
    Then comes the ussie of correct use - putting on and, particularly, taking off and how often they should be replaced.
    You can only go so far with people - at the moment you can't even get them to regularly use a simple app (even if not mandatory).
    At some point you lose the publics goodwill - the trick is to go far enough but not to far at any point in the cycle.

  8. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    As discussed, while readily available, some masks are better than others.
    Then comes the ussie of correct use - putting on and, particularly, taking off and how often they should be replaced.
    You can only go so far with people - at the moment you can't even get them to regularly use a simple app (even if not mandatory).
    At some point you lose the publics goodwill - the trick is to go far enough but not to far at any point in the cycle.
    As an employer, we have a legal and moral responsibility to ensure the health & safety of our employees. It doesn't matter whether people actively resist the measures we put in place, or ignore the training, we still hold a significant liability. We can't state a solution is good enough; we'll be held to account. Why not the government?

    Mandate the use of proper masks (not scarfs), provide training on their correct use, be consistent in the situations were they are required, decide whether to make the covid app compulsory or to roll out an easier method, and get on with it. Threatening to make the app compulsory if we don't obay the rules doesn't help, and is one of many examples where the government have actively reduced the goodwill of the public.

  9. #1169
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    This is what happens when the virus is out of control. NZ, we are blessed and must maintain vigilance.

  10. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    This is what happens when the virus is out of control. NZ, we are blessed and must maintain vigilance.
    True. The UK is desperate to get the vaccine that they have rapidly approved for use on their population. The trouble is that it is being produced in the EU, trade with which will be more difficult from January onwards. So as the borders are likely to become clogged up no matter what their future relationship with Europe, Johnson now has to make it a military operation to bring the vaccine in to the UK from Europe. Desperate measures!
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-hit-by-brexit

  11. #1171
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    https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...fbae233ad7712e

    So the virus started in Milan & Italy?

  12. #1172
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    MoH says we can’t get complacent in lead up to Christmas ....so keep washing hands, careful who you get close to and make sure do QR coding.

    Let the virus spread again and we’ll get summer lockdowns

    Don’t want that so be careful out there.
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.” - Benjamin Graham

  13. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    ..... So the virus started in Milan & Italy?
    It is well known that there are thousands of Chinese owned and run garment factories in and around Milan. Some are huge.

  14. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    MoH says we can’t get complacent in lead up to Christmas ....so keep washing hands, careful who you get close to and make sure do QR coding.

    Let the virus spread again and we’ll get summer lockdowns

    Don’t want that so be careful out there.
    The virus that isn't present? Quarantine needs not to get complacent. The rest of us should live our lives as normal.

  15. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    The virus that isn't present? Quarantine needs not to get complacent. The rest of us should live our lives as normal.
    Prob part of the getting the populus to live in fear campaign ...justifies why we can’t have travel bubbles etc
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  16. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Prob part of the getting the populus to live in fear campaign ...justifies why we can’t have travel bubbles etc
    In a nutshell!

  17. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    The virus that isn't present? Quarantine needs not to get complacent. The rest of us should live our lives as normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Prob part of the getting the populus to live in fear campaign ...justifies why we can’t have travel bubbles etc
    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    In a nutshell!
    So - how do you like it? Freedom to travel (requesting travel bubbles) or the freedom to roam and mingle in our country?

    Having your cake and eat it too?
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  18. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    So - how do you like it? Freedom to travel (requesting travel bubbles) or the freedom to roam and mingle in our country?

    Having your cake and eat it too?
    I refuse to live in fear of a virus that isn't present in the community. Maybe I'm strange in that way. When your government is ramping up fear against a "common enemy" be very suspicious as to their motivation. It won't be for our good, it will be for their own.

    Of course those two goods should be the "common good". The manipulation of the public around this issue is chilling.

  19. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    I refuse to live in fear of a virus that isn't present in the community. Maybe I'm strange in that way. When your government is ramping up fear against a "common enemy" be very suspicious as to their motivation. It won't be for our good, it will be for their own.

    Of course those two goods should be the "common good". The manipulation of the public around this issue is chilling.
    I agree - the lies, conspiracy theories, manipulation and the constant attempts to undermine our democratic institutions coming from the hard right mob are chilling.

    BTW - nobody requires you to live in fear. Are you saying that you are as well refusing to wear a safety belt in the car because you refuse to live in fear of a traffic accident? Emotional non sensical claptrap.
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  20. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    I agree - the lies, conspiracy theories, manipulation and the constant attempts to undermine our democratic institutions coming from the hard right mob are chilling.

    BTW - nobody requires you to live in fear. Are you saying that you are as well refusing to wear a safety belt in the car because you refuse to live in fear of a traffic accident? Emotional non sensical claptrap.
    Close your eyes to the government's manipulation and fear mongering if you wish BP. I'm not so easily led.

    As for the seatbelt analogy...it is a strawman. We all still drive cars even though we know 350-400 people will die annually in preventable crashes. We continue to drive because we evaluate the risk in a rational manner. The government could also throw a bottomless pit of money at road safety and bring that road toll down considerably. Gee, they could borrow 10s of billions and save hundreds of lives, but they choose not to, and we get on with life.

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